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Vrykolakas
3rd Jan 2014, 00:09
As with any fighting game, there has to be a challenge that will put any players skills to the test; either it be a boss or a quest that requires the player to use their heads.

As we already know, three variant classes of the two species can be used to fight each other.

Vampires: Reaver, Tyrant and Sentinal.

Human: Scout, Alchemist and Hunter.

There may be more but that will be in due time.

With the exception of Kain himself and his Lieutenants, there won't be any major adversary that would stand in the way of human players; a true challenge for them, so to speak. And with each class being simple enough to kill, there isn't a specific/special way to kill an enemy, to make it harder for the players.

As for the humans, they have superior technology against the vampires, which enables them to fight evenly against a physically superior opponent. But again, there isn't a major threat/obstacle for the vampires to overcome when fighting humans.

Of course, there is use of the terrain the player could use on an enemy but I think someone's already mentioned that.

So I thought of something else that could be used. A few ideas that were shown in Blood Omen and Defiance.

With the vampires using the special the traits that they've inherited from each of their clans, they only ever use that specific fighting method. however, this here can lead to the creation of a boss of various different types, with the use of the ability all vampires have; the absorbing veins ability.

For example, a member of the Dumahim clan drinking the blood of a vampire from the Razielim clan, granting him the ability of flight. However their flying capabilities will pale in comparison to a true Razielim vampire. The reason for this is because in both games (Blood Omen and Soul reaver) Kain and Raziel have never showed the same level of power of those they had acquired their dark gifts from.

Since there a six clans with different abilities, there are a few variants that could be used to create a boss/enemy with absorbing veins ability.

With the humans, having to depend on technology to kill vampires, they could use something similar to guardian constructs that were used in Defiance. With their technology and alchemy, they could use these goliaths and upgrade them to take on a dozen Tyrants at once. Again, there could be variants to this too, depending on their shape, size and abilities. of these guardians



So tell me what you think of the idea everyone.

ZeroFernir
3rd Jan 2014, 01:29
That could be cool, but I think that alt. game modes shall be left for later thinking. What we must do is to think about stuff for the game as it is now.

ParadoxicalOmen
7th Jan 2014, 15:14
I wonder if there could be any mutual enemies in the games...like a wild beast that attacks both vampires and humans.
Although this would only makes sense if the map we were to play WASN'T in a city...

I'm not even sure if this is a good idea anyhow :p

Monkeythumbz
7th Jan 2014, 15:23
I wonder if there could be any mutual enemies in the games...like a wild beast that attacks both vampires and humans.

You mean, like werewolves? It's a good idea, but you need to consider what it would take to deliver in terms of new character models, animation, and especially A.I. Plus, processing resources for MOBs would mean that you couldn't have as many player-controlled characters on a map. And also we'd need to reconfigure maps to account for how having PvP and PvE in a single map would work.

So it's not impossible, and the lore does support it, but I think we should focus on making the core game as strong and fully-featured as possible for the time being.

That said, we do have some other plans for A.I. that we hope you'll like - watch this space!

RainaAudron
7th Jan 2014, 15:24
however, this here can lead to the creation of a boss of various different types, with the use of the ability all vampires have; the absorbing veins ability. Never really understood this thing from BO2, seems just a ripoff of Raziel´s boss soul devouring, nothing more. Anyway, such thing would be difficult to incorporate and would be pointless anyway - each clan specializes in their own gifts already, such thing would just take away their uniqueness, so I think it is a bad idea.

Not really sure about the idea of adding mutual enemies either, that just doesn´t work for team deathmatch. A.I. just can´t fully substitute human opponents effectively and any additional enemies could become a mere nuissance. You got plenty of action and tense moments without them already, believe me.

Sluagh
7th Jan 2014, 22:08
You mean, like werewolves? It's a good idea, but you need to consider what it would take to deliver in terms of new character models, animation, and especially A.I. Plus, processing resources for MOBs would mean that you couldn't have as many player-controlled characters on a map. And also we'd need to reconfigure maps to account for how having PvP and PvE in a single map would work.

So it's not impossible, and the lore does support it, but I think we should focus on making the core game as strong and fully-featured as possible for the time being.

That said, we do have some other plans for A.I. that we hope you'll like - watch this space!

The plans for A.I. sound fun. Admittedly though, am not in Alpha so anything sounds fun to me!

In terms of enemies... I am not quite sure about lore. The only thing that could work that I can think of would be some kind of Dark Eden enemies left over from the BO period. They'd have to be really grotesque and mutated. Or I suppose you could have demons from the Hylden realm, but I think saving them for an appearance in a later game (you never know) would be better in my op. I am not overly keen on werewolves, as they were never very well grounded story-wise in BO anyway, although of course Kain and Vorador had wolf form. I was wondering the other day who those big guys in Defiance were, the giants who the humans had to fight for them, that was never explained in the lore.

In terms of humies and technology:

- It makes sense to have them with more of an interest in tech than the vamps, who from the the lore have been complacent for a while whilst humanity was weakened.
- The vampires also have little use for technology, except for the weaker clans, as they evolve to compensate for weaknesses...are immortal - in some senses are demi-gods.
- The humans have mortality, a weak body but dexterous hands (not claws) as well as the ability to move about a lot in the daylight (am not sure how the whole daylight thing is working in Nosgoth, if it's been mentioned before I've forgotten it). They've naturally got more technological scope than the vamps. I like the idea of steam-punk machines, but they'd have to fit in well design and lore wise.

Lord_Aevum
7th Jan 2014, 22:27
I was wondering the other day who those big guys in Defiance were, the giants who the humans had to fight for them, that was never explained in the lore.

They were just humans as well, like anyone else, but with bumped up proportions.

Vrykolakas
7th Jan 2014, 23:26
I wonder if there could be any mutual enemies in the games...like a wild beast that attacks both vampires and humans.
Although this would only makes sense if the map we were to play WASN'T in a city...

I'm not even sure if this is a good idea anyhow :p

Like the idea. Sounds very plausible.

With the lands of Nosgoth being corrupted by the pillars, the wildlife could also be affected by that corruption. (Not saying that the animals are actually corrupted themselves though.) Driving all the animals in Nosgoth into an uncontrollable frenzy that gets worse as the corruption in Nosgoth deepens.:scratch:

ParadoxicalOmen
8th Jan 2014, 19:06
You mean, like werewolves? It's a good idea, but you need to consider what it would take to deliver in terms of new character models, animation, and especially A.I. Plus, processing resources for MOBs would mean that you couldn't have as many player-controlled characters on a map. And also we'd need to reconfigure maps to account for how having PvP and PvE in a single map would work.

So it's not impossible, and the lore does support it, but I think we should focus on making the core game as strong and fully-featured as possible for the time being.

That said, we do have some other plans for A.I. that we hope you'll like - watch this space!

I'm eagerly awaiting your AI surprise :)

I wasn't thinking about werewolves originally...i was thinking more towards the concept of those mutants that appeared in SR2 (although the lore suggests that they might be deformed creatures due to Hylden possession...since they had human blood yet demon souls http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/mutants.php).

*edit* The Hylden didn't seem to be present in Kain's rule though...so i guess my mutant idea isn't plausible... (if it is the case that they are Hylden possessed creatures)


The werewolf is a curious thing...since they didn't appear in ANY game after Blood Omen (even Kain, for some reason, stopped using his werewolf form).
I speculated that this might be due to the smoke towers, which along with the sun logically also blocked out the moon...thus impeding the werewolves to transform (maybe?)...Kain was special, only he could transform without the full moon.

EDIT: i had forgotten, but Vorador also had a werewolf form http://youtu.be/J4ha0N29NXQ?t=50s
Probably the werewolf form had different effects depending if you were a human or vampire.

Sluagh
8th Jan 2014, 21:22
They were just humans as well, like anyone else, but with bumped up proportions.

Ah ok, thanks. Tried looking them up on the Wiki but couldn't find much.

Bazielim
8th Jan 2014, 23:03
Ah ok, thanks. Tried looking them up on the Wiki but couldn't find much.
We do have a page for them - they are known as Vampire Hunter Juggernauts (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire_hunter_juggernauts) and are listed under the Defiance enemies category (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Defiance_enemies) - but the page itself is a little sparse, primarily because the Defiance Prima guide (which has most of the official enemy info for Defiance) was (and still is) the most available, so it's got a lesser immediate priority (hint hint editors;)), but I will get around to it at some point.

The guide does list a lot of enemy details and stuff, but it doesn't really give much more on that particular variant, I'm afraid:

"The Juggernaut Vampire Hunter is a giant-sized human wielding a massive sledgehammer. When he is attacked, he immediately counters with a crushing blow of his hammer, the momentum of which makes it nearly unstoppable. The Juggernaut’s greatest weakness is being forced into an extended fight. He will grow slower and weaker as he takes damage, eventually becoming so tired that he lacks the energy for a counterattack."

Sluagh
9th Jan 2014, 11:37
We do have a page for them - they are known as Vampire Hunter Juggernauts (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire_hunter_juggernauts) and are listed under the Defiance enemies category (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Defiance_enemies) - but the page itself is a little sparse, primarily because the Defiance Prima guide (which has most of the official enemy info for Defiance) was (and still is) the most available, so it's got a lesser immediate priority (hint hint editors;)), but I will get around to it at some point.

The guide does list a lot of enemy details and stuff, but it doesn't really give much more on that particular variant, I'm afraid:

Yeah. I suppose because Moebius had a "mercenary" army, he may have got those guys from anywhere - some far flung corner of Nosgoth with gigantic people or something. Or maybe it was magic that made them big? I suppose we won't ever know, as it was such a minor part of the game.

Sluagh
9th Jan 2014, 11:39
We do have a page for them - they are known as Vampire Hunter Juggernauts (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire_hunter_juggernauts) and are listed under the Defiance enemies category (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Defiance_enemies) - but the page itself is a little sparse, primarily because the Defiance Prima guide (which has most of the official enemy info for Defiance) was (and still is) the most available, so it's got a lesser immediate priority (hint hint editors;)), but I will get around to it at some point.

The guide does list a lot of enemy details and stuff, but it doesn't really give much more on that particular variant, I'm afraid:

Yeah. I suppose because Moebius had a "mercenary" army, he may have got those guys from anywhere - some far flung corner of Nosgoth with gigantic people or something. Or maybe it was magic that made them big? Moebius cookies? I suppose we won't ever know, as it was such a minor part of the game.