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Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 07:05
Now I understand how the Supreme Court came to their viewpoint about pornography (you can't really define it, but you know when you see it when it's obscene), as it's the same with discussing a game's style -- you can't really define it for others, but you know what you like and don't like to see.

Now DX is a little long on the tooth in style these days as the production values of games have skyrocketed in 8 years. But apart from the arcaneness of the game, it does have a unique look. A trademark style that keeps coming back even in mods (and when mods deviate, folks get turned off -- case in point how the HDTP Project added style that wasn't in the game itself).

One of my fears (oh, I have many fears about DX3!!), is that the style transition won't be like going from the games Morrowind to Oblivion. That same look remained, despite Oblivion was a major step up in the graphics department. DX:IW showed what going too far in the future could due to a game's universe, as well as in the Star Trek series from TV to movies, especially their uniforms.

Case in point is the debate over JC's look (if JC is the protagonist in DX3 again -- I wish -- but how things are today with "newness" he's probably not in it as he's some "old man" now [have to hit that 15 to 20 year-old male gamer market demographics -- didn't work with DX:IW now did it? You know punk/gansterized Alex? Complete with holding a sidearm like one? And at "school"?]). Some don't like what is called the "Matrix style" of his uniform (and even Specter says he's tired of that stereotype), but could you really see JC, in say, the outfit that the pointman in F.E.A.R./Project Origin wears (yeah, I have no other reference, so :rasp:)? Does the pointman in F.E.A.R. look like he's seriously in "business"? Or a weekend paintballer who likes to MX (motorcross) to get to the action?

JC looks like "business". He looks serious. He looks like he's in control in a world that's chaotic. His trenchcoat is like a lab coat for a doctor, it's the symbol of his office, and his prestige/experience. Make JC (or any new protagonist) into a generic pointman with the US military Iraq knockoff (or off the shelf Wal-Mart paintball) gear, and he no longer has that professional look. He becomes yet another FPS dated symbol.

I'd trade those goggles for shades anyday, too (even construction workers do the same thing -- and yes, they look alot like JC's shades!).

And when I look at the new Batman movie, do I see Batman? No. I see a guy who looks a lot like JC with a pointy eared mask. The cape is but that trenchcoat, and boy does his armor look good!

Then let's talk about the HUD/GUI. Yeah, it's so dated now for those who prefer eye candy, but did you really look at it beyond just style? Look at the GUI for Windows XP (which most of us still use, despite Vista), remove the fancier theme, and what do you see? You see a framework that is pretty streamlined and g-r-a-y (gray is good!!). Same goes with the DX HUD/GUI. It connects to computing, where it's not just pretty pictures (and you *nix users aren't going to enjoy the pictures anyway!). I'm playing some MMOs, and despite I can't stand their linear nature and their grinds, their interface reminds me so much of the days when computer games was about content, not just fps killing eye candy. I stick around for that nostaglia, even if I want to tell those devs to GET A LIFE, YOUR CONTENT STINKS!. :lol:

I crave "the old" today in games. Search and search and search for games that has brain food and the length to enjoy using the brain, not HDR/widescreen graphics/and 4GB to just to see them. Pretty pictures don't make up for solid gameplay, never did and never will. I'd trade Vista style for DX style any day of the week (and I refuse to get Vista due to it too -- don't hijack my computer with bells and whistles to tell me what to do. I own the machine, the machine does what I want it to do. That means if I want to kill all the fancy junk, I can and will. Performance/content/user control are the keys. 2GB/4GB/8GB Killerz machine later, it doesn't matter, I kill switch fluff that gets in the way).

Then how about our favorites in DX? You know the Hell's Kitchen level? The music, the dirty grimey underbelly of NYC? The desolute nature of that level (and it's good that in that day of computing they couldn't stuff the streets full of everything else due to computing processing limits, as it no longer would've felt empty and desolute)? Going into the 'Ton hotel it feels and looks like a dive it was. The Free Clinic, even that supposely sterile environment, has a look of hopelessness (you're going to die here! Need proof? Just look at the bodies on the tables even!).

One of my favorite levels in the game was the smallest, Vandenberg Gas. It showed the cyberpunk world at it's finest -- the reminder of how bad the economy was (and yes, modders, we need to fix the gas prices, as that's how much gas costs now!); the gas station was the symbol of Big Corporate Oil; the bridge to nowhere; the complete isolation (even with the few destitutes below); and that dusk sky that just bleeds your hope away.

You FEEL the level. The style was the mechanism to do it.

What will DX3 bring to us that will remind us of classic cyberpunk (not post-cyberpunk, classic cyberpunk)? Will we get continuity from the old with the new? Will we FEEL the levels? Will we be able to listen to good cheesy electronically made music as we kill hours of our lives, too? Will we see JC (or whatever new protagonist) as a professional who knows his business (which means he's not in school!) and how to use firearms, not some Emoed metrosexual punk/gangster Vanilla Ice?

In short, will DX3 have that DX style????

iWait
26th Jul 2008, 08:05
Now I understand how the Supreme Court came to their viewpoint about pornography (you can't really define it, but you know when you see it when it's obscene), as it's the same with discussing a game's style -- you can't really define it for others, but you know what you like and don't like to see.


Were you referring to when Banned lolicon for awhile until the Supreme Court said it doesn't count as CP since it's drawn? Or something else?


Though I agree the trench-coat+sunglasses both look cool and make sense, the trench-coat has been getting a lot of bad rep: Columbine, the Matrix, public masturbators, streakers, "survivalists" who fail at mass murder.....

So maybe instead of a trench-coat, JC can wear a plain white T-Shirt with blue-jeans. They could be augmented so that on command they can turn black, which would make JC look like a high-school emo kid, but it wouldn't matter because while stealthing nobody would see him.

Clucky
26th Jul 2008, 08:12
I do hope that the franchise returns to its roots, rather than continuing the utterly unsubtle approach to the cyberpunk genre that was displayed in IW. Having replayed both games recently, I've found that one of the major flaws of IW was that it focused too much on the "punk" and less on the "cyber."

As you mentioned, to target the younger demographic, Alex seemed to be some sort of street gangster, a punk through and through, and unfortunately this did not fit with the style of Deus Ex at all. In fact, I found that because the game deviated so much from the original's atmosphere, the games felt entirely seperate and irreconcilable. The universe became all too different so suddenly. Deus Ex had the balance correct and focused enormously on technology, as well as the "punk."

However, can Deus Ex even be classifed as a cyberpunk game? There was very little attitude coming from the homeboys and JC got on with his j-o-b in style, man. Eidos need to return the dark, destitute society that was present in DX, and approach cyberpunk in a more subtle, sensible way, if they are even going to add in a shred of punk at all. I don't think DX is even cyberpunk in my honest opinion. IW is, undoubtedly so, but not DX.

We should definitely see the trademark fashion of trenchcoats in DX3. I typically associate it with DX first, and other media such as the matrix later. That trenchcoat is just fitting with JC's character and the nature of the world at that time. Please keep them. :)

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 08:21
I think they went post-cyberpunk (or one of it's other off shoots) in DX:IW. So technically it could be called cyberpunk, but isn't the classic cyberpunk that folks associate with the name. The Sci-Fi part took over, thus, the Star Trekish look.

I love Star Trek, but in it's own universe. DX has it's own style and universe.

Just wished Eidos repackaged DX. Newer models and higher res textures. Maybe they'll be nice and give original fans a Christmas present of just that (oh, I can wish!). All that's really is needed is updated animations. Everything else can be modded to look more "today".

Clucky
26th Jul 2008, 08:27
I think they went post-cyberpunk (or one of it's other off shoots) in DX:IW. So technically it could be called cyberpunk, but isn't the classic cyberpunk that folks associate with the name. The Sci-Fi part took over, thus, the Star Trekish look.

I love Star Trek, but in it's own universe. DX has it's own style and universe.

Just wished Eidos repackaged DX. Newer models and higher res textures. Maybe they'll be nice and give original fans a Christmas present of just that (oh, I can wish!). All that's really is needed is updated animations. Everything else can be modded to look more "today".

I agree, but I never, ever want to go that far into the future again if it all looks so tacky. As I said more cyber, less punk. :p

Absentia
26th Jul 2008, 09:17
Hm. I think it's debatable just how 'cyberpunk' Deus Ex actually is. I'm using Neuromancer here as my example of what cyberpunk is, considering that it is essentially regarded as the cyberpunk "bible".

Deus Ex seems a lot more darker, and theres a lot more focus on the homeless and sick (obviously because of the Gray Death) - the gritty criminal underworld present in Neuromancer consisted of HACKERS and ASSASSINS, most of which found themselves alone and doing various odd-jobs to get by.
DX characters consist of everyday people who are suffering in the conditions, but there isn't so much the cyberpunk element in that technology has not taken over people enough that computer hackers and the like are everywhere. the only real hacker you get to meet is Alex Jacobson, and he works for a corporate face (no 'punk' element there)
Neuromancer saw Case, a lone hacker, do jobs for shady crime figures that he didn't like himself, just to earn a good living. He had a lazy, carefree attitude, a drug addiction, and preferred to simply drift around and help himself than to try and make any effort to 'save the world' or anything. THAT attitude is one of key essenses of cyberpunk. "Every man for himself". "The world is too screwed up as it is, so lets just try and make the most of it and salvage the pleasures we have".
I would say DX borrows a lot of themes from cyberpunk (a particular mention that i just remembered is the Lucky Money club in Hong Kong) but I think in terms of pinpointing its true genre, I wouldn't be so sure. Dystopic?
Let's just say Near-Future.
Anyway, "pinpointing" DX's genre seems a little pointless and disrespectful.
It's just awesome.

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 09:41
The point is the game has to be classified to be placed somewhere (game sites have it listed as Sci-Fi action even now, when cyberpunk is more than Star Trek/Star Wars).

There's like 12 different sub-genres of Cyberpunk now. So whatever existed as the bible in the 80s, has many denominations that has their scripture today. It means that the DX universe can borrow from all, and still be considered cyberpunk.

Now what we like is the cyberpunk OF DX, yet as you point out, even DX doesn't follow the classic cyberpunk genre to the letter (and that's understandable, as this is a videogame, which is a different medium than literature. Any book will have to be adapted to a new medium, just like from books to films).

What you said about the protagonist was somehow cut from the game, but in the movie they were planning to show a much more troubled JC (he carries many demons inside). DX also left the user to be a Zyme freak, if you wanted to play that way (even a dealer to buy it from).

Also be reminded this game is influenced by nanoites/biomechanical modding. It had to have a more biomechanical storyline, otherwise it wouldn't have fit. The Gray Death fit in, as it all involved bio-engineering. The hacking side was in it, as machines will take programming. So everything dovetailed together.

It's a bio-mech-programming dark world in keeping with the cyberpunk tradition.

Blade_hunter
28th Jul 2008, 23:52
For me the DX style is a bit difficult to explain with my English words, but I will try to say something about this.

About the style itself

I think DX is close to Ghost in the shell by the cyberpunk universe the fact we've got implants, Matrix by JC style, by the anarchism of many countries, by the corporatism, by the fact the world is more computerized, more "virtual"...
In DX we aren't especially a cyborg, but we are a bit close to them.

I can't explain it without mentioning some references ...

I'm sorry to don't give some details, but it difficult to me to speak about this