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iWait
3rd Jul 2008, 02:22
Well I've been playing through Deus Ex recently and I found a data-cube that says both Paul and JC are albino.... Most of you probably know this but I completely forgot. It also says that he has to wear the sunglasses and dark clothes because of this fact.

But why didn't Alex Denton wear sunglasses and dark clothes? If I remember correctly Alex wore a blue-ish leather shirt and had no sunglasses.

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 02:40
Well I've been playing through Deus Ex recently and I found a data-cube that says both Paul and JC are albino.... Most of you probably know this but I completely forgot. It also says that he has to wear the sunglasses and dark clothes because of this fact.

But why didn't Alex Denton wear sunglasses and dark clothes? If I remember correctly Alex wore a blue-ish leather shirt and had no sunglasses.

It's if you play JC as an albino.

And later on you'll find there's a cure, too.

Tsumaru
3rd Jul 2008, 03:21
I have no recollection of this fact. Especially considering JC was clearly not albino when I played him.

gamer0004
3rd Jul 2008, 07:30
Hmm. I knew that the series P agents were albinos, not that JC was one. They mentioned the P albinism like it was some strange occurance which was new to the researchers, which would mean that JC wouldn't have been an albino. Or would mean that the game is a bit inconsisent on that point.
Could you please write down the datacube text here?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
3rd Jul 2008, 08:38
Yeah, I would like to see what the datacube text said. Interesting. :)

Nathan2000
3rd Jul 2008, 09:02
PROSPECTUS: SERIES P AGENTS proposal by Dr. Arthur Donovan (VersaLife/HK)

The Series P agents are the logical continuation of research resulting from the Series N: the development of a human agent with enhanced capabilities and absolute loyalty, but without the non-standard appearance of mechanical augmentation or the unpredictability of nano-augmentation. Like the Series N, the strength and speed of the Series P should be substantially above baseline while new conditioning techniques will result in minimal pain response. We conservatively predict a Series P agent would be 78% more effective in combat than a normal operative without any form of augmentation. Key features from the Series N agent will also be carried over, including the self-termination mechanism. An ingenious variation on the "kill-switch," the self-termination mechanism is wired into the autonomous nervous system of an agent. If mortally wounded, the mechanism will activate and explode, eliminating any evidence of the agent and damaging nearby hostiles. However, we are still continuing in our attempts to isolate the source of the albino traits present ever since the Series L, but so far the simple addition of sunglasses and dark clothing appear to have resolved the matter in a practical fashion...
Is this the datacube you meant? It's about MiBs and WiBs. There's nothing here about nanoaugmented agents.


And later on you'll find there's a cure, too.
Erm... what?

Lo Bruto
3rd Jul 2008, 09:29
Yep. Series P are about MIB.
And no. JC in the canon is not albino. Only if you choose his skin to be at the start of the game.

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 10:04
Erm... what?

It's another message you'll find later on in game.

Read everything!

iWait
3rd Jul 2008, 10:58
The dark sunglasses and clothing threw me of.
But if he's not albino why does he always wear them, even in the dark?

Tsumaru
3rd Jul 2008, 11:51
The shiny blue eyes can be a dead giveaway of weirdness; not good if he wants to chat anyone up on the streets for info. They'd get scared and run away. As such he hides it with the sunnies. And it's no matter at night time - after all "[his] vision is augmented" as he says on the first level to Navarre. As for the jacket - well, nobody said fashion was a crime.


And why exactly would dark clothing be good/necessary for albinos? How would the colour of clothes affect anything? It's their SKIN which is the problem. White shirt, black shirt - there's still a shirt covering them.

minus0ne
3rd Jul 2008, 13:12
Is this the datacube you meant? It's about MiBs and WiBs. There's nothing here about nanoaugmented agents.
Yes there is, it's staring you in the face - the datacube mentions that the albino traits were present since the series L, continuing in the series N (nanotech, like JC and Paul) through to the series P (Physio-pharmaceutical, MiBs/WiBs).

It's another message you'll find later on in game.

Read everything!
I have, and I don't recall any such thing. The only "cure" mentioned is sunglasses :p

BTW If anyone's still not convinced JC and Paul have "albino traits" (not the same as being albino) regardless of which appearance you choose then just load any game and go into a conversation and you'll see JC's glowing eyes (same for Paul, only more obvious as he doesn't wear shades). That's the trait they're referring to I believe.

gamer0004
3rd Jul 2008, 15:35
Who are the series L?

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 15:51
I have, and I don't recall any such thing. The only "cure" mentioned is sunglasses :p

Nope. There is a cure mentioned, later in the game.

Read. Read. Read (and not just the wiki). ;)

Nathan2000
3rd Jul 2008, 16:53
Yes there is, it's staring you in the face - the datacube mentions that the albino traits were present since the series L, continuing in the series N (nanotech, like JC and Paul) through to the series P (Physio-pharmaceutical, MiBs/WiBs).

The thing is, that Series N agents have nothing to do with nanotech augmentation (see http://theosek.sitesled.com/seriesp.html for detail). N and L are simply older versions of MiB, probably already retired.


BTW If anyone's still not convinced JC and Paul have "albino traits" (not the same as being albino) regardless of which appearance you choose then just load any game and go into a conversation and you'll see JC's glowing eyes (same for Paul, only more obvious as he doesn't wear shades). That's the trait they're referring to I believe.

It's interesting, but I would never link "solid blue eyes" (as expressed in the wanted notice) with albinism.


Nope. There is a cure mentioned, later in the game.

Older Bum: It won't help. There is no cure.

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 16:55
That's for the virus (which also had a cure).

Keep searching!

Nathan2000
3rd Jul 2008, 17:10
That's for the virus (which also had a cure).

Keep searching!


Walton Simons: There's only one cure, you know, once you have the disease.

:rasp:

More seriously, why don't you post the evidence for that?

jamesthefishy
3rd Jul 2008, 19:15
And why exactly would dark clothing be good/necessary for albinos? How would the colour of clothes affect anything? It's their SKIN which is the problem. White shirt, black shirt - there's still a shirt covering them.

Darker clothes don't let the sun in or out. Thats why people wear black when its cold and raining, not cause of the depression of weather.... Same thing with lighter clothes and the sun.

"Quote:
Walton Simons: There's only one cure, you know, once you have the disease."
First - WALTER not ton
Second - He says that in the regular game too so it can't be about albinoism.

imported_van_HellSing
3rd Jul 2008, 19:43
First - WALTER not ton

You deserve to be interrogated via a shotgun for that. It's Walton indeed.

jamesthefishy
3rd Jul 2008, 19:59
You deserve to be interrogated via a shotgun for that. It's Walton indeed.
Erm I guess no one got my Walter Simmons joke?

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 21:54
:rasp:

More seriously, why don't you post the evidence for that?

It's called running around town to get stuff for a BBQ, and just getting in now (hate shopping on holidays, wall-to-wall shoppers!). That's why. And I won't have time now anyway, as the grill has to be prepared. This isn't a turn on the gas and ignite thingie, this is doing a slow Southern pit BBQ, and getting all the fixings done.

Two racks of beef ribs; one rack of pork ribs; 4 Cornish hens (all need marinating tonight); still debating on the 15lb Boston butt for hash; 16 sausages; rice (if for the hash); baked sweet potatoes; 15lbs of potato salad; cucumber salad; 5lbs of macroni salad (to hot for mac+cheese); 5qts collards; 3qts cole slaw; cater sized peach cobbler and banana pudding (turkey pan sized); and gallons of iced tea.

I'LL BE BUSY!! :lol:

HouseOfPain
3rd Jul 2008, 22:27
I'm currently playing through again with J.C. as an albino =P

Tsumaru
4th Jul 2008, 00:35
Darker clothes don't let the sun in or out. Thats why people wear black when its cold and raining, not cause of the depression of weather.... Same thing with lighter clothes and the sun.

Yeah, um, no. Colour affects absorbtion or reflection - which is why you will notice, for example, black cars become a lot hotter than white cars. But colour doesn't mysteriously give more physical blockage to UV rays - that is related to the weave of the fabric. If I get a black leather trenchcoat and bleach it, the sun won't mysteriously have more penetration.

And if dark clothes "keep the sun out" - wouldn't you wear light clothes when it's cold and raining? So that the sun which IS out, can GET IN and warm you up? That makes more sense to me. Otherwise it would be like carrying around an umbrella to block you from the sun and warmth on a cold day. Sounds stupid. o_O

HouseOfPain
4th Jul 2008, 01:25
Ok ok, I will settle this.

Black absorbs light. Black will get hotter.

White REFLECTS light. Light will NOT get hotter, which does not necessarily mean it will get colder, just not hotter.:rolleyes:

Tsumaru
4th Jul 2008, 02:03
I concur.

MaxxQ1
4th Jul 2008, 02:52
Why not just ask the guy who wears a black uniform to work every day (ummmm....that would be ME!)?

Trust me, black gets MUCH hotter than lighter-colored clothes.

Romeo
4th Jul 2008, 04:38
HOLY CHRIST, IT'S OVER! Black is hot, white is not. God... lol

Kevyne-Shandris
4th Jul 2008, 05:26
Ok ok, I will settle this.

Black absorbs light. Black will get hotter.

White REFLECTS light. Light will NOT get hotter, which does not necessarily mean it will get colder, just not hotter.:rolleyes:

Somewhere in my lost files (after cleaning can't find anything now), there was a Nature article that actually argued the reverse. It used an example of Arab garb for an example. Puzzled me, as I thought black is hotter, too.

gamer0004
4th Jul 2008, 07:10
Ah, THATS'S why Arabs always wear white! They want to have it even warmer!
White skin, however, adsorbs light better than dark skin.

minus0ne
4th Jul 2008, 19:02
The thing is, that Series N agents have nothing to do with nanotech augmentation (see http://theosek.sitesled.com/seriesp.html for detail). N and L are simply older versions of MiB, probably already retired.
Congratulations, you're the 1000th person who's posted that! :lol:

edit: obviously not on this forum, jeez, is this the first DX forum you've visited?

However, that page just present a theory without any proof. If it weren't for the author's flawed reasoning - not only on that point I might add - I'd actually see it as a possibility. His entire theory for that rests on his faulty understanding of the following sentence:

The Series P Agents are the logical continuation of research resulting from the Series N: the development of a human agent with enhanced capabilities and absolute loyalty, but without the non-standard appearance of mechanical augmentation or the unpredictability of nano-augmentation.
"The Series P Agents" is the subject of the first sentence, followed by an apposition. It's "the logical continuation" of the Series N in the sense that it has the "enhanced capabilities and absolute loyalty" without the "drawbacks" of the previous (mechanical or nano-augmented) series. Hence, logical continuation.

If you read beyond just the first few paragraphs and 'theories' you'll see how far that author goes off-course in his assumptions, and you'll slowly get a sneaking suspicion it's written by a 12-year old with a limited vocabulary.

It's interesting, but I would never link "solid blue eyes" (as expressed in the wanted notice) with albinism.
Me neither, at first. Though it's pretty obvious this is what the devs are referring to when they say "albino traits" (again, not the same as albinism).

Furthermore, you could argue that when albinism is defined as a severe lack of pigments in not only the skin and hair, but also the eyes, it makes sense that JC and Paul's eyes could be "solid" blue (i.e. no pigmentation), with perhaps some of his visual nano-augmentation showing. For lack of a better term, the MJ12 scientists (/DX devs) dubbed this phenomenon "albino traits".


Nope. There is a cure mentioned, later in the game.

Read. Read. Read (and not just the wiki). ;)
I haven't come across this, and I've been pretty thorough on my numerous playthroughs. It'd be helpful if you could point us in the right direction of this mysterious datacube, like where approximately you think you've come across it. I don't know what wiki you're referring to, but DeusExText.u, which holds all in-game text, has no mention of it.

Kevyne-Shandris
4th Jul 2008, 19:26
Furthermore, you could argue that when albinism is defined as a severe lack of pigments in not only the skin and hair, but also the eyes, it makes sense that JC and Paul's eyes could be "solid" blue (i.e. no pigmentation)

Having blue colored irises means pigment still exists. A true albino would have pink eyes (iris and pupil), and those are extremely rare.

But pink anything in a FPS for a pointman is deadmeat, so for a game, even glowing blue eyes would have to do.

Nathan2000
4th Jul 2008, 20:19
Congratulations, you're the 1000th person who's posted that! :lol:

After doing a quick search through the forum, I believe, I'm the first one.

I posted the link to that site, because creating a complete analysis is a large piece of work. The theory, that nanoaugmented agents are the Series N have nothing to prove itself. Only assumptions taken for the in-game text so that it's not conflicting with the theory. I can provide you with plenty of proofs.


"The Series P Agents" is the subject of the first sentence, followed by an apposition. It's "the logical continuation" of the Series N in the sense that it has the "enhanced capabilities and absolute loyalty" without the "drawbacks" of the previous (mechanical or nano-augmented) series. Hence, logical continuation.
The subject of the later part of the sentence is "the research". The research resulting from Series N agents is described as "the development of..." and so on.


Like the Series N, the strength and speed of the Series P should be substantially above baseline while new conditioning techniques will result in minimal pain response.
That sentence states, that "new conditioning techniques" cause only "minimal pain response". However, just like Series N, the Series P have increased strength and speed. What causes that? Probably the same thing - old conditioning techniques - physiopharmaceutical augmentation.


Key features from the Series N agent will also be carried over, including the self-termination mechanism. An ingenious variation on the "kill-switch," the self-termination mechanism is wired into the autonomous nervous system of an agent. If mortally wounded, the mechanism will activate and explode
This sentence states, that Series N agents had a self-termination mechanism, which is an explosive equivalent of the kill-switch. The same is in the email from Arthur Donovan:

The modified explosive self-termination switch added in Series N has also proven highly effective in eliminating all traces of the Series P in the event that they are mortally wounded or otherwise unable to complete their mission objectives.
Series N agents have an explosive self-termination mechanism, which nanoaugmented agents lack. When JC dies, there is no boom.

In addition, i find it hard to believe, that the "brand new" nanoaugmentations, with only 3 users in the world, already have a succesor.

Nothing of that is hard evidence, I know, but when put together, it leads to clear conclusions.

minus0ne
4th Jul 2008, 22:11
After doing a quick search through the forum, I believe, I'm the first one.
I obviously didn't mean on this forum :rolleyes:

I posted the link to that site, because creating a complete analysis is a large piece of work. The theory, that nanoaugmented agents are the Series N have nothing to prove itself. Only assumptions taken for the in-game text so that it's not conflicting with the theory. I can provide you with plenty of proofs.
I'm not seeing any.


The subject of the later part of the sentence is "the research". The research resulting from Series N agents is described as "the development of..." and so on.
**** Back to school ye violator of grammar!


That sentence states, that "new conditioning techniques" cause only "minimal pain response". However, just like Series N, the Series P have increased strength and speed. What causes that? Probably the same thing - old conditioning techniques - physiopharmaceutical augmentation.
Proving..?

This sentence states, that Series N agents had a self-termination mechanism, which is an explosive equivalent of the kill-switch. The same is in the email from Arthur Donovan:

Series N agents have an explosive self-termination mechanism, which nanoaugmented agents lack. When JC dies, there is no boom.

But since JC and Paul are the only nano-augmented (series N) characters in the game there's no way to know (since you can't watch Paul die), and you're not around to see your own death (you'll see the load screen before you'll get to see an explosion, or perhaps the devs thought it'd be silly to see yourself explode before getting the load screen) there's no way to know. Add to that the fact JC and Paul were both prototype agents and it gets even murkier.


In addition, i find it hard to believe, that the "brand new" nanoaugmentations, with only 3 users in the world, already have a succesor.
Not a succesor. The series P agents have no augmentation or biomods, just increased strength, endurance and pain resistance. However they're dirt-cheap compared to $50bn prototypes like JC and Paul (which, in addition, didn't work out so well for MJ12), and presumable the drugs also make them more loyal/suggestible.

Nothing of that is hard evidence, I know, but when put together, it leads to clear conclusions.
When I put it together it leads me to a different conclusion, but some people just like to make things overcomplicated, I guess. To me, it's pretty straight-forward, and likely how the developers intended (after all, this is pretty damn trivial).

Series L = Mechanical augmentation (one can guess at the meaning of "L")
Series N = Nano-technological augmentation
Series P = Physio-pharmaceutical augmentation

Gary_Savage
4th Jul 2008, 22:21
Series L = Mechanical augmentation (one can guess at the meaning of "L")

L = Lazy! :rasp:

The engineers just got lazy, and decided to just chop off agents' arms and legs, initially, and just replace them with prosthetics.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Jul 2008, 22:33
^
LOL :D

Oooh, we can guess what the "L" might stand for?

How about "Loco-", as in " Locomotory". :D

Nathan2000
5th Jul 2008, 10:52
I obviously didn't mean on this forum

As if I cared about the other forums.:p And yes, this is the first international forum, I'm on. You can call me "virgin".


**** Back to school ye violator of grammar!

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/408/diagramig6.th.png (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=diagramig6.png)


When I put it together it leads me to a different conclusion, but some people just like to make things overcomplicated

What is overcomplicated? Is it that Series L, N and P are just different types of MiB or that JC and Paul have albino traits (we seek what the developers might have on mind) and explosive killswitch ("we can't really check out if they have any")?


But since JC and Paul are the only nano-augmented (series N) characters in the game there's no way to know (since you can't watch Paul die), and you're not around to see your own death.

All right, let's presume, that nanotech agents explode upon death. I kill Walton Simons and... oops... But if Paul dies, he... Waita minute, we can see his dead body in the MJ12 lab. Well, I'm sure we can find a reasonable explanation.

Nevermind, let's say that Paul and Walton are only prototypes and have no self-termination mechanism. But if so, there are no nanotech agents WITH that mechanism and what Arthur Donovan says (that STM is one of the Series N key features) is nonsense.

The conclusion I was talking about is that whoever wrote that datacube had no idea that Series N may be associated with nanotech augmentations. If you make dozens of assumptions, you can ultimately fit that theory to the sources, but when you ask yourself a question: "did the developers really thought about all of that?", you'll start to doubt.

Tsumaru
5th Jul 2008, 11:50
I've been off the DX3 forums for... I dunno, two days (I got distracted by Diablo 3 forums). Anyway, I kinda lost track of where this thread was going, and only skimmed the last possible posts. All I have to say on the matter is that blue eyes are not "albino traits". If we suggest that the eyes are pigment-less and the blue is just from visual augmentation, that would still only be "one albino trait". Not plural.

Arr, who be now the grammar violationer?

Lo Bruto
5th Jul 2008, 18:14
Series N has nothing to do with Paul and JC. It's just a older MIB version.

"The most common misconception about W/MIBs is that Series N agents are the nanotech agents like JC and Paul, Series L agents and mechanically augmented agents like Gunther and Anna and Series P agents are physiopharmaceutical augmented agents also known as W/MIBs. The logic behind this being: N stands for nanotech and P stands for physiopharmaceutical. I suppose Series L being mechanical is just a logical attempt at filling in the gap. But however, this is all wrong.

In-game text: "The Series P Agents are the logical continuation of research resulting from the Series N: the development of a human agent with enhanced capabilities and absolute loyalty, but without the non-standard appearance of mechanical augmentation or the unpredictability of nano-augmentation."

Read this part carefully paying close attiention to the use of the words "without" and "nano-augmentation". Series N agents are simply an older version of M/WIBs. Series N is NOT referring to nano augmented agents. Series N, P and L refer to different version of the M/WIBs. Series P agents are what you fight in the game. "

From THEOS EK.
http://theosek.sitesled.com/seriesp.html

Read the full article and you'll get the picture.

minus0ne
6th Jul 2008, 01:03
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/408/diagramig6.th.png (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=diagramig6.png)
:lol: "The research" is not a subject, it's part of the predicate. Anyway that's not the point, what matters is that the original author of that theory and that website misinterprets a whole lot of things.

What is overcomplicated? Is it that Series L, N and P are just different types of MiB or that JC and Paul have albino traits (we seek what the developers might have on mind) and explosive killswitch ("we can't really check out if they have any")?
I agree, we're trying to approach what the devs have in mind. I'm just saying it was probably the devs' intent to relay this kind of background information in a clear, yet somewhat scattered manner. 3 types of augmented agents, 3 classifications, 3 series.


All right, let's presume, that nanotech agents explode upon death. I kill Walton Simons and... oops... But if Paul dies, he... Waita minute, we can see his dead body in the MJ12 lab. Well, I'm sure we can find a reasonable explanation.

Nevermind, let's say that Paul and Walton are only prototypes and have no self-termination mechanism. But if so, there are no nanotech agents WITH that mechanism and what Arthur Donovan says (that STM is one of the Series N key features) is nonsense.

The conclusion I was talking about is that whoever wrote that datacube had no idea that Series N may be associated with nanotech augmentations. If you make dozens of assumptions, you can ultimately fit that theory to the sources, but when you ask yourself a question: "did the developers really thought about all of that?", you'll start to doubt.
It's certainly possible that even the writers weren't wholly bothered with trying to create a canon with continuity in mind. My point however was that a single DX fan who creates a website and presents his theory as fact -

The most common misconception about W/MIBs is that Series N agents are the nanotech agents like JC and Paul, Series L agents and mechanically augmented agents like Gunther and Anna and Series P agents are physiopharmaceutical augmented agents also known as W/MIBs. The logic behind this being: N stands for nanotech and P stands for physiopharmaceutical. I suppose Series L being mechanical is just a logical attempt at filling in the gap. But however, this is all wrong.
- doesn't automatically make it established fact, especially when presented and backed up so flimsily, with rather selective interpreting of the 'evidence'.

I'll agree with the fact that we may never fully know what the devs' intent was, though (or perhaps, DX3 could shed some light on this :p ).

I've been off the DX3 forums for... I dunno, two days (I got distracted by Diablo 3 forums). Anyway, I kinda lost track of where this thread was going, and only skimmed the last possible posts. All I have to say on the matter is that blue eyes are not "albino traits". If we suggest that the eyes are pigment-less and the blue is just from visual augmentation, that would still only be "one albino trait". Not plural.

Arr, who be now the grammar violationer?
/slaps Tsumaru

Diablo 3 distracts you from DX3? Pull yourself together man! :p

Ahem, anyway - Blue eyes being an "albino trait" is not really the subject of debate right now. However, solid blue eyes (sic) is another matter, especially when they're of the practically glowing in the dark variety. It could be blue instead of pink because of what Scadvid mentioned, or possibly this has something to do with the nano-augmented vision (flashlight/nightvision/infravision etc.). I could see why that could be nicknamed an albino trait.

And it's plural "traits" because of the obvious other traits, namely the skin tone (regardless of which character model you choose) and the highly visible thumping blue veins everywhere.

Series N has nothing to do with Paul and JC. It's just a older MIB version.

From THEOS EK.
http://theosek.sitesled.com/seriesp.html

Read the full article and you'll get the picture.
That's the same source.

Tsumaru
6th Jul 2008, 07:50
And it's plural "traits" because of the obvious other traits, namely the skin tone (regardless of which character model you choose) and the highly visible thumping blue veins everywhere.
I don't understand. I choose the clearly dark-skinned character model, and you're telling me DESPITE that choice - it's clearly an albino skin tone?

Now who's crazy!?

As for the visible veins... I honestly can't recall that. But that might just be my dodgy memory. Nor can I recall that counting as an albino trait either. But that might just be my ignorance on the subject.

Nathan2000
6th Jul 2008, 12:24
:lol: "The research" is not a subject, it's part of the predicate. Anyway that's not the point, what matters is that the original author of that theory and that website misinterprets a whole lot of things.

Maybe I made some errors in the diagram (OK, "are" alone is not a predicate), but it doesn't change the message, that "the research" is the subject of a dependent clause. If you don't agree, try to make a diagram yourself.

I don't care about what the website says. I care about the in-game sources and my common sense.


It's certainly possible that even the writers weren't wholly bothered with trying to create a canon with continuity in mind.

Now you got it. When I say that your theory is illogical, you accuse the developers for making errors! It's the most flawed reasoning I've ever seen.


I agree, we're trying to approach what the devs have in mind. I'm just saying it was probably the devs' intent to relay this kind of background information in a clear, yet somewhat scattered manner. 3 types of augmented agents, 3 classifications, 3 series.

I'm not trying to read in designer's minds. I'm only interpreting the in-game text. You're the one who posted:

It's certainly possible that even the writers weren't wholly bothered with trying to create a canon with continuity in mind.

or perhaps the devs thought it'd be silly to see yourself explode before getting the load screen) there's no way to know.

Though it's pretty obvious this is what the devs are referring to when they say "albino traits" (again, not the same as albinism).

I only want you to admit, that the theory about "Series N agents" and "nanotech agents" being the same creates lots of problems, requires lots of additional assumptions, and thinking what the developers wanted; while the opposing theory is simple, not conflicting with sources and therefore more probable.


As for the visible veins... I honestly can't recall that. But that might just be my dodgy memory. Nor can I recall that counting as an albino trait either. But that might just be my ignorance on the subject.

MOST WANTED: J.C. Denton (...) Denton is approximately six feet tall, with silver facial tattoos and solid blue eyes, the result of a genetic condition usually concealed by a pair of sunglasses.
As the datacube states, the "lines" on Denton's face are not considered "veins".

Tsumaru
6th Jul 2008, 12:56
Wait, are we talking about the clearly electronic lines going down behind his ears?

http://www.battlereports.com/users/Feanor/DXPart1/1%20hermann.jpg
http://www.battlereports.com/users/Feanor/DXPart3/10%20JamieReyes.jpg

Even if visible veins were a symptom of albinism... that's a far stretch to consider what you see on those images as an albino trait. =/

minus0ne
6th Jul 2008, 19:19
Maybe I made some errors in the diagram (OK, "are" alone is not a predicate), but it doesn't change the message, that "the research" is the subject of a dependent clause. If you don't agree, try to make a diagram yourself.
Why is a diagram necessary again?

I don't care about what the website says. I care about the in-game sources and my common sense.
Same here, though we obviously interpret this differently.

Now you got it. When I say that your theory is illogical, you accuse the developers for making errors! It's the most flawed reasoning I've ever seen.
That's funny, I was saying there was a possibility what you said could be true, or are you just arguing for the heck of it?

The conclusion I was talking about is that whoever wrote that datacube had no idea that Series N may be associated with nanotech augmentations. If you make dozens of assumptions, you can ultimately fit that theory to the sources, but when you ask yourself a question: "did the developers really thought about all of that?", you'll start to doubt.


I'm not trying to read in designer's minds. I'm only interpreting the in-game text. You're the one who posted:
Actually I'm interpreting the in-game text as well, just differently. And you're the one who posted your theory as fact, while there's no definitive piece of in-game text to settle that.

I only want you to admit, that the theory about "Series N agents" and "nanotech agents" being the same creates lots of problems, requires lots of additional assumptions, and thinking what the developers wanted; while the opposing theory is simple, not conflicting with sources and therefore more probable.
Both theories conflict somewhat with the sources. Walton Simons has a self-termination mechanism, and he's not an MiB/Physiopharmaceutically augmented. As we have both demonstrated, both theories have merit, and can be perceived as simple. I feel the L/N/P for respectively mechanical-, nano- and physiopharmaceutical is the simple answer, you feel otherwise. I'll admit it requires some filling in the blanks, as does your theory, and that might be intentional on the part of the devs (after all where's the fun if it's completely clear cut).

As the datacube states, the "lines" on Denton's face are not considered "veins".
A 'WANTED' bulletin is not an accurate source of in-game info, at all, and there are numerous points in the game where there's actual tangible humour
resulting from the misinformation these bulletins spread. Why would MJ12 tell the general public the true reasons for the veins?

MOST WANTED: J.C. Denton (...) Denton is approximately six feet tall, with silver facial tattoos and solid blue eyes, the result of a genetic condition usually concealed by a pair of sunglasses.
Noticed the last part of this sentence, at all? Is it such a stretch the MJ12 scientists dubbed this as an "albino trait" - after all they mention the sunglasses as a simple solution in the e-mail?

Wait, are we talking about the clearly electronic lines going down behind his ears?
JC's nano-augmentioned, he doesn't have "clearly electronic lines", he has nanobots coursing through his veins ;)

Even if visible veins were a symptom of albinism... that's a far stretch to consider what you see on those images as an albino trait. =/
I don't see how it's a far stretch this was nicknamed an albino trait. After all, redheads and to a bigger degree albinos have more visible veins than people with higher melanin levels. In combination with the solid blue eyes it's not a stretch at all for me to think the MJ12 scientists/Donovan nicknamed it albino traits (they say traits for a reason, as in a trace of albinism, a touch, and yes I Merriam-Webstered that ;) ).

Coliphorbs
6th Jul 2008, 19:40
Walton Simons has a self-termination mechanism, and he's not an MiB/Physiopharmaceutically augmented.

He does not have any self-termination mechanism, actually.

You're reading way too much into this. The datacube refers to the MiB, not the Dentons. If only for the simple fact that with the exception of Walton, they're the only functioning nano-augs in the world.

Albino is not a term for general discolouration. It's an exact description of the known deficient pigment condition.

Nathan2000
6th Jul 2008, 20:55
Both theories conflict somewhat with the sources. Walton Simons has a self-termination mechanism, and he's not an MiB/Physiopharmaceutically augmented. As we have both demonstrated, both theories have merit, and can be perceived as simple. I feel the L/N/P for respectively mechanical-, nano- and physiopharmaceutical is the simple answer, you feel otherwise. I'll admit it requires some filling in the blanks, as does your theory, and that might be intentional on the part of the devs (after all where's the fun if it's completely clear cut).

The only difference is that I showed your theory's weak points, which you cannot explain. You, on the other hand, didn't provide any arguments AGAINST the "N=MiB" theory (other than Simons having a STM, which he hasn't - at least in the PC version). Before you equalize those theories, be sure, they are equally proven/disproven.

Both geocentric and heliocentric theories can be considered simple, but only one of them withstands the pressure of arguments and observations. And no one's complaining, that "this is only a theory".


JC's nano-augmentioned, he doesn't have "clearly electronic lines", he has nanobots coursing through his veins

http://theosek.sitesled.com/images/kancat/jcdentontexface.gif
Does this look like veins to you?


Why is a diagram necessary again?
Because, it's more difficult to sell a bill of goods when there is a clear diagram available.


That's funny, I was saying there was a possibility what you said could be true, or are you just arguing for the heck of it?
No, I'm not. Sorry, if it looked like this, I just won't rest, until everybody profess the only true theory about MiB.:rasp: However...

"It's certainly possible that even the writers weren't wholly bothered with trying to create a canon with continuity in mind." == "I was saying there was a possibility what you said could be true" ?

imported_van_HellSing
29th Aug 2008, 01:01
So I'm a bit late to the party here, but as for the L-N-P thing, I'm in favour of the "all-MiB" theory. But let's go over this:


The Series P Agents are the logical continuation of research resulting from the Series N: the development of a human agent with enhanced capabilities and absolute loyalty, but without the non-standard appearance of mechanical augmentation or the unpredictability of nano-augmentation.

From this excerpt, I understand that the Series N introduced the traits described in the latter part of the sentence, and series P continuation of the trend. Should you say the "with" part includes the nano agents too, I remind you that the lack of "absolute loyalty" is exactly the problem Page faced with Paul and JC.


Key features from the Series N agent will also be carried over, including the self-termination mechanism. An ingenious variation on the "kill-switch", the self-termination mechanism is wired into the autonomous nervous system of an agent. If mortally wounded, the mechanism will activate and explode, eliminating any evidence of the agent and damaging nearby hostiles.

As has been said, there's no "blow up when you die" system on either JC, Paul or Simons. So that can't have been "carried over" from them.


However, we are still continuing in our attempts to isolate the source of the albino traits present ever since the Series L, but so far the simple addition of sunglasses and dark clothing appear to have resolved the matter in a practical fashion...


With the L=mech theory, that would mean that not only the nano agents but also the mechs had albino traits as well. Which doesn't make any sense. Gunther and Anna are pale, sure. But what about the bartender at Hell's Kitchen? Or JC? JC is ONLY albino if you choose that one skin for him. As for dark clothing/sunglasses, the problem with the albino traits is not the sun hurting the agents, it's their unusual appearance - ideally the MiBs should blend in. The clothes somewhat balance out the pale skin, the glasses conceal the red eyes.

K^2
29th Aug 2008, 01:59
But why didn't Alex Denton wear sunglasses and dark clothes? If I remember correctly Alex wore a blue-ish leather shirt and had no sunglasses.
All other things aside, you need to keep in mind that Alex Denton isn't a straight Denton clone. It is a result of a fairly ordinary DNA being modified to work with augmentation using Denton DNA. Which is the main reason for all that interest for Alex's DNA and biomod architecture.

Herr Trigger
29th Aug 2008, 13:50
And why exactly would dark clothing be good/necessary for albinos? How would the colour of clothes affect anything? It's their SKIN which is the problem. White shirt, black shirt - there's still a shirt covering them.

I don't think they were talking about sun protection with the clothing; more along the lines of making them look as normal to the public as possible.


It's interesting, but I would never link "solid blue eyes" (as expressed in the wanted notice) with albinism.

I always thought the bright blue eyes were a byproduct of the nano-augmentation.

Also, official UNATCO vocab guidelines state that the Series P agents are called PiBs or Persons in Black, because MiBs/WiBs is a bit sexist.