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Blade_hunter
16th Jun 2008, 22:02
I want to talk about suits on deus ex.
In DX 1 we have

The hazard suit
The ballistic armor
The thermoptic camo

and other items like

The Rebreather
The Nanotech goggles


I want their come back in an enhanced form

The hazard suit
It doesn't uses energy and it absorbs damages by radiation and toxic gas.
It can protect us against acid and poisoned liquid it has an oxygen reserve
We can refill them with oxygen or use an other ready suit.
When the suit is empty we don't lost it because it's reusable
I give a full protection and absorbs some physical damages.
If the suit were damaged the absorption is less effective.
When we use it the oxygen consumption and the efficiency is upgraded by the environmental training.

The Ballistic armor
It can protect our chest only and it absorbs all physical damages and damages caused by energy weapons
It doesn't use energy when the armor is destroyed we can repair it also if the armor is damaged we can do the same
The damage protection depends on the envirommental training

The Heavy armor
It can protect our shouders, our chest, and our neck
It's more effective than the ballistic armor and it have the same inconvenients

The thigh pads
It can protect our pads
It's a light armor and give an useful protection
It have the same functionality as other conventional armors

Knee pad
It can protect our knee and the lower part of our legs
It's a light armor too bu heavier than the thigh pads
It have the same functionality as other conventional armors

Helmet
Like other military soldiers we can use an helmet, it protects our head
It's an heavy protection against physical attacks

Heavy helmet
This helmet can protects our face completly. and can be used to absorbs toxic gas

Armored gloves
It's a good armor to protect our hands and our arms
It protect us against the fact if we are hit on the hands we don't loose our weapon

Powered armor
This armor give is a complete shield and a full protection
It uses energy and can regenerates the force field
It aborbs well the attack of energy weapons, the ballistic weapons are absorbed a bit only and we loose a bit of armor.

Thermoptic camo
This suit give us a full invisibility, it consumes energy and cover us with a complete invisibility shield, it can also make us invisible to radars and infrared devices.
The only mean to detect it is the fact it emits a sort of vapor that recover us
It consumes energy and it's refillable.
The energy consumption depends on the environmental training skill

Asbestos suit
This suit is a light and full suit that protect us against fire and burning
It's very fragile and other attacks can remove the efficiency of this suit

Scuba gear
It's a full suit with a oxygen bottle, palms and binoculars
When we use this suit we are more agile underwater but we are less agile with a normal suit than using this suit in the ground, the oxygen bottle can be refilled.

Rebreather
This mask give us oxygen underwater.
We have no benefits instead of the scuba gear underwater, but we don't loose agility when we walk in the ground, the oxygen reserve is small, but it can be sufficient.

Night vision goggles
These goggles allows us to see on the dark, it consumes energy and the energy can be refilled

Infrared goggles
It allows us to see the infrared emitted by each element or creature in the game
like the night vision goggles it can be refilled

Nanotech goggles
These goggles can use some visions modes to detect some enemies when it necessary
It uses energy except when the visions modes were deactivated.

Thats all for the moment, but I think we can got a good use of them and I hope it's a good idea for the next game :)

Tsumaru
17th Jun 2008, 00:36
Too much stuff. Obviously oversimplification is a bad thing, but a huge convoluted array of items which tend to overlap with each other just seems unnecessary. Do you *really* need two items for swimming? What is the practical difference between knee and thigh pads?

serene_chaos
17th Jun 2008, 03:47
Yeah,too much. i never used any of that stuff, except for the hazmat suit on a couple of occasions. not necessary, in my opinion.

gamer0004
17th Jun 2008, 10:36
Well I like the idea. I never used armor, but only because they depleted very quickly. Yes, the pads aren't necessary, but otherwise most things are great.
I especially like the idea of being able to wear a helmet.

Chemix
17th Jun 2008, 12:34
The ballistic armor felt kinda useless because it was sort of a power up, it would run for a couple of seconds and shut down. If there was some kind of permanent body armor, then it might be worth while, as the aug made the armor totally useless after you got it, as you could switch on the same effects at any time and recharge your bio electrics.

My suggestions:

Gas Mask- protects you from inhaling poison gas. (no timer, but it warps your vision a little, and takes away some of your peripheral vision)
Hazard Suit- protects you from most harmful areas to some extent, minor amount leaks through (recharges after you're out of harms way or when in inventory, but makes your movement slower and aiming more difficult)
Bullet Proof Vest- puts a layer of armor between bullets and your chest, the rest of your areas are still vulnerable, but it doesn't have a timer, it simply wears out from being shot so much.
Leg Guards- Same as above, but for your legs, but also, it'll slow your movement
Gilli Suit- Physical camo used by todays field snipers in forested envrionments. Slows movement a little and can be destroyed by fire or lots of bullet impacts (a lot of bullet impacts, something in the hundreds), but offers no protection against weapons, only concealment.
OLED Camo- A suit of OLEDs with cameras that show an image of what's behind you on them, a primitive sort of cloak, would use some kind of rechargable power source, but you'd still be visible to bots and cameras and lasers, just harder to see by people.


I always felt the goggles were sort of useless, particularly with the night vision aug.

GruntOwner
17th Jun 2008, 20:19
Passive upgrades to your suit and the standard Bio suit, Kevlar suit and Camo suit. All you really need. They weren't integeral parts of gameplay, though they were an option if you had the patience to micromanage them and plan their use. If they become another chore, they will lose their novelty. It'll go from "Oh thank god, now to get round those cameras with this" to "Hmm, should I use this or keep it safe with a higher end model? Maybe I should go back for that one I dropped to make room for my GEP."

RebelX
17th Jun 2008, 21:34
Sounds a little like the nanosuit from Crysis to me lol

But like many said before, its too much stuff. Plus, what if its a prequel? How can they put that stuff in the game?

Chemix
17th Jun 2008, 21:37
most of my mentions are today or near future technology

Blade_hunter
17th Jun 2008, 23:59
My proposal is to propose more suits and change their mean of work.
As Chemix says they act like a power up, yes and thats the reason I will talk about them.
If someone have played to Quake II we can see DX suits acts like Quake 2 power up and suits.

My proposal is to propose some permanent suits, they give more importance to the damage system and most of them are permanent, the true drawback of them is the fact they can be destroyed, an Hazard suit have a bottle of oxygen, but we can activate this bottle when we want to avoid the contamination of the zone, it can be automatic if we use the suit like the DN boots or the DN scubagear for example.

Why we don't use the suits in DX ?
I think it's because they acts like Q2 items, like a power up we can activate and have a remaining time before the item's depletion

Why I propose two items for swimming, one is for short travels, the other is for longer travels and it upgrades our swimming abilities but it downgrade our walking/run ability.

For the suggestions we can suggest futuristic stuff because we don't know really if the game is a prequel or not, and the ideas submitted by Chemix already exits or, they use near futuristic technos like the OLED camo ;)


In DX 1 the suits/items can't be switched off to use them later or doesn't act like a normal item.
DX is a game that encourages the exploration and the item working isn't compatible with the DX style even if we play as an assault tank.

I would suggest a mean of working

Standard armors

Armors have hit points like us and if we have a good environmental training or a skill that do the same; the armor can protect us up to 100% and we can take more damage before the armor destruction / depletion.

For example a light bullet proof armor have 80 hit points it can protect us up to 70% if it's pistol bullets, and 25% if it's assault rifle / sniper bullets.
this protection is when whe have the environmental training skill at the lower level
On higher level it give us a 100% protection against pistol rounds and 60% against perforating bullets
If we wear the armor it give us it's protection. if we don't wear it, it can't give us it's protection.

Some armors if they have metal pieces can amplifies the damage caused by electromagnetic weapons, like a microwave gun or an electric cannon for example

Powered armors and shield generators
These armors are most of times a full protection and they consumes energy when we activate them.
When we don't take any damage the energy used is low and we can keep them on a good time before we must refill them.
If we took some damage it consumes some energy and the shield hit points are reduced, the battery depletes themselves faster because the devices rebuilds the shield.
When the shield is down we are automatically injured by the projectile or other things even if the battery have enough energy the rebuild the shield

Some weapons doesn't affect the shield, but they can pass through and give us the full damage.

Some protections can consume energy only when we are attacked like a rocket protection that destroys the rocket before it can hit us, this can be useful if we want to protect a dangerous zone against rockets.

The effect suits
They are hazard suits, energetic camos, etc
they use a battery, an oxygen bottle, etc
We can refill them and activate them when we want, or they can be automated like the hazard suit for example.
the camos or suits like this are manually operated, the hazard suit can switch itself on if we are on a dangerous zone.

Some items of this category acts like the gas mask of Chemix it protect us against poison, sleeping and other gas, but it remove a part of our vision.

I have some reasons to propose a lot of suits, the first it's because they have one function or some functions but not a sort of Crysis suit with multiple function , the second is the fact they take some inventory spaces and we must chose between each and the other items of course.
The biomods acts on other manners and use most of time bioenergy, these items can use batteries, oxygen bottles or other supply.
Some items have hitpoints like armors.

For the armors we can choose two ways:

1- they have hitpoints and the give a us a big protection against aggressions
OR
2- the have permanant and give us a low percentage of protection (like SS2 armors)


For me the suits in DX were useless in most cases because they work only a short period of time and not correctly...
I want to keep the fact the skill can affect the efficiency of a suit, but change the mean of work of them and propose some different manners to differentiate each and give us some other choices and a more useful item than they were on the previous game.
If we keep the DX item working my ideas were useless because no players wants to use non valuable items.
I think if we improve them and keep them balanced.
the inconvenients submitted by Chemix make them balanced and realistic to use.
I think these new means of work can enhance the game and offers something new

jcp28
18th Jun 2008, 01:05
A rebreather could be useful. There were a few areas in DX (like that Canal Road tunnel where you find that scientist) where you pretty much needed one if you didn't want to upgrade yor swimming skill.

Also, there could be some situations where it'd be useful to use your thermoptic camo for longer. I never really though about using it myself, but I can imagine it being a technology being used in the future.

Tsumaru
18th Jun 2008, 04:30
I have a question. Suppose you have a swimming suit, or whatever. You use it. You run out of oxygen. It sits in your inventory, empty and useless, until you find an oxygen tank (or whatever). Then it's refilled, and good to go.
How is this any different to using a rebreather which runs out, is removed from your inventory, and you can't do anything until you find another one?

Or have I misunderstood something in your proposal.

Furthermore, I still don't understand the concept of two swimming things. If one degrades walking/running ability... then take it off? No problem. Or are you saying it is *permanently on*? In which case, I don't like the idea at all.

Lo Bruto
18th Jun 2008, 07:50
With all these knee, elbow pads, helmets the guy would look like a kid who bought a skate.

Plus, there's no necessity of that much of googles 'cause there will be the classic eye augs.

AgnosticJive
19th Jun 2008, 21:04
Yeah...the suits are pretty much useless. I've been playing deus ex since it came out and I don't think I've ever really used any of them,why? because they're basically pointless (why? because you have augs that do the exact same thing! amazing!)

Everyone is going into detail about what this laundry list of suits can/will/should/want to do...but what's the point? Not every game involves someone running through a pool of radioactive waste, your average thug doesn't run around with a flamethrower (well,ideally anyways,Deus Ex seems to think the future is about guys running around with a weapon that has no range and 45 seconds of ammo.) Oh and one of those "suggestions" that really gets me "nanotech goggles" lol...assuming the technology exists in whatever time frame...nanotechnology is on a completely microscopic level, so assuming that these vision enhancing nanobots do exist why would one need "goggles"? Besides to look like the kid at the back of the short bus anyways.

Blade_hunter
20th Jun 2008, 12:28
The suits can turned off by ourselves of course they don't work like DX suits
but if you are empty of oxygen the suit upgrades always our swimming abilities if we keep it "on" if we won't use it we unwear it (turn off the suit)

I don't want the suits works like DX 1 because these mean of working make them more useless for the next reason: -We can't manage they're deactivation.

You have an armor, but you want to go in a sort of damage area, and you want to economize your armor for a more dangerous zone, with my system you can, with the DX system you can't.

My proposal is activate deactivate wearable items when we want.
and add werables because they are useful, but not in DX working system that put each item as a sort of power up and we can't throw them after activation because we must wait the end of their effect.

About future armors:
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/us-military-develops-robocop-armour-for-soldiers/
I found this link and the suit have most armor parts mentioned.

jcp28
20th Jun 2008, 21:28
Okay, but we don't need a whole lot kneepads, helmets and that sort of thing. It adds extra armor pieces that we don't really want or need. Nanoaugs are soldiers, but they are meant to fade into the background, so lots of armor would be a poor option.

But something where we could turn off thermoptic camo or hazamat suit for instance would make sense. We will probably need things like Hazmat suits at first since we won't find some sort of environmental resistance aug right away. We'll probably have to play through the game a little ways like DX 1 before we find what we're looking for.

Blade_hunter
20th Jun 2008, 23:23
The augs can replace suits in some cases, but if they work differently and if we can save some bioenergy with suits it can be an additional choice.
the separation of the armor parts can make our armor act like modules like the old health system. and it's realistic, if our chest armor is destroyed we have our kneepads for example, on todays soldiers uses kneepads not like the picture but they have them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneepads

The fact we can use suits, can add an other possibility if we want that of course:
the disguise!
If we sew MJ12 troopers, we knock one and us his suit, they have armor parts.

In DX 1 I use the thermoptic camo, the rebreather, the techgoggles and the hazard suit
the rebreather and the harard suit were the most useful to me, in the game quake 2 we have suits like this and acts like DX suits.

In unreal the suits are armor pieces and I loved this concept because it realistic even if the game and it's tournament series are close to a quake style game.


an helmet can protect us against head shots
the glove can protect our hands and avoid to lose our weapon if we are hit on this part
the kneepads can reduce some damages by failing.
I don't think armors were useless, but if we keep the DX system the armors are useless, i agree, but with a system that allow us to manage it they becaome a precious tool.

The main inconvenient are the fact they use inventory slots, but we can complete our biomods by the armors and the suits.
I think they are balanced and can be an alternate choice of certain biomods or can complete them.

In DX I use my swimming abilities, my aqualung aug with the rebreather to explore some underwater zones like the canal road and the ocean lab.

The suits are like the weapons we can choose carry them or not

iWait
22nd Jun 2008, 06:56
Why would kneepads protect you from falling damage? Any trained soldier–hell, any person with at least a miniscule understanding of the human body knows that kneepads or not if you land on your knees it's gonna cause a lot more damage than landing on your feet.

Also, what's the point of all that stuff? You suggest both nanotech (?) goggles and night vision goggles, we all know there's going to be the vision aug, so then you have three available vision enhancement items.

And the Helmet, do you know what helmets do when you are shot in the head? Nothing! Unless of course it's by one of those 9mm crapjectile weapons. Soldiers wear them more for low-speed shrapnel and the belief they are safe than for actual protection against bullets.

Those are a lot of items, I don't want to be playing Oblivion with guns, having 10 gear slots and stuff... OOH WATER, I SHOULD EQUIP MY MAGICAL HEADPIECE/NANOTECH REBREATHER OF LIMITED USE!

And in the future, who will wear asbestos suits? Why will we need oxygen bottles for the hazard suits? You proposed rebreathers and goggles relying on nanotechnology, and everyone knows the possible use of machines made up by a couple atoms in rearranging the atomic structure of a base mass to produce other compounds like... oxygen.

One more thing, what's the fun in using disguises? Ok, kill a guard, take his armor, walk around the enemy base in it..... Doesn't that kind of eliminate the stealth aspect of the game? Sure, you could choose to NOT use the disguise, but it's absurd to make a stealthy character when you could just use the disguises and complete your mission without spending most of your time in the shadows waiting for the patrols to pass.

Chemix
22nd Jun 2008, 13:15
I think disguises actually fits the Stealth idea rather. If you try and talk to people, they probably won't recognize you and will look you up, and then sound an alarm. Also, if someone knows what you look like, you can't stand very long in their field of vision. If you're not where you're supposed to be, it's suspicious and of course you might be given random medial tasks that if not done, make it also look odd. Wearing a disguise isn't as simple as one would first imagine. It's still stealth, just a different kind of stealth, with it's own problems to go with it.

jcp28
22nd Jun 2008, 19:19
I never used the Aqualung. There were many more areas where Environmental Resistance was useful, so when I found those augs in the UC in Hong Kong, it was no contest.
I understand what Blade hunter's saying about combining augs and armor, but that would be a waste of time for the same reason helmets and kneepads would be a waste of time. Putting in slots for such equipment would add more RPG elements that limit accessibility and make the game more needlessly complicated than it needs to be. I don't think that's the direction Eidos wants to go. They want to think very carefully before releasing another bomb. IW was meant to be more mainstream, but ended up sucking in sales anyhow at least in part because of poor design decisions.

As for disguises, they should only be used in certain places. If we were to use them everywhere, that would make the game much too easy in pretty much any high-security area where a disguise might be useful.

But Chemix has a point too. If you are given a series of dialogue options, and you choose the wrong one, the guard or officer or whoever you're talking to will sound the alarm or shout for help. It'd also be nice if the dialogue options were somewhat subtly worded, because that would force you to think for a few seconds on what to say. But would that fly in today's gaming industry? Doubtful.

iWait
22nd Jun 2008, 20:28
Well I guess if there was a high-security base that you need to use a disguise to infiltrate it would be alright, where afterwards you would have to dispose of your disguise for some reason. I just don't like the idea of being able to go through a base undetected without actually stealthily crouching in the shadows.

Blade_hunter
22nd Jun 2008, 20:47
Hazard suits needs oxygen bottles because if some chemical components are on the air they can pass our protection if it's not an "airproof suit" (I don't know what is the good sentence for it)

The kneepads can protect a bit against failing damage because when the fail is strong our legs bow and our knees can touch the ground

For the asbestos suit it can be a fireproof suit that is the same

For the disguise it's like chemix says it's a form of stealth that allow us to pass the guards in a not too short distance, because the JC's and Alex wear are stealthy only on dark places, but we can be sewed in all ranges.
the disguise is a sort of permanent stealth for the long range view's.
The only ways to use a disguise is to knock an NPC or find a suit that make us stealth in regards of the NPC's.
If we kill an NPC it leaves some blood on the suit and we are detected far away with blood on our wear. It's very suspicious ....
If the knocked NPC is found that sounds the alarm
If we are detected or a guy ask us a question, that can be a good way ...

The biomods are like the suits we chose what of them are useful or not thats a choice.
If I propose the suits it's for they're comeback, they're enhancement and add some new suits and maybe a concept to expand some DX gameplay parts.
I agree in DX they were useless for most of them, but most of them can give a protection more effective than a biomod, for a completion of them.
the ballistic protection can't protect ourself against crossbow darts a piece of armor can reduce the efficiency of some weapons and stop some projectiles like the darts ...

the biomods eats bioenergy, the suits can use
oxygen
energy
and materials in cases of armor

I haven't a ready full concept because I don't know if some pieces can be repaired, some of them can be refilled.
if the armors have hitpoints or are permanent but with a lower protection.

I don't know if the future game will be closer to DX 2 than DX 1I don't know if the game is a real improvement of the previous titles, or if because DX 2 was a "fail" ,that will make DX3 with the gameplay not better than DX because we have no means to improve it.
All games, all gameplays can be improved, I know bioshock proposes low stuff and gain a big note by the game press even if this game have something new to propose ....

Perhaps propose much stuff and a big universe that can be very ambitious for a game with only two year of development ... :(

jamesthefishy
23rd Jun 2008, 06:10
Not matter what type of suits or armor we get, I hope they:

Don't depleat with time
Take time to put on
Come with a zipper :lmao:

Blade_hunter
24th Jun 2008, 21:13
Take time to put on ?
I understood that can be more realistic, but the time should be small, like the time to wear a suit.
I don't know if add time to put on a suit is good even if it's realistic but, hum I wait for comments because it won't disturb me because it's logical and perhaps it's more immersive if we had an animation for the wear action ....

Most of suits proposed doesn't deplete with time, like the armors, and other suits, but the armors are the suits that only deplete with damage taken.

The suits with energy, oxygen and other power source can run out with the time of use.
A rebreather if we activate it the oxygen supply isn't used if we are on water surface or on grounded surfaces, but the oxygen is automatically used if we put our head underwater.
because the mechanism of a rebreather and other items like scuba gears use the same systems.

If we use a thermoptic camo or the OLED camo if we want a nearest technology.
this suit use a power supply to work.
When we activate it uses some power and when the battery is depleted we can change the battery to use the suit more longer.

To use a thermoptic camo I want to use my sort of step by step action system proposed in the interactivity thread and inspired by DX 1 and DX 2

DX have a sort of square that allow us to use an item or a weapon.
to wear the suit we must press the primary fire button
to unwear it when we have wared the suit we must press the secondary fire button.

To keep the system simple and easy to use I won't add any additional button to activate the item.

When the suit is selected and wared,
we must press the primary fire to activate it, and press the primary fire button again to deactivate it.
to use a weapon we must change the weapon the suit stay on the selected state
-wared and unwared, activated and deactivated

this system can be used for power shields, hazard suits, etc

the hazard suits and rebreathers can be automatically activated when we are on the right zone.
but we can change it if we want a manual use by the select fire button for weapons.

We can propose a system like the crysis game, but I hope my system is easy and realistic.
I try to propose somethings for the gameplay and if my ideas doesn't sound good for everyone I hope someone make the same and propose a better idea.

AgnosticJive
24th Jun 2008, 21:34
God you are a sorry lot. You're a super powered mechanical agent...and you need a layer of asbestos or ceramic plating to stop a 9mm from penetrating your metal arm...wow. The aforementioned being a prequel character, a sequel character would most likely again be infused with nanotechnology...again, I need a suit to protect my mechanical cells from radiation...thank god robots are so susceptible to radiation!

Look, I'm all for immersion and all that...but jesus christ, it's a video game, not some lame little tabletop mother's basement game you need to have every single little detail for. You don't need suits, and you certainly don't need "knee pads that really take time to put on and have a zipper!" (that statement being an amalgam of various stupid ideas stringed together.)

I am thankful that none of you people will ever touch the development of a game.

jcp28
24th Jun 2008, 22:20
I've got to LOL at the guy who mentioned the zipper. I thought that must be a joke

But power supply for thermoptic camo? Seriously? Though it can be included, I think we need not concern ourselves with finding power supplies for it.:rolleyes: I'm pretty sure many people will have better things to worry about than power for their camo suits. And additional oxygen tanks for hazard suits is also LOL. Something without such cruddy details would be the best direction.

I don't necessarily mind suits to augment our augs, but I can see them being the kind of thing being disposed of as you get an augmentation upgrade canister to upgrade stuff like Ballistic Protection and Environmental Resistance. Because the augs will now be powerful enough to work without the suits.

jamesthefishy
24th Jun 2008, 22:39
I honestly never used suits too much, I'd just pick a few up use them all at once, the hazmat suit was the only thing needed to complete the game i believe.

Blade_hunter
24th Jun 2008, 23:26
The zipper is a joke I think, but the suits are an other mean to protect us, do you think a standard soldier doesn't use suits for themselves, do you think the Ballistic protection and the Environmental resistance is the ultimate protection ?

No, the ballistic protection isn't effective against chemical weapons and energy weapons
the environmental resistance is a protection against external radiations.

If we are affected by a poisoned crossbow dart or a syringe we have no protection against it
the flame, electric and other weapons like this can affect us
In DX 1 the suits are here but their mean of working wasn't correct, but this fact make most of them useless.

It's normal to find some suits in an armory or in laboratories, the soldiers can give us some useful suits if they carry them...

Why in SS2 I used the suits and in DX I used the rebreathers, hazard suits.
Because they're mean to work are very different.

In SS2 these protections are permanent, in DX they are limited on time and we have better items than suits.

And when we commencing the game we haven't all biomods in DX but we have the hazard suit to pass some dangerous zones, most of DX items wasn't very useful, but we can find an use for them...
The flare wasn't useful because we have the light aug, but we can distract an enemy with the flare, we can save a little bioenergy, we can avoid to reveal our position with.
The termoptic camo can allow us to save bioenergy, if we haven't some stealth biomods it can be useful to take a better position and complete our biomods.

The suits are useless ? In DX 1 most of them yes, but in SS2 they are a good bonus.
I just wanted to find a compromise that allow us to use them, to add some possibilities, because DX 1 is a game that allow most strategies because it add more choices than using only biomods if the biomods on your eyes can solve every problems, right, but for me the biomods aren't ultimate in DX 1 we have a great number of them and sometimes I used the suits or complete them by suits, In DX 2 their very limited number force us to use a specific style to play.

And in DX we aren't a robot we are a cyborg with the strength and the weaknesses of an human and a robot

AgnosticJive
25th Jun 2008, 00:41
Blade Hunter...your grammar is atrocious. You all seem to be missing the most major issue with suits in the Deus Ex future. YOU HAVE NANOBOTS IN YOUR BODY, now I may be making too much of an assumption in assuming these nanobots would function as they are thought/planned on working, they would be able to repair injuries almost instantaneously, to fight radiation, eliminate toxins in your blood, reinforce bone structure, etc. You're not a cyborg because you really don't have any mechanical parts, you have tiny robots inside of you. I also don't see how in a normal game, or even one wrought with conspiracies as Deus Ex is, why you somehow have to walk through radioactive sludge while people are running around with flamethrowers. Also, I never really understood why you needed the bio-energy crap. Somehow these nanobots can function, repair, and propagate themselves within your body, but they need outside energy to _____. That kinda defeats the entire purpose of them, hypothetically they would be able to power themselves from your body's own energy/heat/whatever...so why biocells? It makes no sense. The suits aren't useless in games, suits are useless and pointless in Deus Ex.

Chemix
25th Jun 2008, 01:59
Your body only has so much bioelectric energy to use, active nanites drain this energy which takes it away from your vital functions... like living, which stops the production of bioelectric energy. To avoid... dying, or severe impairment while using nanites, they need more energy than the body normally provides, hence bio-cells which add to natural charge in the body enough to allow the nanites to work without harming the user.

AgnosticJive
25th Jun 2008, 04:20
And that explanation is based on what? Even if that were the case, while inactive they would naturally recharge, not stay inactive and out of a charge until one uses some mysterious blue...gel? liquid? whatever the hell it is.

iWait
25th Jun 2008, 05:44
Why not just have them convert the thermal energy in your body to electric/chemical energy, which would make it almost impossible for your brain to overheat.
And they are nanites, so couldn't you have an epidermic augmentation that prevents the mutation of cells/neutralizes poisons.

Oh and Bladehunter JC and Paul aren't Cyborgs, they just have separate machines inside them, it's kind of like a tapeworm, if you have one are you a tapeworm-human mutant crossbreed? No, you're a host and it is a parasite.
With nanites it is different, they live off your energy and you benefit from what they do. This is more of a mutual symbiotic relationship

mad_red
25th Jun 2008, 05:54
The shifter mod has suits that you can turn on and off. Great stuff.

That said, I wouldn't mind a suit that you can put on and that you automatically take off after it has had x hits or x amount of hazard exposure. And maybe some nanotech sticky climbing gloves. But that's already too much - unless they combined the time-based suit into an ammo-based generic suit.

But jock straps and nose guards and hair nets and... Kinda like Hot Shots part deux (:lol: anyone get that? So long ago...)

DX1 suits were fine. Don't stray too far from it.

AgnosticJive
25th Jun 2008, 06:05
Deus Ex 1 suits sucked, and so did your hot shots reference, and yet another person fails to understand what the hell nanotechnology implies.

iWait
25th Jun 2008, 06:07
Exactly, with nanotechnology you could reconstruct organic tissue at an atomic level, you wouldn't need suits, and if you had a delivery system they could destroy almost anything.

Blade_hunter
25th Jun 2008, 12:55
I know my grammar and my English is bad, I agree If someone see some errors of my part, I preferred to be corrected, than say my grammar is atrocious without explanations, and It's not because my English is bad that would say I've wrong in all facts.
In DX the suits are more useless because they're mean to work isn't adapted to DX
They work like quake 2 items and quake 2 isn't a game with exploration like DX
From DX 1 I want to keep most of suits models and the fact our environmental training upgrades their efficiency.
I want to toss the fact they can't be turned off and the fact they act like a timed power up

I never play to the shifter mod, but my idea is the same by the fact we can turn them on and off.
In DX we are a sort of cyborg because we the EMP devices and electic devices reduces quickly our bio energy.
A human with mechanical devices becomes a cyborg even if we are 80 % organic and 20 % mechanic.

The suits in DX can be a good stuff if they work properly, and a great addition to biomods, to the DX universe.

It's not because on DX 1 most of them were useless, that would say if we change their mean to work that remains the same.

The suits were useful in games but not in DX ? For me we aren't invulnerable and the interest of the suits is the fact we must manage them to get they benefits as long as possible.

And what we can see on JC's body, and Alex Denton body?
A beautiful bulletproof vest.
And you aren't forced to use the suits, like DX 1 you can avoid them if you think they are useless, but I'm certain with the fact we can turn the suits on and off and the fact the armors are only depleted if the armor is destroyed that can be an alternative or an addition to biomods.

The suits is a mean to give more valor to the damage system.
The fact we can use suits and the enemies can use them too can makes the game more interesting and more strategic.

If a soldier have an helmet to protect him we can shot his neck to take it dawn in one shot.
In DX the NPC's can make headshots and if we have an helmet that can be useful no ?
The biomods must be strategic not ultmate powers like DX 2 like the fact we can put our first biomod at the level 3 ....

Chemix
25th Jun 2008, 14:49
And that explanation is based on what? Even if that were the case, while inactive they would naturally recharge, not stay inactive and out of a charge until one uses some mysterious blue...gel? liquid? whatever the hell it is.

It's based off... basic biology courses that everyone takes in high school, and a small amount of extra curricular research, IE, medical books, and teh internets.

The human body normally has 10,000 volts of electricity flowing through it at all times. Almost every complex multi-cellular organism has some level of bio-electric flow; hell it's a large part of how sharks and some rays hunt, sensing the bio-electric current of other fish, represented as an Electromagnetic field.

The point is that draining that natural flow of bio-electric energy would make the person less functional in their basic actions. It could blur vision, make muscle response jumpy or slow, make recall much more difficult (remembering in any sense), and in the end, it would negate the benefits of the nanites. Also, that charge would take a while to come back, a long while.

Bio-cells, theoretically, would give the body extra bio-electric energy in a way that wouldn't involve trying to hold electricity in yourself after receiving an electrical shock, which would find a way to the ground eventually.

That said, I think some kind of primitive small scale generator, or high growth rate bacteria could regenerate the Bio-electric level.

iWait
25th Jun 2008, 20:11
You are not a cyborg if you have nanites, they are a separate entity and therefore are not you, they are just inside you. And the EMP destroys the "bio-cells" used to store electrical energy solely for the nanites. If you were in a strong enough EM field near you your brain could short out, does that mean you're a cyborg?

AgnosticJive
25th Jun 2008, 21:33
It's based off... basic biology courses that everyone takes in high school, and a small amount of extra curricular research, IE, medical books, and teh internets.

The human body normally has 10,000 volts of electricity flowing through it at all times. Almost every complex multi-cellular organism has some level of bio-electric flow; hell it's a large part of how sharks and some rays hunt, sensing the bio-electric current of other fish, represented as an Electromagnetic field.

The point is that draining that natural flow of bio-electric energy would make the person less functional in their basic actions. It could blur vision, make muscle response jumpy or slow, make recall much more difficult (remembering in any sense), and in the end, it would negate the benefits of the nanites. Also, that charge would take a while to come back, a long while.

Bio-cells, theoretically, would give the body extra bio-electric energy in a way that wouldn't involve trying to hold electricity in yourself after receiving an electrical shock, which would find a way to the ground eventually.

That said, I think some kind of primitive small scale generator, or high growth rate bacteria could regenerate the Bio-electric level.

10,000 volts...I've read that the average human current is roughly 5 eV (whereas voltage depends on the ohms...=x) In addition to that, a current between 100 and 200 milliamperes is fatal, while a voltage of 100-300 at 1,000 ohms or 1000-3000 at 10,000 ohms has the same effect. I'm thinking that your numbers might be a bit incorrect. Now again, we're going to assume that these nanites are based on real world development principles, their ability to sustain themselves off of your body's natural energy would mean that they are active, we're also going to assume that considering their size...they're not going to need a whole lot of energy to function, as a matter of fact based on their in-game ability to deconstruct and reconstruct matter, they must be able to split/fuse atoms which would yield energy on a MeV level, which would more then satisfy any energy requirements they could possibly ever need, so again we come back to the main point of all this. Why would one need an outside source to power nanites? even if they couldn't gain energy from fission/fusion their power would rely solely on your electrolyte levels, which in a video game would mean your health. You have health? your nanites have energy.

iWait
26th Jun 2008, 03:48
Well it's a game and a boatload of people would complain if you didn't need to use biocells to use your augmentations.

Tsumaru
26th Jun 2008, 04:21
Why would one need an outside source to power nanites?
The game would kind of suck if you could walk around permanently with regen, shields and cloak on.


even if they couldn't gain energy from fission/fusion their power would rely solely on your electrolyte levels, which in a video game would mean your health. You have health? your nanites have energy.
Because then you couldn't have regen mod!
And how could you come up with a viable balance of the health depletion for the actual benefit of the biomod. What good is a shield which reduces damage, if the very act of having the shield on in the first place makes you lose health?

AgnosticJive
26th Jun 2008, 04:41
it wouldn't make you lose health...do you lose health when you get tired? no. I mean, in a video game, it could work like...ooooh,I don't know, having the energy bar, but having it recharge when nothing is on? ohhhhh man, what a hard concept to understand! I hate it when games make you rely on items you don't need for stupid crap just to get by.

Tsumaru
26th Jun 2008, 05:03
So basically you're saying like a nightvision goggle type system in a lot of games (crysis, I think splinter cell was the same) etc. So it drains while it's on, and recharges while it's off?

Also, you're right, the concept isn't hard to understand. But apparently you just suck at articulating yourself.

iWait
26th Jun 2008, 05:09
Well maybe he is French, there seems to be a lot of Western Europeans on these forums.

AgnosticJive
26th Jun 2008, 09:12
So basically you're saying like a nightvision goggle type system in a lot of games (crysis, I think splinter cell was the same) etc. So it drains while it's on, and recharges while it's off?

Also, you're right, the concept isn't hard to understand. But apparently you just suck at articulating yourself.

I really don't think articulation is the issue since that wasn't my point until that post at which point it became an example of a more realistic alternative to biocells, the posts before were merely pointing out why they were useless from a practical/scientific standpoint with no regards to the impact of a lack of them/alternative to them in a video game.
(and I've never played splinter cell or crysis, although from my understanding crysis also uses the idea of a nanites so far as a nanite powered exo-suit, so I suppose that would be a little more appropriate given the topic.)


Well maybe he is French, there seems to be a lot of Western Europeans on these forums.

Uhhhh..."Location:Miami"

Nathan2000
26th Jun 2008, 09:52
Why would one need an outside source to power nanites?

Have you read the Deus Ex Postmortem?

When Gabe Newell from Valve came down and played our prototype missions, he correctly identified the utter lack of tension in our skill and augmentation use [...]. We took the criticism, and with it in mind, lead designer Harvey Smith revised the skill and augmentation systems pretty thoroughly, proposing an elegant system of consumable resources and time passage, all tied to skill level. This increased the tension level, provided new rewards, and allowed players to think and make informed decisions. Harvey also proposed a revision to the augmentation system, introducing an energy cost for their use (something I had foolishly rejected earlier on). Again, this gave us the opportunity to hand out items that would replenish energy -- in other words, we instantly had more things to hand out to players as rewards. It also introduced a level of tactical thinking to augmentation use that makes the system work.

Deus Ex is a game, not a scientific article. When realism stands in the way of fun, realism must be kicked out.

AgnosticJive
26th Jun 2008, 11:39
So basically...they had a system that didn't require a dependence on items, then decided to force them on players and label it a tactical choice. When realism stand in the way of fun, realism must be kicked out? I don't think hunting around for bots and items to replenish something that should at least replenish on it's own is fun, I find it to be tedious and pointless. Don't get me wrong, I loved Deus Ex... but it was far from perfect, in all of my most recent playthroughs I give myself all of the base augmentations and what is essentially an infinite energy level because I abhor running around looking for what are basically "mana potions".

That being said, I feel I've said all there is to be said on this subject, and so far this forum has yielded absolutely no new information on the game so I believe it is time for me to take another sabbatical. I'm SURE I'll be missed...;)

Nathan2000
26th Jun 2008, 13:07
So basically...they had a system that didn't require a dependence on items, then decided to force them on players and label it a tactical choice. When realism stand in the way of fun, realism must be kicked out? I don't think hunting around for bots and items to replenish something that should at least replenish on it's own is fun, I find it to be tedious and pointless. Don't get me wrong, I loved Deus Ex... but it was far from perfect, in all of my most recent playthroughs I give myself all of the base augmentations and what is essentially an infinite energy level because I abhor running around looking for what are basically "mana potions".

Well, the same applies to health and ammo. Is the need to search for ammunition and medkits ("health potions") or bots ("health fountains") fun? Yes, it is. Admit, that you would complain if that was changed. Why should energy be any different?

Blade_hunter
26th Jun 2008, 13:51
No games was perfect, and the definition of the perfection is different for everyone, I don't think we love and hate the same things in DX
Some persons prefers DX 2 instead of DX 1 for example
For me DX is the most perfect game even actually, even if technically Its sequel / alternate serie (Snowblind) and other games like Stalker and Bioshock are the most advanced on this point.

But please come back to the main thread: The suits.
I see some protestations against the suits, because in DX 1 they are useless and because the Biomods can avoid the use of the suits.
But the suggestion is to change the system of DX 1 to adapt this feature to the gameplay of the game

Freedom, Exploration, Strategy, and CHOICE
I don't want a Bioenergy battery that refill itself because, this don't force us to manage our biocells and our bioelectrical energy.
And makes our biomods more strategic to use.
The suits can be an alternate way to protect ourself
We have proposed some suits and pieces of armor for some of us.

The objective is to reintroduce them and make more importance to the damage localization, propose some items that can complete a Biomod and some items from the real life.
They're inconvenients are the fact they take inventory spaces.
They can be depleted and out of service because we have taken too much damage

The suits can introduce
The disguise
And give the importance to the Skills and the Damage system

Please I don't want again DX 2 simplifications

Chemix
26th Jun 2008, 15:33
10,000 volts...I've read that the average human current is roughly 5 eV (whereas voltage depends on the ohms...=x) In addition to that, a current between 100 and 200 milliamperes is fatal, while a voltage of 100-300 at 1,000 ohms or 1000-3000 at 10,000 ohms has the same effect. I'm thinking that your numbers might be a bit incorrect. Now again, we're going to assume that these nanites are based on real world development principles, their ability to sustain themselves off of your body's natural energy would mean that they are active, we're also going to assume that considering their size...they're not going to need a whole lot of energy to function, as a matter of fact based on their in-game ability to deconstruct and reconstruct matter, they must be able to split/fuse atoms which would yield energy on a MeV level, which would more then satisfy any energy requirements they could possibly ever need, so again we come back to the main point of all this. Why would one need an outside source to power nanites? even if they couldn't gain energy from fission/fusion their power would rely solely on your electrolyte levels, which in a video game would mean your health. You have health? your nanites have energy.

fission, fusion? Dissolving molecular bonds is a far stone's throw away from fission and making molecular bonds is about as far away from fusion. Nanites in this case are like cells, and cells are not nuclear powered... The difference is that you don't need a retrovirus to reprogram nanites, you can do it with electrical or radio signals, whereas cells require something more invasive and the changes won't take place till the cell divides and makes a new cell with the new DNA. Perhaps they could be fueled by fuel in the bloodstream like cells, but that removes their food and weakens them. Bio-electrics is the most efficient way to do it, and yes I do think it's a good idea to have them regenerate.

mad_red
26th Jun 2008, 16:06
and so did your hot shots reference

Fair enough :(


and yet another person fails to understand what the hell nanotechnology implies.

The suits and gloves could be more mundane. And I think I understand nanotech well enough. It can even imply the alteration of you enviroment as in the DX:IW endgame, but those are advanced applications. There are many levels of development and production cost, especially prior to the Universal Constructor technology. Not all nanotechnology necessarily has the means of powering itself and locomotion built in.

I guess it really depends on your playstyle and what type of genre you want to play. I don't mind running out of bioenergy and having worry about how I'm going to handle the next encounter. I also like to explore around and see where I end up (maybe I get rewarded, or maybe I run into the greasel). I'm not the run-and-gun, keep-it-coming kind of guy.

Anyway, I used the suits in DX1 (more in the shifter mod) and I don't give a fling if they were realistic or not. Tweak them a little and they're fine IMHO. I also liked aug choice between regen and bioenergy conservation.

AeonHUN
26th Jun 2008, 18:23
I think the person in the first post missed the gam title, this is Deus Ex not Rainbow Six Vegas:D (no offens)

Only a few wests and suits are needed it think, the perfect equipment was in the 1st DX. Not too many but all you need; it would be good to have a bigger freedom in customizing your character, but i don't mean eyebrowns and thing like that, but coats, wests and stuff.

Suits:

hazard suit - toxin, radiation...

ballastic - weapons fire and granades

under water - ...

gas mask -

Blade_hunter
26th Jun 2008, 21:49
Eh ? :( I never wanted DX becomes a R6 like.
Stalker uses a lot of weapons and items and it's not R6 :(
Most RPG games have a lot of items
Some FPS games have a lot of items SS2 and DX have a good amount of them for old games
For infiltration games we have more tools
Some adventure games have tools and various items.
I've played to some old games with the damage location like SOF
Even if this games aren't the greatest games they have some good things.

Unfortunately for me you aren't only to tell me that :( It's not because I want to add stuff and expand each part of DX gameplay that would be say I want to throw the core of the game, and the idea will change the concept of the game

The main criticism of the suits aren't really on the suits themselves I critic their mean of working
And I don't want DX becomes a game with a suit based gameplay
And I don't think R6 have a localized damage system like DX 1

I never wanted to transform this game to an other game, I want to keep the main concept and add some new features.
DX 3 must innovate not stay with the bases...
DX 2 fails because it don't innovate since old games and it's prequel
DX 1 Innovates !! when this game was created that was the reason of it's success and greatness.

If R6 never existed I proposed the same because I'm not a R6 fan and I just play this game more as a try than as a true play.

dxfan94
27th Jun 2008, 14:00
You dont need most of these. Thats why we have augmentations. "THE WHOLE POINT OF THE NEW STORY LINE IS THE PROBLEM OF AUGMENTATIONS." We dont need all that crap no offense.

DuranArtora
27th Jun 2008, 20:09
The individual armor parts are a bit much, but there are some interesting ideas. The Hazard/Hazmat suit having an oxygen supply is nice, kind of like Alpha Prime.
The Asbestos suit would come in handy, but you might want to change it to Flame-retardent suit, unless getting cancer is a side effect of using it. :rolleyes:
That energy shield suit would be vulnerable to EMP attacks, wouldn't it? Finally, why would the rebreather have an "oxygen supply"? Doesn't it separate oxygen molecules from the water, making them usable by the body?

Blade_hunter
28th Jun 2008, 10:24
I never play to this game but I've thought about the oxygen supply because the suit is isolated when it's activated and we need oxygen
For the asbestos suit I used the same item name as unreal 1 but your proposal sounds better and more futuristic
This is a weak point of the shield but it can protect our bioelectrical energy during one powerful EMP attack.

And the last idea can be better than use oxygen supply's but it exists compact oxygen supply's as the large supply's

Perhaps my armor separation can be reduced by boots with built in knee pads, the body armor, the helmet and the gloves
after all it's to give some interests in the DX damage system

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jun 2008, 02:46
I have a question. Suppose you have a swimming suit, or whatever. You use it. You run out of oxygen. It sits in your inventory, empty and useless, until you find an oxygen tank (or whatever). Then it's refilled, and good to go.
How is this any different to using a rebreather which runs out, is removed from your inventory, and you can't do anything until you find another one?

Or have I misunderstood something in your proposal.

Furthermore, I still don't understand the concept of two swimming things. If one degrades walking/running ability... then take it off? No problem. Or are you saying it is *permanently on*? In which case, I don't like the idea at all.

I think folks are forgetting that there's limited space to hold such items (and in keeping to the RPG role, the space will again be limited). I didn't use the armor, since all the slots were filled. GEP gun (for bots and cameras); sniper rifle; assault rifle or flame thrower; silencer pistol; tear gas; LAMs; food (usually soy); drink; baton; lockpicks; electronic tool; and maybe stun gun. Think I used the rebreather only once.

The RPG in this game will limit what we can carry with us. So if it's permanent, it's going to take up real estate for weapons and other things (food/drink and mod packs/aug canisters and upgrades, etc.). JC just can't be lugging everything around and still be agile to fight.

pHdeus
29th Jun 2008, 13:51
This would allow an underwater environment and entirely new type of game play. Very interesting!

:o

jordan_a
29th Jun 2008, 16:53
I think the person in the first post missed the game title, this is Deus Ex not Rainbow Six Vegas:D (no offens)This game doesn't deserve the R6 appellation.

jcp28
29th Jun 2008, 22:38
I think folks are forgetting that there's limited space to hold such items (and in keeping to the RPG role, the space will again be limited). I didn't use the armor, since all the slots were filled. GEP gun (for bots and cameras); sniper rifle; assault rifle or flame thrower; silencer pistol; tear gas; LAMs; food (usually soy); drink; baton; lockpicks; electronic tool; and maybe stun gun. Think I used the rebreather only once.

The RPG in this game will limit what we can carry with us. So if it's permanent, it's going to take up real estate for weapons and other things (food/drink and mod packs/aug canisters and upgrades, etc.). JC just can't be lugging everything around and still be agile to fight.

The question is, how much of a RPG game will this be? I expect that the console release means that such features will be dumbed down at least somewhat.
Besides, some choices could be too easy. I know that in DX 1, it was really no contest when it came to figuring out if I wanted the Aqualung or Environmental Resistance, since most of the water areas are fairly small. But I might not mind an Aqualung if there were more large water areas. Will the development team try to balance it more? I don't know, but I agree that we could end up getting rid of ballistic armor in favor of the aug with the same purpose. But it just wouldn't be a good idea to get rid of it too soon.

Blade_hunter
30th Jun 2008, 01:13
Hum your questions are interesting and I will try to respond to it with my own vision of the suits because they are at the proposal state.

The suits

The suits can have means of uses and means of working
The inventory form size and the suits size will determinate if they are useful or not.

In DX the suits acts like a power up and take one slot each the size of them doesn't affect they're size on the inventory the nanotech goggles have the same size as the ballistic armor
The suits when activated can't be turned of and removed from the inventory

This mean of working isn't proper to the DX concept and core, the game wants we explore the levels even if we can play as an assault tank the suits in DX 1 aren't made for the DX gameplay, they act like the augmentation of the same function and the only differences are the fact we can't turn it off when activated, it take an inventory slot and it use the environmental training skill to be more effective and work longer.


These suits can be applied to enemies and nano augmented people, mech mods etc ...
This can make the enemies more tactical to combat.

My DX experience

I want to talk about my DX aug choice and I choose most of times the aqualung aug because when I want to go on hazard zones I can find an Hazard suit in most locations.
And the water loactions are in several numbers I used this aug because when I go in underwater locations most of times I can't find the rebreather, the first was found in Sam carter's armory if I remember...

Water locations are on the NSF generator's and the hell's kitchen's sewer, the NSF base before the 747 airport and before the base itself, the Ocean's lab and the submarine base. In the cathedral and in the catacombs we have some water locations to infiltrate easier some locations.
I don't think in the first DX they were unbalanced but we aren't forced to use most of theses passages but I wanted to use them I earned some XP and use some strategic positions to engage a combat in some locations.

A part of my concept and the reasons of some choices

If I give hitpoints to armor items is a mean to differentiate the ballistic protection and the armor pieces.
The ballistic protection when activated eats your bioenergy and act as a sort of shield filter against bullets and physical attacks.
The ballistic protection filter the damages and all of them pistol bullets and assault rifle bullets has no differences against this protection.
In DX 1 this mod and the suit act as a filter but the differences are mentioned before

My armor take inventory slots but the pieces of it give some importance to the damage system and is different to use
Even if I make a full armor item that can protect every body part the Hitpoints make the differences.

A bullet proof vest is destroyed when we taken too much attacks from bullets
An helmet too etc ....

Suits in games

In the game unreal the armors acts like filters but with hitpoints except the shieldbelt that protect ourself at 100 %
In the game Gore ultimate soldier the armors can protect specific parts and helmets protect us against headshots and the enemies can use theses suits too.
In the game Sin and wages of sin the armors are divided to 3 parts
head chest and legs
In soldier of fortune we have only a bullet proof vest, but the enemies, some of them are interesting to fight and if we don't destroy their armor we can wear it to repair our armor or got the armor if our armor were destroyed


Suits RPG or FPS

The suits is an FPS and RPG part of DX but they work more like FPS power ups in DX
The game SS2 is the same kind of game as DX, a mix of genres RPG,FPS and infiltration even if in SS2 the infiltration is more the fact we must avoid the cams.
In SS 2 we have a body slot for suits, the arm for the weapons and the implants for a boost.
To turn off a suit or an implant in SS2 we must remove them of theses slots, this suit is the powered armor, the rest of armors are a sort of damage filters with a lower efficiency of the powered armor.
In old FPS the armors give a protection and acts like a filter they are a sort of upgrade, or a power up when they are limited on time, like the quad damage from quake or the U damage from Unreal,

The mod shifter as I can read the suits of DX can turned on and off when we want, for me that's good, but we can try to make a newer concepts even if my concept is more a sort of mix of existing things

I give examples from games because I have only these examples to display the fact I want to change the DX armor concept because this concept didn't work well for the game

My scuba gear when wared give us agility speed when we are underwater, but in ground we can't walk with ease because we have the palms on our feet.
We must unwear the suit to return to our normal moves and agility
If we don't have an oxygen bottle we can use the suit without use the oxygen bottle, like the real life
For armor pieces I proposed them with hitpoints to give a sort of limited use or no hitpoints that can work as most RPG games a simple damage filter.

Final part

When a thing don't work well I prefer to correct the bad part of it than remove it, the shifter mod makes the same not with the same concept and idea but they correct

I don't want to say my concept is the best, and blah blah blah, I just want to keep a good DX thing but change their function to a function that could be a good mean of working.
I don't talk about a precise concept because no one says if it's better to get a sort of invulnerable armor and suits that can protect us as a damage filter or use an armor with hitpoints we can wear when we want.

The concept was mentioned in a post before (not the first)

The only other proposal found is "like the shifter mod"(DX armors concept that can be turned on and off when we want).

Why I want the suits

I want the suits because it's realistic, it's from DX 1, it's useful and a good tool.
I want to differentiate the suits and the biomods to don't make one of them obsolete
I want to make them more useful than they were on DX 1, but keep always the choice to use them or not.
I want to make an alternative and an addition to the biomods
I want to see enemies with suits that can make a challenge to defeat them.

How much DX is an RPG game ?
When I see the two games this is much variable and we can make the game more RPG than DX or less like DX 2. and the suits aren't the main thing that can make the game more RPG than before.

I don't think I give the full response but it can be a part of it

jcp28
1st Jul 2008, 21:31
This doesn't really change the fact that we don't need a slot for each part of your body a certain piece of armor covers. I don't mind RPG elements, but I think certain things like inventory need to be slimmed down to the point where you have to think a little more about what suits you want to take. Should bigger suits be bulky, then?

Another thing. I said I found environmental augs more useful because I suffered sustained damage while in toxic barrel areas as opposed to the Aqualung, of which I only needed two rebreathers after upgrading to Level 2 swimming in DX1. After that, using a combo of Level 2 Environmental Resistance aug with the Hazmat suit was usually enough to minimize damage sustained in hazardous areas.

So I pretty much think the game needs to be balanced out by limiting the amount of suits you can carry, while hopefully allowing compensation in part on the choices you make. But large suits should weigh you down the same large weapons like the GEP gun do, making one think a little more on where to use them.

Kevyne-Shandris
1st Jul 2008, 23:58
The question is, how much of a RPG game will this be? I expect that the console release means that such features will be dumbed down at least somewhat.
Besides, some choices could be too easy. I know that in DX 1, it was really no contest when it came to figuring out if I wanted the Aqualung or Environmental Resistance, since most of the water areas are fairly small. But I might not mind an Aqualung if there were more large water areas. Will the development team try to balance it more? I don't know, but I agree that we could end up getting rid of ballistic armor in favor of the aug with the same purpose. But it just wouldn't be a good idea to get rid of it too soon.

Aqualung sure was needed on the Oceanlab levels. Even had some good hidey holes underwater to explore. ;)

It's a hybrid game, so RPG is in it. How much? That's a good question, because some RPG elements wouldn't have a place in DX3, but some would.

Useable RPG elements...

1. Personalization of our character, much like the Oblivion character generator. For MP, this is needed or we'll all look alike (remember the old MP??). With the ability to save a couple profiles (for online or offline personaes).

2. Mission base. HQ or whatnot with a storage vault or locker for our gear, so we can dump it. PLUS, we can go back within game if necessary (especially if we're topped out, and need to store gear to get better gear -- it's the only way to be able to take/use any armor, as those limited slots fill up fast with weapons and food). This is also our bio and computer lab -- I hope they give us mini-games to build weapons/augs and do some hacking/cracking. No better place than from home. BTW, gun racks and armor displays adds a nice RPG but functional FPS touch -- run in, grab your gear, suit up and do your thing deal.

3. Real skill based leveling. Earn it by using it. If you swim like a fish, your swim skill will be master level over time (not really interested in buying skills with points or money).

4. Money. We get money not for just completing a mission, from cracking motherloads. Use the money to buy better gear -- legit market or black market (with a nice selection of gear to chose from -- like 5 of each, with the top tier stuff needing serious money).

4. Food/Drink - helps on healing like in DX, and yes, it'll be cool we can even get drunk again...lol.

5. Side quests - by NPCs for extras. Not necessary to complete the game, but a few for extra perks, and to keep hardcore fans busy while exploring levels.

6. Detail stats - FPS or RPG fan likes these. K/D/avoided/mission completed/longevity/vehicles used/vehicles destroyed/things created/things fixed, you get the picture.

RPG can blend well in a FPS to fill out the character some, and keep interest in more than one path to the end. For the map explorers, the ability to level up skills like navigation would be a sweet bonus (e.g., high navigation skill allows the player to not get lost in tunnel mazes, the compass glows the correct direction to interesting/important exits). Add the augs, and DX3 could be a sweet hybrid again.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2008, 10:24
The things you mentioned is our vision and your gameplay style, we didn't make the same things on this game, we don't use the same biomods and the same equipment. The suits isn't a big feature, they can be bigger if we have additional heavy graphics, but they were on DX 1 and keep the fact we can chose between the biomods and them.

We aren't forced to use them, and we have proposed some balance on our proposals.

But an other thing is the fact we can't use all suits at the same time ....

TrickyVein
30th Aug 2008, 13:51
Denton never changed clothes, always wearing the same trench coat and body armor...

I'd like to be able to wear a tux.

Jerion
30th Aug 2008, 15:32
He might be a super agent, but he's not james bond! :lol:

Voltaire
30th Aug 2008, 20:21
He might be a super agent, but he's not james bond! :lol:

Tricky puts forwards a good point though. The game is about choices. It let's you choose how you speak, act and look. Why not extend this choice to some outfit-changes?

It could open up the freedom of the game and add more depth. I for one would have liked the idea of only being able to get into Lucky Money by having a Red Arrow tatoo, suit or ring. Each could be acquired in a different way in Hong Kong, and each would get you admitted into the club.

gh0s7
30th Aug 2008, 23:49
(....)
3. Real skill based leveling. Earn it by using it. If you swim like a fish, your swim skill will be master level over time (not really interested in buying skills with points or money).
(....)

In Oblivion (which not only uses a levelling system like that, but you also referred to it in your first point), a player would need to run for over 90 Real-Life hours to take the Athletics skill from 5 to 100 (swimming, IIRC, would take around 60 hours). Not really interested in spending hours swimming around the Liberty Island, trying to master the skill. :(

gamer0004
31st Aug 2008, 07:43
Tricky puts forwards a good point though. The game is about choices. It let's you choose how you speak, act and look. Why not extend this choice to some outfit-changes?

It could open up the freedom of the game and add more depth. I for one would have liked the idea of only being able to get into Lucky Money by having a Red Arrow tatoo, suit or ring. Each could be acquired in a different way in Hong Kong, and each would get you admitted into the club.

It's Deus Ex, not a fantasy RPG. I don't want quests. I want a story line that is good.

TrickyVein
29th Sep 2008, 13:25
Voltaire, I dunno what you're saying about getting tattoos and *****, I just want to be able to look flashy or look like a civilian when it would be appropriate to do so in game.

A really nonessential idea that I wouldn't care one bit about if it were not implemented in the sequel.

LatwPIAT
29th Sep 2008, 17:35
The purpose of the suits are to further gameplay and allow the player to do new stuff. The rebreather allows us to go underwater longer, the Hazmat Suit allows us to survive radiation, etc.

An idea I'd be interested in is a Faraday Suit that negates EMP effects, and other electronic stuff.

Romeo
29th Sep 2008, 20:15
I'm completely with Blade_Hunter. Hands down, my favorite in games is choice, which Deus Ex offered plenty of when approaching certain situations. The ability to alter your clothing simply offers a little more choice.

general kane
30th Sep 2008, 14:35
will i think thy should allow u to customize your own gear i mean if thy are saying its an rp why the hell wont thy let me play it as an rper . :mad2:

foxberg
30th Sep 2008, 15:09
I think the only thing that's missing from the original post is a reinforced Kevlar condom with a Velcro balls strap.

LatwPIAT
1st Oct 2008, 14:16
will i think thy should allow u to customize your own gear i mean if thy are saying its an rp why the hell wont thy let me play it as an rper . :mad2:

Because if it was truly an RPG in the sense you mean it would be called "Grand Theft Nanoaug" Deus Ex didn't let you run around and do anything, it gave you a path, and the storyline was extremely linear with hints of choice (Help Paul/Escape, give French thugs zyme from the bakery, etc...) Do we really need to change clothes? It would probably come off as gimicy. What purpose would it serve? Unless we're talking a wearable disguise, I don't think would have any purpose. Even cigarettes and alcohol had a purpose in Deus Ex. Granted, they didn't have any beneficial effects, but they served a purpose. (Kill you.)

qJohnnyp
18th Jan 2009, 17:21
OLED Camo- A suit of OLEDs with cameras that show an image of what's behind you on them, a primitive sort of cloak, would use some kind of rechargable power source, but you'd still be visible to bots and cameras and lasers, just harder to see by people.


Now add Metamaterial thermoptic camo and you've got total invisibility against everything
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=emerging&id=18292
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/21971/?a=f

I really hope for optical camo to appear in Deus Ex 3 and mentioning this technology would make the game even more realistic

Necros
19th Jan 2009, 01:53
It's Deus Ex, not a fantasy RPG. I don't want quests. I want a story line that is good.
You don't want side missions? :scratch: I hope they won't listen to you. :rasp:

gamer0004
19th Jan 2009, 18:26
You don't want side missions? :scratch: I hope they won't listen to you. :rasp:

I said I don't want quests. Of course, it is kind of a matter of semantics, but most "quests" are some random jobs you do for money or items, set in certain setting (often standard medieval crap *cough* Oblivion).
I want a great storyline, and of course some "side" missions. But they should make sense and actually contribute to the general plot.

LatwPIAT
19th Jan 2009, 18:42
I said I don't want quests. Of course, it is kind of a matter of semantics, but most "quests" are some random jobs you do for money or items, set in certain setting (often standard medieval crap *cough* Oblivion).
I want a great storyline, and of course some "side" missions. But they should make sense and actually contribute to the general plot.

Yeah, missions in Deus Ex always made sense. Stealing zyme from a French baker was paramount to defeating Bob Page, as was rescuing Sahra Renton from pimps.

gamer0004
19th Jan 2009, 18:50
Yeah, missions in Deus Ex always made sense. Stealing zyme from a French baker was paramount to defeating Bob Page, as was rescuing Sahra Renton from pimps.

Hey, you must be one of those gamers who don't care about continuity. Nice to meet you. You totally have a point: who wants a good storyline in a game? That's like eating at a good restaurant instead of McDonalds. I mean, it's both food! It's only about the calories, right?

To be serious: I hope you understand the value of those small details/subplots for the main storyline.

Spyhopping
19th Jan 2009, 18:56
I said I don't want quests. Of course, it is kind of a matter of semantics, but most "quests" are some random jobs you do for money or items, set in certain setting (often standard medieval crap *cough* Oblivion).
I want a great storyline, and of course some "side" missions. But they should make sense and actually contribute to the general plot.


Yeah, missions in Deus Ex always made sense. Stealing zyme from a French baker was paramount to defeating Bob Page, as was rescuing Sahra Renton from pimps.

I think the two of you each have a valid point, and that they don't have to clash. I don't want to be running around doing stupid pointless random side quests, but at the same time in DX, the random side quests that were thought up were really fun and added to the quality and depth of the game.
Some of them turned out for me to be the most memorable parts of it.

LatwPIAT
19th Jan 2009, 19:52
Hey, you must be one of those gamers who don't care about continuity. Nice to meet you. You totally have a point: who wants a good storyline in a game? That's like eating at a good restaurant instead of McDonalds. I mean, it's both food! It's only about the calories, right?

To be serious: I hope you understand the value of those small details/subplots for the main storyline.

He he he heheheheheheheheheheHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHeheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh he he he HAHAHAHAHAHAH hehehe he he he!

Seriously? Me? I got called out in a gaming forum for taking tone, continuity and storyline in a game too seriously. My favourite games include Deus Ex, Fallout and Planescape: Torment, and you claim, from my statement that there were some elements in Deus Ex that weren't directly related to the plot that I don't like storylines. Based on the same logic, you clearly don't like freedom and should starve to death outside McDonalds, to use your own analogy against you.

Selling zyme to French thugs? Gives me, well money. Money which sole purpose is to allow me to buy extra equipment. How is that different from helping a street give birth to an alley or teach a guy about crop rotation so I can buy a tattoo or a new gun?

GmanPro
19th Jan 2009, 22:10
The side missions gave DX flavor. It helped to give the illusion that the game world was alive and dynamically reacting to your decisions. If anybody thinks that side missions are dumb, then all they have to do is ignore them.

Side quests need to add to/support the main quest, and try not to interfere or distract in any way.

hem dazon 90
20th Jan 2009, 00:19
He he he heheheheheheheheheheHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHeheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh he he he HAHAHAHAHAHAH hehehe he he he!

Seriously? Me? I got called out in a gaming forum for taking tone, continuity and storyline in a game too seriously. My favourite games include Deus Ex, Fallout and Planescape: Torment, and you claim, from my statement that there were some elements in Deus Ex that weren't directly related to the plot that I don't like storylines. Based on the same logic, you clearly don't like freedom and should starve to death outside McDonalds, to use your own analogy against you.

Selling zyme to French thugs? Gives me, well money. Money which sole purpose is to allow me to buy extra equipment. How is that different from helping a street give birth to an alley or teach a guy about crop rotation so I can buy a tattoo or a new gun?


just ignore him from what I can see gamer 0004is unable to be reasoned with

Blade_hunter
20th Jan 2009, 00:49
Eh we got a topic about side quests :D

here it's the suits please talk in an other thread there is one about quests :(

Necros
20th Jan 2009, 11:32
Eh we got a topic about side quests :D

here it's the suits please talk in an other thread there is one about quests :(
Yeah, well, he said that and I couldn't resist to post that comment. :o :D But to be on topic too: If they spend enough time to fully implement this feature, then all right, I won't object, could be useful and fun but if they can't do it properly, don't do it at all.


I said I don't want quests. Of course, it is kind of a matter of semantics, but most "quests" are some random jobs you do for money or items, set in certain setting (often standard medieval crap *cough* Oblivion).
I want a great storyline, and of course some "side" missions. But they should make sense and actually contribute to the general plot.
Yeah, semantics, I'm tired of people who get hung up on these things... :rolleyes: Like LatwPIAT said, some of the side-missions/quests, whatever were just like that, simple things you could do to get more money. And I want stuff like that again, and of course many other kinds of side-missions/quests/whatever with some connections to the main storyline. The non-related missions can be fun and they can make the game a bit longer too, I'm not against them at all. :)

gamer0004
20th Jan 2009, 15:59
My favourite games include Deus Ex, Fallout and Planescape: Torment, and you claim, from my statement that there were some elements in Deus Ex that weren't directly related to the plot that I don't like storylines.

I didn't say they had to be directly related to the plot. When I said "they should contribute to the general storyline" and you reacted with those remarks, it kind of implied you didn't think they contributed in any way to the game world. And it totally did. One of the main themes was the state of the world (financial crisis, medical crisis, drugs, alcoholics etc.). So those drugs dealers did indeed contribute to the storyline, but not directly.



Selling zyme to French thugs? Gives me, well money. Money which sole purpose is to allow me to buy extra equipment. How is that different from helping a street give birth to an alley or teach a guy about crop rotation so I can buy a tattoo or a new gun?

You did those missions for money? There was an abundance of credits, and yet many people actually did most of the side missions. Even when they didn't spend a single credit during the whole game.

Blade_hunter
20th Jan 2009, 17:27
The thing is we need a game that allow people to do what they want; even if we can't do everything some freedom in a game, give the sensation for players, that its them that control the game and not the game that control players.

Side missions even if they give us nothing useful can be fun to comply, if NPCs wants a thief and gives you something, We are free to comply the objective or not.

DX isn't a full sandbox game, but some things allow us to make it a bit sandbox like, In DX I appreciate that thing even if at the beginning we got a low number of opportunities to make different things than our mission.

I think we need eventually to chose a side or even using "diplomatics" to change some things, it can be useful or totally useless, but we can do something by honor, perhaps its because we want to incarnate a particular character, get some stuff, upgrades and many things we can expect by accomplishing a mission.

I don't want all missions that give us a praise but sometimes even if the praise can be found during the mission, and not given by the any friendly character.

DX uses the same mechanisms as many RPGs but the form is sometimes a bit different.