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DXeXodus
11th Sep 2008, 08:24
I loved the tutorial level in Deus Ex 1. It briefed you on the basics of the different approaches you could take in the game and it also took place in a believable environment. You could familiarize yourself with some of the different types of weapons and game mechanics and the try and sneak the equipment through the checkpoints. :) This to me worked well, because it was a standalone element and it did not affect the single player campaign in any way.

I have noticed that in newer games (Including Deus Ex 2) the tutorial is basically just a "hand-holding" first level. I personally don't like this as I find that it dumbs down the first level which to me should not happen. This is sometimes tolerable if one can simply switch off these in-game "tips".

What is your opinion regarding game tutorials, and more specifically, how should the Deus Ex 3 tutorial work?

As you can probably guess by now, I am all for a proper "pre-game" standalone tutorial.

________
Link to old topic:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75223

pewbeng
11th Sep 2008, 08:30
See, in Deus Ex i found it quite fitting to play without the tutorial. Since you just popped out of the academy and it really *was* your first mission it was okay to stumble around a little. I would've done it if i wasn't familiar with Ego-Shooters, I guess.

Of course this is specific to that game. I don't really have an opinion on this applicable to games in general.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Sep 2008, 08:36
Interesting question. :)

I voted for option one, the stand-alone tutorial.
The trouble with built-in tutorials is that if you wish to play the game again; you are forced to endure the tutorial unnecessarily before you can get on with it. :(

DXeXodus
11th Sep 2008, 08:39
I agree. being forced to go through a tutorial mission is not great. The only viable option here is to be able to turn tips off, which is sadly lacking from many current games.

jordan_a
11th Sep 2008, 09:58
Stand alone. In game tutorials really suck and, in my opinion, destroy all the drama and realism of the story.

About the hints I'd like to be able to turn them off in the menu. (gameplay menu in Bioshock).

By the way DXeXodus have you seen this from february? Maybe you would want to add a poll to it (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75223)

MaxxQ1
11th Sep 2008, 10:10
Mark another one for standalone.

DX was the first shooter/rpg-type game I ever played, and it spoiled me as far as tutorials go.

Overtime
11th Sep 2008, 10:14
Yep, stand alone tutorial.

The problem with the DX2 tutorial was that it broke the gameplay. Furthermore, I ended up not reading those messages in DX2 because they became annoying....

The DX1 stand alone tutorial was fun because there was no pressure associated with it. You could familiarise yourself with the controls at your own pace.

Blade_hunter
11th Sep 2008, 10:20
I vote for stand alone tutorial I think built in tutorials makes the replays much fastidious because we can't skip it.
many old games give to the players the choice, and newer prefers the built in, but it's a mistake to do this.

DXeXodus
11th Sep 2008, 10:36
I remember some of the older game tutorials such as HALF - LIFE and System shock 2. They were really well done and added to the overall experience greatly.

@jordan_a: Apologies mate. I looked to see if there had been a thread like this before and couldn't seem to find anything.

Red
11th Sep 2008, 11:51
Stand-Alone.

You guys already explained it.

jordan_a
11th Sep 2008, 12:28
New! Tutorials (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80074) | (former) (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75223)

Nice consensus here by the way.

DXeXodus
11th Sep 2008, 12:31
Nice consensus here by the way.

So far it is quite apparent what the preferred method would be.

Romeo
11th Sep 2008, 15:19
Well, we're pretty unanimous in our thinking, arn't we? Yay, cake for everybody! (And please don't start another Portal reference from that... The last one went on for like... Fifty posts.)

El_Bel
11th Sep 2008, 15:33
I would play Fallout 2 all the time if it wasn't for the temple training...

As a matter of fact there are a lot of games i dont play because of the boring training mission.

So standalone tutorial all the way!!

jcp28
11th Sep 2008, 23:36
I liked the DX 1 tutorial. It's a good way to familiarize new players with the basic game mechanics and the correct way to use augs.

A built-in tutorial would really detract from the game. Sorry, but I don't want any hints flashing across the screen at the beginning.

Apollonius
12th Sep 2008, 03:23
lol great minds think alike!

Yep, as mentioned by others it's handy for the first play to get familiar with the controls and playing style but also nice to be able to skip it on subsequent plays.

Romeo
12th Sep 2008, 06:22
OH MY GOD! 23!!! IT'S EVERYWHERE!!!

And I'm sure great minds do think alike. Unfortunately for your theory, I voted that way too. Self-burn, boo yeah!

Apollonius
12th Sep 2008, 06:38
lol I suppose I stand corrected ;)

gh0s7
12th Sep 2008, 12:13
Interesting question. :)

I voted for option one, the stand-alone tutorial.
The trouble with built-in tutorials is that if you wish to play the game again; you are forced to endure the tutorial unnecessarily before you can get on with it. :(

Hear, hear!
(voted number 1) :)

jordan_a
12th Sep 2008, 12:31
This poll illustrates what DX3 should be.

Experienced players don't want an in-game tutorial, yet they acknowledge that newcomers and casual players need it. That's why nobody voted for a total absence of tutorial.

If DX3 can be made as if it was designed for every audience, it will be successful. But if you force people to accept features that are too easy or hard for you then you will disappoint them.

I hope the developers keep in mind this balance aspect, DX is a fragile franchise since it has to satisfy the fans and players looking for challenge but also the casual gamers.

DXeXodus
15th Sep 2008, 04:52
Dear Eidos Montreal:

On behalf of everyone: *

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm5/DXeXodus/Majorityvote.jpg

*Because 29 people are the majority. That's how these things work. :)

Red
15th Sep 2008, 05:59
30 :rasp:

Jerion
15th Sep 2008, 06:22
Well, we're pretty unanimous in our thinking, arn't we? Yay, cake for everybody! (And please don't start another Portal reference from that... The last one went on for like... Fifty posts.)

Pie > Cake. :rasp:

CarloGervasi
15th Sep 2008, 07:57
It really depends on the narrative I guess. If there's already a story reason for my character to be getting trained to do all this stuff right then, then yeah, go ahead and throw it into the main game. If not, just put it off to the side as a separate little prequel, "this is what JC did a few months prior to getting to Liberty Island", like in the first one.

rhalibus
15th Sep 2008, 23:24
What was great about the DX tutorial is that it not only introduced you to the mechanisms of the DX interface, but also showed you the scope of what you could actually do in the DX world--pick up bodies, plant explosives, find secret rooms, etc.--all with continual comment from NPC's.

The tutorial showed that you were meant to find your own solution, not a specfic one--utilizing the tools available in a physical, tangible world. I hope DX3 continues this trend.

Blade_hunter
15th Sep 2008, 23:30
Many games uses ingame tutorials to increase their length but that things, was fastidious to make always tutorials, if the game is very simple it can be ingame but for games with a little complexity it's better to make it separate.
And even on simple games I prefer separate tutos, because it's better and it can made the game more accessible for newbies, Red faction isn't a complex game but it have a separate tutorial, and the tutos gives a sufficient amount of tools to know the possibilities of the game.

ewanlaing
16th Sep 2008, 15:51
Yay!
The community agrees on something unanimously!!

*cracks open champagne*

Spiffmeister
17th Sep 2008, 00:43
DX1 Tutorial worked well because it meant the player didn't have to run through the tediousness of it every single time they started a new game. The "ingame" tutorial will get kind of annoying for players who either want to learn on the go or have finished it already.

Bloodwolf806
17th Sep 2008, 15:14
Pre-game, standalone tutorial - Ala DX1

Do it Eidos!

DXeXodus
18th Sep 2008, 04:19
Pre-game, standalone tutorial - Ala DX1

Do it Eidos!

You get the honour* of being quoted by a mod just because you are using one of my avatars.

Lol. :)
Cherish it always.



*Sarcasm.
And yes, we spell honour and colour with a "U". That's just how we roll in South Africa.

Romeo
19th Sep 2008, 04:47
And Canadia. GOSH.

pHdeus
21st Sep 2008, 00:43
I am resigned to the fact that the "standard" for new games is not to have separate tutorials, even though I really liked the Deus Ex tutorial method. So I would prefer the Deus Ex method, but voted for integrated because that is what seems acceptable these days.

In Half-Life 2, there is a time before there are any weapons or fighting and there is an orientation to the evironment as well as the situaition. Other games had other ways of orienting the player without a separate tutorial.

There are probably many creative methods for incorporating orientation and tutorial practice into the game itself.

Jerion
21st Sep 2008, 05:11
I am resigned to the fact that the "standard" for new games is not to have separate tutorials, even though I really liked the Deus Ex tutorial method. So I would prefer the Deus Ex method, but voted for integrated because that is what seems acceptable these days.

In Half-Life 2, there is a time before there are any weapons or fighting and there is an orientation to the evironment as well as the situaition. Other games had other ways of orienting the player without a separate tutorial.

There are probably many creative methods for incorporating orientation and tutorial practice into the game itself.

One way to do it would be to take into account the number of times a given profile has played the single player campaign: after a single playthrough, then on higher difficulties, the tutorial parts of the missions are replaced with less hand-holding dialog/objectives and orient you more towards the mission itself.

Apollonius
21st Sep 2008, 05:35
Oh well, I'd say 41-0 was a pretty good streak :p

One way of incorporating the tutorial into the game would be with small pop-up messages explaining how to pick up items, access inventory, etc through the first play with the additional option of disabling them. I guess that way the devs could spend more time on developing the game itself rather than the tutorial.

J.CDenton
21st Sep 2008, 08:25
I voted for the DX1 like tutorial!

It was great because in a way it had a little part in the main story of the game. Also the music...was...just...great! Can't stop to listen to it!

dxfan94
21st Sep 2008, 21:19
I loved the tutorial level in Deus Ex 1. It briefed you on the basics of the different approaches you could take in the game and it also took place in a believable environment. You could familiarize yourself with some of the different types of weapons and game mechanics and the try and sneak the equipment through the checkpoints. :) This to me worked well, because it was a standalone element and it did not affect the single player campaign in any way.

I have noticed that in newer games (Including Deus Ex 2) the tutorial is basically just a "hand-holding" first level. I personally don't like this as I find that it dumbs down the first level which to me should not happen. This is sometimes tolerable if one can simply switch off these in-game "tips".

What is your opinion regarding game tutorials, and more specifically, how should the Deus Ex 3 tutorial work?

As you can probably guess by now, I am all for a proper "pre-game" standalone tutorial.


Ah nah i really liked the whole Dx:IW thing going on. the first level of it was very baleivable and it made so much easier. The tutorial in DX 1 i didnt do cause the water level with the mech kept getting me killed. (i know isnt that sad) but i beat the game without it. Even Halo had an in game trainer.


I voted for the DX1 like tutorial!

It was great because in a way it had a little part in the main story of the game. Also the music...was...just...great! Can't stop to listen to it!

the music in Dx1 was ok. But i downloaded every song from IW. They were real songs at least to me. The opening theme song for IW was moving and just soooo awesome

general kane
22nd Sep 2008, 15:33
i think thy should like make the tutorial in the game for instance:

the character is in a helicopter than it was shot down and you are suffering from burns , another character or an inner AI (( depends on the player status and setting )) approaches the player and tells him what to do .

or if u were on the helicopter and the pilot got shot u take countrol and the co pilot tells you what to do .

gamer0004
22nd Sep 2008, 16:07
i think thy should like make the tutorial in the game for instance:

the character is in a helicopter than it was shot down and you are suffering from burns , another character or an inner AI (( depends on the player status and setting )) approaches the player and tells him what to do .

or if u were on the helicopter and the pilot got shot u take countrol and the co pilot tells you what to do .

This is kinda exactly what most players DON'T want. In DX:IW, for instance, I always found it strange that during a major attack on our high tech facility I had to kill dozens of enemies but had to learn how to climb a ladder as well :scratch:

El_Bel
22nd Sep 2008, 16:57
Even Halo had an in game trainer.

Thats a reason not to put an in game tutorial in Deus Ex!!!

Jerion
22nd Sep 2008, 17:01
Thats a reason not to put an in game tutorial in Deus Ex!!!

The trick, as I've said, is to put in both an in-game trainer and an out-of-game trainer. If you forgo the out-of-game trainer on your first playthrough, then the in-game one kicks in. Reciprocally, if you do use the out-of-game tutorial, then the in-game one does not kick in. And after your first playthrough, the in-game trainer is disabled.

Blade_hunter
22nd Sep 2008, 17:04
We have an other view about the tutos, for example we can put it built in but we can skip the training sequences by not entering in the training rooms, and choose what we want to learn, it can be a choice, isn't it ?

for example i want to learn the moves, I choose the parkour room, If I want to learn about the weapons I can choose the weapon room.

this option can be used in a separate tuto too

The thing I never want is the Halo tutorial, I hated it, more than the DX 2 tuto, but thats my opinion

El_Bel
22nd Sep 2008, 19:54
Nice idea Blademaster!! I was always bored by the DX tutorial because Gunter would not open the damn weapon locker!! (Thats the reason i never give him my pistol in liberty statue :rasp: )

Jerion
22nd Sep 2008, 20:18
You know, it would be nice if we got more pre-game skill points depending on how well we did in the training scenario. :)

rockyrr
1st Oct 2008, 18:46
The TUTORIAL in DX1 was the BOMB... liked it soo much :)

foxberg
1st Oct 2008, 19:03
Interesting question. :)

I voted for option one, the stand-alone tutorial.
The trouble with built-in tutorials is that if you wish to play the game again; you are forced to endure the tutorial unnecessarily before you can get on with it. :(

That is solvable. Stand alone tutorials that a player can skip if he decides to play the game again. Some kind of a training level.

Kenny
1st Oct 2008, 21:22
I voted standalone tutorial :)

Overtime
1st Oct 2008, 22:35
You know, it would be nice if we got more pre-game skill points depending on how well we did in the training scenario. :)

No, no. A tutorial is meant to be a stress free learning process. Cant put that kinda pressure on someone that hasn't played the game yet. Furthermore, if you get points, then hardcore players will have to do the tutorial every time to get those extra points, which would be a pain.

Im all for secrets in the tutorial like in DX1 with the secret room tho.
To expand on Blade_hunter's idea, it would be nice to be let lose in a small complex where you can decide which training you want to do. You could talk to different ppl and can be introduced to the idea of making your own choices and seeing the consequences.
However, the training and the main game must be separate, nothing should cross over...

Necros
6th Oct 2008, 06:06
Standalone. :cool: :thumbsup:
But:

Built-in tutorial - Ala DX2 or Thief III --- *** René
Could this mean anything? :scratch: Or he's just messing with us? :D

DXeXodus
6th Oct 2008, 06:13
Haha! Nice try. I see what you did there :D

dark_angel_7
6th Oct 2008, 07:46
Option 1 for moi. :cool:

rynn taylor
8th Oct 2008, 09:27
And yes, we spell honour and colour with a "U". That's just how we roll in South Africa.


And Canadia. GOSH.

And Australia :thumbsup:

DXeXodus
8th Oct 2008, 17:16
America always has to be so different :)

3nails4you
8th Oct 2008, 17:23
Pre-job security guard training FTW.

3nails4you
8th Oct 2008, 17:25
America always has to be so different :)

Edited version:


America always has to be so awesome :)

DXeXodus
8th Oct 2008, 17:49
Exactly. :D
Thats the problem.

Bloodwolf806
8th Oct 2008, 19:40
Pre-job security guard training FTW.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.

piippo
9th Oct 2008, 01:23
I voted for no tutorial, but I'm open for tutorial that is seperate level also.

AsukaoYl
9th Oct 2008, 02:28
Stand alone but part of the game somehow.

I voted Built-in tutorial but what i mean is more like Half-Life where game progresses and teaches you want you need to know as you go along.

DXeXodus
9th Oct 2008, 04:04
The Half Life tutorial is a standalone tutorial.

Unless you mean HL2 which is a built in tutorial.