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DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 10:03
Deus Ex 1 had you playing as JC Denton, who is a male (As I'm sure you all know), but in Deus Ex 2 one could choose between the male and female variants of Alex Denton. I never personally played as a female Alex in any of my 3-4 playthroughs of the game. Did it have an effect on the game in way?

Regardless of that. Should Deus Ex 3 allow one to choose your gender? And should it have an impact on the game in terms of the way others interact with you, abilities, etc? Men are naturally better at some things, whereas woman are better at others. Should this be represented in game and integrated into character choice and developement?

I like the idea of being able to choose your gender as it is fair on the female gamers to be able to play as character representing their gender. I am not too sure, however, whether the difference should be more than player aesthetics and voice sounds. What is your opinion on this?

PS: Please don't let this degenerate into a gender flame war. We have a few female gamers amongst us here so be nice to one another :)

PPS: If there is already a thread about this then please let me know so I can merge them.

jordan_a
27th Aug 2008, 11:16
Being able to choose the gender in DX2 was a very good idea since after all you were just a clone.

DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 11:21
Being able to choose the gender in DX2 was a very good idea since after all you were just a clone.

I agree. The only gripe I had with it was that you saw Alex in the Vita-chamber in Area 51 at the end of DX1 and it was most definitely a male body.
But I suppose that it doesn't really matter, as it was just cool to be able to choose gender in IW.

imported_van_HellSing
27th Aug 2008, 12:10
Well the concept of a female clone of male JC is awkward to begin with.

Probably a trannie. :nut:

rokstrombo
27th Aug 2008, 12:35
I only played through Invisible War as a female, so I don't know how much the game was affected by this choice (I would imagine not much).

In my opinion, unless the choice affects the story or gameplay in meaningful ways then I don't think it would be worth including in the next game. Alex was quite androgynous, so the choice was arbitrary for most players.

If gender were a theme of Invisible War, on the other hand...

Absentia
27th Aug 2008, 13:34
Good thread!

I don't think gender would change a great deal of things, but it might make NPC's attitudes toward you slightly different. As far as significant changes go, I guess it might be a cool idea to have a certain point in the game where the male and female characters have a minor (but noticeable) difference, just to add a little bit of replay value or something - assuming DX3 should have lots of replay value anyway due to the whole freedom element. That comment that jordan made (that freedom is a big element) when he visited Eidos Montreal has stuck in my head whenever i think about DX3...

I think the female/male idea is a good one, and makes the game a bit more accessible to role-playing fans as well. If it's one thing this game could benefit from, it's some more accessibility, and no I'm not advocating the dumbing-down of it, because IW was dumbed down and it was a commercial flop in comparison.
But yeah, one of the things I did enjoy about the game was that you could be male or female, and the unisex name like Alex. Consider this though: If the trailer is solid evidence to go by (which it isnt) then then its possible that the central character is called Emile, which as far as I know is only a male name...Unless they make it either Emile or Emily, and then have to re-record every line of voice acting which addresses the player by his/her name.

ikenstein
27th Aug 2008, 13:47
it could be a good idea. some skills could work better for girls, like the seduction skill in bloodlines. but girls have a really ilogical way of thinking about stuff. so, maybe a femail char could have better persuasion skills but be rubbish at electronics.

Herr Trigger
27th Aug 2008, 13:57
I love character development and interaction when it comes to games and their plots. A good example would be the Knights of the Old republic series. One of the ways your gender influences the story in KotoR is if/who you have romance subplots with. If this sort of character interaction pops up in DX3 I would be pleased.

There is also the old saying "If I'm going to stare at someone's ass for a few days while I'm playing this game, it might as well be a hot chick."

gamer0004
27th Aug 2008, 14:25
it could be a good idea. some skills could work better for girls, like the seduction skill in bloodlines. but girls have a really ilogical way of thinking about stuff. so, maybe a femail char could have better persuasion skills but be rubbish at electronics.

Talking about stereotypes :lol:

Anyway, the only difference I am aware of was the minister of culture and his penthouse. The minister asks you to be his chamberboy if you are a male, he won't invite you when you are a girl...

Fen
27th Aug 2008, 14:52
Im all for allowing the players to choose their gender. It means if someone is either female, or wishes to pretend to be a female, they can. However Im against different stats and storylines for different genders. It should purely be an asthetic choice. Just how you could choose what colour skin and hair your character had. It can help a lot with immmersion and make your character feel more like yours.

imported_van_HellSing
27th Aug 2008, 14:59
Different stats, no. Different NPC interactions, yes. I don't mean shoehorning sexist seduction options for a female protagonist or stuff like that, I'm talking more about how other characters react to you.

Voltaire
27th Aug 2008, 15:01
I think that a gender recognition from NPCs would help the immersion of the game. Remember in DX1 where the two female hustlers (Mercedes and someone else... it'll come to me) outside Lucky Money got in for less money than you? This kind of thing would be realistic to me. Or, hypothetically, a fat old veteran who sells armaments marking up the prices for a female character in a kind of "Girls shouldn't shoot" type of mindset.

But I don't think that inherent character stats should change due to gender, as has been suggested, nor should it be a dominant feature.

DXeXodus
28th Aug 2008, 04:32
The concept of male/female character selection should be retained. I agree. I also think that it should not make any difference to your actual abilities. The female protagonist should be equally as strong, clever, funny, accurate, etc as the male protagonist.

Maybe the female version of the character could however, be forced to endure several stereotypical situations that are realistic however. Such as when you walk past a male grunt he will make a pass at you, or when you open your locker you find some other soldier at HQ has rigged it with a 'PlaySoldier' magazine or something (followed by everyone else laughing at you). The woman however, could have an advantage in the way that neutral/semi-hostile characters (such as a mugger) will underestimate them. Thus allowing a 'cool' moment to follow when you beat him and his three buddies down with flick of the wrist. :cool:

K^2
28th Aug 2008, 05:00
Talking about stereotypes
Males and Females think differently. It's not a stereotype. Females tend to be better with social interaction, while males tend to be better at applying logic. There are several other measures of intellect in which both genders are equal on average. However, there is also more variation in male intellect levels. That means that there are more smart men, but also more very dumb men.

The problem with sexism manifests when stereotypes are applied towards individuals. Equal treatment and equal opportunities are a good idea, but that doesn't mean accepting that both genders are actually the same. They vary in physiology (more obviously in some ways than others) and psychology. And recognizing that fact is not stereotyping or sexism.

gamer0004
28th Aug 2008, 12:22
Males and Females think differently.

I know that...


It's not a stereotype.

Yes it is, because not all women are like that nor are all men.

AaronJ
28th Aug 2008, 13:42
I don't want the protagonist in DX3 to be female solely because of the engine.

imported_van_HellSing
28th Aug 2008, 13:46
What the hell?

Freddo
28th Aug 2008, 14:18
Warren Spector once said in an interview that he wanted to make a female gender for the first Deus Ex, but that they scrapped that idea because of all the extra dialogue that needed to be recoreded.

I think it should be possible to choose the gender in Deus Ex 3, but I don't think there should be any big difference between the two. Just some insignificant dialogue changes here and there that spice things up a bit, but doesn't really change the gameplay.

Herr Trigger
28th Aug 2008, 14:33
I think it would be interesting if your abilities changed slightly based on your gender. If you're a male you might find it easier to go the assault, brute force route and you may have increased natural strength (obviously a female with augmented strength would be as strong as a male), and if you're a female you might be a better infiltrator with more agility and speed. Sort of a Navarre/Hermann complex.

Then again, if they let you chose your body type/build your gender would be irrelevant. Instead of the traditional roles, you could be a scrawny male nerd or a really buff female soldier.

imported_van_HellSing
28th Aug 2008, 15:12
Then again, if they let you chose your body type/build[...]

Now this is getting ridiculous. Next thing you know, we'll be discussing shoe sizes.

foxberg
28th Aug 2008, 15:29
Different stats, no. Different NPC interactions, yes. I don't mean shoehorning sexist seduction options for a female protagonist or stuff like that, I'm talking more about how other characters react to you.

This is exactly what I was going to write. I would only add that if you're playing as a girl NPCs would be ably to "smack that ***** up!"

Herr Trigger
28th Aug 2008, 15:30
Now this is getting ridiculous. Next thing you know, we'll be discussing shoe sizes.

Just as long as they're redshoes

;)

K^2
28th Aug 2008, 19:34
Now this is getting ridiculous. Next thing you know, we'll be discussing shoe sizes.
Nano-augmentation type: Black market.
Slot: Feet.
Effect: Allows you to wear shoes of bigger size.

pauldenton
28th Aug 2008, 20:10
I think it is a BIG waste of resources making two genders, the huge amount of extra work needed would not be worthwhile when they could be put into making the game a better longer game with just a single characture.

This takes freedom to choose a little too far as it cuts deep into game developement resources, for what i feel is little - if any, gaming benefit.

mouse
28th Aug 2008, 20:57
Yes, doing both genders is a waste of ressources... just do only the female!

Different dialog options are a nice idea, though it wasn't used much in DXIW. I only remember two times - the Culture minister and the hiring of Sid. Sid will give you a discount on the flights (which is rather useless of course as you can go for free **** )

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Aug 2008, 21:55
Hehe, amusing thread, I laughed at the foot augmentation idea and bigger sized shoe... or high heels even, lol. :D

Anyway, I pretty much agree with what has already been said about it being a waste of resources.
As a keen (female) gamer myself, it doesn't make any difference whether the lead character I play is male or female.
What's important to me is the structure of the game and the interesting storyline that unfolds. If its good, I really don't give a hoot what I look like or what I'm wearing. :p

K^2
29th Aug 2008, 01:32
I think it is a BIG waste of resources making two genders, the huge amount of extra work needed would not be worthwhile when they could be put into making the game a better longer game with just a single characture.
Now, I agree that if it is quite a bit of extra work, then it isn't worth it. And I'd be perfectly happy with the protagonist being either gender.

But is it really that much work? Ok, so you have to double the number of protagonist recordings. But its a different actor doing the voice, so it really doesn't waste time. Extra work writing different dialogs? Writers already have to write multiple lines for different events. These little things, like Templar leader reminding you that you already joined the Templars. They are there for flavor, and adding extra variation for gender when appropriate isn't going to change the work load. What else? Different models? The artists will need to do at least 50 different NPC models. Some for important characters, others for various soldiers, and some more for bystanders. Is a second protagonist model going to make a difference? Not really.

All in all, selectable gender gives you marginal improvement at a marginal increase of development effort.

minus0ne
29th Aug 2008, 02:12
All in all, selectable gender gives you marginal improvement at a marginal increase of development effort.
While I agree that the game should be multi-gender, the whole issue of this thread is if and how gender choice should impact gameplay. That means rewriting dialogue (even adding and subtracting certain dialogue), so unless the female protagonist says the exact same thing the male protagonist says (which seems a bit ackward) it'll add quite a bit of writing and voice work.

K^2
29th Aug 2008, 03:07
IW worked well enough with nearly identical dialog for both. That is, the fact that Alex' dialog didn't change much wasn't any part of the game's problems.

Now, the topic asks how the gender choice should impact the game. I don't think it should be in dialog. A few changes here and there would be nice, but that's all it needs. What it should alter, slightly, is the gameplay balance itself. You might not notice it much, but tiny changes in character's speed, jumping heights, etc., make you adjust your tactics and behavior. If devs manage to balance different ways of playing the game with a "neutral" character, than these small changes might already offset the balance.

minus0ne
29th Aug 2008, 05:15
IW worked well enough with nearly identical dialog for both. That is, the fact that Alex' dialog didn't change much wasn't any part of the game's problems.
But it sort of breaks the immersion when all NPCs interact with you in the same, neutral manner. Let's say DX1 had gender-choice (for the sake of argument, of course): wouldn't Anna Navarre and Gunther treat a Julie Catherine Denton differently? A faux flirting Gunther comes to mind :nut:


Now, the topic asks how the gender choice should impact the game. I don't think it should be in dialog. A few changes here and there would be nice, but that's all it needs. What it should alter, slightly, is the gameplay balance itself. You might not notice it much, but tiny changes in character's speed, jumping heights, etc., make you adjust your tactics and behavior. If devs manage to balance different ways of playing the game with a "neutral" character, than these small changes might already offset the balance.
I think the impact should move beyond just stats and into NPC interaction/reaction and dialogue. IW had one or two 'female exclusive' quest approaches, they should try to take that further. It'd also boost replayability considerably.

At least we're having this discussion at the right moment, as the voice recording is one of the last things to be done in game development :p

Herr Trigger
29th Aug 2008, 13:24
I think it is a BIG waste of resources making two genders, the huge amount of extra work needed would not be worthwhile when they could be put into making the game a better longer game with just a single characture.

This takes freedom to choose a little too far as it cuts deep into game developement resources, for what i feel is little - if any, gaming benefit.

I personally feel that, even if adding a new gender to the game stretched the dev's resources, it would be time and money better spent than stretching out the game with a single character. Adding another gender and all the changes that might come with it would give the game more replay value. If it came down to playing a few extra hours on my first go through or playing the entire game one or even two more times I would go with the extra gender. Even though I will probably buy DX3 "no questions asked", a good replay value makes the purchase feel that much more justified.

gamer0004
29th Aug 2008, 16:15
IW worked well enough with nearly identical dialog for both. That is, the fact that Alex' dialog didn't change much wasn't any part of the game's problems.


You do remember that most people thought Alex D was, and I quote, "Lame"?

Mindmute
29th Aug 2008, 16:48
Is a second protagonist model going to make a difference? Not really.

That isn't the only thing they'd need to do EVEN if all the dialogues lines would stay the same. There's still the matter of hiring a voice actress with a voice and tone to fit the personality of the character (and the players' expectations) aswell as recording all of her lines.

Red
29th Aug 2008, 18:01
...which of course doubles the precious megabytes of speech instead of an awesome <insert word(s) here>.

<new level>
<more weapons>
<textures of higher quality>
e
t
c
.
.
.

Jerion
29th Aug 2008, 19:06
The size of the game isn't a terribly important issue, and the graphics card doesn't have anything to do with audio, so they can use up as many megabytes as they want for audio. Within reason, of course (no .aif, keep it in .ogg or something similar please!) Being able to adjust the audio quality would reduce how much RAM it takes up for slower machines.

K^2
29th Aug 2008, 22:55
You do remember that most people thought Alex D was, and I quote, "Lame"?
Sure, but it had nothing to do with the gender uncertainty. You could have taken the entire DX, made protagonist female, keep nearly all the same lines, and it wouldn't be a worse game for it.

Larington
30th Aug 2008, 07:09
What I think is interesting about the dislike for Alex Denton, is that it often seems to start with the comedy box art of a 'gansta' style of holding the pistol and then devolves at the dialogue point where some of the dialogue lines are trying to make the character sound tough even for no real good reason... Where-as, take a look at some of the lines you could use on the thug threatening that lady in an alley early on [in DX1] (Was it sandra?) and yikes.

The difference is astounding.

Red
30th Aug 2008, 14:04
The size of the game isn't a terribly important issue, and the graphics card doesn't have anything to do with audio, so they can use up as many megabytes as they want for audio. Within reason, of course (no .aif, keep it in .ogg or something similar please!) Being able to adjust the audio quality would reduce how much RAM it takes up for slower machines.

S'pose you have, let's say, 2 hours of speech only for the main character -> that is roughly 250MB worth of compressed MP3 format. Soooo, if you want a female character, next to the male one, you'd have to have her speech also included, which brings us yet another 250MB. That's a waste of resources... Since you have to pay for recording, the voice actor, editing etc... Time, space & money could be better spent on more content/quality.

imported_van_HellSing
30th Aug 2008, 15:22
OK, let's throw in something controversial:

How would you feel about having only a female protagonist?

Jerion
30th Aug 2008, 15:28
^^

It might work, but I would rather a choice.

Freddo
30th Aug 2008, 19:13
OK, let's throw in something controversial:

How would you feel about having only a female protagonist?
Nano-augmentated Lara Croft! :D

I wouldn't really mind. I really like the No One Lives Forever games, for example, and that main character is a female.

iWait
31st Aug 2008, 07:49
I'm fine with a female character, as long as it's not a skimpy-clothed, over feminine character meant to cater to the 13 year old boy/45 year old single man crowd.

gamer0004
31st Aug 2008, 09:11
I'm fine with a female character, as long as it's not a skimpy-clothed, over feminine character meant to cater to the 13 year old boy/45 year old single man crowd.

*cough*Lara Croft

:D

DXeXodus
1st Sep 2008, 04:26
Having just a female protagonist would be fine if it fits into the storyline. If the game calls for that sort of thing then do it by all means. It should not just be a decision made "for the hell of it" though.

And recording the voices of two different genders would not take away from the game in any way. It is not like the level designers and programmers are doing the voice recording. That can be done by completely separate individuals and thus will not impact regular game development.

pauldenton
1st Sep 2008, 10:59
Having just a female protagonist would be fine if it fits into the storyline. If the game calls for that sort of thing then do it by all means. It should not just be a decision made "for the hell of it" though.

And recording the voices of two different genders would not take away from the game in any way. It is not like the level designers and programmers are doing the voice recording. That can be done by completely separate individuals and thus will not impact regular game development.

so -

1. she is invisible, no designer/programmer needed for her?
2. professional recording studios work for nothing?(money is a resource that can impact on game developement)
3. dito - good female voice actors work for nothing?
3. editing and checking voice implimentation is automatic and takes no time(time is money and money is a resource)?
4. more time on overal quality control.
5. possible dvd size impacts - graphics, levels or sound quality may have to be reduced to squeeze it in if the game runs over.
6. possible compromises if not in story then dialogue(more time/money and potentially a weaker game).

and for what? a pair of boobs and a female voice?
if it impacts the game much further than that then we are talking even further resources cutting into the game - waste of time and money.

DXeXodus
1st Sep 2008, 11:57
It is true that there will be other implications as you have mentioned. But if adding a female character adds more than a "pair of boobs and a female voice" then the impact on the games re-playability will be great. The modelers would need to make one more character model and they would need one more voice actor. I was also assuming that EM has an in-house recording studio. I believe that the impact on the game will be more positive than negative. My heart is not, however, set on gender selection in DX3, but I really would welcome the idea.

K^2
1st Sep 2008, 19:22
How would you feel about having only a female protagonist?
I wouldn't mind.

Igoe
2nd Sep 2008, 05:25
Yea, I've kind of grown accustomed to the idea of a female lead in DX3.

I'm not opposed to either gender though, as long as its handled well. Above all, I have to love a character. If I love a character, everything else about it is secondary.

RangerWill
2nd Sep 2008, 12:55
I played it through once or twice as Alex(andra) Denton. I personally think she acquitted herself well on all fronts. Now this gender issue, I think it shouldn't matter if it's a boy or girl as your main character, although you should make some skills gender specific, just for the fun of it. Now personally I am looking at it DX3 from the stand point of it being a prequel game. In which case I think Paul should be the main protagonist since he WAS JC's predecessor. And maybe show FMV scenes of JC being prepped and trained for his first foray in DX1. Even three-quarters of the way through switch over to JC or have him team up with Paul to allow him to field test his new mods. Of course at the their zero settings since he has just received them.

mj12_agent13
3rd Sep 2008, 13:51
I don't meen to be some kind of sexist guy but i think the role should be a male one... I already agree with not wasting time doing both genders because to do it right i think you'd literally have to have two games.

Think about all the best secret agents:

Jason Borne - Male
James Bond - Male
Jack Bauer - Male

p.s. doesn't mean you couldn't have some top quality AI booty for your character to indulge himself with;)

René
3rd Sep 2008, 21:04
Think about all the best secret agents:

Jason Borne - Male
James Bond - Male
Jack Bauer - Male


I dunno, Cate Archer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate_Archer) was a pretty darn cool secret agent!

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/c/c8/200px-Arch_Cate.jpg

Larington
3rd Sep 2008, 21:30
Apparently someone once returned their copy of NOLF 1 (or 2) to the store because they "didn't like playing as a woman". But yeah, its a shame there hasn't been a NOLF 3 (Least not that I've seen), I'd buy it if it came out on PC.

DXeXodus
4th Sep 2008, 04:01
Geez René. When I opened this page all I saw was a picture of a female posted by you and i thought it was the DX3 protagonist. Haha. First thing I thought was "wow, orange clothes. Um... OK"

Then I recognized her.

K^2
4th Sep 2008, 14:37
First thing I thought was "wow, orange clothes. Um... OK"
That's what goths wear in the dark future to stand out.

imported_van_HellSing
4th Sep 2008, 14:52
The future is bright, the future is Orange. Just watch the teaser again. :P

K^2
4th Sep 2008, 15:31
The future is bright, the future is Orange. Just watch the teaser again. :P
Oh, yeah. The parts that are on fire are definitely bright and orange.

Absentia
4th Sep 2008, 16:20
If this is a prequel where mechanical augs are prominent... (Which I kinda hope it isn't, but I'm trying to get used to the idea just so I don't get disappointed as much if it is)
Anyhow, if it is, and we have only a female protagonist, it'd be a shame to see her progress from innocent and cute to a half-machine clunky tankwoman =P

You might say the same would happen with males, but augmented males look cool, like Gunther.


Basically what I'm saying is, Anna Navarre is ugly.

minus0ne
4th Sep 2008, 17:23
Basically what I'm saying is, Anna Navarre is ugly.
On the other hand you wouldn't believe how many Ghost in the Shell-fans describe Major Motoko as "the hot chick", and she's 100% cyborg (as in, only her 'conciousness'/memories/etc. remains of her former self, hence "Ghost in the Shell").

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8608/261175-115639-motoko-kusanagi_super.jpg

And this is her cyborg 'shell' taking a bad beating:

http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/ghostshell19.jpg

Absentia
4th Sep 2008, 17:33
That's like saying Mega Man looks cool, but if Mega Man appeared in a game set before Deus Ex, it might raise a few eyebrows, no?
Also, think of the Capcom lawsuits...

(bad) humour aside, this is only assuming that DX3 is a prequel (But I hope it isn't. Now AaronJ won't murder me :D)

imported_van_HellSing
4th Sep 2008, 17:35
The Major's body is designed to mimic the real thing though. Anna's augs are much more... noticable.

K^2
4th Sep 2008, 17:53
The Major's body is designed to mimic the real thing though. Anna's augs are much more... noticable.
There are still different ways of doing it. If devs will want to make the mechanical augs look sexy, they'll do it.

imported_van_HellSing
4th Sep 2008, 18:05
But of course. Anna's augs aren't meant to look pretty.

This on the other hand looks quite aesthetically pleasing:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1900/cyber1ys8.jpg

K^2
4th Sep 2008, 18:16
But of course. Anna's augs aren't meant to look pretty.
Right. That's what I'm saying. And if this is a prequel, and the protagonist does happen to be a mech-augmented female, I'm sure devs will revise that. And the shot from the trailer that you are citing is a good evidence of that.