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View Full Version : VALEHOLM Regarding Camping



Monowar
9th Jan 2014, 05:24
Let me start by saying that the game balance blew my mind, especially considering its still in Alpha. The humans survival based gameplay centered around moving between convers while Kain's children stalk them from the rooftops and alleyways really reinforce the environment of a Nosgoth in which the role of hunter and hunted are constantly in a flux.

That being said I have noticed that some maps more than others ( I am looking at YOU Vanholm) favor a "camping" based playthrough for humans.

While using chokepoints and shelter against vampire attacks fits in perfectly with the theme of the game the developers are trying to envoke, I can't help but think whether its being overdone in some maps more than others.

Anyone has any thoughts on the matter?

cmstache
9th Jan 2014, 12:40
Usually, the vampires have legitimate tactics to overcome that strategy though, the problem is that it takes some coordination/adjustment on the vampires side. For example, as a Tyrant, jump/shockwave to an iron skin with some ranged smoke/gas support is much better for leading an assault in the open, where in an enclosed/camping situation the charge will be more effective. In the open charge will get shot down before any real progress is made whereas in a building you can close the gap easier, charge around a corner, and get out while causing some distraction. It all comes down to efficiency of ability use.

Honestly, until the voice communication is standard, these kinds of problems will stay.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 14:59
Choking Haze, reaver ability that can be bought, poison AOE. clears out camps quite well but not so much it completely breaks camping as that would be bad.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 15:51
Choking haze is unfortunately 100% required as an equipment purchase because of matches like these.

It's the only piece of equipment in the game that's really like that on the other hand, but I strongly encourage people to make it their first purchase.

Tube_Reaver
9th Jan 2014, 16:13
Choking haze is unfortunately 100% required as an equipment purchase because of matches like these.

It's the only piece of equipment in the game that's really like that on the other hand, but I strongly encourage people to make it their first purchase.

I would say the smoke bomb is decent too, if it didn't cover up your own vision as well as well as your teams' vision, if you don't make it connect, which leads to it being more against you than anything useful.

Unlike say the Alchemist's flashbang which only effects the vampire team. I don't see my human teammates screaming "ahhhh you blinded me!" :D

Monowar
9th Jan 2014, 17:43
Is it fair to have an ability as a required purchase? Shouldn't purchased abilities reflect the players' own distinct playstyles rather than piegon holing them into a single all-purpose fold?

I wonder if moving the particular health-shrine from inside that building to a slightly less fortified zone would make a difference? That way even Raz's can contribute to the counter-camping rather than flying around aimlessly.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 17:46
It's not all purpose. If you don't want to change your class to beat a strategy then have fun losing.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 17:54
smoke doesn't blind vampires.... who told you it did?

smoke makes it easier to see in my opinion as the humans get huge yellow outlines that make them super easy to target!

the only disadvantage to smoke is if you don't know the layout inside a building but that should be remedied after 1 play through on each map.

Psyonix_Corey
9th Jan 2014, 18:00
Is it fair to have an ability as a required purchase? Shouldn't purchased abilities reflect the players' own distinct playstyles rather than piegon holing them into a single all-purpose fold?

I wonder if moving the particular health-shrine from inside that building to a slightly less fortified zone would make a difference? That way even Raz's can contribute to the counter-camping rather than flying around aimlessly.

No, this isn't intended. If Choking Haze continues to be a prerequisite for success we either need to look at level design changes, or more wide spread changes to adjust the balance of camping

Tube_Reaver
9th Jan 2014, 18:08
No, this isn't intended. If Choking Haze continues to be a prerequisite for success we either need to look at level design changes, or more wide spread changes to adjust the balance of camping

If I may make a few small suggestions.

In regards to level design changes, I would suggest using Sommerdamm as a point of reference of good balance. It is by far the most balanced map to play on, as either side.

Also use Freeport as a point of reference of what not to do, because frankly it's design favours the human team by far. The whole upper half of the level (near the docks) is far too open, so it makes it hard for vampires to get close without taking a few shots.
Compare it to Sommerdamm, which is clustered, but makes it more enjoyable for both teams.

All of this is my opinion of course.


As a side suggestion; can you reduce the "shroud" of the reaver's Shadow Bomb for the vampire team? Honestly if the humans aren't in it to get blinded, it just blocks vision for both teams, so it feels like a double edged sword if you have someone miss a throw.

Xaragoth
9th Jan 2014, 18:09
No, this isn't intended. If Choking Haze continues to be a prerequisite for success we either need to look at level design changes, or more wide spread changes to adjust the balance of camping

There's a few spots we found early in the Alpha that we reported to be quite the killing fields - hell, Mark was in one game with us, testing for some Reaver animation bugs and we all made a point out of it with 7 people to shove his character to such spots. While you moved some Health Stations, nothing changed about the layout of those spots :) People basically have taken to using low dives and Choking Haze to try and get a grip on it and that hasn't changed much, sadly. Same with some invisible walls that new players still crash into.


Regarding All other maps/Sommerdamm: Those are two sides of the same extremes. Sommerdamm has a lot of vampire-favored approaches, while most of the other maps have very open lines of sight that favor humans. Freeport is the most extreme here, as there are a few spots from which you can see every rooftop and alley that you can be approached from. Sentinels have to fly low, or they get instagibbed.

Tube_Reaver
9th Jan 2014, 18:17
Regarding All other maps/Sommerdamm: Those are two sides of the same extremes. Sommerdamm has a lot of vampire-favored approaches, while most of the other maps have very open lines of sight that favor humans. Freeport is the most extreme here, as there are a few spots from which you can see every rooftop and alley that you can be approached from. Sentinels have to fly low, or they get instagibbed.

I disagree, I find it to be balanced for both teams. There's enough cover and corners, to make it viable for both teams. It actually encourages the gameplay of moving from healing station to healing station rather than holding a spot and camping it.

Syst3mzero
9th Jan 2014, 18:31
No, this isn't intended. If Choking Haze continues to be a prerequisite for success we either need to look at level design changes, or more wide spread changes to adjust the balance of camping

I think a 4th vampire class that has stealth or a long range special like scorpion from mortal kombat that pulls a human out without having to go in or something like that would be better as it would give you 2 classes that can effectively deal with a camp. tyrant can be used on many camps as charge and jump do a great job just as long as you are smart enough to time it well so you get an assist and don't take all the damage.

I also think a modified charge where the tyrant grabs the 1st human it collides with and carries them to the end of the charge but only gives a short stun and minor knockback and maybe 50 dmg to any other humans he hits would be great. that way he is near a human at the end of the charge and it could really break up camps.

Another option is a disease skill for a new class of vampire, maybe like spitting poison that is infectious at a specific player and that player has an infectious AOE around them and causes a reduction in movement and attack speed for 6 seconds, anyone that gets infected form the original target has the same infection but to a lesser extent but only the original target can infect other players.
This could make close camps break up quite well.

Psyonix_Corey
9th Jan 2014, 18:54
I think a 4th vampire class that has stealth or a long range special like scorpion from mortal kombat that pulls a human out without having to go in or something like that would be better as it would give you 2 classes that can effectively deal with a camp. tyrant can be used on many camps as charge and jump do a great job just as long as you are smart enough to time it well so you get an assist and don't take all the damage.

I also think a modified charge where the tyrant grabs the 1st human it collides with and carries them to the end of the charge but only gives a short stun and minor knockback and maybe 50 dmg to any other humans he hits would be great. that way he is near a human at the end of the charge and it could really break up camps.

Another option is a disease skill for a new class of vampire, maybe like spitting poison that is infectious at a specific player and that player has an infectious AOE around them and causes a reduction in movement and attack speed for 6 seconds, anyone that gets infected form the original target has the same infection but to a lesser extent but only the original target can infect other players.
This could make close camps break up quite well.

A lot of your ideas are in the pipeline already in one way or another, you will be happy to hear I'm sure

Xaragoth
10th Jan 2014, 04:44
A lot of your ideas are in the pipeline already in one way or another, you will be happy to hear I'm sure

Still waiting for that Meat Club for the Tyrant to use a corpse as a kind of aoe weapon that you can then snack on.

Syst3mzero
10th Jan 2014, 04:59
A lot of your ideas are in the pipeline already in one way or another, you will be happy to hear I'm sure

I'm hoping its the disease skill , slow down would be a nice change to stuns and not only that but I dont think I ever saw a moba 3rd person tackle skills that could infect team mates by proximity (although i haven't played all games so one may have)

I think the modified charge would be good to purchase. and i like the idea of a stealth vampire or maybe one that can pull.

Syst3mzero
10th Jan 2014, 04:59
Still waiting for that Meat Club for the Tyrant to use a corpse as a kind of aoe weapon that you can then snack on.

using it as a club would make it nice and tender.... mmmmm yummy.