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View Full Version : Conspiracy Theorists out there?



pewbeng
9th Sep 2008, 19:07
Hey,

I'm just curious if there are any conspiracy enthusiasts around, and if: what your area of expertise is. Aliens, Area 51, 9/11-inside-job, chemtrails, Elvis lives and plays poker with Tupac and Hitler on a regular basis, Illuminati, etc, etc.


Generally i consider myself a sceptic, but I like to be... aware.



So...switch into your Mulder costumes and discuss! :)

Clucky
9th Sep 2008, 19:17
I keep an open mind. I mean I love shows like "the X-files" as much, if not more, than the next person, but I am truly a sceptic. I believe it all to be lively minds running wild, but I would believe if any hard evidence was given to support one. I'm not a debunker by nature. :)

ikenstein
9th Sep 2008, 21:37
i'm a conspiracy 'theorist', in that i know for a fact that the world is run by a shadowy elite. this goes way beyond a couple of dudes rolling up the leg of their pants at the local masonic lodge

for example, there is a group of polliticians and industrialists called the bilderberg group that meet secretly to dictate world events. denis healy (ex uk chancellor), lord owen and martin taylor, chairman of WHSmith admit that the bilderberg group meets secretly to persue its own secret agenda at 36.50 on this video -

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3725493129921826227

the way this kind of evil organisation is structured is that within the bilderberg group are smaller groups, secret from the rest of the bilderbergers. they manipulate the bilderberg group. and there are secret groups with in this group and so on. like a pyramid structure with the bilderg group, the freemasons, the council on foreign relations etc at the bottom and one guy at the top running the show, often represented by the eye in the pyramid.

they run the world financial system. the federal reserve, for example, is privatley owned and run for profit. the finance the main pollitical parties. the control industry. see

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

the aim is a one world dictatorship. the nafta the eu, tha african union, the un are all just stepping stones towards this.

believe me this is not a theory.

El_Bel
9th Sep 2008, 22:35
Oh brother, the federal reserve isn't making any money. All the money they are making is going to the national treasury. Sure frictional reserve system is pretty bad for economies and environment and its good just for the private banks but its not a big conspiracy.

PS: Bankers are Satan's spawn... :rasp:

René
9th Sep 2008, 22:59
I believe the fluoride in our tap water is a form of mind control...

FrankCSIS
9th Sep 2008, 23:10
I've got a theory of my own elaborated mainly for entertainment value and as a cure for boredom.

I suspect the good old British Empire to be alive and doing rather well for itself while the rest of the European decadent empires are extinct.

Since the American independence there were always two clans in the US, that I'll simplify as calling Cowboys (the actual Americans) and the Europeans With Guns (the Brits who stuck around and "civilized" the republic). Somewhere after the independence but surely before the civil war the Brits plotted to regain control of their colony, not by force, but through economical development and civilization widespread. While some American values survived the country was slowly but surely shaped into an empire upholding the values and views of Britanica's yesteryear. The only political change by a president ever allowed in domestic affairs was the New Deal, a movement that made it's way to the US and Canada from across the Pond. Every other change made by presidents since has only ever affected the foreign policies, although they all had in common to become less and less isolationist and more and more present in other countries.

Canada was always acquired to the British cause. Not only did we never claim our independence to this day, our heavy involvement in UN Blue Helmet peacekeeping operations, reminiscent of the Red Jackets, and our stance on world affairs is a testimony of our allegiance. We also share the same views and objectives on the whole Jerusalem debacle.

The entire way Israel and Palestine was handled is a funny thing in itself. While I don't want to be pictured as hating one group or the other (I couldn't care less about either, to be honest), to me the creation of the state of Israel by the UN was a clever modern way of building a fortress around Jerusalem. It's the goddamn crusade all over again, or should I say, that never ended. Every single leader, of every partisan formation, who has ever been elected to run either the UK, the US, Canada and France has always tried to bring peace in the region while maintaining the status quo on how the land is divided. Anyone ever questioning the state of Israel is of course automatically a terrorist or a hate monger (admitably, some of them are/were).

The European Union is a clever way fro Britain to obtain control of the whole territory. Anyone who's ever tried to gain control by force of the land eventually failed, but clever democracy is accomplishing just that. Anglo-Saxon economists like to spread the word that the EU is a perfect balance of power between the different states, but let's be honest the only strong state within the EU is the UK, and they have the guts to keep their Pound and play hard to get. In the meantime every country around is begging to join in, borders were abolished and the Constitution project is progressing rather well.

The African Union is just the same colonization all over again, this time led by the UN (read the EU + North America) under a single flag instead of various divided empires.

The North American Union is just around the corner, and I'm not really surprised that even Republican candidates are suddenly showing their soft side for Mexican illegal aliens, something you'd normally not expect from the party rhetoric. With Mexico secured South America would take about 100 years to conquer, mainly by spreading their seed around the country. We wouldn't even need military interventions, just some colonial pockets and laxist borders.

Surely you've played Risk a few times in your life. When someone holds North and South America, Europe and Africa, and when Australia remains neutral, if not an ally, do you think this player can be stopped?

Of course, instead of a bunch of British old men running the world, all of this could also be explained by saying it's only the natural and logical evolution of Democracy at work. Capitalism and the Medias being agent of Democracy (vote with your buck and vote with the ratings), the system itself is only expanding and making choices according to its own nature. After all, the logical outcome of Democracy is a planet run by a single state, the only efficient and civilized way to do it. Why else would there be such a strong stance against Russia in the current conflict? Because Russia attacked a Democratic state, every leader out there said it at one point or another. Had Georgia been a dictatorship no one would've cared. Democracy runs the show now, and we're all falling for it.

Well, you asked for it, so here it is!

JerichoMccoy
9th Sep 2008, 23:30
Hey,

I'm just curious if there are any conspiracy enthusiasts around, and if: what your area of expertise is. Aliens, Area 51, 9/11-inside-job, chemtrails, Elvis lives and plays poker with Tupac and Hitler on a regular basis, Illuminati, etc, etc.


Generally i consider myself a sceptic, but I like to be... aware.



So...switch into your Mulder costumes and discuss! :)

Okay, this is weird...

When I first looked at this thread, it said that you last edited this message at 11:11am...

And then when I went back to check up on it... it said 03:11pm...

...I'm scared...:eek:

K^2
10th Sep 2008, 00:55
Well, I'm positive that official version of 9/11 is not true. By how much, is another question. There are too many inconsistencies, though. But I'm not going to try and prove that government did it, because any theory put forward on that would have even more inconsistencies.

So, I think government is hiding something, but I don't know whether reason is malevolent. I think there is reason enough to consider both. I don't know how much of a "Conspiracy Theory" that is.

I also like to talk about how the Moon Landing could have been faked. I really don't think it was, but I do think it was possible to do on the budget they had.

I guess I'm more of a Conspiracy Hypothesists...

ikenstein
10th Sep 2008, 01:24
I believe the fluoride in our tap water is a form of mind control...

ya, just like the army used to put bromide in soldiers tea to lessen their sex drive.

http://www.ivanfraser.com/articles/health/fluoride.html

gamer0004
10th Sep 2008, 10:35
I've got a theory of my own elaborated mainly for entertainment value and as a cure for boredom.

I suspect the good old British Empire to be alive and doing rather well for itself while the rest of the European decadent empires are extinct.
The African Union is just the same colonization all over again, this time led by the UN (read the EU + North America) under a single flag instead of various divided empires.

Well, you asked for it, so here it is!

The DX5 script? :P

El_Bel
10th Sep 2008, 10:48
I am pretty sure that electronic old man run the world.. :rasp:

J.CDenton
10th Sep 2008, 11:18
I want to believe!!!

I don't really know about conspiracies theories but I sure do believe that our presidents are not the puppetmasters in our countries. In France for example, lobbying is really stron,g. The president can't act as a single man and leader. He needs some supports without which he's nothing. Supports include huge industries, celebrities (*hysterical laugh*) and several peoples from, what we call the "Vieille Garde" (Old Guard) which describes ultra conservative peoples who are diehards fans of their ideas and are the main influences in the political sphere. Most of them, in the right wing, are from Monarchists and traditionnalists movements and ensure that France stays in the good path. Which means less democraty, a bit more autoritarism, controlling the people mind and information, stupid and useless news (what we call the désinformation), cops everywhere, fear of your own neighboor. A dictatorship.

French are asleep. Stunned by the new century, France is questionning itself about its own place and even its own identity. For now, I believe that some guys are making France like this. I hope we will wake up one day.

JerichoMccoy
10th Sep 2008, 15:04
French are asleep. Stunned by the new century, France is questionning itself about its own place and even its own identity. For now, I believe that some guys are making France like this. I hope we will wake up one day.

As long as people like you are able to see the 'signs', then the future is still undecided and in nobodies favor but our own :cool:.

ikenstein
10th Sep 2008, 16:22
I want to believe!!!
I don't really know about conspiracies theories but I sure do believe that our presidents are not the puppetmasters in our countries. In France for



true. check out what jfk had to say in his last speech.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&feature=related

FrankCSIS
10th Sep 2008, 16:53
The DX5 script? :P

Ssshhhhh, I'm still in negociations :cool:

Nathan2000
11th Sep 2008, 11:19
Yesterday, I wasn't a believer. I thought that our world is simple and predictable, ruled by physics laws, established at the beginning of time. But then came the day when I saw something that cannot be explained with laws of nature as we know them. Observe the ultimate proof for a government conspiracy:

Sprinkler Rainbow Conspiracy (http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8)

It can't be natural.

DXeXodus
11th Sep 2008, 11:36
Haha! I saw that earlier on another forum. :lol:

Gizmostuff
11th Sep 2008, 21:54
ya, just like the army used to put bromide in soldiers tea to lessen their sex drive.

http://www.ivanfraser.com/articles/health/fluoride.html

It's powerade now :D

binlargin
11th Sep 2008, 22:14
I love good conspiracy theories because they're excellent lies that make everyone believe them. They scream "Buy my book, talk about my ideas, give me the attention I deserve!" but in a underhanded way that shows true craftsmanship.
One day I'm going to start a really good one, you'll all be suckered in and I will laugh and laugh and laugh...

FrankCSIS
12th Sep 2008, 17:14
You have to be careful not to actually believe in it though. That's what all those stories about selling your soul to the devil warn you about. When you tackle the conspiracy world it's difficult not to fall for it yourself and become some obsessed lunatic ;)

Deus_Ex_Machina
13th Sep 2008, 03:31
I believe in the conspiracy theories that are credible. For example :

- I believe the US Government either intentionally or by their incompetence allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place. (I base this on the MANY inconsistencies in the 9/11 Commission Report as well as government response)

- I believe big business plays an active role in decision-making in Washington, either directly or through other means (such as lobbying, extortion, etc.).

- I believe the Central Intelligence Agency is one of the worst institutions ever created and is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in recorded history and is second only the the Catholic Church in this regard. (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act)

- I believe the National Security Agency is actively monitoring a vast majority (possible all) forms of electronic communication for the purposes of "national security" in the "war or terror". (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act and several interviews I myself have conducted)

There are MANY conspiracy theories out there that I do not believe in. For example :

- I DO NOT believe that modern technology is the result of reverse engineering from technology recovered in the Roswell crash. (I don't even believe the Roswell Incident was Alien related. I believe it was an experimental aircraft, either US or Russian, that malfunctioned, crashed and was recovered)

- I DO NOT believe that black helicopters are flying around spying on people. The NSA Echelon system can do that WITHOUT BEING SEEN.

Apollonius
13th Sep 2008, 04:12
If that sprinkler lady doesn't convice you that they're putting stuff in our water then nothing will!!! :eek:

:lmao: for all you sceptics out there, I highly recommend this sceptical podcast made by The New England Skeptical Society. That's how I found out about the sprinker lady in the first place. I've been listening to it for ages and they often discuss conspiracy theories, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive.asp

The one with the lady in the video above is in episode 160. Unfortunately they find out in a later episode that she probably is diagnosable :( it's not her only video/theory :nut:

Romeo
13th Sep 2008, 08:40
It's powerade now :D
Dude, I don't know if you drink it, but Powerade doesn't kill your sex drive. You can go for days on that stuff. lol

JerichoMccoy
13th Sep 2008, 15:18
I believe in the conspiracy theories that are credible. For example :

- I believe the US Government either intentionally or by their incompetence allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place. (I base this on the MANY inconsistencies in the 9/11 Commission Report as well as government response)

- I believe big business plays an active role in decision-making in Washington, either directly or through other means (such as lobbying, extortion, etc.).

- I believe the Central Intelligence Agency is one of the worst institutions ever created and is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in recorded history and is second only the the Catholic Church in this regard. (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act)

- I believe the National Security Agency is actively monitoring a vast majority (possible all) forms of electronic communication for the purposes of "national security" in the "war or terror". (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act and several interviews I myself have conducted)

There are MANY conspiracy theories out there that I do not believe in. For example :

- I DO NOT believe that modern technology is the result of reverse engineering from technology recovered in the Roswell crash. (I don't even believe the Roswell Incident was Alien related. I believe it was an experimental aircraft, either US or Russian, that malfunctioned, crashed and was recovered)

- I DO NOT believe that black helicopters are flying around spying on people. The NSA Echelon system can do that WITHOUT BEING SEEN.

Yet your still alive?! ...
You are a Ghost in the Machine!

El_Bel
13th Sep 2008, 17:19
Is there a reason not for him not to be alive? :scratch:

Dan_Hibiki
13th Sep 2008, 17:32
I like a good conspiracy, now and then, y'know. I find them most entertaining and they sometimes even can give me the creeps (like this disturbing phone call from the Art Bell show, where this frantic A51-guy calls). But to be honest, I don't believe in most of them. They keep you thinking, if today's media really sharing all information, and telling the true story, though. Must admit that.

Well... I kinda liked the whole Reichsflugscheiben (Reichs' Flying Saucers (tm))- story, about that secret weapon the Nazis invented, which just looks like today's Foo Fighters (the spaceship, not the band!). And that Hitler together with his most loyal companions escaped to New Swabia (in the South Pole), where they established the Fourth Reich (and still fighting the WWII!). The most ridiculous part of this whole story is the fact, that there actually modern day nazis who believe this crap! (the same retards who insist that there never was the catastrophe of the Shoa).

Btw, what's the whole thingy with 2012? Why is it always my generation, who faces utter apocalypse?

DXeXodus
15th Sep 2008, 04:36
Btw, what's the whole thingy with 2012? Why is it always my generation, who faces utter apocalypse?

That is because every generation has faced utter apocalypse. People say the world is going to end all the time. And up until now, all 42359* predictions have failed miserably.







*Of course this is a highly accurate, well researched figure that is severely true**

**But not

Prometheus-1
15th Sep 2008, 06:10
I believe in the conspiracy theories that are credible. For example :

- I believe the US Government either intentionally or by their incompetence allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place. (I base this on the MANY inconsistencies in the 9/11 Commission Report as well as government response)

- I believe big business plays an active role in decision-making in Washington, either directly or through other means (such as lobbying, extortion, etc.).

- I believe the Central Intelligence Agency is one of the worst institutions ever created and is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in recorded history and is second only the the Catholic Church in this regard. (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act)

- I believe the National Security Agency is actively monitoring a vast majority (possible all) forms of electronic communication for the purposes of "national security" in the "war or terror". (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act and several interviews I myself have conducted)

There are MANY conspiracy theories out there that I do not believe in. For example :

- I DO NOT believe that modern technology is the result of reverse engineering from technology recovered in the Roswell crash. (I don't even believe the Roswell Incident was Alien related. I believe it was an experimental aircraft, either US or Russian, that malfunctioned, crashed and was recovered)

- I DO NOT believe that black helicopters are flying around spying on people. The NSA Echelon system can do that WITHOUT BEING SEEN.

Finally, someone who actually sounds reasonable in this thread :)

The last guy who was a conspiracy theorist told me that the illuminati control the world and worship Satan and want to kill off 90% of the population and reduce the remaining 10% to slaves or some crap.

... I think my tolerance for conspiracy theories in fiction is limited to what the original Deus Ex had... and in real life -- less than that.

FrankCSIS
27th Sep 2008, 14:56
Sorry for the bump but I've just been handed a serious argument supporting my silly theory about the dangers and ambitions of democracy ;)

On last night's debate, John McCain, complaining about the inefficiency of the Permanent Security Council, declared, out of nowhere, that he would create a "League of Democracies" to handle world affairs. Such a league would include, still according to him, France, UK, Germany, and all other democracies who share his values, and specifically exclude China and Russia.

A League of Democracies.

I hate to say it peeps, but I think I'm entitled to a "I told you so" :D

That would be a hell of a step towards my very much feared institutional dictatorship. I swear, democracy conquers all!

super...
27th Sep 2008, 15:52
Any theories about something unknown or kept secret will more then likely be wrong or easily debunked.

However throughout civilization there have always been people who have tried to gain power. To think these people no longer exist or that they have not become more sophisticated over the epochs is naive. History has tutored them and they have learned their lessons well.

So where is Alexander The Great today? what tools does he use? and what are his methods of domination?

iWait
28th Sep 2008, 04:15
Well, I'm positive that official version of 9/11 is not true. By how much, is another question. There are too many inconsistencies, though. But I'm not going to try and prove that government did it, because any theory put forward on that would have even more inconsistencies.

So, I think government is hiding something, but I don't know whether reason is malevolent. I think there is reason enough to consider both. I don't know how much of a "Conspiracy Theory" that is.

I also like to talk about how the Moon Landing could have been faked. I really don't think it was, but I do think it was possible to do on the budget they had.

I guess I'm more of a Conspiracy Hypothesists...

To you and other people who believe that the official reports are wrong about 9/11, I would like to know what you believe is wrong about them. For instance the fact that jet fuel can't melt steel, or that there were secondary explosions near the base of the building.


On last night's debate, John McCain, complaining about the inefficiency of the Permanent Security Council, declared, out of nowhere, that he would create a "League of Democracies" to handle world affairs. Such a league would include, still according to him, France, UK, Germany, and all other democracies who share his values, and specifically exclude China and Russia.

A League of Democracies.

I hate to say it peeps, but I think I'm entitled to a "I told you so"

That would be a hell of a step towards my very much feared institutional dictatorship. I swear, democracy conquers all!

1. The League of Nations
2. The UN
3. You are absolutely right, we are heading to a more communistic society, and the next thing is a majority-world government where equalization takes place over personal independence.


- I believe the National Security Agency is actively monitoring a vast majority (possible all) forms of electronic communication for the purposes of "national security" in the "war or terror". (I base this on MANY documents I have obtained while using the Freedom Of Information Act and several interviews I myself have conducted)

Yes, they are monitoring most in the U.S., though they are using machines that filter out keywords. If there are enough keywords in a conversation they have a person read it and determine whether or not it is evidence of a threat.



I believe the fluoride in our tap water is a form of mind control...

Yes, this is completely right. Our souls are in the center of our teeth. Since we all run tap water through our mouth 80 hours ever day and fluoride can rot teeth, it kills our souls after a period of time. Without our soles we are easily programmed.

I am happy to see there are new people in this forum. :)

K^2
28th Sep 2008, 06:55
To you and other people who believe that the official reports are wrong about 9/11, I would like to know what you believe is wrong about them. For instance the fact that jet fuel can't melt steel, or that there were secondary explosions near the base of the building.
Pentagon crash site is inconsistent with a B757. That is a fact. There are other problems, each possibly accidental, but together amounting to a heck of a coincidence or else, something rather sinister. Even letting the WTC-1&2 collapses slide all together, there are plenty of things. Typical time to intercept of a hijacked aircraft is <15min. On 9/11 they haven't gotten there even after 30. Ok, maybe they just happened to be busy on that particular day. WTC-8 is the first ever steel-frame building of such scale to collapse due to fire alone. Note, WTC-8 was not drenched in kerosene. It simply caught fire and collapsed. Ok, so maybe that one happened to have a defect. Pentagon was struck on an unoccupied section undergoing restoration. This one we can put an actual number on. 1 in 5 odds. Now you take all these little things together, and you get an incredibly unlikely set of circumstances. What are the odds of such an unlikely day falling on the same day as a bunch of terrorists deciding to fly some planes into some buildings? This is roughly equivalent to being struck by lightning twice on the same day.

Now, all that still could have happened, however unlikely. After all, the odds of an event that already happened is unity. But that's why I point you back to Pentagon. Most of the weight of a fueled 757 is located in its wings. Specifically, engine-to-engine section. Not in fuselage, as you might think. In an impact, fuselage crumbles like a tin can. It's the midsection of the wings that does the damage. Now look at various pictures of Pentagon on 9/11. You need to find ones where smoke is already somewhat cleared, but the section has not yet collapsed. Knowing some parameters of the building it is easy to estimate the diameter of the puncture. It is a little more than diameter of the 757's fuselage.

Now, if you still have doubts, I can give you specific numbers on some of these things. The report shows which structural columns have been destroyed, and shows the trajectory of the plane. The light, aluminum fuselage of the plane has knocked down dozens, according to the report. The engines, at most one each. Engines, of course, are built from some of the strongest alloys known to man, not to mention packing the most weight per volume compared to any other part of the plane. Did the engines magically avoid all the support columns? Look at the diagrams in the report and tell me.

Personally, I have very little doubt that a 757 did not do that damage. What actually happened to the 757 and what did strike Pentagon, I do not know. There are a few theories floating around, some of which seem somewhat plausible, but if anything, they have more holes than the official version.

The only conclusion I make from all of that is that the official version is false at least to some degree. I'm going to leave speculation as to why to other people. There could have been a really good reason for that, for all I know.

gamer0004
28th Sep 2008, 08:55
Pentagon crash site is inconsistent with a B757. That is a fact. There are other problems, each possibly accidental, but together amounting to a heck of a coincidence or else, something rather sinister. Even letting the WTC-1&2 collapses slide all together, there are plenty of things. Typical time to intercept of a hijacked aircraft is <15min. On 9/11 they haven't gotten there even after 30. Ok, maybe they just happened to be busy on that particular day. WTC-8 is the first ever steel-frame building of such scale to collapse due to fire alone. Note, WTC-8 was not drenched in kerosene. It simply caught fire and collapsed. Ok, so maybe that one happened to have a defect. Pentagon was struck on an unoccupied section undergoing restoration. This one we can put an actual number on. 1 in 5 odds. Now you take all these little things together, and you get an incredibly unlikely set of circumstances. What are the odds of such an unlikely day falling on the same day as a bunch of terrorists deciding to fly some planes into some buildings? This is roughly equivalent to being struck by lightning twice on the same day.[...]


I believe this actually happend once :D

Point is, all major events are caused by all things coming together.
The fact that the Pentagon was hit in a part that was currently undergoing restoration was a bit of luck for the US, the fact that the Twin Towers went down was bad luck.
The fact that the Twin Towers went down was due to capitalistic reasons :D
Steel bars would take too long for some reason during the build, so they decided to use wooden bars covered in fireproof foam. The foam got scraped off by the plane -> big trouble for the WTC...

Yes, I absolutely agree that it is a bit unlikely all together and there are some suspicious facts, but one has to see it as a whole.
IF the US govenment had planned this, they would not have destroyed the WTC. Very simple.
For a maximum symbolic effect they would've destroyed the Empire State Building. For a sufficient killing effect they would've dropped the plane into a suburb.

The WTC was very important for the US economy; the Pentagon was too important for their Defence and had little to no effect on public opinion.

It is very clear that the terrorists opted maximum destruction; something the US government wouldn't.

El_Bel
28th Sep 2008, 10:23
A very interesting channel about 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4

Debunking every single 9/11 conspiracy theory, one at a time.

<15 minutes to scramble? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xjBbqRJT7Q

iWait
29th Sep 2008, 02:58
Thanks for the link, El_Bel, pretty cool stuff.

Also note:I don't believe in any of the 9/11 conspiracies but they are pretty interesting nonetheless.

K^2
29th Sep 2008, 05:28
IF the US govenment had planned this, they would not have destroyed the WTC. Very simple.
Quite possible, but this only eliminates US carrying out the entire thing unilaterally, which isn't likely to begin with. A somewhat more likely scenario is US Govt knowingly allowing the attack. In that case, they can't be choosy about the target, yet, would want to hide a lot of details. Then there are a bunch of possibilities that are less paranoid. Such as government trying to cover up its own incompetence in response to attack, or perhaps even not disclosing some information due to a real national security concern. As I said, the only thing that is absolutely certain is that a lot of information has been hidden from public, and that the official report does not explain what really happened on 9/11.

user-9
29th Sep 2008, 06:22
The only problem I've got is that the sceptics generally speaking haven't done their homework.

If you do, you find that the people in control are the people who own the banks - like the people who own the Federal Reserve in America - the Rockerfellas, Morgans, Warburgs. Elite famillies. In Europe and the main familly globally is the Rothschilds, their estimated worth in 1998 was $100 TRILLION. These people are the main shareholders/owners of the important banks and they own all the important land.

You are given politicians to make you FEEL like oyu've got a choice - you have no choice because there's only really one political party, the business party. Politicians come and go very quickly but these people who we're enslaved to don't and never will.

In Rockerfella's biography he says that there WILL be a one world government, whether the people like it or not.


Go on youtube and look up "Aaron Russo Interview" - He directed trading places and was running for Governor of Nevada, became friends with one of the Rockerfellas and subsequently fell out with them when he found out what they've got planned for the world.

Do your homework.

Watch the clip all the way through.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA

Romeo
29th Sep 2008, 08:34
The only problem I've got is that the sceptics generally speaking haven't done their homework.

If you do, you find that the people in control are the people who own the banks - like the people who own the Federal Reserve in America - the Rockerfellas, Morgans, Warburgs. Elite famillies. In Europe and the main familly globally is the Rothschilds, their estimated worth in 1998 was $100 TRILLION. These people are the main shareholders/owners of the important banks and they own all the important land.

You are given politicians to make you FEEL like oyu've got a choice - you have no choice because there's only really one political party, the business party. Politicians come and go very quickly but these people who we're enslaved to don't and never will.

In Rockerfella's biography he says that there WILL be a one world government, whether the people like it or not.


Go on youtube and look up "Aaron Russo Interview" - He directed trading places and was running for Governor of Nevada, became friends with one of the Rockerfellas and subsequently fell out with them when he found out what they've got planned for the world.

Do your homework.

Watch the clip all the way through.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA
I did... I still think it's absolutely as stupid as most of the other attempts to tell me I'm under someone's control are.

El_Bel
29th Sep 2008, 12:19
Russo is the guy who said federal reserve makes a profit? :lol:

About 9/11... The only point i have seen so far in favor of a conspiracy is that i cant believe that they were such a good pilots that they could hit pentagon from that angle.. That makes me wonder if they were Arabs... But what i really believe is that the US government took a HUGE advantage from the revolutionary strike of 9/11 to start series of wars.
Just like Israelis took advantage of the holocaust to build their state. It doesnt mean that there was no holocaust as some say. They just took advantage of it.

René
29th Sep 2008, 12:24
I dunno. I kind of agree with K^2.

That's why I numb the pain daily with a cocktail consisting of caffeine, sugar, and carbohydrates! Mmm, delicious caffeine...

FrankCSIS
29th Sep 2008, 19:39
Just like Israelis took advantage of the holocaust to build their state.

While I agree with the taking advantage part, I'd add it wasn't just the Israelis. I still see it as a very clever way for the good old Anglo-Saxon to build a fortress around Jerusalem some 700 years after the crusades ;)

ThatDeadDude
30th Sep 2008, 13:20
I have a firm dislike for conspiracies, outside of the world of fiction anyway.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence for the views of the theorists. For example, earlier was quoted the issue of the hole in the pentagon not being large enough considering that engines are made of some of the strongest alloys available. I feel that that argument ignores the fact that engines are spinning at up to 100s of thousands of RPM, meaning that any significant reduction in balance (such as might be caused by the compressor blades ploughing through a building) can cause the entire thing to fly apart.

As to bankers attempting to rule the world... my first question is what's so wrong with that? Democracy is something of a joke as it is, and it seems logical that wars and other issues will be much less likely under a single government. It would also be great for the economy. Nonetheless, the idea that bankers could be bothered to try to instigate such a change is a joke - human rationality means that their future plans are unlikely to extend much further than their own lifespans. In any case, there have so far been countless opportunities for such a conspiracy to be enacted over the centuries that those behind the curtain have supposedly existed, and nothing appears to have happened.

By the way, if you want to read a book involving conspiracies that will confuse the hell out of you, I recommend Foucault's Pendulum... still haven't finished the damned thing mind you :D

FrankCSIS
30th Sep 2008, 15:03
See, that's why you need to subscribe to MY conspiracy theory! :D

I really don't think there are puppeteers pulling the world on a string, although there certainly are, as simply put in DX, a bunch of old men playing at running the world. Whether or not the rich and powerful have a true influence remains to be demonstrated.

This said, I'm still entirely certain a lot of people are independently taking actions they collectively feel compelled to make, all within the boundaries set by democracy. There appears to be a pattern amidst the apparent chaos of individualism heading towards the same goal, but I doubt many of them actually realise it, let alone plan it for the long run. There could be a few world architects out there encouraging it, but the majority seem to simply act the way they were socially programmed, and have been doing so at the very least since the industrial revolution. Rockefeller and his trains come to mind. Fast transportation across long distances are absolutely necessary to get the people together. The next imminent high speed train generation will accomplish that even better, for all the Americas, the way it did for Europe.

Those who sold their souls to democracy against a potential world government will probably regret it though. I remain convinced the institution itself will take over, if it hasn't done it already.

K^2
30th Sep 2008, 17:12
I have yet to see any convincing evidence for the views of the theorists. For example, earlier was quoted the issue of the hole in the pentagon not being large enough considering that engines are made of some of the strongest alloys available. I feel that that argument ignores the fact that engines are spinning at up to 100s of thousands of RPM, meaning that any significant reduction in balance (such as might be caused by the compressor blades ploughing through a building) can cause the entire thing to fly apart.
I'm a theoretical physicist. I don't overlook things like that.

I'm not talking about the blades of the turbine of the engine. They are negligible. The toughest part of the engine is the axis onto which all of that is attached. Spinning or not, it is a huge ram made of toughest steel alloy coming in at well over 400 knots. It is going to wreck havoc.

And that isn't even the main part. The main part is that a big chunk of the airplane's weight is there, in the span from engine to engine. That's because the wings need extra strength, the fuel is stored there, the landing gear, and engines themselves add quite a bit. At the velocities we are talking about, the structural strength of most of the airplane's components is negligible. It hits the wall almost like a liquid. That excludes a few extra tough parts, like engine components and landing gear. But what does almost all of the damage is all that weight hitting the wall at high speed. Where there is more weight, there is more destruction. What we see, is destruction along a path near the fuselage. That is typical for a mass distribution of a smaller airplane. Commercial jets and many military aircraft have such distribution. A bunker-buster missile would also do it, but that's a stretch. Point is, B757 crash would look different. It would damage a wider section of the wall, not go as deep, and there would almost certainly be more large fragments outside.

JerichoMccoy
30th Sep 2008, 17:25
I may have heard or read about so many particulars in the 9/11 Conspiracy, from the planes not even being passenger planes (Cargo air ships), to holographs, to explosives being used, to seeing the devil in the smoke after the planes hit...

All I remember was on that day, I was in class, everyone was watching the news, and the lady who was on the ground floor of one of the WTC towers was saying that there was an "explosion" that hit the lobby(The camera person was inside the lobby talking to her), and a co-worker's face was "gone". There were a few more reporting the same thing, but it never got any more press time after wards.

Then I saw the Discovery Channel's "interpretation" on how the towers fell and how the Security Guards (when the first plane hit the Tower and the other Tower was about to be hit) told the people to go back up stairs, that everything was okay. I asked myself how come these guards were never investigated or even brought up towards the camera? Not even a mention of "No comment" anywhere (From where I looked).

Why the bloody hell is WTC #7, rebuilt and operational while the purposed plans for the new WTC is still undergoing renovation and the plans were found in a PUBLIC GARBAGE CAN?! Read it here (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04182008/news/regionalnews/trashy_wtc_security_106987.htm)

As a human being, they make mistakes, they acknowledge they made them, and they move on to learn from what they did wrong.

If they hide their mistakes, it gives no reason for others to trust them that they have learned from what they've gone through. They just become a bunch of cowards, un-evolved bloats that try to live this "lie" that they are perfect and nothing should ever argue with their logic because "they" know what "they" are doing.

...Sorry if this post is emotional. Just when scientific facts are being debated, sometimes I feel as if the average citizen who notices these things can't speak up because they are afraid they'll be looked down for their "observations".

gamer0004
1st Oct 2008, 10:13
Quite possible, but this only eliminates US carrying out the entire thing unilaterally, which isn't likely to begin with. A somewhat more likely scenario is US Govt knowingly allowing the attack. In that case, they can't be choosy about the target, yet, would want to hide a lot of details. Then there are a bunch of possibilities that are less paranoid. Such as government trying to cover up its own incompetence in response to attack, or perhaps even not disclosing some information due to a real national security concern. As I said, the only thing that is absolutely certain is that a lot of information has been hidden from public, and that the official report does not explain what really happened on 9/11.

I'm not sure about that last part, but I agree that it's possible that the US government knew of it (this could've been the case with Pearl Harbour as well).
However, they would need a reason for what? For bombing Afghanistan? There were no advantages of invading Afghanistan for the US government...

El_Bel
1st Oct 2008, 11:37
I'm not sure about that last part, but I agree that it's possible that the US government knew of it (this could've been the case with Pearl Harbour as well).
However, they would need a reason for what? For bombing Afghanistan? There were no advantages of invading Afghanistan for the US government...

Well you are quite right. US government has no economical reason for all those wars. In fact they cost so much that US economy is on its knees. But there are people who gain from this. Arms corporation. Strong lobbying and a corrupt president makes this theory i have pretty plausible, dont you think? Add to that some oil interests and there you have it. The reason why US attacked Afghanistan.

Btw anyone knows why the rebels attacked the WTC? I mean they where evil scumbags, haters of the democracy and s£1t? Or do you know the real reasons? Please dont check the web before you answer. I want to know what you are thinking :)

InGroove2
1st Oct 2008, 18:38
I think the current theory that the govt is going to microchip regular people would be awesome to incorporate into DX3... imagine

you're trying to infiltrate something... anything in a city... and the shadow govt is controling regular workers by way of microchip and they set off some civilians to go after you by way of microchip manipulation.

so you go to have to a) figure out whether or not informants are chipped
b) if they are, remove the chip
c) you might be misinformed by a chipped person being controlled by the shadow govt and led into a trap.

foxberg
1st Oct 2008, 18:56
Not quite sure it it fits the description of "conspiracy theory", but I do believe in a theory professed by Zecharia Sitchin. In a nut shell he goes to say that the first civilization of a Man, namely Sumerian, was "developed", so to speak, by Gods/Aliens roaming the planet some 6000 years ago. He draws very interesting parallels between various myths, Hindu religion and Torah (Old Testament). He also gives quite a unique interpretation of the evens derived from ancient tablets, drawings, carvings and scriptures.

K^2
2nd Oct 2008, 00:26
However, they would need a reason for what? For bombing Afghanistan? There were no advantages of invading Afghanistan for the US government...
Patriot Act, and a few other unconstitutional executive orders since then. Essentially, the executive branch strengthened itself at the expense of freedoms of its subjects. As with any strengthening of central powers, the large industries and corporations would be the ones to gain from it.

Now, I'm not saying that this gain was necessarily the cause of 9/11. But it has been, without a doubt, capitalized on. The government and large corporations gained from 9/11, while the general population lost a lot more than lives of the 3,000 people.

super...
2nd Oct 2008, 05:52
However, they would need a reason for what? For bombing Afghanistan? There were no advantages of invading Afghanistan for the US government...

in short the wars have increased military funding a whole lot, something very very nice if you happen to be a part of the military.

A military needs an enemy. The act of 911 allowed the military to declare war on terror, this is the perfect situation for the military because terror can not be defeated because It's a tactic. even if they take down one cell or cause another will arise.

This is the never ending war. Chaney knew the intractable cluster f Iraq would become. He is on camera practically giving a proficiency of what would happen in iraq!

the military is currently developing tools and weapons that have little to no use in the wars we are currently fighting. The navy has developed a brand spanking new anfibius assault platform? iraq has a very small coast line, I wonder what they will use it for.

They are now training troops for deployment in the USA, but they are fairly quite as to what they expect them to be doing.

Now take into account how much the vice president has been pushing for the privatization or our armed forces and intelligence operations. How they are tying to make them immune to military tribunal or the domestic courts. just think about black watter becoming a military force immune to law and taking it's orders from a few unelected citizens. it's not to far fetched to think of them as MJ12's armed forces.

The massive build up of our military can be attributed to 911. Chaney wished for a new pearl harbor and he got it.

Mindmute
2nd Oct 2008, 11:17
the military is currently developing tools and weapons that have little to no use in the wars we are currently fighting. The navy has developed a brand spanking new anfibius assault platform? iraq has a very small coast line, I wonder what they will use it for.

As for this part of your post, I'd have to guess that they're simply trying to stay ahead of their needs.
If a military becomes too reactive and only responds to the tactical needs they currently have then their methods are bound to become obsolete even before a war starts.
As far as military research is concerned, projects that little use for the current scenarios aren't a rare occurence, you don't see them and they aren't spoken about as often as the other ones but they do exist.

As for the rest of the post, I'd rather not state my opinion. I have somewhat mixed views on all of that. ;)

El_Bel
2nd Oct 2008, 11:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCc-LL9mt1o

Ruling the World in 10 Easy Steps :D

Can anyone answer my previous question? Why the rebels attacked WTC(without google search)?

DXeXodus
2nd Oct 2008, 12:32
Ooh, pick me. I know:

They were actually part of the French terrorist group, Silhouette. The planes were meant to hit the Statue of Liberty, but they missed. :scratch:

That's my conspiracy for the day.

foxberg
2nd Oct 2008, 15:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCc-LL9mt1o

Ruling the World in 10 Easy Steps :D

Can anyone answer my previous question? Why the rebels attacked WTC(without google search)?

Rebels? Revolutionary strike of 9/11? Why don't you just call them "Freedom Fighters" or "Liberators" of the oppressed Arab states from the evil hand of Israel? I've lived through this terror act in NYC. I was there when it happened and still live there. Every time I see certain individuals on the street I'm hard pressed not to think about the events of 9/11. It's very easy to look from the outside and try to judge, explain and classify. "Those poor people had a cause" and some other ***** like that. These atrocities did not only happen in NY. London, Spain, Holland and many more felt the consequences of this plague that we should call by it's name - Fundamental Islam. Deny it as much as you want. Facts speak for themselves.

El_Bel
2nd Oct 2008, 16:14
So they where just madman? They dont like freedom and do everything they can to make as scared. Than why dont they attack Germany, Italy, Greece, Sweden, Canada, Mexico, Brazil...?

Are you saying 3000 people died for nothing? You thing thats better for their memory? What have you learned from this strike? What was the lesson?

foxberg
2nd Oct 2008, 16:37
The strike was preplanned, orchestrated and very well funded. Madmen? Not in a sense that they didn't know what they were doing. Their families were very well taken care of after the attack. In the fundamental Islamic world they are looked upon as saints. 3000 people died so we shall never forget the face of our true enemy. Yes, US made a mistake by training those bastards during the cold war. But by no means does it serve as a justification of happened. And the lesson that should be learned is that US border patrol and immigration services should really think twice before granting the permission to enter the country to certain individuals. You say this is profiling? And I say - absolutely!

El_Bel
2nd Oct 2008, 16:59
Not that you should not intervene and anger the world? You(and by saying you i dont mean you or any other US citizen, but the government the last 60 years)
do whatever you want around the world. Whatever you want. You dont ask for permissions, you dont play by the rules, you help governments you like and if someone does not hear you you bomb him. I'm sorry thats the truth. I am much more afraid of America than i am of Arabs. What the rebels did was to send you(you the people and the government) a message. "Hey stop *****ing the world because we can hurt you as well. Pull your troops and we can have peace." and they have been trying to say that peacefully for almost 10 years.

You said that: "Their families were very well taken care of after the attack. In the fundamental Islamic world they are looked upon as saints." Well i have a question for you. Why? They hate Christians? They hate freedom? Does America has some responsibility for this?

Ps: I feel sorry for the victims, wherever they are. Your 3000 innocent, the hundreds thousand of innocents your troops kills... All of them. Violence is never the solution. I wish 9/11 never happened. But now it happened at least i hope that you will open your eyes as to why it happened. Oh and i dont wanna pick a fight, i want to hold this conversation to a level and i want to learn new things so i will keep an open mind. I hope you can too.

K^2
2nd Oct 2008, 17:07
Except that immigration has done their job. These people were watched by CIA. And still, 9/11 happened. Despite that, the "solution" has been to tighten security to the point where it makes travel difficult, yet, I still wouldn't have any trouble carrying in most types of weapons to the plane. I think people have learned the wrong lesson here. Paranoia doesn't defeat terrorism. It's actually the thing that terrorists are trying to achieve.

3,000 people is quite a few. But that many people die daily for one reason or another. It is also in the ballpark of annual death toll of car accidents in United States. I hate to sound heartless, but the real loss wasn't the 3,000 lives. It is what people allowed to be done afterward out of fear and nothing else.

3nails4you
2nd Oct 2008, 17:47
There were no advantages of invading Afghanistan for the US government...

You mean other than the fact that most of Al Qaeda, the group responsible for the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center as well as the Pentagon, was hiding in Afghanistan at the time? I mean, that sounds like a pretty good reason to me...

super...
2nd Oct 2008, 19:24
As for this part of your post, I'd have to guess that they're simply trying to stay ahead of their needs.
If a military becomes too reactive and only responds to the tactical needs they currently have then their methods are bound to become obsolete even before a war starts.
As far as military research is concerned, projects that little use for the current scenarios aren't a rare occurence, you don't see them and they aren't spoken about as often as the other ones but they do exist.

As for the rest of the post, I'd rather not state my opinion. I have somewhat mixed views on all of that. ;)

very true, but without 911 I doubt they would have the money to developed it and the many other projects they are working on. But really a whole new land/sea assault platform? That screams of invading some place because when was the last time we needed to assault our own beach in defense of the US?.

You could take the view that even if the US planed and carried out the attacks of 911 that it was a heroic sacrifice that was absolutely necessary to keep our military prepared to fight. That the American populous needed, no deserved the slap to the face to keep it's self awake in these dangerous times.

But I'm not necessarily going to give people more credit then they deserve.

K^2
2nd Oct 2008, 20:50
You mean other than the fact that most of Al Qaeda, the group responsible for the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center as well as the Pentagon, was hiding in Afghanistan at the time? I mean, that sounds like a pretty good reason to me...
You missed the point. In his opinion, the only reason to stage an attack, or let it happen knowingly, is to start a war with Afghanistan, which, prior to 9/11 there was no point in doing.

However, he is missing a few other points. Such as starting a war with anybody who isn't strong enough to respond with war on US soil was good for US Govt at the time. I believe, war in Iraq was started for the same reason. Oil is just a bonus and good distraction. Furthermore, the 9/11 and subsequent wars have allowed US Govt to essentially ignore the bill of rights. So there is no doubt that people in power have benefited greatly from 9/11, war in Afghanistan, and war in Iraq.

Abram730
4th Oct 2008, 08:23
I note a lot of indignation of CT and I quantify this as a blind obedience to authority. The sceptic that can't determine things for themselves and needs a person in a position of authority to tell them what is and what isn't true, as in a reputable source.

So lets talk about an experiments looking at these skeptical conformists. An ad was taken out for volunteers for a memory experiment. The experiment was set up where a person in a position of authority asked one person called the teacher to shock a person for a wrong answer called the learner using ever increasing voltages. As the power was cranked up the person would scream and beg for the shocks to stop that he had a heart problem begging for the experiment to stop and at the highest voltages, cause the person to go silent(dead).

66% went all the way as in Sadistic murder and shocking a dead body. This grew to 90% after witnessing a peer complete the experiment.
****

the original experiment
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2357097711182752511

a reenactment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg
The Lucifer affect (experiment discussed at 9:40)

So Heroes are deviants too.
:eek:

In making a game with a Conspiracy plot you need to get the concepts right and deus ex2 had some plot issues as well as gameplay and interface.

“We all know that Art is not truth. Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth, at least the truth that is given to us to understand.” - Pablo Picasso

#1 core concepts
like the fact that people conform to systems and peer groups. We use pyramidal organizational structures that put a few people in total control. People presuppose that nobody will abuse this structure yet that ignores human nature and the archetypes drawn to power. In Deus ex you are sold a reality that develops some holes. How does the player react to the red pill? Reactions are usually one of the 3. Disbelief and emotion reaction that disassociates from the discomfort of learning you live a lie. Anger at being told, another emotional reaction. Acceptance or dispute of the knowledge ends in truth as it's logical.


#2 there are groups of evil people who do control the world.. It's a fact, although a complex subject that few understand past the surface statement. As many say, those who rule the world don't think of themselves as evil. criminal conspiracy or are they just like a tight knit fraternity bent on dominating the world? In America it's more like plantation owners of the pre civil war south drawn together in a loose association by common beliefs and shared self interests(plantation autocrats and corporatocracy's oligarchs). Is a group criminal if they make the laws? It depends on your perspective, morality and your social circles. Criminals rarely did anything bad, just ask them and they will almost all tell you they didn't do it or why they had to. An Evil man talks of his riotousness and Good as he forces a child to cut off his mothers head.

The "Good" Shepard is one that doesn't show the flock his knife, yet is still just as much a predator.


truth is complex and is usually still putting its shoes on as the lie travels around the world.

Deus 1 felt complex, full and held my attention. Deus ex 2 took the val off to much and dumbed it down. You plot must be easy to presuppose, so drop the word theory and drop the emotional baggage. the sceptical mind botched the plot of pt2. If you make a cult classic, you made art. Also there should be more room for player interpretation to shape the game.

“Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its roots in the street.” - Joseph Goebbels


#3 Is it's a conspiracy or an ideology?
If friends hate Democracy and dedicate your life to destroying it, is it a conspiracy or a "Big Idea"? What if they call destroying democracy democratizing the world and spreading freedom? Ideas do have consequences.

Psychology plays an important roll in planing such things.

There is a book called "psychiatrists the men behind Hitler"

Now Deus ex left that open to the player, depending on who you believed and what you find out. Plus what is the most appealing ideological pitch or Big idea!!

Psychology?
Lets look at how people can be tricked.. I think it would be helpful to game designers in developing a good plot. After making a grand plot you need break it up into pieces so that many layers can exist at the same time. Perhaps one faction is the one you work for and uses peer and system conformance. Another group has infiltrated and attempts to control you with hard to notice mind games or appealing to your desires to shift you away from group 1 to the goals of group 2. Group 3, a revolutionary group that attempts to tell it how it is.

hopefully these vids help with mind game ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f29kF1vZ62o
little chunks can reassemble into an idea. A picture of the twin towers on a desk and a safe code 0911 or things a few random schizo bums blab about in word soup add up to a clue that you only get sub consciously and notice on a second play threw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg
Classic Neuro Linguistic Programing.(ambiguity, anchoring, suggestion) you can association in the game to link different parts of the game.. like reading an email that is a bit cryptic you can have a noise or object and again at a point where that could apply. You could use a few cryptic emails with different anchors and key them off at the same time. Giving the player an ahhh haa if they read the emails. So in talking about the game not everybody will have gotten that sub plot part. After a second play threw the email would be more consciously understood if they notice the anchor. A replay value/cult classic quality in that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II_-QcW4Q4I
distraction then command with ambiguity used at the end. by having something grab the players attention during a conversation a line could be slipped in without the player noticing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOEKdaXIEHc
Fun with sheep at a Mall. background public addresses can contain commands. Perhaps an easter egg of sorts in the game that people may not notice.

A person can speak on many levels to implant ideas in your mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d6qT4wNvLA
would a girl kill a kitten?

Something to think about.
Our Government has over 100 million secrets. How do you have a Democracy in a country with 1 secret for every 3 citizens? Kind of hard don't think considering people need to know facts to come to decisions. How many of the secrets are cover ups?:scratch:

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” - Adolf Hitler

Abram730
4th Oct 2008, 08:46
So What is the fascist talk about?

lets look at The Fellowship aka The Family aka the Christian Mafia.
This is the most powerful "Christian" group in America and host the national prayer breakfast. This group is quite sick in that instead of having a trinity of the father the son and the holy ghost, it's a trinity of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. They say that Democracy has run it's course and it's time for "Godly Rule" on earth. They use Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Bin Laden, Pol Pot and other as examples of Godly rule.

Examples of their morality or lack there of from the harper's article "Jesus Plus Nothing".

David Coe their leader said, “let's talk about the Old Testament. Who would you say are its good guys?”...
“King David,” David Coe said. “That's a good one. David. Hey. What would you say made King David a good guy?”... “King David,” David Coe went on, “liked to do really, really bad things.” He chuckled. “Here's this guy who slept with another man's wife—Bathsheba, right?—and then basically murders her husband. And this guy is one of our heroes.”

(note that he says that King David was GOOD because of the Horrible things he did. Evil = Good)

“Beau, let's say I hear you raped three little girls. And now here you are at Ivanwald. What would I think of you, Beau?”
Beau shrank into the cushions. “Probably that I'm pretty bad?”
“No, Beau. I wouldn't. Because I'm not here to judge you. That's not my job. I'm here for only one thing.”
“Jesus?” Beau said. David smiled and winked.

(Child rape doesn't bother him)

“Genghis was a man with a VISION. He conquered”... "He devastated nearly everything. His enemies? He beheaded them.”
"when Genghis entered a defeated city he would call in the local headman and have him stuffed into a crate. Over the crate would be spread a tablecloth, and on the tablecloth would be spread a wonderful meal. “
"And then, while the man suffocated, Genghis ate, and he didn't even hear the man's screams.” David still stood on the couch, a finger in the air. “Do you know what that means?” He was thinking of Christ's parable of the wineskins. “You can't pour new into old,”... “Isn't that great?” David said. “That's the way everything in life happens. If you're a person known to be around Jesus, you can go and do anything. And that's who you guys are. When you leave here, you're not only going to know the value of Jesus, you're going to know the people who rule the world. It's about VISION.

(Note he says Ganghis was thinking of Jesus when he conquered. Also the word VISION is used as a linking word)

The late Indonesian president Suharto and Somalia's bloodthirsty strongman Siad Barre were "brothers" of the Family. They prayed with congressmen, oilmen and arms dealers. Later some lucrative business was done. It was after hearing that Suharto had killed around 100,000 of his own citizens, that "The Family" knew he was "their kind of guy" and helped him kill as many as 1.8 million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaYia5Ensw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVrQkunIZXo
videos including Coe

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8081739555028490211
interview with the author of "The Family"

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm
some history

"the Family's long-term project of a worldwide government under God is more ambitious than Al Qaeda's dream of a Sunni empire."

"The Family" inverts Christian values like helping the poor is Evil and helping the rich is good. Mostly though it's greed and lust for power.
V for Vendetta makes more sense if you look into this group.;)

“If the German people lay down their weapons, the Soviets, according to the agreement between Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, would occupy all of East and Southeast Europe along with the greater part of the Reich. An "IRON CURTAIN" would fall over this enormous territory controlled by the Soviet Union, behind which nations would be slaughtered.” - Joseph Goebbels
hmmm who else used the term "IRON CURTAIN":scratch:

:eek:
In America many things that go unsaid.
like America Exported Eugenics to Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZWGLxgzpc
a short
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9014940408212321489
a long talk

America didn't end slavery till after WWII.****
http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/30375/1/bmj_blackmon_slavery_062008.wmv/

:eek:
We fire munitions made from spent nuclear fuel rods.
http://www.wise-uranium.org/pdf/durepe.pdf
Depleted Uranium Hazard Awareness - US Army Training Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U93PBZIyqBs
:mad2:

War is a racket
http://rationalrevolution0.tripod.com/war/major_general_smedley_butler_usm.htm
Smedley Butler who stopped the Coup to remove FDR. It was "The Family" and other fascists who called the "New Deal" the "Jew Deal" that were going to march an army of 500,000 American Legion veterans into DC to remove Roosevelt from office by force.


Lets look at more going ons at the top.

The Century of the Self
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9167657690296627941
PT1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-678466363224520614
PT2

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6111922724894802811
PT3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1122532358497501036
PT4

“We don't license magicians, astrologers, fortune tellers and politicians, so why the hell do we license psychologists? Dr”

“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society.” - Edward Bernays

But it's not Democratic society if you manipulate the organized habits and opinions of the masses.
“Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.” - Noam Chomsky

Abram730
4th Oct 2008, 09:44
Think the last posts were long?:rasp:
As for 911, the evidence is clear that the official 911 Conspiracy Theory holds no water.

The Big Picture is important (top down)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3117338213439292490
War and Globalization

A close look (bottom up)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3944047011450313064
911 Mysteries

as for 911 "sceptics" that say there were "no bombs" in the buildings. How about I use the president as a source? No bombs in the buildings on 911? The president seems to disagree.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060915-2.html
8th paragraph

the problem is that Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp, also linked for years to the Bush family.

OR some video of a post explotion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2vxj2yxfAM

So where did everybody get the official story from? It was explained on 911 as everybody was glazed over from shock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nVFWevtIyk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EuK3tCihJ0
early reporting suggests the news wires acted as scripts.

It was just admitted by the military in a trial of one detainee that flight 93 was shot down(not the passengers). Now there was a no shoot down order so I'm guessing somebody disobeyed orders. If the news was scripted then a wire about it hitting it's target may have been reported.

I just did a search and Yep.. Camp David
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqh2aof6W80

“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.” - Joseph Goebbels

ever here the term "Pink elephant"?
clip from the power of nighmares.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTTgpsAs4_c

To draw up a complex and detailed cave complex purely out of fantasy should tell you something.

Bin Laden's handler was in the ISI and Bin Laden was killed in 2001.
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers25/paper2417.html
SAAG Paper no. 2417. 19-Oct-2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg
Benazir Bhutto "Bin ladan murdered"

The anouncment of his death was in al-Wafd, Wednesday, December 26, 2001 Vol 15 No 4633



“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” - Joseph Goebbels

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4jQw9lLzs
september 11-> sadam-> fear

The fear has worn off(threat assessment) solution: another terrorist attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iszT__yYTnU

7-7 attack
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8756795263359807776


Now I do disagree with the presupposition in the power of nightmares that the Neo-cons believe what they are selling as they shift positions so much. In fact here is a key founder of the Neo-"conservative" movement admitting to being a Marxist.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4339772229466283806

Power is a goal and the idea is that to rule you need to use "big lies" and what is bigger then your entire ideology?

I'll also ask you to notice the intelectual similarities between the neo-con position and the Islamists.

The Power of Nightmares
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-53500833677585746
PT1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4602171665328041876
PT2

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2081592330319789254
PT3

Recall the part about governments in the middle east infiltrating Islamist groups to provoke attacks. Now consider the first attacks on the trade centers.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8931450018968737845
93 attacks

FBI Informant Edam Salem: "...we was start already building the bomb which is went off in the World Trade Center. It was built by supervising supervision from the Bureau and the DA and we was all informed about it and we know that the bomb start to be built. By who? By your confidential informant. What a wonderful great case!"

so listen to the man that built the bomb talking to the FBI.
http://nwo.media.xs2.net/tape/emad%20salem.mp3
salem.mp3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih8yPzPgWEA
note the ISI connection and that the CIA gave them green cards.

Freedom isn’t a flag pin. It’s a responsibility. Do you live your life like cattle, a mindless consumer? A top down society is authoritarianism and such blind devotion is Anti-Democratic and thus Anti-American.


How about a slap in the face with truth?

How does giving the US military to the G20 sound to you? The G20 as a "functioning executive" to order our military into action? The majority of our force structure being corporate(sysadmin).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3xlb6_0OEs
The Pentagon's new map

With talk of A New World Order and The Project for a New American Century Consider the last American Century and New Order.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOQXTZyi_P4
Something forgotten(4:00 -10:00)

Here is some future pacing June 2001.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-299973541062474931
Wolfowitz Chilling Speech

Pearl Harbor a surprise? "very few of these surprises are the product of simple blindness or simple stupidity." - Wolfowitz
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
Pearl Harbor

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

PS: We Funded Al-Qaeda in Iraq too:mad2:
In September 1998, Congressmen Ben Gilman and (R-NY) and Christopher Cox (R-CA) introduced the Iraq Liberation Act (HR 4655) . Supported by a barrage of letters, articles and congressional testimony from noted neocons like Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and Zalmay Khalilzad, the bill was intended to force the administration to finance dissident groups in Iraq. The bill demanded $97 million in funding signed into law as Public Law No: 105-338

In January 1999, the State Department provided Congress with the list of Iraqi opposition groups. The list included US based Iraqi National Congress led by Ahmed Chalabi and Iraqi National Accord led by Iyad Allawi, and Iran based SCIRI and Dawa. The list also included all major Kurdish factions, the PUK, KDP and IMK.

On February 5, 1999, after consultations with Congress, the Administration designated in Presidential Determination 99-13 the Islamic Movement of Kurdistan (IMK) as eligible to receive U.S. military assistance under the ILA. The support is referenced in the State Departments report to Congress in June 2000 (CRS 98-179 F pdf file).

They became Ansar al-Islam or reported as Al-Qaeda in Iraq and lead by Zarqawi.

PPS: if anybody follows all the links.. I'd love to know how long it takes to read and view it all.:lmao: Truth is complex as in it takes time. Lies are short and simple.

JerichoMccoy
4th Oct 2008, 16:31
I'm going to enjoy reading all of this tonight! Thank you for sharing these ideas, theories, and facts.

...Your not a government agent by any chance are you?:cool:

SubTonic20
4th Oct 2008, 16:41
I believe in conspiracies, but I do not believe in any specifics. I just generally know that there are corrupt organizations and people out there with bad intentions. This stuff has been around since the dawn of civilization.

Abram730
4th Oct 2008, 21:50
I'm going to enjoy reading all of this tonight! Thank you for sharing these ideas, theories, and facts.

...Your not a government agent by any chance are you?:cool:

No.. I have done some contract work before but much of that involved SSI information. My posts would never include information relating to that for obvious reasons.

Big Orange
9th Oct 2008, 09:39
I'm no fan of Islamofascism, but the rank incompetence and greed of the Bush regime made things worse and they've killed far more innocent people.

I believe there are very small and very powerful cliques of secretive businessmen, religious leaders, media barons, and politicians, but nothing at all on the same complexity, scale, ultra-secrecy and ultra-competence as the Illuminati Conspiracy, a paranoid fiction dreamnt up by strange people who are ignorant about the limits of powerful people and the limits of co-operation between powerful institutions.

Laokin
9th Oct 2008, 21:31
ya, just like the army used to put bromide in soldiers tea to lessen their sex drive.

http://www.ivanfraser.com/articles/health/fluoride.html


I find this quite ironic.

"WHAT CAN I EXPECT TO HAPPEN TO ME IF I DRINK THIS WATER?

Almost everyone who drinks this water will be fine and will have no symptoms at all. Those people who do develop symptoms will suffer nausea, diarrhea, cramps, and possibly a mild fever. Those symptoms are very much what you would expect from the flu or a case of food poisoning. If you get these symptoms, you should do what you would normally do with the flu. The most important thing to do is avoid dehydration. Call a doctor if an infant develops these symptoms or if you develop them and you are elderly or your immune system is weak."

http://www.health.state.ri.us/environment/dwq/waterqa.php

They actually tell you to drink more water if you are having symptoms of contaminated water. Sounds like a conspiracy to me :-).

Anyone interested should check out "Esoteric Agenda" & "Zeitgeist", as these are videos of the most popular conspiracy theory in current America.

Esoteric Agenda
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6030443037963555139

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Apparently part two of Zeitgeist is out, you will also find it on their main page.

And for my standpoint, I believe there are some wrongs in these theories some where.... but something tells me there is an awful light of rights as well.

Abram730
16th Oct 2008, 05:43
on the lighter side

The lemon-lime conspiracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVPPy5w9NA

Abram730
18th Oct 2008, 08:18
Ooh, pick me. I know:

They were actually part of the French terrorist group, Silhouette. The planes were meant to hit the Statue of Liberty, but they missed. :scratch:

That's my conspiracy for the day.
one more DX conspiracy.
in DX1 if you run around Liberty Island, you can see the New York skyline. The Twin Towers are missing because allegedly, they were destroyed by terrorists. This was a design decision for a game released before 9/11/01.:whistle:

JCDentonMale
20th Oct 2008, 08:10
I read this topic, and found it interesting, however I just would like to say, most of the conspiracies you talk about are focused on USA, but the world isn't USA, and it isn't "USA against the rest of the world". If there's worldwide conspiracies, that's something that goes well beyond your borders. But maybe the source of the problem is this : if only you stopped to consider yourself as the center of the world, probably there will be much less wars in the world and even nobody would have detourned those planes on 9/11.

And for Deus Ex 3 I hope that the conspiracy will not only take place in USA and isn't about "someone want something bad for USA". I will highly prefer a worldwide conspiracy as in Deus Ex 1.

Deus_Ex_Machina
20th Oct 2008, 09:21
Even though I'm a bit skeptical with the Illuminati conspiracy theory, I thought I'd post it anyway.

If anyone can dissect and disprove the following, it would rofl my copter. :D

THE ILLUMINATI CONSPIRACY THEORY TIMELINE

- Founded as a sect of the Hashshashin (Order of Assassins) sometime in the 11th Century. The sect was later wiped out sometime in the 13th Century.

- Resurfaces in Afghanistan as the Roshinaya sometime in the 16th Century. The group was later wiped out by an alliance of Persians and Mongolians also sometime in the 16th Century.

- Resurfaces in Spain as The Allumbrados sometime in the 17th Century. The group was later wiped out in 1623.

- Resurfaces in Bavaria as The Bavarian Illuminati in 1776 and was founded by Adam Weishaupt. The group was wiped out by the Bavarian government in 1785.

- Resurfaces in the United States of America as a sect of The Freemasons in 1778.

- The current status of The Illuminati is unknown.


According to The Illuminati Conspiracy Theory Timeline, The Illuminati is either :

- A group of individuals that resurfaces as another group every time it is caught.

OR

- A group of individuals that uses MANY groups for its own agenda, with each group knowing nothing about the other groups.

As I said, I'm not too keen on the Illuminati conspiracy theory, but maybe someone on these forums will like it.

Morgan_Everett
22nd Oct 2008, 03:47
The Alumbrados (it was a catholic sect) has no relation with the Illuminati.
Was founded in 1776 by Adam Weishaupt.

All this are inventions of Dam Brown.

Deus_Ex_Machina
22nd Oct 2008, 03:59
The Alumbrados (it was a catholic sect) has no relation with the Illuminati.
Was founded in 1776 by Adam Weishaupt.

All this are inventions of Dam Brown.

Incorrect. This particular conspiracy theory of the Illuminati was originally proposed in the early 1970s, years before any work of Dan Brown.

Abram730
23rd Oct 2008, 08:41
I'm not sure about that last part, but I agree that it's possible that the US government knew of it (this could've been the case with Pearl Harbour as well).
However, they would need a reason for what? For bombing Afghanistan? There were no advantages of invading Afghanistan for the US government...

Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/3291
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html

dixieflatline
24th Oct 2008, 21:00
Controlling more of the heroin trade? Heroin production went up like 400% since the US invasion.

dixieflatline
24th Oct 2008, 21:13
I totally believe something isn't right with the official story of 9/11.

It's already been gone over a bit in this thread, so I won't say too much on it.

One good news story on the subject that was never reported in the Western media was even the opposition party of the Japanese Parliament publically doubted the official story. Here's a link to the article (btw this website has excellent other under-reported stories, such as how Bush has changed the laws to be able to use US military against civilians, and how mass prison camps are being built) :

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/24-japan-questions-9-11-and-the-global-war-on-terror/


A quote from article:
"
The Japanese parliament viewed several slides from the Pentagon and World Trade Center (WTC) sites as Fujita explained each. The slides showed evidence inconsistent with official explanation: damage in and around the Pentagon was not consistent with the damage a 757 airplane would cause. Fujita noted, “Also, there were more than eighty security cameras at the Pentagon, but officials have refused to release the footage. In any case, as you have just seen, there is no picture of the airplane or of its wreckage in any of these photographs. It is very strange that no such pictures have been shown to us.” A US Air Force official corroborated the fact that the plane executed a U-turn and avoided the Defense Secretary’s office, a feat that would be impossible for an unskilled first-time pilot to maneuver; and no air defense was made in the ninety-minute interval between the initial impact of the planes at the WTC and the Pentagon. Fujita added, “It is baffling that no flight records were found at any of four sites.” On the ground at the WTC sites, both sounds and visual evidence from explosions were verified. Flying debris shot out as far as 150 meters consistent with buildings exploding. A New York fireman during rescue operations confirmed that a series of explosions resembled a professional demolition, and a Japanese survivor heard explosions while fleeing the site. The World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7), forty-seven stories high and located one block away, collapsed into its footprint, seven hours after the main WTC buildings were attacked, in five or six seconds, although no plane struck it and it had minimal fire damage. "

Yet another thing this BEYOND suspicious is official story of how 'somehow' investigators found a passport at the WTC site that links that has been taken as proof of the identity of one of the hijackers. Like how can you believe this ? This beyond plausible... it would be more reasonable to suggest that the Earth is made out of play-dough: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Sep-16-Sun-2001/news/17011253.html

After reading and studying all the info out there for about 15 hours, and seeing what has happened since 2001 (with even my country, Canada, throwing out personal rights for its citizens under this guise of 'anti-terror') it is my conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job.

Main shortlist of reasons why I believe this: 1) the huge insider 'short' trading options on the airlines involved on Sept. 10th ; 2) only one film released of the plane hitting the pentagon, although they have at least 100 cameras at the site; 3) the wreckage of the plane crashing in the field and the pentagon hardly exist; 4) well, I could go on on on.

Really I think it is the LOGICAL conclusion to make. I'd be open to anyone challenging any of my points.

dixieflatline
24th Oct 2008, 21:20
One more thing: has anyone watched the pilot episode of the X-files spin off show, the Lone Gunmen?

I don't believe it was a conspiracy... just an incredible coincidence.

If you haven't seen it, I don't want to spoil it for you. But I highly recommend x 100 that you watch -- trust me, you won't believe your eyes. Don't read about it -- just watch and it be surprised...

MagnumJoe
24th Oct 2008, 21:43
After i have seen 9/11 Mysteries Part 1: Demolition, and Loose Change - Final Cut, i am dead sure 9/11 was an inside job.

jjmikhail
25th Oct 2008, 16:18
I was passed on some sort of link to the U.S. Military's plans for, as they put it in Deus Ex, augmentation for U.S. Soldiers. In other words 'super' Soldiers.

Does anyone know what the link is to that, seems a bit fishy...

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 03:03
I was passed on some sort of link to the U.S. Military's plans for, as they put it in Deus Ex, augmentation for U.S. Soldiers. In other words 'super' Soldiers.

Does anyone know what the link is to that, seems a bit fishy...

military computer games for trainning. Full AI conversation
http://www.universityofmilitaryintelligence.us/mipb/IEWTPT%20HUMINT%20Overview%2020070315.pdf

A few links for Military Augmentation projects.

AugCog
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/03/augcog-continue.html

Post-human Warriors
The Future of War
http://www.thirdeyemag.com/nonfiction/essays/post-human-warriors/

Even smaller counties are going this direction.
Korean Defense Security Command cyborg solder.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200705/200705230023.html

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 03:10
In DX3 there should be some mention of Chicago being nuked. I know it was leveled in DX2.. but perhaps a tactical nuke is detonated there in 2016.. I'm just saying. you know kinda like there was an earlier attack on the trade towers.

jjmikhail
27th Oct 2008, 18:11
military computer games for trainning. Full AI conversation
http://www.universityofmilitaryintelligence.us/mipb/IEWTPT%20HUMINT%20Overview%2020070315.pdf

A few links for Military Augmentation projects.

AugCog
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/03/augcog-continue.html

Post-human Warriors
The Future of War
http://www.thirdeyemag.com/nonfiction/essays/post-human-warriors/

Even smaller counties are going this direction.
Korean Defense Security Command cyborg solder.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200705/200705230023.html

Cheers will look into but there was an actual direct link from a military site but this is pretty good.

Thanks:)

Abram730
28th Oct 2008, 10:39
Conspiracy of Science - Earth is in fact growing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjgidAICoQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iW5HUrEkc8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1oza6jybOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d44Jj_3gp-M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH_5SFHXSzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fsg1XJTbKA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBT8KyWVxj8

Abram730
31st Oct 2008, 17:09
one more DX conspiracy.
in DX1 if you run around Liberty Island, you can see the New York skyline. The Twin Towers are missing because allegedly, they were destroyed by terrorists. This was a design decision for a game released before 9/11/01.:whistle:

More on invent...err discovering a DX CT..lol just goofing.

SAM CARTER
In my day international peacekeepers were citizens first and soldiers second.
You can forget about that extra ammo. I'm only going to give you the multitools; I think you should concentrate more on mission objectives and less on the enemy body count. You've got your equipment. Now move out.
Try to remember: people have rights. Don't just shoot everything that moves.
My unit killed a bunch of Afghans one time, but we weren't proud of it. In fact, our liaison at the UN went to the funeral.

Game was made before 911 and we went into Afghanistan after.:scratch:

spm1138
31st Oct 2008, 23:53
Nobody mentioned Denver International Airport yet :(

Abram730
2nd Nov 2008, 15:43
Seeing how DX presented FEMA as having other motives.

The REX84 conversation with the NSF prisoner

So REX84, continuity of government, FEMA.

FEMA Militarization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZeDx1MFbb8
Congress is kept away from Rex 84 FEMA camp Martial Law plan
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=v_gD25lwjAk&
FEMA Executive Orders List & Directive 51
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fDYllakM0hk
FEMA Concentration camps in USA with Google Earth
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxd_hsiZ1Ak
FEMA Camps & Martial Law Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6aKffPFoZk
Leaked FEMA Training Video - "Founding Fathers were Terrorists!"
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2EZX9_El5Wo
"Fake" FEMA Press Conference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyry7RjREyY
FEMA Arrives in New York 9/10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLy_nmnE2FM
Posse Comitatus RIP 3rd Infantry to target Americans
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9qkE34fr6yo



For your viewing plesure
New Fema Trucks?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C3TTGbje_JE

OrdoAbchao
3rd Dec 2008, 08:53
I don't believe in conspiracy theories but I do have an understanding of the intersecting nature of think tanks & malthusian multilateral globalist movements, the way they feed into policymaking simultaneously across apparently individual autonomous sovereign nations via hegelian methods & I read the documents they release whenever I can, I find them way more troubling than the prospect of an alien invasion & lizard people lol
things like the council on foreign relations first global revolution report, codex alimentarius & agenda 21 put out by the united nations are all very bad imo
the problem with most conspiracy theorists is they'd rather believe something totally unprovable they saw on a website than read real things that are just as bad published by the people & organisations doing them
peace

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 08:57
Lol, I don't think these conspiracy theorists even buy half of what they're selling. Its just a way of getting attention. But it does make for an interesting science fiction/cyberpunk video game :cool:

Jerion
3rd Dec 2008, 09:05
Moreover, it makes for some great taglines.

VV

Kahlell
20th Dec 2008, 01:39
Conspiracy Theories, No.
Convoluted, and often distorted history, yes.

I won't get into the nitty gritty details, been there done that, am keeping away from ATS.

- Big business running the show and not the government; yes.

- Oil controlling the world; no.
- Religious zealotry controlling the world (i.e. Presidential Administrations/End Time Fixation-Obsession/Evangelicalism); yes.

- 9/11, a cover up; yes.
- A cover up of a betrayal of saving americans over vast sums of gold in the subsurface vaults.
- Gold which was hastily moved out of the buildings secretly. A secrecy kept by telling workers to return to their offices.
- Once the towers collapsed the metal was quickly shipped to China where the remaining melted steel/gold was sepearted out and was invested in Chinese markets to effectivley and quietly launder our lost gold.
- Meanwhile the USG gets insurance money back on their lost gold due to terrorism.
- USG didn't cause 9/11, did try to prevent it (haphazzarly; yes), but kept quiet about many details because they profited from it while Americans died.

- CIA evil; maybe.
- The real seat of covert power; NSA
- The NSA is far more nefarious, and far more sophisticated than DOD, FEMA, or the CIA. They also possess the most advanced technologies int eh world, and provide inner security for Groom Lake (i.e. Labs/hangers R&D).

- Finally, what nobody seems to care about "factually": the Illuminati.
- They exist, but not as you think, and not how you think.
- Shards vs. Remnants.
- Shards are protecting Humanity. Created by Adolph Knigge when he left the original Bavarian Illuminati, disagreeing with Adam Weishaupt.
- Remnants are those whom survived the siege, who use and extort Humanity to achieve their goals. In more recent years the Bilderburg Group has brought in Remnants as "guns for hire" for their dirty work to remain untouchable and unconnected.
- Return to businessmen/politicians controlling the world.

Normally I don't like talking about things from my past, but here are some interesting data points for any that which to do some research/scripting.

Abram730
28th Dec 2008, 12:53
^^^^ thanks.. I never looked into the Illuminati...

every video I saw that brought them up... was well a few eggs short of a dozen... Using the religous method of research... err yeah

If I had heard some solid Illuminati claims other then there was a group called that, I may of investigated, but I never ran into such information.


I had quite a few 911 arguments in forums.. I learned a lot, as In I think I bumped my IQ up a few points lol

I didn't ever find anybody able to put forward any solid evidence that 911 wasn't an inside job... I did run into quite a bit of circular logic and intensionally misleading arguments...

debunk sites do things like this

conspiracy theorists say that jet fuel can't melt steel.

NIST never claimed that steel melted in the towers.

while factually correct, it ignores all the evidence of melted steel. Debunking sites do tend to use more emotionally charged language as they can't logically prove an impossibility. Also NIST started with the answer to their investigation first and the tried to prove it.. No scientific method there. The answer explained to America during the attacks.

Many people tend to think a debunk, debunks something because thats the name.. I haven't found a good one yet.

People believing the official story doesn't bother me at all though...
I figure this is a free country, with has religious freedom. I think people should be able to have faith based beliefs about 911..

I don't get mad at people who say the government is reading their minds.. so why should I get mad at people for making determination based on faith or emotions...
Not everybody has logic... I mean some people don't like to believe in things that make them feel bad. My grand mother is like that, she has always lived a deluded and happy life.. If something goes wrong she pretends it doesn't exist.

I bet I found an entire town of people that believe the official 911 story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP83Db9XDJ0

Edx
29th Dec 2008, 19:10
I didn't ever find anybody able to put forward any solid evidence that 911 wasn't an inside job... I did run into quite a bit of circular logic and intensionally misleading arguments...

Hope this doesnt sound rude, but i dont really time to really get into this in real depth but i will say that there is a lot of "debunking" information out there that does show most of the arguments 911 Truthers have put forth are wrong. Thats a shame considering I do think there should be a new investigation that will probably never happen now because the name "911 Truth" was used by extremists like Alex Jones that stops all credability as now its only associated with that.


debunk sites do things like this

conspiracy theorists say that jet fuel can't melt steel.

NIST never claimed that steel melted in the towers.

while factually correct, it ignores all the evidence of melted steel.

Ive not actually seen any evidence of melted steel, what people tend to describe is melted METAL. For example the molten metal pouring out one of the floors was apparently a kind of lobby type floor with a lot of non-steel metal that would have melted.

But I do find the argument you mention above an interesting one in its origin. The debunkers say that the 911 Truth guys are lying, because they say there is no melted steel. However the conspiracy theorists were not the first people to mention it. The story first seems to have got started when experts went on record soon afterwards talking about melted steel! Then came the clips from the firefighters talking about molten steel (they are fire fighters not metal experts) and so it snowballed into people shouting "fire doesnt melt steel!!". So its not all their fault.

"Debukers" do annoy the hell out of me sometimes, like for example their debunk of the "free fall" claim. Yes, the 911 Truth guys arent quite correct with their free fall argument, but the debunkers claim its a lie and just not true. However I remember reading that NIST wrote in its report (and Im 90% sure it was about WTC7) that it came down "...at essentially free fall speed".


Debunking sites do tend to use more emotionally charged language as they can't logically prove an impossibility. Also NIST started with the answer to their investigation first and the tried to prove it.. No scientific method there.

Well you have to be carefull you arent falling into the same illogical trap the Intelligent Design Creationists do when talking about what is "scientific", I hear a lot of stuff coming from the 911 Truth guys that stinks of the same nonsence.

InGroove2
29th Dec 2008, 19:19
i'm one who thinks that the official explanation is not enough and highly suspicious...

though "truthers" have alot of problems too, and there are some good answers out there to what "truthers" are trying to prove... and ther are also NOT many good answers for the questions of "truthers".

i think, though, it's pretty hard to say that the official explanation is all that is needed and/or good enough. Seems to me regardless of the voractiy of %100 of the truth movement... official reports on melted metal, building 7, secondary explosions, free fall speed etc etc need to made by independent commissions.

or that FEMA was there the day before, or the record number of PUT OPTIONS reported the trading day before.. and scores of other suspicious happenings surrounding the events. they need to be addressed EVEN if truthers are wrong. the questions need to be answered.

the videos of the plane hitting the pentagon NEEDS to be released in some fashion. explanations for the LACK of wreckage in pennsylvania... etc.

it all needs to be addressed. The silence only begs questions and eggs on the truthers or conspiracy theorists in general.

FreedomForever
30th Dec 2008, 03:38
I find Conspiracy theories entertaining and often think about it myself.I doubt alot of them but their always fun to hear and fun when their proven wrong.

The reasons I like conspiracies so much is because life seems way to simple to be like this that it feels almost very certain that it can't be this simple,maybe is because life is boring for me lol(maybe I need to open my eyes because something in me also acknowledges that life is complicated).

I would love to know the truth but maybe we can't handle the truth,so far the truth has given us this life without that truth who knows what life will be like....All though that truth may be wrong by our cultural views it has given us this life(which I find good under my current cultural views/believes).Allthough this might just be an illusion by the truth lol and bad fortune might come later lol,who knows.

Having said that I wish the truth is actually some good,maybe good old boring simple life where theirs not 3 persons controlling everything lol or atleast those 3 persons do good and have good reason for controlling(good reason to me,theirs no "good" reason)

I would love a true democracy world but is it really a good idea...I mean 50.0001% of people are needed to make the decisions while the the other 49.99% don't have any say,is mob rule really that great of an idea.I love democracy don't get me wrong lol but I question everything and democracy is great,rather have 51% of the people happy then 1 person lol.Every system seems to have some weaknesses and maybe a new concept will fix the other 49% problems lol and of course have different problems..nothing is perfect.

I would love it if they made different govt's where people will choose where they wanted to go(with no conflicts,they will just accept eachother as different concepts)...so if you like communism so much then youll go to commy land and if you like democracy so much then you'll got to democracy land and if you like anarchy then youll will go to the land with no rules.

Yeah I know is not do-able.

I also love the Deus ex Conspiracies of real life like the Afghan one,I never heard of it.

Abram730
31st Dec 2008, 13:44
I don't want to get into an argument.. as I've done my fair share of that.


Thats a shame considering I do think there should be a new investigation that will probably never happen now because the name "911 Truth" was used by extremists like Alex Jones that stops all credability as now its only associated with that.


There go those emotional charged words like "extremists". I acknowledge he is quite emotionally charged and loose with his facts.

Interestingly enough Alex Jones wasn't too much of an extremist for former Chief Economist of the World Bank and Nobel Prize winner Joseph E. Stiglitz to go on his show. But regardless of whether Alex helps or hurts 911 truth, a New York Times/CBS News poll, showed that only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11. Looks like it's the government that has lost all credibility. The government has 100 million secrets and I'm guessing 911 is among them. How exactly can a government expect to be considered Democratic with 100 million classified secrets?




Ive not actually seen any evidence of melted steel, what people tend to describe is melted METAL. For example the molten metal pouring out one of the floors was apparently a kind of lobby type floor with a lot of non-steel metal that would have melted.


That's splitting hairs as the samples that were tested were melted metal some contained iron-aluminum-sulfur, consistent with thermate. Tests on what was most likely melted steel were not tested in a way to prove if they were or were not from steel. They were recorded as iron(steel is 98% or more iron 2% or less carbon).
It doesn't take an expert to tell the difference between molten aluminum and molten steel. Nuances between proportions seem quite irrelevant and even more so with the totality of evidence.

some evidence
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=679_1224093223
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB41i-rpvPw
http://rinf.com/alt-news/911-truth/911-truth-science-behind-the-theory/1851/

The molten metal flow appeared to be coming from a broken support column in the video and in a different place in the often used still photo. Pointing out that it could be other metals doesn't change the evidence from tests, nor have I seen any counter evidence. I propose that, that support column was not anticipated to be damaged in the impact and inadvertently leaked thermate. I suggest that thermate was released into some of the columns.
That video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmuzyWC60eE
thermite to compare it to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrCWLpRc1yM

Heat transfered from the jet fuel to the steel was minimal. A woman is seen leaning on a support column at the impact site. Many people understand how heat spreads out in metal thus lowers temperatures(cpu heatsink). So that momentary fire ball and small pockets of persistent fire were not enough to soften the steel frame. Do you believe the steel was hot enough to soften yet was still cool enough to touch? That the so called "intense heat" was hot enough to cause the entire building to fall apart at every location, yet not hot enough to singe hair? Jet fuel as the only input heat doesn't pan out, just as gravity as the only force doesn't pan out.

Zoom in on the center of the hole to see her.
http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/showbig.asp?photoID=5088

More extensive tests could of been done but an extraordinary and illegal step was taken in that the evidence was removed from the crime scene in a rush.. The steel was shipped off to China and the bodies of the 911 victims were dumped in the landfill along with the rescue workers. They may at some point be sold back to New Yorkers as natural gas.

NIST shouldn't pretend to be scientific if they start with only one acceptable conclusion to prove... the conclusion scripted and announced a few minuets after the towers fell. That's being political, not scientific.

K^2
31st Dec 2008, 14:52
Well you have to be carefull you arent falling into the same illogical trap the Intelligent Design Creationists do when talking about what is "scientific", I hear a lot of stuff coming from the 911 Truth guys that stinks of the same nonsence.
Both sides have problems with that. Even when the problem is attempted to be solved scientifically, certain factors are ignored. Granted, it is impossible not to ignore something. Computations would become impossibly complex otherwise, but it seems that they chose to ignore things that inconvenience their own point of view. And again, I'm talking about both sides here.

To the day, I have not seen analysis that could convince me that a 757 struck Pentagon. There are problems with all simulations done in support. But at the same time, I have not seen a good simulation showing that it could not happen. Nobody has invested sufficient resources to analyze all possibilities and account for all critical parameters. It's a shame, really. Full analysis of impact can be done, and showing that it is impossible to make it work with a 757 striking the wall at that angle at that velocity would be enough to put a very big hole in the official story. Maybe enough to force some re-investigation.

FreedomForever
2nd Jan 2009, 23:20
The history channel had a great 9/11 conspiracy show and the experts pretty muched proved all 9/11 conspiracys wrong.The conspiracy guys in the show weren't experts and looked pretty pathetic,maybe a conspiracy expert should of been brought in.

I think if their is anything the US is lying about is probably that somebody had intel of a possibility attack around those days but failed to do anything since they thought it wasn't a real threat,thats the most I think their hiding.

If it's a bigger conspiracy then it's bigger than the US govt:D

canine
5th Jan 2009, 16:34
Wasn't the History Channel documentary derided by many of the Internet Community, as was another one by BBC, for being a hit piece and mostly biased?

hem dazon 90
7th Jan 2009, 05:43
i thinkthe 9/11 inside job idea is retarted. the onkly conspiricy theory i think is true is rozwell. i do however like conspirisy stories such as the x-files and deus ex

Deus_Ex_Machina
8th Jan 2009, 04:27
One conspiracy theory that really interests me is that H.P. Lovecraft wrote about The Illuminati but disguised them in his writings as "The Ancient Ones".

Does anybody have any additional info on this particular theory?

iWait
8th Jan 2009, 06:23
i thinkthe 9/11 inside job idea is retarted. the onkly conspiricy theory i think is true is rozwell. i do however like conspirisy stories such as the x-files and deus ex

How is rozwell (I'll assume you mean Roswell, as in the city in New Mexico) a conspiracy theory?

Dead-Eye
8th Jan 2009, 07:39
I try not to take anything for granted.

K^2
8th Jan 2009, 08:56
i thinkthe 9/11 inside job idea is retarted. the onkly conspiricy theory i think is true is rozwell. i do however like conspirisy stories such as the x-files and deus ex
So a government that is known to have profited greatly from 9/11, and one that is known to have considered plans of terror strike against its own people to start a war (such propositions haven't been popular, but they have happened) pulling off 9/11 is retarded.

On the other hand, a group of aliens traveling at very least 4 light years, probably much further, to reach Earth, but then somehow managing to crash into the planet, which even is being covered up by the government for the past 50 years is perfectly reasonable?

I'm not saying 9/11 was an inside job (though, I am certain that a lot of facts about it are being covered up), but if you think it is less likely than an alien crash landing, you seriously need to starting fewer sci-fi novels and more serious books.

I think if their is anything the US is lying about is probably that somebody had intel of a possibility attack around those days but failed to do anything since they thought it wasn't a real threat,thats the most I think their hiding.
That we know to be true. Government isn't covering it up. They have released documents that state that they were expecting a terrorist attack. The only thing they are doing is trying to distract media from that. It's part of propaganda, not cover up.

What government is absolutely certainly covering up is specifics of how the attack on Pentagon happened. There are some uncertainties about WTC 1&2 collapse that quite possibly nobody knows anything about for sure. But there are things about Pentagon hit that are being withheld that certain people somewhere know for sure. It is made worst by the fact that a lot of the things in the report simply don't add up. A plane with B757's configuration could not have done the damage described in the official report. Certainly not by following trajectory in the report, and quite possibly at all. Something somewhere has been doctored, and while I have no idea what and where, it leaves possibility of much more sinister plots on the US Govt part.

Except for a few reservations about the arising uncertainty of fate of passengers and crew of flight that struck Pentagon, I would tell you that the most likely sequence of events is thus. Certain people in certain institutions of US Govt find out about the plot to hijack some planes and hit WTC towers. Precisely how much they knew is unknown. They let it happen. But also, they use it to test a few things and hype up the attack by flying a remote drone into Pentagon. Recall that the wing of Pentagon that was struck was just reinforced to withstand against enemy attack. US Govt finds out if techniques used are actually helpful, and they test how well an old refitted military aircraft works as a guided missile. I'm going to let others speculate on whether something was done to WTC9 as well.

Of course, the missing passengers make things complicated. Best hypothesis I can put forward is that it was shot down after being hijacked. In that case, so was United 93 in all likelihood. Order to shoot these flights down would not be unreasonable. After WTC was hit, keeping other hijacked planes in the air would be a liability that could cost hundreds more lives. Nobody along the chain of command would question an order to shoot these planes down. All these people would want to stay quiet as well. Partially because revealing that US Govt shot down own planes would demoralize public, as much sense as it made, and partially because of being afraid of what said public might do to them. Here, assumption is made that people responsible for shooting down flights and people who knew this was going to happen are entirely different groups.

If that was already the case, with two planes missing and a cover up for it already in progress of being set up, there is absolutely no harm and a lot to gain from dropping a drone into an unoccupied section of the Pentagon. It goes along very well with everything that has been happening afterwards. Patriot act. War in Afghanistan. War in Iraq. A government prepared to do all that is likely to be prepared to pull of all of the above as well.

ilweran
8th Jan 2009, 10:41
My favourite conspiracy theory is that Princess Diana was murdered because she wouldn't marry Bill Clinton - I can't remember all the details of it now, but I know it was something to do with the Merovingian bloodline and Diana being descended from Jesus.

I should point out that I don't believe this myself, I just like conspiracy theories, 'alternate' history books and other nonsense (The Sphinx was built by amphibious aliens from Sirius, the moon is artificial, hollow and built by time travelling humans, the world will end in Dec.2012 - we don't have much time to invent that time machine), Robert Anton Wilson, X-Files, Deus Ex. I detest the Da Vinci Code and think it's badly written crap, so I do have some standards.

gamer0004
8th Jan 2009, 16:31
So a government that is known to have profited greatly from 9/11, and one that is known to have considered plans of terror strike against its own people to start a war (such propositions haven't been popular, but they have happened) pulling off 9/11 is retarded.


I have to agree. Governments always try to work as efficiently as possible. Destroying the Twin Towers actually cost them a hell of a lot and it damaged the US economy. I think that if the government would've planned it they would've destroyed a suburb or the Empire State Building. Same result. Besides, how would they have keeped it a secret? There would be so many people involved... And it would be especially difficult if you attack your own governmential buildings at the same time. The risk would be too high. The chances that people will hear from it are pretty high, and who would want to keep working for the US government?

Of course, that doesn't have to mean the US administration didn't actually know of the attacks. It could be that they decided not to intervene so they could use the attack as an excuse.

ilweran
8th Jan 2009, 16:39
Besides, how would they have keeped it a secret? There would be so many people involved...

This is the big argument against a lot of conspiracy theories. So many people would have to be involved that it's highly unlikely that they'd all keep quiet. Of course the very fact that we are discussing these things could be as a result of somebody involved leaking information and the way conspiracy theorists are dismissed as crazy is just a convenient way of discrediting them...

This is one of the things I like about conspracies, any evidence against them is evidence that they exist.

K^2
8th Jan 2009, 17:12
I have to agree. Governments always try to work as efficiently as possible. Destroying the Twin Towers actually cost them a hell of a lot and it damaged the US economy. I think that if the government would've planned it they would've destroyed a suburb or the Empire State Building. Same result.
That's a very limited argument. Twin Towers are a symbol. One that is much better recognized abroad than empire state building. Also, the attacks hit Twin Towers and Pentagon - the Economy and Military of United States. Two arms of an empire. There is strong symbolism there. Empire state is just a building of historical interest. People would not have cared quite as much.

And as far as losses to economy, do you think people in US who benefited from 9/11 felt any loss due to the WTC towers being gone? Not at all. They gained power, and that is of far more interest to them.

DCJenton
8th Jan 2009, 17:25
I belive that 9/11 was made up. Not real terrorist attack, but the explosives there were set. I saw a documentary about it. If a building that size would be destroyed it would collapse like a pancake tower and the metal should still be there. But in slowmotion you CAN see smaller explosions lower the source where the plane hit it. Roswell was A) An experimental craft and after its crash they wanted to hide the inhumanic using of animals (theres a theory that monkeys piloted that flying object) B) Real alien ship. And Area 51 DOES exist. Just I don't think that there are any Alien stuff in there. And I saw that the whole deus ex 1 was based on the conspiracy stories. Illuminati did exist dunno if nowadays but they did and Galileo were one of them.

K^2
8th Jan 2009, 18:11
The way the towers collapsed was fine. If several of the top floors of such structure give, this is exactly how it should fall. The "explosions" on lower floors are caused by air and dust being forced out through windows as the whole thing collapses. It happens during real demolitions, and even from floors were charges are not set. It should also fall straight down and in near free-fall. Once the top floors gain momentum, it's like trying to stop a brick with a tissue paper. It will come straight down and very fast. Again, controlled demolitions use that, which is why it does look rather similar.

The question remains if such a collapse could be triggered by fire, though. It has never happened before. Collapse of WTC 7 is also a bit odd.

J.CDenton
8th Jan 2009, 19:35
The 11/9 has been a subject of numerous theories since some guys started to figure that it may have been a tool to start a war which ultimate goal was oil. I'll try to give my personnal explanations about the fact and its aftermath (I mean they way it's been used and seen).

We've been notified on French TV about the WTC Destruction after a very few times it happened. in fact the main TV programs which were running at the moment immediately stopped to show about the attack. At first I thought it was some kind of Blockbuster B-Serie movie, what we call "Films Catastrophe" in France and which is the term used for films involving natural/non-natural/surnatural disasters. So a few minutes later I realized that it was not the case and it was real: the WTC was on the ground and days later Bin Laden and Al Quaida, which remained unknown before, came under the spotlights.

At the moments everybody here was like "We must help Americans". At the time I was already chatting on US Message Boards so of course I said that I truly supported American peoples. I personnaly never hated Americans, considering that Americanophobia, Francophobia, US-Bashing, French-Bashing and all that kind of stuff are not the way we should act, even if we disagree with each other which have been the case for me. Personnaly if I've disagree with some US political facts, I also strongly disagreed with several French actions. I never considered France as superior or better than any other country. Just because we have a past and made several things doesn't give us more right. Also I hate when some peoples speak with despise about USA. One teacher said one day that USA are ignorant and cultureless peoples. I had to remind the guy about Edgar Poe, Lovecraft, Mark Twain, Frederic Remington, Benjamin Franklin, that USA are a young country with its own culture and its own way to see things, that we have to respect that and especially that we were happy to see the Ignorants Morons coming to save our asses and give us cash during the World Wars.

After a while came the idea of a second assault in Irak which I thought was ridiculous. Since for me there was nothing to do in Irak : no army, no danger. of course there was the big bastard Saddam. But was he dangerous at the time? No more than some Kim Il Sung in North Korea or, let's have a bigger point of view, the communists leaders of China. And what about Putin in Russia? The dictators in Africa? Cuba and all that stuff? And started the famous Irakian Crisis with the clash beetween our two countries. We laughed a lot when we saw Collen Powell and his tube full of Antrhax powder in UNO which in fact was sugar (after all could a really serious guy take the risk to bring anthrax in a place such the UNO?) or the targets on photo satellites, supposed to be Missiles Tubes which in fact ended to be just some local places which where everything except for military use. And of course there was the Francophobia since we refused to join the war because we just found no reasons to get there. Then every stupid cliché about France went out: we lost world war II again (why always WWII? We lost other wars after all. Can't they just change?), we had no army, we were traitors and cowards and all that stuff. The main thing in it I found really insulting was that picture on that paper of the American Graveyard in Normandy with the word SACRIFICE written on the page. I was really furious at the moment since we never forgot about the G.I's who died on the beaches in Omaha and Utah and always pay respect and honor them each years. At the moment, and still today, I strongly believed that the U.S government (and the neo-cons around it) where just using their deads, not only the 9/11 dead but in that part the WWII deads, as a way to pressure its allies and justify their interventions which disgusted me since I never believed that nor the WWII GI's, nor the 9/11 victims wished to have their memories used as a mean of war.

Of course then started all the theories about the "Truth behind the truth". France being never honest when speaking about USA and especially in time of tensions always showed the "good stuff" and what France wanted the French to know. As USA have being insulting with France, France always tried to describe worst points in USA. Texas for example is a place full of Racist and fascits rednecks with no culture, who only loves country, death penalty and claims for war for nothing. While I've been meeting a friend there which I consider to be amongst my best friends. Also as I met some peoples on the Internet, I used to speak a lot with American peoples from every parts of the country, no distinction. Of course we spoke about 9/11 and war and of course we disagreed sometimes, even clashed on hot points like the involvment in war and the Bush administration policy. I have friends which are democrats or republicans, voted for Al Gore or Bush, and never complained about them, even when we strongly disagreed.

So of course the 9/11 theories came on the table. The famous document I've seen on Youtube showing for example the explosions on the very first floor on the WTC was the biggest element I've been given about the conspiracies theories involving 9/11. But I always reminded sceptic. I know that conspiracies theories love to use a lot of informations and elements to blurr the truth. So in fact what was true? Could the government have really planned the attack? Or let it happening? A report said that the CIA known about a possible terrorist attack but has been never heard by the government. Some peoples said that it could have been planned from the Pentagon and that, to hide the truth, one of the hijacked planes was crashed close to it to be finally explained a a missed attempt to destroy it. Finally I prefered to stay a bit far from all these theories since there were too much elements to have a real idea. All I knew (and believe) is that:
-There were innocent peoples who died
-The government role is unclear
-9/11 was used as a way of pressure to justify the war in Irak which was just for some oil

I however believe in something in the shadows playing the puppetmasters in the world. Of course I know not enough stuff about that so I cannot say really how it could look like. Of course that's because when you have somebody playing puppetmaster, his first rule is to stay out of the light. So we can only immagine what it can be. But lobbying is strong in the world, especially in France (which is today a totaly destroyed country for me) and I don't believe that our government really hold the power. I believe that we have to look around them, finds the head behind the Head and watch again behind these heads until we finally find the top guys who really play to the game of "World masters". But I think also that that kind of games has been played since a long time.

gamer0004
8th Jan 2009, 20:00
That's a very limited argument. Twin Towers are a symbol. One that is much better recognized abroad than empire state building. Also, the attacks hit Twin Towers and Pentagon - the Economy and Military of United States. Two arms of an empire. There is strong symbolism there. Empire state is just a building of historical interest. People would not have cared quite as much.

And as far as losses to economy, do you think people in US who benefited from 9/11 felt any loss due to the WTC towers being gone? Not at all. They gained power, and that is of far more interest to them.

First of all, the attacks did cost them money. Stock markets went down pretty bad in the days after the attack.
Secondly: don't think the Twin Towers were more symbolic than the Empire State Building. Before 9/11 nobody in my direct environment knew the WTC in NY, but everybody did know the Empire State building.
Besides, even if the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were more symbolic, it wouldn't matter anyway. The government wouldn't go for "symbolic", but for "efficient". Terrorists would go for symbolic. The Empire State building or a random suburb would have been enough, and would have saved them a lot of money.
And they didn't actually gain power. They had always been able to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. Public opion was the only thing that needed change, and that could've been easily realized by other means.

K^2
8th Jan 2009, 20:28
Afghanistan and Iraq invasions are nothing. Small change compared to everything that has happened since 9/11. Patriot act alone is worth more than both wars combined. Prior to 9/11 people in US had rights. Now, if you are suspected of terrorism, you can be kept in prison without a trial indefinitely. What do the other rights mean when this is the case?

And you think that people who orchestrated this would be turned off by the fact that their stocks would go down? Or that a few thousand lives would perish? It's like complaining that taking a queen cost you a pawn in the process. Wake up!

Again, I'm not saying that 9/11 was an inside job, but if you think that there is anything but fear of being caught that prevents this sort of thing from happening, you really have no idea what's going on at the top.

SageSavage
8th Jan 2009, 20:54
Serious conspiracy theorists should be amazed by all the experts and politicians who currently are, as a reaction to the worldwide financial crisis, demanding some kind of one world government...

K^2
8th Jan 2009, 21:22
Which is absolutely the worst time to have a single government. Diversity is pretty much the only thing that prevented a total economic collapse this time around.

SageSavage
8th Jan 2009, 21:37
They argue that the global markets became too complex to keep track with them without a (re-)centralized overseeing organization.

In my opinion the whole globalization is the wrong way - pretty much because of the same reasons... A democracy, for example, works best with small groups of people. People basically need to content themselves with smaller and poorer but more healthy systems and a much lower rate of progression instead.

A centralized world government is pretty much the ultimate dystopia.

FrankCSIS
9th Jan 2009, 00:54
One of the biggest flaws of capitalism was to assume that companies must always grow larger and centralise the means of production, which has ultimately proven to be wrong. Each enterprise has an ideal size based on numerous factors, and so do countries and governments.

The only way to have a reasonable one-world government would be to heavily decentralise it, which pretty much destroys the purpose in the first place, not to mention the complete loss of diversity and adaptability that comes with it. It's absurd, useless and potentially very dangerous for the individual.

canine
9th Jan 2009, 01:18
No, the attack on WTC does no financial damage on the "elites". The stock market did fall but you should have noticed that someone did profit from the incident. They were first reported as being Muslim fundamentalists but the investigations stopped soon after it seems that the link is much closer to home. Recall that in the recent financial crisis, as the banks went down, the affected CEOs packed their bags, got their substantial final pay package and left discredited but rich. I have little doubts that they will be re-employed as the management of another world famous company soon. Who suffered? The regular employees. The elites still hold their expensive end-of-year parties, oblivious to the damage done to the economy, for they are not affected at all. Thus it is not true that the planners of the 9/11 attack will lose out in financial terms. They always have their own ways to earn money in any situation.

The only problem then is why should the US establishment plan/allow such an attack to happen, if it will plunge their country into trouble? If you read any conspiracy theory, it is often mentioned that these people do not work for their countries, but their masters who care only about themselves. They are globalists and do not have operations only in 1 country. The difference in perception means this will never come into most people's mind.

Terrorists do not go for symbolic targets. They go for maximum fear(not necessary damage). On the other hand, "11" keeps appearing on that fateful day, the attack in Spain(911 days after 9/11, wow), and London(7/7), so I guess the Muslim fundamentalists must like numerology a lot.

Deus_Ex_Machina
9th Jan 2009, 01:36
I have to agree. Governments always try to work as efficiently as possible. Destroying the Twin Towers actually cost them a hell of a lot and it damaged the US economy. I think that if the government would've planned it they would've destroyed a suburb or the Empire State Building. Same result. Besides, how would they have keeped it a secret? There would be so many people involved... And it would be especially difficult if you attack your own governmential buildings at the same time. The risk would be too high. The chances that people will hear from it are pretty high, and who would want to keep working for the US government?

Of course, that doesn't have to mean the US administration didn't actually know of the attacks. It could be that they decided not to intervene so they could use the attack as an excuse.

If the U.S. Government is so efficient, how come it took them 5 days to get water to the Superdome in New Orleans?

iWait
9th Jan 2009, 02:13
If the U.S. Government is so efficient, how come it took them 5 days to get water to the Superdome in New Orleans?

Because
A. FEMA is not allowed to intervene within state operations without the state governors consent.
B. The governor of Illinois did not allow FEMA to intervene.
C. FEMA shouldn't have intervened according to the original doctrines outlining FEMA's powers.

SageSavage
9th Jan 2009, 02:26
If the politicians in Washington had reacted like responsible people, the whole thing wouldn't have turned out to be one of the most shocking events of the century. That's a fact and still only a very little part of the disaster the Bush-administration is/was. Politicians reacting like this to humanitarian catastrophies in their own country could very well be capable of "Make it happen"-stuff as well, if you ask me.

Jerion
9th Jan 2009, 02:44
Because
A. FEMA is not allowed to intervene within state operations without the state governors consent.
B. The governor of Illinois did not allow FEMA to intervene.
C. FEMA shouldn't have intervened according to the original doctrines outlining FEMA's powers.

Illinois? I might be forgetting something, but last time I checked New Orleans is in Louisiana. :scratch:

iWait
9th Jan 2009, 05:19
Illinois? I might be forgetting something, but last time I checked New Orleans is in Louisiana. :scratch:

**** my bad lol, was thinking of something else while typing.

GmanPro
9th Jan 2009, 05:30
The question remains if such a collapse could be triggered by fire, though. It has never happened before. Collapse of WTC 7 is also a bit odd.

I watched a documentary about this. They said that when the plane smacked into the building, all of the anti-fire foam coating the girders was blown clean away. And then the jet fuel proceeded to fuel the super hot fires until the collapse. I guess that when they were being designed, no body thought that there would be a jet-fuel-fire all up in their building. :hmm:

Ghostface
9th Jan 2009, 05:44
I havent read this whole thread yet but I agree with K^2 that the official report has significant holes in it. It was good to see a perspective of someone who studies physics. I may put up a few of his posts at a cyberpunk site i go to that had the same topic.

Also remember war is a business, and arms manufacturers also stand to profit from it. Not blaming them for any wars; just saying that motive exits to want warfare. Also the 9/11 was used as an excuse for the patriot act and the stripping of rights of the American people.

Remember the CIA has been involved in drug trafficking, so one can never be sure about the truth.

SageSavage
9th Jan 2009, 12:39
People interested in conspiracies should search the headlines for developments in the Turkish "Ergenekon"-case. It's growing epic.

"Yet Another Wave of “Ergenekon” Prosecution: 37 Detained"
http://bianet.org/english/kategori/english/111806/yet-another-wave-of-ergenekon-prosecution-37-detained

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Ergenekon/

K^2
9th Jan 2009, 14:53
A centralized world government is pretty much the ultimate dystopia.
Absolutely. There will be a time for centralized Earth Gov. But this time must come no sooner than a creation of multiple self sustaining colonies elsewhere. Luna, Mars, asteroid belt. If the Earth fails then, at least the colonies can go on.

gamer0004
9th Jan 2009, 15:47
Afghanistan and Iraq invasions are nothing. Small change compared to everything that has happened since 9/11. Patriot act alone is worth more than both wars combined. Prior to 9/11 people in US had rights. Now, if you are suspected of terrorism, you can be kept in prison without a trial indefinitely. What do the other rights mean when this is the case?

And you think that people who orchestrated this would be turned off by the fact that their stocks would go down? Or that a few thousand lives would perish? It's like complaining that taking a queen cost you a pawn in the process. Wake up!

Again, I'm not saying that 9/11 was an inside job, but if you think that there is anything but fear of being caught that prevents this sort of thing from happening, you really have no idea what's going on at the top.

Of course, but the risk of getting caught (=fear of being caught) would be way too big.
Besides, you're doing the conspiracy theorist thing again* you're just trying to disprove some arguments. Finding symbolics. While that sounds convincing, if you look at the big picture it simply can't have bene the case.

EDIT: *this is not meant personally, just making the comparison with your few arguments here and the arguments of those theorists, I did not mean that your arguments are always crap or something.

K^2
9th Jan 2009, 17:44
Of course, but the risk of getting caught (=fear of being caught) would be way too big.
But that's the whole point. All I'm saying is that this is the only real risk these people have. It's weighing the benefit of success against risk of being caught. Nothing else enters into equation. Not the cost, not the moral things. Just that.

And this is the reason I don't get into who done what where things. I don't know who would have risked what. Some people are just crazy. But certain things require support of many people. Could enough crazy people get together and decide to pull something like that off? That's for psychologists and sociologists to analyze. Way out of my field.

What I'm interested in is what could have happened and how it could have been achieved. I don't care what actually happened. That's for historians to figure out. And if you want truth, you should talk to theologians and philosophers. They are the ones who trade in truths. Half-truths are half-off.

Anyways, what I want to know is did the United States have resources to carry out 9/11 and set up a cover up. There are a lot of inconsistencies that make it difficult to believe possible. On the other hand, if you change the question to could the government have been involved on some level, then the answer is very different. I can think of a scenario where only a dozen people would have the full picture, and the few dozen other people who are involved would have great personal interest in staying quiet and thinking it is the right thing to do at the same time. This reduces risk of being caught to a comfortable enough minimum. I don't know if any of such scenarios took place, but some of them could have happened. And thus my interest in continued discussion.

InGroove2
9th Jan 2009, 18:39
First of all, the attacks did cost them money. Stock markets went down pretty bad in the days after the attack.
Secondly: don't think the Twin Towers were more symbolic than the Empire State Building. Before 9/11 nobody in my direct environment knew the WTC in NY, but everybody did know the Empire State building.
Besides, even if the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were more symbolic, it wouldn't matter anyway. The government wouldn't go for "symbolic", but for "efficient". Terrorists would go for symbolic. The Empire State building or a random suburb would have been enough, and would have saved them a lot of money.
And they didn't actually gain power. They had always been able to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. Public opion was the only thing that needed change, and that could've been easily realized by other means.

you don't really have an argument here... and the speculations here are pretty thin.

Mainly my problem here is the concept that "the government did it" as oppose to people in the gov't orchestrating it, which is two different things altogether.

there are many many people who profited off of 9/11... if you watch the documentary "the corporation" (which i highly highly recommend), there's a day trader on there who is quoted as saying that his reaction to 9/11 was "i wonder what gold is doing now!?" (with excitment).

also the record number of bets the market would drop placed the day before 9.11.

i don't think the gov't did it. but i'm pretty sure it wasn't a surprise and i'm pretty sure, based on the research out there, that the official story is weak and a cover up for something pretty huge.

and for you to say that the US Gov could have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq pre 9/11, is absurd. Explain on what premise they could have done that?

Look at what the "fear factor" in America has done for the power of the executive branch? Pre 911, there's no way America would have stood for ANY kind of war or invasion. there HAS to be a catalyzing event for Americans to support any military action of this size.

it's well known that the gulf of Tonkin incident was a fake and that there was prior knowledge of pearl harbor, that the gov't lied to the media about Guatemala in the 70's, that they were communists ready start problems so that we could go and bomb them simply to get our banana business back.

If you look at American intervention in Latin America, you'll see the kind of America that would do drastic things to people to serve it's purpose.

let's face it, the American purpose is to have control, as much as possible. to BE the superpower. To control oil as much as possible, to control resources, to have the military might to subdue ANYONE... we were losing that power, have been for a long time.. Saddam before we attacked, had put his oil in Euros.. that is so that you could only buy oil with euros, which crippled our buying power. guess what happened after we got rid of him? we reversed that.

this isn't a mystery or a conspiracy "theory". this is how it works when gov'ts around the world are competing against eachother. this is animal survival of the fittest at it's most dangerous and arbitrary.

When will people realize that the majority of us have given all our power as individuals and communities to corporations and government just so we can have luxuries, tv, cable, video games etc. alot of conspiracy guys say "GOV't has succeeded in making us complacent". well, we are complacent, most of us will not riot and rise up because we are complacent, we're too scared of what will happen to our daily lives.

but the government didn't do that TO us, it's a result of money-lust. a result of debt. of the idea that a federal bank can make money and just decide out of the blue that it has the authority to make us pay it back WITH interest and we just believe it. we just go along with it. God doesn't make money. the COSMOS don't make money.

money and power and govt' ar a product of humans giving their power away to other people, and allowing those people to take up arms to maintain the power we've given them.

think about this.

Guns, bombs and weapons are made by humans. we decided to make weapons on such a scale as to threaten humanity as a whole. this is the reality we've created for ourselves.... so yes.. of course... i believe that Gov't's are the ones who have the power to do something like this.. because we've given it to them, it was inevitable.

it's so sad to me that humans haven't yet found a way to get over the fact that no one has any real power over us. the only power is nature. the one thing that every human is subject to is nature. If we were to humble ourselves to the only true power, we could stop fighting and start trying to save the earth.

what would happen if all gun factories on earth, and weapon factories et al, were closed down and there were no more weapons? what would happen?


PS. Imagine now how religion plays its part in making people feel powerless... it conditions us to submission to authority.

SageSavage
9th Jan 2009, 20:20
I believe what happened in 2001 resembles the plot of a "Father Ted"-episode called
"Kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicking_Bishop_Brennan_up_the_Arse).
(You might be able to find this episode on YouTube)

iWait
10th Jan 2009, 04:41
[QUOTE=it's so sad to me that humans haven't yet found a way to get over the fact that no one has any real power over us. the only power is nature. the one thing that every human is subject to is nature. If we were to humble ourselves to the only true power, we could stop fighting and start trying to save the earth.

what would happen if all gun factories on earth, and weapon factories et al, were closed down and there were no more weapons? what would happen?


PS. Imagine now how religion plays its part in making people feel powerless... it conditions us to submission to authority.[/QUOTE]

Actually, we have been fighting nature, and winning (atleast for our purposes) since the conception of the human race. We've leveled acres to build cities, paved over miles of grass to build roads, and use natural resources for our continuation and expansion. Yes, we are powerless to stop a hurricane, but given the means we know how, and we're not defenseless against hurricanes. The only real problem we may face in the future is a geomagnetic shift of the polls. Then we're all ****ed.
Might I ask what you mean by saving the Earth though? Confused as to what you mean.

As to what would happen if there were no more weapons, I'll tell you this. Humans have been murdering each other and whatnot waaay before we started using guns (or even spears). If Fred the Thief wants your wallet, the only difference is he'll grab a rock and brain you instead of grab a gun and shoot you. The act of braining you will actually make him stronger for future brainings, letting him brain his next victim easier. If there were no more weapons, the country with the largest population would have the most military might, making China the new world leader (India is much too passive). Though the first thing that would happen is that I would grab a couple water bottles and some chemicals I won't name here for home security purposes, lest of course the wind blows my way, then I'm pretty much screwed.

As for the part about religion... That Isn't exactly true any more, in modern times the Christians have basically said "God loves you do whatever you want you are Jeebus Child you are part God you can do anything just believe in Him yeah!" Though your statement would be true 500 years ago (Or even 40 now that I think about it). The times where even Jeebus would send you to hell if you didn't flog yourself for your sins.

InGroove2
10th Jan 2009, 06:20
Actually, we have been fighting nature, and winning (atleast for our purposes) since the conception of the human race. We've leveled acres to build cities, paved over miles of grass to build roads, and use natural resources for our continuation and expansion. Yes, we are powerless to stop a hurricane, but given the means we know how, and we're not defenseless against hurricanes. The only real problem we may face in the future is a geomagnetic shift of the polls. Then we're all ****ed.
Might I ask what you mean by saving the Earth though? Confused as to what you mean.

As to what would happen if there were no more weapons, I'll tell you this. Humans have been murdering each other and whatnot waaay before we started using guns (or even spears). If Fred the Thief wants your wallet, the only difference is he'll grab a rock and brain you instead of grab a gun and shoot you. The act of braining you will actually make him stronger for future brainings, letting him brain his next victim easier. If there were no more weapons, the country with the largest population would have the most military might, making China the new world leader (India is much too passive). Though the first thing that would happen is that I would grab a couple water bottles and some chemicals I won't name here for home security purposes, lest of course the wind blows my way, then I'm pretty much screwed.

As for the part about religion... That Isn't exactly true any more, in modern times the Christians have basically said "God loves you do whatever you want you are Jeebus Child you are part God you can do anything just believe in Him yeah!" Though your statement would be true 500 years ago (Or even 40 now that I think about it). The times where even Jeebus would send you to hell if you didn't flog yourself for your sins.


wait.. we've been fighting nature and winning? I really am baffled by this. yes we can resist hurricane's etc... but that's such a small small thing compared to what's being done to the earth as a result of what we've done to "resist nature". the forces that will come into play as a result of this resistence will far outweigh the damage a hurricane could do over a long span of time.

but still i think you're missing the point, the bigger picture to it... nature includes our bodies, biology, animals, pollution, the air, the water, genetic mutation and on and on and on up the philisophical chain up to technology as a part of nature. nature as in, everything and how it emerges, constant change and movement.

there is no end to the universe...or is there? will time stop and everything will cease to move? once we're gone, something else will take our place. there's nothing to WIN here. ther's no game, there's no competition. it's just survival. and in a world with the kind of technology we have, we could in theory exist without a monetary system.... we could exist simply for survival of the species, which, given how bad a shape the earth is, will require humans to serve the greater good of sustaining this planet.

the religion thing. i don't want to get that far into it... but i really think you're off base on this. YES that kind of thinking which you reference does exist, but not on any kind of meaningful scale, this is NOT an antiquated notion.


also, my question about what would happen if gun factories closed?? your answer is waek sauce cause clearly there was a larger philisophical point there. (also not just gun factories, but the weapons industry altogether... i mean can you honestly justify the concept of having a billion dollar industry for the best ways to murder tons of people??) sure people might resort to hand to hand combat more, but really therre's no way that's worse than the potential for mass murder with ONE bomb or by bio weapons? for the sake of us all, i'd rather see china and America literally Duke it out than... say... "Nuke it out"

there's absolutely NO WAY to logically denounce bio weapons and nukes and then say that guns and bazookas are justifiable... cause if you ahve a bazooka it's just a matter of time before the bio weapon or nuke comes around. it's justification for the same thing. so go ahead and tell me that you dig nukes and see nothing wrong with making a bomb that will give people the plague which is then released into nature uncontrolled!

i know i'm naive... but the way i see it, everything great has been built or catalyzed by a naive dream or by accident...

you can't do anyhting great by staying within the normal perspective of what's "possible"

Jerion
10th Jan 2009, 06:26
How, exactly, does Conspiracy Theories -> Fighting Nature? :scratch:

Get back on topic...:)

FrankCSIS
10th Jan 2009, 06:45
cause if you ahve a bazooka it's just a matter of time before the bio weapon or nuke comes around.

Not to contradict anything else you've said but careful with this specific slippery slope. The need for nuke is what brought nuke into our world. The belief, dogma even, of the necessity to have an ultimate weapon for theese specific situation and conditions in foreign relationships brought on the development and proliferation of nukes. The strategies and beliefs have since changed as well. Even if the technology had been known before it wouldn't necessarily have been developed or used prior to those circumstances. There's little to no connotation or logical evolution between sticks and stones, guns, tanks and nukes. The nature of the tools are the same, but each of them were developped for different reasons, and beliefs, and one does not trump the other.

Philosophically of course, that's another question. No one here will solve the questions of war tonight.

No who feels like giving us a conspiracy theory on weapons dealers? :D

iWait
10th Jan 2009, 07:26
wait.. we've been fighting nature and winning? I really am baffled by this. yes we can resist hurricane's etc... but that's such a small small thing compared to what's being done to the earth as a result of what we've done to "resist nature". the forces that will come into play as a result of this resistence will far outweigh the damage a hurricane could do over a long span of time.


If you're going to generalize nature to such an encompassing definition, there is no point in even talking about it. But I meant nature as the natural forces encompassing geological and atmospherical phenomena on Earth, as well as the natural patterns and systems. If you would kindly re-read my post, you would see that I wrote that we are winning for our purposes. In my opinion "our purposes" are the continuation of humanity's civilization, as well as minimization of the loss of human life, as well as damage to structures. And what do you mean by "compared to what's being done to the earth as a result of what we've done to "resist nature". the forces that will come into play as a result of this resistence will far outweigh the damage a hurricane could do over a long span of time." Do you believe that we are damaging the Earth (which we aren't), and as some divine retribution, God's going to have Nature kill us? There is no global conspiracy to kill the planet you know.


there is no end to the universe...or is there? will time stop and everything will cease to move? once we're gone, something else will take our place. there's nothing to WIN here. ther's no game, there's no competition. it's just survival. and in a world with the kind of technology we have, we could in theory exist without a monetary system.... we could exist simply for survival of the species, which, given how bad a shape the earth is, will require humans to serve the greater good of sustaining this planet.

I'm not an expert (K^2 seems to know more about stuff like this), but this is how I understand it:
Yes, there is an end to the universe. Everything is finite, as showed by some of the most basic scientific principals. At the end of the universe space-time stops, which means there is no space or time after that point. Therefore there is nothing. You cannot exist in nothing, therefore if you cross into nothing you either cease to exist or convert the nothing around you (or the nothingness you occupy) to something.

Not really sure about what you thought about what I said about religion. It was very brief, and It seems you may have misread it.


there's absolutely NO WAY to logically denounce bio weapons and nukes and then say that guns and bazookas are justifiable... cause if you ahve a bazooka it's just a matter of time before the bio weapon or nuke comes around. it's justification for the same thing. so go ahead and tell me that you dig nukes and see nothing wrong with making a bomb that will give people the plague which is then released into nature uncontrolled!

I never denounced bio weapons, or nukes. I take them for what they are. Attaching emotion and feelings to inanimate is stupid and dangerous. Look it all the people who think if they own a gun it's gonna try and murder you and yours. Yes, I dig nukes and see nothing wrong with making a bomb that will give people the plague which is then released into nature uncontrolled. Aside from that, biological weapons don't give you the plague, most biological weapons are akin to messing up your chemicals while cleaning your bathtub.
Biological weapons and nukes do not do anything on their own, it requires a fairly specific series of events to make them harmful to anybody. And they aren't released into nature uncontrolled. Again, there is no conspiracy theory against nature here.



you can't do anyhting great by staying within the normal perspective of what's "possible"

If you don't stay within the normal perspective of what's possible, you'll end up like Van Gogh.

Also, has anyone heard of the conspiracy that Mengele was harbored by the British government after the war in return for conducting further experiments in a secret facility or something? Can't remember where I heard it, anyone know anything about it?

InGroove2
10th Jan 2009, 08:09
If you're going to generalize nature to such an encompassing definition, there is no point in even talking about it. But I meant nature as the natural forces encompassing geological and atmospherical phenomena on Earth, as well as the natural patterns and systems. If you would kindly re-read my post, you would see that I wrote that we are winning for our purposes. In my opinion "our purposes" are the continuation of humanity's civilization, as well as minimization of the loss of human life, as well as damage to structures. And what do you mean by "compared to what's being done to the earth as a result of what we've done to "resist nature". the forces that will come into play as a result of this resistence will far outweigh the damage a hurricane could do over a long span of time." Do you believe that we are damaging the Earth (which we aren't), and as some divine retribution, God's going to have Nature kill us? There is no global conspiracy to kill the planet you know.



I'm not an expert (K^2 seems to know more about stuff like this), but this is how I understand it:
Yes, there is an end to the universe. Everything is finite, as showed by some of the most basic scientific principals. At the end of the universe space-time stops, which means there is no space or time after that point. Therefore there is nothing. You cannot exist in nothing, therefore if you cross into nothing you either cease to exist or convert the nothing around you (or the nothingness you occupy) to something.

Not really sure about what you thought about what I said about religion. It was very brief, and It seems you may have misread it.



I never denounced bio weapons, or nukes. I take them for what they are. Attaching emotion and feelings to inanimate is stupid and dangerous. Look it all the people who think if they own a gun it's gonna try and murder you and yours. Yes, I dig nukes and see nothing wrong with making a bomb that will give people the plague which is then released into nature uncontrolled. Aside from that, biological weapons don't give you the plague, most biological weapons are akin to messing up your chemicals while cleaning your bathtub.
Biological weapons and nukes do not do anything on their own, it requires a fairly specific series of events to make them harmful to anybody. And they aren't released into nature uncontrolled. Again, there is no conspiracy theory against nature here.




If you don't stay within the normal perspective of what's possible, you'll end up like Van Gogh.

Also, has anyone heard of the conspiracy that Mengele was harbored by the British government after the war in return for conducting further experiments in a secret facility or something? Can't remember where I heard it, anyone know anything about it?

wow. we better get back on topic, cause i can see this is going nowhere. (did i say there was a conspiracy against nature?) i guess if i were to try and breakdown the reason why this conversation is going nowhere it would come down to the fact that i simply don't believe in the concept of some humans truly being enemies of some other humans. i believe int he whole humanity is ONE thing and that conflict arises from a... to put it in an all encompassing way... misunderstanding of the oneness idea.

i've heard of the mengele conspiracy. a similar one exists for the Japanese doctors of unit 731 (a military unit that did vivisections and other monstrous experiements on innocent people).

Jerion
10th Jan 2009, 08:22
Enough about the environment and those weapons and such.

Get this thread back on track about conspiracies or it's locked.

And no, there is no conspiracy to lock threads going off topic. :whistle:

iWait
10th Jan 2009, 08:41
Enough about the environment and those weapons and such.

Get this thread back on track about conspiracies or it's locked.

And no, there is no conspiracy to lock threads going off topic. :whistle:

I have evidence that there is. I just don't have it with me right now.

:thumbsup: Fight the Man! :thumbsup:

Jerion
10th Jan 2009, 09:38
^^ :D

But...I think I work for the Man! :o

Don't hurt me Goran!

InGroove2
10th Jan 2009, 16:17
Enough about the environment and those weapons and such.

Get this thread back on track about conspiracies or it's locked.

And no, there is no conspiracy to lock threads going off topic. :whistle:

ok, but Mengele is the tie in, for sure... everything we were talking about was directly related to conspiracy theory AND deus ex

if you count the idea of man and machine interfacing like JCDenton (technology as a n extension of nature...)

ok ok, it's stretch, but it's there.


Back to the original topic. there's alot wrong with the story of 911...

I'd like to see DX3 address that in some small way...

GmanPro
10th Jan 2009, 19:38
I'd like to see DX3 address that in some small way...

And I would not...

iWait
10th Jan 2009, 20:36
And I would not...

Neither would I. Even though we know that some things in the official reports are off, we don't know anything else that happened. You would have to base whatever it would say off of the fact that we don't know what happened, and that doesn't make for a good story.



But...I think I work for the Man!

By working for the Man you're furthering the death of these innocent posts.
From this point on I'm chaining myself to this thread, so you can't hurt it.

!Viva la Resistance!
:mad2: :rasp:

SageSavage
10th Jan 2009, 20:59
Yeah, 9/11 is still an open case and also one that still provokes extreme reactions - this shouldn't be used for entertainment, not even when it's supposed to be thought provoking.

InGroove2
11th Jan 2009, 04:20
Neither would I. Even though we know that some things in the official reports are off, we don't know anything else that happened. You would have to base whatever it would say off of the fact that we don't know what happened, and that doesn't make for a good story.
:mad2: :rasp:

i never implied it should be a storyline at all.
technically alot of things in DX were based off things that weren't exactly "known".


Yeah, 9/11 is still an open case and also one that still provokes extreme reactions - this shouldn't be used for entertainment, not even when it's supposed to be thought provoking.

i don't really agree with that... there' plenty of thought provoking entertainment on the issue already.. starting with the hollywood-ized version of flight 93... ending with.. i dunno... zeitgeist or something. i don't think that DX3 putting a mention of the issues in there as simply a detail to add the "real conspiracy theory" credibility to the game would stir up a whole lot of commotion. but i see your point with regards to the emotional aspect of it.... i mean.. people don't get emotional about the govt alien cover up theory or the illuminati theory... etc...

but the case is not OPEN on 911. The official story stands and is not about to be reevaluated. that's simply a pipe dream of people like us who don't buy it. at the moment everything BUT the official story is a theory, nothing more. the case is closed and we went to war. End of Story.

...this is a tough crowd...

iWait
11th Jan 2009, 05:28
I know you didn't mean it should be a major factor in the storyline. But you said you wanted DX3 to adress it, which means there would be some sort of scenario showing what happened, or may have happened. Unless you want them to go with a conspiracy (most are unintelligent and blatantly stupid), the only other alternative is the scenario addressing the lack of evidence, and as I said, that doesn't make for a good story.

FreedomForever
11th Jan 2009, 06:30
Wasn't the History Channel documentary derided by many of the Internet Community, as was another one by BBC, for being a hit piece and mostly biased?
I guess the experts were against everything the theorist said which made their theory's look really bad.The experts had very logical reasons that totally made the theorist argument look like a regular person who assumes that the building shouldn't have fall like that or that a plane couldn't have done that etc.

So the only thing biased was getting experts vs theorist which of course equals the expert looking better.I would've loved if they put conspiracy experts(if their is some,which I think their must) to battle it out with the other experts,not some regular dude who post videos on youtube or have a website about 9/11.


I recommend you watching the video,even if it's biased is still one way of looking at what happened and you can make up your mind.

iWait
11th Jan 2009, 07:38
I guess the experts were against everything the theorist said which made their theory's look really bad.The experts had very logical reasons that totally made the theorist argument look like a regular person who assumes that the building shouldn't have fall like that or that a plane couldn't have done that etc.

So the only thing biased was getting experts vs theorist which of course equals the expert looking better.I would've loved if they put conspiracy experts(if their is some,which I think their must) to battle it out with the other experts,not some regular dude who post videos on youtube or have a website about 9/11.


I recommend you watching the video,even if it's biased is still one way of looking at what happened and you can make up your mind.

Weren't those conspiracy experts though? I know atleast one of those guys was in a thing about there being microscopic black holes in the center of the Earth, and another about the Bermuda triangle being a hole to other dimensions punched through by government experiments with alien stuff.

InGroove2
11th Jan 2009, 16:01
I know you didn't mean it should be a major factor in the storyline. But you said you wanted DX3 to adress it, which means there would be some sort of scenario showing what happened, or may have happened. Unless you want them to go with a conspiracy (most are unintelligent and blatantly stupid), the only other alternative is the scenario addressing the lack of evidence, and as I said, that doesn't make for a good story.

since when does "address" mean what you said it means? "address" could simply mean to discuss... (among many other meanings in the dictionary) which is more what i had in mind. think of all the different lengthy convos in DX. Many of which contained... basically conspiracy theories in which the character spoke as if he knew the truth...

now why couldn't there be a conversation with someone who... i don't know.. is asked about another more important character... and mentions how that character may or may not have, say, been part of the ISI planning for 911. now whether or not the ISI involvement is true at all, the truth is based on the character and what the character believes, not actual truth.

some of my favorite moments of DX were those long conversations where a character tells his perspective on a certain topic... talking about conspiracies... think of how many of those conspiracies mentioned aren't really apart of the plot, just apart of the details that make the world so full.

i think you have been taking my general ideas and putting them in a context as if i had something more specific. maybe i could have given you an example initially... or you could have asked.

InGroove2
11th Jan 2009, 16:07
Weren't those conspiracy experts though? I know atleast one of those guys was in a thing about there being microscopic black holes in the center of the Earth, and another about the Bermuda triangle being a hole to other dimensions punched through by government experiments with alien stuff.

the main problem that theorists have is that they're not necessarily experts with regards to the evidence they present. They' like lawyers without a doctor to do the autopsy... and obviously if they had smypathetic scientist etc.. they might have an easier time refuting the evidence... since the marjotiy of scientists or technical experts generally go with the official stories.

obviously it breed another conspiracy about how all the experts are compelled by the conspirators to keep quiet...

not to mention that if a professional decided to embrace what is generally called a conspiracy, their reputation is burned, so many of them don't really want to stand up behing dylan avery of loose change and fight for the cause.

FreedomForever
11th Jan 2009, 23:15
Weren't those conspiracy experts though? I know atleast one of those guys was in a thing about there being microscopic black holes in the center of the Earth, and another about the Bermuda triangle being a hole to other dimensions punched through by government experiments with alien stuff.

Im not sure is been a while since I saw it but I think some were like website owners of 9/11 conspiracy's.I wished their were more experts like him on the show so people wouldn't call it biased and so it will be fair.

and what I meant by experts,I meant like experts who prove stuff scientifically.Alot of the answers I was hearing by the conspiracy guys were"how could this have happen,look at what has happen before when a airplane crashes etc",alot of general statements like that which I guess do have a point but totally look bad when a expert says something more technical that disproves what he says by saying something really specific that makes sense.

canine
12th Jan 2009, 02:01
There are many experts on the theorists side as well, and many(not all) on the official versions side are not qualified to talk about them too. Unofficial evidence also came from people who are in the business for a long time who commented that what was said to have happended could not be true in real life. Of course, things like lousy pilots executing difficult manoeuvres and Muslim fundamentalists drinking beer do not require us to have a doctorate to know that something is fishy. In addition, the more technical sounding explanation may not be true anyway but its depth means that more crap could be put in without anyone noticing.

iWait
22nd Jan 2009, 05:47
Found a good one:

http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Watch it. Pretty interesting, and it's the only conspiracy theory I know of that I atleast minimally agree with.

BTW: It was banned from Youtube (though that doesn't say much... They ban everything controversial if it's doesn't have a huge liberal bias).

Deus_Ex_Machina
22nd Jan 2009, 08:58
Found a good one:

http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Watch it. Pretty interesting, and it's the only conspiracy theory I know of that I atleast minimally agree with.

BTW: It was banned from Youtube (though that doesn't say much... They ban everything controversial if it's doesn't have a huge liberal bias).

You AGREE with holocaust denial conspiracy theories?

Are you trolling or are you being serious?

Popp
22nd Jan 2009, 12:47
there are many many people who profited off of 9/11... if you watch the documentary "the corporation" (which i highly highly recommend), there's a day trader on there who is quoted as saying that his reaction to 9/11 was "i wonder what gold is doing now!?" (with excitment).
But you assume everyone cares about human loss blah blah blah. So this guy is exited about gold going up due to some buildings collapsing. So would I if I had a pile of gold! Doesn't mean I care as to why that happened.


and for you to say that the US Gov could have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq pre 9/11, is absurd. Explain on what premise they could have done that?
Didn't the U.S invade Iraq against the UN? It seems to me like like they could have invaded Afghanistan just as easily. I don't see why they NEED a premise since the only country with balls to tell then "**** you, no" is Russia.


PS. Imagine now how religion plays its part in making people feel powerless... it conditions us to submission to authority.
If religion makes someone feel powerless that's because they never had power to begin with. People in general who are easily motivated by something other than themselves are naturally subservient, and weak. End of story. People who can be subdued, should.

InGroove2
22nd Jan 2009, 16:39
But you assume everyone cares about human loss blah blah blah. So this guy is exited about gold going up due to some buildings collapsing. So would I if I had a pile of gold! Doesn't mean I care as to why that happened.


Didn't the U.S invade Iraq against the UN? It seems to me like like they could have invaded Afghanistan just as easily. I don't see why they NEED a premise since the only country with balls to tell then "**** you, no" is Russia.


If religion makes someone feel powerless that's because they never had power to begin with. People in general who are easily motivated by something other than themselves are naturally subservient, and weak. End of story. People who can be subdued, should.

uhhhh... i have no idea how to respond to THAT.

SageSavage
22nd Jan 2009, 16:54
I wouldn't say pointless but it reveals a very cold and egocentric image of humanity.

InGroove2
22nd Jan 2009, 17:13
I wouldn't say pointless but it reveals a very cold and egocentric image of humanity.

right... not very JC Denton...

iWait
22nd Jan 2009, 21:40
You AGREE with holocaust denial conspiracy theories?

Are you trolling or are you being serious?

Minimally agree. Did you actually watch it? I agree that there has been quite a sum of money made off of it, and the feelings towards the holocaust. Also that it could be a tool for manipulation, but that should go without saying for any event that has a heavy emotional impact on people.

SageSavage
22nd Jan 2009, 21:55
You don't need to believe everything that is written in history books but denial of the Holocaust is rediculous and a slap in the face of every survivor (some of them are still alive, y'know!) I am German and I actually do believe that we get fed up with a distorted version of history but there is no way in hell all those people (including my grand parents) told us consistent lies for centuries. I have visited some of the historic places, they are there and they are not fake, I can assure you.

iWait
22nd Jan 2009, 22:01
You don't need to believe everything that is written in history books but denial of the Holocaust is rediculous and a slap in the face of every survivor (some of them are still alive, y'know!) I am German and I actually do believe that we get fed up with a distorted version of history but there is no way in hell all those people (including my grand parents) told us consistent lies for centuries. I have visited some of the historic places, they are there and they are not fake, I can assure you.

Again, I said i minimally agree. My fault though for not being clear. I agree with the parts showing how it can/has been used as a tool for power and money. I also agree with some of the unfair punishment of the Nazis. I remember from an article a couple years back that there was one guy who worked Aushwitz at who only got 3 years, then there was a janitor who worked there that was shot.

InGroove2
22nd Jan 2009, 22:44
Again, I said i minimally agree. My fault though for not being clear. I agree with the parts showing how it can/has been used as a tool for power and money. I also agree with some of the unfair punishment of the Nazis. I remember from an article a couple years back that there was one guy who worked Aushwitz at who only got 3 years, then there was a janitor who worked there that was shot.

ever heard the story about the thousands of people who didn't work there and weren't german who were gassed? i mean i get what you're saying... but you know... you're not really giving the specifics here.... i mean
what's the story behind the janitor? i mean, was there a reason he was shot and the other dude wasn't?

no doubt though that the holocaust was profitable... look up I.G. Farben and Bayer for example. i won't get into the prescott bush connection, cause i'm not sure i totally buy the whole story...

but yeah, that was profit for german companies. germans did it. and profited (i guess until we lambasted them)

so, who profits the most from 911? i'm not saying america did it. i don't totally believe that. but it begs the question, no? i mean, i don't even know if the US or US interest DID profit most. i'm just posing the question.

dixieflatline
24th Jan 2009, 01:56
so, who profits the most from 911? i'm not saying america did it. i don't totally believe that. but it begs the question, no? i mean, i don't even know if the US or US interest DID profit most. i'm just posing the question.

I'm not sure if 'profit' is the right word. But look at 9/11 enabled: first off, compelete surrending of most of the rights that 10 years ago people would have not believed would have gone away: such as it is a known fact that the government has done extensive illegal surveillance on US citizens; you can be held indefinitely by the police, without access to a lawyer, and without be charged (unless Obama changes this), and be locked in a secret prison; people are more accepting of mass camera surveillance and much stronger 'security' measures such as biometric passports, and being x-ray scanned at airports. Protesting government actions was made out to be 'undemocractic.' Especially soon after 9/11, any public talk of peaceful means to combat terrorism could get your career terminated, or worse.

Freedom of the press has been diminished. 9/11 allowed the US to convince some many of its ignorant citizens that the invasion of Iraq was a good thing to do, when in fact it had nothing to do with 9/11.

The whole 'War on Terror.' Which is a war on personal freedom to me. The whole Al-Qaida boogeyman doesn't even exist as it is presented on mainstream news; it is not a super-advanced network of terrorists. It's a loose umbrella organization of low-tech terrorists. I apologize if this offends anyone, but for any American that has been killed in a terrorist act, there are about 1000 non-Americans that have been killed by the American government *not even considering the hot wars, but just through trade sanctions.*

(So it's okay to kill civilians with expensive, advanced weapons -- but not with homemade weapons that you can only build because you are dirt poor? THat's how it goes, right? )

I could go on but that's for starters.

Oh and about 100 of the Bush family friends profited tremendously from 9/11. Cheney for [xxxxx] sakes was a big CEO at Halliburton, who then got exclusive military contracts, where the taxpayers where being charged like $45 for a can of coke and such.

Funny to also think that the Iran was doing pretty good with a democratically elected leader -- until the CIA assassinated him, and put in a puppet regime. And now Iran is the big bad guy. Anyone see the irony here? (Look up Operation Ajax, I'm not making this stuff up out of my ass.) North Korea, the other member of the laughable 'Axis of Evil' is also a very convenient enemy to have, as it could possibly serve as a country for a proxy war between the west and China.

Could go on...

dixieflatline
24th Jan 2009, 02:00
Regarding the Holocaust, it most definitely did happen.

However I find it interesting that the Holocaust is somehow so much more morally worse than the even greater deaths brought on by Stalin or the excessive cruelties of Pol Pot regime (which the US helped bring about.) I also find it really sad that other genocides, such as the invasion and massacre in East Timor, was hardly reported on at all in the mainstream media in the US because of government happened to be friends with the invading country, and was profiting from selling them arms. That was a very sad story -- peaceful, unarmed civilians being chain-gunned and napalmed for pure resource reasons. (I invite anyone to read to read up on it.)

Keep in mind, if the Germans won WW2, there would have been no 'holocaust.' (I say this only to highlight that the strongest countries can 'decide' on the historical representation of something.)

(Note I do not intend at all to somehow lessen the sad case of the Holocaust. It was terrible and most definitely happened. I just wonder why the Germans are constantly tormented over this even today, when they aren't exactly the only bunch of people that have perpetuated a genocide. The Japanese killed more innocent Chinese and Koreans in WW2 than the Germans did Jews. Frankly I feel somewhat disgusted even talking in these kind of metrics but I thought I should bring that up... )

iWait
24th Jan 2009, 02:06
I also find it odd that you hear so many things about the Atomic Bomb usage in WW2, and yet you hear nothing about the much, much worse firebombing campaigns.

Alex Jacobson
24th Jan 2009, 02:33
I believe Walton Simons came up with the idea for having universal ammunition in Deus Ex: Invisible War...

Aside from that, I do not believe in that a global conspiracy of any real sort exists, at least not yet. What I do believe occurs often is the formation of small groups of like-minded individuals who decide to pool their resources and abilities with the end of pursuing their own ambitions of wealth and power, often through clandestine means. This occurs at several levels of society in different forms, ranging from high school cliques to associations of generals, politicians, and businessmen. The greatest danger is posed by groups that are aware that knowledge itself is power and have ample resources to take full advantage of this. I believe many of the famous coverups in history had little to deal with aliens and more to deal with corruption.

SageSavage
24th Jan 2009, 11:08
Aside from that, I do not believe in that a global conspiracy of any real sort exists, at least not yet.

Ever heared of Gladio (for example)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

El_Bel
24th Jan 2009, 16:55
Yup, in Greece we had 7 years dictatorship because of the CIA. And people ask why there is antiamerican feelings around the world :p

Alex Jacobson
24th Jan 2009, 17:57
The CIA should get a budget cut as it has proven, to a degree, to be a waste of resources. They knew about many of the terrorist attacks on this country and did little in the way of preventing them. They either underestimate threats or they come up with idiotic theories and plans based more on faith than on fact. They should put the money into modernization and moving industry back into this country.
The real conspiracy here is that these people want to profit from the chaos that they sow but don't actually know what they are doing. They are afraid of change and seek to stop it in a clumsy ham-fisted way and keep making money the good old way of war profiteering.

iWait
24th Jan 2009, 19:19
Psh, the CIA has got nothing on the ATF (and DEA), look at Ruby Ridge, Waco (They used actual military troops (plus National Guard) here, including a tank) , Castro, the drug cartels in South America, and, finally the restriction of medication to a phenomenally ludacris degree. Sure, I can get Vicodin for 15 minutes of my time, but kids aren't even allowed to bring aspirin into schools any more. I mean, just look at all the Valium-addicted housewives (especially upper-middle class) and yet, if the DEA thinks you might have meth they can break 7+ laws to get into your house.

FrankCSIS
25th Jan 2009, 00:49
DEA has to quite simply be dismantled.

Popp
25th Jan 2009, 01:36
uhhhh... i have no idea how to respond to THAT.

What can I say, I'm openly self-serving.Three thousand people will die everyday around the world and I couldn't care less if they were Americans or anything else. And if it makes my gold go up... Well, I don't see how that could be a bad thing for me.

I watched the news when 11.09(Silly North Americans!) happened, didn't blink. Fuzzpaws was on.

Now, if say the developers of DX:IW were in the twin towers and died, well, well then I'd be right dammn pissed.

No, I'm not trolling, and frankly, you can't be mad at me for not feeling for them.

Alex Jacobson
25th Jan 2009, 04:37
Psh, the CIA has got nothing on the ATF (and DEA), look at Ruby Ridge, Waco (They used actual military troops (plus National Guard) here, including a tank) , Castro, the drug cartels in South America, and, finally the restriction of medication to a phenomenally ludacris degree. Sure, I can get Vicodin for 15 minutes of my time, but kids aren't even allowed to bring aspirin into schools any more. I mean, just look at all the Valium-addicted housewives (especially upper-middle class) and yet, if the DEA thinks you might have meth they can break 7+ laws to get into your house.

QFT

iWait
25th Jan 2009, 07:46
What can I say, I'm openly self-serving.Three thousand people will die everyday around the world and I couldn't care less if they were Americans or anything else. And if it makes my gold go up... Well, I don't see how that could be a bad thing for me.

I watched the news when 11.09(Silly North Americans!) happened, didn't blink. Fuzzpaws was on.

Now, if say the developers of DX:IW were in the twin towers and died, well, well then I'd be right dammn pissed.

No, I'm not trolling, and frankly, you can't be mad at me for not feeling for them.

I am absolutely appalled by your post. To have the arrogance to call our date system silly is disgusting, ours goes by a very simple and logical order: month/day/year and it makes a lot of sense, since the most important thing you want to know usually is the month, and then the day an event happened. Not the day then month. I mean, what happens if you read eleven but not nine? Hmmm? Never thought of that did you? Think of it! You'd know the day, but not the month. Useless! Now if you read the nine first you'd atleast narrow the month down. Absolute Perfection!

Another thing, " Fuzzpaws was on.". You have the absolute audacity to call us "silly" and then not even the decency to explain this "Fuzzpaws" to us. Hmph, you make me sick.

People like you absolutely SICKEN me. "And if it makes my gold go up..." I know people like you... and I hate them. Oh yeah, I know the dollars getting the **** beat out of it, but I invested in gold since I'm so superior. hahaha just you wait until we can mass-synthesize gold, wheres your smart-ass comments now huh?

Totally agree with you on the not caring though.



And P.S. I love you

Deus_Ex_Machina
25th Jan 2009, 09:02
I am absolutely appalled by your post. To have the arrogance to call our date system silly is disgusting, ours goes by a very simple and logical order: month/day/year and it makes a lot of sense, since the most important thing you want to know usually is the month, and then the day an event happened. Not the day then month. I mean, what happens if you read eleven but not nine? Hmmm? Never thought of that did you? Think of it! You'd know the day, but not the month. Useless! Now if you read the nine first you'd atleast narrow the month down. Absolute Perfection!

Another thing, " Fuzzpaws was on.". You have the absolute audacity to call us "silly" and then not even the decency to explain this "Fuzzpaws" to us. Hmph, you make me sick.

People like you absolutely SICKEN me. "And if it makes my gold go up..." I know people like you... and I hate them. Oh yeah, I know the dollars getting the **** beat out of it, but I invested in gold since I'm so superior. hahaha just you wait until we can mass-synthesize gold, wheres your smart-ass comments now huh?

Totally agree with you on the not caring though.



And P.S. I love you

ROFL COPTERZ

Seriously though, American or not, civilian casualties are unacceptable, regardless of who the perpetrators were (US Govt. or Al Queda).

iWait
25th Jan 2009, 09:09
ROFL COPTERZ

Seriously though, American or not, civilian casualties are unacceptable, regardless of who the perpetrators were (US Govt. or Al Queda).

So civilian casualties are unacceptable, but the non-civilians is alright? :scratch:

Deus_Ex_Machina
25th Jan 2009, 09:37
So civilian casualties are unacceptable, but the non-civilians is alright? :scratch:

Let me be clear.

As far as the US DoD and the US Media are concerned, the term "civilian" and the term "terrorist" are relative terms.

As far as I am concerned, there are no relative terms.


My definitions :

- Civilian : An innocent unarmed person

- Terrorist : A person who uses fear to get what they want (This applies to religious fanatics and government officials)

- Freedom Fighter : An armed person who is fighting against an oppressor to ensure freedom for themselves and their people (This applies, for example, to people living within an occupied country who are simply fed up with the occupation)

Mindmute
25th Jan 2009, 12:28
Let me be clear.
My definitions :

- Civilian : An innocent unarmed person

- Terrorist : A person who uses fear to get what they want (This applies to religious fanatics and government officials)

- Freedom Fighter : An armed person who is fighting against an oppressor to ensure freedom for themselves and their people (This applies, for example, to people living within an occupied country who are simply fed up with the occupation)

Not sure how I feel about your last definition, freedom is a term so vast that it has been a more popular excuse than any other for many wars.




What can I say, I'm openly self-serving.Three thousand people will die everyday around the world and I couldn't care less if they were Americans or anything else. And if it makes my gold go up... Well, I don't see how that could be a bad thing for me.

No, I'm not trolling, and frankly, you can't be mad at me for not feeling for them.

And I honestly think that when we stop caring about human lives, we have ultimately failed as a race with morals..
I don't judge you or blame you, selfishness is great for self-preservation, I just can't bring myself to think the same way or to even understand how one can be that way.

FrankCSIS
25th Jan 2009, 18:43
Freedom Fighters are generally laughable. Freedom is first and foremost a state of mind, and very, very few truly understand what it means and where it leads. Picking up guns and shooting at the oppressor doesn't lead to freedom. It only leads to a new administration.

iWait
25th Jan 2009, 19:36
And I honestly think that when we stop caring about human lives, we have ultimately failed as a race with morals..
I don't judge you or blame you, selfishness is great for self-preservation, I just can't bring myself to think the same way or to even understand how one can be that way.

Why?

I lack empathy. I do not remember one point in my life in which I have had empathy for someone or something. The closest I have ever come is sympathy, and that is rare for me. As a kid, I have had teachers that called me a sociopath, a psychopath, and someone who thinks like Hitler (I don't know why, I'm not religious at all). In my teen years, I tortured insects to see what type of emotional reaction I would get out of it. I stopped after the second one, since it was a waste of time (they weren't females, this was in my house), and there was no point to it. I also did not want to bring unnecessary pain to the insects.
In my honest opinion, empathy is the most useless emotion there is. Why should I "feel their pain"? It doesn't help anyone, it's just a hindrance.


And I honestly think that when we stop caring about human lives, we have ultimately failed as a race with morals..

Well, imagine this scenario. Nobody cares about human lives. They attach no base value to human lives, other than their physical value, and any other earned emotion (hatred/love/respect/so on). If there was no attached value to human life, there would be no religion (religions claim that humans are "special"), there would be less of a need for government, there would be a lot less justifications for irrational actions, and, in my opinion, everyone would be happier.

SageSavage
25th Jan 2009, 20:12
Sorry iWait but that honestly sounds very sick to me. Humans are basically pack animals and as such it is very "normal and just natural to have emotions for other humans. If you totally lack them, something went horribly wrong in your life. I am not sure if you tell us the truth here but if so, you should seek (further) professional help - seriously. And don't assume many others share your disorder and therefore see the things like you do. Luckily this is not common.

iWait
25th Jan 2009, 21:25
I don't lack emotion, just empathy. And remember empathy =/= compassion/emphatic concern/love

My life is much, much better than the majority of the world's.

As for professional help, the reasoning of psychiatrists is almost always flawed, I have taken a few classes on basic psychology/sociology, and have known psychiatrists. From my personal experience, most psychiatrists are themselves emotionally distraught, and are generally not rationally thinking people.

InGroove2
26th Jan 2009, 00:40
In my honest opinion, empathy is the most useless emotion there is. Why should I "feel their pain"? It doesn't help anyone, it's just a hindrance.



really? i think it's really the opposite. Without empathy, people do not help other people.
OHHHHH with empathy, it's harder for you to help ONLY yourself.

i'm not gonna say you're wrong for feeling the way you do... but it's gonna be lonely out there without empathy. which might be fine for ya.


hmmmm....

anyone seen Rob Zombie's Halloween? i think we have Michael Myers on our hands.

Popp
26th Jan 2009, 15:24
In my teen years, I tortured insects to see what type of emotional reaction I would get out of it.

I don't know why, but I'd rather knife down a person than hurt animals.
Hahaw, you know how they say that "ooohhhh, if you kill or torture small animals, you will TOTALLY become a serial killer!"...

Well, no. Because I like animals, especially small ones. If it was between my cat, and say, everyone in my building. They can all die. If I had to think about it, I think it's because animals just are, you know. They don't do stupid **** on purpose, they will allways like you unless you give them a reason not to. Etc, etc...

Popp
26th Jan 2009, 15:29
Also, Fuzzpaws was this wierd show on YTV(for you Canuckistanians) that was all about these wierd puppets. There was a Jamaican one, I think, and a lion, or something... But for sure there was this pig, and sometimes he wore a hat.

Seriously though, can't remember much now, but I know I wanted to watch it. I was what, 16? Okay, not the coolest thing for a 16 year old to watch, yeah, but there's not alot of good stuff on, on weekdays.

SageSavage
26th Jan 2009, 16:33
About time for some official news, people are going nuts already... :cool:

megam4n
26th Jan 2009, 22:05
I believe the fluoride in our tap water is a form of mind control...

You failed to mention there's thousands of times the concentration of that industrial cr4p in your toothpaste.

The Fluoride Deception (Interview With Christopher Bryson)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7319752042352089988

"In this video, Christopher Bryson, an award-winning journalist and former producer at the BBC, discusses the findings of his new book The Flouride Deception."

Recent research from Alberta Canada, found that cancer is caused by a mitochondria dysfunction. (ref:—Cheap, 'safe' drug kills most cancers (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10971-cheap-safe-drug-kills-most-cancers.html)) Fluorides are extremely toxic and interfere with nearly every known biological function, including DNA repair mechanisms at concentrations as low as 1p.p.m (part per million) hence directly affect the mitochondria.

Even at such low concentrations, it lowers the IQ and interfere with normal neuro psychological & physiological functions (http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/epa/nrc/excerpts.html), as was proven by Dr. Phyllis Mullenix (http://www.fluoridealert.org/pmullenix.htm) at the Forsyth Dental Center in Boston in the early 1980s ¹.

The Soviets were fans of forced fluoridation (http://presselibreinternationale.com/fluor/_PDF/sodium_fluoride_obedience_drug.pdf) and the Nazis (http://presselibreinternationale.com/fluor/_PDF/sodium_fluoride_obedience_drug.pdf). "...both Germans and Russians used fluoridation because they had discovered that it made their prisoners "stupid and docile"..."¹ª There seems to be a trend developing with cancer over-taking Malaria and every other disease as the no.1 killer in the world ².

The biggest conspiracy I have ever seen is when dentists tell people straight to their face (http://www.curezone.com/dental/fluoride.asp) that it's "good for them" .. never once warning them about the toxicology or even bothering to research for 2 seconds the countless independent studies. ³ Furthermore, as governments try and push this down people's throats by forced fluoridation schemes, the legislature is biased to either ignore or discredit what any of the countless independent research finds.

Thus you give sugar 'flavoured' fluorides to your children, thinking it's "good for their teeth" when it interferes with normal (strong) crystalline enamel forming and replaces it with a much weaker substitute, so you have to keep up regular checks to the dentist to repair your teeth. Giving them money to help you poison yourself!

You also accumulate it, because it's a cumulative toxin and binds to the calcium in your bones and breasts and — teeth! So that white mottled look (http://fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm) you developed on your teeth? That's a medical symptom of fluoride poisoning (http://fluoridealert.org/fluorosis-india.htm), literally. I bet your dentist never told you that! Just asked for more money to 'cover it up'.

The biggest conspiracy relating to the health of the human race - ever!


* NOTE *

Another possible connection. A couple of years ago there was a book written about how male DNA was breaking down. As women have XX and a kind of repair mechanism which men lack, the book detailed (going from memory) how healthy men have another 10,000 years before degradation of their DNA would make it unlikely there'd be any healthy men available without debilitating genetic aberrations.

Is it conspiratorial that I can't find anything relating to these articles? There were articles posted in scientific journals about the subject, and how they had found just one mammal on the planet (in South America) where its sexual determining genetics jumped from the Y to the X chromosome and allowed this particular mammal to survive. Allowing the male and female sex to both use X chromosomes. (Taking advantage of the DNA repair model).

Considering its damaging effects on DNA would not fluoride speed up the rate of decay of the Y chromosome ? Effectively wiping out the men in human society, that segment of humanity that usually defends and wages war against aggressors ?

¹ The cholinergic system cooperates with salt to make the body work. Acetylcholine controls the show: it regulated concentration and filters out distracting noises and other stimuli. Without it, we can't think clearly... fluoride is a byproduct of aluminum ore extraction. Ironically, the EPA monitors industry dumping its sodium fluoride garbage into rivers because it can kill fish... fluoride messes up the thinking process by interfering with acetyl-choline synthesis... only 1 part per million of sodium fluoride in the water we drink... inhibits acetylcholine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine#Function) synthesis 61%... [and] the neurotransmitter glutamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine#Functions) .. 100%

¹ª "..both Germans and Russians used fluoridation because they had discovered that it made their prisoners "stupid and docile" (Well Mind Association). Eustace Mullins in Murder by Injection (http://www.amazon.com/Murder-injection-medical-conspiracy-against/dp/B0006EPZWS/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top), claimed that the originators of fluoridation in the United States were informed about the Soviet uses of fluoride salts to induce sheeplike, obedient, unthinking behavior, not only in prisoners, but in the general population at large."

Fluoride. Well Mind Association, January 1994
Mullins, Eustace, Murder by Injection (http://www.amazon.com/Murder-injection-medical-conspiracy-against/dp/B0006EPZWS/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top), National Council for Medical Research, VA, 1988.

ref: http://presselibreinternationale.com/fluor/_PDF/sodium_fluoride_obedience_drug.pdf

² WHO warned that cancer will surpass heart disease as the leading killer worldwide by 2010.

³ www.fluorideaction.org
- www.curezone.com/dental/fluoride.asp


______________________________________

Self-help guide to dealing with Fluoride poisoning
www.slweb.org/Protocol.pdf

Possible fluoride poison symptoms
www.slweb.org/ftrcpossiblesymptoms.html

Fluoride in food
http://poisonfluoride.com/pfpc/html/f-_in_food.html

Check out infowars.com for some really interesting conspiracies. Not the theoretical type.

PugPug
27th Jan 2009, 05:36
I don't really want to get into it, (there's nothing I can say that isn't already out there for people who are curious), but I'm convinced 9/11 was an inside job.

megam4n
3rd Feb 2009, 04:20
The Soviets were fans of forced fluoridation (http://presselibreinternationale.com/fluor/_PDF/sodium_fluoride_obedience_drug.pdf) and the Nazis (http://presselibreinternationale.com/fluor/_PDF/sodium_fluoride_obedience_drug.pdf). "...both Germans and Russians used fluoridation because they had discovered that it made their prisoners "stupid and docile"..."¹ª There seems to be a trend developing with cancer over-taking Malaria and every other disease as the no.1 killer in the world ².

Book: Cancer Why We're Still Dying To Know The Truth (http://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Were-Still-Dying-Truth/dp/0953501248/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233634531&sr=8-1)
by Phillip Day, 1999

Pages 83-84

Fluoride
Fluoride is a toxic, non-biodegradable, environmental pollutant, officially classified as a contaminant by the US Environmental Protection Agency. Shocking though it may be to contemplate, the reality is, fluoride is simply hazardous industrial waste — a by-product from the manufacture of phosphate fertilisers — which is largely disposed of in our public water supply. Hydrofluorosilicic acid, the most commonly used fluoridation additive, contains other toxic substances including lead, mercury, cadmium, arsenic, and radionuceides. Fluoride's beastliness was summed up in a terse statement issued by Dr Dean Burke of the National Cancer Institute:

"Fluoride causes more human cancer death, and causes it faster than any other chemical."
Dr Dean Burke of the National Cancer Institute

In May 1992, Dr William Marcus, the senior science advisor and chief toxicologist with the United States Environmental Protection Agency, was fired from his post after publicly disclosing his frank comments concerning fluoride's appalling hazards. Marcus was concerned that the results of US Government studies on fluoride, completed in 1984 and a second in 1987, were kept from the American public. After a long fight, Dr Marcus was reinstated on 28th February 1995. "If this were any other chemical but fluoride," Marcus commented, "there would be a call for the immediate cessation of its use. It shows potential for great harm."

The Safe Water Foundation filed Freedom of Information Act requests and to obtain the results of these government studies. Dr John Yiamouyiannis (president of the Safety Water Foundation) said "All tests came out positive." (establishing a fluoride-cancer link)

² WHO warned that cancer will surpass heart disease as the leading killer worldwide by 2010.

Abram730
22nd May 2009, 06:16
The "kill switch" for humans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENiwuapMN3o

The tiny electronic device, dubbed the “Killer Chip” by Swiss daily Tagesanzeiger, would be suited for tracking fugitives from justice, terrorists, illegal immigrants, criminals, political opponents, defectors, domestic help, and Saudi Arabians who don’t return home from pilgrimages.

“I apply for these reasons and for reasons of state security and the security of citizens,” the statement reads.

After subcutaneous implantation, the chip would send out encrypted radio waves that would be tracked by satellites to confirm the person’s identity and whereabouts. An alternate model chip could reportedly release a poison into the carrier if he or she became a security risk.

KSingh77
22nd May 2009, 17:27
Heres a conspiacy theory:

Hiroshma wasn't bombed by the A-bomb.Chuck Norris jumped out of the plane and pound his fist to the ground.

mad_red
24th May 2009, 18:52
Some nice stuff posted here. Mostly 9/11 stuff so not much news for a big story fan like myself.
So lets keep mixing it up.

Firstly, facts about Chuck Norris (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcq2byaI2p8&feature=related) (best watched with no knowledge of Italian)
What I learned: "Non c'e mento dietro alla barba di Chuck Norris. C'e solo uno altra pugno."


NEXT(some of my favorites):
Freeman Robert Menard (www.thinkfree.ca)

and

Freeman John Harris (www.tpuc.org) (There's also textbook conspiracy story on this site)

and lotsa others like:The Matrix Exposed / The Strawman Illusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OfiSdaIJl4&feature=PlayList&p=479AB374DC1F1629&index=0&playnext=1)
Intro to your Human Rights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUs2MW6a9aQ&feature=PlayList&p=D3AB095FBF4E6B79&index=0&playnext=1)


NEXT you probably already know Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Addendum (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=2E758CC95B2079E0)

But do you also know:
The Money Masters (the historic battle between the USA and the European central bankers) (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1DA439E043F65268&search_query=the+money+masters)

The Ring of Power (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EE091DFCB5B993DA&search_query=ring%20of%20power%20full&sort_field=title) (no proper playlist for this one :( )

Finally some cool science:
Ancient Technology (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=203061C38328A9AB&search_query=ancient+technology)

Nassim Haramein, Grand Unified Field Theory (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=88EDD1895A2F5587&search_query=nassim+haramein)

Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology (http://thunderbolts.info/home.htm)

Lots of "free energy" and Tesla technologies too of course. JFGI (http://www.just*******googleit.com/)

The Meru Foundation (http://meru.org/) Finally a decent Bible code. How hard can it be?

Well, that's all for now. I'll put up more as soon as I remember then. Smoked pot and forgot to put on my tinfoil hat, so the old brainbox is a bit slow.


Daily conspiracy news? Check out stuff like:
www.dailygrail.com (http://www.dailygrail.com)
www.rense.com (http://www.rense.com/)
www.bash.org (http://www.bash.org/?top)

... :nut: