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Azazel_reborn
16th Jan 2014, 00:15
I, unlike some people, like the artistic direction this game has gone with but I have kind of felt like the Razielim resemble the Hylden. Anyone else feel the same?

biribobili
16th Jan 2014, 00:19
The heads on some of the Razielim models look like the bone-structure on the Hyldens' skulls. I thought this too.

VikingVern
16th Jan 2014, 03:41
Well if it was done intentionally I would think that its because there is a touch of connection between raziel and the hilden. Even in defiance there was confusion with the characters between who was the hilden champion and the vamp champion implying the hilden could have chosen raziel to be there savior. And I like to think that maybe they even influenced his physical evolution a little bit over the millennia. Other wise when it comes to their head structure its due to the razielim wearing masks to strike fear instead of grotesque feelings into there enemies. Maybe best case sinerio is that they even wear these masks that resemble hilden due to what I just mentioned before.

Azazel_reborn
16th Jan 2014, 05:34
That makes a lot of sense now! To be honest i've read all the blogs on the Razielim and somehow missed the fact that they wear masks! lol

RainaAudron
18th Jan 2014, 16:31
Raziel is not related to the Hylden. He was the champion of both races not because he would be directly related to them, but because he was destined to help them both. Neither of the race could see what he looked like ("Raziel is shrouded from us") so they naturally interpreted he would be of their kind.

Reidbynature
18th Jan 2014, 22:20
I think it's fair to say that the Razielim seeming a bit Hylden-like has been said since they were first unveiled. Hopefully that can be corrected before the game is released.

Sluagh
19th Jan 2014, 10:32
I think having them vaguely Hylden-ish is no bad thing. I mean, whether Raziel is strictly related to them or not, it gives their aesthetic a certain connection with the past; it's sort of a cruel twist that the next winged race coming into the world look a bit like the Ancients' sworn adversaries.

diuqSehT
21st Jan 2014, 22:04
There probably should be a real connection between Raziel's ruined look and his status as the hylden champion. Like, when the hylden claimed his soul as the soul of their species' last best hope, fate shifted his appearance to more closely resemble them. It'd tie in with Janos not understanding Raziel's ruined appearance (because that wasn't part of the vampire plan and only happened when the hylden hacked into Raziel's fate and made it "more labarynthine" than the vampires had foreseen). So, if Raziel was hylden-altered, that could be expected to filter down to his brood too. Raz's death was a sacrifice to Hash (the hylden). And we know his death wasn't really an end but a beginning. It was what rebirthed him as both species champions. So from then on the evolution of the razielim may have been gunked up, merged with hylden-ish devolution.

Fixed !

Sataine
22nd Jan 2014, 15:14
There probably should be a real connection between Raziel's ruined look and his status as the hylden champion. Like, when the hylden claimed his soul as the soul of their species' last best hope, fate shifted his appearance to more closely resemble them. It'd tie in with Janos not understanding Raziel's ruined appearance (because that wasn't part of the vampire plan and only happened when the hylden hacked into Raziel's fate and made it "more labarynthine" than the vampires had foreseen). So, if Raziel was hylden-altered, that could be expected to filter down to his brood too. Raz's death was a sacrifice to Hash (the hylden). And we know his death wasn't really an end but a beginning. It was what rebirthed him as both species champions. So from then on the evolution of the razielim may have been gunked up, merged with hylden-ish devolution.

Fixed !

Extremely confused on what you are referring to. Raziel's reaver look is due to centuries of water burning away his flesh like "white hot fire." Not to mention he doesn't even remotely resemble a Hylden. Try as I might, I can't seem to recall anything you speak of occurring in the games. It is clear in the painting that the Hylden did not even know what Raziel would look like and, naturally, depicted their Champion as a Hylden.

Lastly, all I see on the Razielim are helmets or masks. And those masks don't resemble Hylden to me. And the bodies seem to be in a state of devolution similar to Raziel's bretheren as seen in Soul Reaver. So, again, I'm confused on where this Hylden connection is coming from.

Xerosigma
22nd Jan 2014, 16:49
Considering the vampirism came from the Hylden to begin with and that fact that Kain birthed all the tribes during the corruption of the pillars, it's not far-fetched to assume the Blood Curse would result in Hylden-like mutations.

As the pillars decayed more and more the mutations of the tribes seems to have become more frequent. This was probably the play form the get-go.

Long story short, the offspring of Kain is more or less part Hylden anyway so it's not surprising to see similarities.

Sataine
22nd Jan 2014, 17:31
Considering the vampirism came from the Hylden to begin with and that fact that Kain birthed all the tribes during the corruption of the pillars, it's not far-fetched to assume the Blood Curse would result in Hylden-like mutations.

As the pillars decayed more and more the mutations of the tribes seems to have become more frequent. This was probably the play form the get-go.

Long story short, the offspring of Kain is more or less part Hylden anyway so it's not surprising to see similarities.

From my understanding of the lore, the Blood Curse is a spell of sorts. How would that directly tie in with the genealogical makeup of the Hylden? They didn't bite vampires to pass it on. They created it.

Xerosigma
22nd Jan 2014, 19:40
From my understanding of the lore, the Blood Curse is a spell of sorts. How would that directly tie in with the genealogical makeup of the Hylden? They didn't bite vampires to pass it on. They created it.

I don't recall there being any specifics on the matter, but the Blood Curse, be it spell or pathogen, clearly augments the anatomy for it to do what it does (sterilize, create dependence on blood, rapid evolution, etc.).

Another fact is that it can be passed onto another. It was passed onto Kain by Mortanius via the heart of Yanos Audren. Furthurmore the ancients would pass the curse onto humans when they became guardians of the pillars.

Last but not least, the lore is pretty clear to point out that once the humans over through the vampires and managed the pillars without being passed the blood curse, the pillars began to corrode.

One could only speculate it was because they lost some magical or genealogical connection to the ancients that was most likely being passed with the Blood Curse.


This ties into why everyone wanted Kain dead. Kain refusing the blood sacrifice to the pillars actually saved them. Had he died, there would have been nothing to stop the Hylden from escaping.

The ancients must have known the binding they used on the Hylden would eventually fade without them and since they were sterile, used the Blood Curse to sustain them.

Sataine
22nd Jan 2014, 20:13
Alright, I get that. Still doesn't quite make sense of why vampire evolution and devolution should resemble the Hylden.

diuqSehT
22nd Jan 2014, 20:33
Extremely confused on what you are referring to.
I said it in a jumbled way too, and this probably won't be much clearer, but here goes:

There is no official connection between Raz & hylden evolution, but I was saying that one could be added now if these Razielim are reminding people of hyldens and folks are looking for a way to explain that. Raz was ruined by water, yes, but also his death qualifies as a sacrifice to Hashakgik (~ give me your first born or I will cover the world in blood). If Hashakgik (the hyldens) somehow accepted that sacrifice and that's why they began grabbing at Raziel to make him their champion, then maybe there was a deep shift in Raz that'd effect his brood too. The hylden are being ruined in hell's energies, warped the way Raziel's been deformed in the lake, like that was his initiation ceremony to hylden-hood. And look at the way Kain reacted to Raz's wings. Jealousy (the story he let the lieutenants believe), and the chronoplast knowledge motivated Kain to tear those wings off. But you could also say Kain had an instinctive reaction to how HYLDENY those wings looked. More like the bat-ish wings we see on hylden shoulders than the feathered bird wings of the ancient vampires. Officially that's explained by saying the necro curse made the wings more batlike, but it'd be easy to say Raz was leaning toward the hylden with the evolution of those wings and Kain had a deep-seated instinctive reaction to tear them off----just like it'd be easy to imagine vampires tore off hylden wings for centuries and that's why hylden wings look like incomplete remnants on their shoulders in Defiance. That'd be another "proof" that Raz was the hylden champ by destiny because they'd hacked into his destiny somehow. Oh well, It's still confusing this time too. Sorry!

Xerosigma
22nd Jan 2014, 20:36
Alright, I get that. Still doesn't quite make sense of why vampire evolution and devolution should resemble the Hylden.

What should they resemble? Vampires are only humans carrying the Hylden Blood Curse.

I personally believe that Kain represents a perfect union of Human, Ancient, and Hylden.

He is the Scion of Balance after all.

YourWaywardDestiny
22nd Jan 2014, 22:19
On a purely speculative and artistic level, I would say I rather like the mild resemblance the Razilim have to the Hylden. If I were to curse a hated enemy, I might curse them to see my face as a nice little kick every time they're feeling down. Not only was the curse designed to separate the ancient Vampires from their god and to make them monsters who lust for the blood of the living, but on top of that, they get to look at one another and see the face of the people who did this to them.

Not that that is supported in ANY fashion, but I do like the notion and the speculation regardless.

Sataine
23rd Jan 2014, 15:19
What should they resemble? Vampires are only humans carrying the Hylden Blood Curse.

I personally believe that Kain represents a perfect union of Human, Ancient, and Hylden.

He is the Scion of Balance after all.

I'm just failing to see how people correlate a curse created by the Hylden to be one that transforms the victims to resemble the Hylden. That just makes no sense unless, like Destiny said, they specifically designed it to do so for a bit of irony.

Ygdrasel
24th Jan 2014, 09:32
The LoK wiki notes that when consuming Turel's soul, Raziel also took in "Hylden energy"...Not sure on the accuracy or reliability of that but it could have caused such mutations over time...Of course, he did that long after his clan's death but depending on the time period he was in at the time, it could have had some time-travely retroactive effects.

All speculation and nonsense, of course. The boring reality is "coincidence and subjective perception". But the speculation is more interesting.

Lord_Aevum
24th Jan 2014, 16:17
The LoK wiki notes that when consuming Turel's soul, Raziel also took in "Hylden energy"...Not sure on the accuracy or reliability of that

It's not trustworthy, since the wiki is currently being administrated by a group of hacks, but it is accurate. Please note these official scene directions from Defiance:

"Turel dies, and his soul energy flies out of him, into Raziel. Raziel is blasted by the energy as it streams into him. Hylden energy flows out of Turel and into Raziel as well. This energy hits Raziel differently, and he reacts as he absorbs it, doubling over. As he straightens up, his eyes briefly burn with green fire, then fade back to normal."

"Kain arrives at the entrance of the Cathedral. He is immediately confronted by Raziel, whose eyes periodically glow green."

The_Hylden
24th Jan 2014, 23:28
However, Raziel does this in his future, even though it happens in the past. Meaning, the Raziel of this era is still burning in the Abyss, so has no Hylden souls consumed, and thus has no bearing on the Razielim's evolution/devolution at this stage. He won't wake up for a few centuries.

Regardless, the Hylden souls, at that time he consumed them, only seemed to hold on in influence long enough to add to Raziel's rage at Kain. I don't think they literally melded with him.

Nor do I think the curse has any traits of Hylden genetics/physical characteristics with it. As Daniel Cabuco notes, Kain's evolution to what we see now came about by way of influence of his sheer will and ambition to be ruler of Nosgoth. It wound up that Kain has a golden body with a crown of bone. The crown does not represent a Hylden crown, nor any synergy between the species.