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View Full Version : Ok, once again, a different armor thread.



Romeo
14th Aug 2008, 04:09
I would like to ask if anyone thinks it would be a good idea to have customizable armors and clothing. The slots would be divided as follows:

Head - Would contain Helmets, Hats, Rebreathers and Masks.

Eyes - Has various sunglasses and goggles.

Chest - Features Vest, Shirts, Jackets and Chest Armors.

Arms - Where to find armored gloves, standard gloves and full blown gauntlets. Long sleeved shirts and jackets over-ride this area.

Legs - Pants and Lower Armors are found here.

Feet - Shoes, Boots and Armored Boots occupy this slot.

And, just because, Backpacks - Features backpacks which can range from simple storage packs, to special abilities such as Spider-bot deployment and the like.

Please, feel free to vote up top, and post your comments as well. I recognize that this is quite different from what has been in the previous Deus Ex games, but personally I think it would be pretty cool. Imagine doing up your character like an Omar agent!

Romeo
14th Aug 2008, 05:28
Bwa ha ha ha. I counter-voted your vote, anonymous guy!

Tsumaru
14th Aug 2008, 05:35
Counter-vote this!

I like the idea of a bit of wider inventory slots. But that's because I'm a huge RPG fan. I think you can take it too far though. What do we need eye slots for? Legs AND feet? Why not hands as well as arms? Omg, neck!?!? OH AND EARS TOO! WE NEED EAR MUFFS TO PROTECT AGAINST LOUD NOISES!!

I dunno, I'm just not sure how well it can be implemented. What kind of items are we expecting to find? How frequent are these item drops? How do all the different items vary? Unlike an RPG, you don't get items with different magical effects "+x to y skill" and whatnot. So how does it really affect gameplay?

Igoe
14th Aug 2008, 05:50
Good idea, just not feasible.

Restrict it to regular chest armor, but different types (thermoptic, kevlar) and have it depend on skill.

BUT no time limit like DX1. Make it damage based (can take X dmg at X level before its gone)

Area specific armor is a nightmare in terms of keeping track of it.

A simple glow over my HUD torso that goes from bright green to yellow to orange to dull red to gone will suffice.

Your idea IS good, but I'd just like a more streamlined, less mind intensive approach.

Romeo
14th Aug 2008, 05:54
Clothing would offer no particular bonus, just style. Armor would simply reduce damage taken, except in rare exeptions, such as rebreather masks, which would prevent poisoning from air, or Omar armor, which would give more dialogue options with Omar on top of the armor bonus. Glasses would offer style options and options such as scopes or thermal vision. And the difference between boots and pants, is well... Boots and pants. I didn't think arms warranted their own slots, as sleeves generally take up most of the arms, save for the hands, hence gloves only.

Igoe
14th Aug 2008, 06:05
I'd rather eschew that in favor of a clothing/appearance system that allows me to change how I look occasionally. Nothing TOO drastic, just something along the lines of bloodlines that gives me 3-4 different options to augment the decision of appearance I made in the beginning (which better be there Eidos, it's not hard to make a character skinning system nowadays)

Romeo
14th Aug 2008, 06:17
That's the general idea of my idea. I don't need crazy armors, just enough to look different, and provide a slight advantage over clothing. And Omar... Just because I love the Omar.

gamer0004
14th Aug 2008, 06:19
Bwa ha ha ha. I counter-voted your vote, anonymous guy!

It was me. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it!
Except sending me back to the people in a body bag, of course.

Romeo
14th Aug 2008, 06:25
No no no... As long as you voted for Deus Ex in that other poll, you're safe. I realize my idea is a little radical for some to accept. =)

K^2
14th Aug 2008, 06:58
I think that having different types of armor for different body parts would be going a bit too far. It can be done easily enough, as long as you already receive different damage depending on where you are shot, but it is just too much micromanagement.

I wouldn't hate the game for doing it this way, but I would prefer having at most one armor slot.

On the other hand, if adding various wearables doesn't distract devs from the main game, go for it. Adding hard points for hats, shoes, backpacks, and fake beards on the model would not take a lot of effort, as long as they are limited to kinds of things that don't interfere with animations.

Most of these would be entirely pointless, but I think players would get some satisfaction out of finding some cool shades and putting them on their model, even if the only time they'll see these is when looking into mirrors. Maybe have NPCs make comments as well.

There can be some usefulness, though. First of all, you could wear certain articles of clothing to identify yourself as a member of particular faction. Maybe you'll be more likely to sneak past some guards if you are wearing a special hat. Furthermore, things like backpacks and breathing masks could actually have some utility.

So yeah, I like the idea of wearables, but not as armor.

Romeo
14th Aug 2008, 07:08
I think that having different types of armor for different body parts would be going a bit too far. It can be done easily enough, as long as you already receive different damage depending on where you are shot, but it is just too much micromanagement.

I wouldn't hate the game for doing it this way, but I would prefer having at most one armor slot.
On the other hand, if adding various wearables doesn't distract devs from the main game, go for it. Adding hard points for hats, shoes, backpacks, and fake beards on the model would not take a lot of effort, as long as they are limited to kinds of things that don't interfere with animations.

Most of these would be entirely pointless, but I think players would get some satisfaction out of finding some cool shades and putting them on their model, even if the only time they'll see these is when looking into mirrors. Maybe have NPCs make comments as well.

There can be some usefulness, though. First of all, you could wear certain articles of clothing to identify yourself as a member of particular faction. Maybe you'll be more likely to sneak past some guards if you are wearing a special hat. Furthermore, things like backpacks and breathing masks could actually have some utility.

So yeah, I like the idea of wearables, but not as armor.
At most one? And this is operating under the assumption there's more than zero, as we're specifying the number of slots... So it's either one... or five eighths? lol

Or during dialogue. =P

And that's a valid point, I should've marked that as an option on the polls, sorry.

K^2
14th Aug 2008, 07:42
I mean, I'd be ok with 1 or 0 slots. I don't think separate armor points are necessary. It's just one more type of "health kit" we have to worry about. Though, if it doesn't deteriorate, and simply gives you a bit of protection, sure, why not.

As for 5/8 of an armor slot, this isn't as crazy as it sounds. Number of armor slots is essentially dimensionality of your armor vector. Number of armor points, or whatever, in each slot is the projection of the vector onto the slot. One component of it, in other words.

It is possible, though, not trivial, to extend vectors to fractional dimensions. A 1/2 dimensional vector, for example, can be achieved by starting with a postulate that V is some vector space, such that Cartesian product, VxV, is homomorphic to a field of real numbers, R. R, of course, satisfies all properties of a vector space, and can therefore be considered a 1D vector.

Then, if I want to get 5/8, I do a same thing and require that there exists a homomorphism, h:V^8 -> R^5. Here, powers denote multiple Cartesian products.

Now, as long as I can describe behavior I want from an integer number N-slots in terms of an associated N-dimensional vector, I can extend all that algebra to 5/8 of a slot.

Naturally, I won't be able to display 5/8 of a number to tell you exactly what you are wearing - though, norm of that vector can give you an idea - but I can do all the math in the background and compute the damage you receive after subtracting whatever that 5/8 of armor caught.

And they said there was no good reason for me to take that Abstract Algebra course. Crazy people.

gamer0004
14th Aug 2008, 07:50
No no no... As long as you voted for Deus Ex in that other poll, you're safe. I realize my idea is a little radical for some to accept. =)

This -> And there's not a damn thing you can do about it!

Was a DX quote...
Don't think I'm pissed off :P

ikenstein
14th Aug 2008, 09:31
I mean, I'd be ok with 1 or 0 slots. I don't think separate armor points are necessary. It's just one more type of "health kit" we have to worry about. Though, if it doesn't deteriorate, and simply gives you a bit of protection, sure, why not.

As for 5/8 of an armor slot, this isn't as crazy as it sounds. Number of armor slots is essentially dimensionality of your armor vector. Number of armor points, or whatever, in each slot is the projection of the vector onto the slot. One component of it, in other words.

It is possible, though, not trivial, to extend vectors to fractional dimensions. A 1/2 dimensional vector, for example, can be achieved by starting with a postulate that V is some vector space, such that Cartesian product, VxV, is homomorphic to a field of real numbers, R. R, of course, satisfies all properties of a vector space, and can therefore be considered a 1D vector.

Then, if I want to get 5/8, I do a same thing and require that there exists a homomorphism, h:V^8 -> R^5. Here, powers denote multiple Cartesian products.

Now, as long as I can describe behavior I want from an integer number N-slots in terms of an associated N-dimensional vector, I can extend all that algebra to 5/8 of a slot.

Naturally, I won't be able to display 5/8 of a number to tell you exactly what you are wearing - though, norm of that vector can give you an idea - but I can do all the math in the background and compute the damage you receive after subtracting whatever that 5/8 of armor caught.

And they said there was no good reason for me to take that Abstract Algebra course. Crazy people.


i can't work out if this is just gibberish or not. i like the bit about frational dementions. did you make that up?its clever if you did. but this bit -

'Number of armor slots is essentially dimensionality of your armor vector.'

what does that mean?!?

Blade_hunter
14th Aug 2008, 10:07
Separate armor parts are a great completion to the DX health system, I was the first to propose that.
You want to use disguises too, for infiltration it can give a sort of stealth a la Hitman.
About the backpack with a spiderbot it's original, even if I'm not a fan of this idea, because we can use spiderbots in an other way, but no games use this I think ...

To come back with armor parts and clothes I think our base clothe is better in dark places, the other disguises are less advantageous because they aren't dark like our coat for example.
If we are disguised we can't go to close to an enemy because they can recognize us.

The DX armor system aren't fitted to the game, the shifter mod is a proof of it because they add the ability to turn on or off the suits.

To make a full RPG thing the armors like your proposal are a sort of damage filter.

I don't vote but I think it's completely feasible

Laputin Man
14th Aug 2008, 11:55
I think that this could be a good idea potentially. But then if you add in these defensive armors and whatnot, then would that not detract from the augs? Such as the ballistic aug. I do realize that they had the one use vests in the original, so maybe there would be a way of balancing it all. I do kind of like the idea of having just a tad bit of control over my characters appearance though.

As for the whole idea about using disguises, I'm not sure what to think of that. On one hand it is kind of a completely different approach towards stealth. It may detract from some of the stealth based augs. But then I was thinking it could be skill based or be dependant on a skill. Maybe something like a persuasian based skill? After all, if you are hiding in plain sight, walking past people and occassionally interacting with them you have to be able convince them that you belong there, you have to blend in. The lower the skill level the more out of place you look and you're less convincing when talking to people or lying. But then again this completely takes away from the traditional stealth that has you trying to stay completely out of sight. I'm a bit torn here.

jcp28
14th Aug 2008, 15:55
I would not mind customizable clothing, but it better not take up much room in my inventory slots, otherwise, it should be thrown out the window. In the other thread on this, I said we don't need tons of addtional armor.

So anything like kneepads, helmets, whatever, ought to be tossed and never mentioned again.

K^2
14th Aug 2008, 17:13
i can't work out if this is just gibberish or not. i like the bit about frational dementions. did you make that up?its clever if you did. but this bit -

'Number of armor slots is essentially dimensionality of your armor vector.'

what does that mean?!?
No, people came up with fractional dimensions way before I ever thought about the concept. I think, fractals gave them a hint. If you look at Serpinski Triangle, and look at how its "area" increases as you scale it, you'll see that it is definitely less than 2-dimensions, but also certainly more than 1. Because for 2 dimensions, if you double the base, its "area" should quadrupple. For 1D, double. But if you double the base of Serpinski triangles, you essentially have 3 of the original triangles. So the total "area" tripples, and the dimensionality is ln(3/2)/ln(2), which isn't even a rational number.

What I had to work out pretty much on my own is how to deal with such algebras. There is very little info on that. Of course, if you know group theory and linear algebra, it is just mechanics. Simply follow the axioms, and it will work out.

What I meant about the vector is vector representation. You can take the armor points from slots in certain order, and treat them as a single vector. Now, take damage taken and distribute it between slots. Using the same order, you construct a dual vector for damage. Finally, your total hit point loss is some sort of a scalar product between armor vector and damage dual vector. All that's left is to define dual vector space in a meaningful way.

Simplest example. Lets say, you want to have different amount of damage to be dealt by hits to different parts of body with different armor points, but you want to have a single pool of hit points. Then, let us construct an armor vector as collection of percentages of hit points loss due to damage to particular body part. Then we compute the total HP loss as the sum of proper percentages of damage to each body part. This defines the dual space, because it tells us how to map an armor/damage pair into a real number.

Say, hit points lost due to hits to the head = 100%, body = 70%, each arm and leg maybe 20%. You now get a vector that looks something like <1.0, 0.7, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2>. Now, lets say you are hit with an explosion, that reached all of your body parts with 10hp of damage. The damage dual vector is <10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10>. The dot product between the two is 25. So you take a total loss of 25hp.

Now, all of this can be done without even having a notion of the vectors, because I define the scalar vector from simply saying I want the damage to different body parts to be additive. But by defining this in vector form, I essentially make the dimensionality of the problem a matter of choice. I really don't care any more if there are 6 armor slots or just 1/2.

The real trouble with 1/2 armor slots is figure out which one takes damage when you are shot...

Spyhopping
14th Aug 2008, 18:40
I recon the simple stuff shouldn't be ignored. Wearing low visibility clothing could enhance "stealthyness" alongside augs but without draining bioelectricity. A trade off between low vis clothing and armor would let the player develop individual gaming styles just as augs allow.

Perhaps a scenareo could be available for a portion of the game where the use of augs is not possible, and the player has to rely on low tech/old fashioned and more gritty skills.

Romeo
15th Aug 2008, 01:27
I would not mind customizable clothing, but it better not take up much room in my inventory slots, otherwise, it should be thrown out the window. In the other thread on this, I said we don't need tons of addtional armor.

So anything like kneepads, helmets, whatever, ought to be tossed and never mentioned again.
As to what the other gentleman said, the armor would not degrade, that's too much of a hassle in my opinion, even if it does come across as unrealistic. lol

And as to this point: Technically, it would only take up the place of your shirts and whatnot, so unless you were keeping a wardrobe in your inventory, you'd be the same as what you would be if you didn't. lol

jcp28
15th Aug 2008, 01:40
As to what the other gentleman said, the armor would not degrade, that's too much of a hassle in my opinion, even if it does come across as unrealistic. lol

And as to this point: Technically, it would only take up the place of your shirts and whatnot, so unless you were keeping a wardrobe in your inventory, you'd be the same as what you would be if you didn't. lol

We can only hope it will. I don't mind using some kind of stealth outfit or customizing my clothing style, but I'd be pissed if it took up too much space. But if Eidos could keep it small, I'd find it tolerable.

K^2
15th Aug 2008, 03:52
Agreed. Clothing shouldn't take up space in inventory when equipped. Extra sets should take up reasonable amount of inventory space. And it'd be fine if some clothing has additional properties, including armor-like protection, as long as it doesn't degrade.

Also, after some thought, clothes that follow animations of character wouldn't be as much of a pain to code as I initially thought. So there are no tech difficulties.

DXeXodus
15th Aug 2008, 04:29
I personally liked the way they implemented armour in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. You could find different suits of armour which protected you against varying amounts of either ballistic damage or radiation depending on the suit type. It is much simpler than separate elements which may end up getting messy. Different armours weighed more than others, but they also degraded over time. I'm not sure whether I like the armour degradation idea, but it is a realstic one I suppose.

I voted 1 because I like your idea and certainly wouldn't mind seeing it in the game because I am personally a fan of complexity in games.

Romeo
15th Aug 2008, 05:46
Thanks Exodus!

I'm normally a fan of degradation, just not in Deus Ex. Introducing what is essentially a new concept is dicey enough, let alone adding in too many things to worry about on top.

CarloGervasi
16th Aug 2008, 07:08
I don't know if it's really necessary. I prefer the regular health system from Deus Ex 1 honestly, and I believe that having a singular "look" for the character as opposed to hundreds of modular pieces ends up being better designed. I would have liked if the "ballistic armor" from the first game had a set amount of damage it could absorb when equipped, as opposed to a charge timer, but that's about as far as I would take an armor system. Getting shot in the stomach should damage my "Torso", not my "Pearl Jam shirt".

Xcom
16th Aug 2008, 07:27
Why not. Messing with clothes/armor can be fun. Not sure about backpack though. That's too Lara Croft-ish for my tastes.

K^2
16th Aug 2008, 07:38
Why not. Messing with clothes/armor can be fun. Not sure about backpack though. That's too Lara Croft-ish for my tastes.
Fine. Just the dual pistols, then.

DXeXodus
18th Aug 2008, 04:56
Dual pistols would be great. I would love to see it implemented for those moments when you just want to throw stealth out the window and bask in awesomeness. :cool:

Demiurge
18th Aug 2008, 05:23
I am against the backpack Idea, as realistic and true-to-life as it is , I just think it would make the character look like another lost american tourist. No, I would prefer of our protagonist had his own hammerspace, it worked before and it'll work again! Not against the idea of a grenade belt/ammo pouches/rifle slung over shoulder, but I would prefer it if all that stuff stayed attached to the body rather than scattering all over the place upon death like in IW. I hated chasing those grenades down the stairs or watching them be blown to an unreachable place by a blast, if they weren't destroyed that is!:mad2:

gh0s7
18th Aug 2008, 18:43
While the concept is fun, considering the style of game, a backpack wouldn't really fit; a bit difficult to get in a vent wearing a backpack full of equipment. :D
Not to mention that it wouldn't help much in battling mechs and groups, as it would certainly limit the player's speed and/or agility in-game...

Unless, of course, if the player could drop the backpack at will. :)

K^2
19th Aug 2008, 00:16
I am against the backpack Idea, as realistic and true-to-life as it is , I just think it would make the character look like another lost american tourist. No, I would prefer of our protagonist had his own hammerspace, it worked before and it'll work again!
I was thinking about having a hammerspace for the main inventory, plus, expanded with a backpack.

But maybe the backpack should also go into hammerspace, except store more stuff. Maybe it shouldn't even be a backpack but some high tech gizmo that warps space or some-such. Something along the lines of Horadric Cube from Diablo II. Takes up a 2x2 in inventory, but provides a 3x4 space inside. Make it some uber-rare item, but allow player to have as many as he can carry (or find, rather). No stacking, though.

Blade_hunter
19th Aug 2008, 15:01
An armor system is an expansion to the health system

armor degradation can be used in several ways, STALKER is an example, but old FPS are the firsts to use armor degradation, the game doom is the first to do that, but it was better in the game SOF, in multiplayer, the bullet prof vest can be seen in the bodies and when it's hit points are completely loss we lose the torso protection, but if a player made a HS we are instantly killed, the legs are unprotected too.

For me the best way is a combination between FPS and RPG style for the armors

A light bullet proof vest can stop pistol bullets but not the assault rifle bullets but it reduce the damages of them

In DX 3 we can do the same

About the armor can take inventory slots, they take inventory slots only in carrying state (storage) when we wear it it don't take any slots like in SS2

And in many RPGs the armors don't take slots when they are wared we have body slots for suits, If we have the health screen back in DX we can add the armors into it, it makes this health screen more useful.

gamer0004
19th Aug 2008, 15:30
Pistols are often more powerful than assault rifles...

Demiurge
19th Aug 2008, 16:49
Pistols are often more powerful than assault rifles...

Not really, with the exception of a few extreme comparisons, such as .375 Magnums or .50AE rounds to the weaker assault rifle rounds, such as the 5.45x39 round. The reason for this is that rifle rounds are longer and, as such have more cordite behind the round. This extra power, coupled with rifling, serves to give rifle rounds a higher muzzle velocity and range respectively. Stopping power increases with the diameter of the round (A huge chunk of metal will cause a considerably larger exit would than a smaller one). A 7.62x39mm round fired from an AK-47 is far more likely to kill you than a 9mm pistol round, and repeatedly getting shot by a .50BMG round will turn your chest into a fine swiss cheese. Just wanted to clear that up!;)

K^2
19th Aug 2008, 17:00
Technically, all modern pistols are rifles. Almost all modern guns are. The main exception are the shotguns, which tend not to be rifled.

But yes, what is usually called an Assault Rifle (not to be confused with "Assault Weapon") is much more powerful than a hand gun.

Blade_hunter
19th Aug 2008, 17:21
It's not about the power it's about the ammo, the AR bullets are thiner and longer than pistol bullets. the pistol bullets are most of times more effective than AR bullets against organic targets, but AR bullets are more effective against armor than pistol bullets. Some pistols or SMGs have similar bullets as the assault rifles.

The power and the effectiveness of a gun depends of the projectile form, the caliber, the cannon form, the friction inside the cannon, the matter of the projectile, if we have a silencer or not, if the guns is gas operated or not and the pressure delivered from the cartridge.

We have other parameters, but I mentioned the main I think.

Pistols and AR have a different kind of uses and effectiveness, but I prefer compare the SMGs and the ARs because they are more similar weapons.

K^2
19th Aug 2008, 18:47
Military AR ammo appears to be less effective because of all the regulations on how it is supposed to be made to be "humane". Take a fragmentary round, or even simply add cross-cut on the front of a regular bullet, and you'll have several times the stopping power of a gun.

By the way, gas operated rifle has pretty much the same effectiveness. It simply has improved durability and reliability due to fewer shocks on the system.

Tommy98000
19th Aug 2008, 21:07
That's the general idea of my idea. I don't need crazy armors, just enough to look different, and provide a slight advantage over clothing. And Omar... Just because I love the Omar.

Yeah omar are cool! it would be good if certain augmentations or equipment change the way your characters voice sounds, like the omar voice or the daedalus voice :D

Noceur
20th Aug 2008, 00:10
The backpack could offer more inventory space at the sacrifice of style... like handbags and pink Hello Kitty backpacks. ;D

Seriously though, armor would be interesting (I'd be happy with the armor system used in Deus Ex 1 too).
The only problem I can forsee is with goggles and such, as it could infringe on certain Augs. Unless the goggles work like in Deus Ex 1, but single use goggles are kind of silly.
Also, I actually like the backpack idea (for getting more inventory space) but as mentioned, there's a lot of vent crawling going on.

A tactical vest instead of armor could offer more ammo/inventory space at the expense of protection, though.

K^2
20th Aug 2008, 02:27
I don't see a problem with functionality of goggles and augmentations overlapping or interfering with eachother.

If the use of goggles, or some other item, hinders your ability to use an augmentation, then it should be up to the player to chose.

If it replaces in hole or part the function of some agumentation, than it needs to be a difficult to obtain item that drains some resource drastically. For example, have x-ray goggles that does the same thing as vision aug, but have it drain the energy like crazy.

And if the game works like DX, in terms of inventory, backpacks or something similar that lets you expand inventory is almost a must. Heck, in some situations, I'd wear a fanny pack if it meant a couple of extra EMP 'nades.

gamer0004
20th Aug 2008, 05:03
If it replaces in hole or part the function of some agumentation, than it needs to be a difficult to obtain item that drains some resource drastically. For example, have x-ray goggles that does the same thing as vision aug, but have it drain the energy like crazy.


Why? Goggles don't deplete energie that fast IRL. I think the goggles should be automatically charged (as in DX) and deplete energy if you use them, but you should be able to stop them and use the rest of the energy later on. The fact that it takes inventory space should be enough.

K^2
20th Aug 2008, 07:40
If they are disposable, sure. But have you ever seen disposable night vision goggles? It really makes no sense for them to work that way.

Them being powered by your own energy makes a little more sense. As well as them being less efficient at power consumption than a nanotech-based augmentation, which is presumably, more advanced technology. So the faster drain is easily explained in terms of the story, and provides an insentive for actually having an aug, if you really want to use the ability.

gamer0004
20th Aug 2008, 08:13
If they are disposable, sure. But have you ever seen disposable night vision goggles? It really makes no sense for them to work that way.

Them being powered by your own energy makes a little more sense. As well as them being less efficient at power consumption than a nanotech-based augmentation, which is presumably, more advanced technology. So the faster drain is easily explained in terms of the story, and provides an insentive for actually having an aug, if you really want to use the ability.

Well, it all sounds really nice, but you forget one thing: you want goggles to deplete energy at the rate of the invisibility aug? That's the problem with this idea: balance. I think the idea behind the nightvision aug is that you never lose them, break them or whatever. But I don't think they'll be more energy efficient... Or the modern day (in fact the 2052) goggles would be very, very inefficient...

Blade_hunter
20th Aug 2008, 14:00
In DX as someones says in an other thread DX armors / suits = Q2 items

The DX armor system isn't suited for the game, try shifter with DX, the armor system is better than DX itself.
The DX armor system is more suited for a game like serious sam than DX

The only good things we must keep of this are:

-The effectiveness are upgradeable by skills
-The fact when we carry the suits they are on the inventory
-Powered suits

The bad things that we must toss of this system are:

-The fact we can't turn off a powered suit
-Some suits are illogical by they use (ex rebreather)


In DX some suits loose their value by their action, and this reduce significantly the value of the environmental training skill.

The skills must give value to our character and items, and also the contrary
In DX some suits loose their value by their action and this reduce the interest of the skill.

Jaden
22nd Aug 2008, 10:11
The kind of armour you put together decides have high you ballistics protection you have, but the more you weigh, the slower you move (all depending on how strong you are)

Each hit deplies some of your bio-energy

Plating: Chest(1), Back(1), Arms(2) and Legs(2)

Different plates have different stats... weight ... protection ... ext

Bio-sourse (2)

Gives different abilities to armour. For example.

Bio-converter (use more than standard bio-energy for better protecion)
Bio-scavenger (saves bio-energy)
Bio-Masking (Invisibility): to use with thermal masking and cloak augmentation
ext.

Armour Flexibility: The fabric under and between the plates. (1)

Different fabric gives different pluses. For example.

ease of movement
damage resistance
toxin/poisen resistance
lower thermal masking/cloak cost
ext.

This is instead of having a ballistics augmentation in your body ;-).
Too unrealistic that your skin hardens against bullets, better it be the armour.

Ways to increase strength will then be with strength enhancement (aug) and skill ala physical strength

Ways to increase speed will be with speed enhancement (aug) and a skill like atheletics (speed).

This way if you want to be a badass closequarter shooting agent. You need to have the strength to be able to wear the best protection. ;-)

Just my two cents...

jcp28
22nd Aug 2008, 16:53
The kind of armour you put together decides have high you ballistics protection you have, but the more you weigh, the slower you move (all depending on how strong you are)

Each hit deplies some of your bio-energy

Plating: Chest(1), Back(1), Arms(2) and Legs(2)

Different plates have different stats... weight ... protection ... ext

Bio-sourse (2)

Gives different abilities to armour. For example.

Bio-converter (use more than standard bio-energy for better protecion)
Bio-scavenger (saves bio-energy)
Bio-Masking (Invisibility): to use with thermal masking and cloak augmentation
ext.

Armour Flexibility: The fabric under and between the plates. (1)




I don't how many times this has to be said but plates are not needed. And even worst, you want to add stats for each one? Dude, this isn't a realistic shooter, it's an RPG which happens to have some shooter elements, not the other way around. And your character is not a super-soldier, but a cladestine nano-agent who knows how to fire a gun. It would detract from the game if the character was some military badass who's main job was to kill as much of the enemy as possible. That's why I don't believe we need to have seperate armors for each part of the body.

And armor flexibility.... I might as well just gouge out my eyes right now. If anything like that was included as a factor, it would quickly cross the line from "fun" to "artificially hard idiocy" since you would have a hard time moving if you ended up with armor that isn't so flexible. It's okay to have difficulty moving if your leg is blown off. However, read below for my conclusion.

The main point here is that the game's emphasis is on augs, not armor. Armor is okay, but I doubt the protagonist belongs to the military. So "Armor" doesn't need real complicated stats. It doesn't have to cover the whole body either.

Jaden
22nd Aug 2008, 19:35
The main point here is that the game's emphasis is on augs, not armor. Armor is okay, but I doubt the protagonist belongs to the military. So "Armor" doesn't need real complicated stats. It doesn't have to cover the whole body either.

But that is exactly what you became if you took level 4 ballistics augmentation... only then it was because your skin hardens so the bullets don't do as much damage....

well basically the worst explanation... by making your armour customisable... better protection = slower movement speed, worse jumping, carry less items.

You get a better explanation, plus it makes you have to make a choise.

It would work like ... everytime you got hit it takes ... you lose some bio-energy

well I have always seen Deus Ex (not number 2) as a RPG with shooting elements ;-)... so it is probably a matter of taste.

iWait
23rd Aug 2008, 05:21
Romeo you double posted.

I don't understand why style matters, DX is an FPS, and you see a mirror less that 10 times in the game.

Romeo
3rd Sep 2008, 19:33
I am hoping to see more of the character this time around, perhaps in conversations, security cams, the pause screen and CGIs. I love Deus Ex, but if there's one thing I always disliked, it's that I almost never saw who I was. This is something The Darkness did much better, in my opinion. Sure, you were limited to the first person perspective, but you still knew what you looked like, you still knew who you were. Besides, I prefer a little bit of flexibility with regards to armors and the like. =)

gamer0004
4th Sep 2008, 14:05
I am hoping to see more of the character this time around, perhaps in conversations
You almost always saw yourself in conversations and you could see yourself in mirrors...

K^2
4th Sep 2008, 14:51
This is something The Darkness did much better, in my opinion.
Definitely. The fact that you could watch yourself transform while looking into a mirror was a nice detail. And even the fact that people around you reacted to your appearance is something that DX should use. People should respond to you differently if they see that you have a heavy machine gun hanging off your back.

Romeo
5th Sep 2008, 04:02
Oh hell yeah. Another time, yet again, that you saw yourself, was in conversations...

K^2
5th Sep 2008, 04:28
Darkness was entirely first person. Even the scene at the end of Act I, in the church (I don't want to spoil it for anyone.) you see yourself through a mirror. And that's part of what made that scene and some others so strong. I still cringe when I remember the electric drill from a bit later in the game. (Again, don't want to spoil it.)

And that's how I'd like to see DX3. DX and IW have done all that work trying to make you feel as the protagonist (even have body awareness) but then suddenly switched to 3rd person in dialog? That just makes no sense to me. I don't care if the protagonist talks. That's fine. Maybe even have some audible "private thoughts". But it should stay 1st person through the entire game.

Romeo
5th Sep 2008, 04:44
You swapped into 3rd person in conversations, except for the ones where someone was telling you something, not talking to you per se. I liked, I always felt like Esticado in that game. And by the way, yes, the drill bit is brutal.

K^2
5th Sep 2008, 04:54
Oh, yeah... Right. Sorry, it has been a while.

Still, I stand by my point. I prefer the game to never skip into 3rd person. Have it as an option for people who like that, if you must, but I'd like to have 1st person view and full controll at all times.

Romeo
5th Sep 2008, 04:59
I don't know, normally I'm with you, but because conversations were always a little detatched feeling for me, I don't mind seeing it pull to third person. Besides, you can't see your own emotions in first-person, which usually leaves the player wondering how his character is feeling.

DXeXodus
5th Sep 2008, 05:29
And this all relates to armor how?

minus0ne
5th Sep 2008, 08:11
Oh, yeah... Right. Sorry, it has been a while.

Still, I stand by my point. I prefer the game to never skip into 3rd person. Have it as an option for people who like that, if you must, but I'd like to have 1st person view and full controll at all times.
Actually with the graphics, models and animation DX3 is set to have, I'd love to see what the 3rd person conversations would be like. DX was one of the first 3D 'shooters' to use 3rd person dialogue in a virtually cinematic way, which, for me, is part of the attraction. KOTOR managed to take it to new heights, despite the PC being 'mute'.

Oblivion, though immersive, had a very awkward dialogue system that really broke immersion for me. The problems are almost too numerous to list, but let's just put the biggest down to a total lack of a cinematic approach (framing characters/NPCs in the correct directions, putting their eyes in accordance with the rule of thirds etc.), making conversation (fall) totally flat, empty and unconvincing. There's a great visual language of painting, photography, cinema and now video games (the latter borrowing lots from the former), one which, to top it off, everyone's an unknowing expert at (just by casually seeing a movie) and here Bethesda went "We can do a lot better than that, let's make every conversation and cutscene appear en face!" :nut:

VtmB is a totally different case, as the NPCs actually *acted* in conversations, with more than just their face looking at an exactly right angle, not to mention there were 3rd person cutscenes.

Immersion schzimmersion, I'll take DX's cinematic approach over Oblivion's dialogue system any day :D


And this all relates to armor how?
Good question :scratch: Oh well.

Spiffmeister
5th Sep 2008, 14:44
In this case perhaps we should keep to the "simplicity" of the first one (It wasn't really that simplistic compared to a lot of games, but it didn't complicate itself with armour).

DX1 had the right idea IMO.

K^2
5th Sep 2008, 16:34
Immersion schzimmersion, I'll take DX's cinematic approach over Oblivion's dialogue system any day :D
I don't see why first person cannot be cinematic.

Romeo
8th Sep 2008, 07:37
Because in first-person you can't see your own face, which can sometimes leave you guessing on what your character is feeling. Certain games pull it off really well (Hello, Darkness) but most don't. But Exodus is right, we're straying from topic. We really should talk about the armor aspects specifically.

Jerion
8th Sep 2008, 14:03
I don't see why first person cannot be cinematic.
Ditto K^2. Crysis did a pretty good job of having first-person cinematics.

K^2
8th Sep 2008, 15:11
Because in first-person you can't see your own face, which can sometimes leave you guessing on what your character is feeling.
There are two forms of escapism. One, where the player tries to escape himself. The games that help with this are the kind that project the character onto player. They can make you feel like the tough guy for a while, because you are playing a character who is a tough guy.

Deus Ex is not of that kind. It is the game where the player escapes the world. In DX, you are constantly given moral choices that you, as a player, must make. If the game already had a specific character in mind, it wouldn't have given you such choices. They would be made for you in some flashy cinematic scene.

Instead, you are the character in DX. It is your own emotional response to the scene that matters, not of some abstract avatar you are using to enter the world of Deus Ex. Because it is your actions that will right the wrong or let it be the way it is, and you shouldn't be dictated in that regard by whether or not your character's face in a cinematic looked concerned or unmoved. First person view in dialogs will aid the game, not hinder it.

Zegano
9th Sep 2008, 03:14
This thread is really starting to get off topic.

I think it would be great to return to the style of Deus Ex's predecessor, System Shock 2. That had a single armour slot. All that you need is an armour slot and a face slot for your rebreather or night vision. I wouldn't want to make it too complex otherwise it all just becomes superfluous.

Maybe an on/off switch for your armour could help with the charge problem. I wouldn't want my thermoptic to have limitless charge but I want it to be readily available. You could also have ballistic armour that is always protective, but provides extra protection when on.

Romeo
10th Sep 2008, 00:04
There are two forms of escapism. One, where the player tries to escape himself. The games that help with this are the kind that project the character onto player. They can make you feel like the tough guy for a while, because you are playing a character who is a tough guy.

Deus Ex is not of that kind. It is the game where the player escapes the world. In DX, you are constantly given moral choices that you, as a player, must make. If the game already had a specific character in mind, it wouldn't have given you such choices. They would be made for you in some flashy cinematic scene.

Instead, you are the character in DX. It is your own emotional response to the scene that matters, not of some abstract avatar you are using to enter the world of Deus Ex. Because it is your actions that will right the wrong or let it be the way it is, and you shouldn't be dictated in that regard by whether or not your character's face in a cinematic looked concerned or unmoved. First person view in dialogs will aid the game, not hinder it.
Mass Effect was about your own choices too, but there would have been a far larger difference in cinimatic quality had it been first-person cinematics. And yes, this is straying too far.

On topic, as far as I can see, about half the people want a more complex armor system, and about half want a simple system, or no armor at all. That's pretty interesting. I thought for sure everyone would have jumped on the "keep it like DX" bandwagon. =P

K^2
10th Sep 2008, 01:06
On topic, as far as I can see, about half the people want a more complex armor system, and about half want a simple system, or no armor at all. That's pretty interesting. I thought for sure everyone would have jumped on the "keep it like DX" bandwagon. =P
Is that surprising, really? DX is commonly referred to as a first successful FPS/RPG hybrid. That means that DX fans are a mix of FPS players who wanted a little more thought to the game, and RPG fans who wanted a little more action. The former want simple or no armor. Later want complex armor system.

Personally, I have always enjoyed both genres, so my own opinion is a bit split. But I'm leaning towards simple/no armor, probably because of all the years of QII.

Romeo
11th Sep 2008, 06:18
I gotta say, as much as I love Gears of War and Call of Duty, I much prefer customization. I like to be able to control every aspect about my appearance. It's one of the reasons I actually Saints Row to the generally accepted superior game, Grand Theft Auto, because in Saints Row, I made my character, I didn't just play him. This ties back into why I prefer complex armor systems to simple ones. That was one of the few faults I found with Mass Effect. After maticulously sculpting the face of your character, you were done. You essentially had a few armors to choose from, and that was it. Oblivion (better yet, Morrowind) allowed a far greater degree of visuals with regards to clothing and armors and what-have-you.

Apollonius
12th Sep 2008, 03:37
Soz, haven't read all the posts but i think it's a cool concept! (supposed to be studyin for more exams again but i like this place better). I'm a big fan of being able to customise my characters appearance, clothes, armour, skills, etc and it should be done more often in games, espescially in an RPG.

This just seems like how DX1 should have natually evolved. The more interactivity/customisability then the more chances there are for creating a deep and emersive gaming experience.

Romeo
12th Sep 2008, 06:23
Chalk another one up for team awesome... =D

Jerion
12th Sep 2008, 06:36
Chalk another one up for team awesome... =D

there is no team, as nobody's on it. Gotta love RvB. :D

Romeo
12th Sep 2008, 19:38
OH YOU KNOW THE REFERENCE! You just became my favorite.

Everyone else, you are not in our buddy club.