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Herr Trigger
27th Aug 2008, 14:47
My favorite ending for DX1 has always been the Helios ending and ever since finishing the first game I've had an idea of JC as deus ex machina; a literal technological god.

My reasoning goes something like this -
As a normal human, with the average comprehension and processing power of the human brain (which some people say we only use 10% of anyways), a nanoaugmented agent is capable of basic "superhuman" feats. Simple things like improved strength, enhanced speed, and partial balistic shields are all skills everyone can wrap thier minds around. When you merge with an AI, however, your abilities are elevated because your comprehension and capacity to control your nanomachines are also elevated. One of the few things I liked about IW was that JC changed the weather around Liberty Island at the end. It made me imagine that Helios was allowing JC to micromanage every single nanobot in his body. It irked me that I could kill this man with godlike abilities with a few sniper shots, but the point of this post is not to dwell on my dislike of IW.

In summary: JC is a badass and woe be unto those in his way.

One of the more favorable possibilities, IMO, for the new game would be to play as someone other than JC. It doesn't have to be a Denton clone, but obviously you would have nanoaugmentations of your own. Even though you don't play as JC, he would still be a prominent figure in the universe and your paths would cross often.

Imagine you are on an early mission with the standard DX format; chosing between assaut, stealth, or a mix thereof based on your playstyle and skills. You complete an objective and are ready to head back to base, home, ect., when you are confronted by a colossal robotic sentry. Seeing as how this is still early in the game and your augs are not capable of defeating this enemy, you brace yourself for a missile enema. Mere seconds before a rocket obliterates you, a translucent blue shield comprised only of nano machines stretches the width of the street and you suffer no damage. Cue JC. In a fantastic ingame cinematic, simialr to the HL2 Dog/strider fight, JC moves to meele range in a blink and rips a leg off the homicidal machine with his bare hands and fries the rest of it's circuits with a quick yet overwhelming electrical blast.

That's just one scenario, but there are far greater feats that I beleive he should achieve; such as being able to fashion weapons or other necessities from the remains of the robot just by being able to alter the scrap metal on an atomic level.

I know this is way out there, but if JC is the only one capable of pulling this stuff off because of the helios AI, then we can still watch godlike feats made possible by the nanoaugs and the player continues the game at his own pace and style, which is what made DX great in the first place. This would also give players that are new to the series an idea of the scope and potiential power of nanoaugmentations, and give them an understanding of why they are so prevalent in society and why those vying for power want to control them.

Anyways, I wanted to know what other people thought about the possibility of JC returning as a complete badass in the next game.

imported_van_HellSing
27th Aug 2008, 14:54
...


So you want JC to become even more Superman than he is in IW (Fortress of Solitude, hurrr).

Stop gaying up my DX.

Herr Trigger
27th Aug 2008, 14:57
...


So you want JC to become even more Superman than he is in IW (Fortress of Solitude, hurrr).

Stop gaying up my DX.

Not so much with the spandex, thanks, and I hated IW so I could care less what was in that game. I just think the amount of power he wields after he merges with the Helios AI is underrated.

Edit - I take it back. I do care that Denton was able to change the weather in IW, but I don't care about most of it.

Fen
27th Aug 2008, 15:06
JC doesnt become superman after he merges with helios. He becomes more of a supercomputer. Able to govern the world by combining the logic of an advanced AI and the morals of a human.

GruntOwner
27th Aug 2008, 15:18
... human brain (which some people say we only use 10% of anyways)...

Some people are very wrong. That other 90% is looking after your heart rate and other subconcious functions, including senses. Also, If JC can move the nanites in the air to form a protective field, please tell me why he isn't either taking the bot apart molecule by molecule or hacking it then moving some nanites to form a shell of himself, kinda like at the end of matrix revoltions talking to the machines. If JC were to feature so actively it would quickly become a movie. A movie where God himself is on your speed dial and is ready to air strike anywhere you need at a whim. Even if he has to hide behind some subtelty bull, it's still nanotech. You don't get more subtle. Frankly, JC became even less of a badass in IW, so they couldn't really do any worse than it, but still.

Edit: Gieven the usual context of fanservice and the fact that augmentations are effectively implants, you really should look into changing the title... Not that I had my hopes up or anything...

Herr Trigger
27th Aug 2008, 15:49
Also, If JC can move the nanites in the air to form a protective field, please tell me why he isn't either taking the bot apart molecule by molecule or hacking it then moving some nanites to form a shell of himself, kinda like at the end of matrix revoltions talking to the machines. If JC were to feature so actively it would quickly become a movie. A movie where God himself is on your speed dial and is ready to air strike anywhere you need at a whim.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, and let me just say that what I posted was just made up on the fly as an example. First, I don't believe that JC would have much of an inclination to be a hero at this point so I don't want to make it seem like he's swooping in to save the day. If there were a situation like I described, he would probably only be helping because there is a gain to be made towards his goals in keeping you alive. Also, as it was just an example I cooked up, he could pretty much do whatever he wanted to the robot and I would be happy as long as there were flashy lights and loud noises to distract me.


Gieven the usual context of fanservice and the fact that augmentations are effectively implants, you really should look into changing the title... Not that I had my hopes up or anything...

Ah.... I can see how that could be misconstrued, but I can't see any way to change the thread title. :confused:

Herr Trigger
27th Aug 2008, 15:52
JC doesnt become superman after he merges with helios. He becomes more of a supercomputer. Able to govern the world by combining the logic of an advanced AI and the morals of a human.

I may have been wrong, since it's been a while since I played IW, but was he the one responsible for changing the weather on Liberty Island? If so, I would consider that close to superhuman and would say that there is more that he is capable of.

K^2
27th Aug 2008, 18:36
Imagine you are on an early mission with the standard DX format; chosing between assaut, stealth, or a mix thereof based on your playstyle and skills. You complete an objective and are ready to head back to base, home, ect., when you are confronted by a colossal robotic sentry. Seeing as how this is still early in the game and your augs are not capable of defeating this enemy, you brace yourself for a missile enema. Mere seconds before a rocket obliterates you, a translucent blue shield comprised only of nano machines stretches the width of the street and you suffer no damage. Cue JC. In a fantastic ingame cinematic, simialr to the HL2 Dog/strider fight, JC moves to meele range in a blink and rips a leg off the homicidal machine with his bare hands and fries the rest of it's circuits with a quick yet overwhelming electrical blast.
So basically you want the game to justify its title? Act of God (The whole trinity in fact: Helios, J.C., and the holy nanites) saving the protagonist from a completely hopeless situation.

I don't think it is such a good idea.

DXeXodus
28th Aug 2008, 04:18
Herr Trigger, I changed the title for you. if you would like it named something else then just ask me.

I like the idea of JC playing a more prominent role in DX3, but I am not sure if it can be done properly after what I saw in IW without it being cheezy. Maybe JC should just become a legend. One who people always talk of but never meet.

Often the build up to something, or the thought thereof can be greater than it's realization.

Herr Trigger
28th Aug 2008, 14:00
I like the idea of JC playing a more prominent role in DX3, but I am not sure if it can be done properly after what I saw in IW without it being cheezy. Maybe JC should just become a legend. One who people always talk of but never meet.

Often the build up to something, or the thought thereof can be greater than it's realization.

I'm afraid I'm not altogether against against cheese so it might not bother me that much.
I'm a big fan of the first game, but the improvements I had hoped they would make in IW never happened. I want to preface what I'm about to say with this, these are just nit-picks I have with the first game and in no way am I saying that it makes it any less of a great game, but there were some short-commings; most were the product of the antiquated engine. One situation where the Unreal engine couldn't live up to my expectations was during the fight against Simons. All through the game he was this nano-aug'ed, monotone, sociopath who was supposedly superior to you but after the dialouge is over and the fight starts, he just runs around like a normal enemy shooting you with the plasma gun.

DX1 had a good story with convincing actors and dialouge, but it is an older game and the engine used put a lot of restrictions on the action and animation. A lot like a very good book that is turned into a horrible movie because it has a crap director or actor, if DX3 continues using static camera angles in conversations with only head nods and slight arm gestures then the story will be stymied by it's presentation.

Sorry if I've moved off topic, but this is one reason why I'd like to see JC accomplishing Godlike feats. The most complex thing you'd see him do in DX1 is running toward the camera away from an explosion.

Freddo
28th Aug 2008, 14:26
In Deus Ex JC was blank. A very neutral person, and it's kinda up to the player to put a personality on him. And if he's put in the game, I think many DX fans will react on that he isn't like "their" JC, and that they gonna feel it's a very cheap & cheesy appearance.

Besides, he had his 15 minutes of fame anyway. I think it would be better if the game story focused on something new instead of the Denton saga.

If any of the Dentons are in the game, I think it's better if it's Paul. But even then it would probably be better if it was just a minor dialogue appearance.

Here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=76389) is another thread about the same thing, kinda.

imported_van_HellSing
28th Aug 2008, 14:32
Exactly. To someone playing DX using stealth all the way through, JC ripping off a robot's leg would be quite inappropriate.


Anyway, the point is moot since the game's a prequel, so we won't have a chance to see tricked-out JC. :rasp:

Herr Trigger
28th Aug 2008, 14:49
In Deus Ex JC was blank. A very neutral person, and it's kinda up to the player to put a personality on him.

I never really felt JC had much of a personality per se. Nor could I really add one myself. As Jaime notes in the training level, JC and Paul are indistinguishable from the populace except that they are unable to smile. JC is also very monotone like Simons. Paul had more emphasis and passion in his voice. The only differences I really noticed in JC's dialouge options were moral in nature and not really his personality. Most had you chosing between intimidating someone or coercing them.


Exactly. To someone playing DX using stealth all the way through, JC ripping off a robot's leg would be quite inappropriate.

I think that if the devs game him that measure of power, even if he used to be primarily stealth driven, his tactics may have changed.

Or even, as someone else suggested, you can have the oportunity to relay to the game early on how you played and finished the original game, and those choices could influence interactions later on. In the example given earlier, you are confronted by the robot and, before it kills you, it just shuts down. You find out that JC was cloaked and just walked up behind the thing and gave it a nice EMP shot.

drummindog
29th Aug 2008, 11:23
If it is a prequel, maybe let's look at Paul's life and the missions he went on before Unatco decided he was a loose cannon. I'd like to keep it science fictiony, but also grounded somewhat within reality as well.

As far as JC goes, It'd be cool to see him from time to time in the game if it can be written in well enough. Not sure how that would be accomplished though. From what I recall about DX1, it seems that it starts from the time JC was brought "online", so I am not sure if this wish can really be written in.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Aug 2008, 11:51
.... able to govern the world by combining the logic of an advanced AI and the morals of a human.

That is the worrying bit, lol... we are so flawed. :D

Zegano
9th Sep 2008, 03:50
Its funny, when I first merged with Helios, I figured that JC wouldn't be the God, Helios would be. I mean, Helios needs JC to understand humanity, so I thought that it would use him as a benchmark for the rest of mankind and an avatar of his will (one with admittedly huge power), but it didn't occur to me that they would become a totally singular entity.


Anyway, the point is moot since the game's a prequel, so we won't have a chance to see tricked-out JC. :rasp:

Why are you so convinced that its a prequel? I mean, all proof towards it is circumstantial. It really just depends on how you spin the evidence.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Sep 2008, 03:54
I'm not totally convinced, that's why I put the smiley there. But I really think the teaser is pointing at a prequel.

Also, I really hope the game is a prequel.

Spiffmeister
9th Sep 2008, 07:58
If it's a prequel to DX1 J.C. might not be in it, or could be in a test tube just like alex was in the original.

I'm sure Edios has already got a storyline at the ready though.

El_Bel
9th Sep 2008, 08:32
Alex was not in the test tube in the original...

imported_van_HellSing
9th Sep 2008, 08:41
I really don't care if JC or Paul or whatever member of their family is in the game. What is this, a soap opera? The Denton Dynasty?

pewbeng
9th Sep 2008, 08:45
"Sometimes you wanna go, where everybody knows your name..." :whistle:

DXeXodus
9th Sep 2008, 09:50
Alex was not in the test tube in the original...

There was a tube in area 51 containing Alex Denton.

El_Bel
9th Sep 2008, 11:15
He was just a hologram. Try the vision aug on him! Its says no target, while the other two clones say "jc clones". And this was in all the versions of the game(ps2 included) so it cant be a glitch.

gamer0004
9th Sep 2008, 11:31
He was just a hologram. Try the vision aug on him! Its says no target, while the other two clones say "jc clones". And this was in all the versions of the game(ps2 included) so it cant be a glitch.

Interesting... I knew it wasn't "real", but I thought you had to cheat to find out...

Herr Trigger
10th Sep 2008, 12:33
I really don't care if JC or Paul or whatever member of their family is in the game. What is this, a soap opera? The Denton Dynasty?


I would have absolutely no problem with a Denton Dynasty.

It just comes down to how much you like them. Personally, I enjoyed DX1 primarily because of the Denton Brothers, and I disliked DX:IW because of the protagonist feeling decidedly non-denton.

I even went so far as to be a huge nerd and cosplay as JC for a Con once. The only problem was that people kept asking me why I was dressed as Neo at a gaming convention. :(

LatwPIAT
10th Sep 2008, 13:04
Please, no. As much as I want to see JC rip the leg of a Sentry, I also want to be completely badass myself. I don't want JC to do something for me, I want to do it myself. With the exception of escaping Hell's Kitchen together with Paul, I always did things myself, and even then I had to help. I want to fight my own battles, I want to be the cool guy.

Herr Trigger
10th Sep 2008, 13:10
Please, no. As much as I want to see JC rip the leg of a Sentry, I also want to be completely badass myself. I don't want JC to do something for me, I want to do it myself. With the exception of escaping Hell's Kitchen together with Paul, I always did things myself, and even then I had to help. I want to fight my own battles, I want to be the cool guy.

Ah, but the scenario I gave was only at the beginning of the game when you are just starting out. By the end of the game, you can both be complete badasses and have one wicked fight. :nut:

urban_queen41
12th Sep 2008, 09:51
I didn't like Helios-JC....he didn't look or sound like our JC, the JC we knew in DX1. As much as I really would love JC to be in DX3, if it's a sequel I don't want him to be there. I don't want his character to be...ruined, I guess.
I think DX1 JC was a good balance of human and super-human...giving him even more pwnsome powers than he already has would almost turn him into an Edward Cullen. And I do NOT like Edward Cullen.

Herr Trigger
16th Sep 2008, 12:31
I didn't like Helios-JC....he didn't look or sound like our JC, the JC we knew in DX1. As much as I really would love JC to be in DX3, if it's a sequel I don't want him to be there. I don't want his character to be...ruined, I guess.
I think DX1 JC was a good balance of human a:scratch: nd super-human...giving him even more pwnsome powers than he already has would almost turn him into an Edward Cullen. And I do NOT like Edward Cullen.

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Edward Cullen? :scratch: