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Blade_hunter
1st Sep 2008, 03:06
This thread is for inventory proposals and features proposals too
If someone wants to propose an inventory don't mention a game or say I want the inventory from that game.
Please mention the system with a full description and features
If you say I propose the SS2 inventory is useless if no ones plays that game or you don't know all features of this inventory.

The inventory must have some options like difficulty settings, after all this can make the game more fitted to everyone

The inventory should have 5 sizes tiny to unlimited

We should have the inventory and the belt for quick access to every item
All square based inventories can have the possibility to rotate items except the linear inventory

We should have the choice about what we want to pick up from the bodies and other locations if some objects acts like the bodies

I want to suggest some inventories without any game references some can come from some games or not.

Linear inventories

Linear inventory 1
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low precision
-Some items can be pilled into one space and take an other space if we reach the limited number allowed in this space
-Small items can be pilled into one slot or multiple slots
-Heavy items takes 4 slots
-Large items takes 3 slots
-Medium takes 2 slots
-Small takes 1 slot
-Tiny and numbered items can be pilled into one surface
-All items take slots

Linear inventory 2
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low precision
-Some items can be pilled into one space and take an other space if we reach the limited number allowed in this space
-Heavy items takes 4 slots
-Large items takes 3 slots
-Medium takes 2 slots
-Small takes 1 slot, tiny and numbered items can be pilled into one surface
-All weapons and items can be managed in the same inventory
-All ammo can be carried with their limited account

Linear inventory 3
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low precision
-Some items can be pilled into one space and take an other space if we reach the limited number allowed in this space
-Heavy items takes 4 slots
-Large items takes 3 slots
-Medium takes 2 slots
-Small takes 1 slot
-Tiny and numbered items can be pilled into one surface
-Weapons have their inventory, items have a separate inventory and ammo can be carried with their limited account

Linear inventory 4
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low precision
-Some items can be pilled into one space and take an other space if we reach the limited number allowed in this space
-Heavy items takes 4 slots
-Large items takes 3 sots
-Medium takes 2 slots
-Small takes 1 slot, tiny and numbered items can be pilled into one surface
-All weapons and items can be managed in the same inventory
-All ammo is managed by weight

Linear inventory 5
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low precision
-Heavy items takes 4 slots
-Large items takes 3 slots
-Medium takes 2 slots
-Small takes 1 slot
-Tiny and numbered items can be pilled into one surface
-Weapons have their inventory
-Items have a separate inventory
-Items can be pilled into one space and take an other space if we reach the limited number allowed in this space
-All ammo is managed by weight
The linear inventories doesn't have a weight based version because it's useless due to their low accuracy even if some of them have a weight based part the rotate option is unavailable because they are in line

Universal inventories

Universal inventory 1
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-All items are managed in the same space

Universal inventory 2
-Weight based (limited by weight)
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space
-Square inventory management
-Heavy items have a big wight and tiny items have tiny weight (if the accuracy is low we can carry some amount of the same tiny item without affecting the global weight of the item)
-All items are managed in the same space
Those inventories make the choices about every item their accuracy is variable because it depends what players wants from them.


Separate inventories with universal management

Separate inventories 1
-Slot based
-3 separate inventories with their limited space
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-This inventory have a weapon space for items with their primary function is to be a weapon
-The ammo inventory is for ammo and ammo weapons like grenades and fire and forget weapons
-The Item inventory is for tools and miscellaneous items

Separate inventories 2
-Weight based (limited by weight)
-3 separate inventories with their allowed weight
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space
-Square inventory management
-Heavy items have a big wight and tiny items have tiny weight (if the accuracy is low we can carry some amount of the same tiny item without affecting the global weight of the item)
-This inventory have a weapon space for items with their primary function is to be a weapon
-The ammo inventory is for ammo and ammo weapons like grenades and fire and forget weapons
-The Item inventory is for tools and miscellaneous items
Those inventories are easy to manage but their inconvenient are the fact we cant choose between each element (ammo or tool for example)

Semi universal inventories

Semi universal inventory 1
-Slot based
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-All weapons and items can be managed in the same space
-The ammo is managed in a separate space

Semi universal inventory 2
-Slot based
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-All weapons and items can be managed in the same space
-The ammo is carried with their limited account

Semi universal inventory 3
-Weight based (limited by weight)
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space
-Square inventory management
-Heavy items have a big weight and tiny items have tiny weight (if the accuracy is low we can carry some amount of the same tiny item without affecting the global weight of the item)
-All weapons and items can be managed in the same space
-The ammo is managed in a separate space by slots

Semi universal inventory 4
-Weight based (limited by weight)
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space
-Square inventory management
-Heavy items have a big weight and tiny items have tiny weight (if the accuracy is low we can carry some amount of the same tiny item without affecting the global weight of the item)
-All items can be managed
-The ammo is carried with their limited account (the ammo don't takes weight in this version)
The semi universal inventories are close to the universal but it has one separate inventory with sometimes an other management.

Separate inventories with different managements

Separate inventory with different managements 1
-Slot based
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-Weapons only can take specific rooms,
-The items are limited by number and some can be carried in several amount in the same slot
-The ammo is carried with their limited account

Separate inventory with different managements 2
-Slot based
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-Weapons only can take specific rooms,
-The items are limited by number and some can be carried in several amount in the same slot
-The ammo is managed by weight

Separate inventories with separate managements 3
-Weight based (limited by weight)
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space
-Slot inventory management
-Heavy items have a big weight and tiny items have tiny weight (if the accuracy is low we can carry some amount of the same tiny item without affecting the global weight of the item)
-The weapons are limited by weight,
-The items are limited by slots and can be carried in some amount in the same slot
-The ammo is carried with their limited account (the ammo don't takes weight in this version)
Those inventories have different managements and separate the main advantage of it is it's easier to make it balanced

Universal inventories with separate spaces

Universal inventory with separate spaces 1
-Slot based
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-All items are managed in different size spaces we have some spaces that allow to carry specific sized items

Universal inventory with separate spaces 2
-Weight based (limited by weight)
-Can be upgraded by a strength skill
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space
-Square inventory management
-Heavy items have a big wight and tiny items have tiny weight (if the accuracy is low we can carry some amount of the same tiny item without affecting the global weight of the item)
-All items are managed in different spaces with their maximum weight
Those inventories makes some choices but we can't carry some items even if the global squares / weight allow this, because it use multiple spaces like pockets, backpacks and other stores this is a sort of realistic inventory system


If You don't like any of those inventory systems submit yours with their features, but if you like one chose one

jcp28
11th Sep 2008, 22:55
Well, somebody had to post in this thread.:D

I can't say for sure how I would like a linear inventory until I saw it in practice.

Either of the universal inventories would work well, I think. A system where we can only carry one or two heavy weapons would provide good balance to the game. I also don't mind separate inventories for weapons and items if it encouraged players to manage their items better. But I don't want the ammo to take up space. That's getting ridiculous.

However, I'd personally find it annoying if carrying more items slowed down my movement. I don't mind realism, but there are some things that can take away from the fun(like items which slow you down) I don't want to have to go slower just because I have close to the max amount of items.

Blade_hunter
12th Sep 2008, 11:48
Universal inventory
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4229/universalinventoryfz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Universal inventory with separate spaces
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6236/inventoryds2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Linear inventory
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9291/linearinventorync4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Separate inventories
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2575/sepaerateinventorieswe1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

there is only examples of some models but I think many players can't imagine other things as thing they seen in other games

Dragonlord
12th Sep 2008, 12:22
As an game-dev I can tell you that this is bad. It's way too complex and cumbersome for a player to use. Inventory systems have to be simple. The Deus-Ex one had been simple. One grid, one rule. It would be a bad idea to alienate players using a complex inventory. After all KISS rules ;) . So the best one would be the first ( Deus-Ex ) style. Least confusing of all of them.

Blade_hunter
12th Sep 2008, 14:23
You ? a game developer ? What are you developed because one class is most simple than the DX inventory.
And an other thing you don't read any of them because I have added a well known inventory system in this thread
You confirm my phrase when I talk about the fact many players can't imagine things if they never seen that in an other game.

The linear inventory already exists in some games, and it's very easy to use
I don't tell any name because I want to speak about the inventory mechanism and specifications and not like some guys that just tell the game where the inventory is came from without know any specifications.

And an other thing an inventory can be simple to complex by the precision of the inventory, its size, and how much choices we need to do.
It's not necessary to be a game developer to know what is simple and complex.
Many games uses inventories even some oldish FPS games have inventories, sometimes they doesn't have graphics but they exists.
I have examined many systems before proposing the inventories in the thread some are much simple than DX inventory and some others are more complex.

I don't proposed the one slot = one item because all wants to make a difference between each, and I proposed many weight versions because some like the weight system instead of the square system.

Most of them already exists or are close to some existing because the item size / weight was made in an other manner but close to them.

The less confusing of all is one item = one slot and the upper level is the linear inventory.

I've pay much attention to this thread because I wanted to put all of the essential characteristics of any inventory and propose correct things. (things that can be made)

I give some examples by designs to help some guys that have some difficulties to imagine an inventory until they doesn't see it.

Freddo
12th Sep 2008, 14:38
I want a low precision slot based system, where the weight matters in some way. Carry over a certain weight limit and you walk slower, jump lower and so on. Not a huge change so it becomes extremly annoying for the player, but rather just a minor touch. Besides, the limited slot system shouldn't allow for lots of things so the player barely have the strength to walk.

I also don't want separate spaces. They make things needlessly complicated. This game isn't about inventory micromanagement. It also limits the player depending on the play style s/he uses. The inventory in Deus Ex was good enough, no reason to change that.

Also, when we "activate" a dead body to pick up stuff from it, we should also be able to choose to carry the body. So we don't have to "empty" the body before carrying it away. It was an annoyance in the original Deus Ex when the player inventory was full, and one didn't have space for the body inventory, and thus couldn't carry the body.

Oh, and the quick bar found in the first Deus Ex should return. Where the user easily could assign a weapon/item to a numeric hotkey.

Blade_hunter
12th Sep 2008, 15:53
What is for you micro management?
because separate inventories gives you less management than an universal, because you don't have to chose between an utility and a weapon for example, the bad side of it, it's you can't chose between each class (weapon and utility for example)

A precise inventory gives you more management than a low precision I think you have understood this but I don't know if you want to talk about the separation ?
Less choices the inventory gives you less management you have, no ?

Dragonlord
12th Sep 2008, 21:11
I won't go into details since it looks like somebody is "jumpy" here. Of course these inventories have been made at other places, never said anything else. Also linking inventory types with games is not "bad" but good since it allows to test out an inventory before using it. Mind checking out the work of others is very good learning process since it allows to reason about why it works or does not work.

Now the inventory of Deus-Ex is often already consider complex compared to other systems since you have various properties to keep track of: amount ( for stackable goods ), size ( jigsaw type inventory ), weight. As mentioned by the poster two above if you get lost in the inventory something is wrong. The Deus-Ex inventory has complexity but is still easy to use. It's hard to improve this design. In general the GUI design of Deus-Ex itself is hard to improve since they managed to pack lots of informations in the available space while still keeping it intuitive to use.

Which is the most important point for an inventory system: Intuitive. It's easy to make systems overly complex but tricky to make it intuitive. High precision jigsaw grids are a bit too much. The jigsaw is there to prevent overpowered builds to some extend. Uping the granularity does not add anything to this game mechanics except making it cumbersome to use. Universal is overkill. If a common player sees this inventory the first time he drops from his chair. It simply smacks you down with lots of different areas, grids, lines, blockings and what not else. The question here is "what does it help?". What game mechanics is inspired by such a layout? It looks artificial and bloated and if these two words come into play a design has to be revisited. Linear inventories there is not much to say about. They exist since quite some time in various shapes. Best used for few items since with a lot of items scrolling can get the better of you ( besides loosing oversight of your belongings )... especially on consoles. The separate inventory is like the universal one. Why introducing a separation? Why different groups? Is there any reason why they can not be simply placed in one inventory? A separation in an inventory has to be for a reason. If it's just there for "just being there" then it's not going to be intuitive and has a better chance to confuse the player or just being cumbersome than being helpful. After all an inventory has to be helpful since it's one of the most important game elements a player has to deal with over the coarse of a gaming session.

Blade_hunter
12th Sep 2008, 21:58
Ok what is the DX 1 inventory, what is the Chrome inventory, what is the SOF 1 & 2 inventory, What is the DX 2 inventory, what is the DX 2 inventory, what is the vampire the masquerade inventory, what is the diablo inventory, the throne of darkness inventory, what is the dungeon siege inventory, what is the system shock 2 and what is the STALKER inventory?

Because speaking by just mentioning DX inventory its the easiest way to avoid the subject.

Universal inventory is an inventory where all items can be managed, I tried this in two games and it wasn't overkill if you say that it's because you never tried one of them, and more separate inventories exists too they are separate by utilities, weapons and ammo.
The separate inventories aren't hard to use because you don't need to choose between utilities and weapons the choices are only turned to utilities with other utilities and weapons with other weapons and even ammo with other ammo
The separate inventories are easier to manage than the DX inventory, but the universal is harder and the hardest is the universal one with separate spaces. because the separate spaces gives a difficulty about its management.
And the DX inventory can be improved with ease because I have the solution that avoid the player to move the objects inside it when he try to carry an item and have the sufficient space to carry it but he needs to moves each item.
Without a rotating trick and without auto management.

I wait for some answers before giving all justifications

Dragonlord
13th Sep 2008, 12:48
And the DX inventory can be improved with ease because I have the solution that avoid the player to move the objects inside it when he try to carry an item and have the sufficient space to carry it but he needs to moves each item.
Without a rotating trick and without auto management.
This makes no sense ( phrase wise ).
"avoid the player to move the objects inside it". Where in the Deus-Ex inventory you need to "move objects inside it" please?

I assume you mean the inventory is automatically adjusted to make the free space required ( so called "back pack problem" in computer science )? Doing so though you are back to a mere weight/space based inventory just with an annoying item size limitation. It's easier then to have a simple linear list with limitation rules ( only 2 rifles or only one heavy weapon or alike ).

Blade_hunter
13th Sep 2008, 14:01
Where ? like many square based inventory you need to move the items to get space because items requires space and a specific form a square form for example or a line even if it don't disturb me because I like square systems because they are visual and we can see quickly if we can carry an item or not

I never criticize the inventory complexity of DX but you criticize the suggested inventories as all were too complex and I suggested simple, mid range and complex inventories systems with standard features. One of them is a well known inventory system

Any system can be hard to manage if the precision of it is too high, for example if a tiny item take more than one/two slots for example in a slot based system, or we use decimals with a weight system.

And I never spoken about a too much limitation / and this kind of thing ...

Fen
13th Sep 2008, 17:16
Looks like youve put a lot of effort into this post. But there is no need for complex inventory systems. Its just annoying for the player. The way DX had it was simple and very effective. Theres no need to move away from this winning formula.

Theres no point in adding weight or seperate tabs or anything. Just simple squares and items which take them up.

Blade_hunter
13th Sep 2008, 18:28
Ok some guys finally tends to confirm again my think about the never see, can't imagine, this thread is over because they use a game name instead of game feature and I'm don't respecting this rule too.

this is approximatively the DX inventory system


Semi universal inventory 2
-Slot based
-Low to High precision
-Some items of the same genre can be pilled into one space and take and other space when the limit in the same space is reached
-Heavy items can take up to 12x more space than small items
-Large items can take up to 8x more space than small items
-Medium items can take up to 6x more space than small items
-Small items can take one to 6 squares (depends of the inventory precision)
-Tiny items can be pilled in several number or with a lower number but up to 4 squares or only 1 (depends of the inventory precision)
-All weapons and items can be managed in the same space
-The ammo is carried with their limited account.

There is 2 features like the item size and the fact when we reach a certain limit of an item it can't use an other slot to make an other pile

the DX inventory have 2 inventories one for tools and weapons and the other for ammo
the weapons and the tools are managed in the same space
all items takes one slot except some medium to large low tech weapons, the rifles and the heavy
the size is made like the following
small and tiny items takes one slot, consumables can be pilled into one slot and are limited to a certain amount, the size of them have a low influence on it, because the base is more about the item value even if some more valuable items can be carried in higher number than a less valuable.
the medium weapons takes 3 up to 4 slots in line for semi autos and manual and in square for the autos.
the heavy takes 4 for the LAW and 8 for the others
most weapons and items have size compared to their value like the dragon tooth and the sword they have the same weight 20 pounds.
ant the dragon tooth is lighter than the LAW (50 pounds) and the sniper (25 pounds) this was made to keep a certain balance between each

The ammo is managed in a separate space and can be carried with their limited account.

This thread is now useless because most persons doesn't want to talk about features ....

Larington
13th Sep 2008, 19:39
I think I'm with Dragonlord here, the DX1 interface was ideal, it had complexity but kept it to a minimum, the only improvement I felt it needed was better side-quest tracking.

That said, I know some designers have gone for vastly more complicated setups and thats their choice I suppose, but I'd say the moment you're accessing multiple pages for one interface element, something might be wrong.

That said, if you've played it (Heh, and not used up all your installs, friggin' EA), take a look at the interface for inventory in mass effect. The fact you can choose sub-categories such as weapons works primarily because the player will pick up lots of a particular type of item during the course of play and theres relatively few types of equipment sub-divided down into pistols, rifles, shotguns, sniper-rifles, grenade add-ins and so on.

I have noted a weakness with the interface however, if you then try to buy/sell equipment, the ability to sort by type of item isn't possible and it becomes a mess as a result and lengthens the time it takes for the player to sort through all his/her equipment... This is partly mitigated by having a store right next to the Normandies party member equipment selection so you can sense check your sale decisions (As well as compare feature), but its still not ideal.

You basically have to sense check the balance between the variety, type and number of objects in game against how you want the interface to be displayed and limited - In this regard, I'd say System Shock 2 & Deus Ex got it very close to perfect.

I'd also say I prefer the system of movement speed being limited by what weapon you have unholstered at the time, rather than an overall weight calculation which really, is more work for the developers than they need.

Blade_hunter
13th Sep 2008, 21:30
System shock 2 uses an universal inventory slot based with a body equipment is this inventory complicated ?
STALKER uses an universal inventory too with a weight system
Chrome uses an universal with separate space (it was the most complex inventory system I have used and it's more limited and precise than my version)
SOF 1 uses a linear inventory with a separate item zone and ammo carried with their limited account
vampire the masquerade uses an universal inventory but all consumables can't be pilled (ammo,scrolls and other potions)

and my favorite inventory system is a mix between DX 1 and SS2 inventories, like the skills too
if someone wants my personal opinion and my universal inventory uses features from DX 1, DX 2 and SS2 the second model is the stalker version

I proposed the others systems because perhaps someone like to see a more simple inventory system, or perhaps a more complex

and about the interface if someones wants my own opinion I prefer mixing the DX and SS2 interface too, but thats my opinion too and I don't criticize the DX UI It was ones of the best UI I ever seen like the SS2 UI

About separate inventories and categories I never proposed more than 3 zones and 2 models one where we can see all zones and the other with visually separate zones and DX have 2 zones one for tool / weapon and the other with ammo

And even the universal with separate spaces you can put a pistol in all spaces, ammo in all spaces the bigger items are more limited
this is the most complicated inventory system and it's realistic but it gives less freedom than the "universal" or the "semi universal (DX 1)" one.

I use that names because I qualify them to it. but at this state my thread is useless nobody have recognized the DX 1 inventory by its features

Larington
13th Sep 2008, 21:41
Aside from the amount you're able to carry being partially based on strength, its fairly simple, as is the DX1 inventory system, which is why it works so well. Most of the complexity really is due to all the other interface elements (skill/ability levelling, data stores for objectives & dialogue, etc.). Not being a programmer myself I don't know for sure, but I've heard tell that programming drag and drop inventory systems can be a bit of a pain to code, its the implementation thats the challenge (Nothing new there then) rather than the design that is the complicated bit.

Dragonlord
13th Sep 2008, 21:52
How difficult DnD is ( No, Drag'n'Drop not what you might think now ;) ) depends on the GUI toolkit used in the game. Technically it's very easy to pull off if the GUI delivers "Mouse Press", "Mouse Motion" and "Mouse Release" events properly.

Blade_hunter
14th Sep 2008, 00:21
Drag and drop things are hard to program I never see those things in web browser games before the web 2.0 (without the flash and the java plugin of course), I'm not a skilled programmer myself but I have some knowledge about programming.
Many inventories like DX, Diablo for example have things close(I say close) to operating systems interfaces or like the building placing of a 2D RTS game in the map
I think it's one of the reasons they choose the unreal engine for DX 1, it have the drag and drop modules ready, the interface customization too. some mods for UT uses graphic interfaces and even inventories.

I see some mods (total conversions) that change the entire nature of the game like flight / vehicle simulators and RTS for UT

binlargin
14th Sep 2008, 01:16
Drag n drop is pretty trivial compared to some of the challenges faced in graphics and AI programming, but it's not a matter of how hard something is but how much time it takes, how many resources are available, and how important the feature is. I'd say it's a feature that can be ditched if the majority of users are going to be console ones because they don't even have a mouse.
If the majority of players are PC users, then drag and drop becomes way more important and it's worth spending the time on it.

Let's just hope they can spend a little more time on the inventory screen than than they did in DX2, which sucked.

Blade_hunter
14th Sep 2008, 06:44
Yes but we go far to the main subject, and with consoles we can use the joystick like a mouse controller, no ?
and in consoles (I don't include the wii) we can install Linux in the PS3 and Windows in the Xbox. even if I never do this myself

Dragonlord
14th Sep 2008, 15:41
DX:IW showed how bad it is to ditch important GUI features to satisfy consoles. Having a dumbed down version for a console is okay but putting handcuffs on PC players because the consoles just can't do any better is very bad ( unfortunately growing to a hobby of todays AAA game devs <.=.< ).

Now about DnD. Do not judge DnD on the situation of browsers. A browser has "no mutable content" by design. Hence you need to use JavaScript to provide variables and DOM to modify the content but by design it's a display only. Everything else is a big hack. Furthermore mouse events are badly handled by browsers ( again due to design ). Hence as mentioned the underlaying situation is ****ty there. In games though you can deliver proper mouse events and then it's easy as pan cake.

Blade_hunter
14th Sep 2008, 20:26
I think we should compare great systems and great games than DX 1 with DX 2, but it's my personal opinion, but perhaps the main reason is the fact most players play to both DX and the other games are an other experience for each one.

I think we should compare DX, SS2 and STALKER than comparing DX 1 and 2, because those games have all things to learn to each one than DX 1 with DX 2

In my opinion and Idea I don't want a game between DX 1 and 2, I want a better game than DX 1 and I think looking more to the best ideas from good and great games with great gameplay concepts will teach more things than looking to the mistakes of DX 2 for example and about DX 2 I think we should look to the little good improvements and good things than looking and focus to the bad and confirm the lead of DX 1 in the podium of the good things.

I think we can do better than the best, no ?

binlargin
14th Sep 2008, 21:22
Yes but we go far to the main subject, and with consoles we can use the joystick like a mouse controller, no ?
No. Console users don't want to use their joypads like a mouse, just like PC users don't want to use the mouse like a joypad.

Dragonlord
15th Sep 2008, 17:36
I think we should compare great systems and great games than DX 1 with DX 2, but it's my personal opinion, but perhaps the main reason is the fact most players play to both DX and the other games are an other experience for each one.

I think we should compare DX, SS2 and STALKER than comparing DX 1 and 2, because those games have all things to learn to each one than DX 1 with DX 2

In my opinion and Idea I don't want a game between DX 1 and 2, I want a better game than DX 1 and I think looking more to the best ideas from good and great games with great gameplay concepts will teach more things than looking to the mistakes of DX 2 for example and about DX 2 I think we should look to the little good improvements and good things than looking and focus to the bad and confirm the lead of DX 1 in the podium of the good things.

I think we can do better than the best, no ?

DX, SS2 and STALKER all use the same inventory type: Jigsaw Inventory. The difference are just a few parameters ( limited versus unlimited space; weight restricted or non-weight restricted; stackable versus non-stackable ). So there's not much sense in this comparison.

Blade_hunter
15th Sep 2008, 22:43
Jigsaw is by the view only like many inventories in Diablo like RPGs, And even SS2 likes (opened gameplay games included DX, Chrome, STALKER and many other games) that mix the two main genres FPS and RPG
An it's more about those parameters this thread wants to talk about. not about the main form Most inventories I suggested are Jigsaw inventories except the "linear"

And for me there much sense because each ones have interesting settings and chose the interesting on each ones

Those parameters are:
The fact if they are square based or weight based (All are square except Stalker)
The precision for square based or weight based (DX have some medium - low precision if I compare to all inventories I see)
The fact if any item can have a specific size or not(In DX the weapons have a size but not the rest)
The fact if the inventory have more than one rules for managing its items (DX uses two)
The fact if the inventory use one or more spaces for managing its items (DX have two)
The inventory size, very limited or with a good capacity (DX have a good capacity)
The inventory upgrades if it's upgradeable or not(DX not upgradeable Chrome and Stalker too)
The fact if all transportable items can be managed in the inventory (In DX all can be like the other games even if it have two spaces instead of the other games)
The fact if we have equipment zones or not (DX haven't this feature chrome too)
The fact if we have tool belts or not(DX uses this but its more a customization thing)
The fact if we can use limited items in a single pile (Chrome and DX have the same thing but chrome allows to make an other even if it's only with ammo boxes, the other items can't be piled like DX, Stalker use an overall limit and SS2 it seems to have no limit in a pile I don't tried to carry more than 500 bullets in this game)
If it have automanagement, rotating things for square based ones (I see automanagement in throne of darkness)

I think thats the main features

Dragonlord
16th Sep 2008, 16:32
The fact if they are square based or weight based (All are square except Stalker)
One has nothing to do with the other. Jigsaw inventories are square based by default. Other shapes make it a lot trickier to use ( for example hexagons ). Weight is an attribute of an item, not the inventory system.


The fact if any item can have a specific size or not(In DX the weapons have a size but not the rest)
All items have a specific size. Some just are 1x1 items whereas others need more.


The fact if the inventory use one or more spaces for managing its items (DX have two)
It has one. I guess what you mislabel as inventory is the "Quick Use Slots" which is an entire different beast.


The inventory upgrades if it's upgradeable or not(DX not upgradeable Chrome and Stalker too)
What you mean with upgradable? Changing the inventory parameters? Since if so stalker for example does change the rules depending on your stats.


The fact if we have equipment zones or not (DX haven't this feature chrome too)
The fact if we have tool belts or not(DX uses this but its more a customization thing)
"Quick Use Slots" and "Equipment Slots" are not "Inventory Slots". Those are three different entities usually grouped in the same GUI for accessibility. Inventory Slots provide storage ( hold items ). Quick Use Slots assign items to a shortcut ( hence they are a "binding" items but not providing "storage space" ) and Equipment Slots modify the character ( including his stats, again they "permanently activate" items but they do not provide "storage space" ).


If it have automanagement, rotating things for square based ones (I see automanagement in throne of darkness)
Some have this. It's though questionable. Since if you need auto-arrange to make an inventory usable then you most probably designed it weak. Stalker for example has some sort of auto-arrange and it's a pain since the items suddenly move around the inventory space for no obvious reasons. So auto-arrange should never be used if possible since most players ( especially well organized ones ) arrange their items in a specific order for overview or accessibility purpose. Auto-arrange disturbs this process.

Blade_hunter
16th Sep 2008, 19:50
And weight base is an inventory parameter, imagine all items takes visually one slot and uses the weight as a limit it stay the same as the stalker system without the jigsaw view even if I like the presentation

About item size it depends DX put all items / tools with the 1X1 size, included larger ones (armors, suits) and if we put all items at the 1x1 size we have the same thing used in DX 2 with 30 squares even if we keep the DX 1 design, I tried it in hardcore DX in easy mode.
Ok the armors have a low value in DX 1 and the inventory in DX was more made to limit the weaponry than the other items.

DX have two one for items / weapons the other for ammo, the ammo can't be moved or thrown because it uses the same rules as many FPS games but the management is resumed by the fact we can see how much ammo we have and what ammo is disposable or not

About inventory upgrades yes I forgot the fact we can use exoskeletons for that in stalker...

About equipment slots they aren't a proper inventory slot but it can provides an extra slot for something because the item is in your "hand" instead of the inventory, it's for that I consider it to be a sort of part of the inventory because all inventories with equipment slots uses the same space as the inventory.

And the toolbelt I never said it was an extra space for items, I said it was a more a customization thing, make shortcuts is a sort of customization?

About auto arrange I agree with you to this point, but I don't see inventory systems that needs auto arrange even on systems they were used. but this kind of thing when I tried it can be useful and sometimes totally disturbing

Dragonlord
17th Sep 2008, 02:22
DX have two one for items / weapons the other for ammo, the ammo can't be moved or thrown because it uses the same rules as many FPS games but the management is resumed by the fact we can see how much ammo we have and what ammo is disposable or not
Which is why it is not inventory but stats. You can keep track of what ammo you have and how much but not manage it. If so the ammo-counter on screen ( like in Quake for example ) would then be an inventory too but obviously it's not ( it's a stats counter for your weapons ammo stat ).


About inventory upgrades yes I forgot the fact we can use exoskeletons for that in stalker...
I meant more the maximal weight you can lift. You can alter this value using artifacts ( for example in stalker-cs you can lift at max 60kg before not moving anymore... with artifacts and an upgraded armor I can lift up to 125kg for example while still moving ).


About equipment slots they aren't a proper inventory slot but it can provides an extra slot for something because the item is in your "hand" instead of the inventory, it's for that I consider it to be a sort of part of the inventory because all inventories with equipment slots uses the same space as the inventory.
It depends. In JA2 for example the hands are an equipment slot which also acts as an inventory slot ( since what is in hands does not occupy your backpack ). Most games though do not mingle the two. So in DX for example equipping an armor still leaves it in the inventory. The same for typical RPG games like Oblivion. Which is why I keep them separate.


And the toolbelt I never said it was an extra space for items, I said it was a more a customization thing, make shortcuts is a sort of customization?
Sure. That's what it is for to allow the player to adjust the shortcuts to his liking.


About auto arrange I agree with you to this point, but I don't see inventory systems that needs auto arrange even on systems they were used. but this kind of thing when I tried it can be useful and sometimes totally disturbing
More disturbing than not in my experience. I would definitely not be fond of DX3 if it came with an auto-arranger... that is... if the inventory system doesn't boil down to what DX:IW had ( which has been next to non-existent due to lack of storage space ).

Blade_hunter
17th Sep 2008, 14:01
About inventories some can be managed and customized and some others not but they still inventories even if most informations are hidden.
In blood 2 you have an hidden inventory but it's customizable, and in duke nukem 3d we have a visual inventory (that can be hidden) that provides infos to know if a weapon is close to be full / empty and disposable or not.
A management can be only I use this weapon because I have lot of ammo instead of using a better weapon because the ammo is in less quantity and we save its ammo for harder tasks or it can be a need to find a weapon that use that ammo because it's full and the other weapons are low on ammo.
Since we try to save ammo we manage it, no ?

In DX 2 when we are low on "ammo" we use the pistol, a melee weapon or a grenade/mine and if we need a ranged power it can be a grenade or the pistol, but the choices are low even if we compare it with most FPS games (DX 2 isn't the only one that use uni ammo)

Dragonlord
17th Sep 2008, 18:32
I guess the understanding of "managing" is a bit different here. Sure the amount of ammo influences how a player acts but I would not consider it managing or inventory per se.

That said in DX:IW you did not need another weapon since all use the same ammunition. Changing weapon is more for the fun of it but not more. The universal ammo in fact killed a lot of the game.

Blade_hunter
17th Sep 2008, 19:55
In DX 2 the uni ammo killed the game yes because having a lot of weapons that use this ammo becomes useless and makes the weapons reduced on it's minimum, the only ranged alternative was the grenades or the mines, pretty restrictive for a system made basically to give more freedom to the player, I have a system to replace this even if it less and logical funny than truly separate ammo but it avoids the uni ammo defect (the fact one weapon is empty all were) it's an uni ammo item a sort of ammo that provides a little quantity of each ammo for all guns that can be disposable in the game, it gives the same advantage as the uni ammo without the main inconvenient of it.
I don't want that system, but I think it's better than the uni ammo itself were all weapons uses the same supply, my system is different, because it's an item that provides ammo for all guns but the guns have they own supply, and that's the main difference.

I prefer the original separate ammo of course for many reasons I said in other threads. because my system removes one challenge and it's the same as the uni ammo itself

Dragonlord
18th Sep 2008, 00:02
Nah, this makes it complicate like hell. Shared ammo but then again distinct? If it's ain't broken, don't fix it. They should stick to separate ammo.

Romeo
18th Sep 2008, 02:33
Oh I'm sorry, didn't someone tell you? There's this crazy "universal ammo" this time around. It accomidates all weapons. It makes more sense anyways, when you think about it.

Absentia
18th Sep 2008, 08:06
Blade Hunter, you seem to know exactly what youre talking about in your head but half the time I can't understand your use of English.

Blade_hunter
18th Sep 2008, 09:07
I know my English is pretty bad even if I try to be understood by the community, but I never said my English is good, My first language is the French and I don't know what is the worst thing for the community, writing French in an English forum, or write English even if it's bad ?
For me it's difficult and I don't know if my English is better than my first coming or not.

And I don't say I want a system that acts like uni ammo even the idea I show in the post (I don't remember if I posted it in an other post) because I prefer orginal multiple ammo

About the system I don't see any complication, it's just an item that gives for example: 1 rocket, 4 sniper bullets, 5 shotshells, 10 assault rifle bullets, etc.
And when your sniper rifle is empty you have always an alternate ranged weapon.
this item has one rule, one model and the weapons stay independent from each others.

I don't say I want that system, but I preferred to see that in DX 2 than the uni ammo even if THE BEST SYSTEM IS SEPARATE AMMO and I want separate ammo boxes!

DXeXodus
18th Sep 2008, 09:14
I believe your English has improved a lot since I first started reading your posts a while back.

Maybe I have just developed the ability to understand you over time though :)

But I agree, Bad English on an English forum is much better than French on an English forum. :thumbsup:
Your English will improve a lot over time as it already has, so keep it up.

Blade_hunter
18th Sep 2008, 12:12
I think some persons have some courage to read some posts wrote by my hands because even if I try to make paragraphs to make my texts easier to read. Read a long text with a lot of faults is sort of challenge, I try to learn how to write better for myself and for the community.
I have sometimes difficulties to understand correctly some posts but it's due to my vocabulary...

Dragonlord
18th Sep 2008, 17:36
And I don't say I want a system that acts like uni ammo even the idea I show in the post (I don't remember if I posted it in an other post) because I prefer orginal multiple ammo
So what you are after there is a sort of "factory" item ( sort of like a land in Magic you can tap for one of possible mana types ). Sounds like a possibility but then again ( now for the uni-lover as your sig seems to indicate :D ) why making things complicate if there is a working and simple solution?

Mr. Perfect
21st Oct 2008, 00:37
I looked through the What Rene said. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80786) thread and didn't see any mention of how inventory would be handled. People have posted that it will be the DX1 style inventory, but since they didn't point out their source it doesn't really carry much weight. Was there official word on this somewhere?

DXeXodus
21st Oct 2008, 03:52
It has been officially said that there will be inventory management again, as opposed to the DX2 style. Don't have a quote for you but I know it has been officially said.

Jerion
21st Oct 2008, 09:19
Yay for jordan_a! :whistle:

I'm happy that we have inventory management again. :)

Mr. Perfect
22nd Oct 2008, 02:48
It has been officially said that there will be inventory management again, as opposed to the DX2 style. Don't have a quote for you but I know it has been officially said.

What works for me! :cool:

That should be fun(in a crazy, RPG way). I was always scheming to figure out how to fit all the best goodies in the inventory when playing DX1, and it was rewarding when it felt like you had pulled one over on the inventory. :D

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 03:45
An easy fix for the common "inventory Tetris" complaint of DX1's inventory system would be to simply standardize the number of inventory spaces that large weapons consume. None of this mess with having some weapons take three spaces, some four, some two rows, some are square, yadd yadda. Screw that. Make 'em all the same.

DXeXodus
22nd Oct 2008, 04:04
Merged with latest inventory thread :thumbsup:

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 04:56
The "Universal inventory with separate spaces" looks good.
drag and drop for PC. The belt hot key system was nice to. It gives you quick access by hot key or mouse wheel.

"Universal inventory with separate spaces"
tab type system to move by item for console (tap direction and it goes to the item in that direction)?


Thought I'd mention the aiming system will be important on console.
1) An auto aim with precision body aiming is one possibility. locks on to center mass and moving the joystick moves the aim off center to head, arms, legs.. It makes a hit box and lets the player move the aim inside the box. This would be a winner with area damage.

3) button for fine aim. get close and hold button for slow more accurate adjustments.

2) 2 control zones outer course aim inner zone becomes more precise when npc is in crosshairs. The outer zone insures that npc's aren't sticky spots.

GmanPro
28th Oct 2008, 23:53
I was a fan of the Deus Ex 1 inventory system, similar to Diablo and NWN1 style. But I also like inventories where everything takes up the same amount of space (1 square on the grid), like Baldur's Gate. Although this system has some flaws as obviously a small topaz shouldn't take up as much space as a halberd, but you had things like gem bags to hold all the little things. The Witcher had a system similar to this, and it was split into two sections, 1 for you basic items, and another specifically for alchemical ingredients, and I thought this was a pretty good idea too.

Bottom line is that maybe some inventory systems are more appropriate for certain games than others but in the end, even if I don't really like the way my inventory works in a game, I eventually learn to get used to it. I just hope that they don't add weight limits, they don't really seem to fit into FPS style gameplay IMO.

spm1138
29th Oct 2008, 00:15
In retrospect DX's inventory stuff was a fiddly carry-over from earlier RPG games.

I could never work out what the grid was supposed to represent or why I had to stack stuff a particular way up like Tetris.

JC didn't carry a large rectangular shipping crate around with him :D

Didn't like IW's either because it failed to differentiate between small stuff and big.

I think I'd probably like a number of slots differentiated between item sizes the largest of which would generally be weapons and the smallest of which would generally be ammo.

Really big items could eat two slots.

Somewhere to store your spare gear might be interesting (a hold-all or a locker)?

DXeXodus
29th Oct 2008, 03:51
They have mentioned that inventory management would return. I doubt that they would repeat anything similar to Invisible War. Perhaps something more like STALKER where one has a block based inventory but item mass is what plays the important role. For instance, the player (by default) can carry 50kg of equipment (maybe more with augs). Every 'storable' item has a certain mass which will take up the players weight limit. I think this will work nicely, especially for those who don't like the Tetris style inventory. Also, you can carry more than the weight limit but you will move slower, won't be able to jump and will become fatigued very quickly. Just seems like a much more realistic method IMO.

Blade_hunter
4th Nov 2008, 16:02
I'm come back :D

Yes an inventory must be easy to manage, since if we can move the items inside the space allowed in the inventory with ease

When I propose to manage the ammo in the same space with the weapons and the other items it seems to be problematic to many players .....
many inventories propose that but I won't talk again about that now

the resource system space, weight based, geometric forms or only based in a numeric value.
the thing I think is we should propose an alternative to the DX system

after a big thinking about that next time I will explain better a rule therm in a global system because I must agree with one bug point it's the fact i know what I want to talk about a specific rule but if the community misunderstand the "rule" hum ...

But I will finish with a question.

What is the easiest and hardest inventory ever used in a game (inventory with a management of course.)

DXeXodus
5th Nov 2008, 03:56
Blade_hunter! You are back! Where did you go? Was getting a bit worried about you :)

You disappeared as soon as the information for DX3 was released.

Welcome back though :thumbsup:

Blade_hunter
5th Nov 2008, 09:26
Yes but I need to do some important things and I don't know what is the news about the next DX :/

And thanks :)