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jestdoit
13th Jan 2014, 23:39
So I'm done with my shopping list and I've spent a lot of time trying to make everything work. Some things are noticeably underpowered in the metagame. Here's my list of suggested buffs:


I've spent by far the most time with the Reaver, trying to develop an effective playstyle. He's the least threatening vampire. Everything he can do, the other two are better at. Tyrants and sentinels are better at crowd control, stunning, doing damage, and getting away. Sentinels are much better at separating/disabling players in every situation. I used to think he was the best at skirmishing and removing camping players, but his tactics just aren't effective against skilled humans compared to the others. He has a hard time making things happen, and has no way to harass without putting himself at heavy risk.

Reaver melee: Doesn't cover enough distance. Lots of problems catching players sprinting directly away. This makes no sense to me when he's a ground based/attack speed character, yet the sentinel is far more mobile with flying, while also surpassing the reaver at ground-based chasing (not saying sentinel melee is OP, but reaver melee is lacking). Uncharged attacks should cover slightly more ground (just a few steps). Lower his maximum charge time, and make his distance/damage ramp up more quickly while charging.

Shadow Bomb:
Doesn't do enough. Too easy to see around the edges, and sometimes you can peer directly through the smoke. The smoke doesn't last long enough. The AOE isn't large enough. You can still see teammate outlines and nametags through the smoke, thus accurately judging where vampires are (especially on pounced players). Humans still get hit marker confirmation when shooting through smoke, so you can spam shots to find vampires. Increase AOE and duration by 20%, remove the ability to see human outlines/nametags, and remove the hit confirmation if possible.

Choking haze:
No longer synergizes with CC like pounce/savage pounce - pounced players take no damage from outside sources. This is a massive nerf to reavers in low to mid-level play where that tactic was viable. Experienced players aren't threatened by it. Takes too long to detonate. The problem is no one decent will stand in it, and if they're forced to cross it, they'll just roll and be out immediately, taking maybe 120 damage. 22s CD, increase starting tick damage, halve the detonation time.

Pounce/Savage Pounce/Leap Attack: Reavers should be able to activate skills during the backflip/jumpoff animation after successfully landing pounce/savage/leap. Reavers are punished too hard for doing the right thing, getting gibbed during their jumpoff animation. With this change, they can now activate an escape, or throw a bomb right after jumping off an opponent, instead of having to wait an entire second for the landing animation to finish.

Leap attack:
Distance based damage ramps up sooner. Successfully landing a leap lowers its CD. The further you leap from, the lower its CD. This makes the reaver a more effective skirmisher - right now he spends too much time either waiting for cooldowns, or health regen. High level games can feel like you're just hiding the entire match.

Savage pounce:
Distance damage doesn't kick in soon enough. The reward for the difficulty of landing savage pounce just isn't there. Difficult skillshots are still netting just the base 325 dmg. A short range savage pounce has the difficulty of a medium-long range regular pounce. The damage should start ramping up sooner, starting from just outside of point-blank range. Lower the CD by 1 second.

Haste/Enrage:
These can be fun in pubs, but I think vampires without a CC break are a huge liability to the team in the metagame. They'd be more viable if they broke CC. The duration is also too short - extending the duration by 1.5s seems about right.

Marathon/Charge:
Extra 15 degrees/s of rotation on charge. Extra 10 degrees/s for marathon. They're too easy to avoid, and the tyrants get shot to hell coming in. Players should want to juke and roll more to avoid these, rather than just sidestep while shooting.

Jump attack:
Too easy to predict and avoid, the locations a tyrant can jump from is a bit too situational. Tyrant gets shot to hell coming in, then people just roll away if he isn't knocked down. Initial movement before activating the skill should impart momentum, controlling its overall arc. Back+jump gets you a much closer jump at 1/3 the current distance, neutral jump = 1/2 distance, forward jump = standard jump distance, sprint + jump = long range jump. An alternative would be to add more air control while rising, so you can modify the landing point by the distance of an additional roll (or two).

Drop attacks/air attacks:
Vampires have an extremely hard time hitting players on height variations, especially people moving off ledges. Humans can attack in the air, from range - vampires can't. Vampire attack angles are very predictable and limited, even when they have a seemingly perfect setup. Introduce a mid-air melee attack, that lets vampires get the drop on humans.

Vampire air control/roll distance control:
Again, the locked jump animations and lack of air control make vampires easy to predict/hit, while limiting their offense. Vampires should have more control over where they land, because their melee attacks require very good positioning (unlike humans which just shoot/focus fire from everywhere, at any time). Currently, rolling in melee to juke or avoid CC, will often put vampires far outside of range to attack again (particularly hard on tyrants and reavers). Vampires should be able to control their roll distance, having the ability to shorten their roll distance by holding back (or the direction opposite of the roll).

Flamethrower:
It feels like a candle, lacking both power and range. Easily interrupted by CC. Can't attack with primary gun during flamethrower. There's really no reason to ever take this over firewall. It should have more range, matching the graphic, and even extending beyond that. While firewall is great at killing vampires point blank/tanking, and also running away, extending the range of flamethrower would make it an alternative for chasing/range fighting. The damage could also use a boost (though not to the level of firewall), since you can't attack with your primary during flamethrower.

Oroibahazopi
14th Jan 2014, 00:00
Not sure giving cc break to enrage or haste will do much. Assuming you mean a one off cc break on activation.

Currently the only reason Evasion and Endure pain works is because Evasion makes it impossible for bloa etc to hit you and Endure pain just lets you tank everything. With endure pain you can still be bola'd after the initial activation, although yeah it lets you ignore stuns for the duration.

Giving stun immunity to those abilities, haste and enrage, might be too much since you get a large dps boost out of them.

I think Haste and Enrage could work as is with a well coordinated team, it would help if my melee actually hit more than 50% of the time though.

jestdoit
14th Jan 2014, 00:20
Break on activation, not continuous.

Oroibahazopi
14th Jan 2014, 00:26
Right so I imagine the benefit is minor since after you activate someone else could just bola or knife you again, as there's no damage mitigation from the ability.

I'd prefer dodges to actually give some immunity when done by Vamps so we actually have some skill play rather than "you pressed f now I press f. Telegraph on bola and knife is pretty long.

jestdoit
14th Jan 2014, 00:49
Right so I imagine the benefit is minor since after you activate someone else could just bola or knife you again, as there's no damage mitigation from the ability.

Yep. DPS with continuous CC immunity would be ridiculous. Changes don't have to be sweeping. Break on activation + 1.5-2s duration should be just enough to make them a metagame option.

Razaiim
14th Jan 2014, 01:37
I like a lot of what you have to say here. Unfortunately its hard to decide between what needs to happen vs what's already in. Some additions/responses that I thought of:

Shadow Bomb + Choking Haze
One thing I would like to see is the haze/bomb skills have an increasing aoe over the life-time, much like real-life gasses tendency to expand, and have a greater effect potential when it is more concentrated. This, coupled with a reduced explosion time, allows for better distinction via mechanical skills (aiming) and rewards situational awareness for humans.

Standard Melee+Control
I feel that the vampires especially reavers (meant to be straight up warrior class) need better control during their melee attacks. Right now I'm torn between reducing the lunge distance that carries you passed you're target, or lengthening it to give better chase. Sadly doing one exasperates the other.
Perhaps a fix is using your change to jump as something for roll. the current roll distance is done via dodge. A short skid or pounce forward is done via forward+dodge. Both of which can terminate in an attack.


Leap/Pounce/Savage
Introduce the ability to roll sideways during the charge-up at the cost of resetting the charge. Allow cooldowns to start counting from release, with the exception of Savage pounce.

I think that there would be some issues with your idea using skills during the landing animation, and should restrict it to skills that don't have a distinct animation and just recolor (evade and haste). Apply the same to Tyrant, or a weaker version of ignore pain for charge.

Drop+Air attacks
I also want to see mid-air drop attacks. Notably I believe it is no longer possible to use Sentinel dive-bomb while falling, which I learned the hard way. I would like to see this return. Also the use of Tyrant slam (the circle AoE one) from air would be pleasant (but takes over the role of jump).

Charge
I would like to see some form of charge where it is more of an AoE tackle. The tyrant outstretches arms and grasps humans in a frontal cone and directs them to his front, in place of knocking them to the sides. Successfully hitting can provide a large advantage for vampires to use their more limited AoE to some effectiveness. This is to equalize the humans ability to focus vampires and not worry about huge splash to the team. Currently focusing from vamps results in AoE spam being more powerful.

Haste + Enrage
This is a tough line for me. Enrage for sure feels like it should be the CC breaker. However the issue is that it makes the vampire much more powerful for the time. This means that CC would be hugely negated as it forces the vampire to go super-mode. I also think having both secondaries be CC breaking is too much. I feel load-outs should be risk/reward. I like the idea of CC break/turtle mode, or high damage mode.
I feel this issue stems from the hunter only having a bola in that skill slot. If it was replaced by an equally viable ability that was not CC, then haste and enrage would improve vastly as they are.

General Control
I want to see a rolling/quick recovery from both sides. An aware player can recover from a dangerous position more quickly (a hidden QTE essentially). Also minutely slowing the default recovery. This allows downed vampires (notably war bow) to escape a dangerous situation such as being hit and falling into a line of sight. This might be more important for humans as vampires have more knockdown skills, to avoid issues of immediate chain pouncing, chain kidnaps, and being immediately vulnerable after said skills.

I would like a crouch outside of vampire pounce position. This opens the opportunities of ambush play from both sides. Currently vampires are vulnerable on rooftops with out pounce, and humans can hide better behind certain barriers. A high jump combo can also be used (thinking Soul Reaver high jump) to scale faster.

Also introduce horizontal motion for vampires in some shape or form, ideally being able to leap between close buildings while still climbing. I would be satisfied with 3-directional motion, left, right, up, and releasing the climb key to go down. Finer control can be used for Zephonim if they become a playable faction.

Sprint+Weapon Spread
Spread for human weapons should gradually return to normal values if you aim after sprinting. I think a minor skid would also be appropriate. I find as a human it is too easy to make snapshots immediately out of sprint. This also minimizes the effectiveness of out of place humans quickly entering a fight at range. Introduce a perk that minimizes this.

Feel free to agree/disagree with me. I by no means have perfect understanding of the game.

Psyonix_Corey
14th Jan 2014, 01:49
One idea I was considering for Choking Haze (and similar skills) is to add an explosion effect to reward aim and keep the "gas" abilities semi-viable at the higher end. E.g. on impact it explodes and poisons nearby enemies for 2-5 sec worth of damage, and then has the persistent AOE effect it currently has. This would allow Reavers to "bomb" groups of skilled humans who currently move away, taking minimal damage, which reduces Haze to an inferior Shadow Bomb overall (positional adjustor).

All in all good stuff here. The one technical problem I will raise is with outlines and Shadow Bomb - because of how our outlines are rendered, I'm not sure it would be possible to make Shadow Bomb's FX suppress outlines - we could hide a teammate's outline if he is inside Shadow Bomb, but selectively not rendering them if they're "behind" a Shadow Bomb relative to your position may not be doable.

Razaiim
14th Jan 2014, 02:08
One idea I was considering for Choking Haze (and similar skills) is to add an explosion effect to reward aim and keep the "gas" abilities semi-viable at the higher end. E.g. on impact it explodes and poisons nearby enemies for 2-5 sec worth of damage, and then has the persistent AOE effect it currently has. This would allow Reavers to "bomb" groups of skilled humans who currently move away, taking minimal damage, which reduces Haze to an inferior Shadow Bomb overall (positional adjustor).


This coupled with my own suggestion would be quite interesting to see, with the maximum radius being it's current/buffed, and dps starting high and reducing to current/buffed, as the gas thins out to cover a higher area.

cmstache
14th Jan 2014, 02:48
Vamps:

All in all good stuff here. The one technical problem I will raise is with outlines and Shadow Bomb - because of how our outlines are rendered, I'm not sure it would be possible to make Shadow Bomb's FX suppress outlines - we could hide a teammate's outline if he is inside Shadow Bomb, but selectively not rendering them if they're "behind" a Shadow Bomb relative to your position may not be doable.

Why don't you just make it so you can't see any teammate names through the smoke? If you're in you can't see out and vice versa.



As far as enrage and haste go: I still think the tyrant needs more of an HP boost to make enrage viable for most players. It should give a bola break at the start though. Hunters might decide not to throw them if they know they'll just be facing a stronger opponent afterwards. Tyrants are already hunter fodder, so it'd be nice. And the fact it didn't (since this update is fixing it?) was kinda dumb. Also, enrage activation in the air would be nice.

Corey, is it a bug that you can activate shock wave while in the air (giving instant activation upon landing)?

(BTW, has anyone actually tested whether enrage increases jump and charge dmg? We can never catch the numbers in time to look.)

As far as haste goes, I really don't think it needs a CC break. It'd be more effective keeping the atk speed upgrade, but increasing the movement speed to about +50% instead of 25% and just making them harder to hit. Even if they manage to get bolad (sp?) they can just dip out asap and probably be fine with the speed boost, which will also allow them to get in and out, esp if they get activation off the flip like jest suggests. It needs to be preemptive and offense, not defensive like evasion. It's not designed to be a straight upgrade.


As far as choking haze/smoke goes, I think dmg is fine the way it is in the new update (ramped), just give it instant activation once it hits the ground like a light bomb or light vial instead of the settle. It'll make people be more alert and use the sounds. Not to mention the fact that those using voice chat will have less time to call it out.

Echolocation... move it to the primary slot, not the secondary. Then it might be a viable option the way it currently is. Overall, the sent needs a bit more air defense though. 1 scout with a war bow can shut down 2-3 sentinels. That's a bit much for one person. In fact, the only viable option with sents if someone have one is to run at least 3 and make them keep spinning and spread the damage out.


Because of the auto-aim, dodging does little to nothing vs hunters and scouts.

Humans:
I agree the sprint delay spread would be nice.

A slight DPS drop on hunter (again) and normal scout shots would work. The scouts unaimed shots really shouldn't destroy the DPS on pulled shots by so much at the current fire rate. Also, maybe make the storm bow give less splash to self? For a close range bow it can punish the user. I really think the explosion should activate a bit quicker too on normal shots. And the fall damage on the war bow is ridiculous unless you put the body-shot only thing i talked about the other day into effect.

Bola, give us back the dodge ability.

Grapple: if it activates to the cool down it should still pull you. I got hit by dive bomb and it cancelled me before I even got off the ground. Either let it activate and take the damage anyways, or don't make me waste it waiting for the cool down.


In fact, this applies for any ability. If the explosion happens on take-off, and the cool down starts the damage should happen, even if I die before I leave the ground. Currently, if a choking haze is thrown and the reaver dies before it hits the ground (even if cool down starts) the ability is negated. This is horrendously obnoxious, on both sides.


Jest: I agree on a lot of these, and I actually sent an e-mail in the other day about flamethrower (although I did 15k dmg using it the other day (skills only:P) Also, giving the ability to sprint while using flamethrower could easily work too. The sprint perk would be beast. Only issue is sometimes latency can be annoying with it, but it comes with internet gaming. It's saved me some too. :)

Razaiim
14th Jan 2014, 04:21
As a whole, I find many raw utility skills quite lacking when compared with any damage alternatives. Smoke bomb for the reasons listed above, as it is not dangerous on it's own, unlike choking haze, and it also can negatively affect the caster's team, unlike any other skill that comes to mind.

Echolocation is poor. It has a very niche role of finding that one human that spawned away from the team and keeping him locked down. I don't think I have ever been struck by echolocation, so I can't comment on what it does to humans. This causes it to pale in comparison to the burst AoE of divebomb, and the escape utility of take-off.

There is no reason to take standard bola over poison bola, as the damage persists even if the bola is broken.

I laugh internally when an enemy scout uses grapple, and swear internally when an ally scout uses grapple, due to the separation from the team. I have hunted scouts down with camouflage so easily that I have never tried it myself.

The exceptions that come to mind are Alchemist heal, hunter and alchemist blinds, and Vampire CC breakers.

jestdoit
14th Jan 2014, 12:01
One idea I was considering for Choking Haze (and similar skills) is to add an explosion effect to reward aim and keep the "gas" abilities semi-viable at the higher end. E.g. on impact it explodes and poisons nearby enemies for 2-5 sec worth of damage, and then has the persistent AOE effect it currently has. This would allow Reavers to "bomb" groups of skilled humans who currently move away, taking minimal damage, which reduces Haze to an inferior Shadow Bomb overall (positional adjustor).

That sounds like the perfect fix, directly addressing its core issue at higher level play. I hope it goes in.


The one technical problem I will raise is with outlines and Shadow Bomb - because of how our outlines are rendered, I'm not sure it would be possible to make Shadow Bomb's FX suppress outlines - we could hide a teammate's outline if he is inside Shadow Bomb, but selectively not rendering them if they're "behind" a Shadow Bomb relative to your position may not be doable.

Going along the same line as the above idea, humans caught with shadow residue could have team outlines/tags disabled for the duration, both "invisible" and blind to their own team. This would make running through smoke a bit nastier, and give reavers a reason to directly detonate a bomb over a group, without the need for complicated smoke LOS calculations.

Tube_Reaver
14th Jan 2014, 15:39
Well, what a coincidence,

Yesterday I was planning on writing a thread about how Shadow bomb (smoke bomb) is just so underwhelming, and inferior to choking haze.

For starters, the shadow cloud it forms, blocks the vampire's vision as well as his team mates, if the humans aren't outlined in yellow due to not being hit by it or standing in it.
So you just see this ink cloud blocking you from being able to see past it, while the humans can just shoot through it and get some lucky shots in.

Another thing I'd like to add is about the reaver attack range, it is very weak, and even with Haste ON, I still couldn't hit a human sprinting in a straight line directly in front of me.

I agree with pretty much everything you said in the opening post.
I also think the fix that Psyonix_Corey has in mind is a pretty good one, but I hope the damage is balanced, otherwise, humans grouping up would be a bad thing as you'll just get vamp grenades flying at you.

Varulven
14th Jan 2014, 15:47
Another thing I'd like to add is about the reaver attack range, it is very weak, and even with Haste ON, I still couldn't hit a human sprinting in a straight line directly in front of me.


And I thought I am too dumb to hit a sprinting human :O

Razaiim
14th Jan 2014, 16:26
And I thought I am too dumb to hit a sprinting human :O
It is absurdly hard. I usually run leap attack do deal with this, it fires instantly so it lets me catch them...

cmstache
14th Jan 2014, 16:35
Wish I had that issue. It seems I can hardly ever evade a vamp without the sprint perk, yet half my atks don't deal dmg when they hit, lol.

Razaiim
14th Jan 2014, 16:47
It can be done... and it is god all-mighty frustrating when you have that last punch to get in, and you can't close because he's sprinting at that wee tiny line between being out of reach and being dead, or even better, your lunge takes you past him so he turns and runs the other way.

Oroibahazopi
15th Jan 2014, 18:12
As I suspected all those years ago, the feet footed perk (or whatever it's called) breaks the vampire melee/human interaction.

All humans should use the perk imo.

jestdoit
16th Jan 2014, 01:28
Also wanted to add that pounced/savaged players should still take regular fall damage. Savage/pounce are the only skills that regularly save enemy players from extra damage - ie a reaver can save you by pouncing you right before a shockwave is about to knock you off a camping spot, or prevent additional team combo damage while help arrives.

Fall damage from pounces would make skillshots/good positioning a bit more satisfying, counter rooftop camping and make reavers a bit more useful against skilled players.

Kuro1n
16th Jan 2014, 16:00
I agree Oroibahazopi, the perk is insane and makes a huge difference.

cmstache
16th Jan 2014, 20:22
with todays melee updates it's not as big of a deal since all the hits are actually landing. It's fine the way it is.

Vampmaster
21st Jan 2014, 12:31
Corey's idea about adding an explosion effect to the Choking Haze got me thinking, why not expand that to include elemental damage types? Maybe different enemies would be vulnerable to different elements. I think someone mentioned that finding rare elemental weapons was a planned feature, so a buff type as well.

cmstache
21st Jan 2014, 14:21
Corey's idea about adding an explosion effect to the Choking Haze got me thinking, why not expand that to include elemental damage types? Maybe different enemies would be vulnerable to different elements. I think someone mentioned that finding rare elemental weapons was a planned feature, so a buff type as well.

* Thinks about OP fire bomb.... O.o *

Anyways, maybe some kind of tripwire (2 activation) with the alch would be a cool effect. Kind of a "block this door off" sort of deal.

Squids
21st Jan 2014, 19:32
Hello everyone, just started playing yesterday but from what I did play I found the shadow bomb to be pretty underwhelming. Just an idea I had but what if instead of increasing its radius or duration it "marked" or "painted" humans who walked though it for a short time. This could allow the vampires to see the humans through the smoke, maybe even through walls or perhaps they could appear on the mini map for a short while.

Psyonix_Corey
21st Jan 2014, 19:44
Hello everyone, just started playing yesterday but from what I did play I found the shadow bomb to be pretty underwhelming. Just an idea I had but what if instead of increasing its radius or duration it "marked" or "painted" humans who walked though it for a short time. This could allow the vampires to see the humans through the smoke, maybe even through walls or perhaps they could appear on the mini map for a short while.

It already paints enemies if you're on the vampire team.


Corey's idea about adding an explosion effect to the Choking Haze got me thinking, why not expand that to include elemental damage types? Maybe different enemies would be vulnerable to different elements. I think someone mentioned that finding rare elemental weapons was a planned feature, so a buff type as well.

We discussed and discarded the idea of elemental weapons and weaknesses because it breaks down quickly with the loadout system, e.g.:
- Hunter A equips Icy Crossbow
- Tyrant A dies to Icy Crossbow, equips Perk of Icy Resistance
- Hunter A notices he's weaker against Tyrant A now, switches to Fiery Crossbow
- Tyrant A equips Perk of Fiery Resistance
- etc.

We also don't want to further complicate matches where you already have to learn a wide set of weapons and abilities (both for yourself, and to fight against) with a bunch of elemental status effects and particles to deal with.

We do plan on introducing cosmetic-only flair later like Flaming Crossbows, but they won't confer any statistical advantages or disadvantages - it will just look cool.

Vampmaster
21st Jan 2014, 19:56
We do plan on introducing cosmetic-only flair later like Flaming Crossbows, but they won't confer any statistical advantages or disadvantages - it will just look cool.

Well, I suppose water bombs could just be a cosmetic option for regular bombs. What would happen if you decide to include the Rahabim? Will it come down to a choice between leaving them out of the game and leaving water based weapons out of the game, or would you just have to say they hadn't fully evolved immunity yet?

Or would switching to a more resistant class be less complicated than equipping resistant armor?

Psyonix_Corey
21st Jan 2014, 20:30
Well, I suppose water bombs could just be a cosmetic option for regular bombs. What would happen if you decide to include the Rahabim? Will it come down to a choice between leaving them out of the game and leaving water based weapons out of the game, or would you just have to say they hadn't fully evolved immunity yet?

Or would switching to a more resistant class be less complicated than equipping resistant armor?

I'm somewhat against the idea of a class being a "hard" counter against specific abilities like that. It still results in some of the silly cycling loadout/class as with the weapon-based elemental resistance idea (3 alchemists? Everybody go Rahabim!).

We do have some element of this - a team might go heavy Sentinel based on the enemy composition, for instance - but Sentinels aren't IMMUNE to Alchemist bombs or Throwing Knives...

It certainly doesn't preclude there being a vampire class based on the Rahabim with aquatic-inspired abilities. I just wouldn't expect them to be completely immune to large subsets of existing abilities, and they probably won't be going swimming off the Freeport docks.

Vampmaster
21st Jan 2014, 21:09
I'm somewhat against the idea of a class being a "hard" counter against specific abilities like that. It still results in some of the silly cycling loadout/class as with the weapon-based elemental resistance idea (3 alchemists? Everybody go Rahabim!).

We do have some element of this - a team might go heavy Sentinel based on the enemy composition, for instance - but Sentinels aren't IMMUNE to Alchemist bombs or Throwing Knives...

It certainly doesn't preclude there being a vampire class based on the Rahabim with aquatic-inspired abilities. I just wouldn't expect them to be completely immune to large subsets of existing abilities, and they probably won't be going swimming off the Freeport docks.

Well, I'd expect the Rahabim to have either resistance as opposed to outright immunity or that the immunity would only be a temporary effect like the Turelim have with their damage resist ability.

That reminds me though, I think I saw something on the blog or the facebook page about the Turelim resist ability being some sort of telekinetic shield. Kind of a precursor to the long range abilities they had in Soul Reaver. When using the ability, it looks more like they are turning to stone than what was described.

When you get around to doing the cosmetic customisations you mentioned (which I'm aware won't be a priority at the moment), could a more lore appropriate version of that be included?

Slanosaurus
21st Jan 2014, 21:25
Well, I suppose water bombs could just be a cosmetic option for regular bombs. What would happen if you decide to include the Rahabim? Will it come down to a choice between leaving them out of the game and leaving water based weapons out of the game, or would you just have to say they hadn't fully evolved immunity yet?

Or would switching to a more resistant class be less complicated than equipping resistant armor?


If you look at what Corey said on my thread, I think they've decided to abandon water as a weapon entirely. However, saying that; slightly pre-devolved Rahabim wouldn't have an immunity to water. It's not until years later that they end up completely immune and photosensitive instead.

Vampmaster
21st Jan 2014, 21:47
If you look at what Corey said on my thread, I think they've decided to abandon water as a weapon entirely. However, saying that; slightly pre-devolved Rahabim wouldn't have an immunity to water. It's not until years later that they end up completely immune and photosensitive instead.

Well, we both just agreed that they don't have to be completely immune to it. As long as that's the case and it does pretty much the same damage to the other classes, it might not be nessecary to banish water weapons entirely.

That being said, I accepted LONG ago that nobody's going to be swimming around in this game.

Slanosaurus
21st Jan 2014, 21:57
Well, we both just agreed that they don't have to be completely immune to it. As long as that's the case and it does pretty much the same damage to the other classes, it might not be nessecary to banish water weapons entirely.

That being said, I accepted LONG ago that nobody's going to be swimming around in this game.

You're right...but wouldn't water executions be awesome?! ;) Pulling people under like a crocodile...cool. But yeah, no...no swimming. I still would love to see the Rahabim in their blue, scaly glory, maybe with just the beginning of gills like Rahab himself does in Soul Reaver.