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Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 14:33
We have new players, these guys will all rage quit playing Nosgoth if we continually pound them into pancakes with our Tyrants, rip them apart with our Reavers and headbutt the floor? with our Sentinels.

If you find yourself in a game where its unbalanced and new players are being turned into mush be nice and switch class!

Last night I was in a game with me and jest on one team and Omegamesh on the other and the rest were new. I asked Omega and jest to not play as their best classes but they were so obsessed with winning they didn't listen.
I switched to scout because honestly I suck as scout, I was keeping a score that was K=D so I wasn't affecting the score much.

the problem is jest and Omega didn't see the big picture, sure you can kill these guys now with no difficulty using your favourite class whilst not really challenging yourself OR you can have a little honour, use it to practice classes you wouldn't want to practice against experienced players, and not drive new players away thus lowering queueing in lobby times.

Honestly dominating new guys is ultimately bad for Nosgoth and its community as these guys may not come back and may discourage them getting their friends to join.

If I can play as tyrant (which I suck so bad at you would think I'm playing with my feet) surely there are a few more good players that can do the same. And remember think before you kill new players!

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 15:38
I as well tried telling Jest to calm down but he doesn't seem to understand or just refuses to. It is a closed beta but that doesn't mean you have to completely stomp new players imo.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 15:53
There's no satisfaction in playing badly. Don't blame the players, blame the lack of matchmaking and/or lack of locked lobbies.

lucinvampire
9th Jan 2014, 15:54
Agreed :D and this is a lovely idea!

I'm not a great player - but last night when was in a fairly newish team I thought hey give a class I never play a try (Sentinel) as it was the second maybe third time I've ever played him (that's not for an entire match either - I'm talking lives), this gave people a chance and gave me chance to learn too...win win in my book :D I wouldn't dream of playing this character with the advanced players because it'd be instant death.

This new wave of players is a good thing :D
I love you all :D and can't wait to play with you all again!

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 16:01
There's no satisfaction in playing badly. Don't blame the players, blame the lack of matchmaking and/or lack of locked lobbies.

There is a difference between playing badly and trying to learn a new class (even though it isn't so advanced I am sure you have a preferred class and could play another when playing with newbies). It is still alpha and not a lot of players after all, pretending you have nothing to do with it is just silly. The game has some sort of matchmaking I believe as it shuffles the players according to level in some fashion, problem is that there are too many new players currently so don't be a dick about it and give them some breathing room.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 16:03
I've personally played enough Tyrand, Reaver, Scout and Hunter to know how they work. I consider Alchemist and Sentinel too cheesy/bad to even consider.

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 17:17
You hate alchs because of AoE spam, but I kill people by hitting them in the back of the head with bombs. In fact, 95% of the team I play support with it, so I run healing mist and still rack up 15k dmg with direct damage. The only splash that's measurable is light bombs, which have an extremely fast fall-off from range. Try to play them different than how you hate and they can be fun.

Sentinels are easily the hardest class to play effectively. For someone who wants a challenge you sure aren't up for taking the first step and trying to be decent with them.

Xaragoth
9th Jan 2014, 17:22
I hate to say this, but when you all were new to it, we tried to do exactly that. We did retarded stuff like "ALL MELEE SCOUT" and we still ripped people to shreds ;/

The problem really comes from the fact that there is no good way to just put a bunch of skilled players into the same lobby - then again a bunch of old players just wait for new content, since we are a bit bored right now, so it's probably also related to a lot of them just not being there to be matched with others.

There is really no good way to deal with it, except Newbie Protection.

RainaAudron
9th Jan 2014, 17:23
Funny, I play only Alchemist and Sentinel for few weeks now, for me its the most satisfying classes. Love the Abduct+Dive Bomb+Puncture combo. I would say Reaver and Hunter are my second favourite with the least time I spent playing Scout and Tyrant.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 17:47
There's no satisfaction in playing badly. Don't blame the players, blame the lack of matchmaking and/or lack of locked lobbies.

Missed the point there then..... I didn't say play badly, I said don't play your most powerful class. for example as hunter I can rock some big scores, as scout I don't do so well only getting kills = to my deaths.

If you want to scare all the new meat off then feel free but don't complain that you have to wait 30 mins in a lobby because there aren't enough players.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 17:49
I'm not even playing much right now lol. Trying today to see the gfx changes and ranking system in action though.

jestdoit
9th Jan 2014, 18:09
The core of the issue is that the beginner queue should really be level 1-10. Beginners being forced to play with capped players, and vice versa isn't fun for anyone.

Which vampire should I use, when I play all three classes? With humans, I've been playing with alchemists and challenging myself with other skills/tactics (scout restricted to charged shots only in the game syst3mzero is referring to, using enrage). It's not like I want matches against 1-10s, I've already been handicapping myself with experimental tactics/builds. There are rounds where I barely break even, but sometimes it works out. The game isn't fun for me unless I'm improving/refining/experimenting with something. Letting people beat on me or reducing my accuracy/timing doesn't accomplish anything.

Xaragoth
9th Jan 2014, 18:15
There is nothing quite as funny as a circle of Scouts, bullying a Tyrant by hitting him in melee. You don't learn anything from it, but it's funny.

DeputyPotato
9th Jan 2014, 18:21
I'm going to agree with Syst3mzero.

I see alot of new guys get disheartened with nosgoth because a small group of older players are stomping them insanely hard with arguably broken tactics. For example 3 sentinels with a reaver is insanely annoying you can get divebomb chained, grab chained add some takeoff spam while getting zoned by a poison nade.

To see that countered by some weak excuses as change to 2+ scouts etc etc take the warbow, some people aren't so good with other classes nor is it something you can expect from new players to comprehend. I think it's rather rude and abusive to play in such a manner just because it's possible doesn't mean you should.

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 18:41
Well Jest to be honest yesterday you had a game when you went 27/3 and your team (human) had 4 players while vamps had 3, yet you kept playing hunter together with the two other hunters. I do not think you are being completely honest. You don't really improve skill by bashing these players like that either.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 18:46
27/3 lol

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 18:52
27/3 lol
Let's just say it was somewhat onesided. Me standing semi-afk and 2 level 1s trying to kill Jest. :D

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 18:54
Don't you think that going 3(2)v1 is enough of a handicap? I really don't understand how you could lose in that scenario if you were 2v1ing, just the hp buffer alone would let at least one of you survive and get a kill by just running in and mashing the auto attack in his face.

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 19:03
Don't you think that going 3(2)v1 is enough of a handicap? I really don't understand how you could lose in that scenario if you were 2v1ing, just the hp buffer alone would let at least one of you survive and get a kill by just running in and mashing the auto attack in his face.
It was (2) vs 4, only that Jest was the one picking the majority of the kills. I wasn't attacking, it was pointless.

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 19:11
I'm going to agree with Syst3mzero.

I see alot of new guys get disheartened with nosgoth because a small group of older players are stomping them insanely hard with arguably broken tactics. For example 3 sentinels with a reaver is insanely annoying you can get divebomb chained, grab chained add some takeoff spam while getting zoned by a poison nade.

To see that countered by some weak excuses as change to 2+ scouts etc etc take the warbow, some people aren't so good with other classes nor is it something you can expect from new players to comprehend. I think it's rather rude and abusive to play in such a manner just because it's possible doesn't mean you should.


First off, you WON'T be good at a class until you practice.
Secondly, You were complaining about the same thing in a game, the issue was 2 out of the 3 players using sentinels don't normally play sents. They WERE trying new things. They weren't trying to be pricks, you just wouldn't try to counter as a team. People tend to forget that the entire concept is based on teamwork.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 19:28
It was (2) vs 4, only that Jest was the one picking the majority of the kills. I wasn't attacking, it was pointless.
Bad matches happen with no ranking or matchmaking, can't be helped. How many T:A matches aren't just blowouts?

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 19:32
Bad matches happen with no ranking or matchmaking, can't be helped. How many T:A matches aren't just blowouts?
A bit, I feel like tribes matches are more even than this though. Might be because I am playing mainly comp and some pugs that I don't notice it so much.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 19:44
The core of the issue is that the beginner queue should really be level 1-10. Beginners being forced to play with capped players, and vice versa isn't fun for anyone.

Which vampire should I use, when I play all three classes? With humans, I've been playing with alchemists and challenging myself with other skills/tactics (scout restricted to charged shots only in the game syst3mzero is referring to, using enrage). It's not like I want matches against 1-10s, I've already been handicapping myself with experimental tactics/builds. There are rounds where I barely break even, but sometimes it works out. The game isn't fun for me unless I'm improving/refining/experimenting with something. Letting people beat on me or reducing my accuracy/timing doesn't accomplish anything.

No I'm not saying let people beat you, I'm just talking about reducing that feeling of helplessness that can come from facing people who can kill you from the opposite side of the map.
I know on rare occasions I have seen you play hunter but not noticed you play alchemist. I fully expect you would still dominate with alchemist but lets face it your best class is scout.

If I want to balance a game I switch between Tyrant and Reaver, Tyrant because I die lots as Tyrant, then Reaver so I can push my kills up.

Contrary to your belief if we can keep some of these players round for a couple of weeks they may actually start to be good competition and fair game and then you will have new challenges, letting people have hope (not beat you) accomplishes a better future game.

I used you and omega as examples not because you are horrible people who deserve to be strung up but because you were on opposite sides, you are both well known and to be honest because it was the game most fresh in my mind with the biggest contrast in player level.

I agree forced separation of level would be a good idea except the fact you have overlooked that many of the high level players aren't playing as much as we are getting bored. if we don't play against under 10's I don't think there are enough left to make up a full game.

Why are people getting bored? easy 30 mins waiting for each game in a lobby before playing for less than the wait time. playing against and with the same people every match.

How do we cure it? new players! how do we keep new players? not pounding them relentlessly into oblivion.

see round and round we go, one thing effects the second thing and then the second thing effects the first.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 19:48
Don't you think that going 3(2)v1 is enough of a handicap? I really don't understand how you could lose in that scenario if you were 2v1ing, just the hp buffer alone would let at least one of you survive and get a kill by just running in and mashing the auto attack in his face.

No idea what this says, who was going 3(2)v1? who was the 1? who were the 3(2)? why were neither team 4? cant find a post this relates to maybe you could quote one?

DeputyPotato
9th Jan 2014, 19:55
Originally Posted by DeputyPotato
I'm going to agree with Syst3mzero.

I see alot of new guys get disheartened with nosgoth because a small group of older players are stomping them insanely hard with arguably broken tactics. For example 3 sentinels with a reaver is insanely annoying you can get divebomb chained, grab chained add some takeoff spam while getting zoned by a poison nade.

To see that countered by some weak excuses as change to 2+ scouts etc etc take the warbow, some people aren't so good with other classes nor is it something you can expect from new players to comprehend. I think it's rather rude and abusive to play in such a manner just because it's possible doesn't mean you should.

First off, you WON'T be good at a class until you practice.
Secondly, You were complaining about the same thing in a game, the issue was 2 out of the 3 players using sentinels don't normally play sents. They WERE trying new things. They weren't trying to be pricks, you just wouldn't try to counter as a team. People tend to forget that the entire concept is based on teamwork.

Addressing your points:

First: Obvious but by being forced to play a class you are not familiar with/ have no items for against certain team match-ups puts you behind badly especially with some new players using such match-ups (with certain items) is quite unfair.
Second: Played several matches was not just that game but more then one seeing the same type of behaviour Kuro1n&
Syst3mzero are basicly saying the same thing this implies a pattern of abusing the games current imbalances.

"you just wouldn't try to counter as a team. People tend to forget that the entire concept is based on teamwork" Excuse me but we were trying it's hard with new people still trying to grasp concepts.

Joining a game with 2 lvl 1 guys in your team is essentially waiting for when the game is over because the other team doesn't stand a chance in hell. Not nice starting a game which you know you are going to lose and wasting precious playtime of actually playing a fun match.

This sort of abuse makes the game a whole lot less fun and I'm actually considering stopping nosgoth for awhile till this gets sorted.

p.s: The people who I see are saying it's not so bad are ones doing it imo.

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 21:18
The basic class abilities are MORE than enough.

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 22:12
We aren't talking about abilities cmstache...

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 22:54
Your argument implies that the beginning set-ups don't work. There are players who never change them because they are just ass effective as anything you can purchase.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 23:18
The basic class abilities are MORE than enough.


We aren't talking about abilities cmstache...


Your argument implies that the beginning set-ups don't work. There are players who never change them because they are just ass effective as anything you can purchase.

What the cheese are you on about cmstache?
you may or may not have a point but who knows because who knows what you are talking bout?

It seems like you are replying to some comment made by another person but I can't find one that looks like this is a reply to.

The reason forums have a quote button is so people can see the comment you are replying to so they can have context to what you say.

DeputyPotato
9th Jan 2014, 23:26
First: Obvious but by being forced to play a class you are not familiar with/ have no items for against certain team match-ups puts you behind badly especially with some new players using such match-ups (with certain items) is quite unfair.


Probably about this, I am not saying the basic items are not good enough I'm saying it can be easier to counter certain match-ups with certain items. He took 1 thing in the entire post and ranted about it instead of looking at the context :')

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 23:37
That, combined with:


I'm going to agree with Syst3mzero.
To see that countered by some weak excuses as change to 2+ scouts etc etc take the warbow, some people aren't so good with other classes nor is it something you can expect from new players to comprehend. I think it's rather rude and abusive to play in such a manner just because it's possible doesn't mean you should.


This thread isn't about bullying new guys, it's about people not wanting to change to another class and complain why they can't beat a set-up (2 out of 3 of which weren't even using their best class).

blincoln
10th Jan 2014, 02:24
There are a number of ways that more experienced players can handicap themselves to even the matches a bit. These are the ones I've found effective but still fun:

- When playing as vampires, agree to only heal by regeneration, no feeding allowed.
- Play as the class you have the least experience with. It was actually Jest who I saw suggest this first in a game.
- The experienced players allow themselves to be killed e.g. 20 times up front.

For the more experienced players, maybe consider deliberately playing as the class which is the weakest versus what the new players have chosen. E.g. if they're playing Scouts, then the experienced players use Sentinels.

As someone who's played the game a fair amount but is still terrible playing as a Scout, it actually gives me a chance to practice with that class without worrying as much about causing my team to lose, and it means more people to play with, so I see it as win/win, but I don't actually care that much about winning other than to unlock items :).

Syst3mzero
10th Jan 2014, 04:18
There are a number of ways that more experienced players can handicap themselves to even the matches a bit. These are the ones I've found effective but still fun:

- When playing as vampires, agree to only heal by regeneration, no feeding allowed.
- Play as the class you have the least experience with. It was actually Jest who I saw suggest this first in a game.
- The experienced players allow themselves to be killed e.g. 20 times up front.

For the more experienced players, maybe consider deliberately playing as the class which is the weakest versus what the new players have chosen. E.g. if they're playing Scouts, then the experienced players use Sentinels.

As someone who's played the game a fair amount but is still terrible playing as a Scout, it actually gives me a chance to practice with that class without worrying as much about causing my team to lose, and it means more people to play with, so I see it as win/win, but I don't actually care that much about winning other than to unlock items :).

you definitely got the idea of the thread, like I said if I use scout/tyrant I will get slaughtered but thats better in a game with fresh meat than when you are facing the older players because it gives you a chance to practice without negativly effecting a team facing a deadly enemy.

I wouldn't say you have to do this to the extent of losing but maybe not allowing yourself to play your comfy class until you are in a negative score (higher deaths than kills) and then once you are in a positive ratio again switch back.

I know we now have some sort of balance but me lvl 20 and 3 lvl 6s vs 4 lvl 18s doesn't seem balanced to me (a game from tonight) still doesn't seem balanced to me.

And another thing.... how the hell is jest still lvl 18?
I have noticed a few more people who surely should be 20 by now but seemed to have stopped at 18.

Syst3mzero
10th Jan 2014, 04:32
That, combined with:




This thread isn't about bullying new guys, it's about people not wanting to change to another class and complain why they can't beat a set-up (2 out of 3 of which weren't even using their best class).

actually you are right it wasn't about bullying, we play games to win and that is what omega and jest were doing so I would call that playing the game, not bullying. however no one complained in game, i did request not to go too hard on them and maybe use a less used class so I came closest to complaining but it wasn't because my team lost.... my team won.

the thread is a plea to experienced players to make the game harder on themselves by limiting their use of their personal favourite class so they can give the new meat chance to get used to the game before they ragequit and never come back. I think a close defeat is better than being beaten horribly as if you get close you know there is hope.

The second part of the message of this thread is... drum roll please.... if you want shorter wait times try to keep new players by letting them have some fun too. more regular players = filling the lobby quicker = more games less wait.

blincoln
10th Jan 2014, 07:55
And another thing.... how the hell is jest still lvl 18?
I have noticed a few more people who surely should be 20 by now but seemed to have stopped at 18.

Yeah, I created a thread about it in the technical forum (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8631). It has to do with the way level-capping is implemented right now, but since we're not accumulating XP for our overall profile (in my case, I still get it for the Scout and Tyrant classes because I haven't played as them as much), it won't advance any further until the cap is removed later in the game's life.

DeputyPotato
10th Jan 2014, 12:30
That's what I've been experiencing I am seeing lots of rage-quitting and people feeling bullied/overwhelmed. I was trying to add on your points Ive seen the most annoyance from new players on class stacking. We should go easy on new players >_>

LOFO1993
10th Jan 2014, 15:00
Come on guys, let's not be ridiculous. If you want you can handicap yourself in so many ways, and if you like the game it's not like it won't be funny anymore. Just push a bit less on the gas pedal and let someone get away some times, or don't take part to an existing fight between a teammate and an enemy.


I played a game with 7 new players yesterday (me and some 3s and 4s vs. almost only 1s i believe), I just didn't chase after people as hard as I do usually and at times gave suggestions to everybody. We still won by a decent margin, but it wasn't completely unfair and other people had a chance to stand above the average, even a level 1 got a very good score.


If all you want is be the pro-est around you should seriously keep in mind this is a closed alpha and that we somehow have responsibilities, towards newer players in particular. I don't think this is the right moment to push it as hard as you can in this game, especially when you're not playing with people you know and know are good at the game or good sports enough to take your full potential.

I'm sure you have other games in the meanwhile where you can give your best. Just let this one settle down some longer, please. Don't risk ruining it for everyone.

Kuro1n
10th Jan 2014, 15:59
Come on guys, let's not be ridiculous. If you want you can handicap yourself in so many ways, and if you like the game it's not like it won't be funny anymore. Just push a bit less on the gas pedal and let someone get away some times, or don't take part to an existing fight between a teammate and an enemy.


I played a game with 7 new players yesterday (me and some 3s and 4s vs. almost only 1s i believe), I just didn't chase after people as hard as I do usually and at times gave suggestions to everybody. We still won by a decent margin, but it wasn't completely unfair and other people had a chance to stand above the average, even a level 1 got a very good score.


If all you want is be the pro-est around you should seriously keep in mind this is a closed alpha and that we somehow have responsibilities, towards newer players in particular. I don't think this is the right moment to push it as hard as you can in this game, especially when you're not playing with people you know and know are good at the game or good sports enough to take your full potential.

I'm sure you have other games in the meanwhile where you can give your best. Just let this one settle down some longer, please. Don't risk ruining it for everyone.
^ putting it very nicely.
Some people just don't seem to get why taking it easy now isn't so bad, the fact that we are in beta and the meta of the game probably will change a tremendous amount before we have a release means that all that tryhard practice might just be wasted either way. It is the nature of early testing after all. :)

Razaiim
10th Jan 2014, 16:41
Yea, yesterday I was the lvl 20 getting (consistently) matched with two to three level ones. In short, I spent a lot of time spectating the person that killed me, and it was disappointing. Typically when I'm on the opposite team then i'll play with some gimmick like regen only healing and try to melee vampires, which is amusing to me (I uppercut a stone-skin tyrant to death as an alchemist, just let that image sink in).

Omhxyz
10th Jan 2014, 21:37
Yeah, there is definitely something wrong with the matchmaking, not talking about getting low levels in my game, more like not getting them in my team. I keep getting teamed up with other 10>level people vs 1x high level guy and 3 low levels, and half the time the 20 lvl guy quits as soon as he sees the lowbies in his team. Even if i play another class or even wonder off the map, just run around do nothing, we still win by a big margin. For the first time i actually got positive win ratio, by winning 8 out of 10 uneven boring matches that in some of them i didnt even do anything.

edit - ps: first post, be nice

Viziroth
11th Jan 2014, 18:16
The biggest problem, I think, it's the utter lack of a tutorial. The number one thing I hear whenever I play a game is "how do I fly?!" it isn't very intuitive, not to mention sentinel's pick up ability seems to only work 1/2 the time because you have to be just the right distance from your target for it to work. I don't hear too many people confused about human mechanics, but no one seems to understand how to play as vampires.

cmstache
11th Jan 2014, 18:51
The problem is that the speed/angle of a dive affects both the altitude you fly after you grab and how early you can activate it. A written tutorial or a FAQ might help, but that's about it at the moment.

Lirra666
12th Jan 2014, 18:23
I'm new, but I'll admit I'm superhuman in tactics, and figuring out game play.. I'm pretty confident in playing nosgoth these days. I've been crushed plenty... by camping alchemists spamming explosives from inside a building basically keeping everyone outs and making anyone who tried to enter, gibblet pudding. However I can play League of Legends in ranked and getting absolutely crsuhed 50 to 7 and not really rage.. so maybe I'm just abnormal O_O

RainaAudron
12th Jan 2014, 18:44
I was thinking today, can´t there be something like a... practice match option? Like you don´t get EXP or gold for winning/losing and it could be purely for learning classes and maps, etc. Maybe it could require minimum of two players or something to minimize the long waiting times.

Worm4real
13th Jan 2014, 03:50
It's not just a matter of match knowledge it's a matter of how easy it easy to pull ahead, break team cohesion, and stop everyone from trying. Teams just mindlessly zerg basically accepting the slaughter since the enemy team totally sets the pace. I really doubt voice communication is going to make it easier to organize or energize a team.

I don't think there is any beta solution either since obviously someone who has 100+ hours (Or how many ever you could have racked up) is the sort who likes beasting newbies just as well as having close matches at equal skill level. Unless you just queue anyone with a ridiculous amount of playtime against other people with ridiculous amounts of playtime. I guess all there is to hope the game has really good match making and that they don't let pre-made groups into the non-ranked queues.

Captain3009
13th Jan 2014, 16:55
Hello everyone, i'm more at ease after reading this thread. I myself am not an expert in terms of gameplay (only level 6), but I love to play Nosgoth.
A question to the more experienced players: how do you set the keyboard? On defauld or do you have a unique combination of keys. Thanks.

RainaAudron
13th Jan 2014, 17:09
I´ve decided to practice other classes yesterday (Scout/Reaver/Tyrant) when playing low level players. Must say it is a good opportunity to try new tactics and skills :) And to newcomers - don´t give up when you get killed a lot, I had the same happen to me, but once you know the maps and the skillset, you will get better :)

cmstache
13th Jan 2014, 17:17
Most of my keys are default. The exception = the shift key. I hate it. I have 2 extra mouse buttons on the side of my mouse so I used those. Vamps =side button = climb. Human click scroll wheel = sprint, side button = melee.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2014, 17:30
a big thing for new players that they lack is the game knowledge, which is much more important than mechanical skill (aiming, landing kidnaps etc). I have a very good grasp on how the game works, but my mechanics are meh.. which is how I still rank in the mid to low end of teams despite being around for many months. So it can be hard to tone down mechanical skill enough to offset the lack of understanding the way the game works, even switching classes/weapons I've noticed has little effect.

Worm4real
14th Jan 2014, 18:43
I think perhaps I was a little negative in that earlier post and apologize. But I think it's just a combination of the game being very knowledge based and having a small player base because of Alpha/Beta. The players with more match knowledge between them are going to win because there's no real good way to organize as a team currently, lack of call outs(It's a fuggin tazer!), voice chat, voice commands, etc.

Perpetual_Void
15th Jan 2014, 09:35
Feel free to stomp me into the ground. I personally hate hand holding. I'll only get better faster if you throw your best at me. So be warned I will be your equal soon :) I don't care about k:d ratios. I'm here to help make a fun game.

lucinvampire
15th Jan 2014, 11:34
I don't care about k:d ratios. I'm here to help make a fun game.

This is an awesome outlook - and one I share - I too play for fun and not for scores :D

Razaiim
15th Jan 2014, 16:10
This is an awesome outlook - and one I share - I too play for fun and not for scores :D

I also just want to play for gits and shiggles, but it's hard when some people just want to curb stomp you into the ground because they're practicing for a non-extant pro-scene, which might never happen ever in this game.

Oroibahazopi
15th Jan 2014, 18:09
I also just want to play for gits and shiggles, but it's hard when some people just want to curb stomp you into the ground because they're practicing for a non-extant pro-scene, which might never happen ever in this game.
Implying people like myself train 8 hours a day. I really don't play that much right now tbh. I just like to brute force the gameplay into it's most optimal state, I enjoy it. I personally believe it's useful for providing feedback to the Devs since, if there is ever a competitive scene, people will rape the gameplay to get on top. Best to find broken stuff now imo.

cmstache
15th Jan 2014, 18:32
Implying people like myself train 8 hours a day. I really don't play that much right now tbh. I just like to brute force the gameplay into it's most optimal state, I enjoy it. I personally believe it's useful for providing feedback to the Devs since, if there is ever a competitive scene, people will rape the gameplay to get on top. Best to find broken stuff now imo.


This is particularly true since the devs have already stated that the ultimate goal is to have Nosgoth in the e-sports scene.

Razaiim
15th Jan 2014, 19:40
eeeew-sports. I see a few problems with designing an e-sports game. The biggest one is that it sacrifices fun gameplay and bottlenecks it into a certain formula. How about step one: make FUN playable enjoyable game. Step two, acquire popularity for being FUN. Step three allow game to enter E-sports as it is when it becomes popular, and when it's ready, don't adjust the game for strictly professional players, allowing it to remain FUN for everyone else. I hate fun games btw ;)

cmstache
15th Jan 2014, 20:30
I agree, I don't think it should be forced. Nor do I think the devs do either. I do think it needs to still be kept in mind when the game is being developed.

Kuro1n
16th Jan 2014, 00:06
Going for an e-sport status is great. If it can actually achieve that it means the game is balanced enough to be played competitively. That said, dota has a great e-sport scene and can still be played casually.

Disclaimer: I am drunk and chrome spellcheck is awesome.

Strike5150
16th Jan 2014, 14:03
Awesome disclaimer, I am gonna keep that one for later!!

I do have to say that while frustrating to new players I still want to have fun at this game too. And if learning the ropes while getting stomped isn't your thing then you may need to wait in the new recruit lobby for some easier games. I'm all for trying to create scenarios where you can learn in peace, but don't be mad at us because we like to play the game and are good at it. And to be fair when facing players that are newer we basically run amok and try to give you a decent chance with our worst classes and some made up handicaps. However its really boring watching you flail around uselessly and pretending I can't hit you, at least when we try to win we are having fun and you are not exactly bored either :).

Victorian_Rat
16th Jan 2014, 16:36
New people are friends. Not Food.

cmstache
16th Jan 2014, 16:44
But, I like playing with my food.


Seriously though, we've been using our "worst classes" for a while now. We can only suck with them for so long. Soon we'll be using melee only with regen healing only.

SADazh
17th Jan 2014, 03:19
I'm not exactly a new player, but I haven't played much since I got in a few months ago. I'm still Rank 2 as of this post.

With that said, I certainly don't want to be babied into thinking I have a chance. That kind of behavior reinforces bad habits that should be squashed out by losing to people who know the game better than you. At the end of the day this is a competitive game, and in competitive games the only way to really get better is to lose, observe what better players did, and to talk about how to improve.

I've been playing a bit more in the last few days and I noticed a trend of people complaining about new players on their team, and while I understand how frustrating this can be, I think the overall solution to this issue is to be as informative and helpful as possible, and to encourage people to ask questions and seek assistance.

edit: Oh and no one queues for the newbie games, I waited in the sub-rank 5 queue for like 20 minutes and not a single person joined.

RainaAudron
17th Jan 2014, 09:54
edit: Oh and no one queues for the newbie games, I waited in the sub-rank 5 queue for like 20 minutes and not a single person joined.

I can confirm, several low level players told me the same thing and were forced to join the regular deathmatch.

DeeArc
17th Jan 2014, 11:49
I'll third that. I tried one New Recruit match for 20 mins. before I gave up and did regular TDMs for the rest of the night. Got a bunch of games in and went from rank 2 to 6. Who knows if I'd have gotten any games at all if I waited.

Razaiim
17th Jan 2014, 16:49
I'm not exactly a new player, but I haven't played much since I got in a few months ago. I'm still Rank 2 as of this post.

With that said, I certainly don't want to be babied into thinking I have a chance. That kind of behavior reinforces bad habits that should be squashed out by losing to people who know the game better than you. At the end of the day this is a competitive game, and in competitive games the only way to really get better is to lose, observe what better players did, and to talk about how to improve.

I've been playing a bit more in the last few days and I noticed a trend of people complaining about new players on their team, and while I understand how frustrating this can be, I think the overall solution to this issue is to be as informative and helpful as possible, and to encourage people to ask questions and seek assistance.

edit: Oh and no one queues for the newbie games, I waited in the sub-rank 5 queue for like 20 minutes and not a single person joined.

The main source of the complaints is that some of us get matched solely with the newest players in a game against a better distribution of levels on the other side. I have literally been in an example where 4 people at current level cap (18) where against me (at old level cap of 20), two level ones and a 9. Another issue with many players is they won't a) ask for advice, b) acknowledge said advice, c) bad mouth you back about "being so pro" and "sucking as bad as the rest of us". It is this mind-set that sets my teeth on edge about the current matchmaker. There are exceptions such as yourself, but there are those that just make it not worth playing the match in some circumstances.

Edit: Here is a thread where the issues are covered in greater detail http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8903

SADazh
17th Jan 2014, 17:15
Funny you should mention that, I just had a game where it was an 18 and a bunch of newbie ranks against a full team of teens. It was fairly close for whatever reason but it's still kind of :confused: but regardless, chances are people who don't want to get better probably won't play the game for very long anyway.

Then again, it is still... whatever phase of development it is. I'm sure that kind of thing will be ironed out eventually, it's not like team balancing is a new revolutionary idea.

Syst3mzero
20th Jan 2014, 04:37
I got shouted at the other day, again it was me and the under 10s (2 3s and a 5) and we won the 1st round vs some >14s, we won that round because I scored 16k 4d and we only won by 1.

round 2 started and I said "I carried the team as vampires but don't expect me to carry it as humans".
I got raged at all round with them saying that that statement was me claiming to be pro... even after me clarifying "no I'm not claiming to be pro, I'm claiming not to be that great with human".
I was also told I shouldn't have claimed to carry the 1st round (well excuse me team, your scores of 4/5, 4/6 and 1/9 obviously carried us through)

As we all know at the mo vamps are a little op. I knew a 1 kill lead meant nothing as we went into our human round, needless to say despite raging at me all 2nd round my stats were the only positive score on our team (i think 5k 4d) and the only score over 2 kills.

As this is not the first time new meat has raged at me (i have been raged at for not shooting vampires while reloading and other stupid things) I totally retract this entire thread, please stomp the s**t out of them till we only have the ones who learn and don't rage for like babies throwing a tantrum.

My new view is anyone who cant beat the score of a guy with disability's that effect his ability to think clearly 40% of the time, reduce his reaction time almost all the time and affect his ability actually press keys on his keyboard even at the best of times really should switch to an easier hobby like sitting at a bus stop shouting out the colours of cars that pass.

LOFO1993
20th Jan 2014, 08:27
I have to say this almost never happened to me. Only once I've seen one new guy being a dick to the only good player of their team (I know his name, as many others here, but not gonna say it), who completely by chance left in that same exact moment cause of a crash, so he couldn't even answer to that. But in a matter of seconds everyone on the field defended him and told the newbie to shut up and think about playing better himself. On the other hand there were many experienced players in the match, and we all well knew the guy under attack, so that may be the reason for it not escalating.

I happened more than once to see someone sucking really bad - not that many new players are really good, but that's OK I guess - and saying the game is ****, those who play it are morons and he's gonna be back to play something else. Not gonna stop them, but don't really care either.


But overall, for my personal experience, there are many, many new players that try their best to learn from the most experienced and to be polite and friendly towards the others. When there's only one player in a team doing really bad, he/she often apologizes to the rest of the team saying he/she is new and is still learning. A lot of people listen to what others say and ask questions about the game. I had matches with lots of newbies that were really happy with the game, even when they/we got stomped.

I don't know who you ended up with and I'm not saying what you wrote is not true, but I have to say it is a very, very rare happening for what I've seen myself. So, let's not generalize, please.

Strike5150
20th Jan 2014, 13:18
"I carried the team as vampires but don't expect me to carry it as humans".

I think you started out that conversation in the wrong way. I think if thats the first thing you said I might have raged too.

RainaAudron
20th Jan 2014, 13:40
Funny you should mention that, I just had a game where it was an 18 and a bunch of newbie ranks against a full team of teens. It was fairly close for whatever reason but it's still kind of :confused: but regardless, chances are people who don't want to get better probably won't play the game for very long anyway.

Lol, I think that 18 was me :D Must say I expected that to be a bad match, but it was indeed close to my surprise. My team was playing pretty fine considering you guys were all 10+ or something, that´s always nice to see.

LOFO - yeah, that was well unnecessary how that guy behaved and he has been reported for that.

Must say I don´t mind newcomers as long as I can see they keep trying (had like 2-3 matches when they would just basically surrender, wasn´t fun, I tell you).

Syst3mzero
20th Jan 2014, 14:42
I think you started out that conversation in the wrong way. I think if thats the first thing you said I might have raged too.

well I dont sugar coat s**t, look at the scores no sane person could deny I carried that team in the 1st round. also I did clarify that I'm no good at humans. It irked me that the were raging at me for claiming to be pro even after I had told them I wasn't good at human. I at no point said "I'm bad at human so I'm obviously so pro".
It also irks me that they could read that statement and reply to rage at me however in the 1st round I kept asking them to stop attacking 1 by 1 and instead work as a team and that was completely ignored.

Strike5150
20th Jan 2014, 15:34
I think your still kinda missing the point here. It doesn't matter how nice you think you were, text on a screen just doesn't carry any body language or emotion. You have to take that into account when you type stuff.

Not saying your a jerk, but they probably did considering your score and the comment that followed it. This is the age old problem that everyone encounters in online communities. You just have to do your best to deliver a message people can't rage about, and start solving the problem on your end. You basically have to be extra polite to make up for lack of body language and the negative feelings people expect to see in a chat. I would also imagine they are a little sore from the stomping they were just handed.

Syst3mzero
20th Jan 2014, 18:50
I got shouted at the other day, again it was me and the under 10s (2 3s and a 5) and we won the 1st round vs some >14s, we won that round because I scored 16k 4d and we only won by 1.

round 2 started and I said "I carried the team as vampires but don't expect me to carry it as humans".
I got raged at all round with them saying that that statement was me claiming to be pro... even after me clarifying "no I'm not claiming to be pro, I'm claiming not to be that great with human".
I was also told I shouldn't have claimed to carry the 1st round (well excuse me team, your scores of 4/5, 4/6 and 1/9 obviously carried us through)

As we all know at the mo vamps are a little op. I knew a 1 kill lead meant nothing as we went into our human round, needless to say despite raging at me all 2nd round my stats were the only positive score on our team (i think 5k 4d) and the only score over 2 kills.

As this is not the first time new meat has raged at me (i have been raged at for not shooting vampires while reloading and other stupid things) I totally retract this entire thread, please stomp the s**t out of them till we only have the ones who learn and don't rage for like babies throwing a tantrum.

My new view is anyone who cant beat the score of a guy with disability's that effect his ability to think clearly 40% of the time, reduce his reaction time almost all the time and affect his ability actually press keys on his keyboard even at the best of times really should switch to an easier hobby like sitting at a bus stop shouting out the colours of cars that pass.


well I dont sugar coat s**t, look at the scores no sane person could deny I carried that team in the 1st round. also I did clarify that I'm no good at humans. It irked me that the were raging at me for claiming to be pro even after I had told them I wasn't good at human. I at no point said "I'm bad at human so I'm obviously so pro".
It also irks me that they could read that statement and reply to rage at me however in the 1st round I kept asking them to stop attacking 1 by 1 and instead work as a team and that was completely ignored.


I think your still kinda missing the point here. It doesn't matter how nice you think you were, text on a screen just doesn't carry any body language or emotion. You have to take that into account when you type stuff.

Not saying your a jerk, but they probably did considering your score and the comment that followed it. This is the age old problem that everyone encounters in online communities. You just have to do your best to deliver a message people can't rage about, and start solving the problem on your end. You basically have to be extra polite to make up for lack of body language and the negative feelings people expect to see in a chat. I would also imagine they are a little sore from the stomping they were just handed.

You missed the point, they continued to rage AFTER I clarified what I was saying.

cmstache
20th Jan 2014, 21:44
System, you missed the point. There's something called a first impression. Combine that with the fact that 90% of what you say comes from timing, tone (which you can't hear), and body language(which you also can't see). You were speaking to them defensively which put them in a defensive position. You don't like being told "you're wrong" either... as you just demonstrated. People skills can go a long way. To expect them to understand is asking far too much. Just ignore them and move on. If you're lucky you can give them a sound trouncing next game.

Slanosaurus
20th Jan 2014, 21:57
I've noticed it is completely impossible to play a game with anyone who is a newbie in the newbie pvp games (myself being one). I so far have been on the losing side, every, single, time. It's a big problem and bloody frustrating seeing as the LoK games are my favourite series of all time. I'm not great obviously as I haven't had the time to develop the necessary skills, but I'm not abysmal either. So it just takes the fun out of it when you don't have a chance against folk who already have several load-outs.

DeputyPotato
20th Jan 2014, 22:44
Doing the social thing is hard though :mad2: , but I get where Syst3mzero is coming from it's so nice to get chewed out whilst only giving some advice. Kids these days :')

Razaiim
21st Jan 2014, 03:05
Yea Potato, some dude ran his mouth off when you crashed some days ago, a couple of us older players handled it and he shut up every game since.

Strike5150
21st Jan 2014, 10:37
I know exactly how you feel, don't get discouraged they are fixing the matchmaking in the next patch I believe. This will be the second attempt so hopefully it helps :).

I do feel I should tell you that the standard loadouts are all more than enough to compete with different loadouts. With the exception of a handful abilities none of them are straight up upgrades. I'm lookin at you poison bola!

Slanosaurus
21st Jan 2014, 16:47
I know exactly how you feel, don't get discouraged they are fixing the matchmaking in the next patch I believe. This will be the second attempt so hopefully it helps :).

I do feel I should tell you that the standard loadouts are all more than enough to compete with different loadouts. With the exception of a handful abilities none of them are straight up upgrades. I'm lookin at you poison bola!

Yeah I realise the loadouts don't exactly give an advantage. It's just glaringly obvious that the people who AREN'T newbs (like me!) are going to stomp all over level 1-5s (again like me lol) It's mostly having the chance to master the controls and the mechanics of the game that I'm lacking because I die so quickly :D

Squids
21st Jan 2014, 17:29
Hello everyone! I'm one of these new players you guys are talking about (In game name: Vis) seeing as I just started playing the game yesterday, however I've actually had quite a bit of fun. Personally I enjoy playing against the best and getting "curb stomped" because I feel like I wont learn if I'm not being punished, although maybe I'm just a masochist.

That being said yesterday I sat around in the "recuit deathmatch" for roughly a half hour without being able to get a single game off the ground most we had in the lobby was 6/8. That being the case I joined the regular ques and I got destroyed. A few of the level 20s there were pretty helpful (Livin, and Jest (you didn't help me directly but I watched you play and totally copied your Reaver loadout)) and it really wasn't long until I was correcting my mistakes and playing a lot better. I went from going 1-6, to my current best game 10-2 as Vampires, and 7-6 as Hunters and this was only after maybe 10 or so games (I think I Jest was actually on my team in that 7-6 game because he did send me an invite to join the steam group afterwards :P).

In conclusion I don't mind if the "Good Players" play their best because I feel like I'm learning as I'm playing. What I personally would find more helpful would be more communication from the level 20s in team chat such as tips, tricks, strategy, guidance, what classes they like, what loadouts they like etc.

PS: I'm currently rank 4, maybe 5.