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Blade_hunter
24th Jul 2008, 10:14
For secondary fire modes I have a question for everyone that have an interest on it.

With uni ammo this kind of feature work as some weapons eats a different quantity of ammo and the scondary fire mode if it fires a cartridge can eat more, or the same amount of ammo of the primary fire, here nothing new
But I don't want Uni ammo ...

For multiple ammo system we can use the same tip as some oldschool games

- Multifunctional cartridges (the primary fire use the ammo in a proper form, and the scondary firemode is an other use of the cartridge)

Some examples:
The Unreal Flak cannon
Primary fire is a sort of shotgun by exploding the cartridge in the gun
Secondary fire is a sort of fragmentation shell that explode on impact
The unreal rocket launcher
Primary fire is a rocket
Secondary fire is a timed grenade

-Converter gun (The primary fire use ammo in a simple form and the secondary fire mode is a special fire mode that eats a lot of ammo, for a different and most of times more powerful fire mod)

Some examples:
The blood flare gun
Primary fire is a standard flare
Secondary fire is a big burning ball that explode on impact and throw some random little flares it eat 6 cartridges when fire
The SOF chaingun
Primary fire use standard bullets
Secondary fire mode launches a phosphorous grenade and eats 10 bullets (the chain have 40 bullets)
The Unreal 2 assault rifle
Primary fire bullets
Secondary fire launches a lot of burning bullets, that fly a bit slow

For energy - chemical weapons the way is more easy because the enregy can be converted in most forms and keep the thing logical
and can use the same way as the previous examples

An other way is the gun have 2 or more cannons, and sometimes we van find guns with this kind of fire mode
Primary fire is cannon A secondary fire is cannon B
Cannon A use a kind of ammo
Cannon B use an other kind of ammo


Assault rifles with underbarrel grenade launchers
primary fire cannon A (bullets)
Secondary fire cannon B (grenades)

This gun is a standard gun from real life and many games have it since Half life and it's MP5 submachine gun

The RF 2 shotgun
Primary fire cannon A (normal shells)
Secondary fire cannon B (burning shells)

This gun have the same fire modes as unreal 2's shotgun, but with a different mean to work.

Loaders and multiple cannon shot at once

For loaders we have
The UT2k3 Rocket launcher
Primary fire launches single rockets
Secondary fire is the multiple loading mode

For multiple cannon shot at once we have
The blood Double barelled sawed off shotgun
Primary fire use a single shell
Secondary fire ignites the two cannons at once

In half life we have a similar thing but with a single cannon



With many games the secondary fire mode becomes an aim trigger like using a scope or a laser painter


But for ammo I want to ask if we must stay realistic as possible or open the game with some sci fi technology, like some old school games

GruntOwner
24th Jul 2008, 12:25
I for one am completely against secondary fire. Secondary ammo types are a must, but the idea of pressing a different button to use an underbarrel GL is too arcady. "We're police after all" springs to mind, so it stands to reason that your gear is police freindly. I want realitic, yet also controlled. You're doing spec ops after all, not frontline firefights. The isea of iron sights as a secondary fire is ok, but I always prefered using right click as an action, and the only reason games use secondary fire as a zoom is because it's in a convinient place: right click. Having to press "f" to get iron sights isn't very convinient, and I wouldn't do it in most cases. The secondary fire feeding from the normal ammo seems to be a quake theme, which really should say it all when inserting such an idea in to DX.

Cr4sh
24th Jul 2008, 12:49
I don't need a secondary firemod either. Most weapons existant in the present do not have some kind of secondary firemod. I would very much look forward to having no crosshair and to aim with rightclick through a scope or ironsights like in COD4 realistic mode. And I very much would appreciate if sniping would be realistic. I know no game in which you had to aim higher the farther the target is away or - besides the one shot in COD4 - where you need to mind the dircetion of wind.

Also good for a laugh is, that in most shooters you always have only full magazines with you, not the ones you already used and are half-empty. If you use a system that does use your half-empty magazines, you should also be able to put ammunition from one magazine to another by hand, but this will take some time, so it's finally a decision against the flow of the game...

And funny is i.e. in Counterstrike that the guys pull the slide (sorry, I don't know whether this is the right constellation of words in English) even if the last magazine wasn't empty and therefor there still has to be a bullet in the weapon.

But if something like the last two points is not minded in DX3, it's also fine with me.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 12:52
With uni ammo

Hell no.

Want all caliber ammo. Be it 5.52mm to 7.62mm rounds (the EU can opt for their type).

There's a tactical feel of having multiple types of ammo. Knowing each weapon needs it's own share. It also makes rationing ammo paramount, and when out, forces a player to use a secondary weapon, to remind them, "Hey, you're stuck with this pea shooter now because you thought being Rambo was kewl".

Since like what addressed above, JC et al would be in civil defense, their weapons would not be like the military. Sidearms and light firearms would be more in keeping with their role (10mm/shotguns/AR-15 semi-burst [no auto]). Extra weapons found while on missions is another thing, but issued weapons would be civil stock -- and those won't have a need for a grenade launcher (unless it's to fire tear gas canisters -- shotguns can do that anyway).

So stock = civil; random weapon = anything goes (that's more realistic), but if civilians are injured with that random weapon there's consequences of playing out of role (would be interesting if there's a Fort Leavenworth for federalized cops in the future who become mass killers).

GruntOwner
24th Jul 2008, 14:48
The Delta Force series also demanded that you compensate for wind and gravity.

Scadvid, congratulations of making the game forcing the player into something a good thing. So true. I'm not sure about why the game would even bother throwing military grade stuff at you. The thing I loved about DX was that the story was the scale. It didn't throw you into a huge warzone because of the specs, but it was still epic because of the story. Games which want to seem huge and important by using huge maps and stuff always fail. Personally, if I found myself in the middle of a war in Deus Ex, then my first thought would be either "I've screwed up" or "When did I start playing frontlines?". Even the MJ12-esqu forces would use small, reliable weapons like PDWs, never any larger than an F2000 or WA2000.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 15:09
The Delta Force series also demanded that you compensate for wind and gravity.

Scadvid, congratulations of making the game forcing the player into something a good thing. So true. I'm not sure about why the game would even bother throwing military grade stuff at you. The thing I loved about DX was that the story was the scale. It didn't throw you into a huge warzone because of the specs, but it was still epic because of the story. Games which want to seem huge and important by using huge maps and stuff always fail. Personally, if I found myself in the middle of a war in Deus Ex, then my first thought would be either "I've screwed up" or "When did I start playing frontlines?". Even the MJ12-esqu forces would use small, reliable weapons like PDWs, never any larger than an F2000 or WA2000.

Think the DX devs didn't even plan it that way. Why would a cop would need a GEP gun, when his main weapons would be a 10mm/baton/shotgun/tear gas? Think they just threw it in for the FPS value.

My dad was a career cop (after he retired from the military -- Korean and Vietnam vet), and the most firepower he carried to even a riot was a police pump 10gauge (which either had standard shot, or those nasty CS gas shells -- one broke open in our car, and let's say, I'll always will remember it!!).

But as a former WM myself, weapons need their own specific ammo. Not only for realism, but to teach those engaged to limit their firepower, like in real life. "Fire for effect" isn't the status quo. Like playing AA because they stress ROE and seriously limit ammo. Makes remembering policing brass nostalgic (which, thankfully, Marines no longer do that chore because it can be deadly, as found out in Iraq).

Played sniper in DX, and always finished the game with about 86 to 93 7.62mm rounds to spare -- "one shot, one kill".

Blade_hunter
24th Jul 2008, 15:41
I never say I want uni ammo, but the only thing I wanted to say with is with Uni ammo you can use the same ammo to make completely different fire modes with the same ammo even if never want uni ammo again, I added in my post the fact that I confirm the fact I don't want uni ammo.


It's not because I mention uni ammo, that would say I want it.
I don't want UNIVERSAL AMMO

I only wanted to mention it, not say I want this kind of thing in the game, if you see all posts with weapons I've proposed, I never proposed any uni ammo thing.
I propose realistic secondary fire modes, and with a large kind of ammo in most cases.


About the secondary fire mode with cartridges, I only wanted to mention the fact if this kind of mode when we use ammo is:
-A standard ammo transformation (01)
-A use of multiple cartridges to make an other "ammo" (02)
-When we have 2 cannon they must have their own ammo (03)
-When we have several cannons with the same ammo, the alternate fire can use them at once (04)
-A multiple loading system (05)

All of my examples are from games with multiple ammo system


I wanted to ask about the secondary fire modes, what are the things we want or don't want and what kind of ammo can be used for each examples.


For example I take the example of an assault rifle

Primary fire Bullets
Secondary fire Grenades


With this gun we have only two possibilities with alternate fire mode

Primary fire is bullets in the two cases
1 possibility (02)
Secondary fire needs 10 cartridges to launch a grenade
2 possibility (03)
Secondary fire use separate ammo a grenade

the first possibility is more old school game
the second is more modern


An other example with some shotguns


1/Standard shotgun
Primary fire (shells)
Secondary fire (Slug)

In all examples the primary fire is a standard shell or use a standard shell

Single cannon (01)
Secondary fire use the same shell but as a slug
Single cannon with separate loader (a bit difficult for a realistic thing) (03)
Secondary fire use a slug ammo
An other thing is a simple change ammo, that can allow an other secondary fire mode

Twin cannon (03)
Secondary fire use the slug cannon to fire slugs
Twin cannon (01)
Secondary fire use the shell to fire the slug
Twin cannon (02)
Secondary fire use 2 shells to fire a powerful slug
This is close to a multiple barreled weapon but if the barrels have different sizes this can be suitable


2/Multiple barreled shotgun

Primary fire use only one shell in all examples

Twin cannon (04)
Secondary fire use fir all shells

Quad cannon (04)
Secondary fire ignites the 4 shells at once
Quad cannon (05)
Secondary fire loads each shell and fire them when release or fire the primary fire to fire each loaded shells


The true first question is more about ammo modes that the secondary fire itself ?
Does ammo have a low amount of functions ?
Does ammo can be multifunctional but with some realism ?
Does ammo can be multifunctional but with mor sci fi things ?

The second is about the secondary fire, what are the limits of it ?
Only aiming systems (I have some answers about it but the some other questions remains)
The use of ammo with an other form, an other cannon/ammo or loading system

The third is; if we have multiple functional weapons (Assault rifles for example)
For the other functions does we use a weapon mode switch ? or stay with the secondary fire?

I like secondary fire because it's practiceful when we use a weapon with two or more functions in all kind of games (realistic and unrealistic)
Some weapons have no fire modes like a standard pistol

A have an idea about weapons and fire modes is to use custom fire modes (with the weapon possibilities of course), with an easy customization, but some players can dislike it ...

For the ammo transformation for me we needs some special cartridges, energy and chemical weapons, or a special weapon to keep some realism, but that is my great question about this kind of use (Use a flamethrower and fire a napalm bomb is very funny or use a rocket launcher as a grenade launcher make this kind of weapon very tactical to use). This kind process shouldn't be used in all weapons but some of them to keep some variety

if a secondary fire mode is a bit "arcady" ok, but it's fun to use and allow some awesome possibilities...

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 15:57
Slug cannon??

Ah, it's a shotgun, not a hybrid howitzer!! :lol:

Civil Shotgun
--------

A. Birdshot
B. Magnum slugs
C. CS Gas
D. Rubber plug

Have to understand that the game (if it's like DX) will have no-kill and stealth players. Cannons and heavy firepower won't be their forte. Having weapons that can dual mode will be in handy, let alone JC was a federalized cop anyway.

jcp28
24th Jul 2008, 16:02
Secondary fire is cool. It would be great for blowing away enemies. On the other hand, there's quite a bit more to DX than just cool explosions. Sure, you can kill every enemy and even blow your way through a number of doors and barriers, but it would be better if we didn't have the guncraft overwhelm the much-deeper gameplay. Sure, we can have the option, but flashy explosions or faster firing rates shouldn't be encouraged in a game where we can choose what we do. In DX, I always felt like I had the choice of what I wanted to do, even if it felt easier to blow open some door or gate or whatever.

GruntOwner
24th Jul 2008, 18:56
I can accept there being an abnormal level of firepower given the martial law dystopia DX is set in, so the GEP gun was understandable. It was also welcome because the alternative would either be invincible bots who MUST be stealthed or sucky bots like in IW where spiderbots were a joke. Most guns in real life don't have secondary fire. They may have grenade launchers attached later, but unless you have the OICW or whatever the australian type was, both of which were too expensive to be mass produced, you won't have a secondary fire on anything. Fire modes I'll be happy to leave out. It would be nice for all weapons to either be semi auto or full auto but possible to squeeze single shots out. A 3 round burst weapon would be good for mid range sniping, but I wouldn't want the assault rifle to come with some awkward fire rate adjuster. It's just never as streamlined as I would want to see from DX combat, which is only a secondary aspect to a masterpiece. Even on games which need their combat to work have clunky fire/item selection.

Blade_hunter
24th Jul 2008, 21:28
Slug cannon??

Ah, it's a shotgun, not a hybrid howitzer!! :lol:

Civil Shotgun
--------

A. Birdshot
B. Magnum slugs
C. CS Gas
D. Rubber plug

I'm sorry I wanted to designate the barrel that can fire the slug because we can use a twin barrel shotgun with one barrel for shells and an other for the slugs, not an heavy cannon, I'm sorry to don't speak english well, but I try to do my best to speak correctly as possible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

In this article we can find some interesting ammo for shotguns and the different calibers.
If someone wants a shotgun with an underbarrel howitzer :P that isn't my idea :D

And in DX we can use military weapons anyway, we aren't limited to civil and police weapons.

As you you say IRL we haven't secondary fire trigger in weapons except on underbarrel GL or shotguns, but in games have we a full realism ?
The weapon overheating, the maintenance, the projectile delay

I understand the fact you don't want a secondary fire mode, for a realistic issue, but I don't think you want the rest of the realistic things even if some guns have a secondary fire trigger (like the old M4 M203 for example)
In the mod tactical ops the M4 M203 use the fire mode selector for the GL, but we loose the modes for the bullets (because we have only one fire selector).

Cr4sh
24th Jul 2008, 22:00
Have to understand that the game (if it's like DX) will have no-kill and stealth players.

But for no-kill players the game will have to differ between knocked unconcious and killed, which DX - and that is the only thing I can critizise about this game - did not do. "You killed a lot of people tonight" - Although I saved them by knocking them unconcious or stunning them. If I would have let them alive, the UNATCO troops would have killed them all... :mad2:

jcp28
25th Jul 2008, 00:57
As long as there isn't a shotgun howitzer, I don't care what else they decide to do as long as it isn't too silly.

Chemix
25th Jul 2008, 02:09
Last I recall, Deus Ex wasn't based around street cops of New York. JC is built as a living weapon, by world dominating mad men that are deploying cyborg super soldiers to the streets of Paris, along with full size giant robots of doom. The cop act ends once you leave UNATCO and get captured by MJ12 (who really is, UNATCO, and UNATCO is MJ12). While I don't think the first weapon you get in the game should be an M16 with under barrel grenade launcher; you have to remember that you got a plasma cannon in the first game, along with self sharpening sword that was effectively a lightsaber.

Pump Shotgun: Primary fire= top barrel, Secondary fire= both barrels.
That's not that ridiculous to expect is it.
On Assault rifles it could switch the firemode from Auto to Semi and visa versa.
On a crossbow it could increase tension as long as it's held down to make darts fly farther.

However, I do like the iron sights on the right click, so I'd suggest mapping secondary fire to the scroll wheel click by default, or a key like "G" or "F"

Psychopomp
25th Jul 2008, 03:07
I know no game in which you had to aim higher the farther the target is away


Red Orchestra, you should try it. It's Multiplayer only, but it's EXTREEEEME realism drives away all but the hardest of core.

On that note, I just realized I haven't picked up Red Orchestra since TF2 came out...

Uni Ammo:One of those idea's that sound good on paper. I for one, do not want to see it return in the slightest. Not being the most accurate person in the world, much ammo get wasted.

DXeXodus
25th Jul 2008, 03:55
I felt that the system in Deus Ex 1 was a winning formula. One had to change the type of ammo, either in your inventory screen or with the press of a button. This allowed the use of secondary fire, (such as HE rounds,WP rockets, sabot rounds, etc) but made it a little more tricky and added to the tactical nature of the game. One needed to recon the area and make a tactical decision as to which type of ammo to use for that situation, instead of just running in guns blazing.

This control mechanism also resulted in the right mouse button not being used for secondary fire, but rather as the 'use' function, which in my opinion works very well.

Kevyne-Shandris
25th Jul 2008, 05:46
And in DX we can use military weapons anyway, we aren't limited to civil and police weapons.

To answer your post and others since I posted: the issue is options between different play styles, not that the weapons themselves can't be available. And yes, JC was basically a cop -- federalized SWAT [just go back and check the interaction he had with the cops in the game itself, compared to more paramilitary units].

One thing in game development folks will see is a limit on how many weapons are in a game (for sheer programming reasons, finite amounts of cash and time). Combine it with the legacy of DX (multiple gameplays from run+gun/no-kill/stealth), this makes weapons that can be used for all three even more limited.

What happens to the no-kill/stealth players when their faced with just F.E.A.R. style weapons?

What's your options for no-kill weapons? And weapons that stealth players can use to aid them around the baddies?

Too much weapons talk about bigger and badder firepower, and forgetting the other 2 play styles (me, I shoot'em up, but mindful that some love to sneak and poke around, instead).


I understand the fact you don't want a secondary fire mode, for a realistic issue, but I don't think you want the rest of the realistic things even if some guns have a secondary fire trigger (like the old M4 M203 for example)

As mentioned above, secondary firemode isn't a problem (l-o-v-e HE rounds...using it like mad in SH4 to bring down destroyers...lololol). But the secondary fire has to be play style compatible.

Something for everyone. The illustration of that shotgun showed it had offensive/defensive capabilities. Same needs to be said with other weapons, so any play style can pick up a weapon and try it out (even the no-kill play style has weapons in DX, stun gun/baton/tear gas). In DX3 how about expanding multi-use firearms so they can carry around the neat stuff, yet use different ammo?

Win-win for every player.

HouseOfPain
25th Jul 2008, 06:06
(but mindful that some love to sneak and poke around, instead)

QFT! I'm the one who goes 'poking around'

and by poking around I mean poking with a Prod Charger :rolleyes:

Kevyne-Shandris
25th Jul 2008, 06:27
QFT! I'm the one who goes 'poking around'

and by poking around I mean poking with a Prod Charger :rolleyes:

Eidos is unique, it has the Thief franchise. What will those players do in DX3, if they can't do what they did in DX?

Beauty of DX was I could just sniper; then switch to sneak (did a lot of that with the MJ12); and just no-kill (some UNATCO troops -- can't just kill my namesake!!). ;)

HouseOfPain
25th Jul 2008, 06:34
For the Terrorists, I do not kill ANY of them.

For the UNATCO, I am the same, they are merely good people with bad puppeteers.

MJ12 is fair game in my book ;) Snipe, stab, blowup, whatever! The world could do without them :D

Blade_hunter
25th Jul 2008, 09:46
It's not because I give examples with basic killing weapon that would say, I want only killing weapons...
The main question remains, I have a question about the ammo use in alternate fire modes, and no one displays if they want weapons can use ammo in the same manner as old games


Does ammo have a low amount of functions ?
Does ammo can be multifunctional but with some realism ?
Does ammo can be multifunctional but with mor sci fi things ?
I wanted to ask if the alternate modes of a weapon can transform ammo to get an other function, and it's limit of use


Click in the arrow

Click in the arrow

In some weapons / ammo threads I tried to propose no killing weapons even some

Kevyne-Shandris
25th Jul 2008, 12:05
It's not because I give examples with basic killing weapon that would say, I want only killing weapons...
The main question remains, I have a question about the ammo use in alternate fire modes, and no one displays if they want weapons can use ammo in the same manner as old games

I'm getting use to of manual loading and even jams in AA. So to me, I'd want to reload manually and want the jams (to keep me on my toes). As for alternative ammo, I know a shotgun can use multiple types of ammo using the same type of shell. So ingame, multi-color ammo to distinguish it would be fine. Red for standard shells; yellow and blue for other ammo. But different types of ammo per weapon as choices. Prefer more ammo types than 101 weapons, because in the end you'll really just prefer to use 1 or 2 weapons anyway.

If we could design our own weapons (module style), wouldn't even need to have 20 zillion models, either.

Also in AA there's a few extra modes in throwing grenades. One is your standard throw; "cooking" the grenade so it'll explode faster (risky if you forget to count down!!); and rolling it to not alert the enemy (as you're shouting "Get back! Grenade!" otherwise). That would be handy in DX3, because sometimes a frontal attack isn't always wise.

Would like a armor piercing round for a sniper rifle. Comes in handy to disable the smaller stuff (like spiderbots/cameras/those pesky IR traps and such). Be sweet that certain switches have to be snipered, too (in MP, it'll give snipers something to do than just wait and pick).

Would like different sights (mod addons). One for nightfire (nightvision and a illuminated [glow] range finder for outdoor shots); one for zoom; and the handy dandy laser for sidearms.

For sidearms, the alternative is a double clip (not just a larger clip). For the dual pistol shooters, they'd love it. Ammo for sidearms would be your standard full jacket ammo [military style]; hollow points; and deadly dum dums (which is why it's nice to play a cop, soldiers by the Geneva Convention can't use such ammo, full jacket only). Better grips is another possible mod addon (10+ accuracy or such).

Assault rifle (the mainstay for in-your-face-types) -- semi-burst-auto modes of fire. Ammo, as for the sidearms but larger caliber. Clip size of about 30 to 120 rounds. In BF2142 they had 2 types -- one for real fast bursts upclose (huge mag/fast reload); the other for more mid-range but more accurate bursts (smaller mag and longer reload time). Those wanting to get into the front and mow things down, went for the former; those who supplied more cover fire and needing to sniper closer chose the latter. The fast assault rifle also had the grenade launcher (with missiles -- and those missiles you dialed the range [sweet to knock out snipers w-a-y up in perches]).

Cannons/Missile/Plasma type weapons (for serious cover fire at range) -- Ammo there would be based coverage. Huge impact designed to take out vehicles (rarest); medium impact for mobs (rare); small impact to blow walls/doors/windows/traps (common). Special ammo for taking down big mobs (napalm stuff to burn them down); taking down large bots or stations (power plants/turrets/etc.).

So in essence, instead of so much about secondary fire, ammo can achieve the same effect (and gives folks a reason to search an area for "goodies"). The beauty of DX was searching around and finding that Napalm canister hidden in some corner; or a box of 7.62mm rounds right at a prime sniper perch. Heck, in DX you may have found a 10mm box on a control panel (how about in a control panel next, devs? Those lockpicks were getting rare towards the end!).

Blade_hunter
25th Jul 2008, 15:01
I tried to propose a lot of weapons, for realism, for tactics and for choice even if it's a sort of ACR weapons (Advanced Combat Rifle) I can propose some models with different features and tactics and keep the difference between each guns.
If you want I can demonstrate my imagination about this kind of weap and more, I can propose original alternate fire modes with the same projectile and propose tactical weapons.
My objective by proposing dozens of weapons it's not to use several kinds of ammo on the same weapon, in DX lots of weapons have their examples
look at the stealth pistol and the 10 mm pistol, look at the Sawed off shotgun and the Assault shotgun, the grenades etc
No one was perfect and all of them have some tactics
When we look at the DX assault rifle, it isn't a perfect weapon by it's conception.
It's more a standard assault rifle than an ACR

I proposed some hunting weapons and some "everyday weapons"
The first concept of this kind of weapon was the crowbar, after we've got a wrench, a knife, etc

If we can create guns it's more a way to get some "junk weapons" than well made weapons like industrial guns and they are preprogrammed.
An other idea about this it's a weapon conversion, when you find a conversion kit you can convert an assault rifle to a machine gun or a sniper rifle or an SMG, but this is a weapon transformation.
(IRL we have the Steyr Aug that can be converted into an SMG, an ACR (the australian conversions), a Machine gun and a sniper rifle, this isn't the only gun to have these features, but this is only an example)
This is a mean to expand the DX gun conversion

For the rest I think some realism is good for games, that give tactical use from each weapons and some balance, but if we rest only with realism we remove the fun, when we play to games with realism rare are them to give a maximum amount of realism.
They add some realism but not every inconvenients and advantages.

Kevyne-Shandris
25th Jul 2008, 16:40
Don't know about others, but many weapons just won't feel right in the DX world. With DX3, and a chance of a "design-a-mod" or even weapons, it maybe even moot.

Would you rather make your own weapon the way you like it, than being forced to use (and eventually) throw away weapon upon weapon?

Say you start off with a standard pistol. After some experience (and/or picking up parts along the searchs and such), you can take that pistol, strip it of it's rail, springs, hammer and handle, and fashion it into you next shotgun. From there you can branch off into more complex weapons. No longer limited ("You can't have a zoom sight on a 10mm!!"..."Try this..BAM!!"), you can now have a weapon how you like it.

On the programming side, each part can have some statistics in itself, so players will have to experiment with what part adds the best perk they seek (some maybe willing to trade firepower for accuracy; or distance for clip size, etc.). Mod add ons can increase the stats per function (scope gets x amount of range; clip gets x amount of more rounds. etc.). These addons aren't moddable but are balancers so in MP it doesn't get crazy.

Since the DX world is so unique, maybe DX truly should be unique in how it uses firepower, and how that firepower is delievered. Instead of your standard "Here's your weapon", you now have to build it yourself. For the tinkering nature of the cyberpunk world, it'll fit in like nothing else. Same goes with the hacking side -- you need the snoop ware to even get to hack and crack (as just running up to a terminal and typing "Opensesame", just isn't realistic -- it's just not going to be like that in 25+ years).

Blade_hunter
25th Jul 2008, 18:46
Create weapons in games is an other way to find them ...
Create really weapons in games like I can build things by myself is pretty hard on games, it's more easy to make a lot of them, but we go out of the subject.



Does ammo have a low amount of functions ?
Does ammo can be multifunctional but with some realism ?
Does ammo can be multifunctional but with more sci fi things ?

No one give me any answer about it.

Kevyne-Shandris
25th Jul 2008, 19:02
Are you trying to say..



Can ammo have fewer functions?
Can multi-functional ammo be realistic?
Can ammo be multi-functional and also sci-fi?


1. Yes (limits on velocity; distance; size, etc.).
2. Yes (same sized rounds or shells can be packed with powder/shot/slugs/plugs, to even CS [in shotguns it's a powder] and even employed for biochemical warfare).
3. Yes (shells can be replaced with power packs for use in lasers and plasma weapons).

Blade_hunter
25th Jul 2008, 20:24
Not exactly I want to talk about the fact if one ammo can have some functions or not, I'm sure we wants to use some sorts of ammo, but I don't know anything about the fact if one kind of ammo can have several functions or not.
I use the therm "function" instead of "fire" to show the fact is more about ammo I want to talk, than the secondary fire itself.
Examples

Rocket launcher
Primary function is launch a rocket
Secondary function is launch a grenade
In games we have some possibilities
-The rocket and the grenades are separate ammo
-The rocket can be used as a grenade
That is an example of a realistic thing and a more futuristic thing

Assault Rifle
Primary function is fire bullets
Secondary function is launch a grenade
In games we have some possibilities
-The bullets and the grenades are separate ammo
-The Bullets can be used as a grenades by using some bullets when we fire the grenade
In this example we can see a realistic assault rifle, and a gun that work as a more sci-fi thing

Shotgun
Primary function is fire shells
Secondary function is fire incendiary pellets
In games we have some possibilities
-The normal shells and incendiary shells are separate ammo
-The normal shells can be used as incendiary shells by using the same amount of ammo
-The normal shells can be used as incendiary shells by using some shells when we fire the incendiary shells



I want to explain more:
Does a rocket can be used as a grenade ?
Does a slug can be used as a shot shell ?
Does bullets can be used as a big shot shell or a grenade ?

1/Can we use a kind of ammo in a gun and the gun can give to ammo some functions like a rocket can be transformed to a grenade, a grenade to a sticky mine, bullets can be explosive bullets, etc by using an alternate fire mode

2/Can we use a kind of ammo in a gun and the gun can use several cartridges to make an other projectile by consuming some ammo, like a flare can be a fragmentary fire bomb, like bullets can be used as grenades, like napalm can be transformed to a napalm bomb, etc by using alternate fire mode

3/Does we use ammo like standard ammo or real ammo, a grenade stay a grenade, a rocket can't be used as a grenade, bullets have no other function than it's own

Using separate ammo is realistic, but use one ammo to do other things like rocket can be used as a grenade, is more futuristic or pure sci-fi in some cases.

Fen
25th Jul 2008, 20:47
Not really a fan of secondary fire. As far as I know, there are very few guns in this world who have an alternate way of firing their bullets. It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense on a practical level. More complex and more moving parts just leads to higher chances of something going wrong.

Its ok if secondary fire allowed to change from burst to single shot to full auto, or if an assault rifle had a gren launcher at the bottom. But I dont really wanna see a rifle that fires normal bullets with one click and incendiary rounds with another click.

I like Deus ex's multiple ammo types have to load your own ammo system. It ecourages preparation. So people just dont go running in and gives you multiple ways to deal with a situation even though you might have a limited number of different guns.

Kevyne-Shandris
25th Jul 2008, 21:04
Because a grenade isn't propelled like a missile the operator has no need to worry about blowback from the nozzle of a missile. A grenade launcher can be a closed tube.

A rocket launcher needs clearance so the propellent of a missile doesn't blow the face off the operator. Realistically, it'll be a over the shoulder weapon with the tail end over the shoulder (and clearance from behind). In AA (America's Army game) you can kill a team mate if the blowback is close enough, as in reality. Never stand behind a Bazooka/RPG launcher, for example.

Sci-Fi, you'd do away with projectiles all together (as they're not accurate and heavy), and use laser, or better, plasma "rays" or bombs, instead. Plasma does worse damage, too (few metals can withstand that heat).

Explosive bullets are possible, but for what purpose? If it's to replace armor piecing bullets, it won't do a good job, unless it's an exploding armor piecing bullet (delayed fuse, much like depleted uranium rounds -- they enter the armor plating, and then explode). If it's a modified dum dum bullet, that is designed as anti-personel, I can see it being the first weapon banned for MP! No one would survive for long with all that flying around. It'll put snipering out of business too!

For shotgun shells = dry powder. If any incendiary shells are to be used, it has to be of a powder form -- magnesium or phosphorus or some light metal type. No napalm (those shells aren't well sealed, they leak badly). Totally seperate ammo.

If you want pure sci-fi, chuck all these weapon concepts. You'll be going straight with lasers and/or plasma. Your rounds will be replaced by energy packs, and how many shots/bombs you can get out of them.

Near-future would have lasers/masers/electo-magnetic/radio-frequency (microwave) type weapons.

Blade_hunter
25th Jul 2008, 22:39
I agree by the fact we can't use a rocket launcher in closed rooms even if now we try to change this kind of guns to be used in indoors (AT4 CS for example)
Our weapons tends to have less inconvenients, and some missile launchers haven't this blowback not for the same reasons as a standard RL, because the launcher throw the missile without ignites it and some meters after, the missile put itself on an fly by its propellant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin_anti-tank_missile

those bullets are just an example and even if we use them it never replace AP rounds

For sci fi :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon

some weapons are currently at research state

For the realism, most weapons actually are very specialized, but near future I think the weapons becomes "polyfunctional" because the assault rifles are the first weapons that use two fire modes
we can use GL and shotguns as an underbarreled cannon
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh28-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl09-E.HTM

For the rest I think no one wants an arcady ammo use like form a grenade by using 10 bullets ...

serene_chaos
26th Jul 2008, 07:13
A little off topic, slightly, but what does everyone think of the ability to switch rate of fire? In my opinion its pretty much a standard feature in all fps games nowadays, same with iron sight aiming.
P.S. I havnt been here in a while, apologies if this has already been discussed.

Also, I just installed the shifter mod, and ive got to say, i like it. i like the secondary fire bindings to the scopes, and the flamethrowers secondary, and the way the laser sight moves around and actually does show where your bullets going to hit.

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 07:35
I agree by the fact we can't use a rocket launcher in closed rooms even if now we try to change this kind of guns to be used in indoors (AT4 CS for example)
Our weapons tends to have less inconvenients, and some missile launchers haven't this blowback not for the same reasons as a standard RL, because the launcher throw the missile without ignites it and some meters after, the missile put itself on an fly by its propellant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin_anti-tank_missile

If you haven't played AA, get it, it has the Javelin. Once you played that thing, you want to find ANY OTHER TYPE OF WEAPON.

That's godawful all that has to be done to get that thing to work. Not only to chamber the tube, activate the CLAW, then sight in (to fire from above or straight through), pick night/day, and THEN zoom in to the target (and you must be steady to lock on target). The only saving grace is it tracks the target (why you must be careful from where the round is traveling -- if you shoot straight and the tank goes between some hills, it's a wasted shot).

That would kill your casual gamer's interest in about 10 minutes!

BTW, you can only carry 1 tube at a time. Unless DX is like BF2142 in MP with Support that lugs a ammo crate around, it won't be used much (it's also so huge you're limited in what other firearms you can carry, some team mate will have to cover your butt).

Now to make something like that for DX, would be a little pointless, since the universe has LAWs (not like the Javelin, but it's designed to shoot once and throw away, which is good for the inventory).

You do remember the RPG side of this game of an limited inventory, right? 1 to 3 weapons max, as you'll be holding grenades, medkits, food and other essentials.

Cr4sh
26th Jul 2008, 07:52
It is clear to me, that the rocket launcher in DX will be a futuristic one, because todays rocket launchers + ammo are way too heavy.

I was in the german Bundeswehr and also fired and carried around a Panzerfaust 3, which weighs 13 kg with one rocket. You have some sort of carrying bag (as seen in XIII, actually the rocket launcher there IS the Panzerfaust 3), which takes 3 rockets I think (never saw this thing in RL), which must be over 30kg. So, if in DX3 you would have some rocket launcher as we have it today, you could at max transport, let's say 3 rockets, unless you use some sort of volume and weight reduction system.

iWait
26th Jul 2008, 07:53
Plus the Javelin is a long-range weapon, and in Deus Ex there are not many places I can think of where you would want it over the LAW/GEP GUN.

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 08:12
It is clear to me, that the rocket launcher in DX will be a futuristic one

Hope so. The plasma or cannon in F.E.A.R. would be the right thing (as it was based on microgravity research, a breaking science now, but one in 25+ years will be persuing more than fire/flame studies in microgravity).

Plasma is a long way off though, probably 2100 range. Have to develop a way to contain the charge [incredible amount of energy is needed] and metals that can withstand that heat (thermal degradation would be extreme, think how hot that barrel would get!).

Would like to see if DX3 would have some radio-frequency type weapons, though. The military is experimenting with it for riot control as it is. Imagine the ability to jam it with a scrambler or electro-static grenade, too. ;)

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 11:04
Now to make something like that for DX, would be a little pointless, since the universe has LAWs (not like the Javelin, but it's designed to shoot once and throw away, which is good for the inventory).

You do remember the RPG side of this game of an limited inventory, right? 1 to 3 weapons max, as you'll be holding grenades, medkits, food and other essentials.

In DX we can carry a several number of items, the MP is 3 weapons max, but DX have a larger inventory

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5710/inventoryvy7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5710/inventoryvy7.40c26af3e2.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=209&i=inventoryvy7.jpg)

This is not my inventory but a screen found on a site

DX have a versatile inventory, the MP is limited to be simple an quick to use
1 to 3 .....
The the SP have this
it's more 3 heavy + some light items to many light weapons and items
it's a 6 x 5 inventory with 30 squares ....

About weapons the javelin is a long range weapon, yes but we have the SRAW, it's a more compact weapon and it's short range

I just wanted to say the newer rocket based weapons tends to have no problems about the blowback
The DX RLs throws some smoke on their rear, but not a big flame.

Most LAWs and missile launchers are shot and throw away I never say those weapons can be reloaded
Weapons like the SMAW, some RPGs can be reloaded because they are designed to be reusable

About weaponry and some functions

I misunderstand by the fact when I give examples the players that read me tends to say I want this thing because I give it as example
I never say I wanted to have real rocket launchers, I want fictional weapons with a logical mean of working with interesting tactics.

If we see some weapons from the game red faction they are fictional but they are realistic by their mean of working
The DX weapons too they are fictional and realistic even if some functions doesn't work well (like the HE 20 mm it has the same clip size as the 7.62 mm ammo)
Or some weapons form AVP 2 even if I disliked the fact some weapons have no reloads but that's my opinion.
In the Game Unreal 2 we have some weapons with some logical mean of working too event if some weapons like the assault rifle sounds to be a bit too futuristic by the fact it use 10 bullets for its special fire
In the game UT if we use a reloading system the weapons can be logical

Those examples are only to say DX is a futuristic game with futuristic and fictional contemporary weapons like (SS2)
DX has a Plasma rifle
SS2 have a Fusion cannon
For example
I want to keep this from DX

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 11:58
Ah, you missed the GEP/Plasma, which took so many squares. This is more like the inventory looks...

http://home.comcast.net/~deus_ex_machina/dxf/Deus_Ex_Inventory.gif

And what you propose are weapons that take squares like the GEP/Plasma would've (as rocket anything is going to be huge).

Javelin will have the same problems with blowback. Anything that needs to be propelled in that manner will have a powerful exhaust, with the velocity to blast the operator to Kingdom Come!

Missiles can get you coming and going.

I'll give you another example...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shillelagh_missile

My brother was a tank commander (calvary scout), and that was his tank (M551 Sheridan) then. Read about the history of that missile experiment, too. It was no wonder why my brother was furious with the army changing from 100% cotton fatigues to 50/50 BDUs (cotton uniforms if caught on fire could easily be removed, polyester melts into the skin, acting even as it's own fuel. Something tankers are v-e-r-y concerned about, especially with such ticking timebombs right next to them. If you don't die outright from an explosion, the fire will get you).

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 12:56
With all heavy weapons you can use 3 of them + 6 one square items I know what I say about it and it go up to more medium sized items ...
all heavy takes 2x4 slots except the LAW ...

About the missiles yes, I've made a mistake, the missile launcher with lower blowback was the SRAW, instead of the Javelin, because the SRAW can be used in closed spaces like the AT4 CS ...

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 13:41
With all heavy weapons you can use 3 of them + 6 one square items I know what I say about it and it go up to more medium sized items ...
all heavy takes 2x4 slots except the LAW ...

Look at my pic again. 8 slots for the GEP. That's the size weapon you'll be getting with a rocket launcher you're proposing (as it's larger than stock) -- as the GEP IS a rocket launcher.

There's 30 slots in that screen. In DX3, who knows how many we'll be getting 8/16/32/48/64. If it's anything like it is in games now, it'll be 30 or less (they're really limiting how many or what weapons a player can carry).


About the missiles yes, I've made a mistake, the missile launcher with lower blowback was the SRAW, instead of the Javelin, because the SRAW can be used in closed spaces like the AT4 CS ...

Notice the blowback. Look at the exhaust end of that tube...

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-172.html

From Wikipedia on the AT4 CS


To fire, the user must first ensure that no friendly troops or equipment are present in the back blast area. If firing from the prone position (i.e. lying on his stomach) he must also place his legs well to the side to avoid burning himself. He then disengages two safeties, cocks a mechanical firing pin and presses a trigger button. Aiming is accomplished via range-adjustable plastic sights, which are concealed beneath sliding covers for transport. Alternatively, the weapon can carry an optical night sight on a removable mount.

That blast is even larger than a bazooka (remembering playing with this as a kid -- back in the 70s, kids were really playing with their dad's war weapons! One thing I don't see in these descriptions, is the sight that was used then -- a flip type [looked like plexiglass with red lines for elevation])...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazooka

And a M72 LAW...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M72_LAW

Missiles are designed to propel itself quickly at a target. In doing so, it takes velocity. Anyone understanding ballistics knows, higher the velocity it takes the more energy it'll take to propel the projectile. Missiles travel faster than grenades and HE rounds, but with extra dangers for the quicker trip (think of a breeched round, and all the steps to take to avoid it exploding in your face), that gas has to go somewhere.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th Jul 2008, 13:45
I really loved the inventory slot system.
The fact that more space is taken up by larger weapons, leaving less room for carrying more smaller items, was very realistic and really made the player think before choosing.

I hope this type of weapon inventory is incorporated again in Deus Ex 3. :cool:

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 14:01
Hum I don't think anyone want's a tiny inventory like Chrome, you can only use 2 to 3 weapons

I prefer got a size that can be upgraded with the skills and a good size than a tiny size to get only 3 weapons ...

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 14:12
Hum I don't think anyone want's a tiny inventory like Chrome, you can only use 2 to 3 weapons

I prefer got a size that can be upgraded with the skills and a good size than a tiny size to get only 3 weapons ...

That's the trend now in gaming. Be it a FPS or even a MMO, they're docking what players can carrying around.

It's a shame, as I'm a damn pack rat (I buy warehouses in MMOs, and STILL don't have enough room!). :lol:

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 14:43
The trend of gaming makes newer games to be a great visual spectacle without gameplay possibilities.
If I loved DX and some specific games it's because they are different from other games, not because the game thrust a trend.

DX was a game, that doesn't trust any trend, when this game was sold, the games was turned to multiplayer because it was the trend at this time.
Quake 3, Unreal tournament and counter strike was the most famous games in 2000
DX proposes a great single player experience, for me the trend was the thing that break games, because we have too much games, with the same theme and with a console gameplay

Chemix
26th Jul 2008, 14:46
I still think a realistic system is needed rather than slots. Where a series of pockets, straps, holsters and bandoleers hold things rather than an invisible tetris backpack, which worked in 2000, but today....

Picture this, 2 handgun holsters, one on the left hip, one under the left arm. Then, 2 or 3 back strap slots for longer weapons like assault rifles, sniper rifles, rail guns, gauss guns, rocket launchers, etc. etc. After that you've got one or two bandoleers, with chain ammo or grenades. 2 Inner jacket pockets hold med packs or bio cells or what have you, and 2 lower outer pockets hold misc small items like vials of serum or quest items. 2 pant leg pockets hold more med kits, misc items, bio cells, what have you. On the belt you hold more grenades, and a satchel for rockets.

You end up able to carry
2 handguns
3 long-medium size weapons
2 ammo chains for miniguns or LMGs or 4-8 grenades on bandoleers
4 med kits in the upper pockets, 2 each pocket, or 6 biocells, 3 each pocket
4-6 misc items in the lower pockets, 2-3 each
2 med kits or 4 misc items in the pants pockets
3 grenades
4-5 small rockets for reloadable rocket launchers

So you get 5 weapons, 6 med kits or 6-8 biocells, 2 chains of ammo and 3 grenadesor just 8-12 grenades, 8 misc slots, and 4-5 rockets. Small ammo doesn't take up a slot for ease of use purposes.

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 15:23
DX proposes a great single player experience, for me the trend was the thing that break games, because we have too much games, with the same theme and with a console gameplay

True. But markets make these top tier games now. As long as it's an investors market, publishers are going to cast their nets wide.

EIDOS is further hampered by corporate issues itself (management issues and buyouts). It's IP is a tad small, and they have to produce some damn good existing games to show their investors they can do the job, as they're starting from scratch (this isn't the Net bubble EIDOS anymore). By 2010 or 2012 we can see if EIDOS is willing to take risks (like tailoring a game to it's built in fanbase). Until then, expect it to follow the market, and what other AAA publishers are doing to play safe.

Don't like it one bit, but I don't have $50,000,000 to produce my own AAA game.

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 15:24
You want a sort of separate inventories with some special rooms

This system is used in chrome, but Chrome instead of you proposal use a tiny inventory
I thin but perhaps I've wrong

it's a sort of multiple inventories with their size

-two small areas for handguns and maybe machine pistols

-three large areas for rifles and larger weapons (maybe a back pack ?)

-bandoleers for ammo

-some pockets for utility

I have a question about your inventory

a)Is your inventory is slot based (for example one slot = one item of the slot category?)
b)Is your inventory is multiple slot based with squares (for example in the "handgun holsters" can we put a grenade for example or a lockpick if we don't use handguns ?"
c)Is your inventory is slot and weight based (for example we have slots for specified items but we are limited also with weight? that can disallow to carry too much heavy weapons)


Don't like it one bit, but I don't have $50,000,000 to produce my own AAA game.

I agree with, but if I'm here, it's because I think DX was a great game, not only because it have great qualities, it's because it innovates, it propose an "impossible mix of gameplays"
not by the fact we mix the RPG and the FPS, but more by the fact this game allow us to play as a covered player or as combative player, all ways need strategies and tactics, but for me that's the true strength of the game.
I want DX 3 keeps the fact we can build a versatile character as a specialized character,

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 15:36
I still think a realistic system is needed rather than slots. Where a series of pockets, straps, holsters and bandoleers hold things rather than an invisible tetris backpack, which worked in 2000, but today....

Picture this, 2 handgun holsters, one on the left hip, one under the left arm. Then, 2 or 3 back strap slots for longer weapons like assault rifles, sniper rifles, rail guns, gauss guns, rocket launchers, etc. etc. After that you've got one or two bandoleers, with chain ammo or grenades. 2 Inner jacket pockets hold med packs or bio cells or what have you, and 2 lower outer pockets hold misc small items like vials of serum or quest items. 2 pant leg pockets hold more med kits, misc items, bio cells, what have you. On the belt you hold more grenades, and a satchel for rockets.

You end up able to carry
2 handguns
3 long-medium size weapons
2 ammo chains for miniguns or LMGs or 4-8 grenades on bandoleers
4 med kits in the upper pockets, 2 each pocket, or 6 biocells, 3 each pocket
4-6 misc items in the lower pockets, 2-3 each
2 med kits or 4 misc items in the pants pockets
3 grenades
4-5 small rockets for reloadable rocket launchers

So you get 5 weapons, 6 med kits or 6-8 biocells, 2 chains of ammo and 3 grenadesor just 8-12 grenades, 8 misc slots, and 4-5 rockets. Small ammo doesn't take up a slot for ease of use purposes.

JC would be a tank! :lol:

Realistically, an agent would just have a peashooter as a weapon (he's an agent, not a soldier). Semi-realistically, as a soldier he'll be limited to one main weapon, sidearm, some grenades, food, ammo, medkit (yes one) and some other nick knacks -- and he'll have a back and butt pack. The limit will be due to weight, even biomodded humans will have a limit what they can carry on them. Not only due to weight, but space (slinging 3 weapons isn't very practical, either).

Really liked it in DX that everything was hidden in JC's coat. It made him look more "business". He could also pass into civilian areas without frightening them to death (ever see what civies do when a soldier shows up in combat gear [no weapon even]?). Furthermore, in this day and age, anyone with a backpack is viewed either as a terrorist or a shoplifter as it is. :(

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th Jul 2008, 15:39
^
Agree on all points there, ScadVid. :)

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 16:24
And DX is a game that allow tank players as stealthy players to play no ?

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 16:35
And DX is a game that allow tank players as stealthy players to play no ?

Notice the tank player still was limited in what he could tank with? If he opted to carry the GEP and Plasma rifle, he couldn't carry much of anything else. That's the RPG side of the game. That whole inventory thingie; name; skills upgrades; food (but not to stay alive); and money is the RPG side.

Serious RPG would be things like requiring to eat and sleep, and perma death. NOT a thing FPSers would like!

What I'm trying to say is: space will be short. Any heavy weapons will be but a couple, if it's not some design-a-mod/design-a-weapon scheme (which would make everything moot, as a weapon could be modded per level as needed).

Chemix
26th Jul 2008, 16:44
JC would be a tank! :lol:

Realistically, an agent would just have a peashooter as a weapon (he's an agent, not a soldier). Semi-realistically, as a soldier he'll be limited to one main weapon, sidearm, some grenades, food, ammo, medkit (yes one) and some other nick knacks -- and he'll have a back and butt pack. The limit will be due to weight, even biomodded humans will have a limit what they can carry on them. Not only due to weight, but space (slinging 3 weapons isn't very practical, either).

Really liked it in DX that everything was hidden in JC's coat. It made him look more "business". He could also pass into civilian areas without frightening them to death (ever see what civies do when a soldier shows up in combat gear [no weapon even]?). Furthermore, in this day and age, anyone with a backpack is viewed either as a terrorist or a shoplifter as it is. :(

I mean no offense by this, but you did play Deus Ex past the initial New York missions, didn't you? UNATCO troops all had assault rifles, and your fellow agents had them as well. Albeit the "assault rifle" looked more like a clunky version of an Uzi and had about half the accuracy of one. Gunther carried a rocket launcher and the policy was kill on sight.

Paul played the cop type role despite his higher ups not liking it, the agents were meant to be weapons.

As for soldiers in civilian areas, I see them not too often, but I'm used to it, and people don't give much more of a reaction than when there is a cop around. Also you have to remember, Deus Ex deals with highly dystopian concepts, like soldiers marching the streets and martial law. People are out there with skull guns and crushing arms made of steel, soldiers are the least of the common civvie's fears.

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 17:07
Exactly and terrorists have flamethrowers too, If we have a plasma rifle and a rocket launcher we are limited of an other items, yes but that's better that be limited to 2 - 3 weapons
I prefer to got a system that allow each kind of player to play than a system that limit the game sightly.

In DX if you want have only two weapons you can ....

I think the limits of the game must stay open, not very closed, the first game was open, why the next game will be thrust a sort of trend ?

Chemix
26th Jul 2008, 17:34
Because necessity is the mother of invention; why both not carrying every thing you find if you can? why not collect an arsenal of 20 weapons you won't use? Limits can deny freedom, yes, and it shouldn't be too limited, but limits also can breed creativity. It's like chess vs checkers, chess has alot more rules than checkers, but it's more strategic for those rules.

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 17:54
I mean no offense by this, but you did play Deus Ex past the initial New York missions, didn't you?

Notice that inventory above? How far is it into the mission to get the Dragontooth in itself?


UNATCO troops all had assault rifles, and your fellow agents had them as well. Albeit the "assault rifle" looked more like a clunky version of an Uzi and had about half the accuracy of one. Gunther carried a rocket launcher and the policy was kill on sight.

I said realistically. Do you see FBI agents using assault rifles as their service weapon?

No.

Same goes for cops, and any other law enforcement (including military MPs). That's the weapon of choice, until they're called to backup for support; or they're going to do some raid. But they're not going to have a assault rifle on their shoulder when called, they return to get the heavier weapons. Besides, heavy weapons ruins the $400+ suit!


Paul played the cop type role despite his higher ups not liking it, the agents were meant to be weapons.

As well as JC, as you can see by what he's been issued from day one.

What his higher ups didn't like was that Paul didn't complete is mission to THEIR liking. Either Denton was sent in for more "sensitive" terminations. Paul got a conscience. Eventually, JC.


As for soldiers in civilian areas, I see them not too often, but I'm used to it, and people don't give much more of a reaction than when there is a cop around.

It depends on the community you're living in. Some, like where I live, with a military base next door, the population is familiar with seeing troops in uniform. BUT, they are still not comfortable with them in combat gear and carrying assault weapons. The same can be said if a cop has his service weapon drawn while responding to a call. This is especially true in public areas like malls (any weapon in a mall makes them edgey in uniform or not -- we had a mall shooting before, to highlight the nervousness).


Also you have to remember, Deus Ex deals with highly dystopian concepts, like soldiers marching the streets and martial law. People are out there with skull guns and crushing arms made of steel, soldiers are the least of the common civvie's fears.

Well, in that situation we really won't be talking about "realism" then. Which means, throw the concepts about any weapon and ammo limits away. It now becomes a "fantasy".

In that case, will we be having unicorns as vehicles?

SubTonic20
26th Jul 2008, 19:04
I for one am completely against secondary fire. Secondary ammo types are a must, but the idea of pressing a different button to use an underbarrel GL is too arcady. "We're police after all" springs to mind, so it stands to reason that your gear is police freindly. I want realitic, yet also controlled. You're doing spec ops after all, not frontline firefights. The isea of iron sights as a secondary fire is ok, but I always prefered using right click as an action, and the only reason games use secondary fire as a zoom is because it's in a convinient place: right click. Having to press "f" to get iron sights isn't very convinient, and I wouldn't do it in most cases. The secondary fire feeding from the normal ammo seems to be a quake theme, which really should say it all when inserting such an idea in to DX.


Agreed 100%. Like I've said a lot to my friends lately, if DX3 turns out to be a finger-numbing shooter, it's automatically a crap game.

Chemix
26th Jul 2008, 19:37
Notice that inventory above? How far is it into the mission to get the Dragontooth in itself?



I said realistically. Do you see FBI agents using assault rifles as their service weapon?

No.

Same goes for cops, and any other law enforcement (including military MPs). That's the weapon of choice, until they're called to backup for support; or they're going to do some raid. But they're not going to have a assault rifle on their shoulder when called, they return to get the heavier weapons. Besides, heavy weapons ruins the $400+ suit!



As well as JC, as you can see by what he's been issued from day one.

What his higher ups didn't like was that Paul didn't complete is mission to THEIR liking. Either Denton was sent in for more "sensitive" terminations. Paul got a conscience. Eventually, JC.



It depends on the community you're living in. Some, like where I live, with a military base next door, the population is familiar with seeing troops in uniform. BUT, they are still not comfortable with them in combat gear and carrying assault weapons. The same can be said if a cop has his service weapon drawn while responding to a call. This is especially true in public areas like malls (any weapon in a mall makes them edgey in uniform or not -- we had a mall shooting before, to highlight the nervousness).



Well, in that situation we really won't be talking about "realism" then. Which means, throw the concepts about any weapon and ammo limits away. It now becomes a "fantasy".

In that case, will we be having unicorns as vehicles?

I was talking about theme, and the extents of what is real for that theme. What is real for us, isn't quite real for someone living in a totally different environment.

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 20:40
I agree with Chemix, the game is about a futuristic world with maybe different rules than our world.
And if we want laser guns, I think the firsts of them are given to military troops, and in DX the guns that Paul give to us when he find us are a
Rocket launcher (military weapon)
Sniper rifle (police / military weapon)
Crossbow (secret agent an divers)

We are not a cop, we are an agent of an anti terrorism coalition A force like the UN or the NATO specialized to counter terrorism operations.
This kind of Union can use stealth agents like Paul or pure soldiers like Anna Navarre or Gunther Hermann
And We can choose our way, that's the freedom of the game, our equipment is an adaptation of our gamestyle.

If we want to be a tank we can, if we want to be versatile we can and if we want to be stealthy we can

I think many players want's a game with a specific gameplay and forget DX allow each kind of players to play.

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 20:56
We are not a cop, we are an agent of an anti terrorism coalition

Like a FBI agent. The FBI are federalized cops.

There's a reason why he's called an "agent", not by a rank like in the military.

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 21:13
A bit like the FBI, with an extended power and more versatile role, if Paul give us a rocket launcher it was a reason no ?
not because we have to kill tanks, it's for the bots, and the easiest way to kill them was the GEP gun

Cr4sh
26th Jul 2008, 21:30
To become somehow offtopic (I just found no fitting thread): I do not much appreciate good graphics, but what would be cool in DX3 compared to the 1 is that the ammo shouldbe lying around not in tiny boxes but in magazines. I never saw JC put single rounds into his mags ;-). Or, if DX3 should really be set after IW, you could alternatively invent some cool animation inwhich you can see that the weapons CAN self-reload with single rounds...

butin the end, it's not really necessary...

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 21:57
Even the military has to load their own. Magazines are rare to find in the field. Ammo should be in ammo crates for realism, and maybe one can per level (or maybe an ammo dump -- loved the Deadwood MP map in F.E.A.R. one ammo dump on each side. Made it fun to fire at will!).

DX did it civilian style (as that's how civilians will buy their ammo), but GI issue is in those cans.

Blade_hunter
26th Jul 2008, 22:04
It's perhaps off topic, but the entire post is off topic we talk about everything but not about the subject you are entirely excused :)

Yes but you break the fact we can use the 10 mm ammo for the stealth pistol and the normal pistol, you break the fact we can upgrade our clip size
With normal guns when we want to upgrade the clip size, we use a larger clip or a drum magazine
The only weapons with a clip designed ammo was the assault rifle with it's main ammo, the prod, the heavy weapons except the GEP gun and the pepper gun, the rest are boxes

I prefer to see boxes, because it facilitates the ammo modeling and allow to build every ammo with ease and if we have an other ammo for a kind of weapon we need only to change the texture to give an other appearance
and ammo boxes allow to use the same ammo with guns with an other kind of clip or loader.

What do you think about it ?

Do you think we must change the weapon concept to use this one or keep the DX base concept

For the last suggestion, it depends if we wants detailed reloads or simpler reloads like DX 1 or simplest reloads like SS2 ...

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Jul 2008, 22:12
and ammo boxes allow to use the same ammo with guns with an other kind of clip or loader.

Cans can do the same, and the good thing about cans are: THEY HOLD MORE AMMO!

200 rounds vs 30 rounds.

Folks would want 200 from the get go!

jcp28
26th Jul 2008, 23:40
Face it, Scadvid, you've lost this round. There will be soldiers patrolling around in cities in times of martial law. It's not like the people will be in much position to do anything about that.

Kevyne-Shandris
27th Jul 2008, 11:36
Face it, Scadvid, you've lost this round. There will be soldiers patrolling around in cities in times of martial law. It's not like the people will be in much position to do anything about that.

Soldiers. ;)

And if push comes to shove, never count out Americans to push back. Already had 2 revolutions as it was, due to the State getting out of hand. If the courts argued that firearms are illegal, ah, you can bet they'll be a 3rd revolution!

Civies will take martial law to an extent, but if it's extended, that's when they rebel. We're not Europe.

jordan_a
27th Jul 2008, 13:03
New! Secondary fire and ammo (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=78558)

Blade_hunter
27th Jul 2008, 15:39
Thanks Jordan :)

I want to come back to the main subject because it's about the ammo functions I want to talk about, more than the secondary fire itself
I use the secondary fire example because it was the basic thing in games
In SS2 the spiritual DX predecessor we have weapon modes

For example a grenade launcher has two modes impact and bounce
In SS 2 it's a weapon mode, but in RF 2 it's a secondary fire mode

The question isn't really about the secondary fire itself

it's more about if the ammo can be polyfunctional or not and if it's polyfunctional how much function can we add to this ammo

Actually in real weapons one ammo have one functions only

many games with ammo use ammo in several forms like a rocket can be a grenade, or use a radio controlled mode, or use grenades as impact or bounce grenades with the same ammo

In most games, this kind of thinking is stopped to keep some logic and allow us to use an other weapon with an other kind of ammo, this allow us to use the same ammo in different forms



In the game SNOWBLIND

the Assault Rifle (Carabine)
Use only bullets
Its primary fire use bullets like any assault rifle
the secondary fire mode use more bullets to make a bounce grenade

In the game UT 2003

the Assault rifle (UT AR)
Use bullets and grenades
Its primary fire use bullets like any assault rifle
the secondary fire mode launch the grenade by using the grenades

The AR from DX 1 is the same as the UT 2003 AR by it's functions except the DX AR use impact grenades and it needs to be reloaded, but the rest remains the same


In Many realistic games the ammo have only one function, the game SOF 2 is an example. this game is one of the firsts that use one ammo = one function, the secondary fire mode is a sort of throw(for knives), melee, aim, low throw(for grenades) or secondary ammo mode (for the M4 M203 only)

In DX the ammo have one up to two functions (grenades can be prox mines, the rocket can be guided/unguided, and the rest have only one function)

The game Unreal Tournament was a bit unique like DX 1, because it was one of the rare games that use the same amount of ammo in the primary and secondary mode
(the great example is the Flack cannon that use the flack shell as like a shotgun or throw an impact fragmentation grenade or the rocket launcher can use the rockets like bounce grenades)

In Snowblind the ammo is semi polyfunctional like SOF 1, Unreal 2, etc ... (the primary fire use the ammo in a standard form, and the secondary fire use the ammo in an other form and use more ammo in some cases)

In DX 2 the ammo is fully polyfunctional like TRON 2.0 (In DX 2 the only ranged weapons that have they own ammo are the grenades, the mines and the fire extinguisher)


The question
Does an alternate fire mode or a weapon mode can use the same ammo in other forms ?
If its the ammo can have more than one function how far we can go with the ammo

In the future some weapons can use some specific functions and tends to be a bit polyfunctionnal, and the ammo can be used in different forms


Is the full realm is the best weay ?
Or
Is the semi realm and sci fi is the best way ?
Or
Is the full sci fi is the best way ?
Or
Are we forced to stay logic and allow us to use more special modes ?

Nathan2000
27th Jul 2008, 17:40
The question
Does an alternate fire mode or a weapon mode can use the same ammo in other forms ?
If its the ammo can have more than one function how far we can go with the ammo

I believe that in Deus Ex it's like that: you find bullets, you shoot bullets. You find grenades, you shoot grenades. Automatic ammo "transformations" only hurt immersion and must be avoided. Even when you explain it with nanotechnology or something, the players won't believe that it's something more than a game mechanism that simplifies the gameplay.

The whole idea of having the secondary fire "button" is stupid. Deus Ex 1 had a "change ammo" button and it was OK because it was exactly what I was doing. Changing ammo.

But in DXIW, which introduced the secondary fire, the "F" button was doing plenty of things. In a sniper rifle it was for looking through the scope, in an SMG it was shooting a grenade, in a pistol it was switching a flashlight on. Its real role was assigned by the game. Now notice lack of the word "game" in the previous paragraph. This is what immersion is all about.

Not to mention having the ability to attach a scope on every weapon I liked (not only those with fixed scopes). It was feeling so obvious that I can turn the pistol into "sniper rifle wannabe". I noticed, that the pistol was more accurate than the rifle on lower skill levels. It shook less.

jcp28
27th Jul 2008, 17:40
Soldiers. ;)

And if push comes to shove, never count out Americans to push back. Already had 2 revolutions as it was, due to the State getting out of hand. If the courts argued that firearms are illegal, ah, you can bet they'll be a 3rd revolution!

Civies will take martial law to an extent, but if it's extended, that's when they rebel. We're not Europe.

Actually, I agree there. A law banning firearms was one of the main reasons for the formation of the NSF in Deus Ex, according to a public terminal at UNATCO HQ.

Also, there would certainly be hell to pay if the government tried to take away our firearms for real.

Blade_hunter
27th Jul 2008, 20:27
Thank you Nathan you are one of the rare to give me an answer that links with the thread

And what do you think about for example about logical ammo transformation, a sort of transformation that keep the nature of the base projectile.

for example,
Rocket can be a Grenade
Grenade can be a Mine
Grenade can be a Bounce grenade
Explosive slug can be a Shotshell
A Plasma ball can be a Plasma ray



GEP gun (personal version)


Assault rifle (personal version)

Rocket rifle (personal version)

LAM (personal version)

Assault Plasma rifle (personal version)

Derringer pistol (personal version)

Take a look about these weapons

Why the assault rifle in DX sounds to work wrong to me, because in an assault rifle when you have two barrels (two cannons) with their own loaders, we never change the ammo, we change the weapon mode or have separate fire modes.

Personally I don't want to use bullets as grenades, because it sounds too illogical to me I agree with you to this point, but if we use grenades in impact or bounce mode it sounds to be more logical to me, or use a rocket in rocket or grenade mode, or use the LAM's with their old functions like grenade and proximity mine

I think if the ammo transformation is used we must keep a logic, the projectiles mustn't change their nature

AaronJ
27th Jul 2008, 20:50
The secondary ammo feature in DX1 was enough for me. But to be honest, during my first play of the game I hadn't noticed it until Vandenburg. I don't think it will be required.

Kevyne-Shandris
27th Jul 2008, 22:48
Thank you Nathan you are one of the rare to give me an answer that links with the thread

And what do you think about for example about logical ammo transformation, a sort of transformation that keep the nature of the base projectile.

for example,
Rocket can be a Grenade
Grenade can be a Mine
Grenade can be a Bounce grenade
Explosive slug can be a Shotshell
A Plasma ball can be a Plasma ray

Rockets can't be a grenades, or it would've been grenades. Same can be said of the rest. It's what it is, because it's isn't the other ammo.

Secondary fire can be an option, but shouldn't be a requirement (some addon). Playing sniper the addons would be more about ammo; scopes; sight adjustments and bipods, not adding a grenade launcher to the rifle.

Lo Bruto
27th Jul 2008, 23:52
Ah, you missed the GEP/Plasma, which took so many squares. This is more like the inventory looks...

http://home.comcast.net/~deus_ex_machina/dxf/Deus_Ex_Inventory.gif




Why the dt Sword is ON? I never understand why there isn't just the handle in the inventory screen...

Chemix
28th Jul 2008, 00:57
I thought the same, I think it was to attempt to balance it out by making it take up so much space.

AaronJ
28th Jul 2008, 01:23
I always was bugged because I couldn't ROTATE what was in my inventory.

Blade_hunter
29th Jul 2008, 10:50
In the inventory thread we have a suggestion about it ;)

About the ammo IRL the rocket can't be grenades and grenades can't become mines

In DX the LAM's can become mines
Why a rocket can't become a grenade or a bounce grenade can't become an impact grenade ?
In future we can got some special ammo like caseless ammo, a rocket / grenade ammo
I just want to follow what it was done in DX give some "logical" functions to ammo

The ammo functions must have some limits, but if we want a fully realistic FPS part, we've got no LAM's, no GEP gun, no plasma guns and no swords...
DX is semi realistic, not fully ....

TrickyVein
19th Aug 2008, 11:55
Why not give the player dueling pistols? How about strapping a pulserifle and a flamethrower together as Ripley does in Aliens?

And the dragonstooth reincarnation in DX2 was lame - I think we should see this weapon come back somehow (Course, it was new technology in DX1)

Personally, I'd love to see an extensive nonlethal inventory. Baton! Perhaps tranquilizer darts for the rifle? Shoot one of them into the neck of a guard, you've got silent nonlethal taken from a mile away. I'd dig that.

And we mustn't forget about the limitless possibilities of using the surrounding environment to your advantage (think bond moves from 007). Consider: when you have no ammo and are too weak with melee, you can still throw ***** at people.

Noceur
20th Aug 2008, 01:06
I don't really like the idea of using more of the same ammo for a secondary fire, like an assault rifle shooting a grenade made out of several bullets.

Secondary fire like a grenade launcher attachment, using grenade ammo, I'm cool with though.

Different ammo is the way to go in my opinion. A grenade launcher could be used to fire gas grenades (or EMP, Spider-bot, Scramble, Smoke, Flashbang) for non-lethal players.

Anyway, secondary fire should make some realistic sense. A rocket launcher with grenades as secondary fire doesn't as much sense as a rocket launcher where you can guide the rocket (ala Deus Ex 2) if you use secondary fire, for example.

Blade_Hunter: "In DX the LAM's can become mines"... well, it's just an explosive device. A rocket becoming a grenade seems rather far-fetched to me, although just like the LAM a grenade (fired from a launcher) could be programmable to either detonate by timer or impact (proximity might be tough, unless the proximity detection starts after impact or something).

Blade_hunter
20th Aug 2008, 16:19
Yes the LAM is just an explosive device, like the GEP gun is an explosive projectile launcher.
IRL the weapons have only one function per ammo (I exclude the select fire weapons)

Staying in a realistic way but not fully DX weapons are plausible, and I agree with you make grenades by using several bullets isn't plausible

About the rockets that can become grenades it's a bit arcady, but it's more realistic than bullets that can be used to be a grenade.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6922/sanstitrebr8.jpg
The only realistic example I have is this, or the gunman rocket launcher
On the right we have the rocket, on the left the grenade, fired from the same launcher, in many other games when they use this feature the projectile is completely different but this is the more plausible dual function projectile.

We can imagine plausible mechanisms, of course if we have many RL the grenade option isn't available for all, a RL with a grenade option makes the weapon tactical, like a plasma rifle with a ray option.

But it depends how much futuristic the game will be....

DX is a semi realistic game with semi realistic weapons and some stuff, I think it must stay on the way of its previous game (DX 1), I only say the way, not say exactly like DX 1. I say that to avoid confusions.

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 09:09
No one give me any answer about it.

the only multi-function ammo I know of are multi-purpose rounds that do many things at the same time and air burst rounds with selectable modes.

multifunction ammo is sci-fi.

now multi barrel weapons are good. no changing clips.

sushi159
26th Oct 2008, 16:44
Dunno, I can see it sounds cool that you're quoting 2ndary fire from UT and it might work in DX3 in some cases since they are both set in the future, but I think DX3 should be more realistic and believable. I think DX3's weapons should be based on modern real life weapons but with some innovation and improvements. This isn't a turbo-paced, run-n-gun deathmatch FPS.

spm1138
26th Oct 2008, 17:48
Guh.

I don't like everything having to have a secondary fire mode.

UGLs I'd like to be a separate firemode.

I would like different ammo types and underbarrel launchers for some of the weapons because that should be an advantage for some of the weapons - launchers with teargas, electroshock, canister, plastic bullets, cameras etc. / shotguns with beanbags, CS rounds, door breaching rounds.

There I think you'd introduce versatility or lack thereof as an element of weapon balance.

I wouldn't even necessarily mind some of the weapons being "smart" and having configurable settings but every weapon having to have a fairly random right click seems a bit too UT for me and not really in keeping with the setting.

Some things should be simple.

I know it's the future and all but if you look at the stuff DX3 looks like referencing (including DX the first) the weapons tend to be fairly low tech and gritty with a minimum of Star Trek stuff.

mouse
26th Oct 2008, 19:45
Anybody mentioned Splinter Cell yet? I liked the non-lethal capabilities of the protagonist: knock out or grab from behind, sticky shocker and that stun ammo... I forgot the name