PDA

View Full Version : Raziel's punishment question



Rexidus
12th Jan 2014, 23:20
So there's something I've always been a little questionable about. Kain kills Raziel for his wings. At the time it appears he did so in jealousy. Yet later it seems like he did so to set Raziel down the Soul Reaver path.

That's what I'm curious about. When Raziel appeared at the meeting of the clans, did Kain murder him and then learn of his destiny? If that's the case then why would look so angry and jealous? Or did Kain know the outcome of Raziel's murder and thus played the part history wrote for him and pretend to be jealous?

Personally I suspect the former. I suspect Kain was legitimately jealous and murdered Raziel out of spite. Then shortly there after he disappeared into the time stream and learned the ramifications of that action. He then set about attempting to use Raziel to return the restored pillars to vampiric ownership. But this isn't a theory that I feel is assured.

Any opinions?

Violet-n-red
12th Jan 2014, 23:33
i prefer to think that he already knew something in the time of creation of his lieutenants.

Vampmaster
12th Jan 2014, 23:39
i prefer to think that he already knew something in the time of creation of his lieutenants.

Amy confirmed this in the Q&As on http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=124392 and http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig

Lord_Aevum
13th Jan 2014, 00:28
Kain wasn't motivated by any petty jealousy or sadism in Soul Reaver. That was just an assumption on everyone else's part which he fostered, to help acquiesce his underlings and enrage Raziel into pursuing him through time.

In reality, he was well aware of Raziel's future role in his own destiny, and threw him into the Abyss to set the plan to change history and restore Nosgoth in motion. This is explained in Defiance when he says "I would one day cast my servant, Raziel, into the abyss – dealing one last hand to play against Fate".


Kain deduced that Raziel was the prophesied Vampire hero/messiah and that his temporary destruction would ultimately lead to Kain's claiming his own destiny as the Scion of Balance. Though at that time he was still unsure of how it would play out.

Kain had understood enough of the Vampire prophecy to see the roles that he and Raziel would play, including the necessity of casting him into the Abyss.


[...] I like to think Kain looked into the Chronoplast and over hundreds of years, poured through various outcomes, looking for the one that could save himself and Nosgoth. Unfortunately, every convergence of Time resulted in and from Raziel's 'death and rebirth' to create the convergence. So when he saw the wings.. he knew it was time to cast the die.. to change the direction of his empire, to sacrifice it all.. and await the outcome hundreds of years later. (or just jump ahead using the Chronoplast. hehe)

Sluagh
13th Jan 2014, 16:44
Kain wasn't motivated by any petty jealousy or sadism in Soul Reaver. That was just an assumption on everyone else's part which he fostered, to help acquiesce his underlings and enrage Raziel into pursuing him through time.

[/i].

I s'pose his thoughts about it would have been rather complex. He knew Raziel would doubtless be mightily enraged about having his whole body taken away from him - merely left with a hideous shell with which to get no enjoyment. If he'd merely stuck a stake through him and left him for years then it might not have had the same effect. Did he definitely see something in the Chronoplast the equated to completely melting all his flesh off? I suppose it's not that important a detail. The act itself was pretty cruel, and could easily be interpreted by the other Lieutenants as a suitable punishment for somebody getting "uppity, " a ceremonial, medieval type execution. But the motivations were not spite or to cause pain, not sadistic as you say. Kain is a bit more of your brutalist villian, rather than a sadistic one, although I should think he gets off on it sometimes, like when we was torturing Moebius in Defiance.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2014, 17:26
There were a number of reasons Kain chose that particular death for Raziel, all of them resulting from Raziel's own pride and vanity. He was executed in the same manner as traitors and weaklings, bringing him to one of the lowest levels in the vampire society. The effect of water seemed to be more prolonged and painful than sunlight (most of it was blocked by the smokestack anyways, and I think water was only instant death for gameplay) and impalement would not have been fatal for Raziel (in Soul Reaver, impaled vampires return to life until their soul is devoured). The combination of insulting his pride and stature, the centuries of being burned alive, and the destruction of his appearance (his quotes about pitiful form and choosing oblivion rather than inhabiting it) were all done to ensure he would pursue Kain. (Much induction and assuming happening here but I think that's the gist of it).

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2014, 17:51
Surely granting Raziel free will and ensuring the creation of a means to rewrite history (the Soul Reaver) had something to with it as well. I think it was the only action Kain could take that did not have a guaranteed outcome and that he would have seen it as a far better alternative than certain failure.

The_Hylden
14th Jan 2014, 00:24
You pass by portals on your way down to the main Chronoplast chamber that show you glimpses of Raziel in events that have happened and some that are either illusions left by Moebius, or alternate time realities that will happen from Raziel's perspective (take your pick, but I prefer to think of them as the latter, given every one of those glimpses comes true to varying degrees). Kain would have seen this too, most likely:

Kain: "These chambers offer insight for those patient enough to look – in your haste to find me, perhaps you have not gazed deeply enough."

He states to Raziel that he's viewed countless time stream possibilities within the main room. So, yes he would have actually, physically seen already what Raziel becomes and how he becomes it. All he was waiting for were the wings to sprout. It's interesting that he could see all of that, but still didn't know quite when the wings would happen and, as you see him in SR1's intro, is a bit surprised when he's shown them. He takes a moment to comprehend, like, is this it? I guess seeing the moment happen and living it, waiting for it, are two different things and would still take one aback a bit. Possibly he felt like he'd already experienced this moment and yet it still is happening for the first time and that duality made his mind have to do that momentary double-take. Would be interesting pondering over the effects on the mind for witnessing all of time, yet still having to perceive it as it happens in real time.

Anyway, yes he knew what Raziel would be, how he had to be executed to get him to that point, and he did so primarily to turn him into the being with free will needed to provide that edge of the coin scenario. And, of course, he also did it because he knows he's fated to do it, so there's his fatalism, heh.

Sluagh
14th Jan 2014, 10:45
Impalement would not have been fatal for Raziel (in Soul Reaver, impaled vampires return to life until their soul is devoured).

That's true. However, if the souls linger in the Spirit realm long enough they turn into wraiths. However, how long that takes, etc. and whether its measured by any other factors etc. is never really explored too much, I mean, Dumah is in the spirit world a long time whilst impaled but does he get wraith powers? I don't know. In effect, Kain could have done something involving staking him, but maybe he was guided by what he saw in the Chronoplast, and of course it was fated to happen the way that it did.




It's interesting that he could see all of that, but still didn't know quite when the wings would happen and, as you see him in SR1's intro, is a bit surprised when he's shown them. He takes a moment to comprehend, like, is this it? I guess seeing the moment happen and living it, waiting for it, are two different things and would still take one aback a bit. Possibly he felt like he'd already experienced this moment and yet it still is happening for the first time and that duality made his mind have to do that momentary double-take. Would be interesting pondering over the effects on the mind for witnessing all of time, yet still having to perceive it as it happens in real time.

Anyway, yes he knew what Raziel would be, how he had to be executed to get him to that point, and he did so primarily to turn him into the being with free will needed to provide that edge of the coin scenario. And, of course, he also did it because he knows he's fated to do it, so there's his fatalism, heh.

Yes he definitely has surprise followed by disapproval on his face in the vid. Maybe he wasn't quite sure about the exactness of how and when. He just assumed that the Lieutenants and he were meeting for their regular coffee morning and BOOM! Wings! Raz had obviously had a sneaky Red Bull.

biribobili
14th Jan 2014, 19:48
I think part of the reason might be because originally Raziel was supposed to kill Kain and wipe out the vampires at the end of SR1, and Kain's expression (which looks like malice to me) is a leftover hint of how the story was originally planned out. The way The Hylden explains it works out perfectly though, and the creators probably saw it the same way.

Lord_Aevum
14th Jan 2014, 20:07
Well, from developer comments, even the scrapped original plot didn't feature Kain executing Raziel out of spite. He had still seen the future in the Chronoplast, and was trying to set Raziel on course to go back in time and change history. I don't believe the GlyphX intro scene was ever designed with the intention that Kain should telegraph genuine hatred or jealousy.

Violet-n-red
14th Jan 2014, 22:26
scrapped original plot
can it be found somewhere?


GlyphX intro scene
is it something different from usual SR1 intro or i'm not understanding something?

Lord_Aevum
14th Jan 2014, 22:55
See everything in this section (http://www.thelostworlds.net/SR1/index.html) at The Lost Worlds. We at the wiki have also transcribed the important parts of the cut storyline here (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain:_Soul_Reaver/Deleted_dialogue).

And no, there's no difference. GlyphX was the graphics studio outsourced by Crystal Dynamics to create the SR1 and 2 intros.

Sluagh
14th Jan 2014, 22:57
Well, from developer comments, even the scrapped original plot didn't feature Kain executing Raziel out of spite. He had still seen the future in the Chronoplast, and was trying to set Raziel on course to go back in time and change history. I don't believe the GlyphX intro scene was ever designed with the intention that Kain should telegraph genuine hatred or jealousy.

Just having a look at it again from what you say Aevum, which I agree with: He has a pretty grouchy expression throughout, but that's Kain. I wouldn't say he looked furious, of full of hatred though. The way he gets a bit touchy feely could suggest some kind of jealousy maybe. But for me he seems to go 1) Interest 2) Surprise 3) Disapproval (with resolve for what needs to be done). At the "cast him in," bit he hesitates a fraction, then commits himself to doing it. There isn't much sign of anger/jealousy or anything there, or any pleasure in doing it. On the whole, it's all a bit ceremonial.

Lingarn
23rd Jan 2014, 21:07
So, yes he would have actually, physically seen already what Raziel becomes and how he becomes it. All he was waiting for were the wings to sprout. It's interesting that he could see all of that, but still didn't know quite when the wings would happen and, as you see him in SR1's intro, is a bit surprised when he's shown them. He takes a moment to comprehend, like, is this it? I guess seeing the moment happen and living it, waiting for it, are two different things and would still take one aback a bit.

It is also worth considering the fact that Raziel was, and remains, the first-born of Kain's lieutenants, his right hand. It is one thing to know that you are someday going to have to torture and betray your most faithful companion for the sake of the world, but quite another to see the living proof that the day has come.

Monkeythumbz
23rd Jan 2014, 22:09
It is also worth considering the fact that Raziel was, and remains, the first-born of Kain's lieutenants, his right hand. It is one thing to know that you are someday going to have to torture and betray your most faithful companion for the sake of the world, but quite another to see the living proof that the day has come.

It's almost like he gulps when he does it... but that's probably just my over-active imagination!

Ygdrasel
24th Jan 2014, 08:35
I'd say he knew about that destiny but was also jealous of it. He's a dark god, but Raziel's a bloody universal messiah.

Sataine
24th Jan 2014, 21:24
Having known about future events, I don't think Kain was jealous at all. He knew that, one day, no vampire would have wings.

Orionte
29th Jan 2014, 21:08
This thread made me see the events portrayed in Soul Reaver I with a completely different approach, never thought Kain had foreseen everything by the use of the chronoplast chamber but it's quite logical.

ParadoxicalOmen
30th Jan 2014, 02:24
This thread made me see the events portrayed in Soul Reaver I with a completely different approach, never thought Kain had foreseen everything by the use of the chronoplast chamber but it's quite logical.

I think it's very safe to assume this after by the way Kain acts in SR2 and Defiance...
He never actually tried to kill Raziel. Kain always knew Raziel was important, although he didn't know exactly what for...

Lakdav2
30th Jan 2014, 08:19
Another interesting point in the story is when Kain destroys the Soul Reaver on striking Raziel. That moment or scene is so rarely referenced, yet its one of the most significant events in the entire plot. Did Kain know step by steb what would happen by then? Was he aware that he held Raziels soul in his hand all the time? Or did he only see that the blade would vanquish, yet not know exactly why at that point?

Also, supposedly that moment was a paradox. We dont see anything in the aftermath that resembles the paradoxes that played out in SR2, but i suppose we can blame Raziel for that, slipping into the spectral realm. But that paradox is a weird one... Paradoxes are events that should not happen because the time-stream is not meant to be messed with in such a way. History abhorbs a paradox...yet this particular paradox appearently was always meant to happen, because there must be a soul devouring entity in the blade for its full potential, the weapon of the Scion of Balance...

... i dont know where im getting with this. Now im confused again...

RainaAudron
30th Jan 2014, 11:29
Kain knew the blade would shatter - Raziel even comments on it: "I swore I saw a glint of satisfaction in KainĀ“s eye when the Soul Reaver was destroyed." Kain by that seen all the Chronoplast visions and probably traveled through time to understand how to "defy the tyrannous stars." and knew he needed Raziel to wield the wraithblade in order to achieve the paradox during SR2 era and persuade Raziel to spare him so they " could reclaim our intended destinies".

Lakdav2
30th Jan 2014, 13:20
I know, but somehow im under the impression that the chronoplast did not allow insight into different timelines, only the one that was about to play out. All that we saw as Raziel in the chronoplast visions were a history that never came to be, only in parts and poor references. (Raziel didnt strike down Ariel with the wraith-blade to take her essence, he instead imbued the blade with the soul of all balance guardians. He never killed Kain and took his soul in the Reaver and watched over the devastation brought by the Silent Cathedral, he only imbued the blade with fire and stood at the top of Janos' balcony.)

By proxy, what the chronoplast shows would change with every paradox, because every new paradox introduces new series of events that history tries to accomodate with whats already there. Now if the shattering of the Soul Reaver was a paradox as Raziel suggests, the chronoplast couldnt change to show the more intricate parts of history that Kain would hope to manipulate until the Reaver was actually broken.

And the other headache still remains. The breaking of the reaver was a result of a paradox brought on by the concept of a future soul-devouring Raziel (twisted and maddened by imprisonment in the blade) would devour the soul of its younger self that would become it... But it is a paradox that must happen in the timestream.

I wonder though. History abhorbs a paradox. But would history try to reshuffle itself in a way that one paradox in the timeline erases another paradox down in the line of the series of manipulations that lead to it, so that paradoxes are kept to a minimum? Wouldnt that make an even more messed up paradox?

Of course these questions and ramblings are pretty far from the original thread, though it kinda reflects on the questions about how much Kain could know at each part of the story.

Vampmaster
30th Jan 2014, 13:51
I know, but somehow im under the impression that the chronoplast did not allow insight into different timelines, only the one that was about to play out.

Kain's speech about seeing the future's "paths and streams tracing out into the infinite" would suggest otherwise. Besides, the last few events Raziel saw in the chronoplast turned out very differently.

RainaAudron
30th Jan 2014, 14:02
Yeah, I think it was Amy or somebody like that who said that Chronoplast gives you insight into many different outcomes.

Lakdav2
30th Jan 2014, 14:20
He might have exaggerated a bit. He has a knack for drama, honestly. He was surely surprised by the mess he began to remember out of nowhere after he saved Raziel from the reaver. Up to that point, everything seemed to go according to plan.

If the chronoplast truly showed every timeline and their possibilities, through one paradox after the other, introduced in certain order, i highly doubt Kain would have went only half-way through the possibilities of the best course of actions. He should have known that casting Raziel into the abyss will turn him into the soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade, that striking him with the Reaver unlocked his destiny, that Raziel will follow him to the past, spare him at the Pillars, spare him at Williams Chapel against all odds, find his way back to Janos, and end up killing his sarafan self and brothers, and maybe he did... But why stop there? He should have known that saving Raziel will result in the hyldens return through Janos's resurrection. If the chronoplast sees through the many manipulated timelines, why not look into the timeline created by his own choice to save Raziel?

But he did not know that part. He was surprised, and "by the dawning horror on his face" Raziel suspected that they "might have strained history too far this time" and introduced a fateful paradox. Was that the breaking point of what the chronoplast could show him? If so, Kain just acted as blindly as ever, possibly, doing exactly the opposite of what was expected of him, to derail history and defy his and Nosgoth's fate. He looked really proud of it too, then he realized what he has done. He gives the impression of a child throwing pebbles into the pond and just loving the sight of the ripples he makes, waiting for the one pebble that will have ripples that wont stop until the pond is different.

Lord_Aevum
30th Jan 2014, 19:23
The Chronoplast shows possible alternate futures and timelines, because this was the official explanation (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=376341) given for the visions Raziel encounters at the end of SR1. From the quote (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=600#p600) on the previous page, it's known that "over hundreds of years, [Kain] poured through various outcomes, looking for the one that could save himself and Nosgoth". This wouldn't be possible if its information was limited to only one particular timeline.

After he raises the lieutenants and soon thereafter discovers the Chronoplast, Kain is armed with knowledge. He's way ahead of us in every scene, he knows the plot of SR1 and SR2 ahead of time, every step of the way, right up until the end of SR2 with the paradox. This includes the Soul Reaver's secret. The best source for this is the Defiance comic (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain:_Defiance_comic), where he explicitly says "only I knew the truth of the Soul Reaver" and "everything had gone according to my plans", etc. All of it is calculated to some extent.

Even despite that, Kain can't determine what's going to happen with 100% accuracy. The visions are always subject to interpretation, and it's not fully possible to account for Raziel's free will, although you can still predict his actions based on his destiny. Moebius clarifies all this more specifically in Defiance: "Raziel is shrouded from us, but we see the ripples of his potential actions. And every path he might choose leads to the same outcome."

As for the moment where Kain strikes Raziel in SR1, there is no Reaver-convergence effect here. It's not considered a paradox on the same level as the others, because there's no historical juncture there for a new alternative timeline to take shape. Nothing is being contradicted or derailed. Either the (older) Reaver/Raziel shatters or the (younger) Reaver/Raziel consumes his younger self, and you can't reave your own soul, which leaves only one valid path for history to take: destroy the older one.

diuqSehT
30th Jan 2014, 20:44
So there's something I've always been a little questionable about. Kain kills Raziel for his wings. At the time it appears he did so in jealousy. Yet later it seems like he did so to set Raziel down the Soul Reaver path.
That's what I'm curious about. When Raziel appeared at the meeting of the clans, did Kain murder him and then learn of his destiny?

I like to imagine there's room for both. That seems most fitting, actually. Kain was a petty emperor, after all. The "original" motivation for that moment was the jealousy. At some point that was the real reason it happened--in history's "rough draft", let's call it. Then, more layers were added to that moment, and the jealousy became just a cover story. (Kain looked into the future and saw himself doing it years in advance, so when the moment came he was no longer burning hot with jealousy but was more calculated, knowing he must do it.) And during the years leading up to that moment he'd substituted a new motive (make Raziel's death count for something by turning it into the cornerstone of his "2nd throw against fate" plan), because gaining that chronoplast awareness allowed Kain that tiny bit of wiggle room--enough to pull away from his original motive even though he was still trapped into fulfilling history ("the show must go on"). But now that he was aware of his future, he had a tiny bit of influence, enough to start things headed down the road to paradox and truer freedom to improve his fate. (an avalanche starts with a pebble, and the chronoplast knowledge was that spark that led to Raz's fire of free will).

The awareness = power theme is repeated heavily with Raziel. His final decision being the one that matters, because he finally was aware enough to do the right thing, so only then did he own his power and use it meaningfully. Kain's story mirrors this but on a much smaller scale. (Another of Kain's tiny tiny breaks from the chains of fate: in SR2 when they fought at the chapel, I think Kain's foreknowledge of his own death there allowed him to change his motive during that "fight" in order to repurpose that moment from a fight into a paradox. ---Instead of insulting each other till the end like they probably did in the "original draft" of that moment (when Raz went on to kill Kain), Kain changed the mood of the conversation this time around. (only possible because he'd learned from the chronoplast the need to take things in a different direction). This time he added the new layer of coaxing Raziel into sparing him. (How, though, if Kain was chained to history? I think a paradox is like a freedom bomb and the blast carries both forward and backward a ways in time, so in the moments leading up to the paradox Kain & Raz were already experiencing a little bit of true freedom (wiggle room) from fate's chains. If Raz IS the paradox and he's already holding both swords, that probably loosens Kain up to speak freely within the local distortion zone of fate ripples Raz was putting out.

(Hey, that works technically! --> As Kain approaches Raz, each holding a reaver, the proximity of the reavers starts the distortions in reality----which loosens Kain up enough to change things by handing his reaver over to Raziel and then coaxing him into the full on paradox).

(I wonder if Kain's entire speech at the pillars was "new" too, because that's what planted the seeds of doubt in Raz's head which led to him later having an excuse to not kill Kain. Maybe in the "original draft" of history Kain & Raz went to the pillars to say essentially "This is what we're fighting for now! For all the marbles! To the death!" (Before Kain went to the chapel to get the other Reaver to use AGAINST the wraith for real in the fight he was destined to lose.)