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View Full Version : ABILITIES Let's Discuss - Bola



Tube_Reaver
10th Jan 2014, 20:40
Hello all,

I'll just get straight to the point with this post.

I think Bola would function better as a "reduce movement speed and attack speed" ability (opposite to haste), rather than an attack disable.

-It can still stop a flying sent, a charging tyrant, and pouncing reaver
-however this way you can remove the restriction on the hunter not being able to attack for a few seconds
-the vampire can still attack rather than feel so helpless that he is forced to pop his defensive (because as far as I see during gameplay, most of the time vamps pop their cooldowns is because they got bola'd, or save it until they get bola'd).
-Vampires can take haste or enrage rather than feel forced to pick Ignore Pain or Evasion


Now if Bola has to stay as is, than how about a version with the same capability as described above/

Thoughts/Discussion/Suggestions so on so forth.

Cheers.

Varulven
10th Jan 2014, 20:46
Attacking while bola'd doesn't sound natural for me. I think it should stay as it is.

Tube_Reaver
10th Jan 2014, 20:50
Think of it like you bola the vampire's legs, so it makes it more difficult for him to move/hamper their ability to move and attack? hence the movement speed and attack speed reduction?
EDIT: also this is more about the mechanics than what feels natural. Arrows that have blinding light don't feel natural to me either but I like the mechanic of the ability.

Varulven
10th Jan 2014, 21:00
But you don't bola his legs. It wraps itself around his torso and arms, how the hell could he attack while bola'd?

Tube_Reaver
10th Jan 2014, 21:01
Change the animation so it wraps around the legs? or tilt it so it wraps around say the left arm across the chest to the right shoulder? I know it's a bit of work, but it's alpha. Again just making a suggestion.

Varulven
10th Jan 2014, 21:04
Hey, it's okay^^
I just wanted to say that I don't like that idea.
No fighting, plz *sad*

Tube_Reaver
10th Jan 2014, 21:07
You are misunderstanding me. I am not fighting, I am just answering your question, and suggesting on how to make it work.
Personally I find it a very unsatisfying ability to use or play against :(

Varulven
10th Jan 2014, 21:23
Let's see if they will change the animation. But I think it will not happen, it is a lot of work...

Tube_Reaver
10th Jan 2014, 21:27
Well it's in alpha so no better time than the present :D

Kuro1n
10th Jan 2014, 21:50
Personally I feel it is fine as it currently is, the balance overall is very good. I'd rather have the devs introducing new skills, classes and maps instead of focusing the already existing ones which might have to be adjusted later anyway.

Shirokurou
10th Jan 2014, 22:35
Well, using Bolas kinda works and I like that it completely stops the attacking vamp.

But when it's used on me... yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

Tube_Reaver
10th Jan 2014, 23:00
Well, using Bolas kinda works and I like that it completely stops the attacking vamp.

But when it's used on me... yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

Don't forget it also completely stops your own attacks as a hunter for a duration, I know it's for balance purposes but I personally dislike that part as it feels so weird to me

EDIT: Changed the Original post to have a different version of Bola with the suggested effects

LiberalMedia
11th Jan 2014, 09:19
The bola does no damage and has a .5 second wind up to and another .5-.9 second delay before you can fire you weapon after you've thrown it.

I feel like I'm cc'd longer then they are and it does nothing to prevent them from running around in circles on top of you while they wait for it to wear off.

cmstache
11th Jan 2014, 14:54
Bola is already WAY too strong since the buff. It's a deathtrap.

I can maybe see a replacement as like a grapple effect, where you hold on to them tethered so they have to stay within a certain area for a few seconds. But that's pretty OP too.

Tube_Reaver
11th Jan 2014, 14:57
Bola is already WAY too strong since the buff. It's a deathtrap.

I can maybe see a replacement as like a grapple effect, where you hold on to them tethered so they have to stay within a certain area for a few seconds. But that's pretty OP too.

I know it's too strong, I would prefer replacing outright (which is what this thread was originally about it) but since some people like it as it is, I am going to suggest an alternative ability.

Let's face it, as long as there is a single hunter (or worse, more than one) on the enemy team, there is little point taking haste or enrage, as ignore pain and evasion become pretty much necessary.

cmstache
11th Jan 2014, 15:08
They just need to give the ability to dodge back. It was fine the way it was. O.o

Tube_Reaver
11th Jan 2014, 15:11
I suppose, but I would still prefer an alternative to the hunter's primary, I just can't get around the whole "throw bola, and wait a while before I can shoot again" (I know it's for balance reasons).
Also even with dodge, most people would still end up taking ignore pain and evasion, because well yeah dodging is nice, but it won't guarantee your survival unlike the two abilities

cmstache
11th Jan 2014, 16:08
No, but at least it lets you help yourself a little bit. There is nothing else in the game that makes you so helpless. At least the warbow is a distance thing, and while obnoxious, doesn't guarantee a death.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 17:23
I really don't understand you peoples problem with bolas, you just use CC break and leave? If you want to play with haste or enrage then sure, by all means do so but don't complain when you get bolad.

Tube_Reaver
11th Jan 2014, 18:24
Ok, so let's go with what you are saying:

1) I get bola'd, no problem, I have my CC break ability, use it, and get away.

2) Now let's say I take something else (enrage), I get bola'd, I'm dead, and I shouldn't complain about it because I didn't go with my CC break ability.

Surely that means that the fact bola is there, makes CC break abilities pretty necessary, whilst at the same time making enrage and haste underwhelming. That's the point I am trying to make.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 18:41
No, that is wrong. You aren't dead, if they have their whole group there sure then you are most likely dead but then you should be dead as well. You didn't manage to avoid the bola and got snared, you expect to survive their whole group?

How is this worse than getting hit by enraged tyrant charging you and then spikes... also leaves you dead.

LiberalMedia
11th Jan 2014, 18:41
The bola does no damage and has a .5 second wind up to and another .5-.9 second delay before you can fire you weapon after you've thrown it.

I feel like I'm cc'd longer then they are and it does nothing to prevent them from running around in circles on top of you while they wait for it to wear off.

lucinvampire
11th Jan 2014, 18:47
They just need to give the ability to dodge back. It was fine the way it was. O.o

I 2nd this so much!!!!!!!

Tube_Reaver
11th Jan 2014, 18:50
You can get a poisoned bola, which does some damage, but lower duration.
I agree about the being prevented from shooting for ages.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 19:01
You can get a poisoned bola, which does some damage, but lower duration.
I agree about the being prevented from shooting for ages.
How can you agree about not being able to shoot for ages and still say that you are dead if you get hit by one?

Tube_Reaver
11th Jan 2014, 19:12
From the opening post I have stated that I dislike the fact that I can't shoot for a good duration after tossing out bola.
As to your question:
There's more than one human on the enemy team. You get bola'd, you are pretty much an easy target, so they all focus fire your down. You are dead because the remaining 3 humans shoot you. Now if your team comes in to help quickly enough, great, but that isn't always going to happen.
3 humans focus firing you = you end up dead very fast

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 19:19
From the opening post I have stated that I dislike the fact that I can't shoot for a good duration after tossing out bola.
As to your question:
There's more than one human on the enemy team. You get bola'd, you are pretty much an easy target, so they all focus fire your down. You are dead because the remaining 3 humans shoot you. Now if your team comes in to help, great, but that isn't always going to happen.
So you go in alone versus their whole team? This is a team game you know, if you attack 4 players alone and expect to survive I suggest you rethink. You are supposed to attack together with your team. If you die it might still be worth it if your team uses your death well and kills their team.

Tube_Reaver
11th Jan 2014, 19:21
So you go in alone versus their whole team? This is a team game you know, if you attack 4 players alone and expect to survive I suggest you rethink. You are supposed to attack together with your team. If you die it might still be worth it if your team uses your death well and kills their team.

You are misunderstanding the point I am making. It's my fault, was too vague in the post, so I edited it, but also will explain on this post.
Your team can follow up, but it isn't always going to save you, 3 humans focus firing you will kill you extremely quickly. Now I know, if the hunter is allowed to shoot as well, 4 humans focus fire means even crazier damage, which is why I originally stated reworking the ability.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 19:34
You aren't meant to always survive though. If you attacked, the hunter managed to land a bola on you and 3 of his teammate seeing you and focus firing it sounds like you either didn't engage efficiently enough and I do not see a problem with you dying then. I am still rather confused, I think the skill is working splendid right now.

jestdoit
11th Jan 2014, 20:28
Complely agree with bringing back rolling while bola'd. Besides locking out rolling, I think human CC is fine.

Chain stuns/bolas on tyrants while sadistically funny, basically forces every vampire to always carry a CC break, if they're playing to win. Try carrying a team of 3 new players without using stoneskin, evade, or takeoff - it's not going to happen.

Kuro1n
11th Jan 2014, 20:34
Complely agree with bringing back rolling while bola'd. Besides locking out rolling, I think human CC is fine.

Chain stuns/bolas on tyrants while sadistically funny, basically forces every vampire to always carry a CC break, if they're playing to win. Try carrying a team of 3 new players without using stoneskin, evade, or takeoff - it's not going to happen.
Well you aren't supposed to be able to take on a team of 4 players on your own (granted they know what they are doing), so I don't see why you would think that's a solid argument.

kardimond
11th Jan 2014, 21:04
The other longer CC in the game, like Pounce and Kidnap, is also occupying the CC'ing person with it. Also they can be cancelled by damage or other CC-effects. It enables rewarding teamplay on the other team by giving an opportunity to break those effects on your teammates.

Neither of these applies to Bolas. Except "just dont get hit by it" there's no counterplay to it - even moreso since one cant even dodge anymore. And lets be honest here: outplay-possibilities are non-existent when everything the bola'd vampire got is his normal movement-speed. Walking around strangely might only work against more new players (no harm intented) but thats it. Especially against Hunters, whose firemode is really forgiving in regard to missed shots (compared to scouts and alchemists).

With the Bola, Hunters are simply able to literally take out an enemy for 3 seconds while still being able to act for that duration. It just feels really off compared to all other skills in the game. I agree with others here suggesting to re-enable the dodge-possibility while being bola'd. But I also think there might be a more elegant solution to that.

jestdoit
11th Jan 2014, 21:15
My point is if you're playing to win, carrying a CC break skill is mandatory. The difficulty of carrying a team of new players without a CC break is just an illustration, the same applies to organized games with level-capped players, where everyone is working together.

Restoring rolling while bola'd will make enrage and haste more viable for competitive play, where one knockdown or stun is a death sentence as a vampire. CC'd vampires were sitting ducks before the patch, even with rolling. Nobody in the forums had any issue with it, so we're wondering why rolling was restricted in the first place.

LiberalMedia
11th Jan 2014, 22:42
Well bola is a skill shot and cc breakers are not so what's the risk reward here? Throwing a bola removes my ability to fire for 1.5 seconds and if I miss I'm taking free damage.

If I land my bola in a 1v1 situation it does very little as I can't attack during the animation delay, so they run in circles for a few seconds or pop their cc/evasion with zero chance of failure and take no dmg then retreat to a roof.

Bola just seems like a sub par item and I wish they'd given us some starting gold to try out the other items.

cmstache
12th Jan 2014, 02:37
If I land my bola in a 1v1 situation it does very little as I can't attack during the animation delay, so they run in circles for a few seconds or pop their cc/evasion with zero chance of failure and take no dmg then retreat to a roof.


The delay is so small I don't normally even notice it unless it's a LONG range bola, which doesn't do much. Being caught by bola vs a good team is a literal death sentence, not to mention that they would have gotten anywhere between 3-5 attacks off on you, even not counting the delay time, if they were already up in your face. And Jest, it's because there was literally ONE thread saying it should be this way. Most of the people even disagreed, for this reason.

Zolfried
12th Jan 2014, 04:25
well from my few sucsess matches, hunters fights best in 1 clumped up group.. so you could just think of bola as a support skill, yes you cant attack, but your teammates dish out that dmg for you.. you should still get out of cc fast enough to get that killing blow..

my suggestion is: show us the bola swingup animation b4 throwing the bola.. and like requipping the crossbow after throwing.. to justify the cd's when using the bola... the vampire should keep the effect he have now.. not being able to attack.. but maybe if he was sprinting or flying when the bola hit, he should get knocked down... the animations might add abit more penalty (the vampire can see you revving up for bola and start evading) .. but if you hit it on fastmoving targets, youll get rewarded for it.

To begin with.. bolas hit you with a pretty heavy force, it is afterall heavy balls that swing around you, usually hit by a bola would send you flying to the ground, even when hit on upperbody.. vampires are strong, but the bolas spinning around you should atleast get like a small stun too in addition to just disabling attacks.

Tube_Reaver
12th Jan 2014, 12:42
Both Jest and Kardimond explain better than I do, as to why Bola makes CC breakers mandatory.

Not only does this make Haste and Enrage pretty underwhelming, but because of how strong it is, the hunter himself cannot attack for a set period.
Honestly I think they should just rework it while it's still in Alpha. This is all just my opinion of course.

cmstache
12th Jan 2014, 14:15
It was fine the way it was, they need to just revert it already.

Strike5150
14th Jan 2014, 16:26
It was a totally out of the blue change that no one seemed able to explain. Almost as if a developer was playing with the bola and rage added no dodging while bolad. It was even stated that bolas were intended to take the vampire out of combat, NOT turn him into a bullet sink. Definitely went in the wrong direction with this change.