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darkvampire
12th Sep 2008, 22:57
one more of my questions :D

here it goes:

the circle created the sarafan because the vampires were raising in number. well, if the vampires were sterile, how is that the number of vampires was raising??
dont answer that the dark gift was passed because only powerful vampires could transform a human into a vampire like Vorador says in blood omen 2.

waiting for an answer :scratch:

Darkvampire

Linikratyo
13th Sep 2008, 06:47
Well, as explained in Defiance: Mortanius & Moebius started the rebellion. They thought the vampires were simply a plague that had to be whiped out. They had to become vampire because they were Pillar Guardians, but they didn't want that, so they created the Sarafan order to destroy the vampires once and for all....

The_Hylden
13th Sep 2008, 08:11
Before the curse, the Ancients could procreate, giving live birth to new born of their species. After the curse, they were sterile, but however they found they could pass the curse of vampirism -- the same curse they themselves are afflicted with -- to humans. They first try this on Vorador, and later the human chosen by the Pillars to be their guardians. You might be able to say that the curse, being a blood gift transfusion, passes not only the curse, but traits of the Ancients as well. Even in Kain and his brood, which were raised off of the ultimate utilization of the heart of darkness, Janos’, gained the Ancients’ traits as well. This is their answer to lack of actual means to procreate within their own species.

swordsicle
14th Sep 2008, 03:23
I thought the Sarafan were created in response to Kain's little jaunt back in time to kill "William the Just" before he became the Nemesis. Once Kain Killed William, Moebius used this injustace to create the order of the Sarafan to destroy the vampires, leaving only Kain alive once Vorador was beheaded.

I also thought that Kain's creation was a little different than a regular vampire, that he was resurrected through necromancy by Mortanius, and his vampiracy wasn't from a blood gift, and so his leutenants were created by Kain giving up a portion of his soul to each of his children, instead of a blood gift.

Yes, no?

FearGhoul
14th Sep 2008, 04:21
It was Moebius's Vampire hunter army that was made after William's assassination. The Sarafan existed long before that. Remember that Malek had been a Sarafan before Kain changed history.

The_Hylden
14th Sep 2008, 04:57
Yup, roughly 450 years before William the Just, the Sarafan existed. Kain only goes back in time 50 years to kill William.

The second part about Kain creating vampires differently is true. His method is to breathe a portion of his own soul into the already dead body, which acts as an anchor point and draws the being's original soul back from the Underworld. It also curses the soul with vampirism, which is why Kain's vampires are so much tougher to kill. As long as the body exists, and the soul isn't devoured, they can reanimate. The method of the Ancients, Janos, and Vorador, is a traditional blood curse method. This marks the third time this week I've answered this question also, heh.

swordsicle
14th Sep 2008, 07:39
Okey Dokey, thanks for clearing that up.

Hey.. this is a big "WHAT IF"

What if William the just was posessed by the Hylden, and his army was just another infiltration of the Hylden into Nosgoth.

I don't think the Hylden were part of the original BO1 story line, but it would be funny if it could be implicated or connected some how.

When were the Hylden first mentioned in one of the BO, SR games?

Linikratyo
14th Sep 2008, 08:09
When were the Hylden first mentioned in one of the BO, SR games?

SR2 and in BO the "Unspoken" was mentioned.

Another question:

Kain went back in time to kill William the just, so that he doesn't become tyrant, but when he does this then William doesn't become tyrant at all. In the changed storyline would Kain have no reason to help Ottmar, so Elzevir & William stay alive, but then William becomes the Nemesis.... Kain now kills him, but then he has no reason to kill him.... :confused: Paradox.

The_Hylden
14th Sep 2008, 15:40
What if William the just was posessed by the Hylden, and his army was just another infiltration of the Hylden into Nosgoth.

Before the change of Janos being alive again as we see in Defiance -- the incorruptible vessel they needed to open their Hylden gate and come forth in their own bodies back to Nosgoth -- the Hylden could only leak through and possess. A full-on army wasn't possible this way, plus the possession of regular humans quickly used up their hosts. Mortanius survived because the Pillar of Death sustains him, but as we see in Defiance, he had grown weak due to the Hylden Lord's possession and was about at the end of his rope anyway. Even Turel, an immortal vampire, was pretty messed up by the Hylden possessing him. William and his army wouldn't have been able to survive any Hylden possessing them for long.




Another question:

Kain went back in time to kill William the just, so that he doesn't become tyrant, but when he does this then William doesn't become tyrant at all. In the changed storyline would Kain have no reason to help Ottmar, so Elzevir & William stay alive, but then William becomes the Nemesis.... Kain now kills him, but then he has no reason to kill him.... Paradox.

There is no paradox. History makes only the slightest alterations, remember? Kain also didn't go back in time with the intention to kill William. He was cornered by the armies of the Nemesis after Ottmar's forces had fallen. He used the time steaming device he had come across as a last resort. The device was preset, by Moebius of course, to send him back 50 years on its own. Once back in time, the device also broke. Those devices were purposefully made by Moebius to be one-way trips, and placed upon Kain's path to lead him to do Moebius' will. Kain emerges in William's fortress and navigates William's court to find a way out. He comes upon William, possessing the Soul Reaver given to him by Moebius and who was already told by Moebius that Kain was coming to kill him. Kain does kill him as "seizing the opportunity to murder the young prince" and changes history. However, he doesn't need that as his reason, since again William wants to kill the vampire that came to slay him anyway. Kain, being the Kain he is, isn't going to simply ignore anyone standing in his way. Once dead, Kain comes upon another time streaming device, conveniently placed for him, and it's back to his present.

Now, on the new timeline, you simply replace the Legions of the Nemesis that corner Kain with Moebius' vampire hunters. Either way, Kain is cornered by a force great enough to make him use that time streaming device. It, being preset, will still send him back 50 years within William the Just's fortress. Kain, again being the Kain he is, will still navigate the palace and destroy William, simply because William is standing in his way and threatening to kill him. William's Reaver still breaks and Kain still comes upon the time streaming device there and it's back to his own present. No paradox.

Edit: As far as Ottmar, maybe Kain needs him for something, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he simply uses him to attack the evil mercenaries that are turning Nosgoth into a war-torn battleground (meaning the vampire hunters, again). I would think he needs to be included still, just because his forces have to die fighting something. And Elzevir has to die still by Kain's hands. Matter of fact, that does work. Kain needs Ottmar to stop the raging vampire hunters chasing him and returning the soul of his daughter to Ottmar gains him Ottmar's armies, regardless of what Kain is using them for. Remember, he's so gracious he wanted to award Kain his kingdom.

dumah's wraith
14th Sep 2008, 17:31
Before the change of Janos being alive again as we see in Defiance -- the incorruptible vessel they needed to open their Hylden gate and come forth in their own bodies back to Nosgoth -- the Hylden could only leak through and possess. A full-on army wasn't possible this way, plus the possession of regular humans quickly used up their hosts. Mortanius survived because the Pillar of Death sustains him, but as we see in Defiance, he had grown weak due to the Hylden Lord's possession and was about at the end of his rope anyway. Even Turel, an immortal vampire, was pretty messed up by the Hylden possessing him. William and his army wouldn't have been able to survive any Hylden possessing them for long.





There is no paradox. History makes only the slightest alterations, remember? Kain also didn't go back in time with the intention to kill William. He was cornered by the armies of the Nemesis after Ottmar's forces had fallen. He used the time steaming device he had come across as a last resort. The device was preset, by Moebius of course, to send him back 50 years on its own. Once back in time, the device also broke. Those devices were purposefully made by Moebius to be one-way trips, and placed upon Kain's path to lead him to do Moebius' will. Kain emerges in William's fortress and navigates William's court to find a way out. He comes upon William, possessing the Soul Reaver given to him by Moebius and who was already told by Moebius that Kain was coming to kill him. Kain does kill him as "seizing the opportunity to murder the young prince" and changes history. However, he doesn't need that as his reason, since again William wants to kill the vampire that came to slay him anyway. Kain, being the Kain he is, isn't going to simply ignore anyone standing in his way. Once dead, Kain comes upon another time streaming device, conveniently placed for him, and it's back to his present.

Now, on the new timeline, you simply replace the Legions of the Nemesis that corner Kain with Moebius' vampire hunters. Either way, Kain is cornered by a force great enough to make him use that time streaming device. It, being preset, will still send him back 50 years within William the Just's fortress. Kain, again being the Kain he is, will still navigate the palace and destroy William, simply because William is standing in his way and threatening to kill him. William's Reaver still breaks and Kain still comes upon the time streaming device there and it's back to his own present. No paradox.

Edit: As far as Ottmar, maybe Kain needs him for something, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he simply uses him to attack the evil mercenaries that are turning Nosgoth into a war-torn battleground (meaning the vampire hunters, again). I would think he needs to be included still, just because his forces have to die fighting something. And Elzevir has to die still by Kain's hands. Matter of fact, that does work. Kain needs Ottmar to stop the raging vampire hunters chasing him and returning the soul of his daughter to Ottmar gains him Ottmar's armies, regardless of what Kain is using them for. Remember, he's so gracious he wanted to award Kain his kingdom.

That's actually a good point. I always thought that Elzevir and ottmar were hanging around somewhere in the new timeline. I haven't played BO1, can you go back to Willendorf after Ottmar dies and you get back to the present? So Ariel warns Kain that Moebius' armies will endanger his quest, he goes to Ottmar and Elzevir.

Linikratyo
14th Sep 2008, 17:33
Thank you for clearing things up!! :D

FearGhoul
14th Sep 2008, 19:48
That's a really good theory The Hylden. That's always been a part of the story I haven't been able to figure out, that is, why Kain still goes back and kills William, and what happened with Ottmar.

Dumah's Wraith-
You can explore any part of Nosgoth, as long as you have the abilities to reach certain areas, all the way up to the part when Willendorf and the Nemesis fight eachother, from then on, you can only go where the story takes you and even when you go back to the present, you can't explore. You can't even use Bat form.

ammon
15th Apr 2009, 13:39
Dumah's Wraith-
You can explore any part of Nosgoth, as long as you have the abilities to reach certain areas, all the way up to the part when Willendorf and the Nemesis fight eachother, from then on, you can only go where the story takes you and even when you go back to the present, you can't explore. You can't even use Bat form.

that really sucks that bit, because after killing william, i wanted to go to vorador's mansion and see what it looked like - damaged and ransacked.
i also wanted to wander around other places and see what changes occured....maybe when the developers got to the last segment of the game they thought " **** it! we can't be arsed to do the rest of the world, so let's put a leesh on the players necks and stop them from wandering" :mad: lazy sods :rasp: