PDA

View Full Version : First Person - Does Deus Ex 3 need to innovate?



Old_Snake
20th Aug 2008, 17:50
Looking at games such as Mirror's Edge do you think there need to be mechanics that stray away from just shooting and interacting with keypads and locks.

It just came to me a while ago, not sure if Eidos Montréal have enough on their plate, but i would love to see this game push the boundaries in the FP genre.

imported_van_HellSing
20th Aug 2008, 18:26
The only thing I really missed in DX1 was mantling ledges a'la Thief.

Demiurge
20th Aug 2008, 18:36
The only thing I really missed in DX1 was mantling ledges a'la Thief.

I second this. It was pretty damn useful and I would like to see a return of this in DX3. I felt at times that anyone watching a trench-coat clad $50bn agent repeatedly trying to jump on top of a box would think he looked a right pillock.

"What an expensive mistake you turned out to be"

foxberg
20th Aug 2008, 19:10
I'd love to see some Sam Fisher moves from Splinter Cell to be incorporated into the DX3.

ewanlaing
20th Aug 2008, 23:06
I think pretty much the entire movement and stealth system from Thief 3 should be incorporated into DX3.
But perhaps that's just me being demanding.

minus0ne
21st Aug 2008, 03:18
I'd love to see some Sam Fisher moves from Splinter Cell to be incorporated into the DX3.
I believe some of the EM devs have previously worked on SC titles. However SC felt somewhat scripted in its use of the moves, or maybe that's just down to the small and closed environments.

I think pretty much the entire movement and stealth system from Thief 3 should be incorporated into DX3.
But perhaps that's just me being demanding.
T3 is a pretty good game (though very different from its predecessors), but the controls still felt a bit clumsy and ackward at times, it was far from perfect, but the general stealth mechanics I did like.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st Aug 2008, 07:04
If we are discussing the flow of movement - "Assassins Creed" offers up an excellent example of what works. :cool:
Yeah, "Mirrors Edge" looks similar too, though I haven't played this game myself yet.

Thief 3 was indeed very slow/clumsy. The amount of times I had to swing the blackjack before it actually hit an enemy's head was very annoying. :rolleyes:
I prefer to play fan missions for Thief 2 because it is so much more responsive than T3.

Red
21st Aug 2008, 08:05
One good example of interaction with keypads and such could be Doom 3 if you remember - when you approached a terminal, crosshair would turn into an interface cursor and you could operate the software on the terminals. Quite an interesting concept in a brainless shooter wouldn't you think? I believe it could work in DX3. Plus, it would increase the pace and pressure since it wouldn't pause the game and draw the keyboard on your screen, but you'd have to be constantly on guard for patrols in the area.

Necros
21st Aug 2008, 08:55
Yeah, I'd like to see mantling too, and a more serious implementation of sneaking. But I don't think the team should be thinking about innovating, yet. :) First put out a great DX3, maybe a Thief 4 too (;)) and then they can start trying new stuff. And they could do it with Deus Ex 4 for example, this franchise has a lot of potential and I think some really good devs could come up with stuff that has potential to shake up the FPS genre a bit. I hope Eidos Montreal is up to the task. :)

The amount of times I had to swing the blackjack before it actually hit an enemy's head was very annoying. :rolleyes:
Interesting, I didn't have any problems with that...

foxberg
21st Aug 2008, 14:43
One good example of interaction with keypads and such could be Doom 3 if you remember - when you approached a terminal, crosshair would turn into an interface cursor and you could operate the software on the terminals. Quite an interesting concept in a brainless shooter wouldn't you think? I believe it could work in DX3. Plus, it would increase the pace and pressure since it wouldn't pause the game and draw the keyboard on your screen, but you'd have to be constantly on guard for patrols in the area.

Yes, totally agree. It keeps you more in the game and feels more real then just taking a break evoking the keyboard and then taking it easy typing with no pressure on the back of your neck. The more "life like" the game is the better it is for all gamers.

Blade_hunter
21st Aug 2008, 20:29
Yes it needs innovates if we want a success with this game it must innovate, for me that's not a secret. staying only with DX bases ar going under DX will break the game.
Just take a look at DX2 or even Snowblind, those games appears to be reduced DX games.

innovation, isn't only copying things from other games even if some things from those games are great, and sometimes perfectly fitted to the game, the thing is to keep the style of the original game, correct the things that doesn't work properly (ex: the suits) instead of suppressing them, and add some new stuff by expanding each part of the game, we need to expand the interactivity of this game, and for me if the game have a large panel of actions, this could be a great innovation.

Freddo
22nd Aug 2008, 01:12
I don't really thing it needs to innovate the first person mechanics. Deus Ex wasn't innovative with it. What Deus Ex did was just to the grab various game genres into a blender and use the result. And that's what they need to do again. Not invent some new "groundbreaking" stuff.

The major thing I hope they put into the first person view are the body and legs. Like FEAR, Thief 3 and so on. But that's hardly innovative today. Mantling would be very nice too, but that's not innovative either.

K^2
22nd Aug 2008, 01:23
Right. And I think that is maybe what OP meant. Innovation is just a bad term for it. The next Deus Ex must catch up to the times. There have been a number of good stealth games since the last DX, and since it tries to be a stealth game, it should incorporate some of the things that worked. Same thing goes for body awareness. A few games have done it right. Watch them, learn from them.

I also think that the way Doom III has done various interactive screens and number pads is brilliant. DX3, being a cyberpunk influenced game, simply has no excuse not to use something like that. If they can also push the body awareness in that context, and have the character actually touch the buttons, without it slowing down the gameplay, so much the better. For that to work, engine will need to anticipate the interaction, like, have hand with index finger extended ready to press the button the moment you mouse over the interactive screen.

Alai
22nd Aug 2008, 01:34
I think just about every games that has large amount of conversations, they should use the communication system that was used in fantastic Mass Effect game. It's the best ever.

K^2
22nd Aug 2008, 01:37
I think just about every games that has large amount of conversations, they should use the communication system that was used in fantastic Mass Effect game. It's the best ever.
I haven't had the chance to play that yet, so could you expand on that? How exactly did Mass Effect's communication system worked? And why would that be good for DX?

DXeXodus
22nd Aug 2008, 04:24
I haven't had the chance to play that yet, so could you expand on that? How exactly did Mass Effect's communication system worked? And why would that be good for DX?

I have only just started ME so don't shoot me down if you know better. The communication in ME is real-time. You view a cinematic of the actors talking and you are presented with multiple reply options in advance before the closing of the other persons statement/question. A "wheel-like" system is used which represents the analogue stick of the controller (Or just the movement of the mouse on PC) And on different points of this wheel are simplified versions of what you will say. These versions just represent the tone and direction of your sentence to follow. For example.... The wheel may say: "What!?", whereas the actual line spoken by yourself will be: "What the hell did you just say to me!?" To put it very simply.

Here is an example:

http://nukoda.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/mass-effect-choices.jpg
http://nukoda.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/mass-effect-choices.jpg

It is quite a streamlined system. It has it's flaws, but it works well.

K^2
22nd Aug 2008, 05:32
Thanks, Exodus. So essentially, same thing as in previous DX, but with no pauses for answer. I suppose, that would help with the immersion. In which case, why not do it in first person, as well? So basically, you get your Half-Life-ish "cut scenes" but the protagonist isn't a mute, and you select your responses in advance.

DXeXodus
22nd Aug 2008, 05:41
You can input your responses in advance yes. If you don't select an answer before the end of the other persons sentence then you all just stand there and stare at eachother until you do. So it is up to you how you do it. It is nice because it allows for a more fluid and uninterupted experience wih regard to dialogue.

iWait
22nd Aug 2008, 07:37
The game pauses at the start of the dialogue. Think KOTOR except a wheel with simplified versions.

urban_queen41
22nd Aug 2008, 07:55
Ooooh, I'm liking the sound of this communication system =] I think it would work very well in Deus Ex- help with the immersion and whatnot, make it seem more 'real' and everything. Just imagine how it would contribute to characterization- if you took ages to input an answer, an aggressive character would insult you while a more patient character would just sit there and wait etc.

Fen
22nd Aug 2008, 09:52
The mass effect system works well for keeping conversation fluid. In ME however, there are always three ways of answering a question. Nice, neutral and *******. Id much rather DX be not so black and white with its dialog however. And have our options based on different reactions to what the person has said, not how much of an ******* is your character going to be when answering?

Old_Snake
23rd Aug 2008, 01:53
I like the idea of a system that is a progression of the Mass Effect system. As stated before the choices, whilst interesting, in that they suggested the tone not the actual speech, were separated by the Good/indifferent/bad avenues. I would like Deus Ex to allow a more gray area, and the conversation dialogue be dynamic depending on information you have learned. For example you could catch someone in a lie if you found a datacube in a toilet with relevant info.

I also would like a simple stealth indicator such as the one found in CoR: Escape from butcher bay (screen changed with purple hue). I would also like to see a fleshed out melee system for those who ant to get closer to the enemy. Think Jason Bourne except with nano aug reflexes! It would help create a uniques fighting style for different players and increase re playability.

gamer0004
23rd Aug 2008, 06:18
I do not know exactly how the stealth indicator in CoR:EfBB worked, but I wouldn't like it if there was a bar with level of stealthyness (is that a word?). Because you always end up only watching the indicator and not the environment for dark places.

Jerion
23rd Aug 2008, 07:33
Innovation? Well...what's been done so far?

Large, roaming, interactive envrioments...check.
Incredibly detailed physics...check.
Excellently done combat mechanics...check.
Long, Intricate storyline...check.
Very large variety of weapons, usable objects and modifications...check.
Impressive stealth system...check.
Stunning visuals...check.
Completely Destructible environments...check.

So...what's left?

The Storyline. The A.I. Cooperative Campaign Play.

This is where DX3 could really shine, and set itself out form the rest of the crowd. In DX1, the characters throughout the story had an immense variety of responses and behaviors depending on how you played through various situations. Now, take that to a whole new level. Throw in Co-op play into what would otherwise be a single-player system, and everything, right down to the last word, sale prices, and soldier behavior, adapts to fit it. Characters automatically adjust their conversation and actions to include and interact with additional players, to such an extent that anything players not present during the conversation do could affect things in the middle of a conversation. DX3 could open up a whole new world of possibilities by making the storyline capable of dealing with the actions and opinions of multiple players. Not mmorgypoo (http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=080729) scale, but maybe just on the level of two or three players that want to play through the story together over a LAN. Don't do it the cheap way, where NPCs just acknowledge the first player and ignore the others, but really make the AI be able to adjust on-the-fly to having multiple players present. Or not present: Imagine getting briefed by Manderly only to have him interrupt the briefing to push an intercom on his desk telling Player 3 to stay out of the Women's restroom.

Sorry if this is kinda confusing, but it all came to me in about 0.5 seconds so I'm in a rush to say it before I forget it.

It's just that DX3 needs to stand out from the crowd, and this is where it could really shine. I mean, extensive interactivity with the environment is one thing, but extensive interactivity between multiple players and the environment is a whole lot better.

ikenstein
23rd Aug 2008, 22:11
did any of you play a game called penumbra? some of the controls in that were cool -

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GAvQAkXqnUg

its a bit clumsy using the mouse for opening stuff sometimes tho.

Old_Snake
24th Aug 2008, 14:56
did any of you play a game called penumbra? some of the controls in that were cool -

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GAvQAkXqnUg

its a bit clumsy using the mouse for opening stuff sometimes tho.

That looked very interesting, but I think the pacing of Deus Ex 1 was a little too fast for that kind of detailed interaction. However in the case of key items such a levers it could be useful.

Blade_hunter
24th Aug 2008, 15:26
That's a thing I always wanted for DX doors that can be opened a bit or completely, this thing is perfectliy fitted for the game

gettrix
24th Aug 2008, 16:00
First Person - Does Deus Ex 3 need to innovate?

Definitely, something like Dark Messiah Of Might And Magic or Condemned 2 is expected from Deus Ex 3.

Necros
24th Aug 2008, 16:24
did any of you play a game called penumbra? some of the controls in that were cool -

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GAvQAkXqnUg

its a bit clumsy using the mouse for opening stuff sometimes tho.
I have played with that and thought it was a great game but it doesn't fit into Deus Ex, I think.

gettrix, let the devs just get it right first, then they can try new stuff. I don't think most of the fans want/expect groundbreaking stuff from this new game.

Blade_hunter
25th Aug 2008, 17:01
I have played with that and thought it was a great game but it doesn't fit into Deus Ex, I think.

Why this isn't fitted to the game ?
I give my reason about why I think it's perfectly fitted for the game:
It enhances the cover options, the infiltration part, etc ...

K^2
25th Aug 2008, 17:36
Yeah, I think Penumbra system can work. Though, I'd like to see it work with body awareness. That is, instead of a little floating hand, actually have the character's hand articulated to the point where this can be done. This would be especially nifty with keypads and various interactive screens.

P.S. In DX, it would have to be the left hand operated that way, since right hand almost always carries some weapon. Might be a bit unusual to control left hand with a right-handed mouse, but I'm sure it would work well once adjusted.

Larington
25th Aug 2008, 20:31
Hmm, personally I'm hoping they are very careful about just where they innovate. I mean for example, go back to DX1s biomod system but perhaps with a few tweaks in implementation.

Improve the mission/objective list system so you have collapsable info and this time track optional objectives as well as the main plot ones.

Then just expand on things that DX1 could have had that didn't, so, improved behaviour in AI, being able to use binoculars to shoulder surf a passcode to a door (In otherwords, innovate on how NPCs interact with the keypad in game so that it aids gameplay, rather than doors seemingly just openning as the NPC bumps into the door or the doors sensor).

Expand the weapon customisation system.

And so on.

gettrix
25th Aug 2008, 21:10
Also the superb cover system and that fusion of 1st and 3rd perspective in Rainbow Six would be nice. You could also check out how you look in the real world when changing clothes/armor/helmets/gloves.

K^2
26th Aug 2008, 00:22
3rd person view is definitely not what you want in DX. Immersion is a big part of this game. First person view is essential. If the character cannot see something, you shouldn't be either.

Freddo
26th Aug 2008, 03:31
3rd person view is definitely not what you want in DX. Immersion is a big part of this game. First person view is essential. If the character cannot see something, you shouldn't be either.
Agreed.

Old_Snake
26th Aug 2008, 10:20
3rd person view is definitely not what you want in DX. Immersion is a big part of this game. First person view is essential. If the character cannot see something, you shouldn't be either.

Yes, i tend to agree, a cover system would be great, with full body awareness but stick to first person. I think this helped make JC Denton such a fun character to play as you were so immmersed in the world whilst feeling you were doing the cool fighting yourself.

Blade_hunter
26th Aug 2008, 11:01
Also the superb cover system and that fusion of 1st and 3rd perspective in Rainbow Six would be nice. You could also check out how you look in the real world when changing clothes/armor/helmets/gloves.

For auto-switch view I'm completely against, because it break the immersion, and if you want to check how you look in the game world you find a mirror and look at it. It's more immersive, in DX 1 we can do the same, but if we have graphical improvements (details) we can show the wear we have.

foxberg
26th Aug 2008, 12:07
3rd person would be awful.

Larington
26th Aug 2008, 18:03
Yeah, I'm afraid a Designer would likely have a hard time justifying 3rd person being implemented into DX3, the previous 2 incarnations certainly did just fine as 1st person only so it doesn't make much sense to change whats definately already working.

Note: I'd say this also applies to the over-the-shoulder-first-person thats become rather popular in a lot of new games lately, starting with Gears of War and most recently with Dead Space.

DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 04:37
I just thought of something interesting with regards to 3rd person:

Red Faction 1: First person shooter. Excellent game. Brilliant gameplay.
Red Faction 2: First person shooter. Bad game compared to the original.
Red Faction 3: In production as a 3rd person tactical shooter.

Deus Ex 1: First person shooter. Excellent game. Brilliant gameplay.
Deus Ex 2: First person shooter. Bad game compared to the original.
Deus Ex 3: In production as a ...........................................

:eek:

I hope the maths doesn't add up. I'm just kidding though. I believe it will be a conventional First person camera like the previous titles in the series.

MaxxQ1
27th Aug 2008, 05:31
I just thought of something interesting with regards to 3rd person:

Red Faction 1: First person shooter. Excellent game. Brilliant gameplay.
Red Faction 2: First person shooter. Bad game compared to the original.
Red Faction 3: In production as a 3rd person tactical shooter.

Deus Ex 1: First person shooter. Excellent game. Brilliant gameplay.
Deus Ex 2: First person shooter. Bad game compared to the original.
Deus Ex 3: In production as a ...........................................

:eek:

I hope the maths doesn't add up. I'm just kidding though. I believe it will be a conventional First person camera like the previous titles in the series.

Shouldn't this be in the "Controversial Thread Title" thread?:scratch:

DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 06:15
Why? we are talking about first person and viewpoints.

MaxxQ1
27th Aug 2008, 15:23
Why? we are talking about first person and viewpoints.

Okay, I guess the humor fell flat. I was just thinking that your last entry up there would have been a contender for controversy if it was a REAL thread title.

Bad joke. Mea culpa.

K^2
27th Aug 2008, 18:31
For auto-switch view I'm completely against, because it break the immersion, and if you want to check how you look in the game world you find a mirror and look at it. It's more immersive, in DX 1 we can do the same, but if we have graphical improvements (details) we can show the wear we have.
Did you notice that IW had no mirrors? I know that it is a bit harder to code shadow volumes with mirrors, and the devs simply fell flat on that, but hopefully, this team will be better at that kind of stuff. Mirrors and shadows can be made to work together.

jcp28
27th Aug 2008, 21:10
Red Faction 3: In production as a 3rd person tactical shooter.



It kind of fits with the setting. But I feel the same way. This is blasphemy!

Blade_hunter
28th Aug 2008, 01:44
I'm a bit sorry; but there is always someone to tell about this crap of R6 vegas in many threads

DXeXodus
28th Aug 2008, 03:50
Okay, I guess the humor fell flat. I was just thinking that your last entry up there would have been a contender for controversy if it was a REAL thread title.

Bad joke. Mea culpa.

Lol, sorry, I missed that one. Wasn't having a great day yesterday :)


It kind of fits with the setting. But I feel the same way. This is blasphemy!

I don't think it's blasphemy. For DX3 it would be blasphemy. I quite like the idea for a new Red Faction though. Looking forward to playing it.