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View Full Version : If I was at the reigns of Blood Omen 2



VendavalEste
24th Aug 2008, 07:19
There's no doubt about it, BO2 is largely considered the worst LoK game. I played it again recently, all the way to the end it, and as much as I enjoyed it, it's terrible.

So, what would you have done if you were part of the design team?

For starters, instead of creating headaches for everyone with bringing back Vorador I'd have introduced a new vampire in place of him, with exposition along the lines of him being an old ally of Kain's, hell, he could probably even still have all of Vorador's dialogue, just slightly altered.

Secondly, I would make the game a bit more open, not in the same way a sandbox game is, but so much so it isn't as linear as the final product turned out to be.

Kain's costumes would play a bigger role and would even alter minor scenarios, for example: Kain would attract bad attention in the Upper City if he was wearing his first armour, with some citizens possibly even taking him for a mercenary, while wearing in it the poorer areas he could probably team up with gangs of thugs before backstabbing them ;) .

If he went around said poorer areas in his Upper City armour, he'd probably encounter more fights.

Because of these, I think the Disguise and the Beguile spells should return but they'd have to be recharged (note, I haven't played BO1 so I don't know about them completely) so Kain could successfully appear as a human. I'd also like it that if during cutscenes around humans, Kain would appear human with no white-as-paper skin while in gameplay he'd appear as a vampire to the player, but with some bar indicating his appearance to others. For that reason , Kain's real appearance should become more obvious to those around him the more he fights; once he drinks blood his disguise completely disappears and he'll be forced to have it recharge. That combined with better stealth aspects too, in case Kain is perhaps in an area using ward gate-like technology in that his magic is disabled, so Mist and any forms of disguise would be out of the question.

That brings me to my next point; Mist was a lot of fun to use, but it was too plainly obvious where you should use it and sometimes it just came off a little forced, there was no way to tackle a situation in a number of ways. If it were up to me, Mist would be constantly depleting when in use and would need recharging, so Kain would be able to use it wherever.

The same applies for Jump, it's great fun to use but doesn't feel special, as you come to areas where it obviously has to be used. I can't really think of how to work on this one, except for maybe holding down the Gift Activation button to allow Kain to build up a jump to overcome a certain distance, so you'd only be able to control where to go, not how far Kain should go as that would happen automatically. Seeing Kain spring from building-wall to building-wall would be cool too, so I guess something that involves co-ordinating where he has to jump?

Charm is next up, again, too many areas where it obviously has to be used, to me it should have been a bit more like the possession ability from the Oddworld: Abe games; Kain could control what his puppets said, rather than making them just travel a short distance to flip a switch. He'd even be able to possess some hostile NCPs to say, create a ruckus within the barracks for Sarafan Guards so he can pass through without being noticed if he can't use other magic such as Mist to slip by. Controlling hostiles would be to draw attention away from himself in short.

As for Telekinesis, *sigh* again, too obvious as to where it should be used; the switches that require this ability shouldn't be in human-populated areas at all, those swithces are generally fine, but the Telekinesis should be used for some other puzzles too, perhaps Kain constructing something from a distance? Such as a makeshift bridge.

Lastly are the Gifts that make use of Rage; they all outdo each other slightly, though I still found myself using Fury on occasion near the end of the game. I found Berserk to be a lot cooler than Immolate, so the latter was usually useless for me, so I would have made Kain fight enemies so strong that could withstand Berserk easily. However, Immolate would not kill them instantly, it would instantly inflict huge damage so he could finish them quicker. Actually taking damage rather than blocking should increase Kain's Rage bar more, though that may be rendered useless by the fact he gets to draw blood from his fallen enemies right after, so the only choice to block would be when he's already low on health. Immolate would destroy weaker enemies instantly of course, I was mainly thinking of those huge demons seen in the Living End along with a few more types of Hylden warriors.

As for other aspects, namely visual ones, cutscenes would have much better animation, I found Soul Reaver 1's cutscenes to be superior almost every time, that's honestly quite bad as the majority of those were Raziel simply standing in his normal stance and talking. I didn't find the graphics to be all that bad to be honest, heck, I even liked the FMVs, I just wish the opening one was better made; so what, Kain's been in that armour for two centuries? Why can I see all the other vampires looking the same as they do now but with glowing eyes, and why are there Sebastian clones everywhere? Quite bad if you ask me, but I still like watching it.

As for a few more lesser changes, using Berserk would sometimes literally slice up Kain's victim and he'd still be able to draw up the blood from their torso (or perhaps from all the blood leaking from their severed limbs) and Kain would be able to drink from multiple bodies at once, as opposed to having to watch him drink one-by-one.

Oh yeah, I'd have loved a bonus mode in which Kain is in his iron armour and has the Soul Reaver, but with all the Dark Gifts from the beginning (previously inaccessible areas ahoy! Then again, given my sandbox-like set-up, Kain would probably be able to venture back to a few areas, oh well, guess we could always give bonus areas godly power-ups), and enemies would be a lot more ruthless, with almost every one of their blows being surrounded in strong, golden or unblockable, red auras. Seeing as how the Reaver kills mostly in one hit and is unbreakable, it just makes this mode a little more challenging even though it's all for fun. That's something else too, the Reaver might take advantage of the Rage bar and act a little similarly to the one in SR2, in which it destroys enemies in a dazzling explosion in one hit but means Kain cannot drink from them (which in my mind, would just about hinder his progress only slightly).

I think that's all I have to say, quite long! I hope you got through it all and I hope to see some of your own ideas.

Valaquen_
29th Sep 2008, 07:50
I probaly wouldn't of made the game :P
I jest, I did enjoy BO2, I love the game areas and industrial 'feel' of the game, not to mention the costume changes. Though, it is my least favourite of the games, the story just isn't on par with the rest of the series, and I personally feel that elements in Defiance were compromised to fit BO2.
If it hadn't of been made then we'd all be asking for it to be made anyway :P

Linikratyo
29th Sep 2008, 15:10
I would try to make the Sarafan Lord more gray than black and make sure you don't know who is going to be your enemy next. What also would make a nice plot change is to let Kain lose a fight against a boss.... This will make the game less predictable. I still love BO2. The Hylden architecture is very nice and I like the hylden more in BO2 than in Defiance.

Raziel'sRevenge
2nd Oct 2008, 23:55
Personally I don't see why everyone hates Blood Omen II so much. I think it wasn't half bad. I'd have given more thought to some of the dialog, and given the Nexus Stone some more use so it could be incorperated into other games, but aside from that I really didn't think there was much wrong.

FearGhoul
3rd Oct 2008, 01:09
It needed some fine tuning, but I thought it was fun. Better than Soul Reaver 2 as far as I'm concerned.

Linikratyo
3rd Oct 2008, 17:02
I think BO2 was great!! but it probably needed some plot twists. It's all to straight forward... If you have to fight someone than you have to win... it's predictable.... :whistle:

Raziel'sRevenge
9th Oct 2008, 17:34
It needed some fine tuning, but I thought it was fun. Better than Soul Reaver 2 as far as I'm concerned.

my feelings exactly

Linikratyo
9th Oct 2008, 18:10
I thought of a :scratch: :eek: :confused: :( **** :p :rasp: :D plot twist thing.... What if Kain was to late to stop the Device?? What if it destroyed all of Meridian and all the vampires except Kain & Janos? Then they would have to go to the Hylden City without the others.... The vampires would have been destroyed together with Meridian, which would explain why there is so little known about it in SR..... :rolleyes:

The_Hylden
10th Oct 2008, 20:12
I played it again recently, all the way to the end it, and as much as I enjoyed it, it's terrible.

That doesn't make sense. If you enjoyed it, it can't be terrible. It's not as good as the others, but it's not terrible...


Because of these, I think the Disguise and the Beguile spells should return but they'd have to be recharged (note, I haven't played BO1 so I don't know about them completely) so Kain could successfully appear as a human. I'd also like it that if during cutscenes around humans, Kain would appear human with no white-as-paper skin while in gameplay he'd appear as a vampire to the player, but with some bar indicating his appearance to others. For that reason , Kain's real appearance should become more obvious to those around him the more he fights; once he drinks blood his disguise completely disappears and he'll be forced to have it recharge.

Well, in a way, this is happening. It's just not needing a recharge. Kain appears normal to most humans, besides the mercs or Sarafan. Until he starts fighting and drinking blood. The original spells worked in BO1 as disguise made him look like a normal peasant, while the upgraded beguile let him look as Kain, in his noble human form.


That brings me to my next point; Mist was a lot of fun to use, but it was too plainly obvious where you should use it and sometimes it just came off a little forced, there was no way to tackle a situation in a number of ways. If it were up to me, Mist would be constantly depleting when in use and would need recharging, so Kain would be able to use it wherever.

That's exactly how he used it in BO1


he same applies for Jump, it's great fun to use but doesn't feel special, as you come to areas where it obviously has to be used. I can't really think of how to work on this one, except for maybe holding down the Gift Activation button to allow Kain to build up a jump to overcome a certain distance, so you'd only be able to control where to go, not how far Kain should go as that would happen automatically. Seeing Kain spring from building-wall to building-wall would be cool too, so I guess something that involves co-ordinating where he has to jump?

That would be cool, but part of that works already. Besides using it as a mechanism to jump in needed spots to reach other platforms, Kain already can use it wherever, unless the distance is too far. The most fun way to use it is for attack. You can target most any enemy and lay them back on their pittutie, save for a few Sarafan that can dodge it.


Charm is next up, again, too many areas where it obviously has to be used, to me it should have been a bit more like the possession ability from the Oddworld: Abe games; Kain could control what his puppets said, rather than making them just travel a short distance to flip a switch.

Again, this is partially implemented already. Kain can make them stop and yell for help, which distracts enemies. More of it being necessary, however, or used as a more satisfying strategy, would have been cool.


As for Telekinesis, *sigh* again, too obvious as to where it should be used; the switches that require this ability shouldn't be in human-populated areas at all, those switches are generally fine, but the Telekinesis should be used for some other puzzles too, perhaps Kain constructing something from a distance? Such as a makeshift bridge.

Again, using it for attack is the most fun you can have with it. Just standing there and blasting someone onto the behind, then waiting for them to get up and jump attacking them, well, that's pretty nice:D Yes, more practical puzzle usage would have been great to see.


Oh yeah, I'd have loved a bonus mode in which Kain is in his iron armour and has the Soul Reaver, but with all the Dark Gifts from the beginning

Again, this is almost already done. Besides having the dark gifts, there's a code to start with the Soul Reaver and BO1 armor. The Reaver doesn't reave souls, but it's twice as powerful as any other weapon in the game. GO CHEESE!!:p

I agree with the rest, just pointing out some stuff while I had some free time.

exmachinad
16th Oct 2008, 19:37
Overall I like BO2 more than Defiance. Defiance managed to be more linear and repetitive... Its "Devil May Cry" rip off gameplay is fun at the start, but gets old too quickly.

Of course, Defiance plot is much better and much more relevant to the series as a whole than BO2 plot, but, judging the game by itself, I prefer BO2 over Defiance. And some things are just better in BO2, like the super-jump. It can be used whatever the player want, while in Defiance Kain needs to find those red circles :D It is laughable, really.

I think that most ppl that did not play BO1 (or was introduced to the LoK series by Soul Reaver) tend to dislike BO2. In fact, it does not have the same "feel" of Soul Reaver series, it is much more close to the feeling of BO1.


I think BO2 was great!! but it probably needed some plot twists. It's all to straight forward... If you have to fight someone than you have to win... it's predictable....

Yes, but aren't all games like that ? :cool: Doesn't Raziel wins all fights with his brothers in SR1?


...I personally feel that elements in Defiance were compromised to fit BO2.

I disagree. The only element that, lets say, "fits" into BO2 is the fact that the Sarafan Lord escapes with Janos' body. Everything else, to me, feels like a natural continuation of SR 1 and 2.

Linikratyo
16th Oct 2008, 19:49
Yes, but aren't all games like that ? :cool: Doesn't Raziel wins all fights with his brothers in SR1?

What people like so much about LoK is the storyline. They had to make a good storyline for BO2 or it would become less good for many fans. (actually I like Soul Reaver less than BO2.....) Face it: BO2 was too straight forward in storyline and that made it less good. (BO2 is the first LoK game I played BTW)

Andarthiel
5th Dec 2008, 08:52
Well I haven't finished it yet but I'm on my firs run through of BO2 and just got up to the sanctuary.
The dialogue is fine, stilll feels very LoK-ish. I can understand why some want it to be a sandbox game, it would do better gameplay-wise that way(it did fell strange and linear).
The one thing I absolutely loathe about BO2 is the terrible combat, couldn't they refine it a little. Dodging for example in Autoface is nearly impossible(I ended up blocking more than dodging), Kain doesn't really jump to the side that far and ends up getting hit anyway and it requires really careful precision to get it right.It just feels so awkward, feels like Kain is actually really slow(not like Defiance Kain), I would use the SR2 combat system(that was easy to use and dodging actually worked quite well in it) if I worked on BO2. The Dark Gifts were pretty interesting but I felt like he didn't have enough abilities/spells unlike BO1, if I worked on BO2 I would give Kain his old wolf form, that thing was fun and human disguise so you can listen in on conversations or infiltrate certian groups like the Sarafan etc.
Another thing I found was a little odd was the lack of continuity in the Sarafan, they were nothing like either the BO1 Sarafan or the SR2 Sarafan,they should've just stuck with a style.
I would also refine some of the ugly models(with their bizzare facial distortions) that were in the game and fix the many bugs it has(the game crashed twice in about 5 hours, not a good sign).

FearGhoul
5th Dec 2008, 09:33
Well, there's a reason why these Sarafan aren't like the ones from before.

Linikratyo
5th Dec 2008, 19:56
Well I haven't finished it yet but I'm on my firs run through of BO2 and just got up to the sanctuary.
The dialogue is fine, stilll feels very LoK-ish. I can understand why some want it to be a sandbox game, it would do better gameplay-wise that way(it did fell strange and linear).
The one thing I absolutely loathe about BO2 is the terrible combat, couldn't they refine it a little. Dodging for example in Autoface is nearly impossible(I ended up blocking more than dodging), Kain doesn't really jump to the side that far and ends up getting hit anyway and it requires really careful precision to get it right.It just feels so awkward, feels like Kain is actually really slow(not like Defiance Kain), I would use the SR2 combat system(that was easy to use and dodging actually worked quite well in it) if I worked on BO2. The Dark Gifts were pretty interesting but I felt like he didn't have enough abilities/spells unlike BO1, if I worked on BO2 I would give Kain his old wolf form, that thing was fun and human disguise so you can listen in on conversations or infiltrate certian groups like the Sarafan etc.
Another thing I found was a little odd was the lack of continuity in the Sarafan, they were nothing like either the BO1 Sarafan or the SR2 Sarafan,they should've just stuck with a style.
I would also refine some of the ugly models(with their bizzare facial distortions) that were in the game and fix the many bugs it has(the game crashed twice in about 5 hours, not a good sign).

I think that you should simply play further and get used to the gameplay. Raziel is a dotcher and Kain is more of the nasty tricks and taking it ?easy?.
You should play the game further to get to the nice Dark Gifts such as charm & immolate. Once you near the Device then the levels would also get much more interesting. Blood Omen 2 has some very strong points. Like using Dark Gifts everywhere and killing citizens. :thumb: The only weakness in Blood Omen 2 is the storyline and character depth......:hmm:

And I actually find the Sarafan in BO2 very nicely designed. The Female warriors could use some armour plates, but the rest of the soldiers were fine....... :thumbsup:

Andarthiel
6th Dec 2008, 02:58
Well, there's a reason why these Sarafan aren't like the ones from before.

And what reason is that?
It seems that they never keep their armour design the same. Even the Defiance Sarafan look nothing like the SR2 Sarafan. It's like every year they have a uniform design competition within the order.:lol:

FearGhoul
6th Dec 2008, 03:14
Well, from what you've said, you haven't gotten very far in the game yet, so I won't give it away if you don't already know.
And I didn't think the Sarafan in Defiance looked that different from the ones in SR2. They all just look like they're based on how Malek looked in Blood Omen.

The_Hylden
6th Dec 2008, 04:28
Actually, if you're up to Sanctuary, this has been mostly answered, so I will explain. The time period of BO2 is 400 years after the events of Blood Omen. The Sarafan order existed 500 years before that, until the order faded into history. That's nearly 1,000 years since the original Sarafan order we see in Soul Reaver 2 and Defaince. They are Sarafan in name only. The Sarafan Lord, dubbing himself that, revised the name of the order since it was the one that most famously vanquished the vampires in the past -- which are his enemies. However, this order is made up of nothing but mercenaries, rogues, thugs and thieves, with suits of armor and titles only. Unlike the warrior priests of the actual Sarafan order, they do not believe in the same ideals, nor are they cut from the same cloth. They're a means to make an army the people both can respect and fear, as well as fodder to wage war against the vampires by the one calling himself the Sarafan Lord.

This is also a Nosgoth post the collapse of The Pillars, and thus the land and all people's in it have suffered some ill effects. Corrupted, you don't see many people of high integrity shown in this Nosgoth.

As for the dodging: you can only dodge effectively when a red attack is about to come your way (perhaps when the yellow ones come, but Kain can block them anyway, so why bother?), as that's a strike that will penetrate your blocks and, in fact, lay you out. You want to block in this game, as it fills your rage bar, allowing you to dish out the pain in sweet attacks. You can also grab an enemy at times like when they've finished their heavy red attacks and are breathing heavy. From here, you can use your claws, or weapons, to bash them a couple of times, then finish them with an impaling move, or something just as sweet (decapitations are nice). Kain isn't shown to be as fast as Raziel, but I bet it's just because the emphasis is more on him brazenly beating the tar out of these petty humans, mono e mono:p Stealth kills are also satisfying as a means to end opponents. If it weren't for the ok-to-not character models and animations at times, it truly would be a feast for the eyes...

With that said, I do love SR2's dodge nearly around your opponent before he has even swung that Raziel does. It's the game most like an effective martial art technique, and also shows off vampire speed, but Kain makes up for it with his long jumps into people, when you get that ability, and berserk (which I love more than immolate). He tears people apart with it (not literally, alas, as only heads get chopped off).

Linikratyo
6th Dec 2008, 10:34
I actually like the way Magnus used immolate. I think that one of the best scenes of BO2 is when you got hit by immolate... :p

Andarthiel
10th Dec 2008, 14:09
Actually, if you're up to Sanctuary, this has been mostly answered, so I will explain. The time period of BO2 is 400 years after the events of Blood Omen. The Sarafan order existed 500 years before that, until the order faded into history. That's nearly 1,000 years since the original Sarafan order we see in Soul Reaver 2 and Defaince. They are Sarafan in name only. The Sarafan Lord, dubbing himself that, revised the name of the order since it was the one that most famously vanquished the vampires in the past -- which are his enemies. However, this order is made up of nothing but mercenaries, rogues, thugs and thieves, with suits of armor and titles only. Unlike the warrior priests of the actual Sarafan order, they do not believe in the same ideals, nor are they cut from the same cloth. They're a means to make an army the people both can respect and fear, as well as fodder to wage war against the vampires by the one calling himself the Sarafan Lord.

This is also a Nosgoth post the collapse of The Pillars, and thus the land and all people's in it have suffered some ill effects. Corrupted, you don't see many people of high integrity shown in this Nosgoth.

As for the dodging: you can only dodge effectively when a red attack is about to come your way (perhaps when the yellow ones come, but Kain can block them anyway, so why bother?), as that's a strike that will penetrate your blocks and, in fact, lay you out. You want to block in this game, as it fills your rage bar, allowing you to dish out the pain in sweet attacks. You can also grab an enemy at times like when they've finished their heavy red attacks and are breathing heavy. From here, you can use your claws, or weapons, to bash them a couple of times, then finish them with an impaling move, or something just as sweet (decapitations are nice). Kain isn't shown to be as fast as Raziel, but I bet it's just because the emphasis is more on him brazenly beating the tar out of these petty humans, mono e mono:p Stealth kills are also satisfying as a means to end opponents. If it weren't for the ok-to-not character models and animations at times, it truly would be a feast for the eyes...

With that said, I do love SR2's dodge nearly around your opponent before he has even swung that Raziel does. It's the game most like an effective martial art technique, and also shows off vampire speed, but Kain makes up for it with his long jumps into people, when you get that ability, and berserk (which I love more than immolate). He tears people apart with it (not literally, alas, as only heads get chopped off).

Hmm makes sense and it fits into the history.
One strange bug I found was non-aggresive and defensive guards. They would never attack but would just block all the time. I must have spent 5 minutes trying to kill them then decided to ignore them and leave.
Up to the Canyons now and still not all that pleased with the game, aside from the tedious gameplay and constant crashing, the powers I have are mostly useless in combat(why can't I charm guard?That would be really useful) and I really miss having a powerful weapon like the Soul Reaver or Wraith Blade, the claws are pretty weak and unimpressive. The only weapon that was actually any good was that axe the Sarafan armor guards carry around and two bladed swords but they break which is really annoying. Bring back the unbreakable weapons of SR I say. The Stealth kills are the only thing that I can't criticize too much, they are fun to do but the animation is a bit weird for some of them(not to mention those awful char models).
Definetly doesn't have replay value for me.

And so far none of the characters are worth writing about to be honest, even Vorador seems a bit different to his usual self.
Although I must say the boss battles are some of the most challenging I've fought since Zelda(got me really frustrated a couple of times)

Linikratyo
18th Dec 2008, 07:31
My brother is now playing the complete LoK series from the beginning to the end and he's now busy with BO2 and stated: I love Blood Omen 2!!!! It plays so much better than SR2!!!!!!

This means that BO2 surely is not a bad game at all!! :rasp:

FearGhoul
18th Dec 2008, 11:55
As I've said before, I rate Blood Omen 2 above Soul Reaver 2, though Soul Reaver 2 had the potential to be the best in the series.

hellwalker
20th Dec 2008, 03:21
I actually like the game.
besides the possible lore rape. it portrays kains character perfectly. It was this game that turned kain into one of my favorite characters. now to be honest Kain does not get much attention in Soul Reaver 1 & 2 and It's next to impossible to prefer kain to raziel if you only played sr games.

Blood Omen 1 was great, but It failed to fully show the true depths of kains personality. in sr kain looks like some jerk, preying on poor raziel, whom most of the "mainstream" 14 year old noobies falsely presumed to be the "antihero Good Guy" a.k.a light side champion trying his best to kill bad guy [kain], archive his destiny and save some princess[preferebly with big breasts and semi transparent clothing]. which in fact was a lore and game spirit raping presumption, because one of the main pillars of lok is its unique dark setting, that leaves no room for primitive light vs darkness type characters.

It is only in Blood Omen 2 and Defiance we learn how badass and divinely cool Kain truly is. [And for me Defiance was the game where I learned how great a character raziel was. ] in some regards it stays truer to games dark spirit than both sr games. Scene where Kain kills umah would be N1 triumph of Quality over whining masses who prefer lame happy ending over quality drama, if not Defiance where kain defeats raziel, pissing off everyone I consider pathetic and making me happy :o

and the ending of blood omen, as Kain walks triumphant and his final speech! calling game bad after that scene is a blasphemy !

only thing I would like to change in blood omen 2 is it staying true to rest of the series lore.

amidst all this text what I forgot to mention was that I never liked raziel until the very end of defiance. He looked so weak, undecided, betrayed, used and manipulated by everyone on every step he made, in short pathetic. yeah, I have no sympathy towards weak and betrayed characters. I despise weakness, so after playing blood omen 2 kain became one of my favorite characters and raziel pissed me off. all that changed after what raziel did in defiance finale, what he did to moebius and his sacrifice, his last words to kain that was when i realized how wrong I was about raziel, he gained my full and complete respect! [though I still prefer kain to raziel. and how can I not? after this
[I]
Kain turns away in disgust and begins walking to the exit.

Elder God:
And on that inevitable day, your wretched, stagnant soul will finally be mine.

Kain pauses and turns back, menacingly.

Kain:
In the meantime, you'd best burrow deep.
]