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biribobili
2nd Jan 2014, 22:29
This has been bugging me for a few days since I heard about this game and started thinking about LoK again. It's been maybe 10 years since I played the games so I'm not really sure if my thoughts are correct about this. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Kain makes a big deal about the pillars returning to vampire guardians, but are Kain, Vorador and their kin really vampires? The Ancient Vampires are blue skinned, winged and look somewhat angelic. The immortality and blood craving was because of the Hylden curse. It looks to me that the ancient vampires didn't make Vorador into a vampire but merely passed their blood curse to a human.

With the exception of Raziel, none of the "vampires" in any generation evolved wings or blue skin, and even Raziel's wings may have been just a coincidence, since they sometimes took animalistic attributes (Rahab, Zephon). Also, the ancients didn't seem to evolve like the new vampires either. Janos Audron was the oldest vampire and still had the appearance of a normal ancient. Vorador was much younger and evolved much more dramatically, even before the pillars were corrupted.

It seems like the evolution process was a side-effect of the Hylden blood curse infecting a human, and Vorador, Kain and the rest aren't vampires at all, not in the sense that they belong to the same species as the ancients, and only that they possess the same blood curse. So Kain is right in claiming the pillars for the vampires, but he is not a vampire. Did I make a wrong turn somewhere? :confused:

Basically this is my logic. If a dog has rabies and it bites a cat, then the cat has rabies too, but the cat doesn't become a dog.

The_Hylden
2nd Jan 2014, 22:53
The Ancients' are the originals. Their race's name is the vampire race, yes. The curse they were given by the Hylden cursed them with immortality and blood thirst. They also became sterile due to this curse, which screwed up the Pillars being able to call new vampire Guardians once the old ones had perished. The Pillars chose humans instead as their Guardians as the next similar race that could be called from birth. The vampires, in an effort to preserve the proper governing of the Pillars, found a way to pass on the curse of "vampirism" to the human Guardians. They chose Vorador first, not a Guardian, to try this on and he became the first made vampire.

Kain was made by different means, but still is a made vampire from the essence of the Ancients. The curse, in a perverse way, becomes the only way the vampires can propagate their species. Perhaps, philosophically, you can argue that the new vampires aren't true vampires, just cursed beings, but they do carry also the essence of the Ancients in their blood, and perhaps for Kain and his brood, down to their very soul.

It's more than just the curse, as it isn't a coincidence that both Vorador and Kain's lineage develop similar physical features to the Ancients. Cloven hands and talon-like feet, the very same yellow eyes, and yes Raziel's winged transformation. As for Kain's lineage's beastly turn, this is due to the corruption within Kain, passed onto him from Nupraptor's curse when he was just being born to the world as a human. This accelerated both the Lieutenants' evolution and later devolution.


To counter your rabies theory: yes that would simply be passing on a disease. However, when a dog bites something, it doesn't also change the being into part dog, but that is what happens here to the human vampires. Over time, they change to be part do- er Ancient :p But the greatest counter to the theory is simply that everyone and anyone seen, heard, or referenced in Nosgoth states that the new vampires are vampires and of the same shared "species" now. You kind of have to go with the rules the fantasy universe is laying out for you.

xdEATH_reApERx
2nd Jan 2014, 23:25
nahhh...he ain't a vampire at all...just another common werewolf guy

gotta admit you really have an exceptional thinking there...but in real life its a general rule if a vampire bites a human he becomes one too & there is no exception for animals too so u see if ur dog bites a cat then two things may happen first it may survive the attack with all those wounds or second it may reach the doors of heaven but butt if a vampire bites that cat then that cat is surely doomed for eternity....lol & its my personal experience..my neighbor used to look like a human turned vampire whereas his wife used to look like a readymade vampire...got me:scratch:

but bout what you said it can be assumed that the creatures who were born vampires were the ancients like Janos and used to look like that (the orignal vampire look) on the other hand if we talk about some human bitten by a vampire then he/she would transform into a blood sucker too & would possess all those inhuman abilities and dark gifts of there own which no human could possess...but humans after turning into vampires look different coz they were not born vampires but were turned into one of em and i guess the evolution is kind of a side effect of the venom injected into a delicate human body...

biribobili
2nd Jan 2014, 23:30
Yes, I acknowledge the facts as the game gives them. It was just kind of a question into the "meta" of the LoK vampires. I also thought it was very interesting how the species started to identify itself by the nature of the curse. I thought it would be ironic how, if the ancients somehow returned and were free from the Hylden's curse, maybe they would also end up becoming prey for the new vampires' thirst.

biribobili
3rd Jan 2014, 16:50
Another weird thing about the devolving is that it doesn't start as soon as the vampires are made. Raziel and the other lieutenants lived for a thousand years but they didn't start devolving until Raziel was thrown into the abyss. I wondered if it might have been linked to Kain's own mental state as balance guardian or as their father rather than the actual pillars.

The_Hylden
3rd Jan 2014, 17:27
As I already noted, the corruption from Nupraptor that infected Kain when he was just being born as a human Guardian to replace Ariel is what was passed to Raziel and the other Lieutenants and made them eventually devolve. Kain's very soul became corrupted, as his soul was his Pillar token binding him to the Balance Pillar. The portions of his soul he gave over to draw back each of the Sarafan Priests' souls back into their bodies and to turn them into vampires also cursed their souls with Nupraptor's curse.

Interviews with Amy Hennig and CD's team (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig?page=1#.Usbx_bSYySo)


Q: Why didn't Kain evolve any further once Raziel had grown his wings?
A: The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.


Q: Did Kain ever get a token (binding item) When he finally made his way to the
pillars they were corrupt and incapable of giving him a binding item I would
think. But this was interesting question I had to put it down. =)
A: This is an important question (and brings up the major "inconsistency" complaint of the fans on the GameFAQs board).
The Balance Guardian is different from the other Guardians -- he/she is the hub, the still point around which all the other Pillars principles turn. As such, the Balance Guardian does not have a traditional binding item. The Balance Guardian's very soul is the thing which binds him/her to the Pillar.

Hm, as far as Kain's mental state controlling it, Raziel's wings evolved obviously before being abyssed, and he wasn't the only one suffering a bit of the signs for the devolution that would occur. In the intro, you can see the gill slits on Rahab that are visible in his concept art, presumably also with scaly skin, and Turel's ears have grown considerably already. Melchiah presumably always had to hide the inherent rot of his body as he went, having the poorest portions of Kain's soul making him a vampire, but he's also heavily stitched up here. Raziel was simply the biggest focal point of what was happening, but Kain of course cast him into the abyss to set things in motion to save Nosgoth, not out of jealously.

biribobili
3rd Jan 2014, 18:19
Ah ok now I understand, I wouldn't have remembered those details myself :)

Sluagh
8th Jan 2014, 01:59
Speaking of which, a question that entered my mind recently, but is not one that can easily be answered unless they do another Kain game: If Kain (Defiance era) is a vampire by virtue of necromancy, and Janos' heart has been put back in Janos, does he necessarily need to drink blood anymore? Isn't the whole reason he's alive due to his Scion of Balance destiny, which Moebius, EG etc. either forgot or chose to ignore? Does he still need to sustain himself in that way?

SeverusDecker
7th Feb 2014, 16:35
another thing you have to take into consideration is that Kain was turned into a "vampire" in BO1 by the Necromancer. (I can't remember his name as it has been so long since I have played the game) And another funny this is that from what you get in SR1 when you find the Serafan tomb Raziel (in the monolog) makes it seem like he and his brother were already dead before Kain turned them. Did anyone get that?
Which means that maybe you don't need to bite (like your rabies theory) to turn someone/thing.

Bazielim
7th Feb 2014, 18:15
another thing you have to take into consideration is that Kain was turned into a "vampire" in BO1 by the Necromancer. (I can't remember his name as it has been so long since I have played the game) And another funny this is that from what you get in SR1 when you find the Serafan tomb Raziel (in the monolog) makes it seem like he and his brother were already dead before Kain turned them. Did anyone get that?
Which means that maybe you don't need to bite (like your rabies theory) to turn someone/thing.
That'll be Mortanius (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Mortanius) the Necromancer (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/mortanius.php). Later developments and developer information reveal that Kain is indeed a unique vampire because of his unique resurrection by Mortanius and what Mort used to do it (which is explained in Defiance - spoilery hint (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Heart_of_Darkness)).

A knock on effect of this is that Kain's progeny are somewhat unique. Whereas the Ancients (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_vampires), Second-gen (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vampires_(second_generation)) and BO2 vamps (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vampires_(post-Blood_Omen_era)) seem to be based on the traditional passing of the blood curse (which hasn't really been given much detail in the lore, but is assumed to be something like the 'usual' biting/drink blood method), the Soul Reaver era vamps (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vampires_(Soul_Reaver_era)) reproduction method is based upon snaring a soul from the underworld and bringing it back into the body, hence they carry the curse much deeper as it's rooted in their very souls.

SR Vamps do not require a living human to create a vampire, just a corpse and a soul, but it is hinted that turning so long after death (nearly a millennium in the case of Raz et al) is at the very least a major taboo in vamp society and probably contributed to the lieutenants ignorance of their former human lives.

JanusDominus
8th Feb 2014, 05:11
Of course not, he doesn't sparkle.

Look at him. Look at the tridactyl cloven hands and hooved feet. Ever seen a human with those? Neither did I.

SeverusDecker
8th Feb 2014, 16:37
Of course not, he doesn't sparkle.

Look at him. Look at the tridactyl cloven hands and hooved feet. Ever seen a human with those? Neither did I.

I think that is a evolutionary step. If you look in BO1 and BO2 Kain has normal looking hands and feet.