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Dagren
20th Nov 2013, 10:23
So I'm not sure if this is a bug or if it's because there is not enough people in the alpha, but if people leave the game after a match, the rest of us are always stuck in the lobby waiting for players, and the teams would never fill up with new players.
So you have to leave the game and search for another one.

I've tried to wait up to 10 minutes but not a single player would join the lobby each time it happened.

Also, a bit of topic, but can't I chose the map I want to play on? I've played like 10 matches yesterday and it was always on Freeport, except for the last match that was on Provance (I was really believing there was only one map in the alpha thus far so I was pleasantly surprised).

Syst3mzero
20th Nov 2013, 11:29
Yeah I made a point like this, the lobby breaks the matchmaking.

the problem is the lobby and the interval time, when the game ends rather than booting you out so you have to hit search it leaves you in a lobby with a 60 second interval which leads impatient people to exit and search for a game without an interval timer. problem is this happens in so many lobbys that players searching for a lobby have so many lobbys to fill that the match making takes ages to fill them up.

I'm not sure why its done like this, games would fill much quicker if at the end it didn't place you in a lobby but instead made you search for a new one as it could create and fill new lobbys in a more efficient way rather than lots of half filled lobbys it could create them as needed and fill it then make another, waiting time would be hugely reduced.

The problem is 75% design flaw as they made the wait too long and assumed players wanted to play the game with the team and enemy they just played with, and 25% player fault as to avoid the 1 minute cool down they leave and search for a new game even though this means a longer wait but they just haven't thought about it logically.

Psyonix_Corey
20th Nov 2013, 16:24
There appears to be a bug with servers not properly advertising after the first match, which means the lobbies never refill. Until we let you guys know I'd suggest quitting and searching anew after each match.

Regarding the intermission delay, it's there so players have time to fiddle with their inventories and loadouts, go to the bathroom, etc. between rounds. We have no intention of changing that, but we can look at supporting a "ready up" system that would let organized groups bypass the countdown if they want, perhaps.

hirukaru
20th Nov 2013, 19:20
There appears to be a bug with servers not properly advertising after the first match, which means the lobbies never refill. Until we let you guys know I'd suggest quitting and searching anew after each match.

Regarding the intermission delay, it's there so players have time to fiddle with their inventories and loadouts, go to the bathroom, etc. between rounds. We have no intention of changing that, but we can look at supporting a "ready up" system that would let organized groups bypass the countdown if they want, perhaps.

That ready up button would be nice Corey.
+1 for thinking of that option.

maguzze
21st Nov 2013, 00:54
Is it just me or does anyone else notice all the level 1 people get thrown together while all the high levels get on the same team...doesn't seem right

hirukaru
21st Nov 2013, 01:25
Some of the people are in a party.

Next the matchmaking has been reported as a bug.

Magicaltophat
21st Nov 2013, 02:54
It's been the opposite for me. I'm sitting around level 10 and get matched with level 1-2 players with a pretty significant frequency.

Xaragoth
21st Nov 2013, 04:22
You probably had the unforunate event of being matched against us. We were less people today so we just roamed about in a team a lot.

We are hoping Psyonix will soon get in private matches that still reward Exp/Gold (for the Alpha) so we can just leave the normal match making for a bit and allow people to catch up and learn :)

Zindiq
21st Nov 2013, 13:31
We are hoping Psyonix will soon get in private matches that still reward Exp/Gold (for the Alpha) so we can just leave the normal match making for a bit and allow people to catch up and learn :)

the problem is not really the gold/exp but more that the private match servers is not the same as the Live servers , so no point testing them.

LOFO1993
4th Dec 2013, 18:16
I've played for three-fours hours in total in the last days, and I couldn't help but notice there is something quite wrong with the actual matchmaking system.

My point is: about 80% of the times teams are clearly unbalanced, and you can easily predict who is gonna win before the match even begins. Very low lever players end up in the same team almost every time, leading - for example - to situations like 20-20-13-8 vs. 9(being me)-3-1-1. There should be something to prevent this from happening, let alone from happening almost every single time.

I get that if players invite their friends they are gonna play together, so that may lead to these kind of unbalance (I think this is what is happening right now, or I can't come up with a reason why teams are always that unbalanced). In that case an easy solution could be to create a different game mode, where you just can't invite people, so that if you want to play alone and you don't want to end up with 3 newbies (no offence, but that's reality, if you are new to the game you are likely gonna suck) against 4 experienced players every single time at least you have a way to do it.


Seriously, this is quite ruining the game for me, and I bet I'm not the only one.

Psyonix_Corey
4th Dec 2013, 18:21
Team skill balancing isn't implemented yet. It is a very high priority. We realize it's a big problem right now, especially with the low player count as you tend to get matched with the same people regularly.

We will almost certainly have a "solo" queue but we don't have the playercount yet to sustain newbie, solo, and normal playlists.

LOFO1993
4th Dec 2013, 18:33
Ok, thanks for the answer.

Oroibahazopi
4th Dec 2013, 19:43
Team skill balancing isn't implemented yet. It is a very high priority. We realize it's a big problem right now, especially with the low player count as you tend to get matched with the same people regularly.

We will almost certainly have a "solo" queue but we don't have the playercount yet to sustain newbie, solo, and normal playlists.
You have to force solo queuing if you want to fix the premade noob bashing. At this stage of testing and number of players it's just premades bashing new players, it's boring for the level 10+ and it's horrible for the noobs who don't know anyone.

You aren't going to get any decent data from PUB play if it continues like this. Random teams, may as well sort by level bleh.

People may cry that they don't get to circle jerk about how pro they are while farming noobs with their friends but that's a small price to pay.

hirukaru
4th Dec 2013, 20:36
Give me 80 gold a match and everyone can kill me.
Hmm wait there is no trading system ;) (cant abuse this then)

But hope this High priority will be in soon.

Maby calculate skill level not off the level someone has but on the k/d ratio + played games = Score
Score = skill level

Match skill level +/- 25%
That would be nice I think if that works.

Razaiim
5th Dec 2013, 19:23
I played a couple games yesterday, where it was a noob pre-made team. I think one of them ended up being Talespin, Where the silence holds sway, a couple other guys I've played with, against me and a pre-made trio with little experience... I was wincing at the score

Razaiim
11th Jan 2014, 01:11
I'm sorry Psyonix but this really needs to be said. It seems what ever fix you attempted with the Matchmaker ended up befuddling it more. How are you calculating average over all rank?
I just quit a game where it was Jest (18) Oroibhazsumthing (18) Grimi(18) and some other guy (18) against my self (20) two level 1s and a 9.

Using the basic mean definition of an average... (18*4)/4 = 18, (20+1+1+9)/4 = 7.75. They can't even be reasonably close.

Using the same definiton... a better split would be 18 + 18+ 1+9 (yields mean of 11.5) and 18+18+20+1 (yields 14.25).
It's not ideal, but it is closer.

I feel like using a straight up sorting algorithm to determine highest rank (i.e bubble sort or merge sort), and distributing alternating players to each team would work.

Essentially create an array that looks like this:

20...............................20 team 1
18...............................18 team 2
18...............................18 team 1
18...and do this to it...18 team 2
18...............................18 team 1
9................................,9 team 2
1..................................1 team 1
1..................................1 team 2

this gives the means generated above.

I'm sorry to be so critical where i haven't before, but it was inconsistent and passable at the time, however in recent months it has become nigh unbearable. I apologize for any steps in your logic that are in place for a reason that prevents this, but right now it seems to be more flawed then previously.

Sincerely, Razaiim (SirShua in game.)

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 01:59
Ok I'm calling it quits (at least for now), the game is unplayable now we have a very bugged matchmaking system.

The problem is I'm a lvl 20 (which is now unattainable) and so the matchmaking system seems to class me as an unbeatable god of super slaughter so every game I play it keeps banding me with the 3 loest player (lvls 1-6 normally) and then pits my team against unbelievable odds like 4 lvl 14-18s,
since this matchmaking has come in nearly every game I have played has been as one sided as... well cant think of anything that has ever been this one sided.
So much for the new guys sticking round I'm sure if I'm getting frustrated and quitting we will lose 75% of them again thanks to the fact that they are getting uberly stomped.

The matchmaking was more fair when there was no matchmaking, at least it was random rather than victimising lvl 20 players and the newest players.

might come back when it gets patched.

jestdoit
11th Jan 2014, 02:09
The matchmaking somehow put Bobo, Oroi, DeputyPotato, and myself (all level capped) vs Syst3mzero and 3 lvl 1-6's. None of us were partied.

1-5 for the beginner queue is just too limited. Making it 1-9, and having level 10+ restricted lobbies would solve a lot of matchmaking woes and rage. People are quitting left and right because beginners are getting stomped, and experienced players hate playing with beginners just as much. It's basically impossible to get a decent level-capped game. A couple low levels will refuse to make room/find their own lobby, then end up raging out after playing a few minutes.

Razaiim
11th Jan 2014, 02:19
I'm on the verge of that point. I made another detailed thread about this:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8903

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 02:36
yeah I posted a more fair way of doing it months ago but cant remember where,
basically i said rank everyone in game 1-8 then do this

1,3,6,8 team 1
2,4,5,7 team 2

funnily enough I checked it vs your calculations that you gave and my way works it out exactly the same!

Its because if we are working it out on rank rather than skill this is the perfect sum.

Its a bit **** that we suffer for being lvl 20 and the new lower cap meaning we get punished excessively.

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 02:47
The matchmaking somehow put Bobo, Oroi, DeputyPotato, and myself (all level capped) vs Syst3mzero and 3 lvl 1-6's. None of us were partied.

1-5 for the beginner queue is just too limited. Making it 1-9, and having level 10+ restricted lobbies would solve a lot of matchmaking woes and rage. People are quitting left and right because beginners are getting stomped, and experienced players hate playing with beginners just as much. It's basically impossible to get a decent level-capped game. A couple low levels will refuse to make room/find their own lobby, then end up raging out after playing a few minutes.

Thing is I asked people over the last few days to hold back a little and maybe play less played classes but you can't expect them to hold back that much they would need to play blindfolded and with mittens on for my team to win. they are all fresh from team games where team doesn't matter and I cant even get a kill because they don't learn to co-ordinate till lvl 10.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 02:54
Well... it is good the newbies are playing this and not something like dota or lol, they would get so flamed. .___.;

EDIT: I wonder if there is some system we can't really see behind it or if it is just randomly putting people in teams...

Razaiim
11th Jan 2014, 02:56
they lowered the cap? and didn't drop us down? That explains alot!

ruykin
11th Jan 2014, 02:56
What ever happen to the level 1-10 lobby? I remember when I first started to play it was an option now after level 10 it is gone? I now see level 1s in such in the higher up lobby! I also had the misfortune to keep a group of all level 1s

cmstache
11th Jan 2014, 03:01
It's a 1-5 lobby. And I have been hoping that in a week or two when the newbies start getting a bit better and the issues is less of...well... an issue.

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 03:23
Well... it is good the newbies are playing this and not something like dota or lol, they would get so flamed. .___.;

EDIT: I wonder if there is some system we can't really see behind it or if it is just randomly putting people in teams...

yeah I really can't blame them, there is a big difference that knowing the map, knowing the teamwork and knowing your team (as most of us do from being here so long and its the same old faces) makes.

I figure they based the calculations on the new lvl 18 cap so lvl 20s break the system and show up as a superman among mere mortals and the system goes "OOOOOOO SHINY!" freaks out and thinks hey give those poor lvl 18s a chance vs these people who are so awesome they can break the laws of lvl cap. "here you go Mr Lvl 20" and it hands you 3 lvl 1 players because it knows with your bullet proof skin, xray and heat vision you basically have this game in the bag.

Well wake up silly system I'm actually just a balding 33 year old who would really like a bacon sandwich and hopes Joss Wheadon will make good on what he says and in 3 years time will make a 2nd serenity movie.

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 03:25
yup.... oversight much?
incredibly bad when you then introduce a lvl based matchmaking system and you are above the lvl cap!!

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 03:35
It's busted and it's being fixed internally. We can't get patches QA'd or deployed on the weekend. So it'll be early next week unless we can get Square's server team to roll back to the last stable build you guys were on (we've sent emails, but won't know until tomorrow).

If it's ruining your experience, take the weekend off.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 03:36
There were bugs. We were trying to rush a system out because of everyone having a bad time with no team balancing and it has issues. This happens in Alpha tests.

I'm sorry it's frustrating but if you don't want bugs don't play an Alpha test. Making threads about the game being "unbelievably broken" and threatening to quit doesn't help anybody.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 04:04
There were bugs. We were trying to rush a system out because of everyone having a bad time with no team balancing and it has issues. This happens in Alpha tests.

I'm sorry it's frustrating but if you don't want bugs don't play an Alpha test. Making threads about the game being "unbelievably broken" and threatening to quit doesn't help anybody.
Don't take it to heart, I am sure OP was just frustrated which happens sometimes. By the way why do you call it alpha if it is not internal testing? Normally alpha would be internal testing and beta be with external parts or future customers no?

Razaiim
11th Jan 2014, 05:18
When we say quit we really mean wait until we see some indicator that the issues at hand have been fixed. I think I speak for all of us when we say that we appreciate what you are trying to achieve, and it's quite gratifying as an alpha tester to be part of the process of making the game become something exceptional. At the moment I feel the angry tone is coming a lot from posting in between games right after what ever set us off happened (many a person tends to write in a way that reflects their mood).

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 05:39
There were bugs. We were trying to rush a system out because of everyone having a bad time with no team balancing and it has issues. This happens in Alpha tests.

I'm sorry it's frustrating but if you don't want bugs don't play an Alpha test. Making threads about the game being "unbelievably broken" and threatening to quit doesn't help anybody.

whoa chill your beans there.

Was there a threat to quit? nope. I said I'm quitting till a patch fixes it, and I might be back when the patch happens.

I also warned that the new matchmaking system is even more unfair on the newest guys and they will probably quit. most don't ever get as far as the forum and so many seem to join play for a few games and disappear never to be seen again, you are retaining only a small amount of players.

I'm an abrasive person. my friends refer to me as Sheldon Cooper, even my girlfriend calls me that. I have few social skills that aren't just emulated copies of what I see other people do. this means 2 things and the first is I don't sugar coat things, the second thing is I study and predict behaviour.

I understand the difficulty of project management as I was the guy that people sent in to resolve projects behind schedule before I became too ill to work. In most cases the delays were caused by people not understanding priority.
I once walked into a department and doubled the possible workload completed per day on a software rollout by teaching people priority and reassigning people more efficiently. I then showed them how to maximise the software so it required 1/3 of the daily upkeep that they had planned once it was rolled out, then I showed them where they were wrong in the data that was fed out because I studied the end users and actually paid attention to their needs rather than assuming the best way to serve their needs as the project manager had done, he had included data that the departments didn't need and missed out core functionality that the departments needed. I had very basic programming skills when I went to that project and learnt what I needed in the first 3 days so I could understand what was being done. I put the project ahead of schedule in the 2 weeks from being 4 weeks behind. when asked for an evaluation the project manager gave my manager one saying I had been a hindrance, then my manager let the project manager go when I made my report.
My manager always liked my results, and often saw the fact that people became hostile and defensive towards me when I fixed their mistakes.

The point of my story... regularly re-evaluate, look at the effect decisions have, pay attention to the end user needs (not their wants or your assumptions) get outside perspective (eg. take an artist and ask them what they think to mechanics) people who have too much knowledge in a subject often overlook simple improvements. don't try justify your failings just admit them.

Now just think to yourself if I ignore his abrasive manner does he have valid points?
Should I apologise for voicing my opinions in an alpha? sorry thought that's what alpha was about if you don't want opinions you probably don't want to run an alpha.

Also would you class the current matchmaking as something other than unbelievably broken? its a bigger problem than any other bug in Nosgoth as it makes it unplayable. you cant think you will get any balance information regarding classes until its fixed, you cant really get much usable data from the current match ups.

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 05:41
When we say quit we really mean wait until we see some indicator that the issues at hand have been fixed. I think I speak for all of us when we say that we appreciate what you are trying to achieve, and it's quite gratifying as an alpha tester to be part of the process of making the game become something exceptional. At the moment I feel the angry tone is coming a lot from posting in between games right after what ever set us off happened (many a person tends to write in a way that reflects their mood).

Now that's a nice reply, much nicer than I can put it.

Proxish
11th Jan 2014, 11:23
I have lost the last 7 out of 8 games now, because not one team-mate I have had has been able to get more kills than deaths, yet I've been in double digit kills in just about every single round of every game. I have 40+ hours of gameplay now, and for some reason I keep getting paired with level 1's. Yesterday I had someone that didn't know how to sprint...
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helping people out, but there is only so much I can do and losing 7 out of 8 games because of poor team-mates is ridiculous.

Arykel
11th Jan 2014, 12:27
Yes people , it's an alpha game , just wait.

I'm sure they will add a party system and everything and when it comes out , I care about it , we need a system that can allow you to play the game party vs party or non party vs non party, dev team, you will broke the fun if it's like non party vs party .

How will be ?

Oroibahazopi
11th Jan 2014, 12:34
Separate solo and team queues are planned.

Razaiim
11th Jan 2014, 17:45
The fix they put in place had serious issues which exacerbated a recurring problem. They just rolled the game back to the pre-fix version for the weekend so it happens less consistently.

blincoln
11th Jan 2014, 19:13
I like the idea mentioned above (rank the players, then alternately distribute them to each team), but I think it would be good to deliberately randomize the order within a given level or bracket of levels so that the same people don't end up on the same team each time if you have 8 people playing together over and over.

E.g.:

Group players by:

Level 20+
Level 16-19
Level 12-16
Level 6-12
Level 4-6
Level 1-3

Then randomly order the players within those brackets, *then* do the distribution to the teams.

E.g. if you have these players in a match:

BringerOfHugs (20)
SirShua (20)
Bobo (20)
Lance Echo (20)
jest (18)
Where Silence Holds Sway (18)
Victorian Rat (18)
BurnCycle (7)

You get these brackets:

BringerOfHugs (20)
SirShua (20)
Bobo (20)
Lance Echo (20)

jest (18)
Where Silence Holds Sway (18)
Victorian Rat (18)

BurnCycle (7)

Then the brackets are each randomized, so that for game 1 you get:

SirShua (20)
BringerOfHugs (20)
Lance Echo (20)
Bobo (20)

Where Silence Holds Sway (18)
jest (18)
Victorian Rat (18)

BurnCycle (7)

...but for game 2 you get:

Lance Echo (20)
SirShua (20)
Bobo (20)
BringerOfHugs (20)

jest (18)
Where Silence Holds Sway (18)
Victorian Rat (18)

BurnCycle (7)

So your teams for game 1 are:

SirShua (20)
Lance Echo (20)
Where Silence Holds Sway (18)
Victorian Rat (18)

vs:

BringerOfHugs (20)
Bobo (20)
jest (18)
BurnCycle (7)

...and your teams for game 2 are:

Lance Echo (20)
Bobo (20)
jest (18)
Victorian Rat (18)

vs:

SirShua (20)
BringerOfHugs (20)
Where Silence Holds Sway (18)
BurnCycle (7)

That way you end up with shuffling around so that if there is an imbalance (e.g. due to jest's effective level being more like 1800), at least the imbalance isn't always towards the same group of players, and Victorian Rat doesn't leave the match (hopefully) because she only has to face off against jest ~50% of the time instead of every match.

blincoln
11th Jan 2014, 19:24
In all fairness, if you want a truly balanced matchmaking system, then Psyonix have to come up with a way to put jest (AKA "the edge case") on both teams if he's in a match.

blincoln
11th Jan 2014, 19:55
This would require more complex logic, but it might also be helpful to rank the players based on their actual record (K : D ratio, for example, or median damage meted out in the last 20 matches), versus their level. I'm level 18 because I've played a bunch, but I'm not anywhere near as good as most of the other people with that level :).

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 20:03
The plan is to use a skill rating similar to ELO, or something like you mention. The Rank balancing is a temporary solution until that work is completed.

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 20:15
its safe to play again?

Proxish
11th Jan 2014, 22:43
Finished another match there, where due to players I was matched with still unable to achieve more kills than deaths, I barely won. For the whole match I had 35 kills and 23 assists. Not one player had more kills than deaths on my team, in fact they all had double digit deaths and 3-5 kills. The match making system just isn't working right now.

Pair people by time played and level. And give the option to wait for higher ranking people, rather than having to play with people with little experience. I'd really like a kick system implemented for AFK players, as well as a 24-72 hour ban for leaving more than 3 games in 24 hours.

Razaiim
12th Jan 2014, 01:13
Did a bunch of threads just fusion-ha into one....

Proxish
12th Jan 2014, 03:42
They used the Potara Earrings.

Ruisho
12th Jan 2014, 07:44
Okay well, honestly there is no balance to the game when it comes to Vampires Vs Humans, Vamps damage is way stronger then the Humans. The game is fun no doubt about it but the balancing needs to be touched up on.

Varulven
12th Jan 2014, 09:28
Offtopic of the day:
DRAGONBALL!!!!! :O

RainaAudron
12th Jan 2014, 10:33
Yeah, it was getting out of hand with lot of duplicate threads and often posted in wrong sections... But yeah, yesterday coudln´t find high level players so was forced to some super easy wins.. Give me challenge people :P

Tube_Reaver
12th Jan 2014, 10:57
I think the best thing to do now, would be to have the survival guide post on the main page of the game when you start it up. It really does have a lot of really helpful info, that many new players miss because they don't check the forum or just miss the thread.

cmstache
12th Jan 2014, 14:22
The problem is, because it's team-oriented, none of those stats matter. It'd have to be based on a win ratio vs games played. The problem is that those numbers are based on them as a team, not the individual as we're trying to do. Honestly, the best thing people can do is just suck it up for a bit until beta. It's a team game. One of the first things I did was try to find people to play with on the regular. I reached out to them, because I knew it was required. Even if you find one person I'm sure that person knows another or two. I don't think penalizing the teams in a team game is the way to go here.

Zolfried
12th Jan 2014, 16:46
Is it possible for the matchmaking process to find the players 1st.. and then let us vote for the map?

From what i see, the game picks a map 1st, and then finds 8 players who search that same map, and right now, with this few players, youre basically dividing what few players we have in the lobbies into 2 groups waiting. making the matchmaking process even slower then what it could've been.

Syst3mzero
15th Jan 2014, 04:12
The problem is, because it's team-oriented, none of those stats matter. It'd have to be based on a win ratio vs games played. The problem is that those numbers are based on them as a team, not the individual as we're trying to do. Honestly, the best thing people can do is just suck it up for a bit until beta. It's a team game. One of the first things I did was try to find people to play with on the regular. I reached out to them, because I knew it was required. Even if you find one person I'm sure that person knows another or two. I don't think penalizing the teams in a team game is the way to go here.

actually you can work out team based stats, its just more complex.
earlier tonight I was on a losing team, I was on the team with all the new meat. the New meat wasnt attacking as a team, the only one trying to co ordinate with another team mate was me, i was jumping in the same time as any of the other guys were.
the thing is this shows up in stats like this

my kills were 11 my assists were 8

the rest of the team combined scored 9 kills and in total they had 10 assists

the assists were 3-3-4 . as i have tried to point out assists are an important measure of teamwork, you can see i made more kills than the number of assists in total. you can also see i assisted on all but 1 kill that the rest of the team made.
this means its plain to see I was playing as a team member, the new meat were ramboing.
you can see the rambo mentality even without knowing one of them racked up a kill 1 / death 13 / and assist 3

if you do take deaths into consideration then the number of kills and assists together should be higher than deaths on a losing team if the player is good and substantially higher if on a winning team.

a bad player would have less deaths than the kill assist sum on a losing team and less than or equal to on a winning team.

Nosgoth records all these stats so a good sum would work out the sum like this
k=1 d=1 a=0.5 (so if a player has made 600 kills total in nosgoth they would get 600 points)

k × (a÷2) ÷ d =
then we take that and multiply it by the decimal representation of the percentage of wins (60% wins =0.6)

so 600 kills 1000 assists and 550 deaths = 545
multiply that by a win ratio of 60% and you get a score of 327

this would create a broad scoring system that took into account teamwork, skill, recklessness, win%, and give you a score to assist in balancing the game...

no sum is perfect, yes you may see a flaw, please don't just say "ahhhh but it doesn't take this into account". your negative comments (which things like this always get) mean nothing unless you can actually offer a better sum thats within the confines of reality.

Razaiim
15th Jan 2014, 15:44
Honestly in this game I hate looking at an individual player's stats based on it being a team-game. I find the biggest issue with the newer players is lacking knowledge of how the game works. I've seen new players make incredible shots with their skills, but just don't know how to use them beyond the usual run in and kill what you can mentality from most other PvP arenas. Personally I feel slowing the pace at which players rank up, and then matchmaking based on rank would be enough with out overly complicated K/D/A ratios and scoring. At the higher ranks, then wins and losses will determined more by each players own skill, as (ideally) all players in the match have a solid grasp on the subtleties of the game's mechanics

Omhxyz
18th Jan 2014, 20:06
Whats up with newbies vs veterans all the time? Teams are NEVER balanced, there is always at least 3x people below level 5 and most likely a capped person vs 4x capped/teens. Why not just have the low/high levels split evenly? I havent seen a single game that happened, for a long time. Most of my games this week were unbalanced like hell, which is, not only driving new players away, its just sad/boring for veterans, no matter which side you playing on.


When you look at the total levels of each team, its always something like 65 vs 25 and you KNOW who is most likely going to stomp that match. Not to mention the high level player leaves on countdown or after few minutes into game, cant we have a little punishment for leaving on countdown, like a minute cooldown for their search button..?

Omhxyz
18th Jan 2014, 20:13
OH COME ON.... I just made a topic about it then i find this one, was wondering why no1 bothered to make a topic about it...(never really checking the technical discussion part of the forum..)

Razaiim
18th Jan 2014, 21:07
This has been discussed at length already.

Omhxyz
18th Jan 2014, 21:52
yeah, noticed a little late. Such an important issue and it wasnt even on first page..

Razaiim
19th Jan 2014, 00:50
That's because discussing it further isn't helping. Psyonix knows about it, and are actively working on it, along with everything else on their plate.

GenFeelGood
21st Jan 2014, 00:53
There has been a steady flow of new players to the game which are always a welcome sight, it keeps the game fresh, but it has made a previously identified issue with matchmaking all the more in need of correcting.
The new players are not going to the server intended for them because most are skipping it to get right into the fight with the more experienced players and the ones that want to play that server can never find a match so they end up having to skip.
I have no problem playing with new players and I have no problem playing with new players against veterans, which always results in me and the team getting an ass kicking. This second scenario, however, has been occurring so frequently that I can say that it accounts for about 85% of my experience with the game since returning from the holiday break and I can't say how often it happens to other veterans, but other veterans have reported playing the same scenario.
This is causing a lot of rage quits among the new players and while I can't speak for the other veterans it has been frustrating the hell out of me.

PLEASE FIX THE MATCHMAKING, PLEASE.

Syst3mzero
21st Jan 2014, 02:12
the first time they implemented matchmaking it was taking one lvl 20 player and matching them with the 3 lowest players in the match and then facing them against what was left (normally something like 4 lvl 18s) there were many complaints including from myself (I called it unbelievably broken and got raged at by one of the devs) and so they removed the matchmaking and went back to purely random which is 1 billion times fairer.

However they have since decided to re implement this problem without fixing it which has led to a gaming experience which makes every game fall completely unbalanced if a lvl 20 player is in the game unless a miracle happens like all players are lvl 20s .

The current system is not a match making system as every game outcome can be predicted with 99.9% accuracy (the lvl 20 who is teamed with 3 lvl 1s will lose to the team that has 4 lvl 18s), all I can assume is that they confused matchmaking with match fixing.

its not fun on the winning team, its not fun on the losing team, the new players dislike it, the old players dislike it no one is happy...

despite numerous efforts by the community offering solutions it seems the devs were happy with the current state of the "matchfixing" system or else I'm sure they wouldn't have put it back in without fixing it.

the other explanation could be that we are all imagining it because the QAs *cough20s* haven't had any issues with it.

A dev will probably rage at me despite most of this being fact apart from the assumptions i have based on the supporting evidence.

Key;
underlined is fact
Bold is assumptions based on the available evidence.

GenFeelGood
21st Jan 2014, 02:22
Well that sucks, but thanks for bringing me up to speed.

Razaiim
21st Jan 2014, 02:49
The match maker has been discusses ad nauseam to everyone on this forum. There is a larger thread in the Technical side, which this will eventually be merged with.

Psyonix_Eric
21st Jan 2014, 02:59
it seems the devs were happy with the current state of the "matchfixing" system or else I'm sure they wouldn't have put it back in without fixing it.

Bold is assumptions based on the available evidence.
I wouldn't say this is entirely accurate, or that you're not using all of the available evidence. We've stated time and time again that we're not happy with the current state of matchmaking and that it's our highest priority at the moment. We also said that the initial matchmaking we put in and then quickly reverted was obviously worse than what we had, so instead of leave the system in there not working we went back to the system that was at least partially working. To quote Corey on what he said in the thread you made about it, Syst3mzero:


So it'll be early next week unless we can get Square's server team to roll back to the last stable build you guys were on (we've sent emails, but won't know until tomorrow).

In your own thread it was explained as to why we rolled back. We understand that it's frustrating and it's being worked on, but this is the un-fun of the alpha/beta/testing part of game development. Assuming that we're "happy with it" when we've said everything to the contrary wouldn't be quite correct.

jestdoit
21st Jan 2014, 03:40
A couple observations/bandaid fixes until there's an ELO system:

The level cap's been 18 for months. It doesn't make sense for 20's to be weighed higher than 18's.

The current system puts the lowest ranks on one team, with one highest rank player to carry them. Games would be more competitive if the lowest ranks were divided evenly across both teams.

Psyonix_Corey
21st Jan 2014, 04:00
A couple observations/bandaid fixes until there's an ELO system:

The level cap's been 18 for months. It doesn't make sense for 20's to be weighed higher than 18's.

The current system puts the lowest ranks on one team, with one highest rank player to carry them. Games would be more competitive if the lowest ranks were divided evenly across both teams.

That is the idea. Bugs kept sneaking in that didn't show up in our testing. It's not working as designed.

Syst3mzero
21st Jan 2014, 04:10
I wouldn't say this is entirely accurate, or that you're not using all of the available evidence. We've stated time and time again that we're not happy with the current state of matchmaking and that it's our highest priority at the moment. We also said that the initial matchmaking we put in and then quickly reverted was obviously worse than what we had, so instead of leave the system in there not working we went back to the system that was at least partially working. To quote Corey on what he said in the thread you made about it, Syst3mzero:



In your own thread it was explained as to why we rolled back. We understand that it's frustrating and it's being worked on, but this is the un-fun of the alpha/beta/testing part of game development. Assuming that we're "happy with it" when we've said everything to the contrary wouldn't be quite correct.

Yes I was told you weren't happy with it, yes it was rolled back to remove it, but now its back with avengeance.

I assume you are happy with it as after rolling back you once again implemented the new match fixing system.

If you aren't happy with it then why would you have put it back in having the same problem after removing it? you said you weren't happy with it so you removed it so therefore you must have changed your mind and decided you were happy with it for you to put it back in.... despite it being the same problem still.

prior to this matchmaking there was no identifiable pattern leading to me believing it was random, now its anything but random as its the lvl 20 + 3 lowest lvl players (most often around lvl 1-3 maybe occasionally as high as 8s) vs whatever is left over (normally 15s+).
game after game after game.

The available evidence does support my belief.

One of the things you could do if you actually wanted to keep us well informed is have a STICKY administrator locked patch thread. this could allow you to feed back update information and you could also feed back the issues you are aware of and fixing from the last update.
At the moment occasionally we get a patch update, its not sticky, a new thread is started each time, it rarely covers known issues with the changes made.

At the moment we get little to no feedback and when we do its because we have kicked up a fuss, developers are the right hand and we are the left and the saying goes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. we often have to assume nothing as far as feedback as many suggestions go ignored. one simple suggestion was on the login page i suggested a link to the alpha survival guide as most new players start playing and have no clue how to do basic things like fly, I suggested this months ago, it never got a reply.
thing is if the 2 hands don't know whats going on with the other one day you are going to be preparing food and end up a few fingers down.

up until this month i was trying to not point out that i have knowledge in project management of software rollout as I already come off as an arrogant jerk, but i put it out there a couple of weeks ago because you don't seem to see my suggestions are coming from someone who used to be the problem solver who would supersede project managers who had failing projects. Im also going to put it out there that I can no longer do that due to health reasons restricting me being able to work any more and that i can't keep up with the pace as my brain cant handle it due to mental degradation which causes periods of heavy confusion in which i cant even type.

before trying to match wits with me ask yourself the question is it that he is wrong or is it that I don't like his attitude?
when you are honest you will find i have a cold logic and a completely dis-likeable personality.

lets put it this way when my mother was worried she may die from the cancer she had she came to seek refuge at my house as she needed to escape the abundance of emotional support the rest of the family gave her and she knew I could only fake concern and emotion. she wanted a real opinion then she wanted to change subject and have a cup of tea.

she has accepted what I am and can see the benefits, more people should learn to.

Syst3mzero
21st Jan 2014, 04:14
That is the idea. Bugs kept sneaking in that didn't show up in our testing. It's not working as designed.

thank you Corey, nice to get some feedback but so more people come across things like this could you sticky and lock a "patch and feedback to testers" thread. that way we dont have to stumble across the right thread to get info and if you lock it to yourselves it won't get junked up by testers.

I feel the relationship would be more harmonious if we could see feedback like this even when its just a short post like you just posted.

Strike5150
21st Jan 2014, 10:48
I think the relationship would be more harmonious if you didn't rage like a 5 year old(I'll say it, I know the devs can't). You have a strong track record on this forum for being abusive and raging about everything. Its really frustrating for everyone and yet we manage to voice our concerns without badgering the devs.

Clearly the devs care about the game and it shouldn't be a big effort to realize this, also they have to play the games we play. I'm sure they have made the same experience as you with matchmaking. They are not on your schedule, they have their own.

Thirdly it has clearly escaped you that there are public, private forums, facebook, reddit and twitter. Now they do have a community manager but thats a ton of stuff to read and keep up to date everyday. One person cannot manage that alone, you need to be a little more flexible.

cmstache
21st Jan 2014, 14:19
It would also help if the newbies actually stayed in the game they are losing instead of leaving 3 min into the first round. How can they expect to learn when it's 6-1 when they leave? That's not even enough time to even consider it a blowout.

TecKnoe
21st Jan 2014, 22:51
as a newer player, i think i played with jest a few times last night, i will say i sat in the 1-5 que for over 45 minutes and thats just unacceptable (never got a game), even after using the other que system it took well over 10-15 minutes.

TecKnoe
21st Jan 2014, 23:32
is matchmaking actually broken and thats why it takes so long, or is there literally just not enough active players? i badly wanna play this and test it but sadly games just dont fill.

TecKnoe
21st Jan 2014, 23:44
it would honestly help if we the newbs or anyone could find a damn game ~_~

Psyonix_Corey
21st Jan 2014, 23:52
is matchmaking actually broken and thats why it takes so long, or is there literally just not enough active players? i badly wanna play this and test it but sadly games just dont fill.

It's a combination. There's a lack of players until we get to Beta, but there's also bugs like where you'll end up in a lobby by yourself and never find a better match. Sometimes it helps to quit out and search again if you're stuck in a solo lobby for too long, as a bandaid for now.

RainaAudron
21st Jan 2014, 23:59
Also, joining a friend´s lobby also highers up the chance of finding more players.

Syst3mzero
22nd Jan 2014, 00:52
I think the relationship would be more harmonious if you didn't rage like a 5 year old(I'll say it, I know the devs can't). You have a strong track record on this forum for being abusive and raging about everything. Its really frustrating for everyone and yet we manage to voice our concerns without badgering the devs.

Clearly the devs care about the game and it shouldn't be a big effort to realize this, also they have to play the games we play. I'm sure they have made the same experience as you with matchmaking. They are not on your schedule, they have their own.

Thirdly it has clearly escaped you that there are public, private forums, facebook, reddit and twitter. Now they do have a community manager but thats a ton of stuff to read and keep up to date everyday. One person cannot manage that alone, you need to be a little more flexible.

LOL

Strike just try reading it without the rage, you are presuming emotional intent. the nearest thing to rage is a small piece of sarcasm when I called it the match fixing system, other than that if you have attributed emotion to it and that is your own doing.

The same goes for this post. I quite like you, we have played quite a few games together and I have no problem with you although you will most probably believe this is me raging at you.

magalor
26th Jan 2014, 20:19
Hey guys. this games awesome and fun to play from being a super vamp or the underdog humans fighting for survival. but the matchmaking kinda sucks imo. Having to wait a full minute before it ever starts to search for people is bad. Now i've had times when i've been waiting 10+ minutes for a simple 4v4... durring the weekend at like 5 pm central time. I'm not sure if this is because of lack of players or what but game would be so much better if i could just pop into a game in less than 3 minutes. you spend about 1/3 of your time lookig for a game since matches are usually about 8 mins long per side followed by a 10 min que to get into next game. just slows the game down so much and this feels like an easy fix to me. hope to see this improve as the game enters beta but till than makes it rough to wanna sit and play for an extended amount of time when i can go hop into a game of hearthstone in less than a minute and thats with launching the game to begin with.

Sekuiya
27th Jan 2014, 05:31
You can't exactly compare the amount of players and polish that a game like Hearthstone has to Nosgoth which has a very limited number of players and still in alpha stage. And don't forget that Hearthstone is 1Vs1.

Give it time. In time, probably when the game goes to beta, the player base will be big enough for matches to start rather quickly.

Dagren
8th Feb 2014, 11:00
I couldn't play Nosgoth for a while since my PSU and motherboard decided to die on me so I came back to it recently after RMA hell.
And I must say I enjoy the game quite a bit but one thing I really think should have been fixed by now is still around:
what is wrong with that matchmaking?

After a game we are usually stuck in the lobby in like forever if some people leave the game during intermission: each time it would take forever to fill up the game, and we're left chatting about how that issue is still around and that surely there must be other people in other lobbies waiting for a game just as we do.

Since I haven't heard from Psyonix about that issue, I decided to create a thread about it.
I must say I usually prefer the "server list" way of doing matchmaking. But I kind of understand why it's harder to find a solution from a design standpoint, since Nosgoth requires 4 on 4 players otherwise the balance is completely broken (unlike games like TF2). Still, I think there is a problem in the "add new players to lobby" feature of the game, or are we so few in the alpha?

Malphas-von-Holle
8th Feb 2014, 19:01
I apologize if there's information about this that I missed, but I've checked everywhere:

Is there a reason I'm only joining EU servers? The latency is rather annoying.

Sekuiya
10th Feb 2014, 02:41
My best bet? Though luck.
You'll probably end up in more NA servers when the player base grows.

Saecred-XIV
10th Feb 2014, 16:50
At this time, the majority of the active Alpha players are based in EU. Depending on which hours you're logging on as well as which servers are currently most active you may indeed find yourself ending up on EU servers.

This should be less of an issue, if any, once the game goes Beta. There are changes in-works that haven't been announced or implemented yet.

I hope this helps out with your current concern!

-SXIV

FranzoGames
12th Feb 2014, 12:03
Hello guys, my games dont start, i meant... the match, dont start, looks like there are no players in EU, can u confirm it? When i try to search a match, i just find like 3/4 players, and match wont start... what can i do?

hirukaru
12th Feb 2014, 14:14
Franzogames, The game is in alpha and people are working at 12:00. This means people are not online playing the game.
When beta starts the player base will be bigger and when OB comes it will even be larger then that.
You should try again in like 3/4 hours.

Malphas-von-Holle
12th Feb 2014, 18:59
At this time, the majority of the active Alpha players are based in EU. Depending on which hours you're logging on as well as which servers are currently most active you may indeed find yourself ending up on EU servers.

This should be less of an issue, if any, once the game goes Beta. There are changes in-works that haven't been announced or implemented yet.

I hope this helps out with your current concern!

-SXIV


Thank you very much! Your team is doing a wonderful job!

PWride
27th Feb 2014, 15:51
Hi,

George has just created a thread about access problems with the closed beta so if you have those please use that thread; http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=10303

If you manage to get in to the game and experience loadout issues, invisible players, team balance oddities or anything else a little "spooky" it would be great if we can use this thread to list them all so there's a separate thread for those in-game things the team can reference.

Thanks!

AkRaziel
27th Feb 2014, 16:07
Hi.
"Waiting to servers load armory" or smth like that... and than just nothing happens, i cannot play, spectate one spot in the map, dead...
And also havent any loadouts , cant see any skills and etc

skyninjacid
27th Feb 2014, 17:15
i been having that issue as well

Psyonix_Corey
27th Feb 2014, 17:27
Should be fixed now

skyninjacid
27th Feb 2014, 17:39
i reinstalled the game on my end just to make sure nothing was missing and i still dont see anything

skyninjacid
27th Feb 2014, 17:48
i would really like help with not being able to see my inventory or armory i cant play in games at all just says Waiting to server load armory .please help

mappalazarou
27th Feb 2014, 17:58
Everything on the opening menu appears fine to me and I was even able to purchase something in the inventory. However I cannot access the game itself. I keep getting kicked before the match starts. Either I'm not liked or there's a problem...

joshiwe
27th Feb 2014, 18:28
I got the same problem with my armory. Nothing, not even a weapon :( Shop won't load and new's Site some things either.

mappalazarou
27th Feb 2014, 19:07
Just tried again. Could it be a problem with the EU servers?

EDIT: To clarify, I can load up the main menu with no problem but every time I head in game. It loads the map, then goes to the spinning Nosgoth-symbol screen, then reverts back to the main menu. Used to happen on the first day I joined Alpha but the problem seemed to resolve itself.

Any advice?

Ghayrog
27th Feb 2014, 19:16
Can't buy runestones for roubles ("Item cannot be purchased with this currency type")

Tadziu8
27th Feb 2014, 21:20
Just ran it for the first time. Empty armory and the "Free daily perks" thingie in news is empty as well

totalBoricua
28th Feb 2014, 01:45
This will be a forums I will post up as I find certain problems within the game, I will be recounting my experience. These will be legitimate bug and glitches posted, no crying about how "OP" something is :cool:. This forum will be updated as soon as I can as I find any bugs/glitches. Feel free to contact me or post your own glitches/bugs.

Glitches/bugs found so far:
1) Team Matchups: becomes a 3v5 instead of a 4v4. Details: teammate gets sent to other team, becomes a 3v5 situation
2) Graphical glitch: upon the death of an enemy tyrant, found a floating inanimate model of the class within the area. Although it was not placed upon the area of death, it was found after we had killed him.
3) Animation glitch: As the reaver, I pounced upon an enemy human unto a resupply station, which caused us to glitch into a rapid and continuous upward-downward motion due to a collision with the wall
4) in game lobby glitch which made me nameless

Degreeless
28th Feb 2014, 09:32
Having issues trying to join a game. It looks for Best Games, then Any Games and finally flashes a message saying there are no servers and to consult a link for information on the server status. Further attempts don't bring up the Matchmaking prompt but do eventually yield the same message on server status.

skyninjacid
28th Feb 2014, 13:14
im still haveing armory issue and load out bug..its still not leting me play

Sos_Rahgol
28th Feb 2014, 13:44
The main problem i am running into is that my controls do not register for my character. At times i can not move forward, backwards, or side to side. Also while playing as a human i cannot access the health and ammo refill station. I have stood iin front of the station for a minute holding down E and nothing happened.

iGunt3r
28th Feb 2014, 14:42
When i oppen the game it says Not network connection to online suite availiable

tugapt
28th Feb 2014, 15:30
Same thing in here no server available then the search button spot working

Ghayrog
28th Feb 2014, 15:38
I saw this today, I think this is far from being normal ^_^
Screenshot (http://i61.tinypic.com/16la7bp.png)

AbWill
28th Feb 2014, 19:51
I'm getting random CTD's. Can't give you a specific, or any action that causes it. Is there still a crash log in the file structure? I've noticed a small issue. When I chose to be sentinel, and picked the abduct with damage attack, then changed my mind and chose reaver, the abduct with damage was still chosen for the reaver. Also, in general, abduct is a lot harder to make a successful strike, and is bordering on frustrating now.

UnknownSide
1st Mar 2014, 03:08
So having a few issues, when logging onto Nosgoth sometimes I get this message "No network connection to online suite available." and it doesn't let me on, after restarting the game it usually goes away. Also am getting issues when I select the Armory, every time I do the game stops responding. Once I finally get into a match and it's about to start it does the same thing and makes the program go to not responding and forces me to exit, although I was able to get into one game a few hours earlier but since then I haven't changed anything and it keeps kicking me out.

Tadziu8
2nd Mar 2014, 09:10
When I run the game it syncs my "Online Profile" and then "Downloading Armory" shows up for a second and vanishes but there are still no loadouts and when I click armory its empty and there is a 01/00 on the bottom.

RainaAudron
2nd Mar 2014, 17:54
Sometimes it crashes when a round ends without any reason and also there is still the on-going problem with searching for servers (kept giving me "no servers available" while my friends were playing), or once you try to return to the same game it usually won´t let you, it is very annoying. And this happened few times too :D http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/3334092460846188323/3B0F14ED20B6483B6CC851394D9BF270DEA59219/

UnknownSide
8th Mar 2014, 03:12
So for about 2 days I've gotten this message and originally thought servers were down for maintenance but 2 days so.

I'm getting this anytime I try to log into a game "There are currently no servers available. Please check www.nosgoth.com/servers for status updates and try again at a later time." It brings me to the schedules for alpha testing but doesn't show anything. I'm might just be impatient, but I haven't seen any notification of server down time and I can get into the game just not play it.

sadfunker23
9th Mar 2014, 01:16
i cant play either

UnknownSide
11th Mar 2014, 01:34
So just posting because I still can't get into a game in Nosgoth, about 5 days since I've been able to and any information or response would definitely be appreciated. (Same issue as I previously stated)

RainaAudron
11th Mar 2014, 12:48
Do you have any friends who play Nosgoth? Maybe try to be invited them if you do?

hippocrab
12th Mar 2014, 15:49
Today My friend invited me to a lobby, when we had full lobby it began to connect and then dropped me and not him saying there were no servers available. Ive tried clicking on other threads in this forum but it says i have no permission therefore im creating a new one. Im not sure this is a glitch per se but i am certain my ISP is fine and its not anything with my computer. I havent had network issues at all. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks

-Kainh-
13th Mar 2014, 08:19
Same problem, I tried to play game but shows me "Error,There are currently no servers available. Please check www.nosgoth.com/servers for status updates and try again at a later time."

RainaAudron
13th Mar 2014, 10:31
Hm, it might be that lobbys are full and none is available (I get this from time to time as well), can´t really say though.

YulisViento
13th Mar 2014, 11:58
The game crashes very often. Mainly when I'm trying to enter the game or I'm entering some match. Only once it falled while playing.
There is any error notification when crashes.

-Kainh-
13th Mar 2014, 12:04
Hm, it might be that lobbys are full and none is available (I get this from time to time as well), can´t really say though.
mm maybe is a problem with my account, because a friend of mine is trying at the same time, he can play the game , I don't

RainaAudron
13th Mar 2014, 12:15
That´s indeed weird... Can you contact Tech support? (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?f=98&a=4)

-Kainh-
13th Mar 2014, 12:27
Just done :) thank you Raina

cmstache
13th Mar 2014, 12:35
I've seen it some, it comes and goes randomly, regardless of peoples' activity or not. Often you can only join via invites. I'm pretty sure it's been reported, it happened in Alpha some too.

-Kainh-
13th Mar 2014, 14:50
I've seen it some, it comes and goes randomly, regardless of peoples' activity or not. Often you can only join via invites. I'm pretty sure it's been reported, it happened in Alpha some too.
I tried with my friend, he invite me but still don't work.. :/ Shows me that I can't join the match.
I don't know, I play without problem on xbox live, I don't think that's a line problem.

-Kainh-
13th Mar 2014, 16:28
I tried with my friend, he invite me but still don't work.. :/ Shows me that I can't join the match.
I don't know, I play without problem on xbox live, I don't think that's a line problem.
After updating the game with today's new release is still not working..

cmstache
13th Mar 2014, 17:44
Matchmaking has issues, but there were no fixes for that part of the game this patch.

-Kainh-
13th Mar 2014, 20:16
Matchmaking has issues, but there were no fixes for that part of the game this patch.

Oh well. Good to know that :) I hope that the tech support reply me soon

UnknownSide
18th Mar 2014, 21:53
Definately gonna contact tech support tomorrow, they're closed now i think. Been since the 5th or 6th of march since I got the "no servers available" and it hasn't changed since, hopefully they can at least give me a few things to try sucks just not doing anything about it hehe.

MasterShuriko
4th Apr 2014, 11:34
After the update today 4th of april 2014 the matchmaking is still wonky.
First game I join turned out to be a 5vs3 game.

Khalith
4th Apr 2014, 11:49
I can attest to this, all day I saw several 3v5 and 2v6, it's been getting worse lately. I can say though, this is only happening in the TDM lobbies, not the Siege lobbies. With so many broken TDM lobbies a few people have been trying Siege, it's been fun.

Petire
27th Apr 2014, 18:27
Just a quick suggestion, until the Party system is fixed, can we go back to the old way of no actual parties you can be in the same game as your friends but not guaranteed on the same team. Would just make everything a lot easier and a lot nicer on people who are just coming from new recruit and are going against the high level stacks.

Thanks,
petire

MasterFurbz
27th Apr 2014, 23:32
Just a quick suggestion, until the Party system is fixed, can we go back to the old way of no actual parties you can be in the same game as your friends but not guaranteed on the same team. Would just make everything a lot easier and a lot nicer on people who are just coming from new recruit and are going against the high level stacks.

Thanks,
petire

Personally I'm indifferent. I can see both sides of the issue. New players should have a fair break at even games, disabling parties will theoretically do this and possibly help retention. On the other hand, people should (and this includes new players) have the right to play in a party with their friends. Especially for the up and coming clans that would like to hone their skills. Friends not being able to play together can be equally detrimental.

Petire
27th Apr 2014, 23:49
And I agree you should be able to play with your friends, but not stomping with friends is not fun for the other side. plus you will still be in the same game, and who doesn't love beating up a friend in a game like this?

SableWind
4th May 2014, 03:39
Just a quick suggestion, until the Party system is fixed, can we go back to the old way of no actual parties you can be in the same game as your friends but not guaranteed on the same team. Would just make everything a lot easier and a lot nicer on people who are just coming from new recruit and are going against the high level stacks.

Thanks,
petire

I actually agree with this. It would help with a lot of the new recruits who have been complaining about how difficult the transition from recruit to TDM is, and it would help with team balance. As much as I love crushing a bunch of lowbies with a full level 40-team... it's far from fair. And it definitely discourages the lower-level team, and often leads to leavers and matches that are 4v3/2/1, in addition to the level imbalance.

It will also help those lowbies who group up together and do nothing but lose together (3/4 lowbies grouped up are going to have the higher level people on the other team just by default). I have a few friends who aren't exactly good players who continue to group up and lose consistently, because they're a bunch of lowbies against people who have been playing since Alpha - who aren't even grouped up.

It's one of those fixes that I feel people might not like on its premise, but will lead to more enjoyable balanced games. As it is, some of those same lowbie friends I mentioned before have barely played the game since they got out of the recruit lobby. Losing every game because of premades and imbalanced teams is not conducive to keeping a strong playerbase :\

EDIT:

Oh, I forgot to mention that I think this is as good idea until better lobbies come out that can help people sort by casual play and competitive/ranked play. Or premade lobbies. Or whatever the case may be.

PencileyePirate
5th May 2014, 05:14
Right now I'm so frustrated I almost want to uninstall. Not trying to flame, just pointing out (and concerned) that matchmaking is quickly becoming a potential cause for low player retention rate. Among the many examples ...


Join on friend often and repeatedly sends me to a completely different lobby from my friend.


Party system is horribly broken, e.g. a friend joining on you can kick you from your current party, there's no indication of teams (so you don't whether your party will be split) up until the last second, etc.


Players try to adjust team balance or get into another lobby by repeatedly leaving & reconnecting (the problem applies to both lobbies and ongoing matches, though player reasoning may differ.)


Random, infrequent disconnects from lobbies while waiting for match start.


Lobbies sometimes fill up but never start.


Matches sometimes start but leave one player at lobby screen instead of in-game, requiring the player to re/dis-connect.

I know the devs are aware of many of these issues and working on matchmaking, though I'm wondering specifically which will be addressed in the next patch, and can we get a general idea of when that's coming?

ICantPauseItMom
5th May 2014, 08:47
All pretty well known issues.

Party system is much better then it was, but still has some issues, but honestly not as bad as you make it sound.
Sometimes I get the "go to completely other room" issue as well, then that friend just needs to leave that room and re-enter to fix it, assuming its not full.

But ya, these issues are going to be fix bit by bit over the beta stages :3

Petire
5th May 2014, 22:15
The major problem I keep hearing about removing it is that "you won't grow eSports" well it won't grow with zero matchmaking for parties, I am sure that will be fixed in patches coming Soon™ so I just hope that we can make it through that.

I hope that people will either be able to understand if party system has to be removed or understand that they will have to deal with the "stomps" until it is fixed

Sanguise23
6th May 2014, 12:42
Personally I'm indifferent. I can see both sides of the issue. New players should have a fair break at even games, disabling parties will theoretically do this and possibly help retention. On the other hand, people should (and this includes new players) have the right to play in a party with their friends. Especially for the up and coming clans that would like to hone their skills. Friends not being able to play together can be equally detrimental.

for the most part i agree with this i have been on both sides, but if i had to choose id say disable teams till open beta, man thats hard to say but i think it would be best for newbies

RainaAudron
6th May 2014, 13:36
Maybe they should increase the cap for New Recruit until lv 15...

MasterZtark
6th May 2014, 13:37
for the most part i agree with this i have been on both sides, but if i had to choose id say disable teams till open beta, man thats hard to say but i think it would be best for newbies

I agree, considering this is still closed beta.

XJadeDragoonX
6th May 2014, 13:44
i think the main issue is nobody even uses the recruit lobby. you should be required to use it and if you dont find a game within a certain amount of time, than they should be transferred to the regular lobby.

ICantPauseItMom
6th May 2014, 13:58
People really need to get over this "OMG WE HATE PREMADE" and "OMG PARTY SYSTEM IS BROKEN FIX QQ"
First of, they are not going to get rid of "pre-mades" get over it, in the future when its fully release, you shouldn't have to much, if at all, an issue.
2nd, yes they are kinda buggy, but honestly I can get into party's most of the times I want.
If you want to vs your friend and such, then just don't make a party.
When I first started, all there was were high levels, 30+ all around. Thats all I had to play against for at least a week, but in the end, it turned me into a good player. Ya it can suck I agree but, ya.... enough of these topics >_<

Voradors
6th May 2014, 14:03
I would be cool with this happening.

If it happens, i would recommend a special note be added to the Message of the Day or News feed in the game that explains the change. If not, the large part of the player base that doesnt read the forums wont know what is going on and just get frustrated.

TendrilSavant
8th May 2014, 00:09
People really need to get over this "OMG WE HATE PREMADE" and "OMG PARTY SYSTEM IS BROKEN FIX QQ"
First of, they are not going to get rid of "pre-mades" get over it, in the future when its fully release, you shouldn't have to much, if at all, an issue.
No, people need to get over defending a rushed and unnecessary feature that is seriously effecting player retention. The feature felt rushed since it came out near the time founders packs were available, and it's unnecessary at this point in development because we don't have the player base to support it.

The gap between newbie and experienced player is getting wider and wider. I see a lot of new players with low levels, but I rarely see those in the mid levels of 20-30. I'm inferring that less players make it past this point due to the uphill battle they face fighting high level parties. I'm also seeing less people from my friend list from alpha still playing.

If I've added you as a friend, I enjoy playing with you on my team AND against you. While the match making in alpha wasn't perfect, I enjoyed it more than having to fight parties. The game is more balanced now that it was in alpha, but rarely will a group of randoms be able to compete with a party of 3-4.

When there is actual scrim support (party vs party) I'll probably spend most of my time there polishing my skills, but at the moment I find no fun in being on either side of a pub stomp.

RazielOfNosgoth
8th May 2014, 13:44
I agree completely.

I get stomped all over so much more since the system was introduced, there's no stopping such experienced players with a PUG. Spawn, confront, get eaten/killed. Spawn, confront, get eaten/killed. A vicious cycle, and after a few such matches in a row - frustrating and not much fun to play...

For the time being, at least.

Denhonator
8th May 2014, 15:32
I tend to often get a matchup with the lower level players (10-25) and other team has like two 30-45 players and two 20-30 players.
These times I just think that I know who's going to win, and I've always been right. I don't mean I surrender, I really try my best, but the other team clearly has more experience and teamwork.
This scenario also applies the other way.

Sanguise23
8th May 2014, 16:30
LOTS of other threads about this

Denhonator
8th May 2014, 16:34
LOTS of other threads about this I am too tired of reading to notice

PhilFourFingers
8th May 2014, 19:32
I can say that I had a lot more fun playing the game when I was level 10-15 then now that I am level 26, Not being very good at the game myself I still like playing it and would like to play it with other people that are as not good as me. Now most of the time I get in games with mostly 35-41 level players that have grouped and I am lucky if I can land a kill all game, plus that leads to a lot of people quitting mid game ending 2 guys who play poorly togheter (or alone as it happened twice yesterday) against a team of micked people who have the coordination of a marine unit.

So yeah, I'm having less and less fun the more my level of "experience" goes up. skill does not equal rank.

ICantPauseItMom
8th May 2014, 19:54
No, people need to get over defending a rushed and unnecessary feature that is seriously effecting player retention. The feature felt rushed since it came out near the time founders packs were available, and it's unnecessary at this point in development because we don't have the player base to support it.

The gap between newbie and experienced player is getting wider and wider. I see a lot of new players with low levels, but I rarely see those in the mid levels of 20-30. I'm inferring that less players make it past this point due to the uphill battle they face fighting high level parties. I'm also seeing less people from my friend list from alpha still playing.

If I've added you as a friend, I enjoy playing with you on my team AND against you. While the match making in alpha wasn't perfect, I enjoyed it more than having to fight parties. The game is more balanced now that it was in alpha, but rarely will a group of randoms be able to compete with a party of 3-4.

When there is actual scrim support (party vs party) I'll probably spend most of my time there polishing my skills, but at the moment I find no fun in being on either side of a pub stomp.

They are aware, and been made aware over and over, and more n more it sounds like complaining.
Its beta, so things will be crappy till patches come out n fix it.

TendrilSavant
8th May 2014, 21:11
They are aware, and been made aware over and over, and more n more it sounds like complaining.
It's not complaining, it's feedback. I've played other F2P games that hastily added party systems into pubs only to find it easily lead to pub stomps AND then quickly removed the function. It's best to leave organized play out of pubs and keep it in a separate queue/private lobbies, in my opinion.


If you want to vs your friend and such, then just don't make a party.
That's not the problem. On US servers there's at least 2-3 parties/clans that stack just to win/stomp. They spam search until they find an empty lobby, stack 4 and wait until it fills. Most unsuspecting players end up rage quitting that lobby within minutes; so you either have to avoid these lobbies, suck it up or try to stack against them. But since they stacked first it's very unlikely you'll be able to set up a proper 4v4.

The current party system feels rushed since it wasn't designed to anticipate this behavior. It seems to me, it was put in because people were complaining about paying for early access (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=11937) with no party system.

SiD_Green
9th May 2014, 16:12
I agree; teamwork is so essential in this game, it's a real bummer at this point having to so consistently face premade parties that have way better teamwork than randoms can hope to have, and are often on private chat together to boot. It's become hard to enjoy most games.

Petire
9th May 2014, 17:04
They are aware, and been made aware over and over, and more n more it sounds like complaining.
Its beta, so things will be crappy till patches come out n fix it.


I am not complaining I was just making a suggestion to the devs simply to remove the system that forces people who are in the party onto the same team. At least until they fix matchmaking or give us custom lobbies. I know many people have come to the forums and complained about the matchmaking, I was making a suggestion on how to fix that "problem"

cmstache
9th May 2014, 19:41
They did that previously. The quality of play reduced drastically for everyone. It didn't fix the problem much (and many players just stopped playing until it came back) because those who have experience in pre-made parties (early-mid Alpha players, in particular) knew how to play as an organized party, whereas newer players didn't. It's not something you can learn in a random party, as they are always different. The game is designed to be played as a team and you can't effectively test things in a teams setting without teams being there.

Voradors
9th May 2014, 20:05
You cant effectively test teamS when there is only one team in a game. That is just a test of how hard you can stomp some random and unorganized players.

The point of that it makes some of the vets grow tired of the game is a fair one, but these 30-5 games are making vets get tired of it as well, while completely driving away the newer players at the same time.

Regardless of what, I hope the devs decide to do something soon. Matchmaking is a huge priority for any game......more so for any team based game.

cmstache
9th May 2014, 20:22
There is more than one team in the game, in fact there are several. And believe it or not, most of them go out of their way to not completely "stomp" random players, as that's no fun, and take that time to practice new loadouts, skills, etc. that they normally can't do. Sure, there are a couple teams that make it 30-5, but there aren't many. And these teams do try to go out of their way, whenever possible, to play vs. other teams.

NO matchmaking system at this point will work due to the player-base size. The best thing you can hope for is private lobbies. Telling friends that they can't play together because they are too good is just dumb. A better use of time would be to keep level 4-10 players out of tdm, but even that will be abused. It's one of those things that people are just going to have to suck up. If they don't test skills in a team dynamic, even if it's not as much as would be preferred, then it'll all just have to be redone later on.

Voradors
9th May 2014, 20:51
By one team, i meant matches with 1 team vs 4 random people, not that there is only 1 team of people in Nosgoth. It is very rare to get 2 full teams in a match. That really isnt a great way to test stuff....

Since teamwork is such a huge factor in this game, even under powered abilities that normally dont have great synergy would be enough to dominate random people.
I really dont see the point in testing team dynamics when it isnt one team vs one team.

I will use Choking Haze as an example, since there are a lot of talk about it being overpowered. Most of the vets know that the ability is very useful, but it isnt overpowered since its very easy to hear and it is easy to dodge away from before taking any damage. It is very effective in splitting up opponents if thrown properly, but it shouldnt do a lot of damage by itself.
When Choking Haze isused by a coordinated team with 2-4 Reavers will come off as extremely over powered to a group of pugs that just got dominated by it. This means that poor feedback is being provided due to the poorer testing circumstances, and balance changes will be made that will ultimately need to be reworked once actual team games start to be played.

I do agree that the player base isnt large enough to make a lot of options for matchmaking viable, but SOMETHING does need to be done or else the small player base will grow even smaller, and those that leave will have a very poor experience and are unlikely to come back. But that was already said in a different thread....
So many people are getting founders packs, or getting beta invites from friends, just to get into the game just to be completely stomped. It makes new players think that there are balance issues with the game itself, and they give up.

EDIT: just to try to provide another example of what i mean, lets take the Dominate Mind and Choking Haze combo that was recently brought up. With good coordination, this is enough to kill 1 human while 2 vampires stay relatively out of harms way. Is it overpowered? That depends....
Doing this effectively requires coordination, so it will require a team. This means that in the current system it is unlikely the people on the receiving end of this are in a team, and so they will not be likely too coordinate a counter and catch the Deceiver before he can take full advantage of the Choking Haze. So...it may appear overpowered to some. However, this same guaranteed kill could have been accomplished in so many other ways....like just two coordinated backstabs. Or an Abduct and a coordinated pounce...or the list goes on.
Cant really test balance until there is a balanced system in place. At this point random teams feel more balanced than pub stomping parties.

cmstache
9th May 2014, 22:53
Thank you for proving my point Varodors. Dominate mind and CH happens with any good DM users. Sure, it's less often, but it's still fairly frequent if you pay attention. And pounce/abduct combos don't happen much unless you just happen to be in the situation. I do it more often with random parties than I do premades, purely because it's really not of any benefit. These issues occur when you get players who are used to partying vs players who aren't regardless of whether they are in premade teams.

Realistically, even by dropping them the players will still do the same combos. The only difference is that less players will create their own teams since there's no longer a point. Thus, further increasing the skill gap. It happened before when teams got dropped the first time. You had "good players" vs. "good players who were used to parties" even though no parties were around. You place a cap on players' abilities to learn, which is bad. I'm not saying this isn't an issue, but there's really nothing that can be done at the moment.

SiD_Green
10th May 2014, 07:03
I don't really follow you, cmstache. Are you suggesting that having one team that works effectively together, also meaning they are learning the game more, is really better than simply everyone being on random teams? How is that better, in any way? For a while now, at LEAST a quarter of the games I join have one team with a premade that's ahead by 10-20, and typically more than just the one leaver on my team.

I don't think it makes sense to allow people playing in organized teams like that to have such an advantage, simply so that they can learn the game even better/faster and end up with a bigger advantage.

RazielOfNosgoth
11th May 2014, 12:45
Teams vs. Teams - Randoms vs. Randoms, I say. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/images/icons/icon3.png

There are already quite a few experienced teams out there, they should just get connected and play with each other, eventually adding a random or two when need be, if the team isn't complete. Now that's a challenge worth the effort. But at least try to keep it balanced, making it more fun for everyone. Otherwise it's merely farming i.e. stomping. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Personally, I find it more fascinating and exciting to make a random team work, since you never know what to expect from your own or the opposing team. Full of surprises and as such can work in both ways, but the point is that in a random match - all are equally unprepared, in working as a team. For me, this is more of a challenge and also, more fun. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Just my 2¢. :whistle:

Voradors
12th May 2014, 14:46
Thank you for proving my point Varodors. Dominate mind and CH happens with any good DM users. Sure, it's less often, but it's still fairly frequent if you pay attention. And pounce/abduct combos don't happen much unless you just happen to be in the situation. I do it more often with random parties than I do premades, purely because it's really not of any benefit. These issues occur when you get players who are used to partying vs players who aren't regardless of whether they are in premade teams.

Realistically, even by dropping them the players will still do the same combos. The only difference is that less players will create their own teams since there's no longer a point. Thus, further increasing the skill gap. It happened before when teams got dropped the first time. You had "good players" vs. "good players who were used to parties" even though no parties were around. You place a cap on players' abilities to learn, which is bad. I'm not saying this isn't an issue, but there's really nothing that can be done at the moment.

Did you just go from saying that the devs should leave parties in place because it is required to work on team synergy, which is not as possible without premade teams, then immediately say that you experience more teamwork when in random teams......? That it only requires that you pay attention and learn how to use your abilities to use them effectively....? That it is not actual premade team itself that is required to accomplish this synergy...?

This thread is getting long winded at this point. (edit: i am the primary offender in that...i have a tendency to ramble.)

To sum up....
1 premade team vs randoms = unbalanced
Balancing classes, abilities, weapons and perks based on the feedback that is being provided from unbalanced matches = flawed.
Causing people feel the game is more unbalanced than it is, will make them move on and make the already small player base smaller. This in turn makes fixing matchmaking more difficult.
Once balanced matches are taking place, the true balance of abilities, classes, and weapons can be evaluated.

I know from experience the only time i get frustrated this game is when i go up against a premade team, and the only time i get bored is when i am on a premade team that is stomping randoms. (And before it is said, i have already said in the past i will usually use a class i need practice on in those circumstances)

cmstache
12th May 2014, 15:08
To sum up....
1 premade team vs randoms = unbalanced
Balancing classes, abilities, weapons and perks based on the feedback that is being provided from unbalanced matches = flawed.
Causing people feel the game is more unbalanced than it is, will make them move on and make the already small player base smaller. This in turn makes fixing matchmaking more difficult.
Once balanced matches are taking place, the true balance of abilities, classes, and weapons can be evaluated.

I can agree on that. I think issues start arising when you start trying to "fix things." But as a summary of the actual problems, I think that most people would agree to that.

Voradors
12th May 2014, 17:48
Any ideas on ways to improve the current matchmaking, that would be doable with the smaller community?

Other than what was already suggested, to allowing parties to be split amongst the two teams for balance, i havent been able to think of anything.
Personally, i think it is more important to work on the matchmaking and balance of teams than to focus on party synergy in a beta.

PencileyePirate
12th May 2014, 21:24
Just give us a server browser so we can choose the lobbies/matches we join. Multiple problems solved.

Also, when someone joins a 2v3/3v3/etc. it should always put them on the losing team. Currently this doesn't happen consistently.

TendrilSavant
13th May 2014, 04:46
I can agree on that. I think issues start arising when you start trying to "fix things." But as a summary of the actual problems, I think that most people would agree to that.

Going back to the initial post, we're not asking for a fix to matchmaking (as simple as is sounds, it's quite the programming task) but a regression to end of alpha where parties were disabled. From what I've read, match making will be improved after Prophet is released which could be a few weeks to a month from now. I don't think I can endure party stacking until then, I'm already playing a lot less as is.

I know the devs are doing their best to get us better match making, but it could take a lot longer than initially estimated. From experience playing other F2P games that run on the Unreal engine, improvements to match making are hard to develop and usually take a long time to release.

Autophagia2012
19th May 2014, 19:30
After paying for a founders pack, I find myself regretting it. I know this is a beta, and there will be problems. That being said you can't blame every problem due to the fact it is a beta. I have noticed that Matchmaking is a horrid process of waiting up to 10 minutes between games in the same lobby due to lobby failures. Making a party is horrifically difficult as well as being nearly impossible. I also noticed that there is absolutely no level balances between teams.

In example: say 4 level 10's queue, and 4 level 40's queue. They are tossed together randomly normally resulting in a completely lopsided balance. I agree with people starting parties but there should still be some form of level balance.

Another issue I have is the Recruit bracket only available to level 10 or below. I feel the stats should not be saved due to not knowing the game due to a lack of a tutorial. Or even a A.I. battle you can practice and test out ideas with.

My issue with the class balancing is that a team with 4 alchs with healing mist has the potential to never go below 1/2 health. While a team of 4 sentinels can easily demolish any team comp. Again, I know this is a beta. These are merely observations and idea's I believe need attention.

Yes, Teamwork can beat any team of 4 rag tags in a match. Though, how many people are willing to play as a team? My experience is that only 2 out of the 4 on a team will talk to each other while the others play like it is a COD game.

Another quick thing I remembered is that the in-game voice chat seems to be broken. The in-game voice chat will come in distorted. Aswell as hitting the Hotkey for in-game voice chat will lag the player for a good 2-3 seconds. Making and accidental <G> click be the difference between life and death.
Easy solution with that is either taking it out of the game until fixed or simply not binding a key for it making it an optional feature.

I do enjoy the game greatly but with a beta it will have problems, but that does not mean un-fixable problems.
Overall I give the game a solid 4/5 as a beta. If it was released as is I would have to mark it a 2.5/5.

Sanguise23
19th May 2014, 21:09
ok the lobby crashing issue is new as in 5/15/2014, use steam chat its much better, the lv 40s against lv 10 is most likely due to being premade teams, party system just got "working" but still seams to have invite issues. there is not major balance issues there are counters to everything(as far as i know) 4 sents get destroyed against 4 scouts etc.

Blaming every problem on beta is exactly what BETA testing is for.
Not trying to be a jerk but give it some time make some friends (add me Sanguise on steam) to play with

RainaAudron
19th May 2014, 22:20
The lobby issues will be addressed asap as stated here (forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13285&page=2&p=101750#post101750) and here. (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344&p=101755#post101755)

Tutorial is in the works and should be available before open beta.

As to the bad mic audio, rather not use it or rely on 3rd party programs instead.

Autophagia2012
20th May 2014, 00:19
The lobby issues will be addressed asap as stated here (forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13285&page=2&p=101750#post101750) and here. (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344&p=101755#post101755)

Tutorial is in the works and should be available before open beta.

As to the bad mic audio, rather not use it or rely on 3rd party programs instead.

Ty for the answers. But it seems you agree with me on the mic. I use a 3rd party.

RainaAudron
20th May 2014, 14:03
You´re welcome. Yeah, I personally don´t use in-game audio at all, I just type.

lyravega
22nd May 2014, 00:54
If a premade is trying to find a match, they should face another premade. If someone is playing alone, they should meet other players that enter alone; unless they opt-in for a choice that extends the search parameters, and lets them meet premades as well.

All I'm trying to say is I don't understand why people joining alone has a chance to face a full premade team on the other side. It is just rage inducing, and something I'd like to avoid if possible.

edit; move this to Feedback & Suggestions please, apologies.

TachiRana
22nd May 2014, 05:36
I'm sure this has been said a thousand times before, but matchmaking in general needs a huge fix.

When I premake with my friends, it puts me in the opposite team every time.
Leaving a match with 1 second left before it starts needs a penalty. I've encountered four trolls in the two days I've been playing. Doing it consecutively for 10+ minutes. Trying to leave and find another lobby is pointless because it just puts you into the same lobby with the same pathetic neckbeard troll.

Not to mention all the random problems with matchmaking. Only one of my friends can form the premade party, since he can't join any of ours. The lobby will freak out and keep looking for members when we're full. Match will start and it will throw you back to the lobby and intermission over and over again.
And hey, how about some team balancing? I LOVED joining matchmaking at 10 and facing a near full team of level 40 players.
As far as balancing goes, here's a neat idea. Keep most of it the way it is, but at a level 30-40 queue. I know, I know, just because they're level 40 doesn't mean they're better. In most cases yes it does. Yeah, they have the same gear potential, but the skill gap is crazy. These people have tons and tons of hours under their belt compared to people in the 10s and 20s.
Guys, the gameplay is absolute amazing. Everything works so well. Just. Fix. Matchmaking.

You've got a loyal follower here, but good god, matchmaking man. Matchmaking.

SiD_Green
22nd May 2014, 07:52
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344

RainaAudron
22nd May 2014, 10:14
I've encountered four trolls in the two days I've been playing. Doing it consecutively for 10+ minutes. Trying to leave and find another lobby is pointless because it just puts you into the same lobby with the same pathetic neckbeard troll.

I´d be careful on who to slate as trolls or not - those people were probably only searching for another lobby (diff. map/players, more spaces for their friends, etc.), but they can´t control what lobby they will end up in after searching.

Gugulug5000
22nd May 2014, 21:21
People need to remember that not all teams are full of expert players looking to stomp lower leveled players. I frequently play on a team of 3 or 4 (pretty much whenever I play) connected through Skype and my win ratio at the moment is 52%-48%. The problem isn't that teams exist, it's that there are a few teams of really good people that are making the game miserable for others. I've been stomped while playing on a team, and I've stomped a few people as well (including some notable players). Some people have accused us of being experts looking for an easy win (one guy even made a thread where he ranted because of us) even though we are not very good at the game.

I don't think teams are the issue. Yes, teamwork definitely helps, but I don't think it's the real issue. I just think there are a lot of really good players out there who have played Nosgoth for a long time. They'd still crush people outside of teams, and if they wanted to be on a team with their friends they'd just quit and rejoin until it happened anyway. Nosgoth just needs a good ranking system (which would be extremely difficult to make with so many variables) and more players for this to be fixed.

My point is, getting rid of teams probably won't fix the problem. There are plenty of teams that aren't pros out there, and people probably don't even notice them. My solution has been to just look for another match whenever I see a group of level 40s waiting to kill me. The only real solution to this problem that would work for everyone (that I can think of at least) would be for Psyonix to give away more beta invites so there's a larger pool of players to play with.

Sanguise23
22nd May 2014, 21:36
People need to remember that not all teams are full of expert players looking to stomp lower leveled players. I frequently play on a team of 3 or 4 (pretty much whenever I play) connected through Skype and my win ratio at the moment is 52%-48%. The problem isn't that teams exist, it's that there are a few teams of really good people that are making the game miserable for others. I've been stomped while playing on a team, and I've stomped a few people as well (including some notable players). Some people have accused us of being experts looking for an easy win (one guy even made a thread where he ranted because of us) even though we are not very good at the game.

I don't think teams are the issue. Yes, teamwork definitely helps, but I don't think it's the real issue. I just think there are a lot of really good players out there who have played Nosgoth for a long time. They'd still crush people outside of teams, and if they wanted to be on a team with their friends they'd just quit and rejoin until it happened anyway. Nosgoth just needs a good ranking system (which would be extremely difficult to make with so many variables) and more players for this to be fixed.

My point is, getting rid of teams probably won't fix the problem. There are plenty of teams that aren't pros out there, and people probably don't even notice them. My solution has been to just look for another match whenever I see a group of level 40s waiting to kill me. The only real solution to this problem that would work for everyone (that I can think of at least) would be for Psyonix to give away more beta invites so there's a larger pool of players to play with.
i agree with all of this except that a team of all 40s will not run me off. While lv 40 players have x amount of in game experience it does not denote skill level i played a lv 4...thats right 4 that hit me with almost every shot was surprised but still

Lern2spelll
23rd May 2014, 03:11
Okay! Humans need a buff badly. As it stands its hard enough for 2 people to get one kill let alone the enemey team.
So I was thinking maybe the humans could have a walking back speed buff and no speed penalty for shooting while walking back. This would help the humans to get away from the vampires. Also maybe a deciver debuff becuase at the moment he seems to destroy the humans. I will add more for the deciver argument and find some more fixs that could help balance but right now I just wanted to alert the developers and players that it's unblanced right now.

PencileyePirate
23rd May 2014, 04:58
It's not as you describe ... 2 humans vs. 1 vampire, usually humans will win.

Although I wouldn't mind a small speed increase on backward walking.

Gugulug5000
23rd May 2014, 05:42
i agree with all of this except that a team of all 40s will not run me off. While lv 40 players have x amount of in game experience it does not denote skill level i played a lv 4...thats right 4 that hit me with almost every shot was surprised but still

Well I only leave when I see some level 40s that I recognize as ridiculously powerful (having played them before), and even then I often just tough out the match with my friends.

TheXeiom
23rd May 2014, 06:45
It's a hard call, if you give the humans any more utility in terms of speed then they'll become pretty much unbeatable.

I feel that humans require much more personal focus to play, you really have to be ready to jump when getting attacked and you really need to focus on where your teammates are to help them.

I wouldn't say humans are massively outclassed by vampires but I think they have a bigger learning curve. Jumping in the right direction at the right time is very important and keeping the vampires off bodies and teammates can't be stressed enough.

If humans receive any buff then I'd assume they would reduce the cooldown on roll slightly.

Deceiver is pretty squishy, my only issue with them is they keep getting the backstab bonus damage when hitting me from the front with their Q :/

Calverp
23rd May 2014, 06:52
Learn to use dodge against melee. Increases your survivability ten fold.

Sorrowgate
23rd May 2014, 07:11
I´d be careful on who to slate as trolls or not - those people were probably only searching for another lobby (diff. map/players, more spaces for their friends, etc.), but they can´t control what lobby they will end up in after searching.

This is what I was about to say. I've been thrown in the same lobby multiple times when trying to find space for friends. Makes it easy to tolerate and even laugh about it when it happens back.

Strike5150
23rd May 2014, 09:45
Humans are stronger then vampires at high lvl play, and at the very least on par. The skill cap is higher for humans and as such they take longer to master than vampires. Also as others have mentioned if your teammates are not supporting you it starts to feel like your playing 1v4.

Don't forget that bad decision making by humans results in you fighting 3v4 or 2v4 for the entire match. Whenever you see someone spawn and run across the map to help your allies that are dying or near dead you just created the space for vampires and the opportunity to own you. Its highly unlikely you will kill the vampires even when they are low health, if the vamps know what they are doing they'll kite you and kill you even if your full health. At best you will kill one vamp in this scenario( at least 90% of the time this will happen). Now because vamps move faster than you they will spawn and engage your team 4v3 while your running BACK across the map to support them.

Skurrvi
23rd May 2014, 21:25
I have never played a LoK game in my entire life, but I do very much enjoy competitive multiplayer games. Here's my view on Nosgoth's balance as of 5/23/14:

The disparity in teamwork that is required for Humans as opposed to Vampires is pretty drastic, but I think there are a couple of easy fixes to balance the sides out a bit because, right now, it seems that the outcome of a pub match often comes down to who had the better score as Humans, because Vampires is nearly a guaranteed win.

Reduce Vampire passive HP regen.
Vampires can engage on humans with little risk, as they can charge/pounce/fly in, get some damage on the Humans, then use their F ability to get out for free, then wait on a rooftop for half of their HP to come back while the humans have to risk using a healthkit if they want to heal back up (save for Healing Mist).

Reducing the free HP regen and forcing the Vampires to get kills to refresh their health pool would help to balance the individual strength Vamps have over Humans. The hit-and-run game is a little strong for them right now.


Reduce the "leap" on Vampire left-click attacks
Even with dodge-rolling, it's nearly impossible to juke a Vampire once they're within five yards. If your abilities are on cooldown, you're dead.

Vampires essentially move as quickly as a sprinting human while swiping for hundreds of damage and being able to make sharp directional adjustments very easily. Reducing the mobility Vampires have while on the offensive would allow for more counter-play and mind-games from the Human players.

I understand that asymmetrical multiplayer isn't supposed to be perfectly balanced, but right now the scales are leaning a bit too heavily in the Vampires' favor.

e: Feel free to let me know whether you agree or disagree with my proposed changes, or what changes you would make to remedy the same issues! Let's be civil, fellas.

cmstache
23rd May 2014, 21:36
I have never played a LoK game in my entire life, but I do very much enjoy competitive multiplayer games. Here's my view on Nosgoth's balance as of 5/23/14:

The disparity in teamwork that is required for Humans as opposed to Vampires is pretty drastic, but I think there are a couple of easy fixes to balance the sides out a bit because, right now, it seems that the outcome of a pub match often comes down to who had the better score as Humans, because Vampires is nearly a guaranteed win.

Reduce Vampire passive HP regen.
Vampires can engage on humans with little risk, as they can charge/pounce/fly in, get some damage on the Humans, then use their F ability to get out for free, then wait on a rooftop for half of their HP to come back while the humans have to risk using a healthkit if they want to heal back up (save for Healing Mist).

Reducing the free HP regen and forcing the Vampires to get kills to refresh their health pool would help to balance the individual strength Vamps have over Humans. The hit-and-run game is a little strong for them right now.


Reduce the "leap" on Vampire left-click attacks
Even with dodge-rolling, it's nearly impossible to juke a Vampire once they're within five yards. If your abilities are on cooldown, you're dead.

Vampires essentially move as quickly as a sprinting human while swiping for hundreds of damage and being able to make sharp directional adjustments very easily. Reducing the mobility Vampires have while on the offensive would allow for more counter-play and mind-games from the Human players.

I understand that asymmetrical multiplayer isn't supposed to be perfectly balanced, but right now the scales are leaning a bit too heavily in the Vampires' favor.

e: Feel free to let me know whether you agree or disagree with my proposed changes, or what changes you would make to remedy the same issues! Let's be civil, fellas.

Some of us just dominated some vampires as humans on the twitch feed 30-7..... That's my thought.

Skurrvi
23rd May 2014, 22:02
Well, balance assumes both teams are of equal skill. I think that it's safe to say that if you ever win by that kind of margin, the teams weren't very evenly matched. The same thing can be said in any competitive game; in League of Legends, a Diamond-league Heimerdinger can beat a Silver-league Zed. That, however, does not mean that Heimerdinger is balanced. If both players were of equal skill, the Zed would win. In Counter-Strike, a top player could likely take out a team of lower-level players with ease, using just a pistol while the other team has a full loadout.

If the skill margin is wide enough, you can win regardless of the limited tools at your disposal. Thinking about a game's balance MUST take equal skill into account.

e.g. "What is the relative strength between a Vampire with all abilities on cooldown, and a Human with all abilities on cooldown?" Pose these kinds of questions. Assume that a player will take the best possible course of action in a given scenario. So, the Vampire is clearly stronger without his abilities than a Human is. What potential counter-play does the Human have to prolong the chase, giving him time to get his cooldowns back up instead of being helpless? Improve the dodge-roll, or reduce the ease of chasing with left-clicks, as I stated in my OP.

Everyone has won by large margins on either team. That doesn't mean that both teams are balanced. This is beta and we should be providing feedback in a specific and useful way, I think, to help make this game as great as it has the potential to be.

Sorrowgate
23rd May 2014, 22:08
Balance Suggestions (no rage)

Humans do seem to take more practise to work properly, but honestly I feel like humans are the stronger side when you're playing with experienced players (especially those in a premade), they get real deadly with some teamwork.

Vampire's passive regen really isn't as strong as half health, it's about 200-300 health back slowly provided they stay out of combat for long enough. If they did get half of their health back I would agree with you.

Edit: Removed because I misread OP's third point... twice. Sorry :(

You can run fast enough to keep away from vampires but vampire melee swings have a minor slow attached to them so you'll need to juke or just bite the bullet and fight back (or both) if you're caught. Vampires did get their combat mobility nerfed a little while ago (charge attacks take longer to charge and don't jump as far, so they aren't circling around you and slashing your side quickly anymore) but be careful of them swiping into a roll to cover the distance or juke your fire.

Just stick at it for a little while, I think you'll find that humans are a lot better off than first impressions dictate. I used to think exactly the same way as you about human score being the deciding factor because vampires seemed like they'd always hit 30, but playing more changed that idea. Sometimes it even feels like it's the other way around now :P

Skurrvi
23rd May 2014, 22:21
Fair points, Sorrowgate, thanks for the info! Maybe it's just the ease-of-use of Vampires compared to Humans that makes it seem so imbalanced to newer players. Hopefully once I'm a higher level (14 now) I'll see it turn around. Do you typically play with friends or solo?

It's a shame that there isn't a popular objective game mode (I've never gotten a full game of Siege going, so I can't comment on it), but I feel like having something concrete to work towards would allow a pub team of Humans to work together more effectively. It seems strange that a game with so much focus on teamplay's only real mode is Deathmatch.

Sorrowgate
23rd May 2014, 22:51
Fair points, Sorrowgate, thanks for the info! Maybe it's just the ease-of-use of Vampires compared to Humans that makes it seem so imbalanced to newer players. Hopefully once I'm a higher level (14 now) I'll see it turn around. Do you typically play with friends or solo?

It's a shame that there isn't a popular objective game mode (I've never gotten a full game of Siege going, so I can't comment on it), but I feel like having something concrete to work towards would allow a pub team of Humans to work together more effectively. It seems strange that a game with so much focus on teamplay's only real mode is Deathmatch.

No problem :) I play with friends and alone, but try to get friends online when possible if only because it's more fun when you're all having a laugh together. There's 3 of us, it does help with co-ordination but there's one friend that I just click with and the teamwork gets deadly in both factions.

I'm level 29 but matches became more even earlier than that. I've noticed that when I'm grouped with lower level players they consider grouping together as standing 2 feet from each other rather than staying in each other's line of sight and being alert. Being spread out is fine provided you can see each other and throw a grenade to your friend when a reaver pounces on him.

I've never played Siege either, it's a shame. I've seen it though, there's a video of Siege gameplay on Nosgoth's official youtube page. Here it is :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anc-nMH1o-E

The human teams seem to improve across the 3 videos on the youtube page, funnily enough.

Dorzy1
23rd May 2014, 22:56
Some of us just dominated some vampires as humans on the twitch feed 30-7..... That's my thought.

Indeed we did :) as a lot of people have said already human take longer to master and iv found than when a person changes class sometimes it can really change the game sometimes for better sometimes for worse its all about teamplay and choosing the right class :)

Connatic
24th May 2014, 16:20
What is everyone's opinion on the balance of the Human v. Vampire matchup? Does one side have an advantage over the other? More importantly, with how the game is scored with 2 round match-ups...does it even matter? Is the goal to make each faction equally matched, or is it even a concern with the match being decided by how well you do playing both factions?

Khalith
24th May 2014, 17:09
At lower levels of play vampires tend to dominate but at the higher skill levels where players are more coordinated and experienced at the game, the humans are the more powerful faction by far. They have taken steps to balance it though, two of the human classes that were too powerful got a few nerfs and they are looking at nerfing the Reaver next. So yes, they do care about balance and I personally think balance does matter.

Sorrowgate
24th May 2014, 20:18
I agree with Khalith except about humans being more powerful by far. I think they can (and do) have the advantage, but I also just think that it's closer than that when the vamps realise they need to improve and step up their game.

Balancing is important for player interest. Both sides of the match should be fun to play and for people who have a favourite faction (like Khalith :P) it's especially important for their favourite to be on par when they get to play that round of the game.

anwmalos
25th May 2014, 18:58
The most fundamental, the most basic and the most important thing every online game should provide...BALANCED TEAMS

I've already joined a few games, can't say that all of them were unbalanced but i think i should warn you. Joining a team, -5 level than the opposite? this game will just "sink" if you don't be careful about this.

anwmalos
26th May 2014, 19:34
This is getting ridiculus. Half people of this game are on the losing team, which means 10 level minus to their opponents, 3v4 or 2v4 or even 1v4 etc... and the other half people are on the winning team which is BENEFITED by the facts i mentioned. In any case there CAN'T BE BALANCED TEAMS. I swear my last 10 games (or about 10) in a row were totally UN-BALANCED. I press "PLAY" button, it joins game which is at the end and me on the losing side, my teammates are about 9-11 level and my opponents like 30-40, starts games in lobby while we are still 3 vs 4... What's wrong with this game, if you aren't in the benefited team then you're surely are on the losing...HOW ABOUT SOMETHING IN MIDDLE?

Really consider fixing this. It's the most annoying thing to join a game and knowing since the beginning you just wasted 15 minutes.

Tureil
26th May 2014, 20:13
-sigh-

Alright. Dude. I'm thinking this is like the second or third post you made on this subject.

All of them have been moved, if thats the case. To one thread. In the proper area for posting this.

This is not the proper area for posting this. Neither is it appropriate to post the same thing multiple times.

it doesn't make the problem's awareness multiply in it's intensity, it's just dead weight slowing down the devs and mods who have to read this mess.

Do you even have access to the beta forums?

edit:

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=12847 Thats the thread you want.

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13503 This is also something you're gonna be interested in.

ALSO:

The fact the teams are unfair is because you're playing against people who are partied together -- Likely friends who want to actually have a coordinated effort against the opponents. These teams are for the moment absolutely exempt from Matchmaking -- They don't and won't normally get split up.

Thats why you'll see a bunch of 30s and 40s against a random mashup of whoever's left.

Guess what? It's not all bad news, though. It's gonna be fixed. Matchmaking is gonna be tweaked eventually. There're things in the pipeline that will come when they're ready -- Which you would know if you were in the right area and read the threads there for the proper responses.

But for now, you need to man up.
Remember the game is in Beta and everything is subject to change. Stiff upper lip, boyo. We've all been in your spot.

EDIT TWO:

oh. Looks like the mods moved it to the right area. Hope the dude can see this **** still.

Seariously
27th May 2014, 20:55
I have a suggestion for the game to have competitive ranks. Have a system like league of legends or Counter-strike Global offensive where you rank up and have ELO system and emblems depending what rank you are.

This will be for Solo Queue (when you play by yourself) or for Premade queue (group of 4).

Example:

Rank 1 - Copper
Rank 2 - Silver
Rank 3 - Gold
Rank 4 - Platinum
Rank 5 - Obsidian

etc.

Diexna
28th May 2014, 03:16
Already in the works.

Bearshoes5
29th May 2014, 01:46
I was wondering if the devs plan to implement a form of MMR system?

Possibly a level balanced lobby system or a randomize teams vote?

Tureil
29th May 2014, 02:28
There is a level balanced lobby system. They just have it so that if people join a team together, they're exempt from the balancing so friends can play with eachother. Thats why you see 4 level 40s against a 20, a 1, a 5 and a 12.

They're re-making the lobby system I believe, so we'll see what goes on after that.

Khalith
29th May 2014, 03:48
Another thing, if the same people stay in the lobby the teams won't be changed. If you leave and re-enter you can force it to randomize the teams again, I've been doing it a lot the last few days to force the teams to change up.

cmstache
29th May 2014, 11:33
Indeed. I would imagine that the "premade" or "team-ranks" will be linked to the war band feature.

anwmalos
29th May 2014, 12:41
Come on! Join the FEAST! It's FREE WINS FOR 40 LEVELS!!! YEAH!

When I get 40 level I gues I'll be playing with...um...60?

Am only 17 level and I'm playing with 40 and 30 levels and my team full of 10 or 20. Never playing against 10 or 20 less than my level.

Balance the **** teams... Just unplayable.

SiD_Green
29th May 2014, 12:51
Definitely a worthwhile thread. You have NOT wasted your time.

Dorzy1
29th May 2014, 13:19
I'm level 40 and I do feel a bit unfair sometimes on the other team if there made up of level 10s and 20s as they don't have as much experience with the classes although I have meet so low level player who play on par with 40s but I do feel like there should be another mode after recruits for players 10-25 as it would help players not have such a huge skill gap

Duelshock
1st Jun 2014, 23:40
matchmaking definitely needs a lot of work. So far today I have only stayed for 1 full game because every other game is just completely one sided where my team is all noobs and the other team is going HAM on them. I mean losing is one thing, but having games that end up with scores of 30-5 this frequently shouldn't be happening that often.

Vidokas
3rd Jun 2014, 14:34
dont know did usa have same problem. but eu have this problem for sure.
almost always someone not log in into battle and i need to play with 3v4 or 4v3.
sometimes even 2v4 / 4v2.
rarely matchmaker adds some ppl to existing team, but thats rare thing.

i dont know this is because of lack of players or just poorly scriptet matchmaker.
anyway if its because of players, then you should make some giveaways :)

Sirfy1
3rd Jun 2014, 21:03
I'm not sure if this is part of the lobby/server/matchmaking you are working on, but I thought I'd put this bug in your ear anyway.

WAY too many times has matches been ruined by teams being severely unbalanced with brand new players/low levels joining...making one side a lvl 20, 1, 1, 3 vs lvls 20-40.

Solution: FORCE levels 1-9 to play in the New Recruits servers. When I first started, I thought that was the case, since there was a secon for low levels, then one for everyone else. Disable the other lobby option till they reach 10. It's not like they lose anything from playing in the New Recruits...I found it very beneficial. More time to learn the classes and how the game works other than getting your face smashed in while people fuss at you for being terrible and new.
Course, this option can have some workarounds like if you're invited to a party with higher levels maybe...

Just my thought. It's getting really irritating with how unbalanced teams get so easily just beause of new players who don't know what they're doing and NOT taking advantage of the New Recruits lobbies.

Sanguise23
3rd Jun 2014, 22:00
problem with this is the lobbies fill slowly and playing normal TDM can make it faster

Razaiim
3rd Jun 2014, 22:42
Indeed. New recruits just doesn't have enough activity in it to justify the wait times. Secondly, I don't think anyone has a right to complain about mismatched teams after the atrocity in Alpha we had to suffer through.
Let me elaborate:
The old level cap of 20 was reduced to 18. Players at 20 remained at 20 though. New recruits is severely underpopulated so everyone plays standard deathmatch. The game decided active rank 19-20 were god mode and the best match up was a 20 and the three lowest levels against 4 level 18s. Every game. For nearly 2 months. The unbalanced teams now don't come close to that.

GenFeelGood
3rd Jun 2014, 23:11
Indeed. New recruits just doesn't have enough activity in it to justify the wait times. Secondly, I don't think anyone has a right to complain about mismatched teams after the atrocity in Alpha we had to suffer through.
Let me elaborate:
The old level cap of 20 was reduced to 18. Players at 20 remained at 20 though. New recruits is severely underpopulated so everyone plays standard deathmatch. The game decided active rank 19-20 were god mode and the best match up was a 20 and the three lowest levels against 4 level 18s. Every game. For nearly 2 months. The unbalanced teams now don't come close to that.

Tell me about it, I can still remember back when matchmaker would pit 1 vet and 3 new guys against 3-4 vets. I was usually the odd man out; but I'm sure most of us who remember those days thought they were as well. My most memorable match comes from back in those days in an instance where me, Zombie Jesus, Dakim, and Omegamesh went against an all green team. We beat them so bad in the human round that, when our vampire round came up, we took turns going at them solo; and still won getting 3 kills each before they put us down.

Razaiim
4th Jun 2014, 00:32
The number of times I had to duke it out against Jest and his team while mine was trying to figure out how to use pounce or climb walls

Sirfy1
4th Jun 2014, 04:51
Ahh, I wasn't around for alpha :P Sounds like I didn't want to be hahaha

The new recruits lobby is underpopulated because they are joining normal tdm instead while there's an abundance of them playing to be able to fill lobbies. It would fill up kinda quick if they were forced to play there first. They filled up fairly quick for me when I played in the new recruits. Very little wait time. Leveled to 10 in a few short days and probably learned more than I would have in normal tdm just getting smashed repeatedly. [I've been playing 2 weeks now]

Though there's ALWAYS room for improvement for how its balanced, and I'm sure something is already in the works with the reworking of lobbies. This was just a small idea to maybe improve on that. Though I can see issues from my idea, myself...

Strike5150
4th Jun 2014, 09:50
There is really no point in discussing it much further until we see the new matchmaker anyway. Its being worked on. I'm sure they would be happy to see ideas for good matchmaking and how to rank players in this game but ultimately the current matchmaking is being scrapped anyway.

Razaiim
4th Jun 2014, 22:16
There is really no point in discussing it much further until we see the new matchmaker anyway. Its being worked on. I'm sure they would be happy to see ideas for good matchmaking and how to rank players in this game but ultimately the current matchmaking is being scrapped anyway.

I'm excited to hear this, and to know that it's on its way. A small part of me is still scared that an implementation issue will arise with a period of time like the alpha nightmare.

Slickchicken
11th Jun 2014, 22:21
The team system is really unfair. It'll put a team of lv 10-15 players against lv 30+ players even though those players are clearly going to wipe out your team. I hope they introduce a system that put players together that are around the same level or skill. It'll make the game a lot more enjoyable and may even reduce the amount of players that leave the match.

Sirfy1
11th Jun 2014, 23:14
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344

Metalmeyer
12th Jun 2014, 06:11
Come on, players level does not represent his skill

Sanguise23
12th Jun 2014, 12:34
This

Slickchicken
12th Jun 2014, 20:28
Well it's great to know they're working on it, especially private matches. :) Thanks for the link.

Doomsiren
12th Jun 2014, 20:52
Come on, players level does not represent his skill

Indeed it doesn't. But most of the time it will give a good indication. I have only seen one level 40 player who is just terrible at the game.

Blastin_Foolz
13th Jun 2014, 19:29
They were probably partied up and pub stomping.

The matchmaking isn't optimal, but it does at least try to make it fair most of the time.

Soiuxsie
13th Jun 2014, 21:03
The player lvl isn't showing there actual skill and there are times that everyone can get tired and play a bit worse so having a lvl 40 in your team doesn't grant you a instant win.
Also keep in mind that on a average day there is about 350 people playing (steam charts) at the moment so it's hard for the matchmaking system to balance things up specially with a lvl spread 1-40

LotusBlades
14th Jun 2014, 12:11
Also keep in mind that on a average day there is about 350 people playing (steam charts) at the moment so it's hard for the matchmaking system to balance things up specially with a lvl spread 1-40
Wrong! When there is 40,40,30,20 and 10,14,17,19 lvl players divided like that (those high lvls arent a premade team) its not about low players ammount - its system is dumb and cant do simple 2+2=4.

Also system should not add lvl 19 players to those 10-lvl+ lobby, its just a free win for one of the teams.

And i just hate to connect to already started games - since if you do it, then someone left it before and in 99% cases they left cus of rage / their team is useless... so you join that useless guys and eather you 100% lose or just quit. But even more stupid situation is when i join into like 28-5 score teams to those "5" and getting free lose, cus that was end of second battle - this happens with epicly big chance.

Player lvl shows how much time you spent on this game, lvl 10 player is like 9 hours of gameplay, while i have 115 hours (lvl 32). Now compare an experience of 10 hours and 110 hours, its exactly x11 times more i have against those newbies. Lvl 40 guy have far more then i do, so yes -lvl represents skill, cus skill grows with time no matter what.

KingGurra
19th Jun 2014, 10:01
Do nosgoth have any balancing system at all? When a 4 man preamade gets to meet 4 solo players it seems not.

Or are there simply to little player in the alpha atm? If not this is a huge gamebreaker and will have ppl quitting fast :)

Sanguise23
19th Jun 2014, 21:48
its due to small playerbase, which is quickly growing

RemovedQuasar
21st Jun 2014, 00:29
Team Balance Problem:



I wanna ask a question: what kind of algorythm do you use for make teams?

Tell me if this is balanced.
Human team media lvl : 69
Vampire team media lvl: 44

I don't think that we need a genius to understand that the two low levels have to be splitted. Try to fix please, i alreasy saw teams composed by low level players vs super pro teams!

Premade problem:

This is the big problem, i know that during Alpha the premade team were splitted but now you removed this (well it's logic, it's a team game). The choise mybe can be good but the game is still on beta and doesen't have so much players. So i think that premade have to be splitted cause i see mega ultra pro teams versus normal people, im tired to be the MEAT or the PUPPET TRAIN of damned clan ultra pro (no names, but those players are so good, someone is iMMMMMmmmortal).

// Sorry Raina i didn't notice that there was already a thread about those problems.

TastyRabbitStew
23rd Jun 2014, 20:33
Games are either too easy or too hard. Its very rare to get close matches.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvV5BFcoHes







Broken

Kriegson
24th Jun 2014, 21:28
...I can't wait till the party system gets fixed and we get some proper Match making -_-

Getting wiped, leads to people quitting, which leads to getting wiped, which leads to..well yeah you get it. And there was some fairly sketchy stuff going on with scouts holding a charged bow for about 30 seconds aiming at me behind cover while I had approached opposite of where they held up, and them instantly snapping 30 degrees to the right to shoot a reaver diving on him mid-flight (in the face).

Hrm, couldn't select misc for my prefix

Pyzlnar
24th Jun 2014, 23:08
Seriously this matchmaking is so awfull after lvl 10 your getting put up with lvl 30's and 20's and im only 11 so i have no fun with all the people that are way to good so you need to fix this it is so annoying not being able to have fun when there is a completely higher lvl character then you

Sanguise23
25th Jun 2014, 12:45
levels arent as big a deal as you think, sure it tells experience but some lv 40s still play badly. matchmaking is being worked on, but in the meantime try playing with friends or any team that might help

EvilRosaParks
25th Jun 2014, 18:05
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but do you plan on eventually rigging the matchmaking system to try to match people who aren't in a pre-made party together?

MickeyHokkaido
25th Jun 2014, 21:30
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but do you plan on eventually rigging the matchmaking system to try to match people who aren't in a pre-made party together?

Seconded. I haven't been able to get a game with fair teams since the Steam Sale. It basically goes: Join game - already in progress, I'm one of two players in a match against a pre-made.. every time. That, or I join and the countdown starts, but I look at my team and it's all 10's and 11's vs. an enemy team of two 40's probably queuing together and some 15's.

I just want to know if the game was not meant to be played queuing solo... I'll just find something else if that's the case.

FireWorks_
25th Jun 2014, 21:42
Seconded. I haven't been able to get a game with fair teams since the Steam Sale. It basically goes: Join game - already in progress, I'm one of two players in a match against a pre-made.. every time. That, or I join and the countdown starts, but I look at my team and it's all 10's and 11's vs. an enemy team of two 40's probably queuing together and some 15's.

I just want to know if the game was not meant to be played queuing solo... I'll just find something else if that's the case.

Sadly most times of the day its the other way around too. As solo 40 you get matched to 7 10ish people and its not really fun to play either. And due to the awesome bugs I almost gave up on joining MM with teams.

Crizume
30th Jun 2014, 21:27
Second game and I can already tell youre matchmaking algorithm is ****. Nothing ruins a good game more than bad matchmaking. No way should a match pit four level ones vs 4 players all level 5 and above. As you can so smartly guess it was a massacre and not enjoyable at all for one of the teams.

If a new player gets into 3 or 4 matches like that out of his first five hes just going to quit the game because it is no fun.

S2Slayer
30th Jun 2014, 23:14
From what I can tell at level 24 there really isn't a match making system. The biggest problem that needs to be addressed is group size matching. Levels should play less of a roll in matching then group size should. Compared to a group of 4 players on vent vs 4 random players who have no voice chat and are just guessing what there other teammates are doing the 4 players on voice chat are going to stomp hard every time.

Sanguise23
1st Jul 2014, 12:35
they are redoing the matchmaking

FireWorks_
1st Jul 2014, 13:38
If only massacre of noobs would work, but in its current state you cant even play with your friends in most cases. From an 2,5h evening we spend over 30mins to get the first lobby going with all our players in it.

Sanguise23
1st Jul 2014, 18:08
your doing something wrong i play with friends most of the time, here is what you do, before joining lobby (before clicking search) invite friends to party (you may all have to restart to get it to work not a big deal) then click search. then when lobby fills make sure your party is all on the same team, if not have who ever got moved to other team leave lobby (before countdown is finished) and rejoin host via friends list. Sometimes the whole team except the host has to do this. This works evertime i play as a team

FireWorks_
1st Jul 2014, 18:41
your doing something wrong i play with friends most of the time, here is what you do, before joining lobby (before clicking search) invite friends to party (you may all have to restart to get it to work not a big deal) then click search. then when lobby fills make sure your party is all on the same team, if not have who ever got moved to other team leave lobby (before countdown is finished) and rejoin host via friends list. Sometimes the whole team except the host has to do this. This works evertime i play as a team

and it doesnt work when the servers are loaded a bit more. The last 3 evenings it did not work. You can read it up here: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8272&page=13&p=108390#post108390

Gonna see how it works now

EDIT:
First try with one friend: We got splitted in the final match.
Second try: No servers available msg.
In the following (after all the restart every time etc.), my friend got a black screen completely locking up the game. That was new to us!)
Currently we are stuck on the authentification/joining loop

Harkonis
2nd Jul 2014, 10:13
getting tired of the imbalanced player numbers. Watching a stream where he's 4v2, I try to join a game and end up 4v1, leave join again and get in a different 4v2. Also had a 5v3. The game can be hard enough when it's 4v4, but constantly being down multiple people is pretty lame.

xScorch
19th Jul 2014, 20:46
Hello Community,

I really like Nosgoth and I think for a closed beta, it's already pretty good. I even bought the Immortal Pack to support the developers.

But one thing annoys me and my friends really hard. The matchmaking in this game is super buggy and got several problems, that needs to be fixed, before you add more items or maps or whatever.
Here are some common bugs we run in everyday:

Case 1: My friend invites me into his party and I accept. Nosgoth throws me into a random game, that already started, but without the friend, who invited me.
Case 2: I am in a party with some friends and searching a lobby and suddenly only one or two of us find one, but the third one or the second and third one doesn't find one. (I am talking about a three ppl party)
Case 3: We all get into a lobby but I and another friend can't see us in the lobby, but are somehow in the lobby. We just can't see our names.
Case 4: We join into a completely empty lobby and other players join, but we aren't in the same team.
Case 5: We get into a lobby and when the game counts down to start, it just won't start and we need to leave and search for another lobby. But I saw, that this bug got already reported here.
Case 6: And that's the biggest bug ever, so I made a screenshot. I am with a random guy in a lobby vs 5 enemys. So 2 vs 5. How is it even possible, that 5 people get into one team?


Me and my friends always search for games in Europe.

Today it was so annoying, because we needed like 30 minutes to find a working lobby, that I decided to make this thread.
I hope that a developer or someone with a influence in the game reads this and will reply.

Greetings
Scorch

Nevshi22
23rd Jul 2014, 02:41
A few friends and I partied up and when we were put on the same team it told us that it was an unbalanced party and the match couldn't start. I was then put on the opposite side of my party. I'm level 19 and everybody else was in their 30s. A level 40 then joined, and that person was put with my party and I was with a level 1, a level 9, and a level 13. My side got slaughtered in two matches.

What is the deal with this?

LotusBlades
23rd Jul 2014, 10:56
Do you actually understand what "ClosedBeta" meaning is? It means, you, me and others (beta testers) suppose to TEST game for bugs, exploits, errors, glitches and other critical problems -> reveal them for developers and wait for 'OpenBeta'. ClosedBeta test isnt meant to be fully finished game for you to get fun, you see.

There cant be any balance in closed beta, moreover - you can simply dodge from lobby if you dont like team balance, there is 10 seconds to do that, why whould you simply wait for meteor falling on your head slowly for 10 seconds, instead of dodging it and saving lifetime?

I think such players as you, should lose their beta test acces after being exposed like that.

Nevshi22
23rd Jul 2014, 11:09
Your ability to fail at reading what was written, jumping to conclusions, and being inconsiderate is second to none. Bravo!

Bazielim
23rd Jul 2014, 11:37
Keep it constructive guys.

Matchmaking has been an acknowledged issue that has been raised many times before and it's a difficult one to solve without breaking up partied groups (which I suspect may be the reason for the unbalanced match here)

But help is at hand - as per this sticky thread (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344), matchmaking is being completely overhauled to make fairer and more balanced games and match-up based people on their abilities - it just takes a little time to work in and implement.

Nevshi22
23rd Jul 2014, 12:06
I'm just wondering why it pulled a level 19 to be replaced by a lever 40 more than anything.

RainaAudron
23rd Jul 2014, 12:09
Hm, somebody might have been in a party.

Nevshi22
23rd Jul 2014, 12:39
Yes, I was with three other people. I guess my question is the Unbalanced Team message that showed up and then replaced the level 19 in the party with a level 40 that was not in the party. I wondered if the game was upset that it wasn't an unbalanced team!

ParadoxicalOmen
26th Jul 2014, 18:21
Nosgoth is a really good game.
So far, what is killing it for me is the unbalanced matches and the inflexibility of the servers.

I'm not sure how the balancing system works, but i would suggest going through all the players and list them in order of "best player" (level + win percentage...something like this), Then proceed to put best in team1, second best on team2, 3rd on team1 and so on...
Also, at the end, make a check to see if level of players are balanced (cause sometimes the highest level of my team is LOWER than the lowest level in the other team...resulting in extremely unbalanced games).

I was also hoping the we could see the servers we can join, and not let it all up to the game to decide.
Sometimes i don't wanna join a specific game, but i always end up in same place each time i search for a game.
Something simple like making all servers visible/"browse-able", with information of number of players and ping.

Shikei001
26th Jul 2014, 19:25
Corey already explaint most of that what u suggested ;)
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344 <- Matchmaking and Party System

Matchmaking explained:

When matchmaking is revamped, it will be based on a matchmaking rating (MMR) system similar to how Riot, Blizzard, etc. do skill matching. This will replace all usage of player level/rank (since it's an inaccurate approximation of player skill) for matchmaking.

Modern algorithms like TrueSkill are often used in place of older systems like ELO to estimate a player's skill value based on matches played and performance. Typically performance is not taken into account (or not weighted heavily) in these systems - instead they look at the skill values of the players in the match and on each team, and adjust afterwards based on the result.

There is a chance you can be a high skilled player that gets matched with a weak team and lose a match, but MMR systems take that into account, and over time / matches played your skill value can be pinpointed more accurately for better matching and team balancing.

Sometime later we will introduce a League Ranking system that allows players to progress through a standardized tiering system based on their background MMR value.

Sasha_Vykos
30th Jul 2014, 19:34
I didn't see a thread about this.. at least a recent thread.
I know that matchmaking will be completely redisgned but I would like to write my point of view about this aspect:
many and many times I search for a match and the matchmaking choose for me a started match. 99% of the time the match is unplayable because the other team have an incredible advantage (like 20-5 or so for example). And this occur at least 4-5 times per hour (and many times the matchmaking choose the same match 2 times because I quitted the first time seeing the score).

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't really want to start a completely unfair match. I want to start at the same level..what's the point of start a match that you have already lost? I don't see it. Do someone feel the same?

Do the devolpers have some plan about it? Its also really annoying because is too frequent in my opinion. I would like to discuss it.. maybe you can choose that a player can enter a match only if the team don't have more than, let's say 5 point of difference- I don't think this is viable but for sure someone will have better ideas.

MasterZtark
30th Jul 2014, 19:37
I agree Join In Progress is a very annoying and an unwanted "feature" to the game. There are -rare- times I don't have much time to play, on a quick break or something, and specifically look for these games already started, but 99% of the time most people avoid them at all costs.

I would love an OPTION to not Join In Progress.

FireWorks_
30th Jul 2014, 20:54
and while we re at it: bring a surrender vote

Ian517
2nd Aug 2014, 08:53
Hello, I am Ian and my english are a bit bad, but since forums are for feedback i came here to write what displeases me most.

Matchmaking is unbalanced and i understand why, since the community is small. Also i observed that when a team in a lobby is perfectly balanced, and then someone leaves, to fill the gap the game transports one player to the other side. But it doesnt rebalance the teams afterwards. For example a lvl 15 leaves the room. To fill the gap a lvl 30 is transported from the other team, and now there are 2 of them in the same team against some lvl 15s.

Also i expirience a lot of games that a match begins and unexpectedly my whole team/or enemy team leaves. Making the game unfair and unpleasent. 1v4 is not fun on a team game.There must be a way to counter this. Like Goodwill in smite or a penalty like 15 minutes ban. I understand you want to have the best inviroments for players, but protecting leavers in this game means destroying it completely.

One last thing. I would love a smart and fast way to communicate. I have played many co-op games from fps to mobas. It is required a way to communicate in this game (it will also improve the team spirit). In my opinion the most succesfull way is the that smite uses. You can in 0,5 sec to send a clear message to your team by pressing 3 buttons. Like VSA3 for "i ll attack right lane" or VVVG for "group up" or VER for "you rock". A fast paste game like Nosgoth requires something like it. The good part is that no toxic players were spotted on my 3 days of gameplay.

Thanks for providing the game and taking care of its community. Thanks in advance Ian.