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Voltaire
26th Aug 2008, 18:05
We haven't looked at one possibility for the DX3 main character. And that is that maybe the narrative flow could work if the story was from the POV of several characters.

Now I know a lot of you want to throw bottles at me for even suggesting this. That was pretty much a given when I'm putting forwards an idea that would set DX3 apart from the other titles in the series. But I'm sure it could work.

If used in a sophisticated way, I believe that an in-game story told from several perspectives could work. There, I said it. I'm not saying it's the best way to make the game, but it might give the story a new dynamic.

Any (constructive) thoughts?

gamer0004
26th Aug 2008, 18:11
*throws bottle at Voltaire*

foxberg
26th Aug 2008, 18:19
*Throws a case of bottles at Voltaire*

Fig89
26th Aug 2008, 18:22
It could be done, but it would be .... seemingly antithetical to so much that we know makes a DX game a DX game.

Most importantly, it would be difficult (or at least very different from the previous two games) to develop a character, create that sense that every decision you make matters, influences the world around you, and can have grave consequences.

Mostly I fear something like this would lead to what I'll call Raiden syndrome. There is a reason I never got through MGS2, and that reason has a more expensive haircut than scarlett johansson.

Freddo
26th Aug 2008, 18:23
It does work rather well in some games, like Fahrenheit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_(video_game)). However, it can be extremly poorly done in games too, like Halo 2.

I don't think it's the way to go with Deus Ex. Both the previous games are about one particular character and their journey thru the game events. I don't think it would have been good if the player suddenly controlled, for example, Paul Denton, Gunther Hermann or Walton Simons in the first game. It would have broken the game flow.

LatwPIAT
26th Aug 2008, 18:41
<Throws dual bottles on Voltaire>

Short answer:
No. Just no. It would break the narrative flow.

Long answer:
It'd be extremely hard. First, to not break the narrative flow, you would have to make each character have their own adventure; their own story to tell. Then you would be breaking the game into separate pieces, and since you would have to learn new skills and gather weapons and info three or four times over, it would break flow of gameplay, while not having as strong a narrative flow. One of the really nice things in Deus Ex was bringing Denton from begining to end. By the time Bob Page offered me Europe, I, and I alone, had solved several hostage situations, rebelled against my own organization, been captured, visited New York, Hong Kong and Paris an underwater lab, killed all my superior officers, redirected a nuclear missiles and infiltrated Area 51. Because Deus Ex is partly an RPG, everything that happens to Denton happens to "me" When Denton is one badass one-man-army slugging a GEP gun in one hand and a Plasma Gun in the other while jumping up skyscrapers, "I" am one badass one-man-army slugging a GEP gun in one hand and a Plasma Gun in the other while jumping up skyscrapers. Breaking it up won't work.

Larington
26th Aug 2008, 18:52
In terms of DX3 itself, err, sorry its too much of a departure from the originals for my liking. But I'm hoping that the game will be so successful that an expansion pack played through a different character would be possible.

iWait
26th Aug 2008, 23:02
You have to remember Voltaire that DX is about setting yourself in the circumstances of JC. Making moral choices based on what you know. If you controlled multiple characters each one would turn out similar in terms of choices and morality. Say for instance player 1 is set with a choice: Kill a guard after interrogating him or let him live. If you choose to let him live it is likely that is how you will play through the game with all characters, minimizing casualties and being a "good" agent. Another problem is that all the characters are probably going to converge at the game's climax. If they have conflicting moral views there would be an issue, as it would be retarded to have a fight with yourself.

ewanlaing
26th Aug 2008, 23:41
I think basically that character development is key to the story. I would rather the team focused on having many startling revelations throughout the story, rather than just one repeated over and over to different characters.
But I'm not going to throw bottles at you.

*throws tomato*

GamerX51
26th Aug 2008, 23:41
*Activates Strength Aug and throws a truck full of Tomatoes AND bottles at Voltaire*

MaxxQ1
26th Aug 2008, 23:52
*Throws a bottle of ketchup (or catsup) at Voltaire*:D

Tsumaru
27th Aug 2008, 00:50
*pokes Voltaire with a broken bottle*

jcp28
27th Aug 2008, 01:26
*Drives by Voltaire and throws tons of broken bottles and overripe fruit.

Seriously, what would you do? Have one of the protagonists be some guy who sees things from afar and is mostly an observer in the events that follow? I don't count it out completely, but for a sequel,phbbbtth!

Jerion
27th Aug 2008, 01:41
*throws voltaire into a dumpster full of bottles*
YOU SPILLED MY DRINK!

DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 03:54
Just because Voltaire thinks Lemon-lime will work and you all vant Orange doesn't mean you should all lynch him. :D

*Picks up broken bottles lying around a shattered Voltaire. Takes him aside from the raging masses and kindly whispers the word "no" into his ear.

But seriously though, as others have mentioned, character development in terms of a single character is very important. A game series which I felt always did multiple character solutions well, however, was the COD series. Especially the latest iteration, Modern Warefare. The "All Ghillied up" mission where you play as Cpt Price as a sniper is absolutely brilliant. But I don't believe this will work in Deus Ex. If it is done, it should be a very brief mission in the form of a flashback or something similar.

Voltaire
27th Aug 2008, 09:13
Well I pretty much got what I expected ;)

I recognise that maybe it isn't the way to go forwards for a DX game. But think about this for a moment with an open mind. That's it guys, drop the fruit.
We all know for a fact that the reason conspiracy theories are just that - theories - is because nobody ever knows the whole story. You just can't.
(I also believe that it's possible with experimental storytelling to have an NPC protagonist. But shh, let's keep that a secret before the angry mob finds me again)
If anybody has seen the film Vantage Point, you'll know how a story through a fragmented perspective can be insightful. And did anyone else watch Die Hard 2 and think "This is stupid. Why would one man be doing all this. And how? The airport is huge. And what's with that girl's hair. Oh look, it's the black cop from the first movie again, what a surprising cameo..."
I think that games with multiple protagonists, especially conspiracy stories, could thrive on such a setup.

But it probably isn't the way to go forth with a DX game :whistle:

DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 09:19
You are a brave man Voltaire. Respect :)

I hear what you are saying though. It is a good idea, but I'm not sure it would go down too well with a Deus Ex game as you said.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Aug 2008, 22:35
^
Yes, a very brave man, hehe. :D

Phew, close one though... glad that idea was quickly nipped in the bud! :cool:

Perhaps we can all now grab a (friendly and non-throwing) bottle of the very finest beer and make a toast to a happy DX3 future - Cheers everyone! :)

imported_van_HellSing
28th Aug 2008, 22:52
By the way, the DX bible kind of suggests that Paul was to be a playable character in DX1, and replaced by JC midgame:


So Daedelus decided to experiment, using Paul Denton, Majestic 12's first nano-augmented, Infolinked agents, as its tool. But all it can do is talk to Paul, offering advice and suggestions. At times Daedelus can actually see through Paul's eyes. Once in a while, Paul even get flashes of Daedelus' presence in his brain. These flashes of Daedelus-ness grow more frequent and last longer as the game goes on. These can offer a glimpse of anything in Daedelus's massive databanks -- everything from old movies to Majestic 12 org charts to maps of Greenbrier and Mt. Weather� These visions come in the form of weird stuff overlaying the main view window, replacing the 3D window, and they're almost never easily interpreted without the assistance of an ally.

Later, when Paul is incapacitated or killed, Daedelus turns its attention to J.C. and the two work together to defeat the conspirators.


Harvey Smith denied this, saying he was not aware of such a plan, but when you read that excerpt, especially the part about how the Daedalus-induced visions appear "in the form of weird stuff overlaying the main view window, replacing the 3D window", there's no other way I can interpret it. And who trusts Harvey Smith on anything these days anyway... :P

minus0ne
28th Aug 2008, 23:36
Any (constructive) thoughts?
*Grabs Voltaire and attempts to squeeze him into a bottle

Seriously, it's not a far-out idea by any means, but I don't feel it fits DX's narrative style. Multiple playable characters work well in survival horror games, and sometimes even KOTOResque RPGs (where there's a party system). However first person RPGs like DX suffer when immersion is broken by such a transition. It's a good thing they didn't make Paul a playable character in DX.

GruntOwner
28th Aug 2008, 23:47
*Takes minus0ne's Voltaire in a bottle and throws it into ocean*

I believe it came up as a suggestion a while back and got intruded upon in some of it's less wholesome cavities. Though that might have beed an idea about alternate realities, but the break in immersion is the same problem. There's also the 'what people tell your character, what he works out for himself and letting him make his own singular decision' bit, which is why multiple protagonists tend to suck. If personality 2 is told that personality one is a jerk, then personality 1 should still be gobsmack shocked when said teller turns on him.

Tsumaru
29th Aug 2008, 01:33
If anybody has seen the film Vantage Point, you'll know how a story through a fragmented perspective can be insightful.
Insightful and repetitive...

MaxxQ1
29th Aug 2008, 01:48
Insightful and repetitive...

Yes, but it was still an interesting movie. IMO, or course.

That aside, like others, I don't think that sort of multi-perspective on the same event would fit with DX.

Tracer Tong
29th Aug 2008, 17:56
I recognise that maybe it isn't the way to go forwards for a DX game. But think about this for a moment with an open mind. That's it guys, drop the fruit.


I'll show you how I drop a fruit *a plane flies above Voltaire and drops a huge load of overripe fruit*

*another plane flies by and drops 50 gallons of empty bottles*

Larington
29th Aug 2008, 19:10
*another plane flies by and drops 50 gallons of empty bottles*

Somethings wrong with that sentence but I can't quite put my finger on it... :rasp:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Aug 2008, 09:22
Somethings wrong with that sentence but I can't quite put my finger on it... :rasp:


LMAO ... maybe gallons suggests liquid and bottles suggest solid? :scratch:
I dunno, but I expect Tracer Tong drank the contents before performing the drop? Wise move... :D

imported_van_HellSing
30th Aug 2008, 10:24
It's because gallons are a measure of volume, not of weight. Bottles are not something you'd usually measure in gallons. The liquid inside bottles, yes, but not the bottles themselves.

Tsumaru
31st Aug 2008, 00:51
What if the amount of bottles is equivalent to the volume of liquid glass used to make them?

gamer0004
31st Aug 2008, 07:47
Finally. A proper Planet Deus Ex discussion here.

mook333
31st Aug 2008, 21:16
ok, i think that we have all thrown enough bottles and fruit at voltaire

Spiffmeister
1st Sep 2008, 07:30
We haven't looked at one possibility for the DX3 main character. And that is that maybe the narrative flow could work if the story was from the POV of several characters.

Tribes vengence did that, it kind of made the story jump around to much, making it annoying.

minus0ne
1st Sep 2008, 08:28
Tribes vengence did that, it kind of made the story jump around to much, making it annoying.
Tribes Vengeance had a story? :lol:

I'm sorry all I can remember is pawning people in 40-player matches :scratch:

DXeXodus
1st Sep 2008, 08:40
I'm sorry all I can remember is pawning people in 40-player matches :scratch:

That is all that matters :D