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ZenAbra
4th Oct 2008, 18:21
I don't know if it's from the magazine article itself or from misinterpretations of the article in these forums, but news is spreading fast which will likely be damaging to the way Deus Ex 3 is anticipated.

Check out this quote on the major gaming news site Blues News (http://www.bluesnews.com/):



changes are described that further depart from Deus Ex canon, and make the project sound more like Gears of War

D'oh!

Fan reception to this is becoming predictably severe. :(

I use Google Alerts to email me when blogs or news stories mention "Deus Ex 3", and the murmuring ain't pretty.

If this is based on completely inaccurate information, that really sucks. I hope you're able to clarify this for a few major gaming news sites so the misinformation doesn't continue to spread.

Larington
4th Oct 2008, 18:32
Yeah, that sounds completely wrong from what I know, trust a blogging site to get it all wrong.

Kutz206
4th Oct 2008, 18:39
You know how video gamers, especially in the online community, are and how the respond a majority of the time.

If the only thing announced was "Deus Ex has guns" someone would have got mad and wrote something like how Deus Ex is trying to copy CoD4 or whatever.

I like to wait until I see footage/in depth articles/ etc. before making any assumptions whatsoever.

René
4th Oct 2008, 18:45
Well, that's the Internet. What can I say? So far, only one magazine has come out (and that's in the UK). And we have a few scans of said magazines on the Internet. How many people who are reacting have actually read the full preview?

I saw on one forum people were saying that the game had zero RPG elements, which is completely incorrect. In fact, have a look at one line from the PC Zone article: "As a result, they're... placing a renewed emphasis on experience points and the leveling up of your character". Yes, DX3 is an RPG.

Hopefully the correct info will spread when the magazine is actually available to people on news stands (and more magazines too, of course), rather than just some low-res scans.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Oct 2008, 18:50
Good stuff. :thumbsup:

Spyhopping
4th Oct 2008, 18:55
There will probably be a fair amount of negativity every time new information is released. I love the original but I always try to stay open minded

ricwhite
4th Oct 2008, 20:54
Bits and pieces of text that I read seem to indicate that there will be situations that shift to a third-person perspective. I'm just wondering what the reaction is to moving from a total first-person game to a combination first- and third-person game.

ZenAbra
4th Oct 2008, 20:59
This is getting messy as I already mentioned this in the other thread, but from what I can decipher in the scans I've seen, this will work much like Chronicles of Riddic.

It's really a first-person game. The third-person bits are minimal and are only briefly used to highlight specific moves and circumstances.

While I too would prefer uninterrupted immersion from the first-person perspective, the method worked surprisingly well in Riddic and Deus Ex already cuts away to third-person quite a bit for dialogue. Thus it might not be a very radical addition. *shrug*

So I'm not too concerned about it. I think there may be bigger issues to discuss and debate.

René
4th Oct 2008, 21:07
This is getting messy as I already mentioned this in the other thread, but from what I can decipher in the scans I've seen, this will work much like Chronicles of Riddic.

It's really a first-person game. The third-person bits are minimal and are only briefly used to highlight specific moves and circumstances.

Exactly. And there's no 1st-3rd toggle. It's absolutely a 1st person game, with the 3rd person elements happening for a few seconds to show off something cool.

CarloGervasi
5th Oct 2008, 00:43
Well, that's the Internet. What can I say? So far, only one magazine has come out (and that's in the UK). And we have a few scans of said magazines on the Internet. How many people who are reacting have actually read the full preview?

I saw on one forum people were saying that the game had zero RPG elements, which is completely incorrect. In fact, have a look at one line from the PC Zone article: "As a result, they're... placing a renewed emphasis on experience points and the leveling up of your character". Yes, DX3 is an RPG.

Hopefully the correct info will spread when the magazine is actually available to people on news stands (and more magazines too, of course), rather than just some low-res scans.

RPGs aren't defined by stats and level ups, otherwise Godfather and Ninja Gaiden would be RPGs.

Bluey71
5th Oct 2008, 01:34
Simmer down and relax ppl - we are never going to get another DX1, just accept that, and accept that new developers to a game franchise would want, and deserve, to put in their own 'style' to a game - nobody would want to copy DX1 - and we should be glad of that. You know, innovation etc.

Yes, it looks like there are some deviations, but so far these seem to be minimal. The artwork is - wow very nice, those ingame shots look awesome.

As for the internet - chinese whispers.

Now that we have some new info and can see what direction in terms of gameplay and story Eidos are taking, I feel a LOT better now. Thumbs up for using Sheldon P on the story - theres a reason to smile.

thomasaquinas
5th Oct 2008, 01:54
Simmer down and relax ppl - we are never going to get another DX1, just accept thatAccept it? Why the hell should we accept it? There's no reason a Deus Ex-esque game could not be created today. It would be a risk, yes - it was a risk in 2000 as well. I do not have to accept the devolution of artistic integrity into mediocrity that has defined the 00s. It's your duty to oppose it.
and accept that new developers to a game franchise would want, and deserve, to put in their own 'style' to a gameThey deserve to? Well we'll agree that legally, they have the right. But who gives a **** about that? I'd like to think we lived in a world where people determine whether or not something truly belongs to them, on terms that are a little more meaningful than legal documentation. Let's get this clear. Deus Ex does not belong to EM in any meaningful sense, although the law would say it does, that is no meaningful sense.

If I picked up a project like this I would never have the *hubris* and audacity to consider myself in a position to know better what it is that defines Deus Ex than those who created it. I would change little simply because it is clear to me when I'm in a position where others would know better. It's a damn privilege to be handed a Universe like Deus Ex for a debut title.

nobody would want to copy DX1 - and we should be glad of that. You know, innovation etc.Stripping out game play elements unforeseen since Deus Ex and replacing them with ones lifted directly out of games currently in stores is NOT "innovashun".
Yes, it looks like there are some deviations, but so far these seem to be minimal.Recall that combat simplification was not the only problem Invisible War had. Changes to combat were a symptom of a larger shift in design philosophy that also resulted in similarly simplified characters, setting and narrative.


Thumbs up for using Sheldon P on the story - theres a reason to smile.He's a consultant - not a writer. I guess they felt that they had someone better than Sheldon Palcotti. Wouldn't surpise me if they hired him to quell the fears of the small rabble of hardcore fans, in order to sell to these as well as the majority sixteen year old XBOX market.

HouseOfPain
5th Oct 2008, 01:58
Auto Heal!


Auto Heal And No Shadow Sneak!

Ggdfgjdsjsdfdfklfjdsfljgvdfjlvncxvkmnxc Vxcvdfcg)i$!!

Freddo
5th Oct 2008, 03:05
Auto Heal!


Auto Heal And No Shadow Sneak!

Ggdfgjdsjsdfdfklfjdsfljgvdfjlvncxvkmnxc Vxcvdfcg)i$!!

Hehe, what's kinda funny here is that the original Deus Ex didn't have shadows to hide/sneak in either, and if you wanted to hide from enemies, you would cover behind something (and lean from the sides to peek out).

K^2
5th Oct 2008, 03:21
RPGs aren't defined by stats and level ups, otherwise Godfather and Ninja Gaiden would be RPGs.
That is so. However, absolutely nothing in the info provided so far indicates that it will be any less RPG than original. Character interactions are said to be very important, and it seems that the game will be more sensitive to player's choices.

Personally, I never liked skill points in FPS games. DX is not an exception in that. In my opinion, more things should have been shifted towards augmentations. From aim improvements to hacking. In that sense, IW was a step in the right direction. It kept some sense of development, while getting rid of rather arbitrary skill point system. Of course, it also gave you way too much freedom with augmentation, so it felt too flat.

But then again, I don't see it as a big enough point to complain about.

CarloGervasi
5th Oct 2008, 03:56
absolutely nothing in the info provided so far indicates that it will be any less RPG than original.

The lack of expanding/shrinking cross-hairs relative to weapon skills suggests that, actually. "Character skill > Player skill" in an RPG. In the first, I was playing the role of JC, making decisions as he would make them, and doing things as he would do them based on his particular skill set at the time. I realize that isn't how everyone played the original, but it was nice that it was an option, that they really did go an extra mile to give a lot of role playing depth and options. Here, there are already signs of that falling by the wayside. Actual RPG mechanics instead being replaced with the mechanics of a story-heavy action game with stats. While the difference may be minute to some, it's an important distinction for me. It shows a lack of one of the things that gave the original Deus Ex such longevity for me.

K^2
5th Oct 2008, 04:47
The shrinking aiming reticle is meant to indicate the weapon skill, but the lack thereof does not indicate the lack of aiming skill being a factor. We know that there are skill points in DX3 already.


"Character skill > Player skill" in an RPG.
Unfortunately, that is true of most RPG, but it is not what defines the genre.

First of all, if character skill isn't defined by player skill, then what do you have left? A time-wasting grinder? That's never a good idea.

Now, you can shift it to other skills. Like, allow high skill points accumulated through tactics and whatnot offset your poor aiming skills. But that still means that you are using player skills. Any RPG that refuses to use player skill on some level might as well be an interactive comic book.

Furthermore, DX is an FPS. Player skill in combat plays a big role, whether you chose a shoot-first approach, or a more stealthy angle.

Now, back to the point. You do not need a set of character skills to have a Role Playing Game. The only prerequisite of an RPG is to allow the player to assume different roles, which you can't change on the spot. Now, these roles can reflect character's abilities, which is usually done via skill points, but it does not have to. Augmentations also affect abilities, making your character development unique. But even that isn't necessary. You can achieve the role selection purely through interaction with other characters. This is also done in original DX, and is much more definitive of your character than how many points you've invested in picking locks.

thomasaquinas
5th Oct 2008, 05:05
Unfortunately, that is true of most RPG, but it is not what defines the genre.Actually, it is. If you consider that PC RPGs evolved directly from table-top pen-and-paper RPGs.


First of all, if character skill isn't defined by player skill, then what do you have left?Something like Fallout, perhaps? A game generally regarded to be the pinnacle of PC RPGs.

K^2
5th Oct 2008, 05:10
Again, the skill points are a method of achieving role specialization. An annoyingly common method, but just a method nonetheless. RPG does not require skill points to be RPG. As many flaws as IW had, it did not lose RPG element because of lack of skill points. It lost it for other reasons. And original DX would still be considered an RPG even without the skill points involved.

Now games like WoW would be nothing without it. But WoW is just a grinder, and so it is of no surprise.

Any RPG that is not a grinder will involve player skill at some point, whether or not it uses skill points to achieve the actual RPG element.

thomasaquinas
5th Oct 2008, 05:13
Any RPG that is not a grinder will involve player skill at some point, whether or not it uses skill points to achieve the actual RPG element.And Fallout?

CarloGervasi
5th Oct 2008, 05:42
The shrinking aiming reticle is meant to indicate the weapon skill, but the lack thereof does not indicate the lack of aiming skill being a factor.
Yes, it does.


We know that there are skill points in DX3 already.
We also know they have a very arcade-like effect of increasing weapon damage, thats it. Which, among other negative things, means they aren't being used to enhance the RPG aspect.



Unfortunately, that is true of most RPG, but it is not what defines the genre.
It's actually one of the things that does define the genre. Playing a character, not an avatar. That character's skill and experiences taking precedent over the players. Role-playing. Role-playing game. Get it?


Furthermore, DX is an FPS.
No, it isn't. Deus Ex is an RPG that takes place from the first person perspective and happens to include shooting, if you so choose. Deus Ex is a game that I can complete, as designed, with no trickery, without ever pulling out a gun and shooting somebody. Ever. That isn't an FPS. The fact that it's carrying numerous "best RPG" awards pretty much cements the fact that it's an RPG, not a FPS. It's no more a FPS than Halo is a driving game.



Now, back to the point. You do not need a set of character skills to have a Role Playing Game.
Thats actually one of the few things you do need. Otherwise it's a story heavy action game, not an RPG. RPGs have you playing a character, not controlling an avatar.





Also, on an unrelated note -


Well, that's the Internet. What can I say? So far, only one magazine has come out (and that's in the UK). And we have a few scans of said magazines on the Internet. How many people who are reacting have actually read the full preview?

I saw on one forum people were saying that the game had zero RPG elements, which is completely incorrect. In fact, have a look at one line from the PC Zone article: "As a result, they're... placing a renewed emphasis on experience points and the leveling up of your character". Yes, DX3 is an RPG.

Hopefully the correct info will spread when the magazine is actually available to people on news stands (and more magazines too, of course), rather than just some low-res scans.
I don't think "meh, they haven't read the full thing" is really going to adequately curb the negative word of mouth and first impressions. Releasing some facts into the wild would, IMO, be a little bit better at that. So you know...go ahead and release some.

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 07:07
RPGs aren't defined by stats and level ups, otherwise Godfather and Ninja Gaiden would be RPGs.
What do you define an RPG as then?

Accept it? Why the hell should we accept it? There's no reason a Deus Ex-esque game could not be created today. It would be a risk, yes - it was a risk in 2000 as well. I do not have to accept the devolution of artistic integrity into mediocrity that has defined the 00s. It's your duty to oppose it.They deserve to? Well we'll agree that legally, they have the right. But who gives a **** about that? I'd like to think we lived in a world where people determine whether or not something truly belongs to them, on terms that are a little more meaningful than legal documentation. Let's get this clear. Deus Ex does not belong to EM in any meaningful sense, although the law would say it does, that is no meaningful sense.

If I picked up a project like this I would never have the *hubris* and audacity to consider myself in a position to know better what it is that defines Deus Ex than those who created it. I would change little simply because it is clear to me when I'm in a position where others would know better. It's a damn privilege to be handed a Universe like Deus Ex for a debut title.
Stripping out game play elements unforeseen since Deus Ex and replacing them with ones lifted directly out of games currently in stores is NOT "innovashun".Recall that combat simplification was not the only problem Invisible War had. Changes to combat were a symptom of a larger shift in design philosophy that also resulted in similarly simplified characters, setting and narrative.

He's a consultant - not a writer. I guess they felt that they had someone better than Sheldon Palcotti. Wouldn't surpise me if they hired him to quell the fears of the small rabble of hardcore fans, in order to sell to these as well as the majority sixteen year old XBOX market.
Just for the record, don't post stats in the future, because the majority of the Xbox market falls between 28 and 35, fool. Secondly, I'm glad you know so much about game design, hopefully the next Deus Ex game will be left in the hands of some angry fan like you, so I can REALLY appreciate the game.

So far you've been here for almost no time what-so-ever. You've never been in the threads, contributed anything worth-while, put your opinion in on what should be done, and yet YOU have the audacity to come here and complain. You remind of the people that don't vote, and then complain about the president after.

CarloGervasi
5th Oct 2008, 08:10
What do you define an RPG as then?
It's a couple of things.

A role-playing game is a game in which I am playing as a character, rather than that character being an avatar for me.

And, before someone chimes in with it, no, just because you're controlling Master Chief, doesn't mean you're playing as that character.

In an RPG, I have the ability to play entirely different ways depending on who I want my character to be. The character's skill set, personality, history etc can all come into play. The character reacts as the character would. In any other type of game, the character is just an avatar for you. The Master Chief could probably take down 5 guys in 5 seconds, but if you suck, so will he. Tommy Vercetti may be a heartless psychopath, but if you want to play an otherwise good guy who just got in over his head...well, tough luck, you're a heartless psychopath.


It's about choice. It's about my character having the kinds of choices that you'd expect, and being able to pick one based on what he'd pick. I can bribe a homeless kid with some candy to get some intel, I can run in shooting, let someone else handle the fighting, sneak in, etc, all depending on personality and motivations and such. In a non-RPG, I'm usually heading down the only path, getting ready to shoot/slice/punch/whatever some aliens/demons/whatever, to push a button, to go through the only door, etc. I'm not really playing my story, I'm not really taking a character through an arc, I'm just sort of along for somebody else's ride.


And some of this stuff is hard to quantify, so there's always going to be a lot of disagreement about what counts and what doesn't. But those are the basic elements of any real RPG. Most RPGs, and all the popular ones, have featured stats and "levels" of some kind, and so they've sorta become the genre hallmark for a lot of people, but they aren't whats required for an RPG, they just happen to be present in a lot of them. The same way real teams aren't required for a sports game to be a sports game, even though they happen to be in a lot of them, or the way aliens aren't required for a science fiction story, even though they happen to be in a lot of them. These things soft of become defacto genre hallmarks, but they still don't really define the genre.

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 08:14
That seems like a fair-enough answer, I can live with that. Still, by the general use of the term these days it's usually used to denote Stats/Levels (Game "X" has an RPG system where your character can level up). Again though, that was fairly well thought out, I congratulate you. =)

thomasaquinas
5th Oct 2008, 09:26
What do you define an RPG as then?

Just for the record, don't post stats in the future, because the majority of the Xbox market falls between 28 and 35, fool. Secondly, I'm glad you know so much about game design, hopefully the next Deus Ex game will be left in the hands of some angry fan like you, so I can REALLY appreciate the game.

So far you've been here for almost no time what-so-ever. You've never been in the threads, contributed anything worth-while, put your opinion in on what should be done, and yet YOU have the audacity to come here and complain. You remind of the people that don't vote, and then complain about the president after.
Or, conversely, wait until some of the candidates policies are actually available and then vote. I like it how anything you disagree with is a "complaint" rather than an argument. But I'll take your uh... complaint, heh, into consideration.

dark_angel_7
5th Oct 2008, 10:30
This happens all that time. We should just ignore it. When the info and media comes direct from Eidos Montreal I'm sure all this will be history by then.

Azrepheal
5th Oct 2008, 10:46
Id like to take a moment amongst the 'debating' to give three cheers to René for going out of the way specifically to come here and spend time doing the arduous task of reassuring us and answering our concerns to the new DX3 info, while simultaneously trying not to give away or spoil any parts of the game. Not an easy job considering the unruly mob we are :p

So René - cheers.

Red
5th Oct 2008, 12:49
I hope the health regeneration thigy clears up within a month or two, or else there will be a lot of people really (i mean REALLY) pissed off. (including me)

SubTonic20
5th Oct 2008, 13:23
I can foresee a lot of flame wars coming over this game, as is the case with any new title in a series of games.

First off, any people involved in the RPG vs. FPS debate need a reality check. Deus Ex was both. No amount of BS will be changing that little fact. There were RPG elements and FPS elements. Don't try to tip the scales just for the sake of *****ing.

Yeah, they made some changes to the game that was out eight years ago. If anybody is shocked by this news, then crawl out from under the rock and welcome to this generation of gaming. As far as I can tell, EM is trying hard to make something the fans will love, so I see no reason as of yet to be starting any bashing. For such a mature series of games, the community sure as hell is falling short of that standard.

Sure, the technology looks different, but does anybody with a right mind really want an exact carbon copy of what they've already seen, or maybe even a world that almost exactly mimics the one we live in now? This is supposed to be a fictional, semi-realistic world created by a group of people who don't exactly care for technological accuracy. They didn't travel fifty years ahead of us and research what was there. No, they had to brain it all up. The same applies to the fan base. Anybody trying to preach what should and should not belong in a futuristic world, no matter how far from now, is ignorant.

With that in mind, they can do anything they damn well want with this new game, whether or not you picky, selfish whiners care or not. The only things I want out of this are the freedom of choice, some good, large level designs, a good story, and, most of all, good gameplay. If I wanted to see a realistic future world, I will go on with my life and WAIT for it to happen. To the people who will never stop whining about this "Phantom Menace Syndrome" and inconsistencies: Don't bother getting the game and definitely don't bother posting. : \

AaronJ
5th Oct 2008, 13:41
So...self-healing won't be in the game?

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 18:27
Or, conversely, wait until some of the candidates policies are actually available and then vote. I like it how anything you disagree with is a "complaint" rather than an argument. But I'll take your uh... complaint, heh, into consideration.
Have you actually made any constructive critism? No, you're essentially just listed why you don't like the game, and once again, months to late you make what you're suggesting even viable. So yes, what you're doing IS complaining, pure and simple.

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 18:29
I hope the health regeneration thigy clears up within a month or two, or else there will be a lot of people really (i mean REALLY) pissed off. (including me)
Yes, granted I'm not overly fond from what I've heard yet either. But I wait until Rene tells me exactly what's being done.

Laokin
5th Oct 2008, 18:36
<--- Looks up the definition of constructive criticism.

Oh yeah that's when you nicely point out the things you don't like about said product. Complaining is the opposite, deconstructive criticism, it's when you criticize -- with malice. If one is not allowed to say what he/she doesn't like, one cannot criticize, and if one cannot criticize, constructive criticism is an impossibility.

In other words, you do not have to offer solutions to give constructive feedback, you just have to point out the problem.

Now I don't agree with him at all, but that is neither here nor there, what is HERE, are forum mods who want to take away free speech, and at the same time -- insult the people on their forums.

I love how some one can join up here and post about all the negative things about the game, and the thread doesn't get locked. I point out positive things about the game, and my thread becomes Rikers.

Some one should take your mod power away.

(Awaits his ban.)

P.S.
One doesn't have to resort to stepping in until it's getting out of control. It was very well in control, and we shouldn't be treated like we are all assumed to be children. Stop it Daddy, I have the RIGHT to SHARE MY OPINION.

P.S.S.
Explain how it was months to late, when the information is technically scheduled for release Oct. 9th. Four days into the future from today. I'm sure he had a time machine and knew what he didn't like and surely was capable of going back in time a few months to post it -- so the dev's could actually react to his criticism.

Romeo needs an education. At very least, to think before he speaks.

StingingVelvet
5th Oct 2008, 18:49
What an RPG is anymore is so hard to define anyway... so many games now have what we used to call RPG elements that almost every game is an RPG hybrid by those standards, from GTA: San Andreas to Bioshock.

At the end of the day, I want Deus Ex 3 to be immersive, have a deep and intelligent story, and have cool gunplay and character interaction. The rest I'm pretty flexible on.

On topic: I don't think anyone, the community manager included, can change the fact that the Internet is stupid. People are going to have instant and extremely passionate reactions to very little information. That's just the way things go.

Laokin
5th Oct 2008, 18:53
On topic: I don't think anyone, the community manager included, can change the fact that the Internet is stupid. People are going to have instant and extremely passionate reactions to very little information. That's just the way things go.


Agreed, but as it stands -- it's not illegal, offensive, or controllable. The mods need to understand this, and not get so butt hurt when people over react to little information. To null the crowd, would be to release not such misleading information, and when people react by filling in the blanks -- correct your mistakes. Rene has been superb at this, but Romeo is a troll, no better then the people complaining. He even resorts to insults, which is never what you want from a business stand point. Even if he had no real affiliation with the game as I am assuming he doesn't, EM should still be aware that he is representing them with his mod status. The last thing you want is a representative running around insulting people for sharing their opinions and experiences with one another.

imported_van_HellSing
5th Oct 2008, 19:00
Look, when you come here and immediately start calling people "dip****s", something's wrong.

free2game
5th Oct 2008, 19:05
The big problem seems like it's designed more for people who liked Halo than either Deus Ex games. The art style choices seemed nice, but the cover system and recharging health just seem like weak design choices that don't really make sense in the context of the game. I guess it depends on how it's implemented, like say for example you had health packs that recharged lost health but ran out after they were used up or something like that, I guess that could make more sense, but still seem like it would just be limited player choice. As far as cover systems go, it seems like a big fad now that I personally don't care for. Just seems to automate the gameplay too much and takes you out of the view of the player during gameplay. On a related note, I'm glad that Ubisoft didn't include something like that for FC2. I guess the point is, that it should be something that fits into the context of the gameworld, but I mean it's all up to Eidos I guess, but it just seems like a poor design choice that could just alienate fans of RPG games and the large story elements, dialog systems, emphasis on a singleplayer experience, and open endedness would probably just turn off people who like games like Halo, Gears Of War, or Call Of Duty. As I said, it's really up to the publisher to what they want to do with it, but then again, it's up to me to buy it too :P

Laokin
5th Oct 2008, 19:07
Look, when you come here and immediately start calling people "dip****s", something's wrong.

Was I the first? No, I wasn't. Also, name one person is particular that I actually called a Dip****? You can't, because I didn't -- I just made a generalization which shouldn't insult anybody, and if you are insulted -- you must not be very social. If I came here and said ROMEO is a DIP****, you would win, as we all know this is not the case. Also, it's not DIP S h i t, it's NO,NO with a smiley face. There is a reason it's censored, and that's so you can have fun with the smiley's. I only realized it threw the smiley for dip****, because some one else used it in another thread, and I found it to be quite cute. Grow up, and stop contributing to the problem, it's semantics. The overall gist of my post was positive, and that's the only "negative" thing said in there, which in this case, wasn't actually negative -- as the context was taken incorrectly. For you to follow me to this thread just to make a post about it, is worse then my original post IF it were actually meant disrespectfully. You chose to fight me, and I am choosing to explain myself. That is all.

Sulix
5th Oct 2008, 19:10
Actually he didn't add anyonstructive critic, instead he was complaining about things he didn't agree with by declaring them as bad facts.
And no, Roleplaying has nothing to do with stats in general. It's all a matter of abstraction. There are Pen and Papers completely without any stats, and then there are systems like Cyberpunk 2020 or GURPS with a much higher complexity. In the end it's all about the possibility to play your character as you want to, with all the choices and the consequences.

And yeah Thomas, you also didn't get K^2's point. All he did say is, that there always is a point from which on player skill comes in. If there weren't any involved, you would basically be watching a movie. Also Fallout had a lot of player skill involved, actually all the combat decisions where yours. It was up to you if you would like to play a dumb character also dumb in the combat, besides the dialogue options. But then again, you could say that you could aim worse as a roleplaying consequence in DX.
I like the nma community since years, but on the other hand sometimes people start whining about irrelevant facts instead sticking to the important issues.

In the end, this isn't Beth****, it is EM, and as long as I don't get approving material for a dumbed down gameplay I'll stick to trust and see.

binaryboy
5th Oct 2008, 19:30
It's absolutely a 1st person game, with the 3rd person elements happening for a few seconds to show off something cool.

Based on everything I've heard so far and with this clarification, it sounds GREAT!

Laokin
5th Oct 2008, 19:31
I don't recall him saying the word FACT. I took it in the context that he was presenting examples he FELT proved his point. There is no wrong, even if you don't agree with him. Although I did address him, with a full counter argument in my Rikers Locked Down Thread. Like I said I feel, RP doesn't mean stats control your aiming, but they control how you evolve your character, socially, tech, ect.... I no way feel that making the player EXTREMELY inaccurate is the way to go, so you can pump points into stats and eventually have an FPS like experience. You have guns, you have a pointing interface -- let the pointing do the action, not the stats in the character sheet.

Sulix
5th Oct 2008, 19:47
Exactly, I'm also not saying that stats are something bad. But I think it's bad if someone defines an RPG only by the mean of stats. I mean, up till now nobody over here came up with this argument, but on other sites you often get to hear something along these lines. I mean come on, I don't get it why people need this bull**** Diablo Style Gameplay, Grinding par excellence found in nearly every todays MMORPG. Please, at least spare those good old singleplayer-rpg titles, they are not in need of being generic, they have their fixed content for a fixed playtime.
But if you take todays average self declared "Crpg"ler, even a lot of P&P Players, all they can come up with are stats and feats like +10% damage, -5% bla, +10% resistance blablabla.
I hate that kind of content. I really miss the good old times where stats were all about creativity, customizing your gameplay (like for example getting new dialogue options, being more efficient by night, getting more combat feedback), simply, making your char unique, and not better by x% ...

At least I hope DX3 won't take this way.

Laokin
5th Oct 2008, 20:01
Exactly, I'm also not saying that stats are something bad. But I think it's bad if someone defines an RPG only by the mean of stats. I mean, up till now nobody over here came up with this argument, but on other sites you often get to hear something along these lines. I mean come on, I don't get it why people need this bull**** Diablo Style Gameplay, Grinding par excellence found in nearly every todays MMORPG. Please, at least spare those good old singleplayer-rpg titles, they are not in need of being generic, they have their fixed content for a fixed playtime.
But if you take todays average self declared "Crpg"ler, even a lot of P&P Players, all they can come up with are stats and feats like +10% damage, -5% bla, +10% resistance blablabla.
I hate that kind of content. I really miss the good old times where stats were all about creativity, customizing your gameplay (like for example getting new dialogue options, being more efficient by night, getting more combat feedback), simply, making your char unique, and not better by x% ...

At least I hope DX3 won't take this way.

Yeah I 100% agree with you about the notion of rpg's being rpg's and what not. And yeah like I said I don't agree with that guy either, I just think it's quite terrible that a mod had to stoop just as low as him to insult him and bounce. Also, from a programming level though, everything is x%, programming is done by number calculations, but I do agree that they should HIDE the numbers from the player. It gets awfully confusing, then you have the people bent on exploiting the numbers game, and basically ruining the gameplay experience. They do the impractical because they did all the math of every possible combination and they find the one that's the MOST powerful, then they post guides on how to achieve said feat and your uniqueness is out the window. Diablo = prime example, with the Hammerdins and what not. Guildwars suffers the same way, it's not about skill of the players really, it's just about how well the party leader can do math, and then tell people what skills to have active during such and such a fight. (That's why I HATE GW.)

At the same time, people like these kinds of games. They shouldn't stop making them per-say but they should stop taking other titles and conforming them to this style because it's "What's In" at the current moment in gaming.

The trends ruin games, and it's not the dev's it's the upper management that is focused on the bean, or should I say the ALL MIGHTY dollar.

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 21:12
The big problem seems like it's designed more for people who liked Halo than either Deus Ex games. The art style choices seemed nice, but the cover system and recharging health just seem like weak design choices that don't really make sense in the context of the game. I guess it depends on how it's implemented, like say for example you had health packs that recharged lost health but ran out after they were used up or something like that, I guess that could make more sense, but still seem like it would just be limited player choice. As far as cover systems go, it seems like a big fad now that I personally don't care for. Just seems to automate the gameplay too much and takes you out of the view of the player during gameplay. On a related note, I'm glad that Ubisoft didn't include something like that for FC2. I guess the point is, that it should be something that fits into the context of the gameworld, but I mean it's all up to Eidos I guess, but it just seems like a poor design choice that could just alienate fans of RPG games and the large story elements, dialog systems, emphasis on a singleplayer experience, and open endedness would probably just turn off people who like games like Halo, Gears Of War, or Call Of Duty. As I said, it's really up to the publisher to what they want to do with it, but then again, it's up to me to buy it too :P
I don't foresee this turning into a game with people madly hopping through levels, firing massive lasers while fighting aliens. Sorry, I'm just not seeing the Halo-Deus Ex connection. Even slightly. At all.

free2game
5th Oct 2008, 22:08
I don't foresee this turning into a game with people madly hopping through levels, firing massive lasers while fighting aliens. Sorry, I'm just not seeing the Halo-Deus Ex connection. Even slightly. At all.Well Halo was a generic description of console shooters more than anything. My point still stands. These things don't really appeal to fans of RPG games, and more mature FPS games (stalker for example) and the roleplaying elements, open ended levels (though not just something like GTA where you can go around beating up hookers), and dialog choices make it not an item of interest to that market. Leaving it somewhere between RSV/Halo/COD and Deus Ex-SS-Stalker and not satisfyingly the fans of either of those kinds of games, thus getting a lot of bad word of mouth from both of those audiences and probably having a negative sales impact.

Romeo
6th Oct 2008, 00:00
Well Halo was a generic description of console shooters more than anything. My point still stands. These things don't really appeal to fans of RPG games, and more mature FPS games (stalker for example) and the roleplaying elements, open ended levels (though not just something like GTA where you can go around beating up hookers), and dialog choices make it not an item of interest to that market. Leaving it somewhere between RSV/Halo/COD and Deus Ex-SS-Stalker and not satisfyingly the fans of either of those kinds of games, thus getting a lot of bad word of mouth from both of those audiences and probably having a negative sales impact.
Seeing as how the Deus Ex market is very, very limited, a few new people are necessary to ensure the serie's future. And no, a few action elemant does not suddenly turn a game into Halo, Rainbow Six or Call of Duty, because it's RPG elemants are still there, and all of the things that made Deus Ex great are still there. ONE element has been changed, and we haven't even seen how it will be integrated yet.

CarloGervasi
6th Oct 2008, 00:01
The market that would love a game just like the original Deus Ex isn't limited. Thats a myth. Complex RPGs do well all the time. Heck, Deus Ex did well. It's a myth that your game needs to be an action heavy shooter to perform well at EB.

free2game
6th Oct 2008, 02:18
Seeing as how the Deus Ex market is very, very limited, a few new people are necessary to ensure the serie's future. And no, a few action elemant does not suddenly turn a game into Halo, Rainbow Six or Call of Duty, because it's RPG elemants are still there, and all of the things that made Deus Ex great are still there. ONE element has been changed, and we haven't even seen how it will be integrated yet.Never said that. They're in there to appeal to that audience. I don't see how Deus Ex 3's market would be limited as a more tradional game either. It's roleplaying and story elements could appeal to fans of the RPG genre and as per the shooter/RPG market, look at how well Mass Effect and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. sold, both sold near 2 million copies each I believe that's pretty far from a limited market range, but then again, in Mass Effects case it had a large marketing behind it and it seems any M-rated Microsoft published 360 game is guaranteed to sell at least a million copies. If I'm correct also, Invisible War sold about half as much as the original Deus Ex despite having more marketing, higher production values, more streamlined gameplay, and being available on more platforms at release, a good example of how bad middleground could end up, too much depth for the Halo person, not enough depth for the Deus Ex/RPG person. I mean unless you're not obviously going to get COD4 numbers with a Deus Ex game, if you want to do that, and adding a cover system or unneeded recharging health system probably isn't going to make it sell any better and just make the game worse.

Laokin
6th Oct 2008, 03:35
Never said that. They're in there to appeal to that audience. I don't see how Deus Ex 3's market would be limited as a more tradional game either. It's roleplaying and story elements could appeal to fans of the RPG genre and as per the shooter/RPG market, look at how well Mass Effect and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. sold, both sold near 2 million copies each I believe that's pretty far from a limited market range, but then again, in Mass Effects case it had a large marketing behind it and it seems any M-rated Microsoft published 360 game is guaranteed to sell at least a million copies. If I'm correct also, Invisible War sold about half as much as the original Deus Ex despite having more marketing, higher production values, more streamlined gameplay, and being available on more platforms at release, a good example of how bad middleground could end up, too much depth for the Halo person, not enough depth for the Deus Ex/RPG person. I mean unless you're not obviously going to get COD4 numbers with a Deus Ex game, if you want to do that, and adding a cover system or unneeded recharging health system probably isn't going to make it sell any better and just make the game worse.

I fundamentally disagree, adding a cover system makes sense -- period. I for one don't feel that a cover system requires a 3rd person perspective though. The idea of evolution of video games, is to make the player capable of any kind of movement that is actually possible.

For instance, there is a filing cabinet and some one is shooting a .22. You would have a significantly higher % of living if one were to say hide behind said filing cabinet than to stand behind it. What about crouching? Of course! until he runs a lil closer and shoots your arm/side from an odd angle, because you cannot make your profile slimmer against the wall as in real life. This is the sole IDEA of the "Cover System."

You should always be able to press you body against a wall in any game that involves gun play -- It's tried and true in real life, and as such should translate over to virtual life as well. If you are a person who doesn't want a realistic game, then by default you should be against the physics movement as well.

I do think however, that most studios are treating the cover system as a gimmick, and just matching or coming close to the gears of war cover system. Think back to N64, a little game called "WinBack" comes to mind. The first game I can think of that ever had a gears of war style cover system. It did well in games like that and really took years upon years before we saw another integration of it. Flash forward to year 2006, focus on a game by the name Rogue Trooper. This was the next game I ever realized had a cover system, playing this game AFTER gears of war it was obvious..... GEARS was plagiarism. Rogue Trooper was exactly like gears of war, no innovation.... they even stole the grenade marker for throwing grenades, a Blue Hologram Trail that will show you where your grenade will land.

From there it's history. Only issue is every one of these games has been 3rd person, then Vegas -- FPS with TP cover system. Why hasn't anyone done the first person cover system. Blind fire will actually be blind, pushing forward while in cover would peak a little bit over the edge, and pulling the aim trigger would pop you up completely. I see zero issues to this, and while I don't see anything actually wrong with third person cover, I would like to see some one prove it could be done in FP. A game like DX would of been perfect to, as in DX 1, you kinda did with the lean button. It would merely feel like an extension to that... innovative but true in nature and respect to DX, although I can live with TP.

K^2
6th Oct 2008, 04:38
I fundamentally disagree, adding a cover system makes sense -- period. I for one don't feel that a cover system requires a 3rd person perspective though. The idea of evolution of video games, is to make the player capable of any kind of movement that is actually possible.

For instance, there is a filing cabinet and some one is shooting a .22. You would have a significantly higher % of living if one were to say hide behind said filing cabinet than to stand behind it. What about crouching? Of course! until he runs a lil closer and shoots your arm/side from an odd angle, because you cannot make your profile slimmer against the wall as in real life. This is the sole IDEA of the "Cover System."
I'm pretty sure this is the disagreement in definitions.

If you recall, IW already had the system where the arms went in when you moved close to an object. Since DX3, undoubtedly, will sport body awareness, they'll have no choice but to do the same. You will have "cover system", but most people won't call it that, because most people refer to pushing a button to hide behind a scripted object "cover system". And that would be stupid in FPS.

So I'm pretty sure everyone will be happy in the end, when we'll find out that "No cover system" is simply meant lack of special buttons to do stuff you don't need to do in first person.

Laokin
6th Oct 2008, 05:00
Okay take a game with half walls like Gears, then make the walls different sizes in height. They would have to have AMAZING programmers to code context sensitive animations based on proximity alone/angle your looking to get the animations right to keep your head low enough to be concealed. It just doesn't work without a button.... or some one making such a complex code efficient enough to just plug into other games. Body awareness or not, when you crouch, you crouch. Your head doesn't automatically lower to be behind a certain piece of cover. Also, you need a button unless you would wanna play that game auto snapping the animations into cover every time you got near something. It would absolutely work in FP.

Make it so when you push the action key, you still snap to the surface, and the player model realistically leans against the wall just like Gears. Except it's first person so you see your feet and the opposite direction. When you press the peak button, or press forward or what have you, you literally turn your head towards cover and peak over the wall a tiny bit exposing very little. moving left to right would shimmy or slide you down the wall, seeing the ground and your feet and the opposite direction again as you slide acrossed the object. There is nothing wrong with this as when you have no cover system, all you see is the object your hiding behind anyway. All this does is give you the ability to peak above or around without forcing you to use a button, and keeping you concealed. Better than just crouching and having the arms move out of the clipping zone when you get to close. Really, no comparison. I play paintball.... and let me tell you when your head peaks even the slightest you get a nice scare and a loud ding rings your mask. When you play a game like paintball cover is crucial -- just like a real fire fight. Every movie you see do they not use pillars and refrigerators, and flip tables ect.. ect.. to not get shot. Same Principal here.... it WOULD make the game fun, even if it's mostly aesthetic. I believe the word thrown around here is immersion, and if I'm not mistaken, that means to literally make you feel like you, yourself, is actually in that position. Cover makes sense.... it's just executed with poor taste. I mean why do you care so much if you said it yourself... it's not TOO much different, it's basically what we have been doing, but actually allows you to use different objects of different heights and materials to hide behind. Also throw in COD4 Bullet Ballistics.... machine guns Swiss cheese doors in RL, I get suspended in disbelief when an enemy runs behind a wood door, and the wood magically acts just like steel would.

Look at Mirror's edge. Those guys are really proving that you can do things in FP that people have been doing exclusively in TP, for fear it wouldn't work. They just need to add a proper FP context sensitive cover system.

P.S.
Army of Two for 360 has a fully functional cover system where you press no buttons. Crouching does put your head down under the object, except all the objects are the same height. You don't have to crouch to use a wall next to a door and lean out and shoot through the open door while still being pressed to the wall. Since they opted to not use a button... mildly often you will experience glitches, like you snap to cover but the camera is over the wrong shoulder ect ect.... this would not happen in FPS as your physical body doesn't have to get in the way. Just without the button you will always take cover when near objects... which again takes away from immersion in games like DX, when you might be in a bar and walk near the actual bar, and he ducks behind it like he's hiding. Although, they could do it based on having your weapon holstered/drawn.

gargar
6th Oct 2008, 06:34
i have high faith in Deus Ex 3 and i have deep faith in Eidos Montreal. i suggest that everyone should be a bit more open minded.

Jerion
6th Oct 2008, 06:43
After seeing the PCZone thread, I would suggest that people actually try to understand what is being said before going on rants about how DX3 is going to be a Gears of War clone. :rolleyes:

I personally like everything that I'm seeing and hearing. The artistic direction is great, the storyline, what of it I've read so far, seems like it could fit in to the DX world brilliantly. And everything I've heard about the other RPG and FPS aspects of the game, once explained by somebody who actually knows what they're talking about, sound good to me. :)

DXeXodus
6th Oct 2008, 06:49
^^ I agree with you 100%.

dark_angel_7
6th Oct 2008, 07:22
This stuff happens all the time. I remember this type of thing with TRU Mag previews. Magazines end up giving out false info. (e.g. dead character returning) and all hell breaks loose.

In a couple of weeks time we'll have forgotten most of this. Especially as more media comes on in (come on EM!)

Romeo
6th Oct 2008, 08:26
Hehe, as long as it doesn't pull a Gran Turismo or a Fable and go in the wrong direction from the rumors... Hehe.

René
7th Oct 2008, 00:38
Looking for your recent post to this thread? Try this new one instead!

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80830

Now with 30% more fibre!

free2game
14th Nov 2008, 03:54
About the cover system thing too. I don't like that much either. It just automates the game too much and while it makes a lot of sense in a TPS game, I don't think it makes much sense in a first person one. Especially if you're trying to engage the player, not breaking them out of that view point and not really babying them. Too much of that stuff and it just makes the game feel more passive than engaging.

Jerion
14th Nov 2008, 12:43
About the cover system thing too. I don't like that much either. It just automates the game too much and while it makes a lot of sense in a TPS game, I don't think it makes much sense in a first person one. Especially if you're trying to engage the player, not breaking them out of that view point and not really babying them. Too much of that stuff and it just makes the game feel more passive than engaging.

I'm not so sure about that. Aside Liberty Island, name one part of DX 1 where you actually remained well and truly hidden by being in a shadow instead of being behind cover or out of the enemy field of view.

Mindmute
14th Nov 2008, 17:42
I'm not so sure about that. Aside Liberty Island, name one part of DX 1 where you actually remained well and truly hidden by being in a shadow instead of being behind cover or out of the enemy field of view.

I hid five feet away from two MJ12 Commandos and one MiB, right in front of them while "obscured" by shadow from one of the buildings... (Area51, before the Bunker)
I was actually disappointed when that worked and they didn't shoot me...

K^2
14th Nov 2008, 18:09
Okay take a game with half walls like Gears, then make the walls different sizes in height. They would have to have AMAZING programmers to code context sensitive animations based on proximity alone/angle your looking to get the animations right to keep your head low enough to be concealed.
Why not let the player control it? I mean, when you are trying to hide in a real world, it's not like there is some magical algorithm that takes control of your body and forces you to duck low enough to be concealed.

All you are trying to do is keep yourself out of the enemy's line of sight, which is generally the same line of sight that you have. So check your own line of sight, and duck lower. Adding some buttons to control how low you duck/crouch would be a good idea to any stealth-based FPS, IMO. In fact, it could be one button which, while depressed, switches mouse to control posture rather than view angle.

GmanPro
14th Nov 2008, 18:50
Yeah, I don't like the idea of having a "stealth-mode" in DX3.

I don't want to press a button and engage cover-stealth-mode. I just want to crouch behind some crates and move slowly to avoid detection. A lot less restricted that way.

JakePeriphery
15th Nov 2008, 13:28
I thought it was cool when you went into a 3rd person mode during conversations.

And Gears of War is probably the worst game I've ever played. With a protagonist that has a name like "Marcus Fenix" and a chainsaw on a high caliber rifle, uggggh what a travesty.

Torley
15th Nov 2008, 17:49
Passionate Deus Ex fans can help by providing accuracy where they see errors — don't let the lame/lazy rumors go unanswered.

free2game
19th Nov 2008, 10:34
I'm not so sure about that. Aside Liberty Island, name one part of DX 1 where you actually remained well and truly hidden by being in a shadow instead of being behind cover or out of the enemy field of view.

I think you're dodging the point I made about over-doing automation, breaking immersion, and babying the player. It just doesn't make much sense in a first person game like this. I know I'm just go gamer, but I have been gaming for 15 some odd years, and I know about things like this. Developers make these kind of mistakes too much. Trying to imitate features from popular games and such. The point isn't about hiding behind cover, the point is about breaking the player away from having to hide his or her self and just pressing a button to do it for them.

i_is_a_moose
19th Nov 2008, 19:51
Accept it? Why the hell should we accept it? There's no reason a Deus Ex-esque game could not be created today. It would be a risk, yes - it was a risk in 2000 as well. I do not have to accept the devolution of artistic integrity into mediocrity that has defined the 00s. It's your duty to oppose it.They deserve to? Well we'll agree that legally, they have the right. But who gives a **** about that? I'd like to think we lived in a world where people determine whether or not something truly belongs to them, on terms that are a little more meaningful than legal documentation. Let's get this clear. Deus Ex does not belong to EM in any meaningful sense, although the law would say it does, that is no meaningful sense.

If I picked up a project like this I would never have the *hubris* and audacity to consider myself in a position to know better what it is that defines Deus Ex than those who created it. I would change little simply because it is clear to me when I'm in a position where others would know better. It's a damn privilege to be handed a Universe like Deus Ex for a debut title.
Stripping out game play elements unforeseen since Deus Ex and replacing them with ones lifted directly out of games currently in stores is NOT "innovashun".Recall that combat simplification was not the only problem Invisible War had. Changes to combat were a symptom of a larger shift in design philosophy that also resulted in similarly simplified characters, setting and narrative.

He's a consultant - not a writer. I guess they felt that they had someone better than Sheldon Palcotti. Wouldn't surpise me if they hired him to quell the fears of the small rabble of hardcore fans, in order to sell to these as well as the majority sixteen year old XBOX market.

I like how this has devolved from a legitimate discussion to railing about creatvity license in the worst kind of way. Personally, I see no fault in the writers/developers trying to create something different, while honoring the foundations Ion Storm created. Dues Ex shaped my gaming life, and I'm interested to see how it was interpreted by others. If DX3 turns out amazing, and rips all our faces off, fine, if not, the original is still around, and amazing.

ZylonBane
19th Nov 2008, 20:06
Personally, I see no fault in the writers/developers trying to create something different
Why the hell should they be trying to do something different? I can count all the DX-like games that I know of on one hand. The subgenre of first-person action-RPG is already so woefully underrepresented that seeking to deviate from it is to entirely miss the point.

Lazarus Ledd
19th Nov 2008, 20:48
In PC title White Gold the stealth system is based around sight vision and sound hearing. Around that you play with the reaction of the enemies.

Yerky
20th Nov 2008, 03:40
Thomasaquinas, if they make a crap game then they make a crap game. You can get all butt hurt about it if you want but Eidos doesn't owe you anything. Clearly, the world we live in is nothing like the world you'd like to think we live in. And, judging by your attitude in this thread, if you were to pick up a project like this I can only imagine it turning to trash.

free2game
21st Nov 2008, 02:04
I like how this has devolved from a legitimate discussion to railing about creatvity license in the worst kind of way. Personally, I see no fault in the writers/developers trying to create something different, while honoring the foundations Ion Storm created. Dues Ex shaped my gaming life, and I'm interested to see how it was interpreted by others. If DX3 turns out amazing, and rips all our faces off, fine, if not, the original is still around, and amazing.It doesn't really look like as much different as the same as what everyone else is doing to appeal to the large casual shooter crowd, that was something that didn't work out for DXIW. At the rate it's going, it could just be too different for DX fans, too shooter for the RPG fans, and too much talking and dialogue choices for the shooter fans. One big appeal that Bioshock had to that casual Halo market was that it was a shooter that felt different, but wasn't really much more than a linear shooter in an unique setting. Big story driven games don't interest that audience much (as much as the obscene amount of Halo fan fiction says otherwise), so doing a game that has a large player involving story will just alienate them. Maybe something like Mass Effect could be successful and have a lot of dialogue, but you have to remember that was behind two large marketing machines and powerful word of mouth campaigns (Xbox exclusive and Bioware). Adding in things like automated RSV like cover and recharging health just alienates a lot of the hardcore PC shooter and RPG fans that this kind of game would really appeal to. What you're left with is something hard to market and too grey to appeal to either demographic you're trying to hit. This isn't Call Of Duty, it's more niche, and you should keep that in mind, negative world of mouth can kill things really quickly.

Jerion
21st Nov 2008, 02:10
At the rate some people on this forum are going, negative word of mouth could crucify this game before it's even finished.