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View Full Version : Story elements. Questions and thoughts about about the era and kains dissapearance.



VikingVern
15th Jan 2014, 03:52
For anyone who has the slightest bit of knowledge of story appearing in the game. Im not sure if this has been talked about already.
I know this game wont have a story mode like origionally planned and I know of the lore information pages posted on here, but Im confused so i have a few questions about things like kains disappearance in this era.

1 So does this takes place before or after sr1?
2 I know the lore page talks about razils transgression but it looks as if it takes place before the clan vamps and their leaders devolved, right?
3 If this is after sr1 when kain timestreamed why does it not seem the clan leaders have been killed yet by raziel?
3.5 or is this during the time shortly after raz was thrown into the abyss?
4 Did kain go on a time sreaming journey not revealed in the other games during this time before sr1 or something?
4.5 or did he simply become reclusive or go into hiding in this era for some reason?
5 Does anyone know if there will be an intro scene in the game explaining the lore so far?
6 Does anyone know if there will be a simple element included such as a prophecy or rumor amongst the inhabitants of nosgoth about kains return?

I think they should have gone with a game about clan war in an era after sr1 like originally planned explaining kains disappearance (and maybe kains possible return) with an intro scene (forshadowing a possible hope of franchise continuation), since it would make sence with the story in the other games. But sence that dosent seem to be the case any thoughts about kains disappearance would be appreciated.

Vrykolakas
15th Jan 2014, 04:08
1: 'Nosgoth' is based soon after Raziel was cast into the abyss in the SR1 timeline, maybe 100-200 years after Raziel was thrown in.

2:Since this game doesn't show any of the lieutenants, it is unknown how far along they've devolved. We can only estimate from the appearance of their spawn, so it is probably doubtful that they devolved that badly at this point in time.

3: answered in question 1.

3.5: answered in question 1.

4: Unknown.

5: Not that I know of.

6: Doubtful.

TheIrtar
15th Jan 2014, 06:45
#4 was answered in the Q&A. Yes, Kain used a time streaming device to skip ahead to the future.

Monkeythumbz
15th Jan 2014, 09:58
If you read all the blogs linked to through this post in the forum (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7221), then all your questions should be answered.

We've tried to be explicit as possible. Please note that Raziel is in the Abyss for close to a millennium and Nosgoth is set a few centuries after his supposed execution, but still long before his resurrection as a wraith.

VikingVern
15th Jan 2014, 10:07
Vrykolkas; I guess one thing that added to my confusion was from an announcement trailer, http://youtu.be/xyRs5D03xVQ at 3:02 when he said it takes place "after the events that kick off the original soul reaver" I guess he ment after the first cutscene of that game. Btw does your name stand for anything?
Monkeythumbz; Thanks Ill read up in that link you posted right now.

TheIrtar; Thanks, I guess kain using the time streaming device from that era to go further in time is indeed a simple answer for them to come up with that works. Hmm I like it alot, I guess it would explaine his lack of devolution in the sr1 era which is something ive allways wondered about.
Maybe this is me being a jackass but I cant find a Q&A section in these forums, did you mean the FAQ section?
Is there a specific link you can provide if its from an external source so that I can read up on it?

Monkeythumbz
15th Jan 2014, 10:26
Maybe this is me being a jackass but I cant find a Q&A section in these forums, did you mean the FAQ section?
Is there a specific link you can provide if its from an external source so that I can read up on it?

Please refer to this blog post: Watch the Recording of our Live Community Q&A Session Here (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/watch-the-recording-of-our-live-community-q-a-session-here)

VikingVern
15th Jan 2014, 10:47
Thanks Monkeythumbz I was on track to finding that Q&A vid just now. Its something I noticed on youtube before but wasn't able to set aside an hour to watch it, but since you just confirmed that it answers the questions I just asked and more im going to watch it right now. Thanks again everybody. Vae Victis!

RainaAudron
15th Jan 2014, 11:04
I also have the Q&A in a written form if you are interested, which will be available soon on my blog.

Vampmaster
15th Jan 2014, 12:27
I also have the Q&A in a written form if you are interested, which will be available soon on my blog.

I planned to update this thread (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7282) with that info if anyone got around to writing it up. I don't have editing rights to it since the hylden made it a sticky, but maybe you could include the info there?

VikingVern
16th Jan 2014, 03:54
Hey MonkeyThumbz are you George Kelion from the Q&A vid I watched last night?
BTW im more excited for this game now not just because of the awesome looking gameplay
but also cause of the story element of kain time streaming to the future that was discussed above.
It adds a little something that ties up an interesting loophole or two that i didn't even think about before.

Monkeythumbz
16th Jan 2014, 13:34
Hey MonkeyThumbz are you George Kelion from the Q&A vid I watched last night?
Yes, that's me!


BTW im more excited for this game now not just because of the awesome looking gameplay
but also cause of the story element of kain time streaming to the future that was discussed above.
It adds a little something that ties up an interesting loophole or two that i didn't even think about before.
Glad to hear it! We're doing everything we can with Nosgoth to respect the pre-established atmosphere and canon of the Legacy of Kain series while ensuring the game - which is obviously very different to what's come before in terms of gameplay - is as fun as possible. Super fun and compelling moment-to-moment gameplay is our primary focus with Nosgoth, so we hope you enjoy the game!

VikingVern
18th Jan 2014, 07:32
That's awesome. And might I add its nice to talk with someone directly involved with square enix. Its exciting im sure your sort of an up and coming voice/gaming celebrity around here. I hope you have a long and fruitfull career.

Anyway since I have the attention of the sels community manager I was hoping you can indulge me with an answer to a curiosity of mine?
Having been Very minorly involved with the start of the franchise myself long ago i particularly understand that its way too early for you to possibly divulge any details of the question im about to ask.
But never the less with your position as being liaison between the community and the project I was hopeing that you can answer with a simple YES or NO.
Anyway, I assume theres no plans yet but are there any possible ideas that you guys could be having about a nosgoth 2 or anything of that sort within lok, if nosgoth does well?

The_Hylden
18th Jan 2014, 13:27
TheIrtar; Thanks, I guess kain using the time streaming device from that era to go further in time is indeed a simple answer for them to come up with that works. Hmm I like it alot, I guess it would explaine his lack of devolution in the sr1 era which is something ive allways wondered about.

That actually was answered in a different way by Amy Hennig and CD years ago that Kain was not affected by the corruption in the same way as the vampires he sired. So, even is he had waiting around every second of the thousand years, he shouldn't have devolved into a beastly form like the others ... or at least not anywhere as severe.

RainaAudron
19th Jan 2014, 14:37
Ok, finally done: http://theancientsden.blogspot.sk/2014/01/nosgoth-live-q-transcript-published.html

Enigmuss
20th Jan 2014, 02:13
Monkeythumbz...Nice story background on Nosgoth for this era. However, my question is this. Didn't Kain timestream before he had Raziel executed? Kain has on a few occasions eluded to the fact that he cast Raziel to his doom because he understood the outcome of his actions that would come to pass (i.e. Raziel becoming the spirit trapped inside of the Soul Reaver and interfering with his merger to the blade to "keep the coin turning").

GeorgeCST
20th Jan 2014, 08:14
Kain was clearly there when Raziel was executed, that's in the SR1 opening cinematic. Perhaps he had some knowledge of the vampire prophecies, that's why he keeps saying that he killed Raziel for a reason and that he "knew the outcome" - which he didn't because not even at the end of Defiance did he know what Raziel really was.

lakdav
20th Jan 2014, 09:26
It may be worth to note that whatever Kain saw in the timestream, whatever he learned of the past and the future it was probably a vision in the chronoplast chamber. As such, it might have been manipulated by Moebius from millenia before he actually saw it. Not just the actual vision, but history itself. It is still unclear how far exactly Time Guardians can come and go through history, if they have any limit at all.

And if Moebius had a limit in what eras he could twist to his needs, the Elder God definetly dont have those limits. He seems to exist inside and outside the timestream as well, seeing how he knows exactly what is going on when Raziel excercises his free will and changes the flow of history (SR2 dialogues).

So in the end, did Kain know exactly why he cast Raziel into the Abyss? Did he know before he did it? After? Even in the moment he did it? Possible, but its more reasonable to assume that he just knew that it has to be done through all the visions and variations of history seen in the chronoplast. Just as Kain's refusal at the Pillars, Raziels fall into the Abyss was an unmutable part of history that could not be changed.

Vampmaster
20th Jan 2014, 10:15
Kain mentions that he's seen the different paths and streams history could possible take. I believe this is a real vision of one of those, albeit one that Moebius wanted to happen and that Kain wished to change. I think Kain knew Raziel had to be thrown into the abyss to achieve free will and that he would have learned from looking into the chronoplast.

biribobili
20th Jan 2014, 14:50
What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would he still have done it anyway if he didn't already know?LEVQ2oOOofE

Vampmaster
20th Jan 2014, 14:58
It would be a fatal paradox for him not to, because it would negate the existence of the Soul Reaver.

biribobili
20th Jan 2014, 15:26
It was a joke :) It would've falsified the prophecies as well. It also raises the question, did the Ancients and Hylden see the future and make those prophecies, or did the prophecies become self-fulfilling when Kain and Raziel read them like an instruction manual?

lakdav
20th Jan 2014, 18:33
Its possible if Kain would not have cast Raziel into the Abyss that Raziel, as proud as he might have been, would have grown bold enough to actually try to usurp Kain's position when he evolved even further. ... Or he might have just slipped on that pedestal after wobbling home from the Sanctuary of the Clans after an over the top drinking night with his brothers.

Sataine
20th Jan 2014, 19:23
As arrogant and vain as vampire Raziel was, he was still intensely and passionately loyal to Kain. I don't think he would have attempted to usurp him at all. But I suppose that is something Amy Hennig would know and we would not. ;)

Monkeythumbz
20th Jan 2014, 21:16
Anyway, I assume theres no plans yet but are there any possible ideas that you guys could be having about a nosgoth 2 or anything of that sort within lok, if nosgoth does well?

We're always talking. ;)

Perversor
20th Jan 2014, 22:34
Kain mentions that he's seen the different paths and streams history could possible take. I believe this is a real vision of one of those, albeit one that Moebius wanted to happen and that Kain wished to change. I think Kain knew Raziel had to be thrown into the abyss to achieve free will and that he would have learned from looking into the chronoplast.

I always understood it as Kain prepared everything so the history repeat itself until Raziel kills his past self with the soul reaver.

Kain created or followed the Paradox of Raziel killing the Sarafans (then raising them itself as liutenants) and expected until the very last moment when time attempted to fix itself to change the course, and for 1st time allow Raziel to act with Free will (remember at the end of Sr2 Kain is scared of all the knowledge he suddenly learn due the new timeline and tries to wanr Raziel)

Also in Sr3 Raziel actions are absolutely new and unpredictable for Kain, since for the first time Raziel free will can help him fix or end his Destiny wich is the things he sought after (he Seems unsure to believe that killing himself would restore the pillars and thus looks for a way to free himself of that)

VikingVern
21st Jan 2014, 01:47
We're always talking. ;)

Cool :)

lakdav
21st Jan 2014, 14:34
I always understood it as Kain prepared everything so the history repeat itself until Raziel kills his past self with the soul reaver.

Kain created or followed the Paradox of Raziel killing the Sarafans (then raising them itself as liutenants) and expected until the very last moment when time attempted to fix itself to change the course, and for 1st time allow Raziel to act with Free will (remember at the end of Sr2 Kain is scared of all the knowledge he suddenly learn due the new timeline and tries to wanr Raziel)

Also in Sr3 Raziel actions are absolutely new and unpredictable for Kain, since for the first time Raziel free will can help him fix or end his Destiny wich is the things he sought after (he Seems unsure to believe that killing himself would restore the pillars and thus looks for a way to free himself of that)

Kain could not have assured that Raziel will kill the Sarafan priests, simply because there was a change in history when Raziel refused to kill Kain in Williams Chapel in SR2. Him killing the sarafan priests was possibly preordained. The original timeline as Moebius constructed it was that Raziel kills Kain at the time they get to in SR2 (30 years before Kains birth), and then Raziel (possibly as a reward or whatever) set a course to the era when the Sarafan kills Janos. He was supposed to try to get back the heart of darkness, kill the sarafan priests, then be consumed by the Reaver. That last part is the only part that changed due to Kain's survival, and so it introduced a second paradox.

Note: If Kain hadnt convinced Raziel, he would have killed him right at the Pillars where they first meet in SR2. That dialogue moved Raz to investigate the era and the vampire history further. Sooo... i assume if Raz killed Kain there, it would have been Moebius who would have manipulated him going back to the sarafan age. It was all a great game of manipulating the only creature who could choose, and Kain and Moebius (and the Elder God) each had their turns of infuencing Raziel.

Sataine
22nd Jan 2014, 15:28
I always understood it as Kain prepared everything so the history repeat itself until Raziel kills his past self with the soul reaver.

Kain created or followed the Paradox of Raziel killing the Sarafans (then raising them itself as liutenants) and expected until the very last moment when time attempted to fix itself to change the course, and for 1st time allow Raziel to act with Free will (remember at the end of Sr2 Kain is scared of all the knowledge he suddenly learn due the new timeline and tries to wanr Raziel)

Also in Sr3 Raziel actions are absolutely new and unpredictable for Kain, since for the first time Raziel free will can help him fix or end his Destiny wich is the things he sought after (he Seems unsure to believe that killing himself would restore the pillars and thus looks for a way to free himself of that)

Since when did Soul Reaver 3 occur? Because I've apparently missed out on a sixth entry unbeknownst to me.