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Simmons
10th Aug 2008, 00:34
Simple question, what do you think?
The theme/themes, and which is the overall or most important/prominent?
Thanks!

jordan_a
10th Aug 2008, 00:54
Whaaaaaat?:scratch:

Simmons
10th Aug 2008, 01:13
as in what do you think is the theme, what themes do you see in deus ex 1.

Tsumaru
10th Aug 2008, 01:19
Transhumanism, corruption in government agencies, conspiracy theories, political philosophy (although that's more prevalent in IW)...

I dunno. I was never good at the whole "themes and motifs" crap at school.

Romeo
10th Aug 2008, 06:58
Teacher: Tsumaru, what themes did you find in "Death of a Salesman"?

Tsumaru: Death... Sales... And men?

urban_queen41
10th Aug 2008, 07:39
Haha XD

I've always felt the main theme to be humans playing God/the advancement of technology to imitate God, and to a lesser degree political corruption and desire for domination. For example, Helios wanting to merge with JC, and in essence controlling the world, the whole augmentations thing etc.

jordan_a
10th Aug 2008, 10:21
We have a thread about philosophy.

Visionary Man
11th Aug 2008, 11:20
It is a direct parody of our real political situation which is just exaggerated and extended. It is exposing, through fiction, the truth of how our own freemasonic occult fraternity shadow government are planning to conquer the world and play god. Even JC is a blatant messiah with the same initials as Jesus Christ. Everything the masons try to establish is a corrupt version of the creator's vision and accomplished through tyrany.

2012 will be the begining of the end. You have been warned. :)

Tsumaru
11th Aug 2008, 12:22
So what hilarious reasoning did you use to arbitrarily conclude that "2012 will be the beginning of the end"?

MaxxQ1
11th Aug 2008, 14:55
So what hilarious reasoning did you use to arbitrarily conclude that "2012 will be the beginning of the end"?

Probably the Mayan (or is it Aztec?) calender, which purportedly ends in 2012, and apparently ends because the world will be ending.

...or something like that.

minus0ne
11th Aug 2008, 16:58
We have a thread about philosophy.
What he said.


Political philosophy
The duality of Classicism and Romanticism
Humanism (and yes, "transhumanism")
Atheism
The unequal distribution of wealth, resources and technology (related to humanism)
Cyberpunk
Orwell's "1984"
Neuromancer
Metropolis
Anthropomorphism
Lord Acton's famous phrase

etc.

Urban_queen; I can't argue that's one of the themes, however you can not imitate what doesn't exist, that becomes invention.

K^2
11th Aug 2008, 17:31
Probably the Mayan (or is it Aztec?) calender, which purportedly ends in 2012, and apparently ends because the world will be ending.

...or something like that.
Never mind that silliness. The "end" is just a mistranslation, anyways. It is merely an end of a cycle, with a new cycle beginning. Maya believed in great changes at boundaries of cycles (there are also a whole bunch of smaller cycles) but they didn't anticipate a complete end of all by any measure.

Gyzome
11th Aug 2008, 19:45
Actually, the mayas were quite accurate with their prediction of a new cycle. With the invention of the microchip, a lot has changed in this world. And they were only 50 years off...

Unzerpum
11th Aug 2008, 20:01
Simple question, what do you think?
The theme/themes, and which is the overall or most important/prominent?
Thanks!

The main Deus Ex theme, definitely.

Buuuuuuum bad-a bah bah, bah baaaaah budda bum bum...

Though I'm also partial to the Synapse (Hong Kong streets) theme.

Biddle-iddle-iddle, iddle-iddle-iddle, biddle-id biddle-id BEEdle-id...

Oh, that wasn't what you meant, was it? :nut:

DXeXodus
12th Aug 2008, 04:43
Urban_queen; I can't argue that's one of the themes, however you can not imitate what doesn't exist, that becomes invention.

And you cannot claim that something doesn't exist if you have absoloutely no proof regarding it's non-existence.

Tsumaru
12th Aug 2008, 09:38
The main Deus Ex theme, definitely.

Buuuuuuum bad-a bah bah, bah baaaaah budda bum bum...

Though I'm also partial to the Synapse (Hong Kong streets) theme.

Biddle-iddle-iddle, iddle-iddle-iddle, biddle-id biddle-id BEEdle-id...

Oh, that wasn't what you meant, was it? :nut:

Oh I see what you did there. Very clever.



Probably the Mayan (or is it Aztec?) calender, which purportedly ends in 2012, and apparently ends because the world will be ending.
I expected as much as well. But the calendar certainly does NOT end in 2012.


Never mind that silliness. The "end" is just a mistranslation, anyways. It is merely an end of a cycle, with a new cycle beginning. Maya believed in great changes at boundaries of cycles (there are also a whole bunch of smaller cycles) but they didn't anticipate a complete end of all by any measure.
You're right. Although it's not a mistranslation. It's merely a miscalculation... or rather, the sudden stoppage of a calculation which should continue.

December 21st 2012 will be AN end, but merely the end of the 13th "bak'tun" (a cycle of sorts) in the Mayan Long Count calendar. Technically, December 20 will be the date 12.19.19.17.19 in the Long Count. The next day, December 21, would allegedly then not exist. For as December 20 ends, so too does the "calendar reach an end". This is just completely wrong. December 21 will merely be 13.0.0.0.0. And then December 22 will be 13.0.0.0.1 and so forth. The calendar itself ends on 19.19.19.17.19 (the second digit from the right rolls over to 0 when it reaches 18; all other digits roll over to 0 when reaching 20), with 20.0.0.0.0 being the true end of calendar equivalence of Dec 21 2012. This date won't be for a few thousand years yet, however - and thus it's hard to start a whole lot of fear about it.

But in case you don't believe me, I have a question for you. 12.0.0.0.0 occurred on September 18, 1618. Why does the world still exist? 12.0.0.0.0 is the equivalent to 13.0.0.0.0 (Dec 21 2012). Surely, in fact, the world must have ended 12 times by this logic? No, the reality is, the Mayan calendar is just that - a calendar. What happens every time we reach December 31st? The world doesn't end - we just roll over to January 1st again. Why should the Mayans be any different?
And in case you think the cycles are special in themselves. Well, feel free to research the following dates:
0.0.0.0.0 August 11, 3114 BCE
1.0.0.0.0 November 13, 2720 BCE
2.0.0.0.0 February 16, 2325 BCE
3.0.0.0.0 May 21, 1931 BCE
4.0.0.0.0 August 23, 1537 BCE
5.0.0.0.0 November 26, 1143 BCE
6.0.0.0.0 February 28, 748 BCE
7.0.0.0.0 June 3, 354 BCE
8.0.0.0.0 September 5, 41 CE
9.0.0.0.0 December 9, 435
10.0.0.0.0 March 13, 830
11.0.0.0.0 June 15, 1224
12.0.0.0.0 September 18, 1618
13.0.0.0.0 December 21, 2012

If you can find anything miraculous which happened for any of those, that would be interesting. If you can find something for ALL of them... then maybe I'll be willing to accept that SOMETHING will happen on December 21st 2012 - though still not the end of the world.




Urban_queen; I can't argue that's one of the themes, however you can not imitate what doesn't exist, that becomes invention.
And you cannot claim that something doesn't exist if you have absoloutely no proof regarding it's non-existence.
DXeXodus is right. Although I think an argument about the existence of God would be a bit out of place here (this coming from me lecturing on the Mayan calendar - I know!). However, I'd like to comment, that you can imitate what doesn't exist easily enough. It's invention, yes, but it's still imitation - imitation of a concept that already existed. Suppose that God doesn't exist, but I do have a picture of what God supposedly looks like and how he behaves. I can imitate his alleged behaviour quite easily, even though he doesn't exist. Although if you want to be pedantic, I guess what you'd say is I am not imitating God - I am imitating the representation of a non-existent God by people who made it all up. But yeah. What I'm trying to say is that Urban_queens point still stands perfectly well. I don't think she was trying to say one way or another where God does or doesn't exist - merely discuss the apparent imitation of him, or the aspiration to be Godlike. "We will be crowned its kings. Or better than kings... gods!"

DXeXodus
12th Aug 2008, 09:54
"We will be crowned its kings. Or better than kings... gods!"

That to me is the definitive quote of the game. It is said with such passion and determintation by Mr. Page. And I think the reference to god is not necessarily that of the 'creator of heavens and earth' but to god's in general, and the fact that they 'reign' over standard human beings according to mythological accounts.

Tsumaru
12th Aug 2008, 12:44
I concur.

Visionary Man
13th Aug 2008, 13:22
So what hilarious reasoning did you use to arbitrarily conclude that "2012 will be the beginning of the end"?

The fact that it is a pivotal year for the secret religious organisations that rule the world. Because numerous magic practitioners have been given visions and warnings about this year. 12 is the number representing judgement, 13 being the critical mystical number for judgement and rulership. (1 christ + 12 apostles and all the religious parodies that are similar). And also because the US will have their mission critical, satalite based energy weapons in space and operational just in time for then. Once they have them up they're not going to bother playing nice anymore.

Visionary Man
13th Aug 2008, 13:30
Never mind that silliness. The "end" is just a mistranslation, anyways. It is merely an end of a cycle, with a new cycle beginning. Maya believed in great changes at boundaries of cycles (there are also a whole bunch of smaller cycles) but they didn't anticipate a complete end of all by any measure.

? What is mistranslated? It will be the end of an era whichever way you look at it. I do not mean the end of the world. But pretty well the end of society as we know it now. It will be the begining of domination of our world by despots.

Lets hope the bible's right and they'll have their WW3 against the marxists, their war on religion, claim peace and security and then get their arse kicked.

El_Bel
13th Aug 2008, 14:38
And also because the US will have their mission critical, satalite based energy weapons in space and operational just in time for then. Once they have them up they're not going to bother playing nice anymore.

Look, just on science fiction world powers have unlimited amount of power. Truth is that even if US had power to fight war on all sides, their economy would crash in just a few months. Even then, they would have to fight the Americans!! Deus ex gives a very good image of what would happen if someone tried to conquer the world!!

Satellite energy weapons? Where are they going to get the power for the weapons? Please stop watching Star Wars :p

Visionary Man
13th Aug 2008, 16:36
Watch all 4 parts of this then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQWUmswZCQ&feature=related

Visionary Man
13th Aug 2008, 17:06
Look, just on science fiction world powers have unlimited amount of power. Truth is that even if US had power to fight war on all sides, their economy would crash in just a few months.


The economy is well in hand of the financial institutions and rich elite. They have been putting enough investment in for a long time in preperation for it. And the 500 odd billion a year that the US military budget has on the go is pretty much global domination proportions on it's own. Put that with the EU's combined effort and that's a lot of firepower. You won't even be able to account for all the R&D that's come from private investment.

The satelite technology is a reality. Just look up the Sace Based Laser Integrated Flight Experiment (SBL IFX) to discover their launch projections.

The anti russian/chinese philosophy propoganda is increasing, more and more espionage leaks are occuring and the "recession" is forcing the small to semi-large banks and companies into the hands of the large corps. Increasing fuel prices also putting greater pressure on the poor to middle classes. Massively disproportionate media focus on environmental damage being caused by transport and the individual consumer rather than focusing on the greatest polluters in industry and aviation. E.g. extra tax on the pump vs subsidies for planes.

Like the first "terrorist leader" you interrogate in Deus Ex 1 says... Consolidation. And it is happening right before our eyes.

Lets face it. The bush and bin ladens have had the US and Saudi's working together to gain ground in the middle east. These have all really been proxy wars with Russia and China. Saudi and Iran have very similar regimes... but the bin ladens do deals with the US and iran does deals with the russians and chinese.

The world is split down the middle and Israel and Iran are at the heart of the conflict. It will kick off but not till the US is ready.

minus0ne
13th Aug 2008, 17:23
And you cannot claim that something doesn't exist if you have absoloutely no proof regarding it's non-existence.
Ooh I haven't ever heard that before! You see, in science (actual proper science, not the Christian Science/Intelligent Design cult) there's a different creed: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The existence of one or several omnipotent universe-creating beings classifies as an extraordinary claim in my book :p Except there's no extraordinary proof, and there never will be, as theists cleverly try to put the burden of (dis)proof on the atheists.

So while extraordinary claims like the Higgs-Boson and black holes can be put to the test at CERN for example, it'll be quite some time if ever, until we'll be doing that 'final' experiment. Of course we're coming so close to the moment of the big bang it's not inconceivable, as it once was, that we'll be getting a peek of the moments before the big bang some day (I'm talking about way, way into the future, of course), so who knows, our grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-children may have a very different debate one day.

It's the classic logical fallacy stalemate that'll be with us for quite some time, but I don't let that stop me ;) All I meant to say to urban_queen, is that it's not imitation of 'god', but rather imitation of the god-archetype, and nonetheless plain human invention.

Visionary Man
13th Aug 2008, 21:59
The existence of one or several omnipotent universe-creating beings classifies as an extraordinary claim in my book :p Except there's no extraordinary proof, and there never will be, as theists cleverly try to put the burden of (dis)proof on the atheists.



So what is your explanation of Ouija boards and ghost experiences?

Jimmy Rabbitte
13th Aug 2008, 22:07
So what is your explanation of Ouija boards and ghost experiences?

Pure bull****. In fact the show Penn & Teller: Bull****! proved that it was bull****. As if it needed to be proven :rolleyes:

People who tell you the Ouija board has real mystical properties is either misinformed or is trying to scam you out of a buck. It's just the people moving it. Furthermore, the so-called "scientific" techniques these "ghost hunters" use have been examined by real experts and have been deemed, well, completely ****ng whimsical.



Wow, this is theme of Deus Ex 1? Talk about off topic.

minus0ne
13th Aug 2008, 23:10
So what is your explanation of Ouija boards and ghost experiences?
The human psyche ;) To be honest I wasn't sure if I should dignify your query with an answer, seeing the track record of your '2012' posts (that is to say, your posts about the 2012 cult, not your 2012 posts :p ).

I should have added to my previous post that it's not in any way the aim of science to disprove theism, just that there might come a day when we will, by chance or as a side effect of an unrelated experiment, discover things that couldn't possibly rhyme with theistic theory (and yet even then people will try to rhyme theism with The Origin of Species, but then again some people are just masochistic about their faith that way).

So while science hasn't ever tried to disprove god's existence, religious people love to create new movements which do try to attack science in malicious ways (such as the Intelligent Design camp), and even try to hamper the extent of which science is taught in schools, which is just downright criminal.

/end rant

(sorry if that went off-topic and dragged on for too long)

El_Bel
14th Aug 2008, 00:47
The economy is well in hand of the financial institutions and rich elite. They have been putting enough investment in for a long time in preperation for it. And the 500 odd billion a year that the US military budget has on the go is pretty much global domination proportions on it's own. Put that with the EU's combined effort and that's a lot of firepower. You won't even be able to account for all the R&D that's come from private investment.

The satelite technology is a reality. Just look up the Sace Based Laser Integrated Flight Experiment (SBL IFX) to discover their launch projections.

The anti russian/chinese philosophy propoganda is increasing, more and more espionage leaks are occuring and the "recession" is forcing the small to semi-large banks and companies into the hands of the large corps. Increasing fuel prices also putting greater pressure on the poor to middle classes. Massively disproportionate media focus on environmental damage being caused by transport and the individual consumer rather than focusing on the greatest polluters in industry and aviation. E.g. extra tax on the pump vs subsidies for planes.

Like the first "terrorist leader" you interrogate in Deus Ex 1 says... Consolidation. And it is happening right before our eyes.

Lets face it. The bush and bin ladens have had the US and Saudi's working together to gain ground in the middle east. These have all really been proxy wars with Russia and China. Saudi and Iran have very similar regimes... but the bin ladens do deals with the US and iran does deals with the russians and chinese.

The world is split down the middle and Israel and Iran are at the heart of the conflict. It will kick off but not till the US is ready.

Lets see, laser technology is by no means a super weapon technology.Even if they did manage to get those babies up to space and found a way to power them, it would hardly make a difference. I can say that i would feel safer if every nuclear power has some of them in space. Its the first step away from massive nuclear war. And those lasers can pose no real threat to a ground unit.

You make some mistakes about economy as well. You think that all the money the elite makes are shared between them and between the states so they can control the world. But this isnt the case. There is an invisible war (:p) right now between every rich man against each other. They are in each others throat! If they unite they could have a chance but now... nah it cant happen.

As for spirits and ****. Well i dont exactly know what to think, i have lives some weird stuff, but i dont think you can find any truth in Ouija boards. Or that every man that says he has a vision must be believed. The mind plays many tricks. I can only accept cases that can not be explained with science and i know the person and i trust him that he says the truth. So the "Some people had visions about 2012" is no proof for me.

ps: EU bad guy is Germany.. as always :p Just this time they have bigger company!! :eek:

jcp28
14th Aug 2008, 02:57
So what is your explanation of Ouija boards and ghost experiences?

Ouija board do not do as advertised. They are nothing but nonsense.

As for ghost experiences, I remain a healthy skeptic.

And you are way too paranoid. None of the stuff you listed mmeans that WWIII is coming, as i believe you are trying to imply here.

DXeXodus
15th Aug 2008, 05:02
This is not the place for a religious debate/pissing contest so,

I think this thread either goes back on topic or it gets closed.

Tsumaru
15th Aug 2008, 11:02
LOLOL ANOTHER CONSPIRACY NUT, THEY'RE EVERYWHERE


The fact that it is a pivotal year for the secret religious organisations that rule the world.
Teehehehehee, SOOO secret that you know all about them!


Now, back on topic... I think probably transhumanism. Wait, did I already say that? *flees*

El_Bel
15th Aug 2008, 18:22
uhm, erase this..

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 08:34
[QUOTE=Jimmy Rabbitte;793531]Pure bull****. In fact the show Penn & Teller: Bull****! proved that it was bull****. As if it needed to be proven :rolleyes:

People who tell you the Ouija board has real mystical properties is either misinformed or is trying to scam you out of a buck. It's just the people moving it. Furthermore, the so-called "scientific" techniques these "ghost hunters" use have been examined by real experts and have been deemed, well, completely ****ng whimsical.


QUOTE]


It does need proving. Just because there are illusionists out there doesn't mean that all divination is phony. I've seen it work, things move around the room... and even to the point of my mother coming in contact with one woman who was hysterical in fear after the board spelt out the name of her mother. This was bad because the board had spelt out other relatives and they had died within the week. Everyone I know who has dabbled extensively discover there is more to it than simple science can explain. Are you so sure your "real" experts are real?

There is a very specific agenda by the freemasons to indoctrinate the public that there is no god. They are planning a war on organised religion after they've finally got the thorn of marxism out of their side. Don't forget that carbon dating came from the university of chicago... funded by Rockafella... and major "discoveries" about our supposed human history have come from universities funded by other rich bum chums of his.

And your "religious" disbelief is not shared, funnily enough, by those who are rich and famous. Perhaps you can tell me why so many of our western politicians, capitalist moguls and media creators and owners practise occult and kabbalah rituals.

Just look up how many people of our elite are members of such orders as The order of Golden Dawn, Freemasons, skull and bones etc... They don't need to be secret about who are their members. They only need to be secret about what is talked about in their meetings.

And no... they're no so secret we haven't heard about them in this day when there still is an independant press. But they are secret enough that Bush and Kelly would diverge no details about their co-invovlement when interviewed. You can watch on you tube the interviews to see the proof.

Why are our laws throughout the EU and US systematically being changed to favour a plutocracy? Corporations are systematicaly paying less and less tax, are impossible to hold accountable for things like corporate manslaughter or environmental destruction while more and more laws are coming out giving power to police and tax the individual?

Sorry but whether you believe in God or not is irrelavent. We have religious orders that are trying to play god just like the pope and vatican used to... but this time just not overtly. Otherwise the revolution has a clear direction.

The facts speak for themselves. Illegal invasions. Proxy Wars. Systematic globalisation in all markets. Carefully crafted legislation. Forged elections. Oil and Resource wars. Anti communist and religious propaganda. Do you really believe this the work of a genuinely democratically "lets all muddle our way through this" elected, equal opportunities, fight for what's right government?

That, i'm afraid, is the most foolish religious belief of all.

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 09:04
Lets see, laser technology is by no means a super weapon technology.Even if they did manage to get those babies up to space and found a way to power them, it would hardly make a difference. I can say that i would feel safer if every nuclear power has some of them in space. Its the first step away from massive nuclear war. And those lasers can pose no real threat to a ground unit.

You make some mistakes about economy as well. You think that all the money the elite makes are shared between them and between the states so they can control the world. But this isnt the case. There is an invisible war (:p) right now between every rich man against each other. They are in each others throat! If they unite they could have a chance but now... nah it cant happen.




There's plenty of ways to power the thing. The oil and power companies have squashed numerous incredible energy producing devices from getting main stream media attention. In fact it all started with Nikola Tesla... but just his designs alone would get enough energy out of space-time to power a fleet of them. And there's been plenty of advancements since. JP Morgan and his crew twigged the importance of his inventions though and surpressed the info. Then have sytematically been bringing out and developing his work behind the scenes. His work started the space race you know. A little bit of quantum physics research and you'll find out all about him... especially since the 50 yr rule got applied to the gov. files on Tesla.l

And corporate competition in our modern western globalised day is all part of the illusion of choice. Obviously not everyone is part of the club. But enough of them that are rich enough stand RELIGIOUSLY united. Just on the local scene... if there's a building contract to be had... a freemason is most likely to get it. Or if planning permission needs to be granted... a freemason will get it where the average joe just gets told "sorry, green belt".

If the club is big enough and rich enough then it would not be hard to put pressure on the economy by closing up the credit availability and speculating on markets to drive down share prices and drive oil prices up. And as they've been doing that... go look up how many small to medium large business have had to go, cap in hand, to a Rothchild owned bank... asking for funding to save them from insolvency.

Just follow the financial markets. Follow the political dialogue. Look at the legislation that is being churned out. Listen to how many of our elite are gunning for a "New World Order". This is a religious phrase and a religious ideology. The members of these groups work together unified in belief... and i've seen what religious belief can do for individual's determination.

If there are islamists who are more than willing to sacrifice their life to fight the "New World Order", there are rich people more than willing to give their work to their "brothers" and spend some of their easy earned cash to faclilitate it. Especially as it is their families which will be protected in the impending destruction.

K^2
16th Aug 2008, 09:40
There's plenty of ways to power the thing. The oil and power companies have squashed numerous incredible energy producing devices from getting main stream media attention.

No, they have not. Oil companies managed to delay advance of electric car by nearly a decade, but that's as much power as they have. And even in that, they have had help of the motor companies.

There are precisely two energy sources known to man: Chemical and Nuclear. In addition, energy can be stored reasonably well mechanically, for example, using giant flywheels. Chemical and mechanical energy has very little energy/mass density of storage. If you want to use something big in space, you have to go nuclear.

The only way to power military-grade lasers in space is to build a nuclear power plant on orbit. I'm not talking about tiny fission cells. I'm talking about a steam generating reactor, turbines, generators, cooling tower, and all the support systems that go along with that.

Tessla was a nut. He was brilliant, but also insane, and got crazier with age. Most of his late "inventions" are pure nonsense. If you believe any of them to operate, you are either delusional, or really need to go back to school and actually learn something. I suspect the later is true.

People have came up with a concept of science because it lets us filter out nonsense like that. Granted, there are things that go beyond the scope of modern science. But things you are talking about aren't in the gray area of unknown. These are things that have been well studied and found to be bogus.

And if you think there is a way to hide something in academia, you don't know anything about it. I know the Physics behind every secret weapon deployed or in development in any major country. Why? Because the physics isn't the know-how. It is the engineering of the thing that might cost millions of dollars, and without that, you won't be able to build the beast with all your knowledge of how it works.

Consider the A-bomb. Everyone who knows any nuclear physics and physics of explosions knows how to build one. I don't mean just where the energy comes from, but can actually perform computations to within a fraction of a percent. But its that fraction of a percent that gets you. It has to be obtained experimentally and that costs money. That's why despite everyone knowing how to build one, only a handful of countries actually has one.

Note that the above was the case even when the A-bomb was top-secret. The moment US knew that Germans are trying to build one, they knew how to build one of their own. They just needed time and money. The moment US leveled Hiroshima, Soviets knew how to build one as well. And again, it was only a matter of investing time and money into the project.

With all of this in mind, if someone tells me that government of any country is building a weapon based on an unknown to scientific community principal, I know it to be total B.S.

Tsumaru
16th Aug 2008, 10:19
And here comes the lock...

El_Bel
16th Aug 2008, 11:08
And corporate competition, or better corporate all out WAR exists. Give me some proof that they are religiously united. You just read too much conspiracy theories. You should try reading some debunking conspiracy theories as well..

Organized religion has always been with the side of the rich. They need religion to control people. What they dont like is people make their own religions. Find their own truth.

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 12:16
No, they have not. Oil companies managed to delay advance of electric car by nearly a decade, but that's as much power as they have. And even in that, they have had help of the motor companies.

There are precisely two energy sources known to man: Chemical and Nuclear. In addition, energy can be stored reasonably well mechanically, for example, using giant flywheels. Chemical and mechanical energy has very little energy/mass density of storage. If you want to use something big in space, you have to go nuclear.

The only way to power military-grade lasers in space is to build a nuclear power plant on orbit. I'm not talking about tiny fission cells. I'm talking about a steam generating reactor, turbines, generators, cooling tower, and all the support systems that go along with that.




What are you talking about?? Quantum physics has identified that there is nothing but energy all around us! Electro-magnetism is as much a nuance of the nature of space time as is gravity and nuclear forces. Chemical energy is just an exchange of energy on a nuclear level anyway. It sounds like you're the one that needs to go back to school.

And history is full of examples of the scientific mainstream giving unwarranted criticism to discoveries that don't suit their political/religious agenda or put their funding sources at risk. Edison did such to Tesla and it was only recently that patents were awarded back to telsa for inventions that for years had been falsely attributed to others. Edison's "first" lightbulbs couldn't even be sold at auction in recent years because everyone now knows he was a fraud.

Cold Fusion, HHO and motors utilising negative/dark/space-time (whatever you want to call it) energy are all invented and replicated in laboratories around the world. Even small time mechanics have working models made at home. But there isn't the confidence to get the funding to turn these into mass manufactured and developed products because the freemasonic corps won't touch it and the others are **** scared because of other "reputable" academics slating it as fraud.

I've watched conspiracy theory "debunks". Most of them take ludicrous aspects of the "theory"... debunk those (as if any rational thinker couldn't for themselves) and then crow on that they've proven the whole thing false. They certainly fall far short of finding a rational explanation for the gaps in phenomena we can see.

And by the way... there's a big difference between what is known in the scientific community and what is public mainstream concern. Donald Ewen Cameron published his work on brainwashing for MKULTRA in reputable scientific journals. Most of everything gets published somewhere for an enthusiast to find. In case you hadn't noticed though... most of our public are too busy consuming the latest gadgets and celeb gossip to give a ****. The art of misdirection my friend. Not everyone will be fooled by an illusion or a magic trick, but as long as enough do so that you have a show... then you'll get your applause, right?

If you believe that some how the scientific method has given the scientific community credentials to now be raised above all political and religious agenda; you are wrong. There are MORE scientists and academics with either a funding or a philosophical agenda, in our academic communities, than stick whole souled to the method itself.

Even Christoper Reeve testified to that when expressing his frustrations. He spent a lot of time trying to encourage and fund stem cell research for obvious personal reasons. But he found it very difficult to work around the fact that so many labs were just looking for the results which would secure their next years funding. Either doctoring results to fit a pre concieved agenda, or simply looking for a semi-substantial sensationalist claim which would bag some media attention. This is the truth of our acedemic institutions.

Many genuine scientists who have a sincere passion for their study become marginalised, discredited or even declared fraudulent or mad if their results conflict with current academic tradition. In the old days it was when you claimed the world was round and contravened the pope. These days it's if you claim you can power the world without oil, coal, gas or hot fusion in relatively safe and easy to manage devices. If there's a risk you can't meter it then it must be a fraud... funny that isn't it.

El_Bel
16th Aug 2008, 13:17
Oh hear comes cold fusion. I could believe it is possible, but i dont believe that they suspend free energy. It is just ridiculous. If cold fusion exists we will see it in the following years. No one is suspending anything. They are just skeptical. And i am too. Have you made it work yet? Half the labs say that they cant. Half the labs say the can. So no one is holding the technology back. It is just not ready yet.

Big corporations would be the only ones who would gain from cold fusion. The goal of every corporation is to drive the cost of production down while gaining the same money. It would be a gift from God if they could produce free energy!!

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 13:23
The human psyche ;) To be honest I wasn't sure if I should dignify your query with an answer, seeing the track record of your '2012' posts (that is to say, your posts about the 2012 cult, not your 2012 posts :p ).

I should have added to my previous post that it's not in any way the aim of science to disprove theism, just that there might come a day when we will, by chance or as a side effect of an unrelated experiment, discover things that couldn't possibly rhyme with theistic theory (and yet even then people will try to rhyme theism with The Origin of Species, but then again some people are just masochistic about their faith that way).

So while science hasn't ever tried to disprove god's existence, religious people love to create new movements which do try to attack science in malicious ways (such as the Intelligent Design camp), and even try to hamper the extent of which science is taught in schools, which is just downright criminal.

/end rant

(sorry if that went off-topic and dragged on for too long)


Science has been as much used irrationaly as a tool to disprove theism as theism has irrationaly attempted to disprove facts upheld by the scientific method. Either side has had political or financial agendas.

F**k em all if you ask me and make up your own mind. I'm not a part of a religion, nor do I bow to any academic fraternity or political group. I personaly believe that all said such groups are despicable. I am an anarchist... or at least believe that all individuals should be socially independant but working together with the same ethical ideology. With or without a god I believe that the human race will advance greatly with just one principle law of self govenance "Treat others as you would want them to treat you."

Obviously it is in current human nature to work socially together and co-operate to further one group's interests over individuals, so it never works... Still it is the theoretical and philosophical ideal if you ask me.

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 13:33
Oh hear comes cold fusion. I could believe it is possible, but i dont believe that they suspend free energy. It is just ridiculous. If cold fusion exists we will see it in the following years. No one is suspending anything. They are just skeptical. And i am too. Have you made it work yet? Half the labs say that they cant. Half the labs say the can. So no one is holding the technology back. It is just not ready yet.

Big corporations would be the only ones who would gain from cold fusion. The goal of every corporation is to drive the cost of production down while gaining the same money. It would be a gift from God if they could produce free energy!!

If it could be developed to work 100% of the time for a fraction of the investment that it takes to get into the current energy market then I see a clear reason why big corps would NOT benefit from investing in the science to explain why it works a third of the time in current lab tests.

Same with free energy. If every goon could buy a generator for their house or every council could buy one for their towns... and get off the national grid, then where would all the major energy and fossil fuel companies be?

El_Bel
16th Aug 2008, 13:41
They would produce the generators?

Please, this is getting ridiculous. You think in terms of world kings with absolute power who gain their power from fossil fuel.

There is only money. This is the only force.Free energy is a win-win.

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 13:49
And corporate competition, or better corporate all out WAR exists. Give me some proof that they are religiously united. You just read too much conspiracy theories. You should try reading some debunking conspiracy theories as well..

Organized religion has always been with the side of the rich. They need religion to control people. What they dont like is people make their own religions. Find their own truth.

You can look up the list of famous and powerful freemasons on freemasonic websites. These are not secret societies... just societies with secrets. Just start reading up about the mystic schools and the development of occultism through the last century.

Look up Aleister Crowley and all his mates. He did a lot of work in uniting the various ancient schools. And research MI5 and MI6's involvement with him as a double agent between UK and Germany.

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 13:56
They would produce the generators?

Please, this is getting ridiculous. You think in terms of world kings with absolute power who gain their power from fossil fuel.

There is only money. This is the only force.Free energy is a win-win.

Uh... no. I think of the world in terms of a "western" plutocracy held in place by a shadow government who are subversively trying to hold all the keys to world domination and are working together to instigate one world government. There is no absoloute power... each "Rite" works together and retains its own personal sovreignty. They're bound together by philosophical and religious ideology. Why is this so hard to believe?

Resource management is one of the principle means of domination. These inventions would take one area of control away and put it back in the hands of every third world country out there.

El_Bel
16th Aug 2008, 14:16
I have some views for Crowley from the inside.. Dont ask.. You just overestimate him. I wouldn't believe i would talk about magic in a Deus Ex forum lol. Anyway, crowley never had power to conspire against people. He was just a good salesman.


Resource management is one of the principle means of domination. These inventions would take one area of control away and put it back in the hands of every third world country out there.

And big countries would bully them just the same. Nothing would change. Just that electricity would not be for sale anymore or it would be much more cheap.

Even if there is a conspiracy, they have nothing to loose. They would just transfer the power they gain from oil to another area of the industry.

Visionary Man
16th Aug 2008, 14:45
I have some views for Crowley from the inside.. Dont ask.. You just overestimate him. I wouldn't believe i would talk about magic in a Deus Ex forum lol. Anyway, crowley never had power to conspire against people. He was just a good salesman.



And big countries would bully them just the same. Nothing would change. Just that electricity would not be for sale anymore or it would be much more cheap.

Even if there is a conspiracy, they have nothing to loose. They would just transfer the power they gain from oil to another area of the industry.

If Crowley was *just* a good salesman... then he certainly sold his ideas to those with a lot of money and influence. I never said Crowley was conspiring anything... he had his own personal reasons for pursuing the ethical and spiritual tack he did. He still had a lot of powerful friends though.

And they would have a lot to lose in terms of time scales. This technology won't be surpressed forever... just long enough to gain enough of an advantage on the world scene to gain enough dominance to win.

Contigents happen within any plan. The way the mystic schools have dealt with this one is to discredit it enough to stall it's development until they are ready for it. Which won't be till after the marxists are out of the way. Lenin was convinced that marxism would come to a head with capitalism and I don't see any evidence that that belief is diminishing in the east.

I just see Russia and China playing us at our own game to strengthen their development and economy in preperation for the coming conflict. And I see them bagging as many possible allies as they can get.

CarloGervasi
16th Aug 2008, 14:54
"You can't fight ideas with bullets" was the big theme IMO.

minus0ne
16th Aug 2008, 16:21
Too bad Deus Ex attracts utter nutcases like this :(

Visionary Man, go peddle your NWO/freemason/conspiracy spam bull**** elsewhere, I'm sure there's an Alex Jones fansite forum somewhere where you'd be most welcome.

Demiurge
16th Aug 2008, 17:43
Visionary Man, the sad truth and big secret of the world is this: The world is just the same boring old, conspiracy-free place as is shown when you turn on the news. (Well, for me at least, I watch BBC). Governments are far too incompetent to create globe-spanning, powerful conspiracies, they are full of leaks of all kinds and any conspiracy that was created really wouldn't last long. Corporations are in the same boat, but they are still vulnerable to Government and the laws of Economics. Secret societies, ah yes. They do exist and are not as exciting as you make them out to be. The Freemasons are a group of people in various positions of power who help each other gain more power and wealth (Often illicitly) but have no conspiracy, and mainly they just get drunk at gatherings, and membership is not that hard to obtain. The truth is incredibly boring I know, but that is why Deus Ex is fun. A game featuring a departure from reality spells entertainment in My Book.

Oh, and Ouija boards are a pile of $h1te too.

/End mini-rant

Tsumaru
17th Aug 2008, 03:05
I hate to make a Scadvid-style comment, but it seems our mods decided to disappear when we actually need them do something useful after they spent so much time over-"moderating" the perfectly decent areas.

As for Crowley, he was a hypocrite. Without even getting into debates on the (un)reality of "magic", at the core fundamentals he preaches yoga and personal betterment, and yet he was a drug addict, hedonist, and if I recall correctly for a fair portion of his later life he was overweight and quite unhealthy. And this is nothing to speak of his bigotry - both blatantly racist and sexist.

Of course, none of that matters. I haven't the slightest clue what relevance you think he has to this (completely absurd) discussion at all anyway.

Demiurge
17th Aug 2008, 06:43
With a game full of conspiracies I suppose you have to expect a few conspiracy nuts to come along.

Visionary Man
17th Aug 2008, 07:23
So... will you eat your words if we DO go to war with russia/china + allies within the next few years?

At what point will you think again? Before or after the vatican are ousted and crushed?

If i'm such a nut case nothing I predict will come true.

If you're not burying your head then you will be right.

May fate decide... don't say you weren't warned though. :)

Debate over.

Tsumaru
17th Aug 2008, 08:09
I will eat my words if every single thing you have said proves to be correct, or at least a strong majority of it. Short of that, I'm going to continue to laugh and laugh and laugh.

Of course, I'm sure the "secret religious organisations running the world" could care less about my laughter. You're the one they're going to oust and kill with their occult superpowers before you ruin their plans for year 2012 world domination. Don't say you weren't warned.

K^2
17th Aug 2008, 08:10
What are you talking about?? Quantum physics has identified that there is nothing but energy all around us! Electro-magnetism is as much a nuance of the nature of space time as is gravity and nuclear forces. Chemical energy is just an exchange of energy on a nuclear level anyway. It sounds like you're the one that needs to go back to school.
Don't ever make references to Quantum Physics if you don't know any of it.

Quantum Mechanics makes absolutely no predictions on energy of matter. E=mc^2 is purely a Relativistic result, and has to be shoved into Quantum Mechanics rather forcefully to get Dirac's Equation and other results from High Energy QM. Seeing how I'm actually doing a Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics, and my current research is in relativistic QM, you need to just listen up, and take what I'm about to tell you as solid facts. Unless you've studied Quantum Mechanics for several years and have a deep background in General Relativity, it'd be a waste of time to get into any form of debate over details.

General Relativity states that the cause of gravitational attraction is the energy density. It also states that gravitational and innertial masses are equivalent. Ergo, mass is energy.

High Energy Quantum Mechanics gives us an interesting result. Certain particles exist as positive an negative mass pairs. Dirac proposed that these are matter and anti-matter particles. What this translates to, in terms of General Relativity, is opposing momenta in timeward direction. This gives us a famous result, proposed by Feynman, that matter and anti-matter propagates in opposite directions in time.

What you can further derive from this is a very interesting result, that the total difference between matter and anti-matter is conserved. This is similar to charge conservation law, and indeed, the later is the direct consequence of matter-anti-matter conservation.

This states that you cannot convert matter into energy without having anti-matter at your disposal. All you can do is go from a higher excited state to a lower excited state to get energy out of it.

The only excitations we know how to work with are electron excitation (Chemical Energy) and nucleon excitations (Nuclear Energy).

Now, anti-matter. Nobody can produce or store a sufficient amount of it at this time. Also, we'll never find any natural sources of it for reasons that I'd rather not get into explanation of. So again, you're stuck with Chemical or Nuclear energy.

Finally, I'm not talking about general public. I don't care what general public knows or does not know. I'm part of the scientific community, and I'm aware of all ongoing research related to energy production or storage. I can tell you that nuclear batteries are being worked on, and they have materials that can store scary amount of energy for many years. However, nobody knows how to control the rate of charge/discharge. The best known material can have 1,000 times better capacity than best batteries, but it would take 80 years to charge it half-full, and then another 80 to get half of that charge back.

I can also tell you that we have ways to sustain Cold Fusion. Unfortunately, it takes a source of muons, which require more energy than output of the CF device.

Basically, there are plenty of interesting things happening with high energy, but none of it will yield anything more powerful than Nuclear Reactor or more compact than a battery for at least the next decade. More realistically, I'd say commercially justified Tokamak Fusion in 30-50 years, and compact nuclear batteries in 20-30 years.

Tsumaru
17th Aug 2008, 08:13
OH NOES, K^2 IS ONE OF THE EVIL SCIENTISTS WORKING FOR AN ALTERIOR POLITICAL SLASH RELIGIOUS AGENDA!! Everyone hide!

Clucky
17th Aug 2008, 08:21
Visionary, I'm sure you can see why K2's research is far more believable than your own. You have little proof for your statements, and all your predictions are based around circumstantial happenings, and perfectly believable coincidences. Should you have any hard evidence of any conspiracy, I would believe. I think there are more sceptics (Yes, I'm British :rasp: ) here than debunkers. We'd all be happy to believe you, should you infiltrate the Pope's secret base, break into his safe and bring back his "How to Achieve World Domination" handbook. :)

K2. Good luck on your PhD. Unless... You are one of these Frankenstein's who want to control the world through the use of theoretical physics. If you are, please contact me. I would love to become a larger part of your shady operations. :)

Demiurge
17th Aug 2008, 10:09
Christ! I wouldn't argue with K^2 about Physics (My Nightmares given form). What I will say is good luck with the degree mate and hope we hear that kind of dialogue in-game, I love researching stuff. Makes for a more engrossing game too.

minus0ne
17th Aug 2008, 14:46
Don't ever make references to Quantum Physics if you don't know any of it.
I've often heard great scientific minds say that no one in the world really understands quantum mechanics (including Niels Bohr himself iirc).

Now, anti-matter. Nobody can produce or store a sufficient amount of it at this time. Also, we'll never find any natural sources of it for reasons that I'd rather not get into explanation of. So again, you're stuck with Chemical or Nuclear energy.
I find it odd that as a physics student, you'd get this wrong. Positrons, the antimatter counterpart of electrons, are used on a modest scale in Positron Emission Tomography. I'm not talking energy generation here, but your statement still doesn't make sense.

I can also tell you that we have ways to sustain Cold Fusion. Unfortunately, it takes a source of muons, which require more energy than output of the CF device.
CF is not meant to generate energy, but to use energy to produce substances.

Basically, there are plenty of interesting things happening with high energy, but none of it will yield anything more powerful than Nuclear Reactor or more compact than a battery for at least the next decade. More realistically, I'd say commercially justified Tokamak Fusion in 30-50 years, and compact nuclear batteries in 20-30 years.
Fusion in 30 years is common knowledge, but I'd like to see how you arrived at nuclear batteries. Aside from the (rather obvious) toxic waste issue, why the hell would we need nuclear batteries?

Demiurge
17th Aug 2008, 17:43
I think I read somewhere (I think in New Scientist), that it is possible to find sources/deposits/ways of harvesting antimatter out there in space, but I'm not too sure about how, it was a long time ago and I think the article was about powering spacecraft. We already have tokamak reactors (ITER and I know you mean when we will have them commercially) and another one being built (I think in Japan). The obvious advantages of nuclear batteries would be that your gadgets could outlive you, making for a much cleaner device than one which requires you throw out two alkali batteries every three months, resulting in piles of junk being dumped in china and leaking poisonous fluids. The Nuclear batteries will be treated differently and stored safely, only problem being that anyone could get access to nuclear materials and meaning that the US's list of "Rogue States" would quadruple overnight. Lots more wars to be fought!

DXeXodus
18th Aug 2008, 04:35
@Visionary man: This forum is obviously not for you. This is where gamers talk about Deus Ex 3. Please try and stay on topic.

@Tsumaru: Your "Scadvid-like" comment is most unappreciated. We as mods try our best to keep things in check here. Alot of people here tend to get out of hand and you need some kind of control method to make sure the forum doesn't come off the rails. So what we do is not "over-moderation" as you state, but rather, it is simply "moderation". Live with it or don't bother coming here.

So please try to stay on topic guys. Lets not bring personal agendas into this. You are more than entitled to your own opinions, but forcing them onto others is unacceptable.

Visionary Man
24th Aug 2008, 23:14
Visionary, I'm sure you can see why K2's research is far more believable than your own. You have little proof for your statements, and all your predictions are based around circumstantial happenings, and perfectly believable coincidences. Should you have any hard evidence of any conspiracy, I would believe. I think there are more sceptics (Yes, I'm British :rasp: ) here than debunkers. We'd all be happy to believe you, should you infiltrate the Pope's secret base, break into his safe and bring back his "How to Achieve World Domination" handbook. :)



I'll give you that most of the case is circumnstantial. but with enough circumstances fitting a unified theory I can no longer believe that it is a "theory" of crazy people and those looking for a bit of excitement.

The tight collaberation between politicians and company directors (e.g. Bilderberg conferences) means that it is without a doubt that those in power are serving their own interests. There is a lot of bribery and corruption amongst our elite and it is reported daily if you pay it mind. Start doing the research on who knows who and does deals with who and the picture gets more than fishy.

Throw in the amount of times mystic religions and zionism crop up in peoples biographies and thing just start getting weirder.

Britain is no stranger to using corps to aid rule from the shadows and used the Honourable East India Company to do just that.

And i don't really see how what i said contradicts K2. At the moment there are soooo many theories as to why space-time behaves the way it does and it is such a junior science I find it very hard to believe that K2 can conclusively tell anyone what is and isn't possible at this stage.

this might make interesting reading/watching though...

http://www.prahlad.org/pub/bearden/scalar_wars.htm
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wypYFe3JXdE
and
http://www.aias.us/

obviously i'm no expert... does any of this give you something to get ur teeth into? :)

iWait
25th Aug 2008, 04:28
WTF????? Why didn't I know about this thread sooner????

Visionary Man, just to clarify this for you, The US police action in the Middle East was neither an invasion nor illegal. Congress agreed to enforce the set of rules Saddam Hussein was made to obey at the end of the Gulf War. As a conspiracy "expert" I'm sure you can find the records of Congress agreeing to remove Saddam Hussein from power due to his lack of cooperation with the rules. I don't understand the whole "America's an empire" thing. We have not ever invaded a country. We are not taking any oil out of Iraq, nor have we conquered the Iraqi people. The worst thing America has ever done was force Germany into signing the Treaty of Versailles.

I found a forum you might find more at home at:
http://www.psionguild.org/forums/index.php


@MinusOne

Nuclear batteries would be able to hold a massive amount of electrical energy. The problem with batteries today is that they rely upon a decaying chemical reaction to store a charge, and the waste is just as bad. In my opinion the best way to deal with radioactive waste is to launch them into a planet. In a couple million years they will no longer be radioactive and could be reused.

Tsumaru
25th Aug 2008, 06:21
We have not ever invaded a country.
I'm pretty sure taking a substantial military force into a foreign nation without approval, subverting the government and maintaining a strong military presence while instituting a new political system of your choice surely counts as an invasion.

And while we're at it...

Afghanistan
All the numerous invasions in WWII
Cuba (Bay of Pigs Invasion)
Panama
Cambodia
Grenada



But besides all that... I cannot believe this rubbish thread is still going.

DXeXodus
25th Aug 2008, 06:31
And now, back on topic. Someone.

Tsumaru
25th Aug 2008, 06:50
Third time lucky, DXeXodus?

Visionary Man
25th Aug 2008, 08:01
WTF????? Why didn't I know about this thread sooner????

Visionary Man, just to clarify this for you, The US police action in the Middle East was neither an invasion nor illegal. Congress agreed to enforce the set of rules Saddam Hussein was made to obey at the end of the Gulf War. As a conspiracy "expert" I'm sure you can find the records of Congress agreeing to remove Saddam Hussein from power due to his lack of cooperation with the rules. I don't understand the whole "America's an empire" thing. We have not ever invaded a country. We are not taking any oil out of Iraq, nor have we conquered the Iraqi people. The worst thing America has ever done was force Germany into signing the Treaty of Versailles.

I found a forum you might find more at home at:
http://www.psionguild.org/forums/index.php

.



cheers i'll go to that forum. sorry about the change of subject forum guy... i just felt that the theme of deus ex 1 was really a fictional parody of real life.

and in iraq the new "democracy" is currently trying to pass the legislation to allow foreign oil companies to bag iraqi oil as we speak. the only thing that has been stopping them is the iraqi people.

and america has slaughtered over a maillion iraqis so far... it only seems to be america that is stupid enough to believe that they're not imperialistic. no other country in the world thinks that... the majority of american people just buy into their own bull propaganda too much.

this documentory called "hacking democracy" shows you how much of an illusion US elections are too and how much americans are made to believe in their leaders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGHeuYrASMw

DXeXodus
25th Aug 2008, 08:20
Third time lucky, DXeXodus?

Lol. Yeah. Here's hoping :p

imported_van_HellSing
25th Aug 2008, 08:33
The worst thing America has ever done was force Germany into signing the Treaty of Versailles.

AHAHAHA

Slavery. Genocide of native americans. Using nukes against civilian population (and don't give me the IT WAS TEH JUSTIFIED crap).

iWait
25th Aug 2008, 08:51
hahahhahahhahahhaha

Slavery: More White people have been enslaved than blacks. America wasn't exclusive in the slave trade either.

Native Americans: The Protestants told us they worked for the devil. And it was a genocide of culture, yes, but not a genocide of a people.

Hiroshima & Nagasaki: I believe the fire bombing campaign carried out by both the Americans and Europeans caused more casualties and long-term damage.

The treaty of Versailles...... Let's seeeeeeeee:

1. Germany was forced to pay billions of dollars by todays standards in reparations.

2. Germany was crippled economically/industrially and morally.

3. The influx of foreigners (mostly Jews) gave the German Socialist Party a scapegoat for their troubles.

4. THE HOLOCAUST!!!!11!!11!111!!!1

5. Stupid Ex-V2 program nazi scientists work at nazi and waste billions of dollars to assplode Challenger.

imported_van_HellSing
25th Aug 2008, 09:16
Slavery: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the peak of America's slavery was long after slavery was basically gone from Europe. And it took long after it was abolished to get rid of the racial segregation policies.

Native Americans: The Nazis told Germans that Jews were not people. See the analogy here? "And it was a genocide of culture, yes, but not a genocide of a people." - and what kind of an idiotic excuse is that?...

Hiroshima & Nagasaki: "I believe the fire bombing campaign carried out by both the Americans and Europeans caused more casualties and long-term damage." Maybe. But the nukes are a powerful, powerful symbol: say, in Star Wars, you don't really comprehend just how evil the Empire really is until they obliterate a planet in one shot. And that's what Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, put into Eart's scale.

"The treaty of Versailles...... Let's seeeeeeeee[....]"

So you're arguing America's biggest sin was a treaty that led to results that were mostly unpredictable at the time of its signing. Yeah.

iWait
25th Aug 2008, 09:43
Not a sin, but a failure. I'm not saying that slavery wasn't bad, or that destroying a city full of civilians was justified. I'm just pointing out what I believe to be America's worst decision.

Although I do sometimes wonder what the world would be like if we never broke away from the English empire.

Visionary Man
25th Aug 2008, 09:47
Visionary Man, just to clarify this for you, The US police action in the Middle East was neither an invasion nor illegal. Congress agreed to enforce the set of rules Saddam Hussein was made to obey at the end of the Gulf War. As a conspiracy "expert" I'm sure you can find the records of Congress agreeing to remove Saddam Hussein from power due to his lack of cooperation with the rules.



Sorry... i'll shut up in a sec.

The iraq war is illegal too btw, esp. according to international law and the UN charter.

this irritating cat called pinky outlines things nicely though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Khut8xbXK8

DXeXodus
25th Aug 2008, 11:10
There is no hope for this thread. Three requests about staying on topic is already too much.

Closed.