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View Full Version : If Sheldon Pacotti isn't involved DE3 will invariably suck



Dioxin2
5th Jul 2008, 11:18
Sheldon Pacotti is the lead writer for both DE1 and DE2. He is not only responsible for the basic narrative but also created the many philosophical topics of discussion in the games.

Most of IO is no longer involved in DE3 and it is still unknown if SP is on board as writer. The most important aspect that elevated DE to greatness was the deep philosophy that Pacotti injected.

I doubt Edios will be able to find another video game writer with such knowledge in the realm of philosophy and if Pancotti is not involved with the storyline of DE3 I'm afraid we will have another dumbed down FPS game where the plot serves as nothing more than entertaining filler inbetween gameplay segments.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Jul 2008, 11:28
I'm hoping that the narrative will be up-to-scratch and deeply philosophical too.
It HAS to be - otherwise it wouldn't work. :)

I don't think the game will necessarily suck without Pacotti himself, but it obviously will if his successor isn't as knowledgeable. I can only assume that Eidos will only employ the 'right person' for this very important task. :cool:

Hope so anyway...

Tsumaru
5th Jul 2008, 11:52
I like the assumption that only a small few people in the game industry can possibly make a good game.

"If not Warren Spector..."
"If not Sheldon Pacotti..."
"If not The Stig..."


Do any of you people watch Top Gear? God I love that show.

Dioxin2
5th Jul 2008, 12:36
I like the assumption that only a small few people in the game industry can possibly make a good game.

"If not Warren Spector..."
"If not Sheldon Pacotti..."
"If not The Stig..."


Do any of you people watch Top Gear? God I love that show.

At the risk of coming off as pretentious I have to say that there are much fewer game writers who are knowledgable in philosophy and social studies than there are good game designers.

There are many great video game designers. There is a solid chance that a competent designer will be at the helm of DE3, especially considering how fickle the DE fanbase is.

However very few games and game writers have meaningfully addressed complex philosophical/social or political issues in their games. Pacotti is one of a handful who have done so and without him I think Edios would be hard pressed finding a video game writer who is not only a great writer but also knowledgable and invested in dealing with thought provoking material in their writing.

I mean the DE3 trailer has a sign that says 'We do not welcome augmented people here'. That's plain horrible writing, it's not even proper English for Christs sake leading me to wonder if Pacotti (or any decent English writer for that matter) is involved in this project.

Nathan2000
5th Jul 2008, 13:05
leading me to wonder if Pacotti (or any decent English writer for that matter) is involved in this project.

If it has any relevance, the writer for Deus Ex 3 is Mary Demarle (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/401/332), who worked on Myst III, Homeworld II and Myst IV. She won some prizes for her work.


I mean the DE3 trailer has a sign that says 'We do not welcome augmented people here'. That's plain horrible writing, it's not even proper English for Christs sake

Not every business owner is required to speak Literary English.

AaronJ
5th Jul 2008, 13:43
Sheldon Pacotti should be given time to pursue an amazing movie career.

Psychopomp
5th Jul 2008, 13:56
If it has any relevance, the writer for Deus Ex 3 is Mary Demarle (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/401/332), who worked on Myst III, Homeworld II and Myst IV. She won some prizes for her work.



Not every business owner is required to speak Literary English.

Listen to this man, for he speaks the truth.

Mary=Good writer.

Business sign=Have you read some of the signs from the time of segregation?

Dioxin2
5th Jul 2008, 14:05
Listen to this man, for he speaks the truth.

Mary=Good writer.

Business sign=Have you read some of the signs from the time of segregation?

She may be a good writer but I don't think either of the games attributed to her had any philosophical relevance or meandering. (Like the one between Alex and JC in IW) and I am doubtful she can pull it off. It would suck if she simply opened a few thematically relevant philosophy books and copied some of the generalizations into the game rather than go truly in deph into unique territories of the subject matter like DE1 and 2 did. Or she might not even try at all which would such even more.

Psychopomp
5th Jul 2008, 14:21
Well, we'll know when Deus Ex 3 comes out.
For the time being, they're many, MANY far worse choices, and very few that would be better.

Besides, the "Augmented people Not Allowed" thing gave me hope.
At least we know the games now going with a theme like that of Halo or the such.

Coliphorbs
5th Jul 2008, 14:38
God, I hope that Sheldon guy doesn't come back to inflict upon us the horrors he had with IW.

AaronJ
5th Jul 2008, 15:09
The storyline was not the problem with IWar.

jamesthefishy
5th Jul 2008, 17:35
God, I hope that Sheldon guy doesn't come back to inflict upon us the horrors he had with IW.

Storeline was good in IW it was the game play + game shortness that was the problem.

Kevyne-Shandris
5th Jul 2008, 17:41
If it has any relevance, the writer for Deus Ex 3 is Mary Demarle (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/401/332), who worked on Myst III, Homeworld II and Myst IV. She won some prizes for her work.

Nice, not only a WOMAN in this male top heavy industry, a studio taking NARRATIVES seriously. Now just need more women programmers, and in leadership positions (not just the art+design department -- reminds me of the military: women as nurses; women as secretaries; women in communications. Then folks wonder why women don't take up tech, when it's been barred for the longest time, not only in hands on training, access. 21st century and we're STILL in this rut of limiting access via gender).



Not every business owner is required to speak Literary English.

That sign in question was suppose to be written badly. It's suppose to highlight the ignorance of those who are racists/bigots. It also mimics history -- be it in the South during segregation; to the West with the racism/bigotry towards Asians. The KKK and Neo-Nazis aren't graduating rocket scientists afterall!

Lo Bruto
5th Jul 2008, 17:52
I have confidence in the writer, since I think that he/she will put at least a level of philosophy in the game, maybe not as deep as the previous games. You know, by the teaser (I know, the teaser was made to tease us :nut: ) we are allowed to capture some of the game own essence. For example, instead of showing a the so called fetus alone, it show concerns about discrimination of augmented people and an influence from anatomic studies, transhumanism and other things that I really can't remember now. :whistle:

And I don't think all this stuff was just put randomly in the teaser...
For me, the bigger picture of the theme/philosophy of the game will be the augmentation discrimination stuff. When a human being augment his body, for whatever reason, he's still can be called a human?
If the game follow the teaser teasing :D , it will be nice.

Coliphorbs
5th Jul 2008, 18:29
The storyline was not the problem with IWar.

I beg to differ - I think it was THE problem with IW. Crappy gameplay is one thing, completely butchering the setting is another.

AaronJ
5th Jul 2008, 18:39
To each his own.

Tsumaru
6th Jul 2008, 00:58
I dunno about you guys, but I never thought the first Deus Ex had a whole lot of philosophy in it. It was there to a degree, but I'm not seeing it as much as some people are. Invisible War did - that touch of political philosophy was certainly quite prevalent. But I think the overruling themes of the DX games are meant to be that of conspiracies as opposed to philosophies. IW had a bit less conspiracy, but they did try to keep it in there to some degree. But yeah, I don't think we need a philosophy major to be writing DX3 considering the nature of DX1. Just a good writer.

jcp28
6th Jul 2008, 02:01
Honestly, I don't think the game sucking will necessarily have much to do with the writing. Like Tsumaru says, we don't need a philisophy-heavy writer to make a halfway decent story. So we should just sit back and hope for the best. If it sucks, it'll probably have at least as much to do with sloppy design decisions as a hackneyed story.

Kevyne-Shandris
6th Jul 2008, 02:23
If it sucks, it'll probably have at least as much to do with sloppy design decisions as a hackneyed story.

F.E.A.R. III. Now that would suck.

Don't care what's in DX3, as long as it's true to DX. That JC is JC (not a metrosexual with swinging shoulders looking like he didn't even want to be there; or looking like Count Dracula -- only thing that was missing was fangs in DX:IW!); that the game world looks cyberpunk and has that tech feel; that the characters aren't killed off, especially like in F.E.A.R.'s Extraction Point -- that would piss me the most!!).

Just bring back the world, much like Oblivion did to Morrowind.

HouseOfPain
6th Jul 2008, 02:51
Scadvid :P

whats up with you and bringing up FEAR? Should I get this game?

Kevyne-Shandris
6th Jul 2008, 04:33
Scadvid :P

whats up with you and bringing up FEAR? Should I get this game?

Devs copy from other games and get ideas from them for "inspiration". F.E.A.R. is a newer FPS game with all of the cinematics (with actual Hollywood studio help) and high production values. BUT, it's SP is basically a horror story with some spooks (which the devs readily admit they ripped from the Japanese horror flicks like the Grudge and The Ring). It's game is really a MP Quake/UT knockoff. The game concentrates on graphics first, fighting second and story last. It is NOT the direction DX3 should go, no matter how tempting to make a game that showy. It's a WARNING.

Set design is fantastic though. It's a game if you're into modding, you'd want to get, as you get to see some v-e-r-y high end production values. Plus, the SDK editors are the best I've seen released for a game (except for the animation exporter/importer -- REALLY need to fix this across the board in gaming -- BUT, despite not having the ability to tweak much with the animations with their exporter/importer, a modder can at least merge/reduce/key individual frames from existing models in their model editor -- there's like 5 editors [and they don't crash!]). Took me but a couple of hours learning the interface and about 2 tuts (they even included videos to help -- HINT, HINT), and I was in making my own objects and experimenting with FX.

F.E.A.R. is the game that hardened my love for DX -- for "seeing" all that's missing in a good game. Before I thought graphics and animations were more important. Afterwards learned that no matter how flashy a game can be, if the story is horrid there's not much fun in playing it -- and especially how they killed off everyone but the pointman and one other character, in such a way you really can get turned off of that approach.

Get it if you're into modding, don't get it if you want a DX experience.

Edx
7th Jul 2008, 12:34
I mean the DE3 trailer has a sign that says 'We do not welcome augmented people here'. That's plain horrible writing, it's not even proper English for Christs sake leading me to wonder if Pacotti (or any decent English writer for that matter) is involved in this project.

Eh?? Thats the dumbest criticism Ive read in a while! :lol:

gamer0004
7th Jul 2008, 15:42
I like the assumption that only a small few people in the game industry can possibly make a good game.

"If not Warren Spector..."
"If not Sheldon Pacotti..."
"If not The Stig..."


Do any of you people watch Top Gear? God I love that show.

Yeah it's awesome!

@OP: as Sheldon Pacotti totally screwed up the storyline of DX:IW, I say: no, never mind. Just get another writer.

phlebas
7th Jul 2008, 16:12
Although I would personally prefer to see Sheldon Pacotti on the DX3 team, I do not think it is an absolute requirement in making DX3 a great game. The real problem would be pushing the development team to pay attention to good writing and well-thought out settings within the game world... And of course, some thought-provoking stuff which put the previous two DX games (yes. Even the invisible war) apart from so many FPS-like games on the market during their days.

I would think that the development team is already well aware of the need for good writing in games though. They will need to think of a way to best integrate the good writing to the game technology itself, however.

I am expecting to see some heavy use of terminal-like interfaces within the game world, although it is possible that the development team would be able to come up with something even more ingenious.

iWait
8th Jul 2008, 07:07
@ Dioxin2

The story line is already written. Go QQ about the story line when you actually read it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The story line in DX:IW was good, though implemented poorly.
(lolz luk i evn hav math to prve it,
Illuminati+AI+Transhumanism=EpicWin
Plot holes+Dead Japanese Girls+Ghosts≠EpicWin

Top Gear is awesome.

The widow's son
8th Jul 2008, 13:36
I think for me the conspiracies and their link to our own reality were what made DX1 great. One of the greatest moments was when you walk into the free clinic in hell's kitchen and the bum asks "who will help the widow's son?". That this was allegedly a free mason greeting made the game feel alive. It was totally awesome. Another moment was entering the illuminati compound and speaking to the AI Morpheus and Lucius de Beers. Very thought provoking.

IW felt like they borrowed random stuff from DX1 and then just destroyed it. One example was sending the warning signal to silhouette in france so they would go into hiding in the paris catacombs. You go to all that trouble to help Chad to further the fight for liberty. And then comes IW and Chad says: "It turns out we only liked hearing the sound of our own voices," completely obliterating everything built during DX1.

It was like they took a lot of characters from the original and adopted a "lets make them wear funny hats" mentality. Paul Denton and Tracer Tong just felt kind of superfluous. I felt the same about Pirates of the caribbean 2 stealing a lot of jokes from the original. Buuuut maybe I'm just full of crap :P

jordan_a
8th Jul 2008, 17:37
If it has any relevance, the writer for Deus Ex 3 is Mary Demarle (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/401/332)
Good to hear, I'm sure she'll be fine. Thanks for the info.

Necros
14th Jul 2008, 10:28
@OP: as Sheldon Pacotti totally screwed up the storyline of DX:IW, I say: no, never mind. Just get another writer.
:rolleyes: Sorry but I think that's BS. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Sheldon Pacotti is with Warren Spector now at Junction Point Studios. http://www.junctionpoint.com/jps/team.html#pacotti I hope they'll tell us soon what they are working on. :cool:

And yeah, I also think Mary Demarle will do a great job! :thumbsup:

gamer0004
14th Jul 2008, 14:27
:rolleyes: Sorry but I think that's BS. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Okay, np. But someone who was good doesn't have to be good the second (look at DX:IW) or third time around. And why would you need to have exactly the same writer?

Tsumaru
15th Jul 2008, 00:49
So, now that we know Sheldon Pacotti isn't involved...

How are you guys feeling about DX3 invariably going to suck?

gamer0004
15th Jul 2008, 15:18
So, now that we know Sheldon Pacotti isn't involved...

How are you guys feeling about DX3 invariably going to suck?

I don't think it will. They aren't going to make the same mistakes as with DX:IW. Of course it is possible that they are going to screw it in a different way, but so far (interviews, teaser) it looks good.

Psychopomp
20th Jul 2008, 18:24
John Stalvern waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were demons in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to Cernel Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a space marine for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the spaceships and he said to dad "I want to be on the ships daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the space station base of the UAC he knew there were demons.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "You must fight the demons!"
So John gotted his palsma rifle and blew up the wall.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the demons
"I will shoot at him" said the cyberdemon and he fired the rocket missiles. John plasmaed at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the demons" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the demons"
And then John was a zombie.


------

As long as the writing is better than that I'm happy.

Also, I LOL'D SO ******* HARD!

iWait
20th Jul 2008, 19:36
Sounds like Halo.

jcp28
20th Jul 2008, 20:37
No, it's Doom. That's where "UAC" comes from. Not to mention that Halo had quitea bit more of a story, even though I heard some people didn't like it. I know the main character in Halo was called "John" but otherwise....

Psychopomp
21st Jul 2008, 05:19
Better yet, read anything by Squirrelking

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1047027/squirrelking

Tsumaru
21st Jul 2008, 14:14
You shouldn't make fun of disabled people, psychopomp. It's not nice.





Wait... you're saying a perfectly healthy average Joe wrote that?!?!?

CarloGervasi
21st Jul 2008, 15:36
Sheldon did a wonderful job on the first game, but apparently was involved with the abortion of a story in the second one as well, so I'm not sure how missed his influence will really be.

iWait
21st Jul 2008, 19:50
Oh it's Doom, I forgot most of that story line. But if you think about it it can apply to the Captain of the Autumn in Halo.

SubTonic20
22nd Jul 2008, 13:51
Deus Ex: The first time in history when I actually showed some interest in politics. That alone is a miracle in itself. I really hope they bring that interest back. DX2 rather ruined it for me.

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 21:07
Having bought pc zone yesterday, read through it a couple of times, Im liking most of what I see. Its clear Eidos do want a game much closer to the first one.

‘’As you travel around the world looking to track down the killers and discover their motivations, you begin to uncover layers of conspiracy that go far beyond just the attack on your company’’ explains (Lead writer Mary De Marle) ‘’You’ll find other conspiracy groups that have agendas and you’ll have to find out who these people are and what they are after. As Jensen gets further into the story he finds he has to make a stand and make decisions on what he believes to be right.’’

‘’Deus Ex 3 is all about making choices, who to trust, how to act, who to kill and who to save’’ she promises. ‘’There’ll be multiple endings that reflect your choices and the story will react to your decisions.’’

This sounds very promising. Multiple endings and a game that reacts to your choices, just what we asked for – so long as some of those choices include an emotional struggle, a moral dilemma, the sort that twists your gut and then some.

New! Writer (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=77956&highlight=MYST) (title has to change though).

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 12:06
Listen to this man, for he speaks the truth.

Mary=Good writer.

Business sign=Have you read some of the signs from the time of segregation?

some copy paste

Born in Rochester, USA
Syracuse University
BS, Television, Radio, and Film Production, 1984 — 1987

*Graduated in 3 years with a 3.9 GPA on a 4.0 scale - smart over achiever :D
*Minored in Psychology - Psychology would be the winner.:D :D

(DeMarle believes that the industry has to rethink how it builds its links between story and interactive experiences, and follow Ubisoft's lead: "Really, what's needed in the industry is a position we call narrative designer, where you're working as the game designer and also bridging the gap between story and game design.")

Story-centric start-up

Of course, Eidos is a very well-known company in the world, and it works on great titles, many of which are very story-centric. Also important was the fact that a new studio was just starting in Montreal, which is a city I love. I've been in the game industry for over ten years and the most exciting companies I've worked with were the ones that were small and just starting to grow, because a lot of really cool challenges come with building a company.

Many hats

Like the fact of working with limited resources on a big vision: limited resources usually mean you don't have enough people to work it. This allows many of the people to wear many hats and to have more to say on the product they're working on, and to bring more to it. When you have [very large teams], people tend to get slotted in particular tasks, and even though that may be their forte, they have other, very important skills that may be overlooked. Here, they want to limit the size of the teams.

Of writers and sharing ideas on smaller teams

As a writer, I think I have one of the most misunderstood jobs in the industry, because people think of the writer as, "You just put the words down on the page". In a small team, however, the writer becomes very integral [to the process] and actually helps shape the ideas and directions of things. I think sharing ideas - being more collaborative - works better in small groups, where voices can be heard. [If people aren't open to ideas from other areas], it can definitely be a problem. I think it's always a difficult balance to maintain: you have to be willing to hear the ideas of others, and you also have to be willing to accept when your own ideas are not being heard. You're more likely to realize that you can have a voice, but you are also able to keep the personal communication going, to understand why your ideas may not work. I think it's easier to understand that in a small group.

Longer development times

The complexity of the story is based on the type of the game you're dealing with. Many games just need a very simple story line, and many need a very complex and deep one. When you have shorter periods of time, you have to scale down your story and your design ideas. It obviously takes much longer to develop a deep and complex story, and since the game we're working on is going to be a very deep story, having a longer development time ensures not only being able to do it but being able to get it right.

Third Deus Ex

When I played the first game, I realized that so much of it is centered on the story that it automatically calls for a deep and interesting story line, and that was a big reason for me to want to be here and to work on it. Another reason is the fact that [Eidos] games are very well recognized, and have built a loyal fan base. The development team saw opportunities to expand those games beyond their initial focus, and that's always a very interesting challenge: to create another version of something that is much loved, [a version] that will grow beyond it without upsetting the people who love it, and yet will be interesting to people who may not have liked it or may never have heard of it.

Mary=Good writer!!!! I'm not just saying that because she's from my home town err :whistle: well maybe but anybody from Rochester can understand crime and skrewed up people.
Trust me on that.:lol:

sign ideas

"Aug's = Monsters" "No Monsters aloud"(intentional misspelling):D


AUGMENTED in ASCII
A=65 U=85 G=71 M=77 E=69 N=78 T=84 E=69 D=68
65+85+71+77+69+78+84+69+68=666
AUGMENTED is the sign of the beast.. The end times are near.
:lol:
Abram=good researcher:cool:

Bluey71
26th Oct 2008, 12:27
Third Deus Ex

When I played the first game, I realized that so much of it is centered on the story that it automatically calls for a deep and interesting story line, and that was a big reason for me to want to be here and to work on it. Another reason is the fact that [Eidos] games are very well recognized, and have built a loyal fan base. The development team saw opportunities to expand those games beyond their initial focus, and that's always a very interesting challenge: to create another version of something that is much loved, [a version] that will grow beyond it without upsetting the people who love it, and yet will be interesting to people who may not have liked it or may never have heard of it.

I like the way this lady thinks.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th Oct 2008, 12:37
I like the way this lady thinks.

Yes, me too. :)

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 13:58
I think for me the conspiracies and their link to our own reality were what made DX1 great. One of the greatest moments was when you walk into the free clinic in hell's kitchen and the bum asks "who will help the widow's son?". That this was allegedly a free mason greeting made the game feel alive. It was totally awesome. Another moment was entering the illuminati compound and speaking to the AI Morpheus and Lucius de Beers. Very thought provoking.

IW felt like they borrowed random stuff from DX1 and then just destroyed it. One example was sending the warning signal to silhouette in france so they would go into hiding in the paris catacombs. You go to all that trouble to help Chad to further the fight for liberty. And then comes IW and Chad says: "It turns out we only liked hearing the sound of our own voices," completely obliterating everything built during DX1.

It was like they took a lot of characters from the original and adopted a "lets make them wear funny hats" mentality. Paul Denton and Tracer Tong just felt kind of superfluous. I felt the same about Pirates of the caribbean 2 stealing a lot of jokes from the original. Buuuut maybe I'm just full of crap :P

My Grand father was a Widow's son and worked 3 jobs to support the family threw the depression.. I'm quite sure the Masons that payed his way threw college where he met his wife. He ended up worked for Raytheon till he retired. The kind of man that drove 30 minuets back to a store to return 15 cents and helped people his whole life without ever asking for help. He died chopping wood late into his years. He was a Mason from a Protestant Family. I'm not sure about a greeting but I know service for community is part of it.

Isaiah 1

Ah, sinful nation..

6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness—only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.
11 "The multitude of your sacrifices—what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood;
16 wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right! Seek justice, rebuke the oppressor. Defend the cause of the fatherless,plead the case of the widow.

23 Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them.

sushi159
26th Oct 2008, 16:36
I never heard of this guy before but if he is such a good writer than I trust he will help make DX3 achieve greatness.

Flobulon
26th Oct 2008, 22:17
I'm quoting this from a certain pc gaming magazine in the UK:

"The Eidos guys have, at least, enlisted Deus Ex's writer Sheldon Pacotti as a story consultant, and he's now worked on and approved their script."

Interesting.

Abram730
28th Oct 2008, 08:26
God, I hope that Sheldon guy doesn't come back to inflict upon us the horrors he had with IW.
Sheldon wrote and so did Austin Grossman.


Malign Hypercognition Disorder, the evil genius. In guessing what motivates people to want to rule the world there are places to start.