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cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 21:22
Should auto-aim be removed for vampires?

Psyonix_Corey
9th Jan 2014, 21:28
We have no plans on removing it outright. There was a dramatic reduction in average vampire effectiveness, particularly at low skill levels, during the patch that broke it.

We can certainly add an option to let you disable it, though.

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 21:29
I think that would please almost everyone, and some minor hitbox adjustments.

LOFO1993
9th Jan 2014, 21:33
It seems a VERY bad idea to me. That will only make it impossible to play the vampires every time you slightly lag, only making the game more unfair.

I want to make you notice long ranged weapons' hit detection is not server-side; that means that if from your point of view you hit the enemy, it gets hit even if in the meanwhile the "true" enemy has moved away. This means humans are not really penalized in attacking while lagging. Vampires would be, a lot, if auto-aim had to leave.


I've played with auto-aim off actually. The week I joined for some reason the developers had turned it off. It was IMPOSSIBLE to hit anything with the vampires, and people complaint a lot here.

This is more of a tactical game when you play with the vampires. Making it harder to hit once you already get close without tweaking anything else just means making it way more difficult for them.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 21:47
It's horrible. The melee attacks should just be a cone at the front of the vampire model.

Right now aim assist makes you do 180s when you don't want to and the hitbox means you will often miss people because they're against walls or on some stairs.

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 22:50
Don't forget the "suck you into my AoE" part.

jestdoit
9th Jan 2014, 23:16
Manual aim + wider melee tracers/hitbox, or giving vampires some rotation freedom during attacks, would fix melee issues, raise the skill cap for vampires, and increase depth.

Aim-assist, whether ranged or melee, isn't necessary for PC gaming in the first place. People play games like TF2 and CS for years because of the higher skillcaps, autoaim works against that.

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 23:19
I completely agree with Jest.

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jan 2014, 01:53
We'll keep taking feedback on the melee aiming stuff for sure.

I do want to explain a bit about our rationale behind human aim assist. The primary reason there's aim assist on ranged attacks like weapons is not to make shooting "ezmode" / negate mouse aiming skill, but for a few different reasons.

1. Our vampires specifically don't use hitboxes for being shot, but instead actual mesh collision (your body parts) due to all the different poses they end up in between Pouncing, sentinel flight, etc. We found during development that it was extremely challenging for human players of average and below skill to shoot vampires reliably using pure mesh collision (shots go between legs, gap between arm and torso, etc. quite easily) but we prefer how accurate it makes hit detection. The solution involves using aim magnetism that bends nearby shot trajectories towards a vampire based on the distance of the shot from their aim "magnets" (head, torso, wrists, etc.). This permits accurate hit detection in a variety of vampire poses (dramatically moreso than collision cylinders) while also somewhat reducing the skill required to successfully land shots.

2. Nosgoth is intentionally balanced such that pure weapon aiming skill is not the end all metric of player performance for the Human team. We view ability usage, placement, and aiming as an equally valuable skill metric as well as survival skills like dodging and situational awareness.

The combination of #1 and #2 allow us to maintain a bit of sanity balancing between newbie humans and pros. I get why some of you will disagree with the decision and want a game of "pure" skill but we have a large playerbase to think about at a variety of skill levels.

Kuro1n
10th Jan 2014, 02:00
Thank you for explaining your stance Corey, however I wish to tell you that you should not hope that this becomes a esport game though with aim assist, most competitive players will hate it I am quite sure. What I wish to know though is why would you need the smaller mesh collision over a hitbox if there is autoaim anyway? I would imagine it takes quite a lot more performance to calculate no?

Syst3mzero
10th Jan 2014, 04:50
Manual aim + wider melee tracers/hitbox, or giving vampires some rotation freedom during attacks, would fix melee issues, raise the skill cap for vampires, and increase depth.

Aim-assist, whether ranged or melee, isn't necessary for PC gaming in the first place. People play games like TF2 and CS for years because of the higher skillcaps, autoaim works against that.

OMG jest just won the entire INTERNET!

Agree on the 1st point, I miss hits that should but don't connect all the time, it feels like sometimes you are swiping at nothing (ping makes no difference I get 25 in EU and it still happens) and then sometimes you miss your last hit because it decided to change direction and hit the guy stood next to them, ditch the auto aim, increase the hitboxes so they at least fill the character.

I would like to say humans would be so much less irritating if you ditched their auto aim too. instead make a bow that shoots straight. a bow that fires like a drunk student aiming at a toilet bowl rewards people who cant aim and hobbles those who can.

jestdoit
10th Jan 2014, 05:48
There's several issues with melee:

The tracers/hitbox/whatever method's being used for hit detection, is too restrictive. Even with aim-assist, hits that you expect to land, somehow end up missing. Whiffs often occur with charge attacks, if they're slightly below you, or slightly off center (even though the models look like they collide). Circle strafing vampires at point-blank range is extremely effective, especially against tyrants.

The locked animations and lack of rotational control don't help, combined with the narrow melee hit detection.

Finally, because of the hitbox issues, melee auto-aim forces you to attack at specific, set angles. When the misses occur, it feels like the game is screwing you over, since you had no choice in the matter.

LOFO1993
10th Jan 2014, 08:06
2. Nosgoth is intentionally balanced such that pure weapon aiming skill is not the end all metric of player performance for the Human team. We view ability usage, placement, and aiming as an equally valuable skill metric as well as survival skills like dodging and situational awareness.

This is so true.

This is not an FPS. It requires a different combination of skills, and that makes the game original and interesting. I can't help but feeling if you turn this game into a fast-paced aiming contest half the people just won't be able to play anymore and all the tactics will be gone forever.

It already requires to be good at shooting, auto-aims on both vampires and humans need to be mastered to be really effective, but I honestly don't see the need to take away it all to make it a more "pro game". This is not THAT kind of "pro game". This is something really different, that focuses more on team-work and tactics than on individual skills, and putting some boundaries in what you can physically do is the only way to keep it this way.

It's like complaining that turning around in Arma is jerky. The point of the game is not that you turn around instantly and shoot at everything, like you may do in CoD or BF, but instead that you place yourself in a clever position along with your team mates. It's exactly the same here.


Edit: that doesn't mean of course that issues can't be fixed. It's true that hitting in melee people at a slightly different high than you can be hard. But taking away auto-aim and changing the attack system completely can't be the proper solution.

Strike5150
10th Jan 2014, 15:46
I would like to point out that hit detection and auto aim has nothing to do with what other skills you need in the game. Ultimately its up to the developers to balance the game in such a way that personal skill alone can't win the game. If a bow does so much damage that you can single handedly win the game by never missing it needs to be balanced better :).

If we have the option to turn off auto-aim on vampires and humans and play that way I would be totally ok with that. As long as the auto-aim is not so good that people who use it have an advantage I can't overcome its all good. If you don't want to turn it off entirely I understand but if I could turn it off by choice on my end that would be enough for me :).

lucinvampire
10th Jan 2014, 16:20
I don't know if it would work for this game - but maybe like in BO2 where there is an option for "assist on" or "assist off"?

jestdoit
10th Jan 2014, 23:06
Did a bunch of melee testing today, and came across several more issues:

Melee autoaim targets dead bodies. If you're fighting in a crowd, killing one person can prevent you from reaching someone behind/around a body.

Autoaim will target the closest target, even if you're aiming at someone else. This makes focusing targets/picking off humans that are near each other very unreliable. You can drop someone to 10hp, but they can just run around teammates to stay alive, while shooting through their teammate. Humans don't have have any problems focusing down targets.

All the downward smash attacks are unreliable, with high animation startup, and a narrow horizontal arc. Tyrant's first attack is pretty reliable (horizontal), his second much less (uppercut), and his third hit is the worst in the game (high startup downward smash with no horizontal arc). Charge attacks are the worst for tyrant, since he can only charge downward smashes. Sentinel has by far the best melee attacks with fast startup, and wide horizontal swipes that are reliable. His only downward smash attack is the third hit of his combo.

Oroibahazopi
10th Jan 2014, 23:13
As a human you can circle strafe a Tyrant on some stairs and there's a good chance he'd never hit you. Been there today.

mast1cator
10th Jan 2014, 23:29
The auto targeting is indeed quite irritating at times when you are trying to kill the low hp guy when suddenly your character does 180 and hits a guy with full hp.

hirukaru
10th Jan 2014, 23:30
How about a switch button:

Turn aim assist (Aim magnet): On/Off

Solved
Pro's put it off
Starters put it on.

Then make a seperate search function like:

Search: Only people with out aim assist (Can only be used when also not using aim assist)
Search: Only people with aim assist ( can only be used when using aim assist)
Search: Both groups (Can be used when using either aim assist or not)

But this will require some new coding into the match making. :rasp:

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jan 2014, 23:46
The more search categories you add (plus once there are playlists for different game modes, plus New Recruit, etc.) the harder it is to find matches because you're splitting the playerbase across a ton of matchmaking buckets.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 00:08
Melee autoaim targets dead bodies. If you're fighting in a crowd, killing one person can prevent you from reaching someone behind/around a body.
It specifically does not and I can't reproduce it here. If you stand near a dead body it will not adjust your rotation or aim whatsoever towards the corpse.


Autoaim will target the closest target, even if you're aiming at someone else. This makes focusing targets/picking off humans that are near each other very unreliable. You can drop someone to 10hp, but they can just run around teammates to stay alive, while shooting through their teammate. Humans don't have have any problems focusing down targets.
It uses a weighting system and I'm going to turn down how heavily it weighs proximity vs. angle (aim). There's already a maximum angle it will lock onto a target outside of your direct aim but it's possible there's latency issues with this.


All the downward smash attacks are unreliable, with high animation startup, and a narrow horizontal arc. Tyrant's first attack is pretty reliable (horizontal), his second much less (uppercut), and his third hit is the worst in the game (high startup downward smash with no horizontal arc). Charge attacks are the worst for tyrant, since he can only charge downward smashes. Sentinel has by far the best melee attacks with fast startup, and wide horizontal swipes that are reliable. His only downward smash attack is the third hit of his combo.
Agree that this is an issue.

jestdoit
11th Jan 2014, 00:31
Try this:

-Have a row of players stand in a line (give players varying distances, simulating actual combat).
-Spam combo attacks, trying to kill them as quickly as possible.

The dead bodies will cut off your combo, since it will autotarget the body instead of the next player, even after you've killed the target.

I'm actually in a game *right now* with Oroi watching my tyrant auto-target bodies - bodies probably shouldn't be considered at all for targetting. They shouldn't be attackable. What's happening is the body absorbs the hit, instead of the enemy player.

It won't make you do 180s like a live human would, but it will definitely cut your distance short and block melee attacks, if the body is in the way.

jestdoit
11th Jan 2014, 00:37
Ok just tested it further. Bodies WILL be autotargetted and block all *charge* attacks.

Thanks for the help zombie panic.

LOFO1993
11th Jan 2014, 00:38
I'm actually in a game *right now* with Oroi watching my tyrant auto-target bodies - bodies probably shouldn't be considered at all for targetting. They shouldn't be attackable. What's happening is the body absorbs the hit, instead of the enemy player.

It won't make you do 180s like a live human would, but it will definitely cut your distance short and block melee attacks, if the body is in the way.

I can testify this, it happens. If you try hitting someone who died like 1-2 seconds ago it gets aimed and it also makes the same sound you hear when you hit an alive enemy. Possibly a latency issue?

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 01:03
It happens, In my experience I have never noticed one absorb more than one hit, a body that has been fed upon doesn't seem to cause it though and the body has to be approximately in front of you.
I assume since it only happens when the tool tip for feeding comes up that it was because the body needed to be target able for feed.
I haven't noticed if it effects human attacks.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 01:23
The melee auto aim logic checks to make sure the target is both not dead and has more than 0 HP.

Oroibahazopi
11th Jan 2014, 01:25
This isn't the auto aim. It's the hit detection. Since you can only damage one thing having your attack absorbed by a dead body means you do 0 damage.

jestdoit
11th Jan 2014, 01:27
I should have specified unfed bodies. They'll block charge attacks 100 percent of the time. I don't know why it's doing that, but it's happening. Oroi, Zombie Jesus, Bobo, etc were watching us test it in a corner.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 01:36
OK found a few potential issues with unfed bodies. Thanks guys.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 02:59
OK fixed for a future patch:

- Downed humans no longer block melee movement and cannot be impacted by melee impact checks
- Melee attacks can hit more than one player
- Reduced threshold for melee attacks to pass cheat detection and latency thresholds (sometimes when you whiff it's actually cheat detection being overzealous and rejecting your hit)

Oroibahazopi
11th Jan 2014, 03:02
Does that cover attacking onto different elevations, e.g. up/down stairs and off ledges?

cmstache
11th Jan 2014, 03:14
OK fixed for a future patch:

- Downed humans no longer block melee movement and cannot be impacted by melee impact checks
- Melee attacks can hit more than one player
- Reduced threshold for melee attacks to pass cheat detection and latency thresholds (sometimes when you whiff it's actually cheat detection being overzealous and rejecting your hit)


Those second two MIGHT have just fixed 2 of the most glaring issues that have been plaguing vamps for months. Hi-five Corey. Also, I agree about the toggle. Running into a firewall when you were aiming slightly to the side of it is just dumb. A toggle feature for auto-aim would cover both worlds, and I like that idea.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jan 2014, 03:26
Does that cover attacking onto different elevations, e.g. up/down stairs and off ledges?

It should be better. You guys will have to let me know. A few smaller tweaks went in as well having to do with trace distance on the checks radiating out towards the vampire arm (we do two sets of traces, one lateral out from your body and one in the direction from your center of mass to your hand doing the attack) and that should help a bit with elevation differences.

Ultimately I think we're going to have to look at an alternate catchall solution to alleviate issues with things like Brute 2h slam attacks that have poor horizontal hit checks due to how the swing is animated.

Syst3mzero
11th Jan 2014, 05:50
OK fixed for a future patch:

- Downed humans no longer block melee movement and cannot be impacted by melee impact checks
- Melee attacks can hit more than one player
- Reduced threshold for melee attacks to pass cheat detection and latency thresholds (sometimes when you whiff it's actually cheat detection being overzealous and rejecting your hit)

Hey Corey, see retention is important because its your high lvl testers that brought up the point, were told it didn't happen and they imagined it, I pointed out it was unfed corpses, the others clarified that they also found its the unfed ones, that allowed you to find the problem. the high turnover of testers that I pointed out in other threads are why i'm warning you guys you think I'm threatening to quit because you read it with emotion. this is the kind of thing that makes alphas worth running but it is harder to find with testers who are new so you want to promote tester retention.