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Havenkel
5th Oct 2008, 15:35
Edit: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=198546. That's what I'm basint this off of.

Hey everyone, I'm new here. I posted this sometime yesterday at gamefaqs, and came here to see how you guys felt about it. I can't say I like the direction it's going. I hate the direction it's going. I just copied/pasted it, so it might seem like I'm addresing someone at some points, but anyway, here you are:

I was so hyped for this game. I really was. Deus Ex is the best game I have EVER played, and I still thoroughly enjoy it. Not to mention that I'm new to the mods, therefore giving me another year or two of replay.

Let me start with the stealth system. Deus Ex had better stealth that MGS (which I will elaborate on later in this paragraph). It was one of the first games that let you be somewhere without the enemies already knowing where you were. You could hide in plain sight, but be dark enough to get away with it. You even had what they are implementing: cover. So what Eidos Montreal is doing, is taking away a very important feature (shadows), and giving a feature already in the game a different camera angle. That is bull****. That is completely unnessacary, and in the year 2008, they should be able to implement BOTH! They have the resources! I don't want to give up the most important aspect of gameplay for a cinematic camera. Deus Ex is NOT a shooter, and it should not be made into a GoW/MGS4 clone, with a FPS pospective. This is excatly what Metal Gear Solid 1 did with the PSone and the MGS2 with the PS2. Think about how far we've come from that! I can't play MGS with stealth. That's because the system is flawed deeply, and if you can call standing 15 feet in front of a guard stealth...This game was potentionally going to redifine the cross genre which is the RPS, and now it's a clone.

Now onto the healing system. Why? Why did they need auto-heal? It completely takes away skill, and caters to the consoles which can't be controlled fast enough to use a medical supply. If this is a prequel, why could'nt JC self heal? Why couldn't Alex self heal? Why can't GUNTHER self heal, he's from the same era! If I get near blown up, I don't hide inside a closet until my burns go away. If I fall 40 feet and miracously live, I dont wait 2 minutes for my broken bones to get better. If you get shot in the legs with a clip of heavy machine gun rounds, you shouldn't be able to walk, and that's what they're doing. They are SIMPLIFYING the game! I didn't think of this before! I didn't CARE! But now I see that when games are released on consoles WITH the PC, it gets severely hobbled.

The developers always said they learned from IW's mistakes, and I do not doubt that they did. They learned that people want to be able to costumize their character, and that people want to be able to fire something other than a bullet. But they didn't learn that people want complex designs. They want IMMERSION. They don't want constant regeneration. Auto heal and cover is the exact equivelent of Deus Ex in broad daylight, and a regeneration aug that doesn't use bioenergy. This crap is the reason why I'm turning into a PC only gamer. I'm not saying that Halo and CoD are bad. They aren't. I don't like their healing system though. And I'm not saying that MGS 1 and 2 are bad. Well, they are, but the story is AMAZING. It's an interactive movie, that's the mindset I used to get through the game. MGS3 is the masterpiece of the series, and it used a formula that came from the origional Deus Ex. Except they expanded it.

Hell, even the PS3 and the 360 could handle basic shadows and a targeted health system! This isn't even simplifying for the consoles. THIS IS BENDING OVER FOR THE CASUAL GAMERS! I am in no way saying that consoles hold back the PC's potential. But people shouldnt care for that. The consoles are very capable of handling a very complex game, with average graphics. The people people SHOULD be blaming for this type of thing are the casual gamer. Before I go on, I want to say something about casual gaming, to help clarify and avoid a huge argument. When you think of casual gaming, you think of the Wii, of minigames, games that have no story, or a basic gameplay concept. But another overlooked definition is a gamer who doesn't take...no, doesn't have time to bother with all these complex stuff. Stuff like stealth, or a manual health system, or customization. Casual gamers make up a very large portion of the gaming population. But the funny part is that casual gamers like the Wii and the DS, and the PSP more.That's why those are marketed as such. A very small percentage play games such as Deus Ex, Half Life, or Bioshock. None play Metal Gear Solid, for very obvious reasons. But they do enjoy mindless shooters, like GoW, Halo, and CoD. Not to say these aren't excellent games

Biomods...Biomechanical technology is vastly inferior to nanotechnology. But that isn't the problem. Infact, I would welcome being a half-robot that has strength given to him by artificial joints. Who could see infrared. Let's look at the word: Biomechanical. Bio means basicly the human body. Mechanical means just that. Machine. So why do tentacles shoot out of my back into a wall? That is BIOENGINEERING. Changing the human genes into something else. Let's say that the "tentacle" is a metal rod. How does the metal stick onto solid surfaces? It can't. How does J...Adam store metal claws in his back? Who knows. And again, why can't JC do this stuff?! If the game takes place YEARS before JC and Paul and Alex, than why can this guy?!

If they had learned so much from IW, I would have thought that they would implement the skills well. If all the skills do is determine how we can mod our weapon, then they are giving us DX:IW except that we have to PAY SKILLS to mod our weapons. These skills might as well be liscences to....the modifications that we but ingame. If they don't affect your accuracy, they AREN'T SKILLS! What they are doing is making us pay ingame money AND skillpoints to use a modification. If you already have a sniper rifle, you can do whatever. You can shoot from a mile away, reload, whatever. And if you want extra fun, you can put in a glass destabilizer, or a proton altfire that doesn't appear 20 years ahead.

And you must think, with all these time paradoxes, the setting of time is just a copout from IW. Once DX3 comes out, whats going to happen? They can't make sequels, and they can't, well I guess they can make another prequel, but it'll be in the PRESENT. If you really think about it, this may be the final DX, unless they take the path of least resistance, and use the "what if JC..." story. They cant make a sequel to this game, because they have two ends to tie up. Both the one from the new story and the original. They can't make another sequel to the original because nothing happens in between DX and IW. And the endings in IW have a sense of finality to them.

Maybe the game will be good if you don't think of it as a Deus Ex title, but from the bit of information they DID give us, I am really, REALLY saddened. The game still has over a year or even 2 years worth of development in it, and maybe they'll take all this backlash from the fans and change the game, and there is a lot of hate for this preview, even on this dead board. I'm HOPING that this game will take off. I hope it gets GOTY and spawns a thousand mods. But I don't think that's going to happen. The preview really killed my anticipation for this game, and I would have liked it if they just didn't release any info on it until a few months before release. But now all we can really do is sit back and hope, because this seems like a game on it's own at this point.

Freddo
5th Oct 2008, 15:52
Let me start with the stealth system. Deus Ex had better stealth that MGS (which I will elaborate on later in this paragraph). It was one of the first games that let you be somewhere without the enemies already knowing where you were. You could hide in plain sight, but be dark enough to get away with it. You even had what they are implementing: cover. So what Eidos Montreal is doing, is taking away a very important feature (shadows), and giving a feature already in the game a different camera angle.
Deus Ex didn't have shadows. It had darkness, but no shadows. You could be in a dark area in Deus Ex and be unnoticed if lucky, but the vast majority of sneaking was done by hiding behind things (taking cover) and lean towards the sides to peak out.

And they haven't given the game a different camera angle. That comment is faulty and has already been adressed on this forum.

No. The game is FIRST person, but automatically switches to third person for some contextual actions. You as the player do not have the ability to swap between views...it's a first person game but there are times where we want you to see Adam doing cool things.
Kinda like how Deus Ex goes into third person during dialogues & cutscenes.


Now onto the healing system. Why? Why did they need auto-heal? It completely takes away skill, and caters to the consoles which can't be controlled fast enough to use a medical supply. If this is a prequel, why could'nt JC self heal?
Oh, but JC could self heal, if he had the augumentation for it. Seems like the player have that one from the beginning now.

As for the skills, well, I wait until we have more info on that, but this is what the paper article says.

They're "placing a renewed emphasis on experience points and the leveling up of your character." In addition, the developers are doing their best for those who want to play it as a "more thoughtful stealth, hacking and social interaction RPG.

In any case, I find these things to be extremely minor things in what made Deus Ex, well, Deus Ex. The far most important things for me are the level design, the multipath choices, the consequences, the story & characters and of course, the cyberpunk setting.

Icarus AI
5th Oct 2008, 16:05
Oh, but JC could self heal, if he had the augumentation for it. Seems like the player have that one from the beginning now.



Yeah but it took bioenergy and it was based on nanotechnology. I can understand how small nanites can heal your body, but how the hell does mechanical prosthetics heal you?

I for one loved moments in Deus Ex where you have 20% health on your torso and you had to think real carefully what to do next (well now the game feels pretty damn easy after playing it a hunred times, but still).

WhatsHisFace
5th Oct 2008, 16:14
To me it seems like the developers are just making the same mistakes found in Invisible War all over again. They have a different mindset for making those mistakes, but they are making the same mistake.

Changing the core of the Deus Ex experience is a mistake. Changing how stealth works is a mistake. Putting too much focus on weaponry is a mistake. Scaling back RPG elements is a mistake. Recharging health is a mistake.

All they needed to do was take the systems from Deus Ex, and polish them up and then deliver a balanced game with new content and it would have "revolutionized" games and been the talk of the industry. Instead they're trying to do another FPS to win over the Halo crowd, who is only looking forward to military shooters anyway.

GamerX51
5th Oct 2008, 16:14
But from the bit of information they DID give us, I am really, REALLY saddened.

All right, just stop right there, buddy. **** Before you continue with this monomaniacal rant that you've embarked on, allow me to clarify a few things. First off, Rene has already strongly hinted in several threads in this "Dead" forum that a lot of the feature information in that PC Gamer article may be incorrect, or at least misrepresented.

Secondly, you must remember, the setting for DX3 is VASTLY different than the setting for DX1 was. In DX1, the world's economy had all but collapsed, leaving large portions of the globe in ruins, and many people out of jobs and homeless, which is why you see so many bums and homeless people in DX1.

DX3 takes place years before the global economic meltdown depicted in DX1, so of course things are going to be better looking...those were better times. A lot of the advanced technology depicted in DX3 may simply have been lost in the chaos of the economic depression, or ballooning inflation rates may have rendered them too expensive to manufacture. There are many historical examples of this happening in the real world.

Honestly, I wish some of the people who come on this forum shouting and screaming about how much they hate auto-heal would take the time to actually READ the damn article (not to mention Rene's responses to the article) before jumping to conclusions and bashing the developers.

imported_van_HellSing
5th Oct 2008, 16:16
Scaling back RPG elements

To get all wikipedic, [citation needed]

Havenkel
5th Oct 2008, 16:38
@ gamerx51

By dead forum, I was referring to the gamefaqs boards.


Secondly, you must remember, the setting for DX3 is VASTLY different than the setting for DX1 was. In DX1, the world's economy had all but collapsed, leaving large portions of the globe in ruins, and many people out of jobs and homeless, which is why you see so many bums and homeless people in DX1

I didn't say anything about not liking the setting. Infact, I didn't mention the setting at all, so I can't see where you're coming from with that. You're whole post seems to be about the setting of DX3, which I had not faulted, bashed, or anything of the like to.


Deus Ex didn't have shadows. It had darkness, but no shadows. You could be in a dark area in Deus Ex and be unnoticed if lucky, but the vast majority of sneaking was done by hiding behind things (taking cover) and lean towards the sides to peak out

Deus Ex did have shadows, although not any you could hide in besides the ones from walls and buildings. So the "darkness" you refer to are actually those shadows, and they increase you're chance of not being detected. If I recall correctly, it's one of the first things Alex J says in the game.

SubTonic20
5th Oct 2008, 16:46
I agree with Freddo's statement of the stealth system. The shadows never really played a big role in the first game, and even less of one in the second game (I was getting caught while huddled in a corner so deep in a shadow not even I could see much and still got caught regularly). Cover was the stealth system of both games, so I doubt it will be much of a dramatic change when it's finally focused upon. In fact, it may be for the better.

To the auto heal griping, simply play in a higher difficulty. That's the best cure for an easy game. Besides, the healing hasn't even been verified yet, so that rant is based on an assumption.

Someone already made a very good point as to why the world looks so much nicer in this game, and I have to say I agree with them. The economical state may have been much better in Adam's time, explaining why it looks the way it does. If you still have a problem with it, I suggest bashing your head against a wall until you develop some sense.

Also, they can do anything they want with the series. You have no say in whether or not they can make another sequel or prequel based off of your own way of thinking. If they wanted to make a sequel to the first Deus Ex following the Illuminati ending, then they are absolutely allowed to. In fact, that would be interesting.

Oh, and to the tentacle thing: I highly suggest you wait for the game to be released and read up on the details of this augmentation. EM may have come up with a very good explanation for it. What you're doing here is just being picky.

Freddo
5th Oct 2008, 16:51
Deus Ex did have shadows, although not any you could hide in besides the ones from walls and buildings. So the "darkness" you refer to are actually those shadows, and they increase you're chance of not being detected.
An area with a lack of light doesn't have any shadows. It's dark. The whole game is dark.

GamerX51
5th Oct 2008, 16:52
You're whole post seems to be about the setting of DX3, which I had not faulted, bashed, or anything of the like to.

OK... so maybe I didn't get my point across clearly enough.

What I was trying to say by mentioning the setting was that you can't just hand a new Dev team a formula for an eight year old game, and expect them to churn out a DX1 clone. DX1 was a completely different animal than DX3, and it is a colossal mistake to think that the devs will be able to completely recreate the masterpiece that was DX1.

The problem with the PC Gamer article was that a lot of people misread the article, went completely off the deep end and started a miniature flame war on this and other forums about it. This kind of immature, overreacting is exactly the reason why most game companies don't really pay much attention to what their customers think about their games.

Laokin
5th Oct 2008, 17:39
Edit: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=198546. That's what I'm basint this off of.




WOW, seriously -- I didn't wanna do it.... but you half-reading dip****s made me sign up for this forum.

First I'd like to say, any comparison to IW is just made up in your head, and it's quite obvious that DX3 is pretty tight with DX1 -- some MINOR changes.

To address why JC couldn't bungee jump, look at the whole picture. Mech Augs are DISLIKED, they were phased out so super soldiers can look normal, fit in with the people without them knowing you were aug'd. So obviously there is a change in technology here, mech --> Nano. Nano is almost unnoticeable, and maybe has a price that comes with it. Why do we still have analoguous devices today in the digital world? Well this is because somethings analog does better. (Disbelieve me? check out a music studio.)

So for example purposes only... Say we compared a Jump Aug. The mech aug maybe able to leap whole building, and the nano could make you jump 15 feet through the air. The mech looks extremely obvious, as you cannot hide the required technology to allow you to jump so high. Nano mods, being practically invisible, which would allow your soldier to blend in with normal people. JC was NANO, ADAM is MECH.... I would imagine there will be tons of different things mech augs could do that nano augs couldn't for this simple fact.

Flash back to DX Gunther looked like Robocop!!! lmao, you people call youselves die hard DX fans but can't see that the world was practically all but post apocalyptic. The world was in ruins, who do you think was funding the factories and scientists that were created mech augs. Also the number of people who used mech augs were much lower as the people were prejudice towards mech aug'd people. The people with the mech augs were top secret super agents. They wanted to broaden the abilities of the mech augs without compromising humanity, so they spent time and resources developing nano augs. DX 3 takes place in a different setting, a setting where the world is functioning as normal, and will no doubt explain the reason for the world to end up in ruins. Mech aug's are probably not hated at first but more welcomed... so they are actively developing new ones. Then they get overpowered and some corrupt people use said overpowered augs for maybe terrorist attacks and the like, people realize humans shouldn't have this power and then they start to hate Mech Aug'd people.

as for you understanding how a nano aug can heal you and a mechanical one cannot????? Thats nutso, I don't feel like I should explain it, but I must I suppose. So you can't make a machine that can breathe for you? So you can't make an artificial heart that can self repair itself? So you can't laser meld a wound closed to stop the bleeding? These are all things we have NOW in the real world. This is in a different universe where technology is far more advanced then real life, set in the not so distant future, why are they not capable of shrinking some of these down, and making improvements upon such technologies???? It's a VIDEO GAME, wake up -- NANO AUGS ARE NOT REAL....... yet. Mech AUGS are not real yet! Why would you dictate to the creators of a video game who are making a lush universe full of super human lore about the impossibilities of a technology THEY ARE CREATING IN THEIR OWN RIGHT.

Third, stop *****ing about the auto heal. Almost EVERY rpg in history has autoheal, so stop acting like you know how it's gonna work. Diablo had autoheal, but you COULD NOT, and I repeat COULD NOT, beat that game without potions. Who said the autoheal will heal you fully? Who said the autoheal works in 6 seconds? Who is to say that the autoheal doesn't tick 1 hp back a second? Who's to say the max life in DX3 is 100? Who's to say that the autoheal doesn't take energy? Who's to say the auto heal isn't upgradeable? Maybe the default auto heal will regen your life from 1 to a hundred in the time it takes you to buy, sell, talk, bribe, hack your way into a computer and take no energy. Now when you make the conscience choice to upgrade it it takes energy and is capable of healing you much faster???

As to the Stat points IW didn't even have them, so obviously EM isn't going the route of IW. The stats may not change your accuracy, but thats what I HATED about DX 1. If your gonna make a game from the FP perspective, and give me a crosshair, then make the crosshair useless because human accuracy doesn't matter, then why make in FP at all? DX could of been a top down isometric RPG with the same story and people would of praised it the same. I always saw that as a fundamental flaw in this "Perfect" game everyone is talking about. DX1 was one of the greatest games of all time, but perfection it was NOT. Nothing is "PERFECT" as there is always room for improvement. Skills IMO, should affect hacking, social aspects, maybe your life points, but not critical aiming skills. If you wanna be the person who says RPG's you play the role of somebody better than you, so you should base it on stats, so if your not good you can still feel like your playing the role -- I'm sorry your wrong. The reason CHOICE is in the game is so you can role play HOW YOU WANT TO. The person who is the type of person to make JC a badass guns blazing hero, is probably more likely to be good at shooters. The person who takes the stealth diplomacy route, is obviously more likely to be an analytical type of person. The type of person who would rather think up a way to do something without being caught. So why make stats influence that? It ruins the role IMO when I want to be JC guns blazing, and it's dependent on stats, or i wanna sneak and oops my sneaking isn't ranked high enough blah blah blah.

Let's not give EM the praise for avoiding mistakes that your own Warren Spector couldn't even dodge in DX 2. Oh but this is the same crowd that wants Warren back, so he can further beat the series into the ground?? Uni Ammo, no stats, simplified hud, no real inventory, claustrophobic level design, horrendous performance..... these are all things that Spector is responsible for, that EM -- has changed. (Well, with maybe the exception of performance as we have no clue what the reqs are and how it runs, but c'mon it's the Tomb Raider Engine.)

Last time I checked games that were marketed for IMMERSION, such as HL2, your character doesn't speak, plus the camera NEVER shifts. DX always shifted to 3rd person for conversations which breaks the immersion right there. They aren't damaging the immersion by making some parts of the gameplay 3rdperson. So far it looks like we are actually gonna get a righteous sequel (well it is called DX3, even if the time line is before DX1, it's the 3rd iteration of the series) and you guys are gonna ruin it. Running your mouth talkin about this and that when YOU DO NOT KNOW, are damaging the sales of this game. People will contrive notions that the game is not a true DX game and this and that, and they will overlook it -- based on a RUMOUR spread by fans that can't even take the time to read an article. Go join 3D Realms forums, and talk **** about Duke, you can do no harm there.

Laokin

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 18:25
There's already approximately 52 to the 9th power of these threads. Please use one of the other billion.