PDA

View Full Version : Require steam to play Deus Ex 3



gargar
6th Oct 2008, 17:07
i suggest this because i deeply care for the game and Deus EX in general. steam effectively prevent piracy and you can take the amazingly high sales of every single Valve game as the best proof for this. they are simply so much higher then any other pc game out there except for Sims the World of Warcraft and this is because of Steam. i know that you can generally find pirated Valve games in torrents and such but installing and playing them is a pain in the ass as can be seen by reading comments in those sites.

Valve won't mind, right?

consumers probably won't mind. as they are apparently buying games from Steam in the masses because of the advantages Steam offer. also, there's no need for the limited activation kind of DRM like EA use which is a popular excuse of pirates.

SubTonic20
6th Oct 2008, 17:08
It most likely will make its way onto Steam, but I highly doubt it will require it. Also, I'm not sure you're aware of it, but you double posted this thread.

gargar
6th Oct 2008, 17:17
i know, i wish i could delete it. something gone wrong with the firewall here in my work and it was gone out twice. no way to delete the other one wo i hope a mod delete it

WhatsHisFace
6th Oct 2008, 17:35
i suggest this because i deeply care for the game and Deus EX in general. steam effectively prevent piracy and you can take the amazingly high sales of every single Valve game as the best proof for this. they are simply so much higher then any other pc game out there except for Sims the World of Warcraft and this is because of Steam. i know that you can generally find pirated Valve games in torrents and such but installing and playing them is a pain in the ass as can be seen by reading comments in those sites.

Valve won't mind, right?

consumers probably won't mind. as they are apparently buying games from Steam in the masses because of the advantages Steam offer. also, there's no need for the limited activation kind of DRM like EA use which is a popular excuse of pirates.
If it shows that the PC market still buys games, I'm all for it.

But, hackers can get around Steam. Even Spore, a game famous for it's DRM, was leaked and pirated before it even released.

Unstoppable
6th Oct 2008, 17:42
there will always be people that steal and putting it on steam only means less sales so no.

CarloGervasi
6th Oct 2008, 17:56
I'm all for it. Steam kills piracy, adds value to the game, and doesn't treat the honest customer like a thief.

Unstoppable
6th Oct 2008, 18:02
yes but some people dont wanna download it it's big file prob like 6-15 gigs i predict.

CarloGervasi
6th Oct 2008, 18:05
They won't need to. Just like any other Steam carrying game, if you go to a brick and mortar store and buy the game, you'll install it from a disc, like any other game. All Steam does is phone home to a server every 2 weeks or so to make sure you have a legitimate copy. Which means more money, more likelihood of more Deus Ex games, and more importantly, more likelihood that they can focus on the PC again and not be forced to dumb everything dumb for "mass appeal" on the consoles. Besides, Steam comes with Xbox Live-esque stuff like unified friends list, auto patching, achievements, etc. It'd be a good move, especially with the 1st and 2nd games already there.

gargar
6th Oct 2008, 18:21
there will always be people that steal and putting it on steam only means less sales so no.

the other way around.

for instance, by 2006 Half Life 2 sold 4 million copies as can be seen in the game's wikipedia entry. who know how much today. the Orange box sold a few millions too. Left4Dead will sell a lot too. you can't denay it Valve games sell multiple million of copies on the PC even though they force you to install Steam. this is a fact no one can denay.

one of the things that makes Valve games so hard to crack is that Steam is embedded in the games themselves. it's not just an application to go on top of the CD you buy. you can't install the game without it and uninstalling Steam means to uninstall the game too.

also, by Steam only i mean that it should require Steam just like Valve games. it should of course still be released in stores.

imported_van_HellSing
6th Oct 2008, 18:34
I'm all for it. Steam kills piracy, adds value to the game, and doesn't treat the honest customer like a thief.

I'm all against it. Steam doesn't kill piracy, adds nothing to the game, treats the honest customer like crap, downloads patches forever, hangs, crashes, funks with your system, steals your girlfriend and kills your family.

I bought Half-Life 2 when it first came out, then after a period of TREMENDOUS PAIN with Steam decided to download a steamless pirated version, and lived happily ever after, never buying anything Valve again.

gargar
6th Oct 2008, 18:42
I'm all against it. Steam doesn't kill piracy, adds nothing to the game, treats the honest customer like crap, downloads patches forever, hangs, crashes, funks with your system, steals your girlfriend and kills your family.

I bought Half-Life 2 when it first came out, then after a period of TREMENDOUS PAIN with Steam decided to download a steamless pirated version, and lived happily ever after, never buying anything Valve again.

you are simply wrong. very simple. read my former post for the facts. you can't denay that Valve sales are a lot higher on the pc then companies releases. it's a simple fact.

WhatsHisFace
6th Oct 2008, 18:53
Steam sucked for a long time, but it has become much, much better.

imported_van_HellSing
6th Oct 2008, 18:55
Steam is actually short for "Steaming pile of turd". And no one and nothing will convince me otherwise, I'm going by my own experience. People like it? Well yeah, people like Halo and Britney Spears.

gargar
6th Oct 2008, 19:02
it's not 2004. Steam is a "bit" better right now. you base your ideas on it from your 2004 experience. it's 2008 now and soon 2009. get with the times.

MaxxQ1
6th Oct 2008, 20:18
A few months ago, I got interested in a little game called Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. I'd heard a lot of good things about it (from after the fan-patches) and wanted to give it a go. Being the honest person I am, I looked it up online and discovered that new-in-box copies were selling for over $100. Excuse me?

I took a chance and looked at Steam. They had it for $20, but I was worried that I wouldn't be able to play it with the fan fixes. Found out that it was a needless worry, as a simple command-line allowed me to install it/them. While playing the game, I had no problems at all with Steam, or anything else, and I was able to burn a copy for backup.

Point being that Steam may have been bad years ago, but it seems to be working as intended now, AND allowed me to get a game I wanted that is more or less unavailable otherwise.

BTW, I don't have to worry about DX on Steam, since I still have my original release disk and the GOTY disks.

kalit
6th Oct 2008, 20:39
While I don't mind steam, I would rather not have Steam required to play Deus Ex 3 (is that the final title by the way? doesn't seem right since it's a prequel). Is it better than any most other DRM stuff? Yes. But take a look at Sins of a Solar Empire. No DRM, yet sold really well. Steam does take up some resources to run, not a lot, but if your computer can barely run a game, then it is definitely noticable.

Valve games sell a lot, not because of Steam, but because Valve is one of the biggest PC developers. Just like how any game of Blizzard will sell a lot of copies. They probably sell a little more than they would if they had anything like install limits because of Steam, but that's not why they sell so much. Would they sell as many copies without any DRM? I would have to think probably not, but there's no way of knowing how much less (if any). I hope that Deus Ex 3 follow Stardock and don't have any DRM on it, but that's wishful thinking.

gargar
6th Oct 2008, 21:09
While I don't mind steam, I would rather not have Steam required to play Deus Ex 3 (is that the final title by the way? doesn't seem right since it's a prequel). Is it better than any most other DRM stuff? Yes. But take a look at Sins of a Solar Empire. No DRM, yet sold really well. Steam does take up some resources to run, not a lot, but if your computer can barely run a game, then it is definitely noticable.

Valve games sell a lot, not because of Steam, but because Valve is one of the biggest PC developers. Just like how any game of Blizzard will sell a lot of copies. They probably sell a little more than they would if they had anything like install limits because of Steam, but that's not why they sell so much. Would they sell as many copies without any DRM? I would have to think probably not, but there's no way of knowing how much less (if any). I hope that Deus Ex 3 follow Stardock and don't have any DRM on it, but that's wishful thinking.

Blizzard is a great example. however, Blizzard sell a lot becuse of the fact you need an original copy to play online. the name helps them a lot, yes. but online is the main reason i believe.

Half Life 2 and episoe 1 didn't have any online component yet they sold up and above any other single player only game on the pc i can think of. Sins of a Solar Empire is a fantastic game. however, it is low cost and selling 500,000 is probably more then enough for them. but selling this much copies from a modern FPS isn't enough. a million is probably not enough too. this is why i understand EA. but let's face it. limited activations sucks. and Valve got it so much better. you get community and auto updates. you can download your games whenever you want and wherever you are and play with friends. it's a giant plus for me for instance.

Dead-Eye
6th Oct 2008, 21:46
When steam first came out it was crap... now it's not so bad. Still a few bugs but nothing major like losing all your games or not being able to play when you won't to. 3ed party games work fine and I have been unable to find mods that don't work with steam copys of games yet... (Excluding Deus Ex but there is a hack around that.)

I would probably get a stand alone copy of Deus Ex when it come out and get it off steam when it costs $20 so that way I will always have a digital copy of it.

This is really a non-issue for me because if they make a box copy that uses steam it just saves me one step that I will maybe make later. Of course I might get a copy for the Xbox 360 as well just because I am a die hard fan boy.

minus0ne
6th Oct 2008, 23:00
I'm all for an additional Steam release of DX3, but not as a replacement of a boxed version.

I want my DX3 to be boxed and playable without internet connection, DRM, activation or any of that crap. I still routinely install Deus Ex off the original CD (though I got the GOTY version in addition a couple of years ago to stop the hassle with patches), and I wouldn't like having to call Eidos each time I install, explain to them why I'm re-installing, or why I upgraded my PC in the mean time :nut:

I sincerely hope Eidos is walking an entirely different path than EA on this issue, but I have no issues with Steam, which works pretty good right now. Though let's not get ahead of ourselves and make it a Steam-eclusive.

Kaze103
6th Oct 2008, 23:30
I'm all for an additional Steam release of DX3, but not as a replacement of a boxed version.

I want my DX3 to be boxed and playable without internet connection, DRM, activation or any of that crap. I still routinely install Deus Ex off the original CD (though I got the GOTY version in addition a couple of years ago to stop the hassle with patches), and I wouldn't like having to call Eidos each time I install, explain to them why I'm re-installing, or why I upgraded my PC in the mean time :nut:

+1

I fully disagree with securom, steam protection, and all this sort of thing. One of the biggest contributing factors to the growth of piracy, is the growth in game protection. Never mind the fact that no matter how well it is protected, there is no game out there that wasn't on certain sites days after, or even before their official release. Not recently anyway.

Just make the game and release it so people can buy it and play it, simply and easily.

piippo
6th Oct 2008, 23:40
The only thing that bothers me, is the phrasing. "Require", well Steam is a good platform yes. But it has it's downsides too.

One of them being the fact that the game is tied to your account - meaning that you are unable to resell the game forward.

SteamWorks could be in-the-between solution, and the positives have already been said in this thread. http://steampowered.com/steamworks/

Publishing a game on Steam is a totally different thing, so it should be separated what the discussion here is about.

Romeo
6th Oct 2008, 23:44
I don't know if anyone here reads Edge, but they had a list of the top ten most famous DRMs. Steam was the highest rated "good" DRM protection, and third overall.

Mr. Perfect
7th Oct 2008, 02:42
I'm all for an additional Steam release of DX3, but not as a replacement of a boxed version.

I want my DX3 to be boxed and playable without internet connection, DRM, activation or any of that crap. I still routinely install Deus Ex off the original CD (though I got the GOTY version in addition a couple of years ago to stop the hassle with patches), and I wouldn't like having to call Eidos each time I install, explain to them why I'm re-installing, or why I upgraded my PC in the mean time :nut:
+1

I fully disagree with securom, steam protection, and all this sort of thing. One of the biggest contributing factors to the growth of piracy, is the growth in game protection. Never mind the fact that no matter how well it is protected, there is no game out there that wasn't on certain sites days after, or even before their official release. Not recently anyway.

Just make the game and release it so people can buy it and play it, simply and easily.

Quoted the qoute along with the origonally qouted qoute for truth! QTQAWTOQQFT? Sounds sexy. Remember, you heard it here first! :D

Seriously though, heavy DRM just puts up the hackles on legitimate customers. Take Spore for example. The game has been in a whirlwind of negative PR ever since the DRM came to light, and EA is still back pedaling to regain some face. And has the SecureRom helped stop pirates? Hardly. Spore was available for download on BitTorent before it was released for sale. There's no way of knowing which pirates, if any, would have bought a legitimate copy if there was no DRM, but it may have actually increased pirating (http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spore-drm-piracy-tech-security-cx_ag_mji_0912spore.html).

Romeo
7th Oct 2008, 02:52
I severely doubt it. At least with DRM, you limit pirates to those who are capable of hacking it, and delay it so that others may have to wait. Beyond this, most hacked games are unusable on the internet. You take away DRM, and suddenly Joe-nobody can upload to everyone, with no effort, and everyone could play it like it was their own.

3nails4you
7th Oct 2008, 03:02
Great thing about Steam is, though, you can play the games on any systems in the future due to updates! :D

I bought DX1 when it came it, and it wasn't compatible with my newer 64-bit system. Steam, however, saved the day, and I CERTAINLY didn't mind the 10 bucks. In the future when super-new systems come out, it would be great to be able to play DX3 in like 2016 :D.

DXeXodus
7th Oct 2008, 04:26
I don't mind the game being released via steam. However, I would much prefer a boxed copy of my Deus Ex 3 game. I don't have an internet connection at home so steam is not an option for me.

Besides, what is better than having a beautiful copy of your favorite game in your hands and not somewhere on your hard drive or burned onto a blank disk?

Spiffmeister
7th Oct 2008, 04:30
I would have to say that having DX3 available on steam would be a good idea, but having it as a requirement is probably a bit too far. Personally I don't like steam that much (even though it starts with my computer) it's a good way to keep games upto date, but requiring it to launch games just makes it more of a pain.

Stick with no steam required but make available on steam and you can't go wrong.

CarloGervasi
7th Oct 2008, 04:54
I'm all against it. Steam doesn't kill piracy, adds nothing to the game, treats the honest customer like crap, downloads patches forever, hangs, crashes, funks with your system, steals your girlfriend and kills your family.

I bought Half-Life 2 when it first came out, then after a period of TREMENDOUS PAIN with Steam decided to download a steamless pirated version, and lived happily ever after, never buying anything Valve again.

You should probably use it again. It's grown up a lot since 2004. It has 15 million users for a reason. It does kill piracy, I don't know how you could disagree, unless you were just going down a list and childishly disagreeing with everything I said with little to no reason. You can't crack something that's phoning home every two weeks. It'd be like trying to crack an MMO. It adds achievements and a unified friends list to the game, which may appear to be nothing to the anti-social gamer, but to most of us, is pretty nice. It treats the honest customer pretty well IMO, letting me install the game wherever I want, however many times I want, accessing it whenever I want, without constant disc checks slowing everything down, etc.

Really, I think 2004's activation server failures left a bad taste in people's mouths, and here in 2008, they're still judging Steam by what happened....four years ago. It's nuts.

CarloGervasi
7th Oct 2008, 04:57
I don't mind the game being released via steam. However, I would much prefer a boxed copy of my Deus Ex 3 game. I don't have an internet connection at home so steam is not an option for me.

Besides, what is better than having a beautiful copy of your favorite game in your hands and not somewhere on your hard drive or burned onto a blank disk?
While not having an internet connection could kill you (you can play in offline mode, but only after Steam has phoned home at least once to make sure your copy is legit), you would still be able to have the physical boxed copy with Steam. I walked in to an EB back in 2004, bought Half Life 2, installed it off the discs, Steam installed with it, and that was that. Just like something that requires you to enter a CD key, only it actually works, and doesn't require you to input anything.

gargar
7th Oct 2008, 09:07
as CarloGervasi have said, having Steam requiered doesn't mean you won't have boxed version of the game. all of Valve games have one after all.

about phoning home - you only need to do it once with Steam. after that you can play in offline mode.

about resell - yes, there is none in Steam. but how many people actually sell their used games these days? maybe a lot. but i don't believe so. a quick look at Ebay doesn't produce much results. you can sell your Steam account if you want but that's not a solution i guess.

think of the +sides for requiring Steam. sales WILL be higher. and this is something we all want.

AsukaoYl
7th Oct 2008, 15:57
Being able to buy a boxed copy and registering it on steam would be GOLD! Only a few games have had that option. I dont see it happening but you never know.

Necros
7th Oct 2008, 16:19
Pirates can crack games protected with Steam too, it won't stop them. And limiting the game to only this system would be a mistake IMHO.
DRM is only a good thing if it's not a bigger problem for the users than the pirates.

CarloGervasi
7th Oct 2008, 18:19
Pirates can crack games protected with Steam too, it won't stop them. And limiting the game to only this system would be a mistake IMHO.
DRM is only a good thing if it's not a bigger problem for the users than the pirates.
They can crack games that are released on Steam and then also released without it, because the one released without it thats using SecuROM or some other crap is a pretty easy target. Stuff with Steam integrated into the game that doesn't have a Steam-less version, no, they can't crack.

piippo
7th Oct 2008, 18:25
I don't mind the game being released via steam. However, I would much prefer a boxed copy of my Deus Ex 3 game. I don't have an internet connection at home so steam is not an option for me.

Besides, what is better than having a beautiful copy of your favorite game in your hands and not somewhere on your hard drive or burned onto a blank disk?

Those are good reasons, but I can't see them as exclusionary. That it would be either on Steam or as boxed copy. For me, the boxed copy is the only way, but to incorporate the stuff that Steam(Works) has to offer on DRM side is good. It's not that intrusive. I hope that the game doesn't have media-check, rather some sort of cdkey and online authentication. SteamWorks offers such features.

Romeo
7th Oct 2008, 20:18
I have a question for DRM protection:

Now this wouldn't work with people who don't have interwebz connektionz (Sorry DXeXodus), but couldn't the publisher simply make a list of the codes they've produced, and then print the code in the cover of the handbook? This way, the key-gen algorithms wouldn't work (As the list could simply be randomized, and with enough digits, it would be nearly impossible to guess) and people would have to physically purchase the game, go home, and submit their number to the publisher (which would then mark that code as "used"). The CD could be used to install on three computers (more than enough for a sensible person) at one time. If you buy a new computer, remove the game from your old one to put it on your new one.

I've probably over-looked several necessary points, but that's just my DRM-idea. =)

gargar
7th Oct 2008, 21:09
Romeo, this is exactly how it works today. to my knowledge most pirated copies just come with the cdkey for that certain copy.

MaxxQ1
7th Oct 2008, 21:36
I have a question for DRM protection:

Now this wouldn't work with people who don't have interwebz connektionz (Sorry DXeXodus), but couldn't the publisher simply make a list of the codes they've produced, and then print the code in the cover of the handbook? This way, the key-gen algorithms wouldn't work (As the list could simply be randomized, and with enough digits, it would be nearly impossible to guess) and people would have to physically purchase the game, go home, and submit their number to the publisher (which would then mark that code as "used"). The CD could be used to install on three computers (more than enough for a sensible person) at one time. If you buy a new computer, remove the game from your old one to put it on your new one.

I've probably over-looked several necessary points, but that's just my DRM-idea. =)

The problem with the three-comp limit is that for people like me who upgrade every year or two would be out the ability to play after a couple upgrades. I bought DX the day it came out, and have installed it more than a dozen times since then due to upgrades, replacement hard drives, reformat and reinstall Windows, and so on. If this form of DRM had existed then, I wouldn't have been able to play DX past the second year after I bought it.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution to the DRM problem that treats legitimate customers more like criminals, and does nothing to stop the true criminals. The problem is that DRM is just code, and code can be cracked, no matter how "secure" you make it.

The software companies need to realize piracy is going to be pretty much a permanent part of the landscape, and they should just deal with it. I know quite a few people who have pirated games precisely BECAUSE of DRM. Those are permanently lost sales due to the draconian measures these companies have used to "protect" their IP - measures that DON'T work. Spore was hacked a week before release, and the dev/publisher should request a full refund from SecuRom for that.*

*This was paraphrased from the latest (IOW, got it in the mail today) issue of PC Gamer, in Kristen Salvatore's editorial.

Romeo
7th Oct 2008, 21:53
I said one would have the option to transfer from an older computer to a new one, specifically for that kind of scenario. =D

MaxxQ1
7th Oct 2008, 22:10
I said one would have the option to transfer from an older computer to a new one, specifically for that kind of scenario. =D

I understand that. The problem is that even WindowsXP at one point decided I had a new comp when all I did was get a new vidcard and more RAM. Going by that standard, since 2000, I've had about 6 "new" computers, and this year, when I get my tax return, I will have a seventh, since I plan on doing a MAJOR upgrade.

gargar
7th Oct 2008, 22:14
Romeo, Bioshock done exactly what you suggested. there was a tool which removed the game's license from a computer in case you needed more installations. Crytek will release the same tool for Crysis Warhead which suffer from the same drm. as MaxxQ1 said, drm is just a code and code can be cracked. pirates simply remove the whole drm from the game altogether.

Steam ain't like that. whoever say this doesn't undertsand how Steam works. Valve integrate Steam into the game's code itself. games from other publishers just use Steam to deliver the game to you but the game was still built with no Steam in mind and you can still buy it from other sources without Steam. but you can't buy, or play Valve games without Steam. they can't be installed or played without it. this is why Valve games are so pain in the ass to pirate and why their sales are so high.

Romeo
7th Oct 2008, 22:56
I understand that. The problem is that even WindowsXP at one point decided I had a new comp when all I did was get a new vidcard and more RAM. Going by that standard, since 2000, I've had about 6 "new" computers, and this year, when I get my tax return, I will have a seventh, since I plan on doing a MAJOR upgrade.
Didn't know that.

Romeo, Bioshock done exactly what you suggested. there was a tool which removed the game's license from a computer in case you needed more installations. Crytek will release the same tool for Crysis Warhead which suffer from the same drm. as MaxxQ1 said, drm is just a code and code can be cracked. pirates simply remove the whole drm from the game altogether.

Steam ain't like that. whoever say this doesn't undertsand how Steam works. Valve integrate Steam into the game's code itself. games from other publishers just use Steam to deliver the game to you but the game was still built with no Steam in mind and you can still buy it from other sources without Steam. but you can't buy, or play Valve games without Steam. they can't be installed or played without it. this is why Valve games are so pain in the ass to pirate and why their sales are so high.
Didn't know that either. lol

~Psychotic~
8th Oct 2008, 09:00
NO. DRM CAN GO TO HELL.

I'm all for protecting copyrights and crap but seriously. I DO NOT WANT TO GO ONLINE EVERYTIME I WANT TO PLAY A DAMN GAME. Especially if I only wanna play it for an hour or so. It's friggin pointless, I hated playing HL2/Portal cause I had to be online (offline mode screwed up all the time).

It makes the game seem more like a chore to play then a game. Oh and Eidos, I ask one thing. Don't pull an EA and make the game only allow a maximum of 5 installations.

bsel
8th Oct 2008, 09:58
Steam kills privacy.


Great thing about Steam is, though, you can play the games on any systems in the future due to updates! :D
I don't think they will port all those games available on steam to the new architectures of the future.
If there would be a GNU/Linux Version of steam tomorrow none of the win games would run out of the box, and I think they only would port some of the engines/games to the new arch.

Bloodwolf806
8th Oct 2008, 16:32
Well, Eidos could still make alot of money off PS3 and 360 sales, but restricting DX3 PC to digital download only will probably signifigantly hurt PC sales.

v.dog
9th Oct 2008, 22:15
I'm all against it. Steam doesn't kill piracy, adds nothing to the game, treats the honest customer like crap, downloads patches forever, hangs, crashes, funks with your system, steals your girlfriend and kills your family.I guess you never played Team Fortress 2, then? Valve are constantly pushing out patches, content updates (adding new weapons, maps, and gameplay styles), and can quickly respond id a weapon is too under or overpowered. Best of all, when you go online, you know that your version is patched already to match the servers.

Steam also offers community through groups and IM, so you can see when your friends are online, and what game they are playing, allowing you to quickly join in.

Like the others have said, it's not 2004 anymore. Things have changed a lot since then. It no longer 'funks your system', offline mode actually works (online once to activate, then play offline all you want), you don't need the DVD in the drive to play the games.

Patching can still take a while, tho', if you've got a slow connection, but there's not a lot they can do about that.
I fully disagree with securom, steam protection, and all this sort of thing. One of the biggest contributing factors to the growth of piracy, is the growth in game protection. Never mind the fact that no matter how well it is protected, there is no game out there that wasn't on certain sites days after, or even before their official release. Not recently anyway.

Just make the game and release it so people can buy it and play it, simply and easily.The problem is disruptive DRM; that which hurts legitimate customers by removing their rights (both real and perceived) and making them jump through hoops, when the pirated version doesn't.

I've been saying for years that the best way to stop piracy is to realise that the pirates are offering your products for free; to charge people money and expect people to by your games, you've got to give them something better. To paraphrase Necros, "DRM is only a good thing if it's better for the users than the pirates."

Steam does this (see above).
I DO NOT WANT TO GO ONLINE EVERYTIME I WANT TO PLAY A DAMN GAME. Especially if I only wanna play it for an hour or so. It's friggin pointless, I hated playing HL2/Portal cause I had to be online (offline mode screwed up all the time).

It makes the game seem more like a chore to play then a game. I think they fixed this recently.
Besides, what is better than having a beautiful copy of your favorite game in your hands and not somewhere on your hard drive or burned onto a blank disk?I used to think this too, but it's the content of the game that's important, not the media on which it is stored.

The fact that games here are expensive to buy via retail here was ultimately what changed my mind. :)

~Psychotic~
9th Oct 2008, 22:56
v.dog, I can do all that with Xfire (www.xfire.com). No, it doesn't look as visually pleasant but it doesn't lag my PC like a man on drugs who sets himself on fire (ignore the "analogy", I'm being random).

Steam doesn't bring out updates/patches to games they don't own. How can they? They'd have to modify the games code to do that and if it doesn't belong to Valve then it would be ILLEGAL (with exception to games which have SDKs).

They update their own games fine, but I've never seen them update the game of another company before.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Oct 2008, 23:05
Well, steam might be better now than it was in 2004, but that won't bring back my family. :(

v.dog
10th Oct 2008, 00:15
v.dog, I can do all that with Xfire (www.xfire.com). No, it doesn't look as visually pleasant but it doesn't lag my PC like a man on drugs who sets himself on fire (ignore the "analogy", I'm being random).that provides the community side, but does it provide the auto-patches/new content?

Regardless, the specifics were never really my point. What I saying was that as a DRM system, Steam gives more to the customers than it takes, adding something of value to the game that the pirates can't provide. This increases the incentive for people to buy it- they'd pay more money, but get a better product.
Steam doesn't bring out updates/patches to games they don't own. How can they? They'd have to modify the games code to do that and if it doesn't belong to Valve then it would be ILLEGAL (with exception to games which have SDKs).

They update their own games fine, but I've never seen them update the game of another company before.Yes, you're right in that. However, Valve has released an SDK for 3rd Party publishers/developers (http://steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php) that allows them to use Steam to apply their own updates.

DXeXodus
10th Oct 2008, 04:28
I used to think this too, but it's the content of the game that's important, not the media on which it is stored.

The fact that games here are expensive to buy via retail here was ultimately what changed my mind. :)

I am very fond of my gaming collection which sits within a bookcase next to my PC. I do not want to rather have spindle of backed up steam games.

AsukaoYl
10th Oct 2008, 13:19
Steam is the best thing that happened to Gamers since GFX Cards.

-Fast UNIVERSAL updates.
-All your games on 1 central spot.
-Bring your games anywhere without any cds/cdkeys or bull****. Just log in and play.
-Faster content delivery
-Valve can involve the customer with testing
-Steam Community = myspace for gamers
-The return of old school games that work on newer systems

It never crashes so i don't know what your talking about, this is 2004 anymore.

And yes i like owning physical copies of my games as well. Which is why in a ideal world i would be able to register my copy of Deus Ex on steam, like all Valve games. Only other games that you where able to do this with is Prey and SIN-Episodes

flib
10th Oct 2008, 15:50
I'm gonna go ahead and lay this out for all of you little sheep:

When you "buy" a game from Steam, you do not own it.

When you buy a game from Steam, you aren't buying it, you're renting it.
It's like you're borrowing it from the library; you can take it out for as long as you want, but you have to keep bringing it back in and renewing it, and they can take it back.
Valve can take away your game at any time for any reason. They don't even have to say that you violated the agreement. There is nothing in the agreement saying that they can't just take away everything.
All of that money you spent? Oh well.

~Psychotic~
10th Oct 2008, 15:51
I am very fond of my gaming collection which sits within a bookcase next to my PC. I do not want to rather have spindle of backed up steam games.

I'm quite fond of my collection as well, to be honest. And I like the fact I don't have to be online to play the games (some places I go don't have internet, my grandmothers for example, or on a shuttle bus :P, btw obviously I have a laptop to anyone going "WTF" right about now).

Oh and flib, yeah forgot about that little "catch." Yeah, that's the major one. I can't see how they can get away with it, especially with stuff you can buy (like The Orange Box, you don't have to download that, I have my CD version, do you have yours?). And you can't exactly make an appeal, an appeal to what? THEY DON'T BLOODY TELL YOU.

JimBowen
10th Oct 2008, 16:15
Well said, flib.

Psychotic: The reason they can get away with it is because it's not covered by any kind of law.
In the UK for example, anything you buy, including games off the shelf, are covered by the Sale of Goods act, which ensures that when you buy something, you get a complete, fit-for-purpose product, that does what it says it does.
Selling someone a car, as if it were a real one, but giving them an I.O.U slip instead is illegal, for example. It is fraud.

If you buy a game from steam, you are not covered by the sale of goods act. You are instead covered by contract law, which merely says that valve must do as they said they would in your agreement with them.
In this case, it really is like getting an I.O.U. for a car. "This ticket entitles you to use a car whenever you like, until we decide otherwise." It is not the same as an actual car. :)

This is all nice and clear. What isn't clear is what happens when you buy an off-the-shelf game with DRM, for example Spore or a boxed version of some Valve game. That's a bit of a grey-area really.. IMO it is technically illegal, as the agreement isn't made clear when you buy it (this is why you are legally entitled to a refund if you decline the EULA, fyi) but then again, I Am Not A Lawyer.

~ Jim

Red
10th Oct 2008, 17:16
I'm gonna go ahead and lay this out for all of you little sheep:

Listen up, sheep:

The games can be backed up. And the games can be run offline. So, yeah, you can have every single game you purchased right on your disk/dvd/cds and play it as much as you want.

gargar
10th Oct 2008, 17:36
I'm gonna go ahead and lay this out for all of you little sheep:

When you "buy" a game from Steam, you do not own it.

When you buy a game from Steam, you aren't buying it, you're renting it.
It's like you're borrowing it from the library; you can take it out for as long as you want, but you have to keep bringing it back in and renewing it, and they can take it back.
Valve can take away your game at any time for any reason. They don't even have to say that you violated the agreement. There is nothing in the agreement saying that they can't just take away everything.
All of that money you spent? Oh well.

i don't like it when people aren't saying the truth or repeat said misinformation. i have read the whole Steam EULA few times before and they are more user friendly then just about any other publisher out there. there is nothing on what you're saying. there is, however, a line under the cheating section which say this

"Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so."

however, Valve will NOT forbid you from accessing single player games or servers with no VAC system. while i can't link directly to the topic Valve posted in steam forums because i am at work you can look for it in the VAC forum in steam. the first topic in the forums is called "Read This If You Have Been Banned. Also if you're looking for other VAC information" and it says this:

You can still play single-player games or on non-secure servers through Steam (you can filter the server list in Steam to show "Insecure Servers" only (from the main Steam menu -> Servers -> Anti-Cheat -> "Insecure Only").

there is nothing on "Valve can take your games whenever they want" anywhere in the forums or in the EULA and i invite you to prove me otherwise. also, you won't find a single proof of something like that ever happened. all those gamers who got banned and said they lost games simply lost their ability to play in VAC enabled servers. no one. ever. lost a single game from his Steam account. instead of calling people sheeps i remind you that Valve is just about the only company who invested time and money to fit their old games to modern systems. they ARE better then other publishers/developers out there.

StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 18:16
I'm gonna go ahead and lay this out for all of you little sheep:

When you "buy" a game from Steam, you do not own it.

When you buy a game from Steam, you aren't buying it, you're renting it.
It's like you're borrowing it from the library; you can take it out for as long as you want, but you have to keep bringing it back in and renewing it, and they can take it back.
Valve can take away your game at any time for any reason. They don't even have to say that you violated the agreement. There is nothing in the agreement saying that they can't just take away everything.
All of that money you spent? Oh well.

And when have Valve ever done that? Why would they destroy their almost universally positive reputation by disabling peoples ability to access a game? Oh wait. That's right. They wouldn't. The only people I know who've had their accounts banned are those using hacks or anything illigitimate.

In the incredibly unlikely event Valve ever goes out of business, they have said time and time again, fixes will be released. If you're stupid enough not to back up your copy of it, then, well, Valve aren't there to panda to idiots.

-----

Anyway. I perhaps don't agree with totally restricting sales to Steam - but I certainly support it as an option. Steam provides an excellent service. It's easily the best online distribution and server connectivity system in the industry, and I fully support it.

AsukaoYl
10th Oct 2008, 23:51
I'm gonna go ahead and lay this out for all of you little sheep:

When you "buy" a game from Steam, you do not own it.

When you buy a game from Steam, you aren't buying it, you're renting it.
It's like you're borrowing it from the library; you can take it out for as long as you want, but you have to keep bringing it back in and renewing it, and they can take it back.
Valve can take away your game at any time for any reason. They don't even have to say that you violated the agreement. There is nothing in the agreement saying that they can't just take away everything.
All of that money you spent? Oh well.Correction! I don't know what i'm talking about!

We still have Steam haters that don't know ****. Wow, thought 15mil+ and the countless benefits would shut you people up.

piippo
11th Oct 2008, 00:34
Again, if you go the route of having:

Boxed version with SteamWorks
Digitalcopy on Steam

There is no problem, I certainly believe that SteamWorks is a good DRM measure.

Here are the three things that suck with Steam.

1) You don't own your games, if you move to another country, your games might not work. This has happened to people.
2) You can't resell your games, but that's what publishers like :rolleyes:
3) Territory control(only when used wrong - Call of Duty 4 pricing/Ubisoft avaibility), publishers demanded, Steam delivered.

The plus sides are that it's a great platform, it has matured from the times it was bug ridden unstable and slow. I remember those times as I was installed Steam when it was released. Community features, autoupdates, good DRM and Anti-Cheat(well, only matters if game has MP).

v.dog
11th Oct 2008, 01:16
Let's chill for a moment, lest this become a full-blown flame war. piippo got in before I did

Steam, as with any other system, has its pros and cons. These need to be weighed objectively and clearly before making a statement saying whether it's good or not. Even then, we may have to agree to disagree as some people will give more weighting to certain points than others.

Pros:
+ Effective anti-piracy*
+ Anti-Cheat (VAC) *?
+ Auto patching*
+ Free content (including mods*)
+ Integrated Store
+ Play your games on any PC running Steam (with your own settings- coming soon)
+ Community groups/chat
+ Play offline
+ Back up games to disk/HDD
+ One time authentication (once a game is in your account, it's yours)
+ Old games can be put on new PCs

Cons:
- Games can be region locked
- Privacy (tracking gameplay stats)
- What if Valve fails?
- Some performance hit on low end machines (Steam as a process)
- Patching can take a while on slow connections
- Need to be online to activate the games
- Can't resell unwanted games

*Using Steamworks

CarloGervasi
11th Oct 2008, 01:30
I don't get the privacy issue with some people. I mean, there's a big difference between "Valve knows what you play while on Steam" and "Valve watches you pee". I think that gets blown a little out of proportion.

AsukaoYl
11th Oct 2008, 01:44
I don't get the privacy issue with some people. I mean, there's a big difference between "Valve knows what you play while on Steam" and "Valve watches you pee". I think that gets blown a little out of proportion.

100% Agreed, What they track improves your experence as a gamer in many ways.

- Optimizing games to best fit most systems
- Sharing stats with friends
- Tracking gameplay stats
- Tracking game stats to improve on exploits and bugs
- Tracking data for achievements.

v.dog
11th Oct 2008, 02:36
Hence why I said different people will give it a different weighting.

JimBowen
12th Oct 2008, 01:20
The main gripe I have with Steam, as with other forms of DRM, is that Valve is judge, jury and executioner on all matters. If they want to, then can decide to give you absolutely nothing in return for whatever you have paid them, and no law prevents it. This also may be intentional or accidental.
If you download a game from steam, the only party other than you that knows you have paid for it, and used it within the agreed terms, is Valve.
There is no independent body to check that Valve are conforming to their side of the agreement, that they are only banning real cheaters, or that there has been no technical mishap causing you to be incorrectly flagged as a cheater or warezer.

Yes, in it's current form, Steam has not knowingly blocked many legitimate users (although many of these cases we may not know, due to Valve's deliberate censorship of anything anti-steam, on it's own boards or if it can get away with it, elsewhere.) but it is still a slippery slope. A bit like entrusting Google to keep track of all your worldly possessions, and nullify them at its will.

Furthermore, Steam, and all other DRM, really does absolutely nothing to curb piracy. Any game on steam you will find a cracked version on BitTorrent, LimeWire, gnutella, rapidshare, etc. Anything that can be played can be cracked, fundamentally. And once it has been cracked, it can be distributed anywhere. It is pointless trying to prevent this.
What game designers need to aspire to IMO, is creating a service that is easier than pirating, e.g a DRM-free download service with a reasonable price.
Instead of treating your customers like criminals, treat them like customers. Maybe you will be rewarded.

Forcing legitimate customers to jump through hoops in order to be recognised as non-criminals, just invites even more piracy, since the cracked game ends up working where the legitimate game does not.

piippo
12th Oct 2008, 03:20
v.dog: SteamWorks has VAC too, all the features Steam has - except the digital shop/retailsystem.

About the negatives, I don't see the Steam process as too system heavy - if it is, you are not likely to run any modern games even without Steam. It's not that resource heavy.

The biggest issue I missed is what you mentioned: "What if Valve fails?" - well, that's a valid concern. Steam and Valve aren't two seperate instances, so that's a problem. I wouldn't see that as short term issue though, considering how strong Valve is now, and will be for the few next years - the timeframe we can more easily evaluate.

JimBowen: in the past when VAC was first introduced, it might have caused false positives - today, I doubt it. People can go great lengths to say are innocent, even if they aren't. It's not like it would be that common, and if you really have a basis for your case, as some have had, you can take it to Valve - they see what triggered VAC, since it's not immidiate but on delay. So cheaters can't test too easily what get's flagged and what doesn't. I haven't heard of single such event from my buddies, or online.

Knowingly, most of the cases are 100% proven to be cheaters, the rest have been unbanned. So few in numbers are the falsepositives that it isn't an issue. For example, PunkBuster has proven to be less reliable system.

Considering Deus Ex 3 isn't multiplayer enable/oriented this isn't an issue here.

CarloGervasi
12th Oct 2008, 04:01
I wish people would realize the difference between "game released at retail without Steam, and then subsequently released onto Steam gets cracked" and "game released with Steam integrated into it gets cracked". One happens, the other doesn't.

-Nomad-
12th Oct 2008, 04:10
Requiring Steam is a silly idea and I really don't think it should even be considered. However, IMO it would be just as silly not to offer the game on steam and allow steam integration. Which considering that Eidos offers several games on steam (such as Deus Ex) I'm sure the latter will be an option.

Also, I haven't seen anyone (I tried to read all of the posts) point out the advertising pros steam brings. I work and go to school constantly and I have little time to peruse every new game coming out (Deus Ex is obviously an exception). But, when I get home and sign on to steam I am welcomed with news regarding new and old games that I have never heard of.

Out of curiosity I wonder how much it cost a company to offer a game through steam?...hmm maybe they get a percentage of the sale? :scratch:

piippo
12th Oct 2008, 05:46
...Out of curiosity I wonder how much it cost a company to offer a game through steam?...hmm maybe they get a percentage of the sale? :scratch:

Trade secrets, but I'd assume it something like that, or if it's a bigger publisher it might be a 1 time payment.

Red
12th Oct 2008, 10:58
The main gripe I have with Steam, as with other forms of DRM, is that Valve is judge, jury and executioner on all matters. If they want to, then can decide to give you absolutely nothing in return for whatever you have paid them, and no law prevents it. This also may be intentional or accidental.
If you download a game from steam, the only party other than you that knows you have paid for it, and used it within the agreed terms, is Valve.
There is no independent body to check that Valve are conforming to their side of the agreement, that they are only banning real cheaters, or that there has been no technical mishap causing you to be incorrectly flagged as a cheater or warezer.

1.) Read their EULA. Yes, entire EULA, word for word. And after that, the privacy policy. Then post here.

2.) I've received a receipt for every single purchase with an assurance that if something goes wrong I'd get proper product support. In worst case scenario, my money would be refunded.

CarloGervasi
12th Oct 2008, 17:12
You're paying via credit/debit only on Steam, so yeah, you do have an independent record of your purchase, unless you're with a bank that you seriously believe is in cohoots with Valve to steal your stuff for no reason.

gargar
12th Oct 2008, 17:24
Furthermore, Steam, and all other DRM, really does absolutely nothing to curb piracy. Any game on steam you will find a cracked version on BitTorrent, LimeWire, gnutella, rapidshare, etc. Anything that can be played can be cracked, fundamentally. And once it has been cracked, it can be distributed anywhere. It is pointless trying to prevent this.
What game designers need to aspire to IMO, is creating a service that is easier than pirating, e.g a DRM-free download service with a reasonable price.
Instead of treating your customers like criminals, treat them like customers. Maybe you will be rewarded.

Forcing legitimate customers to jump through hoops in order to be recognised as non-criminals, just invites even more piracy, since the cracked game ends up working where the legitimate game does not.

i DO NOT agree with you on this. since i am sure you know where to find pirated games for download i suggest you to try and download one of Valve recent games (HL2 and above). it is not just download the game with a cracked exe. it really is a pain in the ass to get them working because Steam is so integrated to the game code. try it. i am sure many people just gave up in the middle and just bought the game instead. this is why Valve sales are so darn high. you can't ignore this.

face the reality, no fps game/series in the last decade sold so many copies on the PC alone as HL2 and it's episodes does. nothing even came close. the only reason is because it is so hard to crack them. Eidos will be smart to integrate DX3 into steam with both retail and digital distribution versions.

StalinsGhost
12th Oct 2008, 19:20
i DO NOT agree with you on this. since i am sure you know where to find pirated games for download i suggest you to try and download one of Valve recent games (HL2 and above). it is not just download the game with a cracked exe. it really is a pain in the ass to get them working because Steam is so integrated to the game code. try it. i am sure many people just gave up in the middle and just bought the game instead. this is why Valve sales are so darn high. you can't ignore this.

face the reality, no fps game/series in the last decade sold so many copies on the PC alone as HL2 and it's episodes does. nothing even came close. the only reason is because it is so hard to crack them. Eidos will be smart to integrate DX3 into steam with both retail and digital distribution versions.

Yup, agreed with this.

Most importantly though, Steam activated games totally and utterly eliminate zero day piracy - by and large what is considered the biggest hit these days, since it's really early sales that define a game's commercial success. The simple fact is, using Steam - whether buying off Steam Store or via retail - is the first and only place you can get Valve's games until the pirates have cracked it because they can't do **** with the files until Valve distribute the .exe. Compared to say Fallout 3 on the 360 which has already hit the net via torrents 3 weeks in advance of its release. Essentially here, the pirates are in a way offering a better service. When it comes to Steam however, Valve are offering the quickest and earliest way to get hold of the game. On top of this, it's not easy to patch one of Valve's games, since the update process is so inextricably linked to Steam.

The result - Gabe Newell has consistently told us that piracy statistics are negligible compared to sales for Valve games. Compared with Cevat Yerli's wailing doom and gloom that his game only sold 1,000,000 copies and that pirated copies outnumber retail ones 20 fold.

"lol"

Evolve or die ladies.

Igoe
12th Oct 2008, 20:02
I like steam. I use it. I've bought MANY games off steam. They have all run great, been autopatched, and make it easier for me to join the games others are playing online.

I do, however, think there needs to be a retail version as well. Some people just prefer that. It needs to be staggered though, to prevent zero day cracks. It won't ELIMINATE them, but If the steam version is out 2 weeks before the retail version, that gives steam a chance to get the game out early to suck in all the "must have" crowds.

Others want a hard copy purchased in cash with a nice case, a manual and a paper receipt. Thats perfectly fine and should DEFINITELY be an option.

And then there are the SUPER hardcore fans who will buy the game the day its out regardless of what it comes out on, steam included, and may even buy it a second time if there is an awesome retail version with goodies!

gargar
12th Oct 2008, 20:11
I do, however, think there needs to be a retail version as well.

again, Steam doesn't prevent you from releasing a retail version. Valve games got one, right?

imported_van_HellSing
12th Oct 2008, 20:55
Steam: the New World Order.