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View Full Version : SOPILER to and including Defiance. Is Raziel's free will LoK-logic?



Brown_Jenkins
22nd Jun 2008, 00:04
Hi! I've played the games Blood Omen 1 to Defiance and I've been thinking about something that I haven't quite found confirmation on anywhere on the web. I've already asked this on gamespot's forum, but there didn't seem to be a definite answer. Here's the thread:

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/lokdefi/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-43751543&pid=914777&msg_id=m-1-479144908#m-1-479144908

I connected the two things in the story that Raziel have free will and that whenever you encounter your own soul in the LoK-universe when you time-travel (naturally) you may change the history. It seemed to me that because Raziel have his future soul wrapped around his arm he should always be able to change the history and thus have that free will. According to LoK-logic that is.

To further this it would mean the Wraith Blade that is Raziel's future soul and is the one soul with the power to change (the past, future or whatever), that is if it works that way, and be the one in control of the Soul Reaver at the end of Soul Reaver 2. Could this be why Kain tells Raziel to let go at that time? So that the mad Raziel Soul/Wraith Blade doesn't force Raziel's body to hold down the Reaver? I mean that Raziel wasn't trying to pull out the Reaver but holding it down. You may ignore this paragraph as I just thought of it and haven't had time to ponder just how far-fetched it really is :)

Anyway, I think I came to the first conclusion at the end of Soul Reaver 2 when you found out that Raziel was the spirit inside the Reaver. I was hoping to get a confirmation of this in Defiance. Did I miss something? There's talk in some game that Raziel's free will is because of his resurrection, but this information was given by the Elder God who is far from trustworthy. Also in that thread from gamespot someone mentioned Raziel accusing the Elder God of merely using Raziel's free will and not being responsible for it. Then again Raziel have been wrong a lot of times.

I've looked around this forum and you all seem very knowledgeable in LoK and if not confirmation I'm hoping to give you something to think about :)

Also, would there be any LoK-logical reason why you're able to change history only when you encounter your own soul? Any theories? I had this little theory in the gamespot thread I've been thinking a little more on: In LoK the time-line have a mind, lets call it fate, that doesn't like paradoxes. This mind makes sure that in the "original" time-line you never encounter yourself because you will remember from your past seeing yourself and it'll be too easy to create that paradox not doing what you remember yourself doing. Therefore its easier for fate to simply make the assumption you never encountered yourself and simply write a new history whenever you do encounter yourself. Oh yeah, I'm a programmer for a living and I love fun algorithms, then again the LoK-creators could as well and simply made a joke on a time-sorting algorithm (my explanation reminds a lot about a memory sorting algorithm of some kind) ;)

Sayid
22nd Jun 2008, 00:42
Raziel doesn't truly have free will as much as Sayid can kill a man with his feet

FearGhoul
22nd Jun 2008, 21:05
I think you got one of Kain's lines mixed up and thought it was the Elder God that said it. In Defiance, at Avernus Cathedral, Kain says: "Because of your re-making, you are the one unbound creature, the one among us all that truly has free will." I can't remember a line like that from the Elder God, though I might be wrong since it's not like I've got every line memorized.
This is something that they didn't really explain. Is it that any two souls that meet will be able to make a paradox? If Kain had met his younger self in SR2 or Defiance, would there have been a chance to change history? Or is it only in the case of Raziel's soul? It's suggested that it's only Raziel, like Kain said about his re-making, and how that's the cause of it somehow. Like you pointed out, since the Soul Reaver has Raziel's soul, and when it's in it's Wraith Blade form on Raziel, you would think that he should have the paradox all the time, since it only took two Raziel souls to change history when Kain fought William.

shlmysfb
22nd Jun 2008, 22:11
I'm pretty sure the Reaver is a changed version of Raziel's soul - so changed that it's not the same thing. So only when two Reavers meet is a paradox created. Note in SR2 Raziel has to actually be partially absorbed into the Reaver for the "warp" paradox effect to occur; there have to be two actual Wraith Blades.

So, anytime there are two Wraith Blades, there's a paradox; the difference between Raziel and Kain, then, is that any paradoxes created by Kain are destined/I] to happen, while when Raziel creates a paradox he does so of his own free will (which he has due to his resurrection).

For example, Kain was [I]destined to create a paradox by killing William, and by saving Raziel from the Reaver; Raziel was not destined to create a paradox when he spared Kain in the chapel. He had to choose to spare Kain, using his free will.

That's my theory. Still, it's kind of weird that someone can be destined to create a paradox. :rolleyes:

Brown_Jenkins
22nd Jun 2008, 23:24
I think you're right in that only two Wrath Blades can create a paradox. I thought you were wrong as I wanted to remember from Soul Reaver 2 that when Raziel met his younger self there was that sense of vertigo. However after re-checking it they were both just stunned, looked at each other and then the place started to collapse. There were sadly no sense of vertigo. The clip is available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnsJaWRn24w&feature=related

This probably means that I was completely wrong in thinking that any two twin souls would do to make a paradox, or even Raziel's original soul. This makes me a little confused, as I thought with my solution there would be a sense of LoK-logic in their universe.

Still does this mean anything? I mean that only two Wrath Blades can change history? What about Raziel's free will that they went on about in Defiance? Where they just talking about his Wraith Blade and those moments in time where he was able to make them meet?

This makes me a litle bummed out as I thought the LoK-universe made sense in its own way. Now it doesn't seem to make any sense, and things that I thought were really cool plantations are just very big holes in the story-line. Thanks a lot ;)

The_Hylden
29th Jun 2008, 23:19
The paradox comes from two of Raziel's souls meeting and both having the ability to reave one another. The Wraith Blades, when intertwined, both could potentially reave the other, which is why you get the paradox "the Reaver could not devour its own soul." as Raziel mentions when recounting why the Soul Reaver shattered when Kain struck it over his head in SR1.

For this reason, only two Wraith Blades coming in contact with one another, or a Wraith Blade and Wraith Raziel, will create a paradoxical moment where history can be changed. No two regular souls will do. Raziel's remaking, as Kain says, is the reason for his free will and that free will coupled with his ability to devour souls is why two of his souls post his remaking as a Wraith, or later becoming the Wraith Blade, in the same proximity to one another is dangerous for history. The timeline doesn't know what Raziel will choose, and therefore its course falls into flux. Raziel can try and devour his self, or both can go at it, and what you have is an undetermined outcome that time cannot account for. Being that time in Nosgoth is a singular course, or loop, where all events are already mapped out, a sudden possible change to any one single event along that timeline can drastically alter time's course, even tot he point of fatally altering it, as Kain also notes.

Hope that helped. Again, two of free-will Raziel souls with the ability to devour souls, and therefore, to devour each other, causes the paradox. Only he possesses free will as a Wraith and only he can then choose to try and destroy his self when meeting another of himself from another era of time. But, before Raziel became a Wraith, so him as a vampire or human prior, he did not possess free will, so could not choose other than what he was fated to do.

Oh, and Zulgbrtzchllha is right. Kain states that line, "All but one. because of your remaking, you are the one unbound creature -- the one among us all that truly has free will. You have a choice, Raziel." following a heated verbal, leading to physical, clash in Avernus during Defiance. The Elder God, to the contrary, never gives Raziel much credit for his abilities, beyond being his "Reaper of Souls." He does state to Raziel that his soul is undying and cannot be returned to the wheel, but that's about it.

Edit: Note that at no time where we see two of Raziel's souls coming together do they actually try and devour one another, I don't believe. The Wraith Blade and Raziel, however, are fighting against one another. The fact they have the ability to destroy themselves is enough.

fneh
5th Jul 2008, 13:00
if that's true then how come the soul reaver couldn't devour "its own soul" when kain struck him with the reaver in sr1?

"the paradox shattered the blade"

Kazame
5th Jul 2008, 13:41
I'd post my theory on this, but its very long to type. Just check out my post on this thread, its basically exactly the same (its the last post on the thread).

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=76049

The_Hylden
10th Jul 2008, 03:25
Well, guess I'll address that post here then:p


Kain changing history at the stronghold (by pulling the reaver out of raziel and sparing him) was probably forseen by moebius the second fate decided it to be so. It would really just take one shot from moebius' staff to stop kain in his tracks, but I suspect moebius allowed kain to do what he wanted to do, because moebius wanted kain dead, and needed raziel alive to do it.

Two things:

No, I don't believe Moebius could see what would happen there, only the "potential" possibilities, like he could with Raziel in Defiance. He can't really determine the outcome of a paradox, though, only what seems to be the most probable outcomes. Second, Moebius didn't keep in any proximity, or use the staff in this instance because, if he had, he'd have disabled the Wraith Blade, which was needed to force Raziel into the physical blade. Moebius was forced to let this play out without his influence.


All kain, or anyone, needs to do to change history is bring two incarnations of the soul reaver (or raziel's soul) together.

Well, one has to be destined to do so. Kain is the only one destined to have this happen. Not any ol' person can go and find the blade and do this, because they cannot change their plotted course through time. I think it's easiest to say Kain doesn't possess free will, but in these moments, due to the unpredictability of the two souls of Raziel, Kain's exact same actions can have multiple outcomes. So, he's destined to do the same things -- clash swords with William the Just, try and pull the blade from Raziel's chest. However, multiple outcomes can occur due to time being in flux. The destinied path can happen -- WtJ beats Kain; Kain fails to pull out the blade in time -- or another option that will change time's course can happen. Kain kills William, and he frees the blade from Raziel, in the timelines we see. Both outcomes change the course of history.


two incarnations of the heart of darkness met - -the heart of darkness, or the entity which it originated from -janos- does not possess free will

Well, the hearts do not contain Janos' soul either, nor can they make choices, lol. Let alone not having free will, they can't affect anything because it's just a heart and has no “will” at all.


It has been stated by Amy Hennig that although the Wraith blade IS in fact another raziel, it is NOT the same thing as the bodily raziel. Once his spirit was sucked into the blood reaver, the transformation his soul went under changed him into a different entity entirely (but his free will remained). This is why raziel does not create a temporal distortion wherever he goes: yes the wraithblade is raziel as well but they are DIFFERENT. To create a temporal distortion, you must bring either two BODILY raziels together, or two SPIRIT raziels together.. any combination of the two does not justify a distortion. And thus far, we have only seen the spirit raziels come together to change fate, we've never seen two bodily raziels.

Raziel and only that very same Wraith Blade on his arm *do* create a paradox in the very instance we've been discussing: at the end of SR2. It turns the physical blade on Raziel and drains Raziel's soul into the blade. he states, "My twinned soul hovered both inside and outside the Reaver blade." So, both Raziel and his Wraith Blade self are similar enough that they do cause a paradox, but only when one *confronts* the other. This leads me back to what I've been saying. Two of the same souls possessing free will *and* with the possibility they might destroy one another, causes the paradox. For the most part, the Wraith Blade is pointing away from Raziel and never turns on him. I would imagine that were it to have remained over aroused enough back when it was more deranged in SR2, and drained Raziel to the point of oblivion, then we'd have seen another paradoxical moment spring up.


And not gifted with the power of free-will, Elder God can see exactly what he plans to do.. No, EG can see what Kain WILL inevitably do. Elder God now KNOWS whether he will perish or whether Kain will.

Unless he actually needs Moebius, or some Timestreamer, to do so and isn't so omnipotent as he claims. But, let's say he doesn't. Kain's real obstacle is he's bound by fate. If it's fate that he rights these things, it will happen. If not, Kain can't simply waltz through time anywhere he wants and cause another paradox by confronting someone, be it himself, or another, holding the Soul Reaver. Kain can't *choose* another path than what he's now fated to by time. This is why the going theory, supported by what was left out of Defiance, is that Kain can only affect the future timeline we haven't seen, past SR1 (in that era).

Now, to Fneh:


if that's true then how come the soul reaver couldn't devour "its own soul" when kain struck him with the reaver in sr1?

"the paradox shattered the blade"

It not being able to devour its own soul is the entire reason for paradoxes, and that it can choose to try to in the first place. That's what I've been saying this whole time. The paradox had to happen to prevent it from trying to devour, or destroy, itself. When it fights itself in the past, we get more paradoxes.