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lucinvampire
26th Dec 2013, 01:23
I was re-reading the blog posts earlier and noticed two class names mentioned that might suggest future human classes…


Assassins of the eastern lakes to the resilient Desert Stalkers of the far south

I wonder if these will introduced and if so what might they be like…?

I see Desert Stalkers being maybe very Arabian like in appearance – it’d be cool if you could have an attack camel but that isn’t ever going to happen :lol:. The Assassins being very much the traditional assassin looking type guys – maybe with some sort of smoke distraction tactics (though I just keep picturing Assassins Creed here :D).

Any thoughts? Do you think they are just names mentioned in passing or maybe future hints? What do you think they would be like?

Basically this thread is for discussion and ideas relating to possible human classes - the vampires have their own thread - so why not the humans? :D

Vallass
26th Dec 2013, 19:14
I thought the same thing when I read that post. My guess would be that the Stalkers would be very fast attackers, maybe not do alot of damage but whatever they hit with slows a vamp considerably. Or the opposite could be true I suppose. Slow attacks that immobilize for a short time. Considering they're called stalkers, my assumption is they'll slow if not trap vamps out-right.

As for the assassins, being on the eastern lakes means they probably used water based abilities to end their enemies. Maybe sneak up on an enemy and throw water down their throat or something. Maybe water balloons as weapons (yes, I know it sounds childish) since it doesn't take much water to down a vamp.

diuqSehT
1st Jan 2014, 02:50
Attack Camels ---- in case the beast-riding mechanics are... problematic... just change the beast into a camel and say the awkward controls are because of the hump.

Also, WHOA:
for the water-fighting lake guys & gals----
Water Bladder Armor !!!!!!!!!!!
I know! WHOA, right?
This would so happen in a vampire fighting world like Nosgoth where they're starved for technology like guns with silver bullets. If you don't have advanced science to fight vampires with, what you'd do is.......
harvest a bunch of sheep's bladders and the kind of intestines we use to wrap hotdogs in today, and instead just fill these with water and wear it over your major arteries, strapped under or over your tunic, depending on whether your priority is looking fashionable or maximum water defense. Then, you're a walking talking water balloon. On a peaceful day it keeps you cool, and when a vampire bites you they're going to be gargling the wrong liquid instead of feasting on the red stuff.



Next:

The main human classes seem to have already been done or suggested, so here's something experimental right out of the butt:
How about an
"I'm in the process of turning!" class.
Like, say not every turned vampire bursts out of the nasty glowing twitching spider sac thing and is instantly converted into a hardcore vampire. Maybe some people are turned under not-the-best circumstances and escape or whatever, so they're slowly turning but they're still holding on to their humanity as long as they can. They know they can't hold out forever, so they do something every day to slow down the transition to give them extra time as a human. Like living with AIDS, perhaps some have even found a way to stall the transition completely. What do they do? Uhhhh, I don't know. Burn their blood? (some version of self-flaggelation, Nosgoth style). Or perhaps it's common practice for these halfway-turned people to abuse a magic spell item that's supposed to be devoted to keeping vampires away from human settlements but now they've taken it and are using it selfishly to keep their own vampirism at bay? They know they're living on borrowed time, no matter what the method is. This could develop into a really kinky class, because what if they have some of the vampires' strength at melee fighting.... and the humans who are under seige start using this half-turned human as their champion.... feeding her or him their own blood by choice to power up the half-turned character as a fist-fighting champ for their side! The one who could hold the line for them if the front gate gets breached! The rest of the time, these humans would of course be pariahs, shunned and kicked out by everyone except their loved ones who'd often try to hide them under blankets to keep the truth from getting out, after which the townspeople will probably drag this person out into the street and execute or exile them outside the city gates.

So it'd be tricky for this character class (not so much during the game, when everyone's just fighting, but their backstory is that they have no home with vampire or human society). Every time they used their emerging vampire strengths, it'd bring them closer to turning completely, but they'd need to use their new abilities to stay alive as a human forced to fend for him/herself, too. Uh, how about a "blend in" or "sneak attack" ability based on how players who are playing as vampires would see (sniff) this character and their senses would tell them that you're a fellow vampire. (Like, maybe on their screens they'd even SEE you as a full fledged fledgling because that's what their nose is telling them, you know? You might even appear as a doppleganger lookalike for one of their vampire teammates! And only when you were already within striking distance would their HUD update to identify you as half-turned (human team).

lucinvampire
2nd Jan 2014, 11:57
Slow attacks that immobilize for a short time. Considering they're called stalkers, my assumption is they'll slow if not trap vamps out-right.

I really like these ideas :D - maybe like you say a slow/cautious type figure that packs a lot of punch with traps
I see people like as if they are from that Prince of Perisa movie.


As for the assassins, being on the eastern lakes means they probably used water based abilities to end their enemies.

Water is always a good idea against vamps...though childish - water balloons would be really effective :D and who doesn't like a good water-balloon fight?


for the water-fighting lake guys & gals----
Water Bladder Armor !!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t know if to laugh or cry – the visuals on this would be pretty wrong - it'd be like wearing sausage armour lol but it’s effectiveness would be awesome!


"I'm in the process of turning!" class.

This would be a pretty cool idea – how long does it take for a vamp in Nosgoth to turn? – is it like in some movies it takes a while or is it more instant?!? The idea of someone trying to defy their vampiric legacy would be pretty sweet – a vampire who is on the human side because being a vampire sucks – you can’t even take a bath or anything…
Though I suppose this would error up the vamps vs humans style of the game ;)

Sluagh
9th Jan 2014, 11:53
Water Bladder Armor !!!!!!!!!!!
I know! WHOA, right?
This would so happen in a vampire fighting world like Nosgoth where they're starved for technology like guns with silver bullets. If you don't have advanced science to fight vampires with, what you'd do is.......
harvest a bunch of sheep's bladders and the kind of intestines we use to wrap hotdogs in today, and instead just fill these with water and wear it over your major arteries, strapped under or over your tunic, depending on whether your priority is looking fashionable or maximum water defense. Then, you're a walking talking water balloon. On a peaceful day it keeps you cool, and when a vampire bites you they're going to be gargling the wrong liquid instead of feasting on the red stuff.




That actually sounds quite cool, although if a Rahabim came along (when they do) you might be a bit stuffed if they're resistant. But I do love the DIY ethic of it.




Next:

The main human classes seem to have already been done or suggested, so here's something experimental right out of the butt:
How about an
"I'm in the process of turning!" class.


In terms of the "turning vampire" thing it sounds like an awesome idea for an event. But I not sure about a fully fledged class. If anyone has ever played Guild Wars 2, they make it very easy to pick up weapons which then can be used to temporarily modify your character. If a human player could temporarily take on the mantle of "turned" or "sired" or something that might be an interesting game dynamic, but as the exact lore of how vampires are created in Nosgoth is a bit vague, it would have to be carefully developed. You've also got to factor in all the potential designs for this individual, because there are all the different clans of course. If we assume that it takes time and effort to create a vampire, than it in the interests of the vamps to protect an individual like that, and the humans to destroy them. But in the event the player doesn't quite know what they want- they are confused - so they attack both (before eventually coming round to the dark side of course, mwhahahaha)

Vampmaster
9th Jan 2014, 12:27
Maybe there should be a giant human class. Those were present in Defiance and since we've been told the Turelim in this game are fledglings, it would make sense that the strongest vampire class would choose the strongest humans to sire as vampires. Maybe they were indigenous to a specific part of Nosgoth. Since hammers are a melee weapon, maybe they could use a shotput or a large sling type weapon. Perhaps they'd be former gladiators - still originally kept as slaves, but well nourished and trained for combat since birth.

Sluagh
9th Jan 2014, 13:00
Maybe there should be a giant human class. Those were present in Defiance and since we've been told the Turelim in this game are fledglings, it would make sense that the strongest vampire class would choose the strongest humans to sire as vampires. Maybe they were indigenous to a specific part of Nosgoth. Since hammers are a melee weapon, maybe they could use a shotput or a large sling type weapon. Perhaps they'd be former gladiators - still originally kept as slaves, but well nourished and trained for combat since birth.

That does sound quite a cool idea. The area where the Nemesis came from was a bit "fantasy barbarian," you could kind of connect them to that region somehow. A shotput that could knock a vampire's head clean off would be cool, and you are right, surely the Turelim would try and find the biggest humans to start with if they're into growth and size (although I still think they need a bit of a trim, to get them more in line with SR. Come on devs, put those guys on a cholesterol free diet! :P).

Vampmaster
19th Jan 2014, 11:57
That does sound quite a cool idea. The area where the Nemesis came from was a bit "fantasy barbarian," you could kind of connect them to that region somehow. A shotput that could knock a vampire's head clean off would be cool, and you are right, surely the Turelim would try and find the biggest humans to start with if they're into growth and size (although I still think they need a bit of a trim, to get them more in line with SR. Come on devs, put those guys on a cholesterol free diet! :P).

This is the kind of sling weapon I think the giant class should use:
http://2012ojhsancient.weebly.com/sling.html

Of course, if the wielder is giant, the weapon should be as well. Like the size of a beachball.

Yamrel
20th Jan 2014, 04:03
Maybe there should be a giant human class. Those were present in Defiance and since we've been told the Turelim in this game are fledglings, it would make sense that the strongest vampire class would choose the strongest humans to sire as vampires. Maybe they were indigenous to a specific part of Nosgoth. Since hammers are a melee weapon, maybe they could use a shotput or a large sling type weapon. Perhaps they'd be former gladiators - still originally kept as slaves, but well nourished and trained for combat since birth.

I agree with this, but I believe that they should still use a hammer or maybe ax and shield

Monkeythumbz
20th Jan 2014, 21:32
I agree with this, but I believe that they should still use a hammer or maybe ax and shield

That's a good idea and would definitely look good, but as melee weapons they would potentially negatively impact the game's asymmetrical combat dynamic.

GenFeelGood
20th Jan 2014, 22:14
The game needs a spear fighter, with a slightly stronger melee than the other human classes but not more than a vamps. He could have the ability to throw the spear a limited range and quickly pull it back via a rope tied to it like a harpoon. It can be paired with a net to work along the lines of a bola, maybe a poison or burning net option.
I'm picturing something descendant from fishermen, sailors, or even pirates.
In Soul Reaver, aside from the wraith blade and claws paired with the enviroment, the spear was the weapon to have.

GenFeelGood
20th Jan 2014, 22:46
There was actually a galleon style ship in Soul Reaver over in Rahab's territory that contained such a spear.

lucinvampire
21st Jan 2014, 10:30
I agree with this, but I believe that they should still use a hammer or maybe ax and shield


That's a good idea and would definitely look good, but as melee weapons they would potentially negatively impact the game's asymmetrical combat dynamic.

How about throwing axes or hammers – or spinning them around like Thor that creates some sort of draft that blows vampires off their feet or like his boomerang throw and it comes back hammer??? Or a gun that shoots axes – who wouldn’t want a gun that shoots axes? right? Ok that was a stupid idea :D

Monkeythumbz
21st Jan 2014, 10:43
Or a gun that shoots axes – who wouldn’t want a gun that shoots axes? right?

How about a gun that shoots axe-wielding dwarves?

Or a gun that shoots axe-wielding dwarves riding velociraptors?

lucinvampire
21st Jan 2014, 11:24
Or a gun that shoots axe-wielding dwarves riding velociraptors?

That’d be so far beyond amazing it would cause the entire universe to implode just because it’s too awesome! I so want one :D

diuqSehT
21st Jan 2014, 21:06
If Eidos ever acquires Ratchet & Clank that could be one of the new weapons in the Nosgoth crossover game.

Hey for "Future Human Classes"........ What about a class of humans from the future????????

Huh? Huh? Huh?

It'd end the suspense in one way, by tipping your hand (admitting humans survived the current conflict). But it could also be mysterious, like these time travelers would have to obey their prime directive of not creating a fatal paradox so they couldn't just come back in time and wipe out the necros with overwhelming force. They'd only be available for rare battles when some important historical site or artifact needed saving. A preservation corps? Their agenda would have an unknown endgame in mind, which could be explored in future installments should Kain ever get back to the future himself. But they'd be like the spooky future breed of mankind from Fringe, if anybody watched that..... they'd be tweaking the present for very carefully calibrated enhancements of their future. With the Nosgoth equivalent of "Space Alien Weapons".

See? I'm a lot like Jesus.

Sluagh
21st Jan 2014, 22:01
If Eidos ever acquires Ratchet & Clank that could be one of the new weapons in the Nosgoth crossover game.

Hey for "Future Human Classes"........ What about a class of humans from the future????????

Huh? Huh? Huh?

It'd end the suspense in one way, by tipping your hand (admitting humans survived the current conflict). But it could also be mysterious, like these time travelers would have to obey their prime directive of not creating a fatal paradox so they couldn't just come back in time and wipe out the necros with overwhelming force. They'd only be available for rare battles when some important historical site or artifact needed saving. A preservation corps? Their agenda would have an unknown endgame in mind, which could be explored in future installments should Kain ever get back to the future himself. But they'd be like the spooky future breed of mankind from Fringe, if anybody watched that..... they'd be tweaking the present for very carefully calibrated enhancements of their future. With the Nosgoth equivalent of "Space Alien Weapons".

See? I'm a lot like Jesus.

Maybe they could be in some way associated with the Eternal Prison. Ok, I know it was rather a rootless BO2 plot feature, but it had some kind of reverence for Moebius (there was the statue), and it could exist within the post 1st paradox world as easily as the 3rd. Maybe with the rise of Kain and all his shenanigans they decided that 1) He had committed too many crimes including unwarranted fiddling around with Time, and virtual genocide 2) His offspring were damned and culpable too, and it would hard to imprison all those vampires with their dark gifts etc. Thus they decided to allow for some "future humans" from the time at which Nosgoth was about to completely collapse to go back and finish off the vampires. It's rather a complicated concept, and probably full of holes.

However sending these "future humans" back was in fact a really irresponsible act that threatened to unravel Time itself, and actual does some kind of extra damage to Nosgoth prior to the dystopia of Soul Reaver. Back in the post third paradox world -when Kain then destroys the Eternal Prison in BO2, facilitated indirectly by the Hylden, Vorador's return etc. he prevents all this "future human" stuff ever happening, actually improving the prospects of Nosgoth a tiny bit.

diuqSehT
21st Jan 2014, 23:05
Head numb from that! That's okay, though, I've been doing that to other people for a long time.

One important LOK-faithful detail to add is:
they'd only be "fulfilling" history by tinkering with stuff during Kain's era. So their interference is already destined and can't be what wrecks their own future completely, because then they'd have paradoxed themselves out of existence and I guess only the reaver can create real paradox changes like that. (Unless you want to say that in future ages they'll use advanced sciences to unlock the secret of paradox power so they can forge their own artifacts with the power to change history in the way we've only seen the soul reaver capable of doing so far.) But we should always give them the chance to live a cursed existence by making life worse for themselves somehow. When their efforts have side-effects they didn't factor in to their time equations.

Hey that eternal prison thing could be a "nice" future human way of putting vampires on ice. Kidnap selected vampires from Kain's era who might have done especially nasty things, bring them to the human-dominated future and Freeze them in temporal stasis! (Leading of course to a massive jailbreak like in Ghostbusters when Kain is forced to visit their era to kick butt.)

Also, as the thing that's led to them poking their noses into Kain's era, maybe they detected the paradox shifts in their own past (Raziel), suspected that this was a danger to them and they needed a special ops team to keep an eye on these vamps to make sure Kain didn't go too far and wipe out the nice human future that's just been created by the latest paradox. Superhumans fighting for their fate the same way Kain is fighting to restore the fate of vampires.

GenFeelGood
22nd Jan 2014, 00:56
What about something derived from a sailor or fisherman using a harpoon style spear with a rope attached that he can throw a limited range and quickly pull back. This class could have a stronger melee but not more than a vampires and the second weapon could be a net of some kind with possibly a poison or burning net option in the store. The spear was the weapon to have in Soul Raver, next to the wraith blade, and there was a ship in Soul Reaver over in Rahab's territory that had such a spear.

lucinvampire
22nd Jan 2014, 12:49
Hey for "Future Human Classes"........ What about a class of humans from the future????????

Sometimes you scare me Squid but I like it :P - future humans would be well cool - as long as I can have some short of lazer beam gun! - dude I'm so picturing a whole Space Nosgoth scenario now lol.


But they'd be like the spooky future breed of mankind from Fringe, if anybody watched that......

That show rocked! :D


What about something derived from a sailor or fisherman using a harpoon style spear with a rope attached that he can throw a limited range and quickly pull back. This class could have a stronger melee but not more than a vampires and the second weapon could be a net of some kind with possibly a poison or burning net option in the store. The spear was the weapon to have in Soul Raver, next to the wraith blade, and there was a ship in Soul Reaver over in Rahab's territory that had such a spear.

A net would be a really cool weapon for trapping vamps and causing damage, spear on a rope sounds fun - you could maybe pull the vamp off their feet when you pull it back to yourself too... :D

Vampmaster
22nd Jan 2014, 13:15
If Eidos ever acquires Ratchet & Clank that could be one of the new weapons in the Nosgoth crossover game.

Hey for "Future Human Classes"........ What about a class of humans from the future????????

Huh? Huh? Huh?

It'd end the suspense in one way, by tipping your hand (admitting humans survived the current conflict). But it could also be mysterious, like these time travelers would have to obey their prime directive of not creating a fatal paradox so they couldn't just come back in time and wipe out the necros with overwhelming force. They'd only be available for rare battles when some important historical site or artifact needed saving. A preservation corps? Their agenda would have an unknown endgame in mind, which could be explored in future installments should Kain ever get back to the future himself. But they'd be like the spooky future breed of mankind from Fringe, if anybody watched that..... they'd be tweaking the present for very carefully calibrated enhancements of their future. With the Nosgoth equivalent of "Space Alien Weapons".

See? I'm a lot like Jesus.

I don't know. The story to LOK has always been complicated, but it still had a cohesive structure to it. Having hundreds of people running around changing history anyway they like, would just end up as a confusing mess. Also, the hylden in BO2 were already considered too sci-fi as it is and lasers just seems like jumping the shark.

Sataine
22nd Jan 2014, 14:54
A net would be a really cool weapon for trapping vamps and causing damage, spear on a rope sounds fun - you could maybe pull the vamp off their feet when you pull it back to yourself too... :D

I'd love to see a human try and pull a skewered Dumahim. Don't quite see that one working out too well for him.

diuqSehT
22nd Jan 2014, 19:17
hundreds of people running around anyway they like would be a confusing mess. Also, BO2 was already considered too sci-fi as it is.

If you like cohesiveness then why are you trying to see it as incohesive? See it as cohesive, because that's what you like. That's the key to happiness. Most of the time they wouldn't be changing anything, either. It'd all be happening just like it was supposed to. They'd be doing what they were always destined to do in history. They'd be weighing in like any other faction that's fighting to influence things. On special occasions, though, like for the main threat they posed which Kain has to bust up, they'd build an artifact that could change things. That's just good for drama. Otherwise they've got no nuke and are impotent. If you're really dedicated to being an immortal, you've got to get accustomed to living in the future, because that's where you're going, nonstop. And lasers are overdone, so it'd be weirder than straight-ahead star wars laser blasts. And in Nosgoth isn't it the dream to break EG's chains and defy fate? So in some ways the apparent chaos of having hundreds of people running around "any way they like" is actually what it'd look like if humanity was living in victory over the dark forces. There'd be new problems rising from their freedom, but it'd be a new evolved humanity facing those challenges. Freeing everyone to resist fate is the next cool evolutionary step that LOK myth has set up for lowly humans to reach for. Raz was like the mutation, Kain could spread that mutation through Nosgoth's gene pool. And so on.

Vampmaster
22nd Jan 2014, 19:21
If you like cohesiveness then why are you trying to see it as incohesive? See it as cohesive, because that's what you like. That's the key to happiness. Most of the time they wouldn't be changing anything, either. It'd all be happening just like it was supposed to. They'd be doing what they were always destined to do in history. They'd be weighing in like any other faction that's fighting to influence things. On special occasions, though, like for the main threat they posed which Kain has to bust up, they'd build an artifact that could change things. That's just good for drama. Otherwise they've got no nuke and are impotent. If you're really dedicated to being an immortal, you've got to get used to living in the future, because that's where you're going, nonstop. And lasers are overdone, so it'd be weirder than straight-ahead star wars laser blasts.

Sorry if I caused any offence.

lucinvampire
23rd Jan 2014, 13:33
I'd love to see a human try and pull a skewered Dumahim. Don't quite see that one working out too well for him.

Yeah I see your point - but it'd be funny - man trying to pull over Reaver, Reaver flipping his arm like swatting away a fly and human going flying face first into a building... though I was picturing the fisherman guy the size of a Gladiator/Tyrant so that might help...or maybe not :D

Sluagh
23rd Jan 2014, 21:43
If you like cohesiveness then why are you trying to see it as incohesive? See it as cohesive, because that's what you like. That's the key to happiness. Most of the time they wouldn't be changing anything, either. It'd all be happening just like it was supposed to. They'd be doing what they were always destined to do in history. They'd be weighing in like any other faction that's fighting to influence things. On special occasions, though, like for the main threat they posed which Kain has to bust up, they'd build an artifact that could change things. That's just good for drama.

I think there could be the scope for some kind of faction, or class that was a bit more outlandish in origin. However, I suppose where Vampmaster was going with it, correct me if I'm wrong, was that if you had an overly complicated time streaming faction it might undermine the narrative significance of any time-streaming etc. which in a sense I kind of agree with. However if something was nuanced and fitted the narrative without casting everything else asunder, it might work. I mean characters like Azimuth and Moebius were able to see and do some pretty mental things. However, particularly in the former case it had some pretty dire effects. Sometimes it's good to have these wacky ideas so you can hone the nugget of the not quite so wacky. Humans at this stage seem a bit more open in their potential design than the vamps, as their history is less defined.

ZeroFernir
24th Jan 2014, 01:17
I would like the giant using a giant harpoon (it could do the damage of a bazooka in other games) but I would like to see him actually throwing it, not shooting it from anywere. There could be some AWESOME images because of the harpoon (imagine a Turelim being stabbed by the harpoon =P) and the recharge would be made by a rope, making it slow, compensating the great amount of damage it causes. What do you think?

Jora_Cross
3rd Feb 2014, 15:39
I think a great class add to this game would be a Trap Master someone who can set up trip wires and mines. Something the requires a lot of thought and would make your enemy be more creative. Imagine putting a hunter in a corner making him helpless but at the door a trip wire and by the hunter three mines full of silver spikes.

GenFeelGood
11th Feb 2014, 06:14
How about a knife thrower class. In Blood Omen one of the earliest human combatants was a clan of gypsies that threw knives. As mentioned before in the forums, the Zephonim are eventually served by humans that they have mental control over and some of them were knife fighters. What if before they became literally brainwashed by Zephon into service they were these gypsy knife fighters in the human uprising?
It would be a good medium to short range fighter that could have a faster melee, but slightly weaker than the other human classes.

Here is something along the lines of what I was picturing.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NZi0ERfCwyA/Uvm4E9uADCI/AAAAAAAAAA8/y_MdsmA9KN0/w958-h719-no/Gypsy.JPG

Inspiration for it actually came from Danny Trejo's character in the movie Desperado.
http://content6.flixster.com/photo/11/54/27/11542728_ori.jpg

Update
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cQAjUnXtG98/UwPnx7rQBeI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/-L35Cvhtv3k/w958-h719-no/DSC00300.JPG

lucinvampire
13th Feb 2014, 13:01
I would like to have some sort of suicide bomb ability - not sure what kind of class it'd work for...hmm...if you are surrounded by a gang of vampires - are low on health and there is no possible way to survive detinate your I don't know some kind of vampire killing bomb and take all those pesky fiends with you (or at least take some of their health)! That'd be funny...last resort but funny :D


How about a knife thrower class. In Blood Omen one of the earliest human combatants was a clan of gypsies that threw knives.

Those gypsies were awesome :D some kind of gypsy class would be cool - I suppose Scout uses knives so it might be taking away from that - but the gypsies were there first! :p

Vampmaster
13th Feb 2014, 14:31
How about a knife thrower class. In Blood Omen one of the earliest human combatants was a clan of gypsies that threw knives. As mentioned before in the forums, the Zephonim are eventually served by humans that they have mental control over and some of them were knife fighters. What if before they became literally brainwashed by Zephon into service they were these gypsy knife fighters in the human uprising?
It would be a good medium to short range fighter that could have a faster melee, but slightly weaker than the other human classes.

Here is something along the lines of what I was picturing.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NZi0ERfCwyA/Uvm4E9uADCI/AAAAAAAAAA8/y_MdsmA9KN0/w958-h719-no/Gypsy.JPG

Inspiration for it actually came from Danny Trejo's character in the movie Desperado.
http://content6.flixster.com/photo/11/54/27/11542728_ori.jpg

If there's a class like that, we should be able to have flays and other items as the alternate weapons. Maybe they'd do more damage but be harder to aim due to having different flight paths or something. But they would have a cool damage effect. There's lots of variations on "throwing object" in Blood Omen that could be used here.


I think a great class add to this game would be a Trap Master someone who can set up trip wires and mines. Something the requires a lot of thought and would make your enemy be more creative. Imagine putting a hunter in a corner making him helpless but at the door a trip wire and by the hunter three mines full of silver spikes.

How about trapping vampires in thorns summoned by a Druid class (based on Bane the Druid who was the nature guardian in Blood Omen 1) instead of silver spikes. (The vampires in Legacy of Kain have not been shown to be vulnerable to silver.)

faeral
13th Feb 2014, 19:56
human class with something like the ripper from UT could be interesting, banking shots on rooftop vamps...maybe bank shots would be cooldown driven if it would create too much random spam, or just 1 bounce.

faeral
17th Feb 2014, 08:15
am i right in thinking that there is not much established lore for humanity in this timeline? outside of dumah being overtaken by humans. i should probably watch the storyline for the first Blood Omen for more human lore.

i've heard that there is a spear-based human class in the works, which sounds cool. ( would fit with Dumah as well, since he is impaled by 3 spears when Raziel finds him )

other ideas:

Duelist - kinda picturing the character as using a 1-handed crossbow & a parrying dagger, perhaps with some close range counterattack abilities ( for slick bodyblock skillshots ) & a faster dodge roll.

Invoker - is it reasonable for humans to have any access to magic in this timeline? spellcasting would be another ranged option to explore.

Tribal - Not familiar with the first Blood Omen ( yet ), but maybe a native-themed class using Tomahawks. successful attacks could cause bleeding. other utilities could include Whirling Axes ( either defensive or as a ranged AoE ) & possibly War Chants to support team somehow. This could actually fit the Gypsy Knife fighter theme by GenFeelGood as well, replace War Chants with Gypsy curses. Bottom line: Throwing weapons are awesome.

Crusader - Tough, slow, armored human ( higher health pool or some kind of Endure Pain ) using a slow-firing Stake Launcher with Water-based utilities. Vials of Water could act like grenades that can lower an affected vampire's damage output ( Vamp "weakened" by exposure to water ) with a future soft counter by Rahabim. The Stake Launcher could have a utility that knocks back & pins a Vampire to a wall for a few seconds if close enough. To get really fancy, the vampire could have a quicktime event to hit a button really fast in order to "wriggle off the stake". Would have great interaction with Scout traps & Alchemist wall of fire.

i am unreasonably excited to play this game.

lucinvampire
17th Feb 2014, 12:43
Crusader - Tough, slow, armored human ( higher health pool or some kind of Endure Pain ) using a slow-firing Stake Launcher with Water-based utilities. Vials of Water could act like grenades that can lower an affected vampire's damage output ( Vamp "weakened" by exposure to water ) with a future soft counter by Rahabim. The Stake Launcher could have a utility that knocks back & pins a Vampire to a wall for a few seconds if close enough. To get really fancy, the vampire could have a quicktime event to hit a button really fast in order to "wriggle off the stake". Would have great interaction with Scout traps & Alchemist wall of fire.

I really like your idea of a stake gun that’d be fun…if not pinning a vamp to a wall it could maybe stop the vampire in it’s tracks – like throw a Tyrant out of the charge attack :D

Vampmaster
17th Feb 2014, 13:08
I really like your idea of a stake gun that’d be fun…if not pinning a vamp to a wall it could maybe stop the vampire in it’s tracks – like throw a Tyrant out of the charge attack :D

What about an atlatl?
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/atlatl.htm

lucinvampire
17th Feb 2014, 20:55
What about an atlatl?
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/atlatl.htm

That looks like an awesome weapon :D I want one!!!!

And that just reminded me blow darts!! We need some!

Sluagh
17th Feb 2014, 22:58
And that just reminded me blow darts!! We need some!

On the subject of blow darts, I came up with this a few weeks ago. I came up with a cruddy image too, but I can't find it ..ah no here 'tis https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ILr_L9rre7Q/UwKVVTdtqnI/AAAAAAAAADc/0EpfjOUF6Lw/w819-h460-no/Pygmy+Idea.png As you see I am no artist.

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=9059&highlight=pygmy I also suggested a boomerang, but I'm not sure on that one. Sounds a bit Mad Max 2 (I love that film).

lucinvampire
18th Feb 2014, 10:21
On the subject of blow darts, I came up with this a few weeks ago. I came up with a cruddy image too, but I can't find it ..ah no here 'tis https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ILr_L9rre7Q/UwKVVTdtqnI/AAAAAAAAADc/0EpfjOUF6Lw/w819-h460-no/Pygmy+Idea.png As you see I am no artist.

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=9059&highlight=pygmy I also suggested a boomerang, but I'm not sure on that one. Sounds a bit Mad Max 2 (I love that film).

Cool tribal warrior would be awesome :D had a go on a blow-dart pipe a few years back and which was really fun and they really could go far and do a lot of damage...well to a cardboard box...they could have some sort of poison on them that effects vampires??

Vampmaster
18th Feb 2014, 10:42
There have been tribal guys before:

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_humans_(male)
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_humans_(female)

Perhaps some inspiration could be taken from those? It couldn't be exact, since those feathered things on their heads/backs don't look very practical for a PVP game and they are only shown with melee weapons.

I'm also unsure whether to count druids as the same thing as a tribal class or something separate. I'm sure there would still be druids in this era, since it's a kind of religion and those things tend to survive a long time.

Bane for reference:
http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(Legacy_of_Kain)

lucinvampire
18th Feb 2014, 10:58
There have been tribal guys before:

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_humans_(male)
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_humans_(female)


Thanks Vampmaster :D a similar design to those guys would be awesome…it’d work because they existed previously!



I'm also unsure whether to count druids as the same thing as a tribal class or something separate. I'm sure there would still be druids in this era, since it's a kind of religion and those things tend to survive a long time.

Bane for reference:
http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(Legacy_of_Kain)

IMO Druids would have to be a completely different class…there’s quite a lot of difference.

faeral
18th Feb 2014, 11:17
nice, those feral humans could be adapted into this art style. more low key headdress & maybe some use of tattooing with leather straps for armor.

the blowdart would fit that image perfectly instead of the melee claws. also, throwing axes. so hot right now. throwing axes.

Vampmaster
18th Feb 2014, 11:26
nice, those feral humans could be adapted into this art style. more low key headdress & maybe some use of tattooing with leather straps for armor.

the blowdart would fit that image perfectly instead of the melee claws. also, throwing axes. so hot right now. throwing axes.

And Raziel did talk about feral humans living the hinterlands in the SR1 manual.

NaughtyPeon
20th Feb 2014, 00:05
I really wish to see Saraphan Knights implemented into the game. They were the elite forces of human resistance in LOK and it would be so cool to play as one. Humans need a tank class and it will develop some interesting strategies to counter Vampires. They should have high armor/health and the ability to pull a vampire off an ally with their axes/halberds. Would also be really cool if they could pin a vampire to the ground or a wall so that the team can attack. As for offensive ability perhaps maybe a 360 spin and their melee could be very inferior to a Vampire.

Lord_Aevum
20th Feb 2014, 01:03
I really wish to see Saraphan Knights implemented into the game. They were the elite forces of human resistance in LOK and it would be so cool to play as one

Knights might appear, but the Sarafan are as dead as dodos in the Soul Reaver era.

Their original head inquisitors are now Kain's right hand men in charge of the vampire race, deliciously unaware that their heritage has been so profoundly and fundamentally perverted, and this theme is important to the plot of Soul Reaver. It's firmly established in that game that they're long gone, a relic of the "time of Vorador" and the ancient forgotten past.

Playable Sarafan in this time would more than likely cheapen that past mythology and contradict many official statements.

Vampmaster
20th Feb 2014, 11:01
Knights might appear, but the Sarafan are as dead as dodos in the Soul Reaver era.

Their original head inquisitors are now Kain's right hand men in charge of the vampire race, deliciously unaware that their heritage has been so profoundly and fundamentally perverted, and this theme is important to the plot of Soul Reaver. It's firmly established in that game that they're long gone, a relic of the "time of Vorador" and the ancient forgotten past.

Playable Sarafan in this time would more than likely cheapen that past mythology and contradict many official statements.

Like I've said before, I see no reason why the Ironguard wouldn't want to emulate their revered Sarafan ancestors by wearing their style of armor. It seems plausible to me as a costume choice, provided the devs don't go over the top and have every single skin looking like a Sarafan.

I would like to see something in the blog about a member of the Ironguard being awarded with that for some great victory or heroic deed.

Khalith
20th Feb 2014, 11:26
Like I've said before, I see no reason why the Ironguard wouldn't want to emulate their revered Sarafan ancestors by wearing their style of armor. It seems plausible to me as a costume choice, provided the devs don't go over the top and have every single skin looking like a Sarafan.

I would like to see something in the blog about a member of the Ironguard being awarded with that for some great victory or heroic deed.

Even then, Sarafan could still appear, not the actual Sarafan mind, more like a new group that gives themselves the name as a way to evoke the past glories of the fallen. "The power of the vampires is weakening! We shall band together to wipe them out like the Sarafan brotherhood before us! We are the new Sarafan!" Or something like that.

Vampmaster
20th Feb 2014, 11:43
Even then, Sarafan could still appear, not the actual Sarafan mind, more like a new group that gives themselves the name as a way to evoke the past glories of the fallen. "The power of the vampires is weakening! We shall band together to wipe them out like the Sarafan brotherhood before us! We are the new Sarafan!" Or something like that.

That's kind of what the Ironguard already are. I think SE just thought it was taking things a bit too far to revive the Sarafan order a third time, so they gave them a different name. I'd be fine with them having "We are the new Sarafan!" as one of their in-game phrases.

Monkeythumbz
20th Feb 2014, 13:56
Like I've said before, I see no reason why the Ironguard wouldn't want to emulate their revered Sarafan ancestors by wearing their style of armor. It seems plausible to me as a costume choice, provided the devs don't go over the top and have every single skin looking like a Sarafan.

It's not known how much the Ironguard accurately recall of the Sarafan, most of their knowledge has been passed down the generations as word-of-mouth folk tales as the Vampires would have been keen to either confiscate or destroy Human libraries. Additionally, full on plate armour might be beyond the smelting abilities of Humans in this era.

Vampmaster
20th Feb 2014, 14:05
It's not known how much the Ironguard accurately recall of the Sarafan, most of their knowledge has been passed down the generations as word-of-mouth folk tales as the Vampires would have been keen to either confiscate or destroy Human libraries. Additionally, full on plate armour might be beyond the smelting abilities of Humans in this era.

This looks a lot like plate armor:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1400524_1420987764796271_1363929381_o.jpg

Monkeythumbz
20th Feb 2014, 14:11
This looks a lot like plate armor:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1400524_1420987764796271_1363929381_o.jpg

Neveretheless, it's still predominately made out of leathery materials apart from in crucial areas, and quite a long way away from the full-body plate armour you see the Sarafan Warrior Inquisitors wear when confronted by wraith-Raziel in LOK:SR2.

Vampmaster
20th Feb 2014, 14:46
Neveretheless, it's still predominately made out of leathery materials apart from in crucial areas, and quite a long way away from the full-body plate armour you see the Sarafan Warrior Inquisitors wear when confronted by wraith-Raziel in LOK:SR2.

What about this? This seems like pretty light armor:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110127192018/legacyofkain/images/f/fe/Sarafans_%28Defiance%29.jpg

This one looks like chain mail. Could they manage that?
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120309204432/legacyofkain/images/4/4c/SR2-Enemy-Sarafan-Concept.jpg

And I'd love to see this somewhere. Tough to explain plotwise though:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110127191550/legacyofkain/images/9/93/Sarafan_Priest_%28Defiance%29.jpg

Monkeythumbz
20th Feb 2014, 15:42
This one looks like chain mail. Could they manage that?
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120309204432/legacyofkain/images/4/4c/SR2-Enemy-Sarafan-Concept.jpg
Yes, that does seem plausible although right now we're focusing on creating new Human classes rather than revisiting old ones. Could make for some nice new skins if we were to revisit the roster for the Ironguard, though!

Vampmaster
20th Feb 2014, 16:10
Yes, that does seem plausible although right now we're focusing on creating new Human classes rather than revisiting old ones. Could make for some nice new skins if we were to revisit the roster for the Ironguard, though!

I was only responding to what Lord_Aevum was saying about the Sarafan not being around in this era and trying to point out to Khalith that the Ironguard are the closest thing this era has to Sarafan. It was only a suggestion of a way to make the connection more noticeable.

I'm not saying any of this should be made the priority.

Lord_Aevum
20th Feb 2014, 21:17
I was only responding to what Lord_Aevum was saying about the Sarafan not being around in this era

Don't know why, since I wasn't saying anything to preclude Sarafan impersonators or Sarafan wannabes, but rather somebody who expressed a wish to play as an actual Sarafan knight in this game.

reybag
20th Feb 2014, 21:52
humans should have some mage class with fire or energy spells ,it will be their big area of damage unit with long cooldown (powerfull but with the need to think what are doing and not going rambo or all you powers will be in cooldown and you are helpless)

Vampmaster
20th Feb 2014, 22:10
Don't know why, since I wasn't saying anything to preclude Sarafan impersonators or Sarafan wannabes, but rather somebody who expressed a wish to play as an actual Sarafan knight in this game.

I wasn't sure if you were against the idea or not, so my response was kind of an addendum.

Nyxios
24th Feb 2014, 02:12
I was thinking about something. The Elder God used Moebius to purge the vampires as he cannot do it himself, even though he possesses omniscience (and omnipotence). In Soul Reaver era, vampires are far from being eradicated. They are still there, but reduced to be atrocious beasts. The Elder God used Raziel to purge them, most specificaly his brothers who were the best of their kind. With them dead, and knowing about the fate of Kain and Raziel (being dead/imprisoned in the past), the world is his for the taking.
Back to the era between Raziel's execution and return, there is almost a millenium. And the Elder God would need power to destroy his sworn ennemies. So, I was thinking, one of the human class could be some kind of worshippers of the Elder God (of course, they wouldn't know about his true nature, like his past pawns such as Moebius), an holy order sharing a divine vision of a healed world, in which the Wheel of fate (or something close to it) could turn, as the Elder God loves mystical concepts. It could be associated in some way to nature (the nature of the world, and existence) and so to Bane. That order would be in some way a counterpart of the Alchemists. This order could also be present in Soul Reaver era, waiting for Raziel to kill his brothers and then disappear in the Chronoplast to launch an assault on every vampire on Nosgoth (and dispose of the human forces in the human citadel too, ensuring the Elder God to act without interference). So, what do you think of that?

Cradlis
24th Feb 2014, 05:31
I love the idea of a class related in some way to the Elder God. That would be the perfect occasion to link the «true enemy» to Nosgoth, thus making the game more even like LoK. That would shut the mouth of the haters out there :)

Eminent
24th Feb 2014, 12:51
I'd like to see a sword and shield class like a Knight. The left M.button could function as a melee attack for the sword, holding it down power attacks like the Vamps. The Right M.button could be to raise the shield, which reduces damage from the front but reduces speed.

Abilities could include a shield bash that knocks back or stuns vamps, perfect for knocking those pesky Reavers off your team-mate. Another ability could be an impaling lunge with the sword that deals significant damage.

Sidegrades for the shield could be a shield charge that dashes the Knight forward a short distance, stunning or knocking back any targets in the path. Or a javelin/spear throw ability with range but reduced damage instead of the sword impale.

The big question is with a class like this, do you make the sword and shield a pair, or separate items for the store items?

On one hand you could make them matched combos, like a sword with less damage and a shield with higher damage reduction for instance. But on the other hand you could make some pretty interesting combos by letting them be seperate. Like a sword that deals lots of damage, but swings slowly, but you also have a shield that can reduce damage a lot; Or a spiked shield that reduces less damage, but deals a small amount of damage when a Vampire attacks you while blocking.

Personally I would go with the sets rather than making them individual items.

Just an idea.

[Edited for spelling]

Monkeythumbz
26th Feb 2014, 14:03
I'd like to see a sword and shield class like a Knight. The left M.button could function as a melee attack for the sword, holding it down power attacks like the Vamps. The Right M.button could be to raise the shield, which reduces damage from the front but reduces speed.

Abilities could include a shield bash that knocks back or stuns vamps, perfect for knocking those pesky Reavers off your team-mate. Another ability could be an impaling lunge with the sword that deals significant damage.
Not sure this would work as Humans are ranged rather than melee, but the javelin idea is a good one!

Vampmaster
26th Feb 2014, 14:14
Not sure this would work as Humans are ranged rather than melee, but the javelin idea is a good one!

Did you see my suggestion about an atlatl?
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/atlatl.htm

Also, when it comes to spear weapons, remember how Raziel would always miss in SR1 when you tried to impale a vampire who wasn't stunned? They're also kind of useless at close range if you can't pull your arm back far enough to stab the enemy with the sharp end. For that reason, they couldn't really be exploited as a melee weapon as the best you could do is blunt attacks which would do very little damage to a vampire.

Sluagh
26th Feb 2014, 14:51
Did you see my suggestion about an atlatl?
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/atlatl.htm

Also, when it comes to spear weapons, remember how Raziel would always miss in SR1 when you tried to impale a vampire who wasn't stunned? They're also kind of useless at close range if you can't pull your arm back far enough to stab the enemy with the sharp end. For that reason, they couldn't really be exploited as a melee weapon as the best you could do is blunt attacks which would do very little damage to a vampire.

I think the atlatl is quite a good way to get round that. Although maybe Raziel just wasn't very good at getting them to fly true. You could compensate on the force with better accuracy. None of the humans could match Raziel on the spear force chucking. But if they've spent years practising, they might have a better chance against some of the more squishy vampires. I thought some kind of boomerang with the potential to cut off heads might be quite cool. Like dis:

http://youtu.be/EFuzGU1wXq8

Neck is a weak point on anything, as well, as often above the level of a breastplate.

(N.B. I realised this rather an obvious point, unless your head is in the wrong place).

Monkeythumbz
26th Feb 2014, 14:58
Did you see my suggestion about an atlatl?
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/atlatl.htm

Also, when it comes to spear weapons, remember how Raziel would always miss in SR1 when you tried to impale a vampire who wasn't stunned? They're also kind of useless at close range if you can't pull your arm back far enough to stab the enemy with the sharp end. For that reason, they couldn't really be exploited as a melee weapon as the best you could do is blunt attacks which would do very little damage to a vampire.

That's a very good suggestion, many thanks!

NaughtyPeon
27th Feb 2014, 05:44
Well Im happy to hear that there may be some form of a Knight class in the future, any type of Sarafan Knight emulation would satisfy my craving. Would really suck if you were to dismiss the idea completely because one dude thinks that humans were unable to smith any type of plate armor at that era. Going by that logic alone I dont understand how they have semi automatic crossbows or hand held canons.

GenFeelGood
22nd Apr 2014, 22:12
A heavy damage magic class called The Disciples
Lore
Descendant from the former acolytes of the Circle Guardians responsible for evil of Dark Eden Castle: Bane of the Pillar of Nature, DeJoule of the Pillar of Energy, and Anacrothe of the Pillar of States. After escaping the evil of Dark Eden, in the aftermath Kain’s wrath upon the circle, they made their way to Malek’s Bastion for safe haven. There they found the warrior acolytes of Malek, who had yet to hear of the master’s death. While recovering from the injuries sustained by the journey, they discovered a hidden library of stone texts that had been sealed away there in the early days of the first human Circle of Nine. Among the texts were accounts and maps of places referred to in the ancient tongue as glyph shrines, structures left behind by ancient Gods that imparted power upon those loyal to them in order to serve in the war against the false Gods that plagued the land at the time.

These places, forgotten in the shadow of the ancient God’s sudden disappearance and rendered taboo by the circle, were sought out by all the acolyte factions in hopes that they might lead to new places to hide out from the horrors that were to come in the aftermath of the Pillar's recent collapse. They eventually found these shrines, but to their surprise these shrines were still active. Upon performing the rituals described in the texts, they were imbued with powers that would have been beyond their comprehension if not for their service to the Guardians. They became intoxicated by it and moved to claim all the glyph shrines. They were so focused on getting each glyph that they ignored the side effects each one of them brought.

With each new glyph, a sense was sacrificed. Their eyes became blighted, with their vision compromised to something a step below color blind. Their bodies were now numb, unable to discern sensations of pain and pleasure. They could no longer smell or taste anything. The greatest change was the loss of the ability to empathize; becoming colder, more calculating, and, above all, brutal in their behavior.

Believing the people of Nosgoth were not yet wise enough or desperate enough to welcome them as anything but abominations, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels that connected all the glyph shrines together. To refill their ranks they crafted the underground city, later referred to as the Human Citadel, to entice the common people with the promise of safety so long as they surrendered a few of their young from time to time. During this period they also crafted weapons, scepters, from the knowledge they gained in their service to the circle, which channeled the powers of the glyphs more efficiently. The scepters, when charged through the power inside their bodies, could discharge bolts of energy over a decent range; as well as focused rays of light so intense they could cut stone and travel over even longer distances.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, these acolytes who had long united under the banner of the Disciples (the term used in the ancient texts for those who used the glyph shrines in the beginning) rejoined humanity in the fight against the vampires as part of a secret scheme to one day become the new masters of Nosgoth.


Possible Primary and Secondary Abilities: still work in progress
Water Glyph: Against a normal human it kills them by encasing them in ice right where they stand, against a vampire it cause acidic damage from the water while reducing their movement and attack speed.

Sound Glyph: Emits a high pitched screech that disorients a vampire, blurs their vision to where it looks like there are five people in front of it when there is actually just one.

Force Glyph: This one is closer to what was in Soul Reaver but perhaps with a different charge animation, releasing a blast of kinetic energy that knocks back nearby enemies.

Stone Glyph: Transmit a blast of kinetic energy into the earth, causing the energy to send the earth into air in a concussive blast.

Only part posing difficulty to me is the reload mechanism. Mana potion would seem the old school solution, but I'd like something along the lines of crushing a stone, charged with the recharge energy, like in dark souls. Any other suggestions on that or the above mentioned would be more than welcome.

Haraldm
24th Apr 2014, 09:11
I would love a fully melee class... like a fighting monk or something... protected by some divine power or something...

nehemoth
24th Apr 2014, 10:47
A heavy damage magic class called The Disciples
Lore
Descendant from the former acolytes of the Circle Guardians responsible for evil of Dark Eden Castle: Bane of the Pillar of Nature, DeJoule of the Pillar of Energy, and Anacrothe of the Pillar of States. After escaping the evil of Dark Eden, in the aftermath Kain’s wrath upon the circle, they made their way to Malek’s Bastion for safe haven. There they found the warrior acolytes of Malek, who had yet to hear of the master’s death. While recovering from the injuries sustained by the journey, they discovered a hidden library of stone texts that had been sealed away there in the early days of the first human Circle of Nine. Among the texts were accounts and maps of places referred to in the ancient tongue as glyph shrines, structures left behind by ancient Gods that imparted power upon those loyal to them in order to serve in the war against the false Gods that plagued the land at the time.

These places, forgotten in the shadow of the ancient God’s sudden disappearance and rendered taboo by the circle, were sought out by all the acolyte factions in hopes that they might lead to new places to hide out from the horrors that were to come in the aftermath of the Pillar's recent collapse. They eventually found these shrines, but to their surprise these shrines were still active. Upon performing the rituals described in the texts, they were imbued with powers that would have been beyond their comprehension if not for their service to the Guardians. They became intoxicated by it and moved to claim all the glyph shrines. They were so focused on getting each glyph that they ignored the side effects each one of them brought.

With each new glyph, a sense was sacrificed. Their eyes became blighted, with their vision compromised to something a step below color blind. Their bodies were now numb, unable to discern sensations of pain and pleasure. They could no longer smell or taste anything. The greatest change was the loss of the ability to empathize; becoming colder, more calculating, and, above all, brutal in their behavior.

Believing the people of Nosgoth were not yet wise enough or desperate enough to welcome them as anything but abominations, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels that connecting all the glyph shrines together. To refill their ranks they crafted the underground city, later referred to as the Human Citadel, to entice the common people with the promise of safety so long as they surrendered a few of their young from time to time. During this period they also crafted weapons, scepters, from the knowledge they gained in their service to the circle, which channeled the powers of the glyphs more efficiently. The scepters, when charged through the power inside their bodies, could discharge bolts of energy over a decent range; as well as focused rays of light so intense they could cut stone and travel over even longer distances.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, these acolytes who had long united under the banner of the Disciples, the term used in the ancient texts for those who used the glyph shrines in the beginning, rejoined humanity in the fight against the vampires as part of a secret scheme to one day become the new masters of Nosgoth.


Possible Primary and Secondary Abilities: still work in progress
Water Glyph: Against a normal human it kills them by encasing them in ice right where they stand, against a vampire it cause acidic damage from the water while reducing their movement and attack speed.

Sound Glyph: Emits a high pitched screech that disorients a vampire, blurs their vision to where it looks like their five people in front of it when there is actually just one.

Force Glyph: This one is closer to what was in Soul Reaver but perhaps with a different charge animation, releasing a blast of kinetic energy that knocks back nearby enemies.

Stone Glyph: Transmit a blast of kinetic energy into the earth, causing the energy to send the earth into air in a concussive blast.

Only part posing difficulty to me is the reload mechanism. Mana potion would seem the old school solution, but I'd like something along the lines of crushing a stone, charged with the recharge energy, like in dark souls. Any other suggestions on that or the above mentioned would be more than welcome.

I would love this kind of class, using Glyphs, linking it to Soul Reaver Lore. Anyway, I just want a human class using magic (which means no guns, just blasts of "mana") so this idea fits my wishes.

GenFeelGood
24th Apr 2014, 20:43
Update & Clarification on the Disciples

Weapon: Scepter
*The power is held in the glyphs that are sealed within the Disciple. The scepters are an extension of the disciples that draw on this power, focusing it into something more precise than the broad area of effect it would otherwise.
*Discharge: Drawing on the power of the fire glyph, it converts the fire and heat into energy that results into electrical discharge in the form of bolts that travel over a medium range.
*Beam: Drawing on the power of the sun glyph and requiring a charge time, it focuses all the light into a single, narrow ray of light that is so intense it cuts solid matter while traveling over long distances
*For melee, and as a nod to the former acolytes of Malek, they have fixed blades, stakes, or maces attached to the bottom of the scepter for close quarter combat.

Ability Update
Stone Glyph: A fixed sand cyclone that cause AoE damage, using sand that is moving at such great speed that it can strip flesh down to the bone.

Hashakgik888
25th Apr 2014, 10:13
I kind of like the idea of a human class that fights for the Vampires. They could be cultists or some kind of barbarian tribe from beyond the edge of the map, like the Harads who fought for Mordor in the War of the Ring. GIANT ELEPHANTS! :p

Reidbynature
30th Apr 2014, 07:42
Yeah, I think I've mentioned that I would't mind seeing a Vampire Worshipper human class for the vampire side, but I'm not sure Pysonix would be that keen on it since they seem to want to keep things firmly humans = ranged and vampires = melee.

Vampmaster
30th Apr 2014, 08:21
Update & Clarification on the Disciples

Weapon: Scepter
*The power is held in the glyphs that are sealed within the Disciple. The scepters are an extension of the disciples that draw on this power, focusing it into something more precise than the broad area of effect it would otherwise.
*Discharge: Drawing on the power of the fire glyph, it converts the fire and heat into energy that results into electrical discharge in the form of bolts that travel over a medium range.
*Beam: Drawing on the power of the sun glyph and requiring a charge time, it focuses all the light into a single, narrow ray of light that is so intense it cuts solid matter while traveling over long distances
*For melee, and as a nod to the former acolytes of Malek, they have fixed blades, stakes, or maces attached to the bottom of the scepter for close quarter combat.

Ability Update
Stone Glyph: A fixed sand cyclone that cause AoE damage, using sand that is moving at such great speed that it can strip flesh down to the bone.

I think any lightning effect should behave like real lighting. I.e. a bolt that remains connected at it's origin and impact point rather than a sort of orb that flies off from the source and travels towards the target. It just looks more epic that way IMO. I've referenced the finale from the Merlin TV series as an example in a few other threads. Or even lightning that behaves (visually) like Kain's in SR1 or the Archon's drain attack (again, just visually, without the actual drain) in Defiance. That's similar as well.

GenFeelGood
1st May 2014, 05:42
I think any lightning effect should behave like real lighting. I.e. a bolt that remains connected at it's origin and impact point rather than a sort of orb that flies off from the source and travels towards the target. It just looks more epic that way IMO.

Agreed, I just figure it would work that way if you want to keep monitoring your ammo by the number of rounds per clip; but if monitoring your ammo through a percentage would be acceptable then arc lightning would be the better choice over energy bolts.

Vampmaster
1st May 2014, 10:30
Agreed, I just figure it would work that way if you want to keep monitoring your ammo by the number of rounds per clip; but if monitoring your ammo through a percentage would be acceptable then arc lightning would be the better choice over energy bolts.

Well, it would just flash or pulse according to the firing rate.

A few examples:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Sentry_eyes?file=SR2-LightForge-Cutscenes-LightForgeKey-Sentry-05.png
(Was looking for the Kain boss fight. I'll have to wait until lunch.)

Bazielim
1st May 2014, 11:57
A few examples:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Sentry_eyes?file=SR2-LightForge-Cutscenes-LightForgeKey-Sentry-05.png
(Was looking for the Kain boss fight. I'll have to wait until lunch.)

That's annoying, I don't think we have any gameplay screenshots of Kain using his lightning against Raziel and I was just capturing for the Chronoplast images yesterday and didn't think to get any then either.
try these instead:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120610153258/legacyofkain/images/a/a7/SR1-Chronoplast-Kain-076-Stage1.png
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130724230659/legacyofkain/images/2/2c/BO2-Prologue-122.png
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130724230700/legacyofkain/images/5/52/BO2-Prologue-127.png

Vampmaster
1st May 2014, 12:06
That's annoying, I don't think we have any gameplay screenshots of Kain using his lightning against Raziel and I was just capturing for the Chronoplast images yesterday and didn't think to get any then either.
try these instead:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120610153258/legacyofkain/images/a/a7/SR1-Chronoplast-Kain-076-Stage1.png
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130724230659/legacyofkain/images/2/2c/BO2-Prologue-122.png
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130724230700/legacyofkain/images/5/52/BO2-Prologue-127.png

Yeah, that's the sort of thing. It would be somewhere inbetween those. A narrow beam like Kain's so you can target it using a reticle, but with a bit of discharge at the edges for effect and then a bang/crack sound with each jolt. Kain's is the closest to what I was thinking of, but it would need to be in bursts so there's a firing rate or maybe that could be customisable with a choice of continuous stream, slow high powered bolts, or widespread sparks.

RainaAudron
1st May 2014, 12:07
Here is one more:

Ruevergne
1st May 2014, 15:07
A heavy damage magic class called The Disciples
Lore
Descendant from the former acolytes of the Circle Guardians responsible for evil of Dark Eden Castle: Bane of the Pillar of Nature, DeJoule of the Pillar of Energy, and Anacrothe of the Pillar of States. After escaping the evil of Dark Eden, in the aftermath Kain’s wrath upon the circle, they made their way to Malek’s Bastion for safe haven. There they found the warrior acolytes of Malek, who had yet to hear of the master’s death. While recovering from the injuries sustained by the journey, they discovered a hidden library of stone texts that had been sealed away there in the early days of the first human Circle of Nine. Among the texts were accounts and maps of places referred to in the ancient tongue as glyph shrines, structures left behind by ancient Gods that imparted power upon those loyal to them in order to serve in the war against the false Gods that plagued the land at the time.

These places, forgotten in the shadow of the ancient God’s sudden disappearance and rendered taboo by the circle, were sought out by all the acolyte factions in hopes that they might lead to new places to hide out from the horrors that were to come in the aftermath of the Pillar's recent collapse. They eventually found these shrines, but to their surprise these shrines were still active. Upon performing the rituals described in the texts, they were imbued with powers that would have been beyond their comprehension if not for their service to the Guardians. They became intoxicated by it and moved to claim all the glyph shrines. They were so focused on getting each glyph that they ignored the side effects each one of them brought.

With each new glyph, a sense was sacrificed. Their eyes became blighted, with their vision compromised to something a step below color blind. Their bodies were now numb, unable to discern sensations of pain and pleasure. They could no longer smell or taste anything. The greatest change was the loss of the ability to empathize; becoming colder, more calculating, and, above all, brutal in their behavior.

Believing the people of Nosgoth were not yet wise enough or desperate enough to welcome them as anything but abominations, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels that connected all the glyph shrines together. To refill their ranks they crafted the underground city, later referred to as the Human Citadel, to entice the common people with the promise of safety so long as they surrendered a few of their young from time to time. During this period they also crafted weapons, scepters, from the knowledge they gained in their service to the circle, which channeled the powers of the glyphs more efficiently. The scepters, when charged through the power inside their bodies, could discharge bolts of energy over a decent range; as well as focused rays of light so intense they could cut stone and travel over even longer distances.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, these acolytes who had long united under the banner of the Disciples (the term used in the ancient texts for those who used the glyph shrines in the beginning) rejoined humanity in the fight against the vampires as part of a secret scheme to one day become the new masters of Nosgoth.


Possible Primary and Secondary Abilities: still work in progress
Water Glyph: Against a normal human it kills them by encasing them in ice right where they stand, against a vampire it cause acidic damage from the water while reducing their movement and attack speed.

Sound Glyph: Emits a high pitched screech that disorients a vampire, blurs their vision to where it looks like there are five people in front of it when there is actually just one.

Force Glyph: This one is closer to what was in Soul Reaver but perhaps with a different charge animation, releasing a blast of kinetic energy that knocks back nearby enemies.

Stone Glyph: Transmit a blast of kinetic energy into the earth, causing the energy to send the earth into air in a concussive blast.

Only part posing difficulty to me is the reload mechanism. Mana potion would seem the old school solution, but I'd like something along the lines of crushing a stone, charged with the recharge energy, like in dark souls. Any other suggestions on that or the above mentioned would be more than welcome.

We already have a class that aligns itself with Anacrothe and a class descended from Azimuth’s former cenobites, as well as a class that inhabits the region of Dark Eden. I don’t think we actually need to make any more tie-ins. It would be nice to see a new order arise, still influenced by the hylden, but with a new purpose and philosophy now that the Hash’ak’gik cult is dead and buried. Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace.

I definitely like the idea of using the glyph magic and I agree that the hylden should be the influence that leads the human group to the shrines. After all, some of the magic only has an effect on the vampires due to the hylden’s curse. I’d like to bring the start of the story forward a little though, as the hylden were planning to wipe out Nosgoth’s other inhabitants and I’d see them as very unlikely to take on the sharing gods role with humans. I think the elemental glyphs being introduced into Nosgoth by the hylden should be made canon, but only after their banishment, where they are forced to use humans as their tools. If the elemental glyphs were only introduced after the collapse of the pillars then this would also provide an explanation for why Raziel can no longer use this magic after he travels back in time.

I also like your idea of the glyphs damaging or corrupting the human’s bodies in some way, as I’ve always thought of them as being corrupt elements introduced by the hylden from the Demon Realm. Again, this hasn’t actually been made canon, despite the similarly named “glyph energy” in BO2.

I would also like to propose a slight variation on the magical effects you’ve described. The glyph elements were also harmful to humans, so this lends itself to two types of attack:
(1) Harmful to humans – directed attacks to avoid collateral.
(2) Harmful to only vampires – omnidirectional weaker attack.

All six glyphs could then be incorporated and you’d have to choose which you would use. I’ll lay it out as I see it:

Directed
Telekinesis – short-range directed attack to knock down opponents, but weak and only really for strategy (e.g. to escape, or make opponent vulnerable to others).
Earth – long-range attack causes targeted earth to explode, emitting shrapnel at vampire (only works targeting earth).
Fire – long-range fireball… just imagine knocking a pouncing reaver out of the air.
Omnidirectional
Water – low damage, scorching water burst.
Sound – very low damage, but creates disorientation/dizziness effect.
Sunlight – low damage and creates vision problems for very brief period.

Each of these would require a recharge period proportional to the power required, as the character would need absorb eldritch (another hint at possible Demon Dimension origin – eldritch means “other worldly”) energy, possibly from the shrine long-distance.

I do like your sceptre idea, but I’d like to see a class of human that’s hands-free and this one is the obvious choice.

On a different class of human from this, I would like to see a human class that can use tools to climb. I don’t think that only the vampires should have access to the high ground.

Vampmaster
1st May 2014, 15:47
If you want to connect the SR1 glyphs to the BO2 glyph energy, it would be better to say the glyph shrines were created before the banishment and definitely not refer to the hylden by name, since no one knows who they are at this point. Even in the third/fourth timeline, they would have been laying low in the demon dimension. If they had any influence at all, it would be minimal.

"Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace." That doesn't sound overly obvious. As long as they're sort of in the shadows and not announcing themselves for all to hear.

Ruevergne
1st May 2014, 17:50
If you want to connect the SR1 glyphs to the BO2 glyph energy, it would be better to say the glyph shrines were created before the banishment and definitely not refer to the hylden by name, since no one knows who they are at this point. Even in the third/fourth timeline, they would have been laying low in the demon dimension. If they had any influence at all, it would be minimal.

"Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace." That doesn't sound overly obvious. As long as they're sort of in the shadows and not announcing themselves for all to hear.

I agree that the hylden should not be mentioned by name, but I think having them pretend to be gods/a god would create confusion as to whether the Elder God or the hylden were behind it. The hylden did indeed explore powers derived from the Demon Dimensions prior to their banishment, as Janos Aurdon attests in BO1, but it would not make sense to establish the elemental glyphs before their banishment, as at least one of the glyphs (sunlight) would have no effect on their enemies. Additionally, since it would be highly impractical to have a species that cannot touch water and whose members die upon hearing certain sounds, I suspect that the vampires’ reaction to water and sound are also part of their multi-faceted curse. Remember that, though the hylden cannot escape into Nosgoth without Janos and a weakened binding, the demons can come and go as they please and the hylden can still possess humans. Since the humans have also displayed dimensional powers, it is easily feasible that the hylden could have manipulated them into establishing the elemental glyphs in any of the timelines. This would not require the Hylden Lord’s escape and would explain why the glyphs exist in the SR1 timeline despite the glyph network from BO2 never having been introduced. The hylden play the (extreme) patience game and this would make an excellent addition to their establishment of weapons and power in Nosgoth.

The possession aspect may not sound overly obvious, but if the green, glowing eyes are described then the link becomes more obvious to all who have played Defiance.

GenFeelGood
1st May 2014, 18:46
If you want to connect the SR1 glyphs to the BO2 glyph energy, it would be better to say the glyph shrines were created before the banishment and definitely not refer to the hylden by name, since no one knows who they are at this point. Even in the third/fourth timeline, they would have been laying low in the demon dimension. If they had any influence at all, it would be minimal.

This was my intention for the hylden element of the lore. The texts they discovered about the shrines, unknown to them, predated the pillars and were written by the servants of hylden who saw them as Gods like other ancient men did for the ancient vampires. The shrines were an attempt at bring humanity into service as soldiers for the hylden in their losing war against the ancient vampires, shortly before their banishment.

In the aftermath of the hylden's banishment, the ancient vampires began to purge these hylden disciples and all record & remnants of the hylden civilization. This purge was carried on by the first human circle until they rebelled against what remained of the ancient vampires. After this rebellion, what records and texts remained from these disciples were collected and studied at the direction of Mobius. Mobius was commanded to do this by the Elder God in the first step towards bring the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth.
After Vorador slaughtered six of the guardians of circle, the surviving three (Mobius, Malek, and Mortanius) decided to seal the texts away from the eyes of the new guardians, keeping them ignorant of what was in motion.


We already have a class that aligns itself with Anacrothe and a class descended from Azimuth’s former cenobites, as well as a class that inhabits the region of Dark Eden. I don’t think we actually need to make any more tie-ins. It would be nice to see a new order arise, still influenced by the hylden, but with a new purpose and philosophy now that the Hash’ak’gik cult is dead and buried. Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace.

The disciples don't align themselves with Anacrothe or any of the circle guardians at this point (that was simply part of their origin story) and Dark Eden (more specifically the Castle) is where they escaped from. They inhabit an underground tunnel network, along with the underground city called the Human Citadel, which they crafted over the time of Kain's empire. The disciples are in this fight in a bid to take over Nosgoth once the vampires are exterminated, and who is to say that the hylden aren't exerting some type of influence or control over them through these glyphs.

Ruevergne
1st May 2014, 21:26
This was my intention for the hylden element of the lore. The texts they discovered about the shrines, unknown to them, predated the pillars and were written by the servants of hylden who saw them as Gods like other ancient men did for the ancient vampires. The shrines were an attempt at bring humanity into service as soldiers for the hylden in their losing war against the ancient vampires, shortly before their banishment.

In the aftermath of the hylden's banishment, the ancient vampires began to purge these hylden disciples and all record & remnants of the hylden civilization. This purge was carried on by the first human circle until they rebelled against what remained of the ancient vampires. After this rebellion, what records and texts remained from these disciples were stored at the direction of Mobius. Mobius was commanded to do this by the Elder God in the first step towards bring the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth.
After Vorador slaughtered six of the guardians of circle, the surviving three (Mobius, Malek, and Mortanius) decided to seal the texts away from the eyes of the new guardians, keeping them ignorant of what was in motion.

They could have had followers that saw them as gods, sure, but I feel it doesn’t quite fit the hylden ethos. They were not reliant on humans like Kain’s vampire brood, because they needed no blood. They are obsessed with empowering themselves through technology and magic and it was shown to be their plan to use the Mass to wipe out all vampires and all of humanity. That said, I can’t deny the possibility of worship.

With regards to the shines, as I said before, there would no reason to establish the shrines before the raising of the pillars, as they would predate the curse that their effectiveness is based on. At the very least, the sunlight glyph would not have had any use and I’d imagine the same applies to the sound and water glyphs too. The hylden most likely used some of this magic themselves, but not the shrines. Also, Moebius would not have been commanded to help bring the hylden back into the world. Remember at the end of Defiance, Moebius says, “the hylden are merely and inconvenient consequence”, implying that their presence on Nosgoth is not desired by the Elder God.

I do like your idea of Mortanius and Moebius hiding away some kind of hylden texts though. Malek would probably not have been included as he was shown to have not been born at the time Moebius and Mortanius turned against the vampires. Perhaps these texts could give some instructions on how to create the shrines and draw the glyph magic into Nosgoth.


The disciples don't align themselves with Anacrothe or any of the circle guardians at this point (that was simply part of their origin story) and Dark Eden (more specifically the Castle) is where they escaped from. They inhabit an underground tunnel network, along with the underground city called the Human Citadel, which they crafted over the time of Kain's empire. The disciples are in this fight in a bid to take over Nosgoth once the vampires are exterminated, and who is to say that the hylden aren't exerting some type of influence or control over them through these glyphs.

I’m not saying the idea is bad; it’s pretty well crafted. It’s just my personal preference would be not to see too many tie-ins introduced. They add to the feel that the canon is being adhered to and they give it some continuity. However, they can also make the back-story quite closed and restrictive if there isn’t enough new development to counter it. I should say that there are plenty of ideas in your story that are pretty decent.

GenFeelGood
2nd May 2014, 04:09
They could have had followers that saw them as gods, sure, but I feel it doesn’t quite fit the hylden ethos. They were not reliant on humans like Kain’s vampire brood, because they needed no blood. They are obsessed with empowering themselves through technology and magic and it was shown to be their plan to use the Mass to wipe out all vampires and all of humanity. That said, I can’t deny the possibility of worship.

True but, even with a full hylden work force like there was in Blood Omen 2, they still kept humans as slaves for menial labor and occasional as guinea pigs for experimentation. They don't need humans like vampires do, but they do find humans handy for such things. Better to experiment on something you look at as a rat than one of your own.

With regards to the shines, as I said before, there would no reason to establish the shrines before the raising of the pillars, as they would predate the curse that their effectiveness is based on. At the very least, the sunlight glyph would not have had any use and I’d imagine the same applies to the sound and water glyphs too. The hylden most likely used some of this magic themselves, but not the shrines. Also, Moebius would not have been commanded to help bring the hylden back into the world. Remember at the end of Defiance, Moebius says, “the hylden are merely and inconvenient consequence”, implying that their presence on Nosgoth is not desired by the Elder God.

If that is an issue then let us assume that the curse was not finished when it was released upon the vampires. What if their final act in the onset of their banishment with the formation of the Pillars was originally meant to turn the tide of the war?
Now let us say the shrines were still in development and humans were used to test it (in order to perfect it as well as remove the side-effects mentioned) as part of this multipronged plan revolving around the curse: afflicting the vampires with the blood thirst (make their human allies now their enemies), sterilizing them to ensure they would have no future generations, making them vulnerable to many of the elements (which from what has been seen was the nature of the ancient vampire's power) rendering them almost powerless against the hylden army that was now capable of unleashing this elemental damage upon them, and (if this is the case) then immortality might have been the side-effect they were working to correct when the banishment caused them to release it.



Sorry if that pokes holes in any established lore I am unaware of, but please correct me if it does.

By the way, how about this for the lightning arc Vampmaster?
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130512061632/buffy/images/8/87/Post_lightning.jpg

Vampmaster
2nd May 2014, 06:12
Sorry if that pokes holes in any established lore I am unaware of, but please correct me if it does.

By the way, how about this for the lightning arc Vampmaster?

Yeah, that looks great as well.

EDIT: I disagree with whoever said it should be hands free. Just my opinion, but I think the lightning rod would make a cool looking primary weapon and would be more practical for aiming because you could line up the end of it with your target.

Ruevergne
2nd May 2014, 12:14
True but, even with a full hylden work force like there was in Blood Omen 2, they still kept humans as slaves for menial labor and occasional as guinea pigs for experimentation. They don't need humans like vampires do, but they do find humans handy for such things. Better to experiment on something you look at as a rat than one of your own.

Sure, I’m not against the hylden having used humans in their original war. It’s just that I don’t think it suits their manner to empower them.


If that is an issue then let us assume that the curse was not finished when it was released upon the vampires. What if their final act in the onset of their banishment with the formation of the Pillars was originally meant to turn the tide of the war?
Now let us say the shrines were still in development and humans were used to test it (in order to perfect it as well as remove the side-effects mentioned) as part of this multipronged plan revolving around the curse: afflicting the vampires with the blood thirst (make their human allies now their enemies), sterilizing them to ensure they would have no future generations, making them vulnerable to many of the elements (which from what has been seen was the nature of the ancient vampire's power) rendering them almost powerless against the hylden army that was now capable of unleashing this elemental damage upon them, and (if this is the case) then immortality might have been the side-effect they were working to correct when the banishment caused them to release it.

Sorry if that pokes holes in any established lore I am unaware of, but please correct me if it does.

This is well thought out, but it still doesn’t work.
This is because the immortality is the “true nature” of the hylden’s curse. It separates the vampires from the Wheel of Fate and their god. It was never intended as a tool to defeat the vampires, but as means to unleash spiritual and physical suffering to last for eternity, thus mirroring their own unending suffering. It is also very much classified as being designed for revenge, as explained in Blood Omen 2:

Janos Audron: “By what right did you lay on us the curse that drove us from the light, and made us predators of human kind?”
Sarafan Lord: “It was justice for our banishment from the world.”


By the way, how about this for the lightning arc Vampmaster?

Pretty. Don’t look like elemental glyph magic, but as sorcerers they could have other interesting magic as well.

By the way, you’ve inadvertently quoted me as typing your response. I like to respond one paragraph at a time too. For this you can break down a quote you take from somebody by putting the start and end [ QUOTE ] tags at the start and end of each paragraph. Hope you find this useful.


EDIT: I disagree with whoever said it should be hands free. Just my opinion, but I think the lightning rod would make a cool looking primary weapon and would be more practical for aiming because you could line up the end of it with your target.

It would look cool either way, but, since non-magical classes must use weapons, the only class that could be hands-free would be the magical class. I'd just like to see one included and I think this one would be cool.

A note to the art developers - I too would like to speak out against any time-travellers. I think you're doing really well with the canon as is and time-travellers would... complicate things.

GenFeelGood
2nd May 2014, 18:46
Sure, I’m not against the hylden having used humans in their original war. It’s just that I don’t think it suits their manner to empower them.

In the new section I'm saying the hylden weren't trying to empower the humans, but test these glyphs on humans during their development for later use by the hylden. The belief that these glyphs were meant for humans was likely a deception played by the hylden to make the test subjects more compliant for the procedures or maybe it was a delusion made up by the primitive humans in order to make sense of these things that were done to them. I'm sure the hylden would have taken steps to control the test subjects with mechanism within the glyphs that would afford the hylden control and possibly a kill switch.



This is well thought out, but it still doesn’t work.
This is because the immortality is the “true nature” of the hylden’s curse. It separates the vampires from the Wheel of Fate and their god. It was never intended as a tool to defeat the vampires, but as means to unleash spiritual and physical suffering to last for eternity, thus mirroring their own unending suffering. It is also very much classified as being designed for revenge, as explained in Blood Omen 2:

Janos Audron: “By what right did you lay on us the curse that drove us from the light, and made us predators of human kind?”
Sarafan Lord: “It was justice for our banishment from the world.”

In the end, the curse was used in revenge against the vampires that banished them; and perhaps immortality wasn't a side-effect, but a cruel element of the curse meant to severe them from the faith the vampires held so sacred to them. I'm saying that in the beginning of the curses development, it wasn't to be a game changer in the war. Something as technical as the curse would have taken a great deal of time to craft and perfect, and I can't believe that they would put that much energy and resources, that far back from in the war, into something that was meant for when they were defeated as if it was guaranteed. Perhaps the hylden claimed that the purpose of the curse was revenge for their banishment after the fact because that is what the ancient vampires believed it was from the start.

Ruevergne
2nd May 2014, 20:13
In the new section I'm saying the hylden weren't trying to empower the humans, but test these glyphs on humans during their development for later use by the hylden. The belief that these glyphs were meant for humans was likely a deception played by the hylden to make the test subjects more compliant for the procedures or maybe it was a delusion made up by the primitive humans in order to make sense of these things that were done to them. I'm sure the hylden would have taken steps to control the test subjects with mechanism within the glyphs that would afford the hylden control and possibly a kill switch.

I like the idea that the hylden would have experimented on humans. It fits them very well. However, the elemental glyphs still don’t fit…


In the end, the curse was used in revenge against the vampires that banished them; and perhaps immortality wasn't a side-effect, but a cruel element of the curse meant to severe them from the faith the vampires held so sacred to them. I'm saying that in the beginning of the curses development, it wasn't to be a game changer in the war. Something as technical as the curse would have taken a great deal of time to craft and perfect, and I can't believe that they would put that much energy and resources, that far back from in the war, into something that was meant for when they were defeated as if it was guaranteed. Perhaps the hylden claimed that the purpose of the curse was revenge for their banishment after the fact because that is what the ancient vampires believed it was from the start.

The immortality was not a side-effect. This fact is crucial in the series’ canon, as even Janos Audron himself attests that, “they imprisoned our souls in this flesh”. Remember that the war was started in the name of the Oracle/Elder God and his Wheel of Fate. It was the ultimate in revenge and poetic irony. Two of the other aspects of the curse relate to the pillars in a devious and circuitous fashion: the sterility ensures that no further vampire guardians will be born, shifting the guardianships on to the less competent, human race; then the blood thirst served to alienate the vampires from mankind, which, along with the Elder God’s manipulations of Moebius, resulted the humans rebelling and claiming the pillars for their own.

I admit, you have found a way of circumventing these aspects of the plot. However, think what it would mean to the story’s canon:
-Raziel’s interpretation, confirmed by the last of the ancients, Janos, would have to be incorrect, undermining important aspects of the story.
-The hylden, rather than planning the most insidious and cunning revenge along with “the seduction of the Circle and possession of Mortanius; Ariel's murder; the corruption and collapse of the Pillars” which was “all orchestrated”, would have accidentally and somewhat conveniently cursed them with just the right afflictions. This would destroy the intelligent and devious image of an almost insurmountable foe and replace it with a race of individuals who would be left scratching their heads as to how such a brilliant strategy came about without any forethought.

Sorry, I know having your ideas broken down isn’t nice. It’s just that, if were to bring the creation of the glyph shrines forward to after the second time period in Soul Reaver 2, I really think you’d be on to something.

GenFeelGood
3rd May 2014, 04:10
Sorry, I know having your ideas broken down isn’t nice. It’s just that, if were to bring the creation of the glyph shrines forward to after the second time period in Soul Reaver 2, I really think you’d be on to something.

No need for sorry, this is along the lines of what I was hope to get when I first posted about the Disciples. Stories get better written as well as more refined when bounced back and forth.

I'm not looking to ruin the hylden's image or downplay what the achieved, but in LoK they were not the ultimate enemy, the Elder God was. The Elder God commanded the ancient vampires to go to war against the hylden which resulted in the curse. After the curse, the Elder God ceased to speak to the ancient vampires knowing the rejection would drive most of them to suicide. The Elder God corrupted Mobius, turning him as well as the rest of the human circle against what remained of the ancient vampires and all vampires down the line. If what I said about the texts works out, then it was the Elder God whose schemes brought the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth in the first place.

As you mentioned, Mobius remarked that the hylden were merely a necessary nuisance and Raziel's final words to Kain were that he would now see the true enemy, which was not the hylden.

Just to be clear, your contention is that the glyph shrines should be crafted by the hylden during the time surrounding Blood Omen 2?

XJadeDragoonX
3rd May 2014, 14:12
I thought about this really fast before work and figured i should share. Tell me your thoughts

I think the humans need a tank kind of character. One that can take alot of damage and has great crowd control at melee range.

I find myself body blocking for partners that are low on health quite alot and will happily take a little damage to save my team from a death. So maybe that could be incorporated with a large health pool and maybe like a spiked armor he can activate that hurts vampires for a certain amount of damage whenever they attack while making him take a percentage of damage less.

Another ability could be maybe even be able to switch places with a character so you go in and soak the damage and they teleport to your last position which is not only safe, but enables them to attack their attackers and aid you

A third ability could be he could have like an AOE roar or something that pushes all vampires in melee range back and makes them fall down. Great crowd control.

As for a weapon, he could use throwing axes or something like that. But instead of going far, they have an arching effect and hit the ground after a certain distance. So in long rage battles theyre completely ineffective because the axes dont go very far and he doesnt attack very fast. But in close range, hes a colossus, not a bruiser. Mainly meant to take the damage and crowd control.

What do you think?

GenFeelGood
3rd May 2014, 21:36
I thought about this really fast before work and figured i should share. Tell me your thoughts

I think the humans need a tank kind of character. One that can take alot of damage and has great crowd control at melee range.

I find myself body blocking for partners that are low on health quite alot and will happily take a little damage to save my team from a death. So maybe that could be incorporated with a large health pool and maybe like a spiked armor he can activate that hurts vampires for a certain amount of damage whenever they attack while making him take a percentage of damage less.

Another ability could be maybe even be able to switch places with a character so you go in and soak the damage and they teleport to your last position which is not only safe, but enables them to attack their attackers and aid you

A third ability could be he could have like an AOE roar or something that pushes all vampires in melee range back and makes them fall down. Great crowd control.

As for a weapon, he could use throwing axes or something like that. But instead of going far, they have an arching effect and hit the ground after a certain distance. So in long rage battles theyre completely ineffective because the axes dont go very far and he doesnt attack very fast. But in close range, hes a colossus, not a bruiser. Mainly meant to take the damage and crowd control.

What do you think?

Gladiators, created through controlled breeding in the pins of clan Turel and conditioned through rigorous training in order to make the perfect human specimens for turning into fledgling turelim. Their pins were among they first to be targeted by the human rebellion and now these gladiators work to help free the rest of humanity and slaughter all those who would call themselves the masters of men.

Ruevergne
3rd May 2014, 22:37
No need for sorry, this is along the lines of what I was hope to get when I first posted about the Disciples. Stories get better written as well as more refined when bounced back and forth.

I'm not looking to ruin the hylden's image or downplay what the achieved, but in LoK they were not the ultimate enemy, the Elder God was. The Elder God commanded the ancient vampires to go to war against the hylden which resulted in the curse. After the curse, the Elder God ceased to speak to the ancient vampires knowing the rejection would drive most of them to suicide. The Elder God corrupted Mobius, turning him as well as the rest of the human circle against what remained of the ancient vampires and all vampires down the line. If what I said about the texts works out, then it was the Elder God whose schemes brought the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth in the first place.

As you mentioned, Mobius remarked that the hylden were merely a necessary nuisance and Raziel's final words to Kain were that he would now see the true enemy, which was not the hylden.

Just to be clear, your contention is that the glyph shrines should be crafted by the hylden during the time surrounding Blood Omen 2?

Indeed, that’s true. This is why stories are pretty much never written and edited by just one person.

You are right; they were not the ultimate enemy. However, their deviousness and the genuine threat to Nosgoth that they pose were very deliberately upheld all the way through Defiance and Blood Omen 2. They were the “authors of the demons, and the device, and all that threatens the land”. Their power and malevolence were joined by insanity in the Demon Realm and the threat they posed was intended to be expanded upon in the abandoned game, Dark Prophecy, despite the revelation of the “true enemy”. They were not played down in Defiance; it’s just that the Elder God was seen to be origin of much, if not all, of Nosgoth’s continued conflict.

While the Elder God's influence did play a part in the hylden's return, this was only as a compromise, not hoped for. As Moebius said, "it is a small price to pay for Kain's death". The Elder God is far more concerned by Kain, than the hylden.

With regards to Moebius’s “inconvenient consequence” comment, I wouldn’t read too much into that with regards to lack of power or threat. Moebius and the Elder God did not just conquer adversaries, they conquered entire histories. Since Moebius was killed, we cannot know how they planned to overcome the problem. He may have been referring to the hylden’s defeat 400 years later in the events of BO2. He may have simply been expressing his confidence in the power of his god.

Likewise, Raziel’s “true enemy” comment should not be taken as a dismissal of the hylden. He is referring to the greatest of enemies, not the sole enemy.

My contention is not that it should happen during the time of BO2, or that the hylden should be the makers. In fact, this is not possible, as the events of BO2 only occur in the fourth timeline and as the glyph elements are present in the SR1 (i.e. the second timeline) this would not make sense. This new game, Nosgoth, is based in the era between SR1’s opening scenes – between Raziel’s execution and rebirth in the underworld – and implied to exist in at least the second timeline. Since the hylden require the blood of Janos to escape the Demon Dimension and Janos was not raised until the fourth timeline came about, they cannot be the glyph shrine’s crafters post-banishment.

What I propose is that the hylden facilitated their construction by the humans they influenced. Perhaps the ones you proposed in your storyline. If this construction occurred after Raziel’s forced excursion (~100 years after the collapse of the pillars) by Moebius, it could enhance the background of the previous games by: explaining the origin of the glyphs; explaining what the hylden were doing to further their power in Nosgoth in the second timeline after the pillar’s collaspse; and by explaining why Raziel lost all of his glyph powers when he travelled into the past.


I thought about this really fast before work and figured i should share. Tell me your thoughts

I think the humans need a tank kind of character. One that can take alot of damage and has great crowd control at melee range.

What do you think?

There’s been some disagreement about this throughout the thread. Several people have commented on the fact the game’s designers are trying to maintain the vampires as melee fighters and the humans as long-range fighters. This is one of the aspects that make this game fairly unique. Your design has some interesting bits, but I do prefer the long-range vs melee idea that they’ve been sticking with.

XJadeDragoonX
4th May 2014, 00:20
There’s been some disagreement about this throughout the thread. Several people have commented on the fact the game’s designers are trying to maintain the vampires as melee fighters and the humans as long-range fighters. This is one of the aspects that make this game fairly unique. Your design has some interesting bits, but I do prefer the long-range vs melee idea that they’ve been sticking with.

I agree to an extent. Yes i want the game to maintain a ranged vs melee basis. However, the class i described is still ranged. Still uses ranged attack to fight the vampires. But in a game where the ranged is forced to create a defensive area and fend off waves of melee vampires, they have no defense. Yes there are moves to save you and help maintain your perimeter. However, except for the sunlight vial, there is not a single ability that will not harm the user if used at close range. Arrow volley, turret, the grenade, literally any alchemist move including her own regular attacks all hurt the user as well as the vampire. This particular character i came up with will have the range of the alchemist in terms of actual attacks, but if put in a sticky situation, he can sustain longer than the other humans. This is very similar to the tyrant. The tyrant is good to get in, do quick crowd control, and get out. but instead of offensive crowd control, its defensive. I think its vital in all games with classes to have a tank character on both sides. Right now all the classes on the human side are meant for pure crazy damage. And thats good. However, the time comes when all the classes arent really all that difference. Each vampire is a totally different demon to play as. Scout and hunter, although different, are relatively similar. It would good to have variety and still maintain the ranged vs melee status.

GenFeelGood
4th May 2014, 01:33
I agree to an extent. Yes i want the game to maintain a ranged vs melee basis. However, the class i described is still ranged. Still uses ranged attack to fight the vampires. But in a game where the ranged is forced to create a defensive area and fend off waves of melee vampires, they have no defense. Yes there are moves to save you and help maintain your perimeter. However, except for the sunlight vial, there is not a single ability that will not harm the user if used at close range. Arrow volley, turret, the grenade, literally any alchemist move including her own regular attacks all hurt the user as well as the vampire. This particular character i came up with will have the range of the alchemist in terms of actual attacks, but if put in a sticky situation, he can sustain longer than the other humans. This is very similar to the tyrant. The tyrant is good to get in, do quick crowd control, and get out. but instead of offensive crowd control, its defensive. I think its vital in all games with classes to have a tank character on both sides. Right now all the classes on the human side are meant for pure crazy damage. And thats good. However, the time comes when all the classes arent really all that difference. Each vampire is a totally different demon to play as. Scout and hunter, although different, are relatively similar. It would good to have variety and still maintain the ranged vs melee status.

The devs mentioned an interest in a shotgun style class, for the new guys. Many players have been wanting a human class who is of the same physical build as the Turelims so it can be asserted that these are the ones who the Turelim turn to in order to make more vampires for their clan. Two birds one stone, give these guys a blunderbuss since we already have explosives and firearms have been introduced through the Prophet. Let this guy be the center of the combat formation: slow on the move, players of the other classes moving some distance ahead and behind him while they provide long-mid range attack and falling back behind him when they are engaged with the enemy (this setup could also work for stationary defensive positions).




What I propose is that the hylden facilitated their construction by the humans they influenced. Perhaps the ones you proposed in your storyline. If this construction occurred after Raziel’s forced excursion (~100 years after the collapse of the pillars) by Moebius, it could enhance the background of the previous games by: explaining the origin of the glyphs; explaining what the hylden were doing to further their power in Nosgoth in the second timeline after the pillar’s collaspse; and by explaining why Raziel lost all of his glyph powers when he travelled into the past.


This is an interesting proposition. The hylden lost most of their human following and people of position with Kain's quest to slaughter the circle guardians, and the hylden would have been subtle in their take over of a new faction. How about we change it to where instead of finding maps and texts leading them to the finished shrines from way back when, they find the schematics for them (since the hylden were banished before they could be constructed and used against the vampires in the aftermath of the curse) and set about constructing the shrines themselves with these schematics; as well as with the guidance, and at the direction, of some within the group that the hylden had secretly possessed through some of the artifacts that were found among the hidden stash of hylden contraband? Once the first shrine was crafted and used, the hylden assumed control over all of the remaining acolytes through the glyphs themselves.

Ruevergne
5th May 2014, 12:07
The devs mentioned an interest in a shotgun style class, for the new guys. Many players have been wanting a human class who is of the same physical build as the Turelims so it can be asserted that these are the ones who the Turelim turn to in order to make more vampires for their clan. Two birds one stone, give these guys a blunderbuss since we already have explosives and firearms have been introduced through the Prophet. Let this guy be the center of the combat formation: slow on the move, players of the other classes moving some distance ahead and behind him while they provide long-mid range attack and falling back behind him when they are engaged with the enemy (this setup could also work for stationary defensive positions).

The Turelim’s hulk-like appearance is a result of their evolution. I don’t like the idea of requiring a prerequisite for gaining this strength. That said, I’m not opposed to a muscled class of human, just a melee class. A variation of a blunderbuss could be interesting. I don’t think a human designed to soak damage is a great idea. The vampires in this era are extremely strong and are not supposed to be matched in physical resilience.

Slightly random idea to throw out, but I’ve been wondering whether a class that deals entirely with traps (rope, spring, chemical) would be fun… though the alchemist already uses mines.


This is an interesting proposition. The hylden lost most of their human following and people of position with Kain's quest to slaughter the circle guardians, and the hylden would have been subtle in their take over of a new faction. How about we change it to where instead of finding maps and texts leading them to the finished shrines from way back when, they find the schematics for them (since the hylden were banished before they could be constructed and used against the vampires in the aftermath of the curse) and set about constructing the shrines themselves with these schematics; as well as with the guidance, and at the direction, of some within the group that the hylden had secretly possessed through some of the artifacts that were found among the hidden stash of hylden contraband? Once the first shrine was crafted and used, the hylden assumed control over all of the remaining acolytes through the glyphs themselves.

You still run up against the same problem whether the hylden built the shrines or planned them. It still implies that they planned their revenge/the curse prior to their banishment which does not make sense. Better to say that they used the eldritch magic in a non-elemental fashion in the war (as they are seen to do on other occasions).

I actually quite like the idea that the hylden maintain only loose control, since the humans are already trying to wipe out their adversaries anyway. Mine if I rewrite your original premise to illustrate?

GenFeelGood
5th May 2014, 14:07
You still run up against the same problem whether the hylden built the shrines or planned them. It still implies that they planned their revenge/the curse prior to their banishment which does not make sense. Better to say that they used the eldritch magic in a non-elemental fashion in the war (as they are seen to do on other occasions).

I actually quite like the idea that the hylden maintain only loose control, since the humans are already trying to wipe out their adversaries anyway. Mine if I rewrite your original premise to illustrate?

I am saying the curse was planned out before their banishment, but originally as part of a plan meant to turn the tide of the war. The idea that the hylden just came up with something like the curse in the moments during their banishment doesn't make sense either. If it was that easy for them to do something that complex in such a short period of time then there is no reason why they should have been losing the war.
I would like to say that the shrines were meant to be part of this plan, but if it somehow makes more sense that they were a side project, to replicate the ancients vampire's power, that got abandoned to pursue the development of the curse then that is fine.

My mistake, when I said control over all of them I meant the hylden were now able to influence them.

By all means, have at it and write it how you want it.

Ruevergne
7th May 2014, 15:40
I am saying the curse was planned out before their banishment, but originally as part of a plan meant to turn the tide of the war. The idea that the hylden just came up with something like the curse in the moments during their banishment doesn't make sense either. If it was that easy for them to do something that complex in such a short period of time then there is no reason why they should have been losing the war.
I would like to say that the shrines were meant to be part of this plan, but if it somehow makes more sense that they were a side project, to replicate the ancients vampire's power, that got abandoned to pursue the development of the curse then that is fine.

This just goes back to what we discussed before though.

Immortality and the ability to repair your own body by consuming the blood of your enemies are not normally considered to be strategically viable abilities to ‘curse’ your enemies with and the immortality was planned.


The immortality was not a side-effect. This fact is crucial in the series’ canon, as even Janos Audron himself attests that, “they imprisoned our souls in this flesh”. Remember that the war was started in the name of the Oracle/Elder God and his Wheel of Fate. It was the ultimate in revenge and poetic irony. Two of the other aspects of the curse relate to the pillars in a devious and circuitous fashion: the sterility ensures that no further vampire guardians will be born, shifting the guardianships on to the less competent, human race; then the blood thirst served to alienate the vampires from mankind, which, along with the Elder God’s manipulations of Moebius, resulted the humans rebelling and claiming the pillars for their own.

I admit, you have found a way of circumventing these aspects of the plot. However, think what it would mean to the story’s canon:
-Raziel’s interpretation, confirmed by the last of the ancients, Janos, would have to be incorrect, undermining important aspects of the story.
-The hylden, rather than planning the most insidious and cunning revenge along with “the seduction of the Circle and possession of Mortanius; Ariel's murder; the corruption and collapse of the Pillars” which was “all orchestrated”, would have accidentally and somewhat conveniently cursed them with just the right afflictions. This would destroy the intelligent and devious image of an almost insurmountable foe and replace it with a race of individuals who would be left scratching their heads as to how such a brilliant strategy came about without any forethought.



My mistake, when I said control over all of them I meant the hylden were now able to influence them.

Gotcha.


By all means, have at it and write it how you want it.

Okay... I’m going to iron out the plot discrepancies and (forgive me) use a little creative license. Apologies for any sloppiness... I really should be spending more time sanding my walls...

Once upon a time…

The destruction of Avernus; the fall of the circle; the collapse of the pillars; plague conflict… these dark times created refugees in their tens of thousands. Generations past and many of their descendants had become nomads. Some founded settlements hidden within Nosgoth’s great central forests and the nomadic way of life dwindled. Time went past and the upheaval began once more; Kain, his lieutenants and their brood came from the west tearing their way through the settlements and the refugees scattered and fled.

While recovering from their flight, a group taking shelter in the ruins of Avernus discovered secret chambers revealed amongst the Cathedral’s decay. Little remained, but, hidden away by Mortanius in the early days of the first human Circle of Nine, texts belonging to an ancient civilisation spoke of otherworldly power and the flames of revenge ignited within the migrants’ hearts.

It was during this second diaspora that the spirits first came to the migrants’ aid. They spoke through the bodies of the possessed; the green blaze of their souls lit the eyes of their host. They spoke of imprisonment by the vampires and freedom upon their deaths; they spoke familial tales that eased the hearts of those bereaved of loved ones; and as time went by the migrants began to comprehend the teachings of the spirits – the blood was merely a prerequisite for trapping the souls of their victims within the vampires flesh – futile substitutes for the absence of their own souls.

The lessons imparted by the imprisoned souls were confined and brief, but fuelled by spiritual zeal the migrants managed to use this knowledge to harvest from the teachings of the texts. They constructed shrines to draw eldritch magic into the world and the elemental glyphs were born. These glyphs imbued their users with powers that, but for their teachings, would have been beyond their comprehension. Intoxicated by power and righteousness, they ignored the side effects each glyph wrought upon their bodies.

With each new glyph their bodies became blighted and grew numb, but the fires within their hearts ripened and the order of the acolytes began to enact justice upon the vampires; surreptitious and measured, but steady. The acolytes now lost much of their ability to empathize with the living; they lived for the dead.

Knowing they were outnumbered, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels facilitating travel to the glyph shrines. To refill their ranks they clung to the edges of Nosgoth’s remaining human civilisations, enticing others with the promises of safety and retribution.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, the acolytes joined humanity in the war against the vampires. Endowed with a sense of righteous piety, generations of hatred and rage broke forth and the acolytes unleashed the full force of their fury on the battlefield.

GenFeelGood
7th May 2014, 18:13
This just goes back to what we discussed before though.
Okay... I’m going to iron out the plot discrepancies and (forgive me) use a little creative license. Apologies for any sloppiness... I really should be spending more time sanding my walls...

Once upon a time…

The destruction of Avernus; the fall of the circle; the collapse of the pillars; plague conflict… these dark times created refugees in their tens of thousands. Generations past and many of their descendants had become nomads. Some founded settlements hidden within Nosgoth’s great central forests and the nomadic way of life dwindled. Time went past and the upheaval began once more; Kain, his lieutenants and their brood came from the west tearing their way through the settlements and the refugees scattered and fled.

While recovering from their flight, a group taking shelter in the ruins of Avernus discovered secret chambers revealed amongst the Cathedral’s decay. Little remained, but, hidden away by Mortanius in the early days of the first human Circle of Nine, texts belonging to an ancient civilisation spoke of otherworldly power and the flames of revenge ignited within the migrants’ hearts.

It was during this second diaspora that the spirits first came to the migrants’ aid. They spoke through the bodies of the possessed; the green blaze of their souls lit the eyes of their host. They spoke of imprisonment by the vampires and freedom upon their deaths; they spoke familial tales that eased the hearts of those bereaved of loved ones; and as time went by the migrants began to comprehend the teachings of the spirits – the blood was merely a prerequisite for trapping the souls of their victims within the vampires flesh – futile substitutes for the absence of their own souls.

The lessons imparted by the imprisoned souls were confined and brief, but fuelled by spiritual zeal the migrants managed to use this knowledge to harvest from the teachings of the texts. They constructed shrines to draw eldritch magic into the world and the elemental glyphs were born. These glyphs imbued their users with powers that, but for their teachings, would have been beyond their comprehension. Intoxicated by power and righteousness, they ignored the side effects each glyph wrought upon their bodies.

With each new glyph their bodies became blighted and grew numb, but the fires within their hearts ripened and the order of the acolytes began to enact justice upon the vampires; surreptitious and measured, but steady. The acolytes now lost much of their ability to empathize with the living; they lived for the dead.

Knowing they were outnumbered, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels facilitating travel to the glyph shrines. To refill their ranks they clung to the edges of Nosgoth’s remaining human civilisations, enticing others with the promises of safety and retribution.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, the acolytes joined humanity in the war against the vampires. Endowed with a sense of righteous piety, generations of hatred and rage broke forth and the acolytes unleashed the full force of their fury on the battlefield.

Okay, it makes some sense but I do have concerns.
-You don't want this class to be a tie-in from previous games or come from locations already used in other class' origins, a complete original in those terms. So why did you move them from Malek's Bastion to Avernus where the Prophets already come from; and why would they seek safety in a place that could still be swarming with demons?
-Because you don't want this class to have a tie-in to the series, you say they are just random refugees and not surviving acolytes of the circle nine; but, as has been said, the hylden's power was pure eldritch energy, not elemental and as you insist the hylden never have need to develop it into something elemental. Then where did the knowledge to craft it into elemental power come from; because, as you say, it didn't come from the hylden and these guys don't have the background to explain it either?

Aside from those issues the rest is sound.

Ruevergne
8th May 2014, 23:33
Okay, it makes some sense but I do have concerns.
-You don't want this class to be a tie-in from previous games or come from locations already used in other class' origins, a complete original in those terms. So why did you move them from Malek's Bastion to Avernus where the Prophets already come from; and why would they seek safety in a place that could still be swarming with demons?

Good questions… I didn’t explain some of it very well.

I think Malek’s Bastion is a good location to choose as well, but there’re a problems. Malek was not present in the ancients’ depictions of Mortanius and Moebius’ uprising against them. Vorador also hints at his lesser age, saying, “Whelp! As if you knew what eternity was!” Though Moebius and Mortanius are younger than Vorador, they are at least 2,500 years old. Since Malek is implied not to have been present when the vampires still controlled the pillars, he would not have been schooled in the ancient prophecies and would be unlikely to have the same access to scriptures as the two older guardians. The next problem is that Malek’s Bastion is supposed to have been not only destroyed, but so inaccessible that Kain was forced to fly in order to gain access. Upon gaining access he discovered that the location was so inhospitable that many of the guards had frozen to death. The refugees simply would not have succeeded and it wouldn’t have fitted the existing story well.

The reason I chose Avernus was that Mortanius’s involvement with the Hash’ak’gik cult already gives him a strong connection to the hylden/Unspoken and, therefore, he would have the most motivation to keep the texts at hand. Moebius on the other hand serves a god who considers the hylden to be abominations. Additionally, the Oracle’s Cave is highly inaccessible and located in deadly terrain. Avernus was destroyed in BO1 and with the death of Azimuth the demon infestation would have died away long before our refugees fled Kain’s forces hundreds of years later. Likewise, the Prophets left before Azimuth’s death after her corruption by Nupraptor’s curse. The refugees are a mixed group and are not from Avernus, but merely seeking shelter as they pass through.


-Because you don't want this class to have a tie-in to the series, you say they are just random refugees and not surviving acolytes of the circle nine; but, as has been said, the hylden's power was pure eldritch energy, not elemental and as you insist the hylden never have need to develop it into something elemental. Then where did the knowledge to craft it into elemental power come from; because, as you say, it didn't come from the hylden and these guys don't have the background to explain it either?

Aside from those issues the rest is sound.

I chose to detach them from the circle as a lot of the new stories have been heavily connected to them. I prefer the idea of a new culture emerging from a mixed diaspora. More specifically, a superstitious, but atheist group of spiritualists, as I like the idea of introducing godlessness into the storyline.

The hylden would originally have had no use for at least one of the elements previously, but since the vampires of Kain’s empire are known to be susceptible to the elements the hylden would be guiding the humans to bring these new weapons into the world and deploy them to cull their enemies in advance of their planned return. So I’m saying the hylden would developed these weapon concepts in exile in the centuries/aeons after their deployment of the curse.

Do you realise that between us we’ve probably covered a small essay on this idea and the devs are quite possibly not interested at all? ...Do you think we might be nuts?

GenFeelGood
9th May 2014, 03:12
Do you realise that between us we’ve probably covered a small essay on this idea and the devs are quite possibly not interested at all? ...Do you think we might be nuts?

The thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion. I'd say you and I have pretty much spoiled this thread and if I knew it would have gone this far I would have asked that we do this back and forth through PM instead; but if the devs use any of it: ideas regarding origins, abilities, weapons, or places in the LoK lore then I'll say it was worth it. I think we should stop for now or continue it through PM, agreed?

I have a final thought before we stop and this is with regard to the origins of these elemental weaknesses; and it actually supports your version better. What if these elemental weakness weren't placed upon the ancient vampires by the curse and then passed on to the humans they turned; but instead these weakness originally manifested in the humans that were turned as a side-effect of the curse, due to their differences in anatomy? It was never said that these weakness afflicted the ancient vampires and the elemental damage of Raziel's wraith blade didn't seem to make much difference in the fight against a possessed Janos Audron.

And no, we're not nuts, were Legacy of Kain fans and Legacy of Kain fans like to be thorough when it comes to lore. When the lore is inconsistent we get Blood Omen 2 and none of us want a repeat of that.

RainaAudron
9th May 2014, 11:10
I think Malek’s Bastion is a good location to choose as well, but there’re a problems. Malek was not present in the ancients’ depictions of Mortanius and Moebius’ uprising against them.

Malek´s Bastion seems to be built upon ancient forge/ruins as the concepts of Dark Prophecy show us.

Lord_Aevum
9th May 2014, 12:18
What if these elemental weakness weren't placed upon the ancient vampires by the curse and then passed on to the humans they turned; but instead these weakness originally manifested in the humans that were turned as a side-effect of the curse, due to their differences in anatomy? It was never said that these weakness afflicted the ancient vampires and the elemental damage of Raziel's wraith blade didn't seem to make much difference in the fight against a possessed Janos Audron.

I don't think it's safe to say this. Elemental damage is largely meaningless against all bosses in Defiance (including Turel). Also, it's Janos Audron, the oldest ancient vampire in the history of Nosgoth. Not a great yardstick when looking for weaknesses.

Given that the ancient vampires began as nature-loving stewards, it makes sense to me that those vulnerabilities were probably targeted at them specifically, to pervert and dismantle their lifestyle. I believe that to the greatest extent possible, the vampires passed on the same uncompromised Hylden curse they possessed, with all its positive and negative factors. Evolution is the only side effect I can think of which doesn't appear to have manifested in the original species (which is logical, since you can't really assume the powers and nobility of the "dark gods" when you already are one).

And indeed, nothing states that Malek's Bastion was created by Malek himself (it makes sense if interpreted as a lofty ancient vampire stronghold, repurposed later on). It was to appear in Soul Reaver at one point, so there is no problem with involving it in later stories. If there's any reason why Malek wouldn't be included in plots after the slaughter of the Circle, it would probably be down to his reputation as a failure and traitor after that event, as covered in Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 2.

Ruevergne
9th May 2014, 22:02
The thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion. I'd say you and I have pretty much spoiled this thread and if I knew it would have gone this far I would have asked that we do this back and forth through PM instead; but if the devs use any of it: ideas regarding origins, abilities, weapons, or places in the LoK lore then I'll say it was worth it. I think we should stop for now or continue it through PM, agreed?

Nah! Look! RainaAudron and Lord_Aevum seem to think it’s worth reading and responding to. If, however, there’s anything you prefer by PM, go ahead.


I have a final thought before we stop and this is with regard to the origins of these elemental weaknesses; and it actually supports your version better. What if these elemental weakness weren't placed upon the ancient vampires by the curse and then passed on to the humans they turned; but instead these weakness originally manifested in the humans that were turned as a side-effect of the curse, due to their differences in anatomy? It was never said that these weakness afflicted the ancient vampires and the elemental damage of Raziel's wraith blade didn't seem to make much difference in the fight against a possessed Janos Audron.

Lord_Aevum already has a pretty good point on this, but I would just like to add that Janos himself refers to the curse “drove [them] from the light”. Even the ancients were burnt by sunlight, though probably with a similar resistance to that of Kain.


And no, we're not nuts, were Legacy of Kain fans and Legacy of Kain fans like to be thorough when it comes to lore. When the lore is inconsistent we get Blood Omen 2 and none of us want a repeat of that.

We are somewhat thorough, aren’t we? And no, no we don’t want another Blood Omen 2. I’m actually writing a sequel script that irons out the problems and I’m going to attempt to get it sorted well enough to submit, but it’s really hard. I keep an eye on everything to do with Nosgoth (the game) here so that I don’t violate any new canon.


I don't think it's safe to say this. Elemental damage is largely meaningless against all bosses in Defiance (including Turel). Also, it's Janos Audron, the oldest ancient vampire in the history of Nosgoth. Not a great yardstick when looking for weaknesses.

Given that the ancient vampires began as nature-loving stewards, it makes sense to me that those vulnerabilities were probably targeted at them specifically, to pervert and dismantle their lifestyle. I believe that to the greatest extent possible, the vampires passed on the same uncompromised Hylden curse they possessed, with all its positive and negative factors. Evolution is the only side effect I can think of which doesn't appear to have manifested in the original species (which is logical, since you can't really assume the powers and nobility of the "dark gods" when you already are one).

Your elemental idea is pretty elegantly put. I definitely agree. With regards to the evolution, I’ve always thought it as being a kind of evolutionary convergence, as the vampire heritage within them becomes more dominant.


Malek´s Bastion seems to be built upon ancient forge/ruins as the concepts of Dark Prophecy show us.

And indeed, nothing states that Malek's Bastion was created by Malek himself (it makes sense if interpreted as a lofty ancient vampire stronghold, repurposed later on). It was to appear in Soul Reaver at one point, so there is no problem with involving it in later stories. If there's any reason why Malek wouldn't be included in plots after the slaughter of the Circle, it would probably be down to his reputation as a failure and traitor after that event, as covered in Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 2.

You’re quite right RainaAudron (Raina/RainaAudron?). However, I am reluctant to take as canon anything that hasn’t actually been made canon yet. Dark Prophecy was subject to change… and cancellation, in fact. Was the planned location even confirmed as hylden or vampire? Even if we were to take either of these as canon though, the facts of the bastion’s inaccessibility and lethal surroundings remain. Lord-Aevum, you’ve a point too, but I think that given that nature of the building and the plateau it’s better that we see it turn up in canon elsewhere.

Eatmycut
10th May 2014, 01:33
When does the prophet will be available ?

GenFeelGood
10th May 2014, 04:03
Nah! Look! RainaAudron and Lord_Aevum seem to think it’s worth reading and responding to. If, however, there’s anything you prefer by PM, go ahead.

Very well, then we shall continue developing the disciples' lore here.





You’re quite right RainaAudron (Raina/RainaAudron?). However, I am reluctant to take as canon anything that hasn’t actually been made canon yet. Dark Prophecy was subject to change… and cancellation, in fact. Was the planned location even confirmed as hylden or vampire? Even if we were to take either of these as canon though, the facts of the bastion’s inaccessibility and lethal surroundings remain. Lord-Aevum, you’ve a point too, but I think that given that nature of the building and the plateau it’s better that we see it turn up in canon elsewhere.

It doesn't have to be Malek's Bastion, but Avernus has been used already. What about the original Sarafan Stronghold on the Great Southern Lake? This was the command center for the original sarafan order, while under the guidance of the original circle of nine; and this place stood on top of catacombs that housed an ancient shrine to the Elder God, as we saw in Defiance . This would have been the first place Mobius and Mortanius felt was secure enough to house the hylden texts. Perhaps these nomads came here seeking safety within its high walls and discovered the texts in the catacombs underneath.

I still want there to be acolytes (to the circle guardians) somewhere among this crowd and I understand why you don't; but, without them or others like them, you're saying it all came from the hylden. I'd like there to be something that humanity contributed to this, other than the labor force.

Edit: I forgot to mention about the stronghold that there were design queues that you saw within it during Defiance that suggest this place was intended to be the human's version of the vampire citadel. Perhaps this was it's original function till it was repurposed in the beginning of the Sarafan's formation and the start of their campaign.

Lord_Aevum
10th May 2014, 19:04
@Ruevergne

You aren't obliged to accept Dark Prophecy material as part of the mythology, if you prefer not to. However, since it's our best and only existing clue about the Bastion's history outside of Blood Omen itself, it's fair to take it into account if producing fan fiction for Nosgoth. The game's developers have so far followed the approach of conforming to all official information they can dig up, even cut content.

The Bastion concept art included base towers designed to allow ascent from ground level to the precipice and fortress above. There was a similar feature in its early artwork from Blood Omen, in the form of a spiral staircase circling the mountain. Kain was to state that "the only recourse [he] had in reaching [Malek's] lofty domain was in flight", though only in cut dialogue which was redubbed. I'm mostly just saying so for posterity, but my point is that it remains ambiguous whether or not humans can scale the peak.

If either of you are concerned that your discussion has been derailing this thread from its intended purpose, I'm able to move the relevant posts over to a new, separate topic if you wish.

GenFeelGood
11th May 2014, 03:09
If either of you are concerned that your discussion has been derailing this thread from its intended purpose, I'm able to move the relevant posts over to a new, separate topic if you wish.

I appreciate that, but I don't think it will be necessary. This thread was dead for two months before this conversation started. I actually had to go pretty far back in my comment history to locate it and just because I didn't want to start a new thread since so many class idea threads have been put forth. There is a thread I have been wanting to do to take a poll on what people want for the next human class; but I suck at setting up stuff like that. Asking questions like what style of class: Magic, Shotgun, Trap and which LoK game for it to be derived from. The hunter and the alchemist seems derived from Soul Reaver while the scout and the prophet seem derived from Blood Omen. I would like more from Soul Reaver just because the development process seems more like following the principles of reverse engineering, "How, who, or what could this have started or done this?"

OFF TOPIC
Another element that was uniquely of the Soul Reaver era and not seen again in any of the others were the warp gates. I wonder if we could tie that in too since the fan-fic is now saying that the disciples crafted the glyph shrines through hylden influence? Maybe they made the warp gates as well, to improve travel back & forth to the shrines and possibly in a strategic capacity during the war?

Ruevergne
11th May 2014, 22:39
When does the prophet will be available ?

I don’t think the developers have said. The answer is probably when they feel it’s ready. The deceivers took slightly over a month after being announced, but this is probably not a reliable benchmark. You might have to wait a few more days or weeks… could be worse; I have to wait until I can buy a better computer.


Very well, then we shall continue developing the disciples' lore here.

“Very well”… read that sentence again, but with Simon Templeman’s voice, making sure to include suitable stresses and small dramatic pauses.


It doesn't have to be Malek's Bastion, but Avernus has been used already. What about the original Sarafan Stronghold on the Great Southern Lake?

Possibly… there are a few issues with the stronghold though:
It remains inhabited by Moebius’s forces and their descendents for at least 100 years after the collapse of the pillars. We see this when the inhabitants are battling demons within it in SR2.
The catacombs are a sacred location to Moebius, but Mortanius had no affiliation with the Elder God and he would have kept the scripts close to him for practical use within the Hash’ak’gik cult.
This doesn’t rule it out completely, but I still think Avernus is better place for them to pick up the scripts. Here’s why:

In the version of the story I laid out, the refugees are not necessarily from Avernus, but from other places, like Coorhagen and Vasserbünde. The mixed group would only have stopped off in Avernus before moving on, so, they’re not actually from there… in fact, neither are the lost seers technically.


I still want there to be acolytes (to the circle guardians) somewhere among this crowd and I understand why you don't; but, without them or others like them, you're saying it all came from the hylden. I'd like there to be something that humanity contributed to this, other than the labor force.

You want a human influence to be able to provide knowledge of the magic involved? I don’t think it’s necessary to link it the circle and if you do link it then you constrain your world a little by suggesting that there was little else, except these groups. However, with the mixed group we do have an advantage here, which is that we can pick influences and blend them in. If you break it down you have:

Moebius – The mercenaries.
Mortanius and Azimuth – The cenobites.
Bane, DeJoule and Anacrothe – None I can remember… monsters?
Malek – His warriors.
Nupraptor – Servants.

I can’t remember whether Malek’s warriors used magic. What about using Vasserbünde’s refugees? We could include some of the servants of Nupraptor amongst them. Since he murdered most of them, some could have fled, taking some magical knowledge with them.


Edit: I forgot to mention about the stronghold that there were design queues that you saw within it during Defiance that suggest this place was intended to be the human's version of the vampire citadel. Perhaps this was it's original function till it was repurposed in the beginning of the Sarafan's formation and the start of their campaign.

I don’t think I agree. The Sarafan’s fortress combined religious and military design. It doesn’t incorporate a city, or town, and isn’t located near one. A citadel by definition is a fortress located in, or near, a town, or city, for the purpose of protecting it. The vampire’s citadel is therefore implied to incorporate or be located near a vampire settlement.


You aren't obliged to accept Dark Prophecy material as part of the mythology, if you prefer not to. However, since it's our best and only existing clue about the Bastion's history outside of Blood Omen itself, it's fair to take it into account if producing fan fiction for Nosgoth. The game's developers have so far followed the approach of conforming to all official information they can dig up, even cut content.

Sure, I understand that. However, since the developers decide what becomes canon, all of that cut content is subject to change. It just doesn’t feel like good material to base proposed ideas on.


The Bastion concept art included base towers designed to allow ascent from ground level to the precipice and fortress above. There was a similar feature in its early artwork from Blood Omen, in the form of a spiral staircase circling the mountain. Kain was to state that "the only recourse [he] had in reaching [Malek's] lofty domain was in flight", though only in cut dialogue which was redubbed. I'm mostly just saying so for posterity, but my point is that it remains ambiguous whether or not humans can scale the peak.

It’s seems likely that they could, as the presence of the warriors would suggest, but it’s more the lethal and impractical natures of it as a location to flee to…


If either of you are concerned that your discussion has been derailing this thread from its intended purpose, I'm able to move the relevant posts over to a new, separate topic if you wish.

Thank you for the offer. I don’t think we’re disturbing anybody though.


The hunter and the alchemist seems derived from Soul Reaver while the scout and the prophet seem derived from Blood Omen. I would like more from Soul Reaver just because the development process seems more like following the principles of reverse engineering, "How, who, or what could this have started or done this?"

The difficult with deriving human classes from Soul Reaver is that there was very little material to go on. The hunter and alchemist classes appear to derive directly from the two types of hunters in Soul Reaver, but there aren’t any further anti-vampire combatants present. Your idea for a glyph magic class is definitely the best idea I’ve come across though. I think it’d poll pretty highly if any of us could bring ourselves to do one.


OFF TOPIC
Another element that was uniquely of the Soul Reaver era and not seen again in any of the others were the warp gates. I wonder if we could tie that in too since the fan-fic is now saying that the disciples crafted the glyph shrines through hylden influence? Maybe they made the warp gates as well, to improve travel back & forth to the shrines and possibly in a strategic capacity during the war?

At least one of these has been demonstrated to be present in the underworld area of Soul Reaver. These areas have been confirmed as belonging to an unknown, ancient civilisation that worshipped the Elder God and are no longer accessible to the living. They do appear to have been appropriated by some other entities though, as they bear symbols of vampire and human locations. To avoid issues, I would suggest that neither side had worked out how to use them. If the vampires could use the gates then the human citadel would have fallen very quickly. Likewise, if the humans could use them, then Zephon, at the very least, would have been succumbed to a massive attack early on. Hmmm... but why are they marked then. I always thought those gates were tricky things in the story...

GenFeelGood
12th May 2014, 04:44
“Very well”… read that sentence again, but with Simon Templeman’s voice, making sure to include suitable stresses and small dramatic pauses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-VkTSzOVmE 19:30-19:32, would simply sample it if I knew how




Possibly… there are a few issues with the stronghold though:
It remains inhabited by Moebius’s forces and their descendents for at least 100 years after the collapse of the pillars. We see this when the inhabitants are battling demons within it in SR2.
The catacombs are a sacred location to Moebius, but Mortanius had no affiliation with the Elder God and he would have kept the scripts close to him for practical use within the Hash’ak’gik cult.
This doesn’t rule it out completely, but I still think Avernus is better place for them to pick up the scripts. Here’s why:

In the version of the story I laid out, the refugees are not necessarily from Avernus, but from other places, like Coorhagen and Vasserbünde. The mixed group would only have stopped off in Avernus before moving on, so, they’re not actually from there… in fact, neither are the lost seers technically.

If there were still demons around the stronghold then there would still have been demons in Avernus as well and Avernus was considered damned before the Pillars even fell so it wouldn't have had the best reputation as safe to traverse. The fact that Mobius' men still occupied the stronghold at the same time supports the idea that these nomads would pass through there to stay safe. It is for this same reason that I say the texts are there as well. Maybe the texts were in Avernus Cathedral; but once it became ravaged by plagues, fire, and demons Mortanius would have sent them away to keep them safely out of the grasp of Azimuth along with her demons and cenobits during their rampage. The stronghold would have been the most likely place he'd send them because he would trust that Mobius would not look upon the texts after seeing what they did to Mortanius.



You want a human influence to be able to provide knowledge of the magic involved?
I don’t think it’s necessary to link it the circle and if you do link it then you constrain your world a little by suggesting that there was little else, except these groups. However, with the mixed group we do have an advantage here, which is that we can pick influences and blend them in. If you break it down you have:

Moebius – The mercenaries.
Mortanius and Azimuth – The cenobites.
Bane, DeJoule and Anacrothe – None I can remember… monsters?
Malek – His warriors.
Nupraptor – Servants.

I can’t remember whether Malek’s warriors used magic. What about using Vasserbünde’s refugees? We could include some of the servants of Nupraptor amongst them. Since he murdered most of them, some could have fled, taking some magical knowledge with them.

Not quite, I want there to be something that the humans developed for the war (that was their brain child and not simply another gift from the hylden) and I'd like this to be their weapons (the scepters).

The glyphs cause damage through broad areas of effect like we saw in Soul Reaver and the scepters channel it into something direct. Its the scepters development and creation that I want the humans to get credit for. Problem is, (outside of the hylden) I can't find any other group in Nosgoth that legitimately would have had the knowledge to craft the scepters except the acolytes (namely the ones for the guardians that are in bold, as well as underlined, in the quote above).

The hylden can have full credit as the source of the magic, elemental glyphs, and what they do. That I have no issue with; but the scepter is something I want to be the human's contribution (building upon that glyph magic by better channeling it through human science).

I don't want the nomads to be completely made up of acolytes, they could be the minority of the group for all I care. In fact, I like the idea of the class starting as an undeclared mass of nomads with very few unifying features that blend into an amazing mix. I just want the acolytes in that mix so that when it comes to explaining the origin of the scepters, it can say that it was something humanity (not the hylden) brought to the table.

Vampmaster
12th May 2014, 10:32
Wasn't it already established in Q&As with the developers that the EG controlled the warp gates? To me, that makes it more likely that his followers build them.

GenFeelGood
12th May 2014, 16:24
Wasn't it already established in Q&As with the developers that the EG controlled the warp gates? To me, that makes it more likely that his followers build them.

If that is true then they were probably made by the ancient vampires.

Ruevergne
13th May 2014, 22:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-VkTSzOVmE 19:30-19:32, would simply sample it if I knew how

That's exactly the bit I had in mind. I would sample and mix it for you, but I’m a little busy with other things. Painting, sanding and drain cleaning are less interesting, but probably more important. If you want to try sampling, you can search the script for the right words.


If there were still demons around the stronghold then there would still have been demons in Avernus as well and Avernus was considered damned before the Pillars even fell so it wouldn't have had the best reputation as safe to traverse. The fact that Mobius' men still occupied the stronghold at the same time supports the idea that these nomads would pass through there to stay safe. It is for this same reason that I say the texts are there as well. Maybe the texts were in Avernus Cathedral; but once it became ravaged by plagues, fire, and demons Mortanius would have sent them away to keep them safely out of the grasp of Azimuth along with her demons and cenobits during their rampage. The stronghold would have been the most likely place he'd send them because he would trust that Mobius would not look upon the texts after seeing what they did to Mortanius.

Not “still”... the demons were a new feature to the stronghold. They would have abandoned Avernus after Azimuth died and it was razed. However, the stronghold of the Sarafan could be used briefly as a stop off while fleeing from Kain’s forces if you prefer. If it is after the demons finish destroying it. During this period it may be just a ruin, like Avernus.


Not quite, I want there to be something that the humans developed for the war (that was their brain child and not simply another gift from the hylden) and I'd like this to be their weapons (the scepters).

Not sure what you mean by “another” gift. Thus far, the hylden haven’t given them anything at all.


The glyphs cause damage through broad areas of effect like we saw in Soul Reaver and the scepters channel it into something direct. Its the scepters development and creation that I want the humans to get credit for. Problem is, (outside of the hylden) I can't find any other group in Nosgoth that legitimately would have had the knowledge to craft the scepters except the acolytes (namely the ones for the guardians that are in bold, as well as underlined, in the quote above).

The guardians you’ve underlined have no known acolytes. None of them possess a sceptre either, though admittedly they’d have far more knowledge on how to create such a thing.


The hylden can have full credit as the source of the magic, elemental glyphs, and what they do. That I have no issue with; but the scepter is something I want to be the human's contribution (building upon that glyph magic by better channeling it through human science).

Personally, I’m still not keen on the idea of the sceptres, as I would really like to see a class of humans that carry nothing in their hands. My idea for human contribution was that they learn to use the magic themselves after the construction of the shrines. This would in include learning to channel the shrines’ magic from afar and learning to focus it like other magic used in the LOK series. Maybe it doesn’t really matter… ideas of what we’d like them to contribute are pretty similar and we each prefer our own.


I don't want the nomads to be completely made up of acolytes, they could be the minority of the group for all I care. In fact, I like the idea of the class starting as an undeclared mass of nomads with very few unifying features that blend into an amazing mix. I just want the acolytes in that mix so that when it comes to explaining the origin of the scepters, it can say that it was something humanity (not the hylden) brought to the table.

Sure, I never meant that the humans had nothing to contribute. It was the origin of the magic that I felt needed to be kept in line with canon.


Wasn't it already established in Q&As with the developers that the EG controlled the warp gates? To me, that makes it more likely that his followers build them.

I seem to remember something like this as well… but I cannot find anything in the wiki about it. It would certainly make sense. The ancient, buried civilisation was known to worship the Elder God and he would undoubtedly want to maintain control.


If that is true then they were probably made by the ancient vampires.

Possibly, but not necessarily. The architecture is of a very different style and the Elder God appears to have gone to some effort to wipe out traces of this civilisation. It’s possible that the civilisation is implied to predate the vampire’s worship of the Elder God.

Viridian24
13th May 2014, 23:38
I see Desert Stalkers being maybe very Arabian like in appearance – it’d be cool if you could have an attack camel but that isn’t ever going to happen :lol:. The Assassins being very much the traditional assassin looking type guys – maybe with some sort of smoke distraction tactics (though I just keep picturing Assassins Creed here :D).

Assassins are overrated. I want an attack camel!!

GenFeelGood
13th May 2014, 23:58
Not sure what you mean by “another” gift. Thus far, the hylden haven’t given them anything at all.

I meant the knowledge to craft the glyph shrines. The source of the Disciple's power.




The guardians you’ve underlined have no known acolytes. None of them possess a sceptre either, though admittedly they’d have far more knowledge on how to create such a thing.

No, none were ever mentioned for those guardians, but its reasonable to assume that each guardian had their own followers. Kain commented in Blood Omen about how pilgrims use to come to Nuprator for knowledge before his madness. Azimuth had her cenobits and many of the members of the Hash'ak'gik cult could have started as her followers, maybe even as followers of Mortanius.



Personally, I’m still not keen on the idea of the sceptres, as I would really like to see a class of humans that carry nothing in their hands. My idea for human contribution was that they learn to use the magic themselves after the construction of the shrines. This would in include learning to channel the shrines’ magic from afar and learning to focus it like other magic used in the LOK series. Maybe it doesn’t really matter… ideas of what we’d like them to contribute are pretty similar and we each prefer our own.

While magic through the hands is what I want when employing the primary and secondary abilities, they need something of a weapon in order to offer attack variations like the rest of the human class weapons in the game. Scepters were what I came up with, but what about gauntlets with the right hand casting the glyph spells (along with the lightning and light based attacks described before)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dqViBrW4AwE/UC1F6Sg0neI/AAAAAAAAE64/OOjm2BoH9j4/s1600/2004_hellboy_056.jpghttp://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/157/5/4/steampunk_gauntlet_for_daniel_proulx_by_skinz_n_hydez-d4tq8gm.jpg
and the left used for melee combat with something like a gladiator scissor or an Indian katar?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RFeQbbSsStI/UKOw_zxW_jI/AAAAAAAAAsI/ip53kEGanws/s1600/154bb751bd87c221862381819142fb67.jpghttp://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/images/s734.jpg

Sluagh
15th May 2014, 17:02
Haven't piped up for a while, as been overly busy with stuff (plus think I need a computer update as my Beta is moving slower than the plot arcs in Game of Thrones). Anyhoo, I was thinking, has anybody seen any evidence of gee-gees in Nosgoth (the world not the game)? I have never seen a horse. I mean, horses are a pretty advantageous weapon for humanity to have, as they compensate on the speed and strength that it lack. However, in the game's era they'd be pretty cruddy, as most of the vampire classes could out-manoeuvre/break them in two, if they wanted too (maybe even fly off with them). But it just struck me as strange - that there aren't any, in terms of the lore or anything. In the Ottmar vs. the Nemesis battle I don't remember seeing any either. Do they just not exist?

GenFeelGood
15th May 2014, 17:56
Haven't piped up for a while, as been overly busy with stuff (plus think I need a computer update as my Beta is moving slower than the plot arcs in Game of Thrones). Anyhoo, I was thinking, has anybody seen any evidence of gee-gees in Nosgoth (the world not the game)? I have never seen a horse. I mean, horses are a pretty advantageous weapon for humanity to have, as they compensate on the speed and strength that it lack. However, in the game's era they'd be pretty cruddy, as most of the vampire classes could out-manoeuvre/break them in two, if they wanted too (maybe even fly off with them). But it just struck me as strange - that there aren't any, in terms of the lore or anything. In the Ottmar vs. the Nemesis battle I don't remember seeing any either. Do they just not exist?

Horses were never seen in any of the games, though I am sure they exist in the Legacy of Kain universe. You never see cows, oxen, deer (outside of the antlers on Bane's head dress), or pigs in any of the games either; but their leather has to be coming from somewhere.

Bazielim
15th May 2014, 18:34
Horses you say?:D Check here:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=126487&highlight=horse
Bo1 mentions hooving and shoeing horses and then there's these:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120513071141/legacyofkain/images/9/9c/SR2-Texture-Mural-DarkForge2.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120301163811/legacyofkain/images/d/d6/BO2-Texture-LC-Stables.pnghttp://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/6/6b/BO2-Texture-HorseAndCoach.png


The long and the short of it is that despite not being featured as a living animal, SR1 is the only game that does not feature horses in some way - and you'd have to suspect the absence of real horses is due to technical limitations; so you can use horses if you wish and cattle are also mentioned :D

Sluagh
16th May 2014, 21:40
"WOOO OMG why no hosses Nosgoth, give now - you nubs X(.....!! Not really. I wouldn't actually want one. Horses would just be silly.Thanks I'd forgotten about the BO 2 stables Bazielim, well spotted. Surely they just bought their leather in medieval leather daddy shops, though?

Tanath11
18th May 2014, 20:32
Base a human class on blood omen ones malek. Lore wise could have the prophet elders summon the souls of long dead sarafen knights and bind them to armor, similar to what mortainius did to Malek.

Class name: Sarafen wraith.
Weapon: spear melee (melee attack, dose not have a power attack, and generally not quite as good as vampire claws)
Special ability: skewer ( throw spear - if vamper is hit he is knocked back if vampire hits a wall during knock back, vampire is pinned to the wall for 2 seconds.)
Primary ability. Phase shift (wraith becomes semi incorporeal, only takes 25% damage for 3 seconds can not attack.)
Secondary ability. Glaive spin (twirls spear around in a arc, knocking vampire back x distance)

Alt ability for lols. Impale a dead vampire (sarfan can no longer basic attack). That vampire can not respawn until the Sarafen has been killed or the spear removed by the vampires team mate.

i think all humans should be able impale a dead vamp body with the x key anyway, it could delay their re-spawn by 5 secs or reduce their starting hp. It be a good game play mechanic and would have a good sr1 feel to it.

.....
Also want to see a human armed with a torch and stake

RainaAudron
18th May 2014, 21:22
Nosgoth has asymmetrical gameplay, so humans have only ranged classes, so that wouldn´t work.

Tanath11
18th May 2014, 21:32
Nosgoth has asymmetrical gameplay, so humans have only ranged classes, so that wouldn´t work.

A middle ground then, A ranged human ( single pistol or one handed cross bow- in one hand) and a blade in the other with a cool down flurry of melee hits on cool down. And a vampire with a short to mid range spit attack or magic range attack attack projectile can disperse after x amount of feet. The lines can be blurred a bit without breaking the game im sure. Might run out of design space if they don't.

Ruevergne
18th May 2014, 21:57
Sorry for the slow response. I've had to decommission my old computer thanks to the ending of XP support. Not to mention everything else... make of that whatever dark and sinister thing you will.


I meant the knowledge to craft the glyph shrines. The source of the Disciple's power.

I still don't know what you mean by “another”, as that's the one and only gift I can think of that they have received.


No, none were ever mentioned for those guardians, but its reasonable to assume that each guardian had their own followers. Kain commented in Blood Omen about how pilgrims use to come to Nuprator for knowledge before his madness. Azimuth had her cenobits and many of the members of the Hash'ak'gik cult could have started as her followers, maybe even as followers of Mortanius.

Mortanius was part of the Hask'ak'gik cult and the cenobites were led by both him and Azimuth, but yes, I agree that they would at least mostly have had followers. Some, such as Nupraptor, may have preferred largely to be solitary though... to meditate for example.


While magic through the hands is what I want when employing the primary and secondary abilities, they need something of a weapon in order to offer attack variations like the rest of the human class weapons in the game. Scepters were what I came up with, but what about gauntlets with the right hand casting the glyph spells (along with the lightning and light based attacks described before)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dqViBrW4AwE/UC1F6Sg0neI/AAAAAAAAE64/OOjm2BoH9j4/s1600/2004_hellboy_056.jpghttp://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/157/5/4/steampunk_gauntlet_for_daniel_proulx_by_skinz_n_hydez-d4tq8gm.jpg
and the left used for melee combat with something like a gladiator scissor or an Indian katar?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RFeQbbSsStI/UKOw_zxW_jI/AAAAAAAAAsI/ip53kEGanws/s1600/154bb751bd87c221862381819142fb67.jpghttp://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/images/s734.jpg

I remember that glove... I remember he had uncomfortable experiences relating to that glove and a certain inter-dimensional portal. It is pretty. As is the katar... but not the scissor... that's just ugly. I know what you're looking for, but I still prefer hands free and have a different idea of the attack variations. In fact, I would like non-attack spells to be an option, for example:

A barrier that could be cast separate vampires, slow them down or prevent them from taking certain routes. This could be used for divide and conquer or escape or trapping.
Other magic, similar to that used by the sorcerers in Defiance, could be employed to protect, or enhance to abilities of, other human classes. Speed, protective barriers, proximity warning magic.

GenFeelGood
19th May 2014, 02:30
I remember that glove... I remember he had uncomfortable experiences relating to that glove and a certain inter-dimensional portal. It is pretty. As is the katar... but not the scissor... that's just ugly. I know what you're looking for, but I still prefer hands free and have a different idea of the attack variations. In fact, I would like non-attack spells to be an option, for example:

A barrier that could be cast separate vampires, slow them down or prevent them from taking certain routes. This could be used for divide and conquer or escape or trapping.
Other magic, similar to that used by the sorcerers in Defiance, could be employed to protect, or enhance to abilities of, other human classes. Speed, protective barriers, proximity warning magic.

How would you offer different weapon stat variations without weapons (can't really trade out your hands for a different pair) and what are you wanting to be the base attack (what would be bound to the Left Mouse Button) ? These are the things I can't seem to figure out.

Ruevergne
19th May 2014, 13:17
How would you offer different weapon stat variations without weapons (can't really trade out your hands for a different pair) and what are you wanting to be the base attack (what would be bound to the Left Mouse Button) ? These are the things I can't seem to figure out.

I mentioned a few things a week or so back, but I'm not 100% sure they fit the game system anyway. Could you do me a favour and be my eyes? I do not have access to the game, mostly because I do not possess a computer that is capable of playing it. Could you tell me more about the attack system, so that I can give you a better response?

GenFeelGood
19th May 2014, 15:44
I mentioned a few things a week or so back, but I'm not 100% sure they fit the game system anyway. Could you do me a favour and be my eyes? I do not have access to the game, mostly because I do not possess a computer that is capable of playing it. Could you tell me more about the attack system, so that I can give you a better response?

Apologies, I wasn't aware of that.
It uses standard keyboard configuration, for the humans they have a central weapon that delivers the base attack (left mouse button to fire and right mouse to focus your aim) and two abilities (Buttons F and Q). Each weapons has a number of variations in their stats (kinda like weapons and gear in mmos) that are better in some aspects while worse in others.

Example: The Hunter's Crossbow
There is a crossbow that hold significantly more ammo per clip and overall, with the fastest rate of fire; but it has the longest reload time and, because the spread on it is so large, it isn't even that accurate at medium range. Then there is a crossbow that shoots 3 rounds at a time so it has no where near the fire rate and its ammo per clip and overall is less than the first; but its spread is so low that if your aim is good enough you could hit something almost on the other side of the map.

The F and Q abilities are for those situations where the vampires are closing in and the weapons are no longer enough to stop them in time. For the hunter he has the bola that binds the vamps so they can't attack for a time and an explosive device of some type (grenades and small primitive rockets).

That is the style of arsenal for all of the humans. A central weapon with multiple variations offering both advantages and disadvantages to one another (No one weapon is better than another, they are all simply different); with two designated abilities for when the weapons aren't enough.

Ruevergne
20th May 2014, 21:17
That is the style of arsenal for all of the humans. A central weapon with multiple variations offering both advantages and disadvantages to one another (No one weapon is better than another, they are all simply different); with two designated abilities for when the weapons aren't enough.

Fairly similar to what I thought, but that clarifies a few things. Many thanks.

Okay, taking a little from your ideas and my old ones:

The glyph elements were also harmful to humans, so this lends itself to two types of attack:
(1) Harmful to humans – directed attacks to avoid collateral damage.
(2) Harmful to only vampires – omnidirectional weaker attack.

I think it would be fun to have the third class of attack based on non-glyph magic. They could base this on their old sorcery. Perhaps some of the sorcerers from Moebius's disbanded army could eventually join them... or any other source. There were many.

(3) Strategic spells

All six glyphs could then be incorporated and you’d have to choose which you would use. I’ll lay it out as I see it:

(1) Directed – left mouse click quick pulse, right to aim and charge attack. The second is stronger, but has a larger cool down time.
Telekinesis – directed attack to knock down opponents (knock down flying reavers if you're good), but weak and mostly for strategy (e.g. make opponent vulnerable to others and secondary attack, or use environs for damage).
Earth – long-range attack causes targeted earth to explode, emitting shrapnel at vampire (only works targeting earth).
Fire – long-range fireball.

(2) Omnidirectional
Water – low damage, scorching water burst.
Sound – very low damage, but creates disorientation/dizziness effect.
Sunlight – low damage and creates vision problems for very brief period.

Each of these would require a recharge period proportional to the power required, as the character would need absorb eldritch energy, possibly from the shrine long-distance.

(3) Traditional Magic – non-glyph/non-eldritch
Lay Barrier – a vertical, temporary and stationary barrier can be cast in front user – can separate vampires, slow them down or prevent them from taking certain routes. This could be used for divide and conquer or escape or trapping. Humans pass through unhindered.
Heal – heals comrades in locality.
Escape – teleports user limited distance away from assailants, but makes user unable to use other skills/attacks for period after.
Impede – Targeted vampire has basic physical abilities such as running and jumping temporarily reduced.
Sense – a proximity warning spell warns of the direction of approaching vampires. Perhaps only specifics, like charging tyrants, hidden deceivers, pouncing reavers and flying sentinels. Note: this ability does NOT relate to glyph armour, which does not exist in this timeline.

Equipment would not be swapped out for other equipment in this case, but magic instead. You would have to chose which magic to equip instead. As you put it before, the glyph magic is damaging to its human users and I don't think they'd be able to use to many types at once.

Iridon4
20th May 2014, 22:01
Frankly I've been hoping for a tanky human class, one that is sort of like the Tyrant but with not the same mobility. I was thinking some sort of melee fighter, someone who's whole purpose is to ward off the vampire and chase them away from teammates. Probably the best way to do this would be something along the lines of a sword and board character, who could block and take a few hits but still be easily taken from sides/back like any other human. Probably a paladin-like style to him, but more fitting to the Nosgoth lore, a 'holy' or zealous fighter who wishes to purify the vampire scourge.

The big issue with humans right now is they aren't terribly diverse. Vampires have a flier, high-mobility, tank, and a class that plays mind games while humans have, a bomb thrower, a sustained DPS/disabler, high DPS/Mobility/cloaker, and soon to be what looks like a heavy nuker. But they all play somewhat the same, a melee based human would be interesting, someone that is given incentive to go toe-to-toe with vampires rather than keep distance and focus fire. If done right it would give Vampires a bit more challenge if one player could run up on them and force them off other humans, acting as a barrier or shield.

GenFeelGood
20th May 2014, 22:07
The glyph elements were also harmful to humans, so this lends itself to two types of attack:
(1) Harmful to humans – directed attacks to avoid collateral damage.
(2) Harmful to only vampires – omnidirectional weaker attack.

I think it would be fun to have the third class of attack based on non-glyph magic. They could base this on their old sorcery. Perhaps some of the sorcerers from Moebius's disbanded army could eventually join them... or any other source. There were many.

(3) Strategic spells

All six glyphs could then be incorporated and you’d have to choose which you would use. I’ll lay it out as I see it:

(1) Directed – left mouse click quick pulse, right to aim and charge attack. The second is stronger, but has a larger cool down time.
Telekinesis – directed attack to knock down opponents (knock down flying reavers if you're good), but weak and mostly for strategy (e.g. make opponent vulnerable to others and secondary attack, or use environs for damage).
Earth – long-range attack causes targeted earth to explode, emitting shrapnel at vampire (only works targeting earth).
Fire – long-range fireball.

(2) Omnidirectional
Water – low damage, scorching water burst.
Sound – very low damage, but creates disorientation/dizziness effect.
Sunlight – low damage and creates vision problems for very brief period.

Each of these would require a recharge period proportional to the power required, as the character would need absorb eldritch energy, possibly from the shrine long-distance.

(3) Traditional Magic – non-glyph/non-eldritch
Lay Barrier – a vertical, temporary and stationary barrier can be cast in front user – can separate vampires, slow them down or prevent them from taking certain routes. This could be used for divide and conquer or escape or trapping. Humans pass through unhindered.
Heal – heals comrades in locality.
Escape – teleports user limited distance away from assailants, but makes user unable to use other skills/attacks for period after.
Impede – Targeted vampire has basic physical abilities such as running and jumping temporarily reduced.
Sense – a proximity warning spell warns of the direction of approaching vampires. Perhaps only specifics, like charging tyrants, hidden deceivers, pouncing reavers and flying sentinels. Note: this ability does NOT relate to glyph armour, which does not exist in this timeline.

Equipment would not be swapped out for other equipment in this case, but magic instead. You would have to chose which magic to equip instead. As you put it before, the glyph magic is damaging to its human users and I don't think they'd be able to use to many types at once.

I like it, but a few concerns to sort out first.
They really want each class to be unique in their abilities so there are very few similarities in what each class brings to the table. With that said,

*There is no friendly fire, there is blow back on you but you can't attack your teammates.

*The Earth is incredibly similar to the Turelim's shockwave and (personally) I'm kinda hoping that that telekinesis ends up in the hands of the Turelim down the line since they are the only vamp not to get new abilities yet and it would fit the lore.

*Fire is kinda signature of the alchemist, which is why I proposed converting it to lightning attacks. Same goes for blinding low damage light which is why I proposed focusing it into a, high damage, laser style beam as the RMB charge attack.

*Water and sound are around what I was after, but rather as F or Q abilities for when the base attacks are not enough. The Impede is what I was hoping would be the effect water has, along with the low damage.

*Healing is pretty much covered with the alchemist and the (coming soon) prophet.

*Sense is a definite yes, the vamps have something similar like the Dumahim saying, "They are near", and the Razielim have echolocation; but what if it was a glyph token that glows when vampires are close enough, like in Blood Omen 2, and not an ability.

*Barrier and escape would work and I have encountered plenty of times in the game where that would have come in handy.

Edit: The Barrier spells sounds perfect for the Earth, raising a wall of stone infused with glyph energy that (like the glyph barriers in Blood Omen 2) repels vampires and is toxic to them when they get too close. There is, indeed, strong strategic value in this. You raise the wall as a charging Turelim or dive bombing Sentinel is coming at you and it stops them dead in their tracks. You raise the wall up between you and the bomb from a sentinel's air strike to protect you from the blast. You raise the wall up in doorways to seal them and ensure vampires can not get through there for a time. Of course because of blow back it would be toxic to you, if you stay too close to it for too long. After a time, the glyph energy subsides and it becomes a plain makeshift stone wall that vamp could instanly punch or charge through. Again, I would like this too be a support ability, bound to button F or Q.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RpgbZcHk_A (Ignore the martial arts and focus on the effects, it is close to the animation I am picturing for this version of the Earth/Barrier ability)

Ruevergne
23rd May 2014, 23:29
I like it, but a few concerns to sort out first.
They really want each class to be unique in their abilities so there are very few similarities in what each class brings to the table. With that said,

*There is no friendly fire, there is blow back on you but you can't attack your teammates.


Ah, didn't know this. However, the principal is still sound canonically and this might be worse bearing in mind.


*The Earth is incredibly similar to the Turelim's shockwave and (personally) I'm kinda hoping that that telekinesis ends up in the hands of the Turelim down the line since they are the only vamp not to get new abilities yet and it would fit the lore.


You're right... something different is needed for the earth glyph power, but not the barrier. I'll get on to that in a second.

The telekinesis glyph really ought to be included if they're going to be the makers of glyph shrines. Perhaps a weakened form of Raziel's version that can be in category (2)? Then the Turelim retain sole possession of the directed attack.


*Fire is kinda signature of the alchemist, which is why I proposed converting it to lightning attacks. Same goes for blinding low damage light which is why I proposed focusing it into a, high damage, laser style beam as the RMB charge attack.


The problem is that lightning is an expression of the land of Nosgoth's principle of energy, and not an extension of an element. This extension turned up in Avatar I believe, but it's not suitable here. The fireball is fairly distinct from any of the attacks that the alchemist possesses and is a nod to techniques demonstrated in SR2 and Defiance. I'd be loath to exclude it.

Again, they are pretty similar. The concentrated beam is a bit much, as no vampire would be able to withstand it, but what about something in between? A pulse, but as a diffuse beam that spreads and weakens with distance?


*Water and sound are around what I was after, but rather as F or Q abilities for when the base attacks are not enough. The Impede is what I was hoping would be the effect water has, along with the low damage.


I like your idea of merging the impede spell, but can we merge it with sound instead. Both water and sound glyphs stun, but sound gets into bodies, whereas water just burns skin. The disorientation and dizziness could be part of it.


*Healing is pretty much covered with the alchemist and the (coming soon) prophet.


I thought prophets only healed themselves. The healing thingy is optional; just an idea that I tried making a little different from the alchemist version. I wasn't that keen on it either.


*Sense is a definite yes, the vamps have something similar like the Dumahim saying, "They are near", and the Razielim have echolocation; but what if it was a glyph token that glows when vampires are close enough, like in Blood Omen 2, and not an ability.


Careful here! Blood Omen 2 tech and abilities should not be included. Even if the events in Nosgoth (the game) do happen in the fourth timeline, they must remain consistent with the second timeline in which the glyph armour and ward gates (etc) never came into being.


*Barrier and escape would work and I have encountered plenty of times in the game where that would have come in handy.

Edit: The Barrier spells sounds perfect for the Earth, raising a wall of stone infused with glyph energy that (like the glyph barriers in Blood Omen 2) repels vampires and is toxic to them when they get too close. There is, indeed, strong strategic value in this. You raise the wall as a charging Turelim or dive bombing Sentinel is coming at you and it stops them dead in their tracks. You raise the wall up between you and the bomb from a sentinel's air strike to protect you from the blast. You raise the wall up in doorways to seal them and ensure vampires can not get through there for a time. Of course because of blow back it would be toxic to you, if you stay too close to it for too long. After a time, the glyph energy subsides and it becomes a plain makeshift stone wall that vamp could instanly punch or charge through. Again, I would like this too be a support ability, bound to button F or Q.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RpgbZcHk_A (Ignore the martial arts and focus on the effects, it is close to the animation I am picturing for this version of the Earth/Barrier ability)

It's nice, but it's too much. We're only dealing with glyph magic as elements. The glyph energy usage was taught in the fourth timeline. Remember that the elements are toxic to the vampires anyway and they would not need enhancing. That said, the elemental control that you are referencing in Avatar was far more powerful than that of this game. The issue is that, if you can raise a wall that can stop a charging tyrant, then you can probably smash one through a wall with a rock as well. It's a bit excessive. Plus, the barriers would also be a nice nod towards Defiance.

Since the element is dangerous to the vampires, why not a dust/shrapnel based attack? It could be used to turn your assailant slightly to alter their line of attack.

In the meantime, if you've any other ideas for category (3), spill the beans. We've dropped two.

GenFeelGood
24th May 2014, 03:40
Ah, didn't know this. However, the principal is still sound canonically and this might be worse bearing in mind.

You're right... something different is needed for the earth glyph power, but not the barrier. I'll get on to that in a second.

The telekinesis glyph really ought to be included if they're going to be the makers of glyph shrines. Perhaps a weakened form of Raziel's version that can be in category (2)? Then the Turelim retain sole possession of the directed attack.
I'm not saying that the force glyph shouldn't be included, but I just don't want it to be that projectile version. The broad blast from Soul Reaver is indeed what I was going for. There are so many instances in this game where single humans get dog piled by multiple vamps and there are very few counter-measures for this.


The problem is that lightning is an expression of the land of Nosgoth's principle of energy, and not an extension of an element. This extension turned up in Avatar I believe, but it's not suitable here. The fireball is fairly distinct from any of the attacks that the alchemist possesses and is a nod to techniques demonstrated in SR2 and Defiance. I'd be loath to exclude it.

Again, they are pretty similar. The concentrated beam is a bit much, as no vampire would be able to withstand it, but what about something in between? A pulse, but as a diffuse beam that spreads and weakens with distance?

As much as a glyph element for each attack type would be nice, the classes each must have a base attack that's nature doesn't change. The scout has many bows that are different but always only shoots arrows, the hunter has many crossbows that are different but always only shoots bolts, and the alchemist has many launchers that are different but always only shoots grenades. We need to fill the gap with something, the disciple has many (blank) that are different but always only shoots (blank).

I am saying, on a scientifically basis, more as a conversion of fire (heat energy) into electrical energy, discharged as lightning (LMB), rather than as an extension of the fire element itself done through magic and I am glad you referenced the energy pillar because this conversion is why I wanted the acolytes of DeJoule in the mix in order to explain how it came about. I know you have your hearts set on Fireball but, as a base attack, wouldn't it be incredibly op? If you are referring to the worshipers at Avernus Cathedral's fire attack in Defiance, the alchemist already nods to it with the base ability firewall.

The light is gonna be a tricky one for us. The alchemist has something similar to what you suggest called the light grenade, I am actually quite fond of using it on escaping Dumahim that are in evasion mode. I am talking about a narrow beam that cuts into a vampire with no damage dealt just for being in the area of it and not in its path, it would be more like a snipe than a shotgun blast. It wouldn't be able to cut the vampire in half or set him ablaze, simply deal a good bit of damage after being charged, aimed, and fired (RMB).


I like your idea of merging the impede spell, but can we merge it with sound instead. Both water and sound glyphs stun, but sound gets into bodies, whereas water just burns skin. The disorientation and dizziness could be part of it.
I was thinking water could be a type of freeze based attack in order to explain where the impede comes into play but I have no problem with that; but what would water do outside of the damage?


I thought prophets only healed themselves. The healing thingy is optional; just an idea that I tried making a little different from the alchemist version. I wasn't that keen on it either.
The prophets can directly heal players.


Careful here! Blood Omen 2 tech and abilities should not be included. Even if the events in Nosgoth (the game) do happen in the fourth timeline, they must remain consistent with the second timeline in which the glyph armour and ward gates (etc) never came into being.
Agreed, but I was think of that as an application developed and used by the hylden back during their wars with the ancient vampires and passed on to the humans now.


It's nice, but it's too much. We're only dealing with glyph magic as elements. The glyph energy usage was taught in the fourth timeline. Remember that the elements are toxic to the vampires anyway and they would not need enhancing. That said, the elemental control that you are referencing in Avatar was far more powerful than that of this game. The issue is that, if you can raise a wall that can stop a charging tyrant, then you can probably smash one through a wall with a rock as well. It's a bit excessive. Plus, the barriers would also be a nice nod towards Defiance.

Since the element is dangerous to the vampires, why not a dust/shrapnel based attack? It could be used to turn your assailant slightly to alter their line of attack.
You have a point, it would be op.

I had thought of something close to the dust/shrapnel attack, involving an fixed area of effect sandstorm where the sands moved fast enough to strip flesh from bone.

Vampmaster
24th May 2014, 10:27
The glyphs from Soul Reaver 1 would be massively overpowered and there's not much point in having all those elements, since you'd need elemental resistance and vulnerabilities per vampire clan to make it worth using one element over another.

Also, you guys seem to be getting mixed up over what the elements were. The ones in SR1 were weapons against vampires and had no correlation with the ones in SR2 and Defiance. They had force, stone, sound, water, fire and sunlight as opposed to dark, light (not sunlight), air, fire, water, earth and spirit. Force wasn't telekinesis, that was the relic you get from the tomb guardian.

Lighting works as a projectile weapon when used as a single directed bolt, which it why I've suggested a lightning rod as a weapon rather than star wars force lightning which has a spread more like the flamethrower. Also, it seems a bit silly to say there's no lightning without the energy pillar. I mean, you can't say the same about conflict as there's plenty if that still around.

EDIT: I was just speaking about the ideas that you guys have mentioned in general, so sorry if it looks like I'm saying one person said something that another did.

GenFeelGood
24th May 2014, 14:35
The glyphs from Soul Reaver 1 would be massively overpowered and there's not much point in having all those elements, since you'd need elemental resistance and vulnerabilities per vampire clan to make it worth using one element over another.

That is why I am looking to convert 2 of them (fire and light) in the base attack and charge attack (LMB and RMB). The other elements I am wanting to make into abilities (F and Q) that each brings something different to the table tactically.


Also, you guys seem to be getting mixed up over what the elements were. The ones in SR1 were weapons against vampires and had no correlation with the ones in SR2 and Defiance. They had force, stone, sound, water, fire and sunlight as opposed to dark, light (not sunlight), air, fire, water, earth and spirit. Force wasn't telekinesis, that was the relic you get from the tomb guardian.

We haven't mentioned anything about abilities using darkness, air, or spiritual and if you prefer we call it stone and sunlight as opposed to light and earth then fine; but aside from the force glyph, that strongly suggests it is telekinesis in the form of a broad blast, the rest of them will do something different but related to what they were in Soul Reaver since all of them were blast style attacks in that game.


Lighting works as a projectile weapon when used as a single directed bolt, which it why I've suggested a lightning rod as a weapon rather than star wars force lightning which has a spread more like the flamethrower. Also, it seems a bit silly to say there's no lightning without the energy pillar. I mean, you can't say the same about conflict as there's plenty if that still around.

I do prefer they use a weapon to deliver that base attack and only one type of base attack with multiple attack variations of it like the rest of the human classes. I am not saying lightning doesn't exist outside of the energy pillar. I am just looking for a way to explain how the fire glyph results in lightning attacks by saying it was the work of the acolytes for the guardian of the energy pillar, who were the Nosgoth equivalent of electrical engineers.

No need for sorry, this is an open thread and anyone who wants offer their input are more than welcome.

Khalith
24th May 2014, 15:00
One thing I wanted to add to this which I didn't see mentioned, on the livestream Corey said that while it may not be a melee class, they ARE looking at adding a class for humans for players that aren't very good at shooting so they can not feel like a detriment to their team.

Connatic
24th May 2014, 16:15
What is their target number of classes for each faction? Have they stated a goal or is it more of a nebulous "We'll never stop adding content" kind of thing with a F2P model?

Khalith
24th May 2014, 17:06
What is their target number of classes for each faction? Have they stated a goal or is it more of a nebulous "We'll never stop adding content" kind of thing with a F2P model?

They said they want to at least flesh out each vampire clan (6 in total) and that the idea of more than one class for a clan is not out of the question and since the sides are mirrored, that means we can assume an equal number of human classes. However, to add all that content they mentioned that a community is required and there has to be a large enough playerbase (and income I assume) to support it.

Ruevergne
24th May 2014, 18:03
I'm not saying that the force glyph shouldn't be included, but I just don't want it to be that projectile version. The broad blast from Soul Reaver is indeed what I was going for. There are so many instances in this game where single humans get dog piled by multiple vamps and there are very few counter-measures for this.

Okay doke. Much less powerful though. It should be a strategic toppling push, not enough to send them flying.


As much as a glyph element for each attack type would be nice, the classes each must have a base attack that's nature doesn't change. The scout has many bows that are different but always only shoots arrows, the hunter has many crossbows that are different but always only shoots bolts, and the alchemist has many launchers that are different but always only shoots grenades. We need to fill the gap with something, the disciple has many (blank) that are different but always only shoots (blank).

You misunderstand. I'm suggesting your system of pulsed and charged attack (left and right button = category 1), so you can only equip one element to the primary attack and one broad (category 2) one to the F button. The Q button is category 3. I'll give examples in a second.


I am saying, on a scientifically basis, more as a conversion of fire (heat energy) into electrical energy, discharged as lightning (LMB), rather than as an extension of the fire element itself done through magic and I am glad you referenced the energy pillar because this conversion is why I wanted the acolytes of DeJoule in the mix in order to explain how it came about. I know you have your hearts set on Fireball but, as a base attack, wouldn't it be incredibly op? If you are referring to the worshipers at Avernus Cathedral's fire attack in Defiance, the alchemist already nods to it with the base ability firewall.

Energy conversion is nice, but I'm not keen. Firstly, I don't think these elements should be Nosgoth's elements. This magic is from the Demon Realm and I think these elements should be also. The fireballs I'm talking about could be rapidly thrown (LMB) or charged (RMB) and would not be overpowered at all. In fact, non-glpyh fireballs were present in SR2 and Defiance. Secondly, lightning magic, being an expression of energy is kind of encroaching on Kain's power...


The light is gonna be a tricky one for us. The alchemist has something similar to what you suggest called the light grenade, I am actually quite fond of using it on escaping Dumahim that are in evasion mode. I am talking about a narrow beam that cuts into a vampire with no damage dealt just for being in the area of it and not in its path, it would be more like a snipe than a shotgun blast. It wouldn't be able to cut the vampire in half or set him ablaze, simply deal a good bit of damage after being charged, aimed, and fired (RMB).

I'm not talking about an omnidirectional pulse any more. I'm talking about a beam, but not as narrow as yours. Think of it more light a torch, or a light shotgun. LMB would produce a pulse of this kind and RMB would produce a short lived torch beam that you could sweep with. The damage would be limited but the RMB attack would hide you in the glare when they're looking into the attack.


I was thinking water could be a type of freeze based attack in order to explain where the impede comes into play but I have no problem with that; but what would water do outside of the damage?

Water burns vampires and the freeze attack that Raziel uses is based on the native, Nosgoth element. Since it gets into every nook and cranny and burns, why not have the burns make them more susceptible to other attacks temporarily.


The prophets can directly heal players.

No heal. Lets leave it out.


Agreed, but I was think of that as an application developed and used by the hylden back during their wars with the ancient vampires and passed on to the humans now.

I prefer that they create their own, non-glyph magic that produces an effect only they can seen. I envisage it as a ring around them at waist height, the edge of which would taper into points towards nearby vampires. The length of the taper denoting proximity. Far off vampires cannot be detected.

Like this, but fewer points, paler, maybe yellow and invisible to allies and enemies:

http://www.kaarellumi.com/asylum/misc/spiky_sun/spiky_sun_tutorial.jpg


You have a point, it would be op.

I had thought of something close to the dust/shrapnel attack, involving an fixed area of effect sandstorm where the sands moved fast enough to strip flesh from bone.

Okay, that works for me, but I still think earth should be in category 1, due to its canonical danger to other humans, regardless of the fact that you cannot harm allies in game. It looks daft otherwise.


The glyphs from Soul Reaver 1 would be massively overpowered and there's not much point in having all those elements, since you'd need elemental resistance and vulnerabilities per vampire clan to make it worth using one element over another.

We are suggesting that the humans do not have Raziel's capacity to use them. They can only use weak spells that draw their power from the glyphs. The spells are supposed to have strategic value based on their form, not on the vampires weaknesses. The only one that concerns me is the water glyph and the Rahabim, but there's no reason that their resistance to a water attack couldn't weaken them against light... for example. This could work canonically.


Also, you guys seem to be getting mixed up over what the elements were. The ones in SR1 were weapons against vampires and had no correlation with the ones in SR2 and Defiance. They had force, stone, sound, water, fire and sunlight as opposed to dark, light (not sunlight), air, fire, water, earth and spirit. Force wasn't telekinesis, that was the relic you get from the tomb guardian.

Not at all. What I am referencing in SR2 and Defiance is the style of the way they use magic (e.g. fireballs), not the elemental source. I am trying to draw a conclusive boundary between the two categories.


Lighting works as a projectile weapon when used as a single directed bolt, which it why I've suggested a lightning rod as a weapon rather than star wars force lightning which has a spread more like the flamethrower. Also, it seems a bit silly to say there's no lightning without the energy pillar. I mean, you can't say the same about conflict as there's plenty if that still around.

We haven't mentioned anything about abilities using darkness, air, or spiritual and if you prefer we call it stone and sunlight as opposed to light and earth then fine; but aside from the force glyph, that strongly suggests it is telekinesis in the form of a broad blast, the rest of them will do something different but related to what they were in Soul Reaver since all of them were blast style attacks in that game.

I'm not saying that it isn't around without the pillar. Each pillar represents a force, principle present in the world... throughout the world. What I was saying was that lightning was not derived from fire. What GenFeelGood is suggesting is that the energy could be converted and I'm saying I prefer to retain its original form.

GenFeelGood: These elements are implied in the series to be analogous, but separate. Hence my idea of making them otherworldly, or eldritch.


EDIT: I was just speaking about the ideas that you guys have mentioned in general, so sorry if it looks like I'm saying one person said something that another did

No problem at all. Input welcome.


One thing I wanted to add to this which I didn't see mentioned, on the livestream Corey said that while it may not be a melee class, they ARE looking at adding a class for humans for players that aren't very good at shooting so they can not feel like a detriment to their team.

I think a diffuse beam of sunlight along with this class's other secondary abilities works quite nicely for this. What say you?


They said they want to at least flesh out each vampire clan (6 in total) and that the idea of more than one class for a clan is not out of the question and since the sides are mirrored, that means we can assume an equal number of human classes. However, to add all that content they mentioned that a community is required and there has to be a large enough playerbase (and income I assume) to support it.

I cannot imagine it going beyond seven. They could include the vampire worshippers, as some people have requested, but I imagine they will attempt to flesh out the abilities, tools and maps. New abilities effectively rework existing classes anyway.

Khalith
24th May 2014, 19:30
I think a diffuse beam of sunlight along with this class's other secondary abilities works quite nicely for this. What say you?

I cannot imagine it going beyond seven. They could include the vampire worshippers, as some people have requested, but I imagine they will attempt to flesh out the abilities, tools and maps. New abilities effectively rework existing classes anyway.

I think an ability like that is possible, if it's meant to focus on those that aren't good at aiming it could be very aoe focused or very support/buff focused, I can't say for sure.

As for the number of classes who can say for sure? I honestly don't know, I personally don't see the number growing beyond 6 per side but that could always change.

Vampmaster
24th May 2014, 20:09
If you want sunlight as a beam, how about some sort of lens on a stick that can be swapped out for the lightning rod? BTW, I mean literally a rod that they hold up to the sky and redirect the bolt to their enemies as opposed to a mechanical cattle prod and a similar thing with the sunlight.

GenFeelGood
25th May 2014, 02:53
You might be on to something with the whole light shotgun Ruevergne.

If, and hear me through, you are willing to bend on a few things? This could be the shotgun style class that Khalith said the developers are wanting for new players in the game. Its a role that hasn't been filled, alchemist comes close with the multi-cannon but not really, and its not just new players that would use it. To fit the other human class' setup, it needs to have four weapon styles, with a connecting mechanic, that each has its own advantages and disadvantages to each other, and at least four abilities (2 to choose for Q and 2 to choose for F). A shotgun mechanic would be more consistent to smaller scale version of what Raziel could do with the glyphs and it fits what we want these glyphs to do in the hands of humans. Here is what I am thinking (I don't know how much you know about shotguns so please ask if you need to)

Category(1)Strictly LMB

Glyph: Shotgun Ammo Type Equivalent (Attack Statistics)

Stone: Birdshot (low direct damage, medium area of effect, long range)
-a cluster of stone shrapnel

Lightning: Slug (high direct damage, low area of effect, long range)
-single focused bolt

Sunlight: Blunderbuss (medium direct damage, high area of effect , short range)
-broad pulse of light

Fire: Buckshot (medium damage, low area of effect, medium range)
-cluster of smaller fireballs as opposed to the single big one you mentioned

and we don't really need a charge up if we do it this way. Only the scout charges an attack with RMB by full drawing the bow, while the rest use RMB just to zero in their aim.

Category (2) F & Q
What we described before with force, and sound glyph, along with the sense ability. With the water glyph I want to put one more idea on the table. Instead of the attack coming in the form of liquid water or solid ice, why not as pressurized searing steam?

It feels simpler and more consist with the weapon layouts of the other human classes, while also giving both of us what we are interested in; but we still need to figure out a melee for the class and a method of reloading. What do you think of something similar to Dark Souls where he or she crushes a stone infused with eldritch energy that was charged back at the shrines?

Edit: For lightning, instead of it being an energy conversion from fire to electricity that needs to be explained, can't we just say there was glyph shrine for a lightning glyph? We could say that the lightning shrine was sealed off or destroyed by one of the many cataclysmic earthquakes or floods that ravage Nosgoth a little further in time.

Ruevergne
25th May 2014, 21:58
I think an ability like that is possible, if it's meant to focus on those that aren't good at aiming it could be very aoe focused or very support/buff focused, I can't say for sure.

As for the number of classes who can say for sure? I honestly don't know, I personally don't see the number growing beyond 6 per side but that could always change.

We'll see. The developers may have other ideas.

I agree. Six classes would suffice and the trouble with introducing non-vampire classes on their side is that they don't have the same weaknesses to exploit. Many of the weapons would be rendered useless.


You might be on to something with the whole light shotgun Ruevergne.

If, and hear me through, you are willing to bend on a few things? This could be the shotgun style class that Khalith said the developers are wanting for new players in the game. Its a role that hasn't been filled, alchemist comes close with the multi-cannon but not really, and its not just new players that would use it. To fit the other human class' setup, it needs to have four weapon styles, with a connecting mechanic, that each has its own advantages and disadvantages to each other, and at least four abilities (2 to choose for Q and 2 to choose for F). A shotgun mechanic would be more consistent to smaller scale version of what Raziel could do with the glyphs and it fits what we want these glyphs to do in the hands of humans. Here is what I am thinking (I don't know how much you know about shotguns so please ask if you need to)

Guns are pretty rare in my country and I don't know much, but I think I get the picture.


Stone: Birdshot (low direct damage, medium area of effect, long range)
-a cluster of stone shrapnel

Shrapnel and dust, but I think the spell should gather material from the ground below as it travels along.


Lightning: Slug (high direct damage, low area of effect, long range)
-single focused bolt

You're very keen on the lightning thing. I would also quite like the idea visually, but I would prefer that this kind of magic belong with one of the vampire classes. It's too close to Kain's powers for me.

If it was used, you could have a bolt that will deviate very slightly towards enemies. Think auto-aim, but cooler.


Sunlight: Blunderbuss (medium direct damage, high area of effect , short range)
-broad pulse of light

Pretty much what I had in mind, but the damage would depend on the range as the light dissipated. The closer the greater the damage, but the harder to hit the target and vice versa.


Fire: Buckshot (medium damage, low area of effect, medium range)
-cluster of smaller fireballs as opposed to the single big one you mentioned

I think this one is better as the 'slug'. You could fire off three in fairly quick succession, or charge it into one nasty one.


and we don't really need a charge up if we do it this way. Only the scout charges an attack with RMB by full drawing the bow, while the rest use RMB just to zero in their aim.

But charging attacks would be half the fun. You mess up, you pay the price with a cool down time, but a good solid hit is more satisfying. The way I see the RMB attacks is like this:

Stone – more damage and leaves a trail of dust to hide in while it settles.
Sunlight – the beam can be swept through an area, instead of just pulsed.
Fire – targeted, strong fireball. I really, really want somebody hit a vampire in mid-air.


Category (2) F & Q
What we described before with force, and sound glyph, along with the sense ability. With the water glyph I want to put one more idea on the table. Instead of the attack coming in the form of liquid water or solid ice, why not as pressurized searing steam?

I think part of the point of the water glyph is to demonstrate the harmful effect in its liquid state. Your idea is aesthetically pleasing though... what about working it into the liquid form? When the spell is cast, the water that makes contact with the vampires vaporises with the burning of the skin and the steam blows off away from the caster.

The separation I was going for was that you would have things like sense and barrier (non-offensive spells) as category 3. Category 2 contains the omni-directional attack spells. In the game, are F and Q functions/tools/weapons equipped from the same list?


It feels simpler and more consist with the weapon layouts of the other human classes, while also giving both of us what we are interested in; but we still need to figure out a melee for the class and a method of reloading. What do you think of something similar to Dark Souls where he or she crushes a stone infused with eldritch energy that was charged back at the shrines?

You edited this while I was responding. I thought you'd posted an entirely new response for a second. :)

Melee? I think the humans didn't have melee attacks. I prefer the idea that they don't reload at all... it just takes time for them to draw energy from the shrines. Similar to the TK meter in Defiance you would have to wait for it to fully refill for best effect, but it would be partly usable after a short time. This might not fit with the game dynamic, but it could just be replaced with with the standard type of time delay.


Edit: For lightning, instead of it being an energy conversion from fire to electricity that needs to be explained, can't we just say there was glyph shrine for a lightning glyph? We could say that the lightning shrine was sealed off or destroyed by one of the many cataclysmic earthquakes and resulting floods that ravage Nosgoth a little further in time.

If you want sunlight as a beam, how about some sort of lens on a stick that can be swapped out for the lightning rod? BTW, I mean literally a rod that they hold up to the sky and redirect the bolt to their enemies as opposed to a mechanical cattle prod and a similar thing with the sunlight.

GenFeelGood: I think a lightning glyph is a bad idea. The glyphs are a mostly reflection of the natural elements:

Fire – Fire
Water – Water
Stone – Earth
Sound – Air
Sunlight – Light
Not included – Dark

I know that we had the force glyph, but telekinesis is a fairly basic ability derived from the mind. It's not an element that the vampires have a weakness to. Once you start adding in other glyphs, you lose/damame the connection to the curse aspect of the story. If lightning is included, it should be magic native to Nosgoth.

Vampmaster: With this last bit in mind, using lightning or static electricity as an energy source to redirect is feasible, because Nosgoth's energy is being harnessed. However, the source of the glyphs' powers is eldritch. The glyph power comes from within, channelled from the shrines. Even if it wasn't, underground maps, night maps and all of the maps involving eclipses would pose major problems.

GenFeelGood
25th May 2014, 22:42
Shrapnel and dust, but I think the spell should gather material from the ground below as it travels along.
What about pulling the shrapnel and dust into where you are standing and launching it in a single cluster from there? To be clear, I am with you now on this being a category 1 direct attack.


You're very keen on the lightning thing. I would also quite like the idea visually, but I would prefer that this kind of magic belong with one of the vampire classes. It's too close to Kain's powers for me.

If it was used, you could have a bolt that will deviate very slightly towards enemies. Think auto-aim, but cooler.
Fine, but this means one of the remaining 3 glyphs needs to be converted to category 1 so we can have four to choose from like the rest of the human classes. Without lightning, we can make fireball the slug round, stone the buckshot, sunlight is good where it is as blunderbuss, and so it need to be something that qualifies as birdshot.


Pretty much what I had in mind, but the damage would depend on the range as the light dissipated. The closer the greater the damage, but the harder to hit the target and vice versa.
I did say you were on to something, but it would be easier to hit the vampires as they get closer to you, not harder, and at greater damage to them as well; and the further away the vampire is the less damage will be done. So at one point, even if you are facing the blast, nothing will happen to you if you far enough back.


But charging attacks would be half the fun. You mess up, you pay the price with a cool down time, but a good solid hit is more satisfying. The way I see the RMB attacks is like this:

Stone – more damage and leaves a trail of dust to hide in while it settles.
Sunlight – the beam can be swept through an area, instead of just pulsed.
Fire – targeted, strong fireball. I really, really want somebody hit a vampire in mid-air.

My concern is that there needs to be a limitation somewhere in this, otherwise you run the risk of taking away from the other human classes. If you allow something like a shotgun class to be able to shoot accurately over longer distances while still delivering heavy damage, then why bother with anything else.



I think part of the point of the water glyph is to demonstrate the harmful effect in its liquid state. Your idea is aesthetically pleasing though... what about working it into the liquid form? When the spell is cast, the water that makes contact with the vampires vaporises with the burning of the skin and the steam blows off away from the caster.

I like it


The separation I was going for was that you would have things like sense and barrier (non-offensive spells) as category 3. Category 2 contains the omni-directional attack spells. In the game, are F and Q functions/tools/weapons equipped from the same list?
Yes


You edited this while I was responding. I thought you'd posted an entirely new response for a second. :)
Sorry, my thought changes rather randomly.


Melee? I think the humans didn't have melee attacks. I prefer the idea that they don't reload at all... it just takes time for them to draw energy from the shrines. Similar to the TK meter in Defiance you would have to wait for it to fully refill for best effect, but it would be partly usable after a short time. This might not fit with the game dynamic, but it could just be replaced with with the standard type of time delay.
The humans have a single unchained base melee attack for when vampire are close and the ammo is out. Its basically clubbing them with their weapons. There needs to be reload of some kind so that the vampires have a chance to close the gap, and so there is more than one reason to go to the health stations ,that reloads your ammo cache while healing you, just like the rest of the human classes.


GenFeelGood: I think a lightning glyph is a bad idea. The glyphs are a mostly reflection of the natural elements:

Fire – Fire
Water – Water
Stone – Earth
Sound – Air
Sunlight – Light
Not included – Dark

I know that we had the force glyph, but telekinesis is a fairly basic ability derived from the mind. It's not an element that the vampires have a weakness to. Once you start adding in other glyphs, you lose/damame the connection to the curse aspect of the story. If lightning is included, it should be magic native to Nosgoth.

Vampmaster: With this last bit in mind, using lightning or static electricity as an energy source to redirect is feasible, because Nosgoth's energy is being harnessed. However, the source of the glyphs' powers is eldritch. The glyph power comes from within, channelled from the shrines. Even if it wasn't, underground maps, night maps and all of the maps involving eclipses would pose major problems.
I give up, there isn't going to be any lightning any where in this class; but, as I said, now we need to figure out a category 1 that resembles birdshot. I am looking at that style of shot as an answer to threats from sentinels. Sound is out as birdshot, becuase there is no way it could achieve the range, and I really like force where it is. Could we convert water to category 1? I would like to be in the form of a cluster of small, sharp ice shards if its a yes. The idea of using liquid would make it resemble something close to a water gun and that would feel aesthetically cheap.

Vampmaster
25th May 2014, 23:43
Some of this seems a bit too much for one class. I mean I don't have a problem with human using some sort of glyph magic if it's toned down a lot from what Raziel had, but I don't think the other classes have six different spells plus a selection of weapons as well. You would only equip one or two elements at a time, right?

I'm still not keen on adding more guns. Even if they're made to look like weapons from centuries ago would start to feel like a reskin of something from a modern shooter. I was hoping for something functionally different from modern weapons and not just an analog of them.

GenFeelGood
26th May 2014, 00:17
Some of this seems a bit too much for one class. I mean I don't have a problem with human using some sort of glyph magic if it's toned down a lot from what Raziel had, but I don't think the other classes have six different spells plus a selection of weapons as well. You would only equip one or two elements at a time, right?

That is the thing with shotguns, it may be one type of gun but it has a different type of ammo round for each occasion, it can be decent but not great in most areas of shooting and that is a balance we need to achieve so we don't take away from the other human classes. Each type of round has its own advantages and disadvantages over one another. What we are now proposing is that we have four of the glyphs (Stone, Sunlight, Fire and one we have to work out) with each one being an individual weapon for the loadout so you can't use more than one of them at a time, and each one blasting an attack equivalent to a type of shotgun ammo round (Slug, Birdshot, Buckshot, Blunderbuss). Blunderbuss isn't really a modern ammo type, but its distinct enough to not be overly similar to any of the others.


I'm still not keen on adding more guns. Even if they're made to look like weapons from centuries ago would start to feel like a reskin of something from a modern shooter. I was hoping for something functionally different from modern weapons and not just an analog of them.

We still want this to be a magic based attack, just using a shotgun mechanic. My partner in this wants it to be a hands free deal with no weapon or apparatus of any kind; while I want there to be at least something along the lines of gauntlets so we can allow a reasonable melee attack. We will come up with something in the middle soon enough, but definitely not another gun.

shinros
26th May 2014, 04:31
Well the one thing we do know is that the next human class after Prophet will be for those who cannot aim well.

GenFeelGood
26th May 2014, 04:44
Well the one thing we do know is that the next human class after Prophet will be for those who cannot aim well.

Makes sense when you consider the flood of new people coming in once this goes open beta. We always lose a good number of them when they get into the game because they aren't all that good at first and don't want to be the one dragging the team down. We have all been there and its a crappy place to be.

Edit: To help make sense of what I am saying when it comes to attaching a shotgun mechanic to the glyphs, here is the set up in the form of the loadout at the beginning of the round and after each time you die

CHOOSE ONE FOR EACH CATEGORY
Weapon ________________________ Q _______________________________________F
Sunlight(Blunderbuss)-------------------Force---------------------------------------------------Sound
Water(Birdshot)-------------------------Barrier--------------------------------------------------Sense
Stone(Buckshot)
Fire(Slug)

To help explain the difference between slug, buckshot, birdshot, and blunderbuss for those unfamiliar with shotguns here is a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQs2jcisMfA (1:16-8:30 and 25:06-29:35)

Ruevergne
27th May 2014, 22:53
What about pulling the shrapnel and dust into where you are standing and launching it in a single cluster from there? To be clear, I am with you now on this being a category 1 direct attack.

Either works pretty well, as long as the player can understand that the magic is eldritch and not related to Raziel's type. Your idea works better with dynamic of the attack type we're talking about though.


Fine, but this means one of the remaining 3 glyphs needs to be converted to category 1 so we can have four to choose from like the rest of the human classes. Without lightning, we can make fireball the slug round, stone the buckshot, sunlight is good where it is as blunderbuss, and so it need to be something that qualifies as birdshot.

Gotcha, not an easy task. Though I understand a lot better thanks to that video of the shot types... it was quite gross though and I found myself thinking, “I hope he's going to eat those and not waste them”.


I did say you were on to something, but it would be easier to hit the vampires as they get closer to you, not harder, and at greater damage to them as well; and the further away the vampire is the less damage will be done. So at one point, even if you are facing the blast, nothing will happen to you if you far enough back.

Easier to cause damage close up, but the beam would broaden, losing power but coving a wider range. Eventually, it would have no effect, like you said. A very smug vampire would get the lightest of tans. A broad beam would allow the player to use glare strategically too.


My concern is that there needs to be a limitation somewhere in this, otherwise you run the risk of taking away from the other human classes. If you allow something like a shotgun class to be able to shoot accurately over longer distances while still delivering heavy damage, then why bother with anything else.

As the fireball is the straightest attack, I think it should be medium range or short-range. Like you said , no sniping for this class. I also think it should be fairly weak and you should be able to fire off maybe three in succession (but not too fast), otherwise this class could end up slow on all attack fronts.


Sorry, my thought changes rather randomly.

Meh. Gave me something else to think about and my thoughts are pretty changeable too.


The humans have a single unchained base melee attack for when vampire are close and the ammo is out. Its basically clubbing them with their weapons. There needs to be reload of some kind so that the vampires have a chance to close the gap, and so there is more than one reason to go to the health stations ,that reloads your ammo cache while healing you, just like the rest of the human classes.

Okay, this class is weak physically. Their bodies have been damaged. So what about a kind of magical melee? What about a weak magical discharge on contact/striking?


I give up, there isn't going to be any lightning any where in this class; but, as I said, now we need to figure out a category 1 that resembles birdshot. I am looking at that style of shot as an answer to threats from sentinels. Sound is out as birdshot, becuase there is no way it could achieve the range, and I really like force where it is. Could we convert water to category 1? I would like to be in the form of a cluster of small, sharp ice shards if its a yes. The idea of using liquid would make it resemble something close to a water gun and that would feel aesthetically cheap.

Sorry, I feel guilty for being opposed to lightning. Basically, when I found this thread, the idea that I had was a class that used magic principles that related to those forces embodied by the pillars. Some humans do this in the series. Teleportation is a use of dimensional magic, for example. However, I realised that my idea effectively gave non-guardians more breadth of power with these principles than the guardians were supposed to possess and really encroached on Kain's abilities. In particular those that he'd be likely to obtain in future games.

I preferred water in category 2, but you're right; That is the best balance. It would look cool as a violent blast of water. The important bit is not to let it flop. The blast should be so violent that water
dissipates before it can be seen to fall. Hence the steam streaming away off of the vampires.


My partner in this

Heh. “Partner”. You and I are getting quite into this design. I really hope something manifests from it.


Makes sense when you consider the flood of new people coming in once this goes open beta. We always lose a good number of them when they get into the game because they aren't all that good at first and don't want to be the one dragging the team down. We have all been there and its a crappy place to be.

Someday, when I can afford a new computer, I will show you all how terrible I am at online gaming. It'll be great.


CHOOSE ONE FOR EACH CATEGORY
Weapon ________________________ Q _______________________________________F
Sunlight(Blunderbuss)-------------------Force---------------------------------------------------Sound
Water(Birdshot)-------------------------Barrier--------------------------------------------------Sense
Stone(Buckshot)
Fire(Slug)

That's it. You've nailed it. Okay. Quick change to group non-offence spells on the right... I know F and Q take theirs from the same list, but it helps to demonstrate the strategic value of the non-offensive spells:

Weapon ________________________ Q _______________________________________F
Sunlight(Blunderbuss)-------------------Force---------------------------------------------------Barrier
Water(Birdshot)-------------------------Sound---------------------------------------------------Sense
Stone(Buckshot)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Escape
Fire(Slug)

And escape in there.

GenFeelGood
28th May 2014, 03:49
Either works pretty well, as long as the player can understand that the magic is eldritch and not related to Raziel's type. Your idea works better with dynamic of the attack type we're talking about though.
Then we have stone sorted out


Gotcha, not an easy task. Though I understand a lot better thanks to that video of the shot types... it was quite gross though and I found myself thinking, “I hope he's going to eat those and not waste them”.
I doubt he did, didn't see the need to use turkeys but it still demonstrated the ammo variety I was talking about.


Easier to cause damage close up, but the beam would broaden, losing power but coving a wider range. Eventually, it would have no effect, like you said. A very smug vampire would get the lightest of tans. A broad beam would allow the player to use glare strategically too.
Exactly


As the fireball is the straightest attack, I think it should be medium range or short-range. Like you said , no sniping for this class. I also think it should be fairly weak and you should be able to fire off maybe three in succession (but not too fast), otherwise this class could end up slow on all attack fronts.
Slug should be capable of being effective beyond medium range, but not far enough to match the scouts full draw and with a small damage decrease once it passes medium range.


Okay, this class is weak physically. Their bodies have been damaged. So what about a kind of magical melee? What about a weak magical discharge on contact/striking?
Maybe,there definitely is potential. I know you want the hands to be bare, so no gauntlets, but what about a bladed arm guard like what the human Raziel used in Soul Reaver 2 to cut open Janos Audron's chest and keep the hands bare?


Sorry, I feel guilty for being opposed to lightning. Basically, when I found this thread, the idea that I had was a class that used magic principles that related to those forces embodied by the pillars. Some humans do this in the series. Teleportation is a use of dimensional magic, for example. However, I realised that my idea effectively gave non-guardians more breadth of power with these principles than the guardians were supposed to possess and really encroached on Kain's abilities. In particular those that he'd be likely to obtain in future games.
It is okay, I understand.


I preferred water in category 2, but you're right; That is the best balance. It would look cool as a violent blast of water. The important bit is not to let it flop. The blast should be so violent that water
dissipates before it can be seen to fall. Hence the steam streaming away off of the vampires.
Yes on this


Heh. “Partner”. You and I are getting quite into this design. I really hope something manifests from it.
Indeed we are and I also hope this ends being something down the line. Its got a lot going for it. Most of it is planned out and thought through. When I brought the thread back to begin this there was somewhere between 2500-3000 views, sorry can't remember exactly since it was around a month ago; but now its at 8,344 so people have been observing this back and forth between you and me. As often as the devs are on the forum, I have to think they have been watching as well, but even if they use tidbits of it I would call it a success.


Someday, when I can afford a new computer, I will show you all how terrible I am at online gaming. It'll be great.
I look forward to welcoming you into the fray.


That's it. You've nailed it. Okay. Quick change to group non-offence spells on the right... I know F and Q take theirs from the same list, but it helps to demonstrate the strategic value of the non-offensive spells:

Weapon ________________________ Q _______________________________________F
Sunlight(Blunderbuss)-------------------Force---------------------------------------------------Barrier
Water(Birdshot)-------------------------Sound---------------------------------------------------Sense
Stone(Buckshot)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Escape
Fire(Slug)

And escape in there.

That works, we just need to narrow down a few details with the lore and a couple of the abilities.

EDIT
While they are crippled to a degree from the side effects of the glyphs, I wouldn't call them physically weak. After all, in our lore, they crafted a tunnel network along with the human citadel. I agree that their build should be of a short (shorter than the hunter) ectomorph body type, but they should have some muscle tone after multiple generations of mining the underground.

When it comes to their motivations, and to make them a little more unique, what if they joined the fight not out of some strong sense duty or hunger for revenge, but for the challenge of the hunt. The classes all have phrases for during the game and most of the humans revolve around taking the world back and ridding it of its vermin and thevampires talk about it like its an evenings hunt, as if for fun. Lets give the disciples that same type of arrogance, too long underground away from the world with only their work and training to keep them busy in preparation for this day has breed a misplaced pride in what they can do, along with naive notions in what the vampires are capable of.

Quote Examples
"Immortals, we'll see if you wanna live forever after we're done with you."
"You are creatures of the night no more, even the shadows is our dominion now."
"Your severed heads will show the rest of you that even vampires can be afraid."

"what about a bladed arm guard like what the human Raziel used in Soul Reaver 2 to cut open Janos Audron's chest and keep the hands bare?"
Nevermind, just played the prophet and now noticed that she already uses it.

Ruevergne
29th May 2014, 23:37
Maybe,there definitely is potential. I know you want the hands to be bare, so no gauntlets, but what about a bladed arm guard like what the human Raziel used in Soul Reaver 2 to cut open Janos Audron's chest and keep the hands bare?

That's a good idea. It's actually what the Sarafan sorcerers used in Defiance as well.


That works, we just need to narrow down a few details with the lore and a couple of the abilities.

Mmm... I'll write up a new set of descriptions based on what you put down. I'll put it in an edit... need... sleep... wondering why I wrote so much after? I didn't, this is the last comment.


EDIT
While they are crippled to a degree from the side effects of the glyphs, I wouldn't call them physically weak. After all, in our lore, they crafted a tunnel network along with the human citadel. I agree that their build should be of a short (shorter than the hunter) ectomorph body type, but they should have some muscle tone after multiple generations of mining the underground.

This is a tricky one. I agree that they should craft tunnels, but not a complete network. The spacing of the shrines in SR is a considerable distance before you take into account that the world map was compressed to make it possible to run between locations. Defiance implied that the distances were considerably great than portrayed in the other games. This is, after all, a world. The tunnels would be more for the sake of hiding their work and providing escape and shelter. With regards to the citadel, it is implied here that it is the work of the civilisation connected to the ironguard – the hunters. So it has already been laid claim to.

The thing to keep in mind is that this class, like most of the others, is not self-sufficient. There are many other things to attend. All soldiers in wars are supplied by the work of others. In wartime Britain, those in farming and industry were given special dispensation not to be recruited as troops, because their work was necessary. It is the same with most of the other classes in Nosgoth. What I would suggest is that most of the labour, food supply etc (the things that make a civilisation live) were done by others. Our class should be those select few skilled enough to actually harvest the fruits of their collective labours. They need not be muscled... they may scholarly... I don't know. Weakness suits it a little better for me, but it could be either. I've met some pretty strong skinny, and even unhealthy, people.


When it comes to their motivations, and to make them a little more unique, what if they joined the fight not out of some strong sense duty or hunger for revenge, but for the challenge of the hunt. The classes all have phrases for during the game and most of the humans revolve around taking the world back and ridding it of its vermin and thevampires talk about it like its an evenings hunt, as if for fun. Lets give the disciples that same type of arrogance, too long underground away from the world with only their work and training to keep them busy in preparation for this day has breed a misplaced pride in what they can do, along with naive notions in what the vampires are capable of.

I think the hunting ground is pretty much taken up with the hunters and scouts. Plus, this would mean completely rewriting any story aspects we agree on... far from tweaking. You didn't tell me what you thought of the spiritually obsessive aspect of the story that I wrote.


It was during this second diaspora that the spirits first came to the migrants’ aid. They spoke through the bodies of the possessed; the green blaze of their souls lit the eyes of their host. They spoke of imprisonment by the vampires and freedom upon their deaths; they spoke familial tales that eased the hearts of those bereaved of loved ones; and as time went by the migrants began to comprehend the teachings of the spirits – the blood was merely a prerequisite for trapping the souls of their victims within the vampires flesh – futile substitutes for the absence of their own souls.

The lessons imparted by the imprisoned souls were confined and brief, but fuelled by spiritual zeal the migrants managed to use this knowledge to harvest from the teachings of the texts. They constructed shrines to draw eldritch magic into the world and the elemental glyphs were born. These glyphs imbued their users with powers that, but for their teachings, would have been beyond their comprehension. Intoxicated by power and righteousness, they ignored the side effects each glyph wrought upon their bodies.

With each new glyph their bodies became blighted and grew numb, but the fires within their hearts ripened and the order of the acolytes began to enact justice upon the vampires; surreptitious and measured, but steady. The acolytes now lost much of their ability to empathize with the living; they lived for the dead.

Knowing they were outnumbered, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels facilitating travel to the glyph shrines. To refill their ranks they clung to the edges of Nosgoth’s remaining human civilisations, enticing others with the promises of safety and retribution.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, the acolytes joined humanity in the war against the vampires. Endowed with a sense of righteous piety, generations of hatred and rage broke forth and the acolytes unleashed the full force of their fury on the battlefield.


Quote Examples
"Immortals, we'll see if you wanna live forever after we're done with you."
"You are creatures of the night no more, even the shadows is our dominion now."
"Your severed heads will show the rest of you that even vampires can be afraid."

Wanna? Want to is more fitting considering the series. I didn't know we were going to do phrases. I'd like to reorganise your second one a little, because I quite like it.

“You will be creatures of the shadows no more, even the night will be our domain.”

The plurality use in the grammar was a bit difficult the other way (sorry; was an English teacher... briefly). Okay, if we're doing these, I propose (based on my idea, which I put up for debate) phrases based on their spiritual beliefs/delusions:

“I will liberate their souls!”
“Their bodies are mere husks; prisons for the souls of our kin.”
“They do not belong; even the very elements reject them.”


"what about a bladed arm guard like what the human Raziel used in Soul Reaver 2 to cut open Janos Audron's chest and keep the hands bare?"
Nevermind, just played the prophet and now noticed that she already uses it.

Nuts... well... the same good ideas happen to different people and at least it has turned up.

GenFeelGood
30th May 2014, 01:05
This is a tricky one. I agree that they should craft tunnels, but not a complete network. The spacing of the shrines in SR is a considerable distance before you take into account that the world map was compressed to make it possible to run between locations. Defiance implied that the distances were considerably great than portrayed in the other games. This is, after all, a world. The tunnels would be more for the sake of hiding their work and providing escape and shelter. With regards to the citadel, it is implied here that it is the work of the civilisation connected to the ironguard – the hunters. So it has already been laid claim to.

The thing to keep in mind is that this class, like most of the others, is not self-sufficient. There are many other things to attend. All soldiers in wars are supplied by the work of others. In wartime Britain, those in farming and industry were given special dispensation not to be recruited as troops, because their work was necessary. It is the same with most of the other classes in Nosgoth. What I would suggest is that most of the labour, food supply etc (the things that make a civilisation live) were done by others. Our class should be those select few skilled enough to actually harvest the fruits of their collective labours. They need not be muscled... they may scholarly... I don't know. Weakness suits it a little better for me, but it could be either. I've met some pretty strong skinny, and even unhealthy, people.

Okay, credit for the human citadel isn't all that important to me. I am also okay with others doing the tunnels but there does need to be a network of tunnels since there were so many underground passages linking up areas of Nogoth in Soul Reaver. This network of tunnels will eventually get flooded, possibly by Rahab's bunch after the humans are defeated so that the Rahabim(after no longer being able to move on the surface) can still travel across the span of Nosgoth safely.

I am not saying they be muscle bound but certainly cut in the sense they are lacking a lot of body fat along with a lack of muscle, skin and bones.It is important to me that they be slow since they are the shotgun class (otherwise they could potentially blitzkrieg the whole match) and physically less capable than the other humans classes, to avoid him being a tank as well.


I think the hunting ground is pretty much taken up with the hunters and scouts. Plus, this would mean completely rewriting any story aspects we agree on... far from tweaking. You didn't tell me what you thought of the spiritually obsessive aspect of the story that I wrote.

Wanna? Want to is more fitting considering the series. I didn't know we were going to do phrases. I'd like to reorganise your second one a little, because I quite like it.

“You will be creatures of the shadows no more, even the night will be our domain.”

The plurality use in the grammar was a bit difficult the other way (sorry; was an English teacher... briefly). Okay, if we're doing these, I propose (based on my idea, which I put up for debate) phrases based on their spiritual beliefs/delusions:

“I will liberate their souls!”
“Their bodies are mere husks; prisons for the souls of our kin.”
“They do not belong; even the very elements reject them.”


No problem, my grammar is not the best. I like the direction, makes them feel like they are bringing the wrath of the inquisition upon the vampires, but the quotes (and I see where they fit what you wrote in the lore) make them sound less like disciples of the unnamed (hylden) and more like followers of the Elder God. They remind me of Janos' talk with Raziel in Defiance. Except the last one, that one works just fine (Slight edit on that, "They are unnatural; even the elements reject them.").

What about this?
"Purgatory is over demons; only hell awaits you now."
"Once it is over the dead will forever stay dead."

DemonSqaure
31st May 2014, 10:54
A healing class like a Cleric would be nice instead of searching for suppliments.

Robert922
31st May 2014, 11:33
i hope they release more classes :D

GenFeelGood
1st Jun 2014, 02:11
Okay Ruevergne,

I have been going crazy trying to find a conceivable melee for our human since you are really set on them going in with bare hands, no weapon or gear, and I think I might have something that could do the trick as well as distinguish the different glyphs equipped when not being fired.

Tattoo patterns, specifically tribal tattoos, that cover the hands along with the wrists and resonates the eldtritch energy attuned to that glyph in a corresponding color. This will serve as a type of brass knuckle effect which will make a simple, bare knuckle punch not so completely ridiculous as the melee.
Colors
Water: Blue
Fire: Red
Stone: Grey
Sunlight: Yellow
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bQ0SqifjNcg/TH6mPHEZRJI/AAAAAAAAcBQ/ywwZmPFLL6I/s1600/hand-tribal-tattoo.JPGhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bQ0SqifjNcg/TH6mP13zbqI/AAAAAAAAcBg/MlbC1cIlF_4/s1600/hand-tribal-tattoo-3.jpg

As an added touch for if we are still including hylden texts in the lore, on the forearm and possibly bicep for a full sleeve we have written scripture either from the hylden texts or from their own personal gospel. It wouldn't matter which since it would likely be written in a language none of us could translate.

Edit
Questions to answers
-Do we want it to be a man or a woman?
-Do we want it be young or old?
-Are we good with the name Disciples or, given that we are now likely to make them religious zealots, would Occultists work better?
(My preferences is that it be an old man and for the name we could do both, call them Occultists from the Disciple of the Unnamed, like Hunter are of the Ironguard, Scouts are of the Watchers, etc.)
-What are we thinking in terms of wardrobe, since there are magic it should be something more ceremonial, proper yet functional?
EXAMPLES
Mobius
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120529104737/legacyofkain/images/c/c5/Defiance-Fankit-Character-Moebius.jpg
Vorador
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120528191317/legacyofkain/images/7/7c/Defiance-BonusMaterial-CharacterArt-Renders-14-Vorador.png

Ruevergne
2nd Jun 2014, 23:38
Mega-Post!


Okay, credit for the human citadel isn't all that important to me. I am also okay with others doing the tunnels but there does need to be a network of tunnels since there were so many underground passages linking up areas of Nogoth in Soul Reaver. This network of tunnels will eventually get flooded, possibly by Rahab's bunch after the humans are defeated so that the Rahabim(after no longer being able to move on the surface) can still travel across the span of Nosgoth safely.

It's not really others doing the tunnels. It would just be largely the non-fighting members of their organisation. I'm not saying the tunnels wouldn't link areas, but some of those tunnels were definitely made by others. The way I see it is that they constructed smaller tunnel networks, but more than one network. This class, by its nature, avoids putting all of its eggs in one basket. The spacing of the shrines would support this. A single network would be dangerous if infiltrated, but multiple networks in different areas allow them to hide themselves and their work. Likewise, the shrines could be conquered (like the sunlight glyph shrine), but there would be other options left to them.


I am not saying they be muscle bound but certainly cut in the sense they are lacking a lot of body fat along with a lack of muscle, skin and bones.It is important to me that they be slow since they are the shotgun class (otherwise they could potentially blitzkrieg the whole match) and physically less capable than the other humans classes, to avoid him being a tank as well.

Low body fat; not decrepit, but not fully healthy; a certain leanness. They can't be emaciated if they are going to have tattoos. They'd look... untidy. I've wondered about class speeds. Since humans need to stick together, don't they need to travel at roughly the same speed?


No problem, my grammar is not the best. I like the direction, makes them feel like they are bringing the wrath of the inquisition upon the vampires, but the quotes (and I see where they fit what you wrote in the lore) make them sound less like disciples of the unnamed (hylden) and more like followers of the Elder God. They remind me of Janos' talk with Raziel in Defiance. Except the last one, that one works just fine (Slight edit on that, "They are unnatural; even the elements reject them.").

Yes, I see your point. What I'm looking for is an expression of their belief that multiple souls are freed from a single corpse; the souls of its victims.

Good edit. I can see a nice stress in there... italics for stress; hyphen for pause:
“They are un-natural; even the elements reject them.”



"Purgatory is over demons; only hell awaits you now."
Slight

Ah, the chance in is this one.
“Purgatory is over. Hell for the demon; rest for the souls imprisoned.”


"Once it is over the dead will forever stay dead."

“Once it is over, the dead will forever stay dead.” Definitely a nice stress on “stay” :)


Okay Ruevergne,

I have been going crazy trying to find a conceivable melee for our human since you are really set on them going in with bare hands, no weapon or gear, and I think I might have something that could do the trick as well as distinguish the different glyphs equipped when not being fired.

Tattoo patterns, specifically tribal tattoos, that cover the hands along with the wrists and resonates the eldtritch energy attuned to that glyph in a corresponding color. This will serve as a type of brass knuckle effect which will make a simple, bare knuckle punch not so completely ridiculous as the melee.

Don't go crazy. I'm told it's not much fun.

I did actually come up with an idea for a kind of stiletto dagger that rests behind the hand between the annular and middle knuckle, but your idea is cooler. Plus, the dagger thing probably works better for assassins.


Colors
Water: Blue
Fire: Red
Stone: Grey
Sunlight: Yellow
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bQ0SqifjNcg/TH6mPHEZRJI/AAAAAAAAcBQ/ywwZmPFLL6I/s1600/hand-tribal-tattoo.JPGhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bQ0SqifjNcg/TH6mP13zbqI/AAAAAAAAcBg/MlbC1cIlF_4/s1600/hand-tribal-tattoo-3.jpg

You are on to something there, but yellow tattoos won't work. What about if the tattoos are black, but leak magic through the forearms? When charged: fire tattoos would have small flames; stone would trail dust; sunlight would glow; and water would shimmer.

During 'reload', the flames/dust/glow/shimmer would be absent – just black tattoos. During discharge, the magic would flow from the forearms into the hands.


As an added touch for if we are still including hylden texts in the lore, on the forearm and possibly bicep for a full sleeve we have written scripture either from the hylden texts or from their own personal gospel. It wouldn't matter which since it would likely be written in a language none of us could translate.

Could do. I was thinking that the tattoos should extend all the way to the shoulders and back (though to back would not be visible.


-Do we want it to be a man or a woman?
Both genders would be preferable, but either would look cool. In terms of balance, the developers might prefer to include more women, as it's currently a little unbalanced.


-Do we want it be young or old?
Middle aged. Old enough to understand the magic well, but young enough not to be further physically impaired.


-Are we good with the name Disciples or, given that we are now likely to make them religious zealots, would Occultists work better?
Hmmm... Zealots works okay... can't think of anything better with that meaning. Exorcists doesn't work, because they think they're removing human souls from a demon. So, yes, Occultists is probably the best term. Fits them magically and spiritually.


(My preferences is that it be an old man and for the name we could do both, call them Occultists from the Disciple of the Unnamed, like Hunter are of the Ironguard, Scouts are of the Watchers, etc.)

I think an old man would look cool, but age is a definite problem when you're up against vampires that are this fast and strong. Remember with the name that they believe the hylden to be the spirits of their dead trapped with the bodies of the vampires. As such, they don't worship or follow, but merely take guidance. They are not really disciples in this regard. We need something that describes their way of life. They never integrated back into other societies, but they always stay nearby. You can see this with the locations of the shrines: force – near charnel house; sound – beneath cathedral; fire – near the abbey; water – hidden within the citadel; earth – near Nupraptor's former keep; sunlight – hidden near the cathedral by tunnel access. These are all on the periphery of human locations and they would need to travel between them. They are not truly nomads, they are itinerants.


-What are we thinking in terms of wardrobe, since there are magic it should be something more ceremonial, proper yet functional?
Absolutely, but more practical again than those of Moebius or Vorador. Let's take out the tails. I was thinking something like a judo kimono, but with no sleeves and trousers more suited to running. Maybe bound at the bottom like this:

http://www.templeofshaolin.com/files/2012/02/shaolin-monks-training.jpg

The 'kimono' could be held together firmly with rope or a belt. I think it should be sleeveless to the point that we can see the tattoos running up the arms and on to the backs of the shoulders. Some leather armour probably ought to be included, but beneath the 'kimono'. Thigh and shin guards and I think boots. Secondary spell types could have their symbol or glyph tattooed on to the backs of the shoulders. The clothing could be made decorative, but nothing that dangles too much. Pretty fatal, things that dangle in combat. I'm thinking long, unruly hair, tied back, but this is just a style preference... they could have bald option or whatever takes a player's fancy.

I'd draw some sketches, but I've no scanner anyway... never mind.

Right. Time for a rewrite of the story and a recap of what we've decided on the spells. I've changed the location to the ruins of the Sarafan stronghold as requested.

Story

The destruction of Avernus; the fall of the circle; the collapse of the pillars; plague; conflict… these dark times created refugees in their tens of thousands. Generations past and many of their descendants had become nomads. Some founded settlements hidden within Nosgoth’s great central forests and the nomadic way of life dwindled. Time went past and the upheaval began once more; Kain, his lieutenants and their brood came from the west tearing their way through the settlements and the refugees scattered and fled.

Some fled south to the Great Southern Lake and the ruins of the Sarafan fortress where he descendants of Moebius's army granted them shelter. Assailed generation after generation by ever more lethal foes, this army had diminished and abandoned the suicide of brute force. Magical knowledge had preserved them and so they preserved it above all else.

Within the fortress the descendants of the mercenaries had discovered secret chambers revealed as it decayed. Little remained, but, hidden away by Mortanius and Moebius, from early days of the first human Circle of Nine, texts belonging to an ancient civilisation spoke of otherworldly power and when they were revealed to the migrants, the flames of revenge ignited within their hearts.

It was during this second diaspora that the spirits first came to the migrants’ aid. They spoke through the bodies of the possessed; the green blaze of their souls lit the eyes of their host. They spoke of imprisonment by the vampires and freedom upon their deaths; they spoke familial tales that eased the hearts of those bereaved of loved ones; and as time went by the migrants began to comprehend the teachings of the spirits – the blood of a vampire's victims was merely a prerequisite for trapping the souls of their victims within the vampire's flesh – futile substitutes for the absence of a soul to call their own.

The lessons imparted by the imprisoned souls were confined and brief, but fuelled by spiritual zeal the migrants managed to use this knowledge to harvest from the teachings of the texts. They constructed shrines to draw eldritch magic into the world and the elemental glyphs were born. These glyphs imbued their users with powers that, but for their teachings, would have been beyond their comprehension. Intoxicated by power and righteousness, they ignored the side effects each glyph wrought upon their bodies.

With each new glyph their bodies became blighted and grew numb, but the fires within their hearts ripened and the order of the occultists began to enact justice upon the vampires; surreptitious and measured, but steady. The occultists now lost much of their ability to empathize with the living; they lived for the dead.

Knowing they were outnumbered, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth and through its mountains and hills, they got to work crafting tunnels, facilitating travel to the glyph shrines. They clung to the edges of Nosgoth’s remaining human civilisations and, when needed, enticed strays and outcasts with the promises of safety and retribution to refill their ranks.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, the occultists joined humanity in the war against the vampires. Endowed with a sense of righteous piety, generations of hatred and rage broke forth and the acolytes unleashed the full force of their fury on the battlefield.

Spells

Weapon (Shot Analogy)____________Q____________F
Sunlight (Blunderbuss)____________Force_________Barrier
Water (Birdshot)________________Sound_________Sense
Stone (Buckshot)________________Shield_________Escape
Fire (Slug)

Primary Attacks

Sunlight: (medium damage, medium/high area of effect, short range, one shot?)
A broad pulse of light that burns and hinders vision while in the beam.

Water: (medium damage, high area of effect, short range, one shot?)
A blast of water so violent that the droplets dissipate into vapour before they can be seen to fall. Burns flesh so intensely that the heat turns it into steam. Leaves vampire with temporary susceptibility to taking other damage.

Fire: (low damage, low area of effect, medium to long range, three shots?)
Fireballs thrown from the hands that explode on contact. Accurate, but slower than arrows and they dissipate.

Stone: (medium damage, low area of effect, long range, two shots?)
Launches chunks of stone that, upon penetration, petrify flesh around wounds. Is the stone gathered from the ground by hand? This would give a nice two shots, double barrel effect.

Secondary Spells

Sound - Vampires in close proximity temporarily have basic physical abilities such as running and jumping reduced and become disorientated/dizzy. Does no damage to health.
Force – Vampires in close proximity are knocked down, but not away. Does virtually no damage.
Shield – Primary element returns some damage to attacker. (NEW IDEA)

Lay Barrier – a vertical, temporary and stationary barrier can be cast in front user – can separate vampires, slow them down or prevent them from taking certain routes. This could be used for divide and conquer or escape or trapping. Humans pass through unhindered.
Escape – teleports user limited distance away from assailants, but makes user unable to use other skills/attacks for period after.
Sense – a ring around the user warns of the direction of approaching vampires.

GenFeelGood
3rd Jun 2014, 01:41
It's not really others doing the tunnels. It would just be largely the non-fighting members of their organisation. I'm not saying the tunnels wouldn't link areas, but some of those tunnels were definitely made by others. The way I see it is that they constructed smaller tunnel networks, but more than one network. This class, by its nature, avoids putting all of its eggs in one basket. The spacing of the shrines would support this. A single network would be dangerous if infiltrated, but multiple networks in different areas allow them to hide themselves and their work. Likewise, the shrines could be conquered (like the sunlight glyph shrine), but there would be other options left to them.

I see what you mean, and I like this better. Suggests there is a group structure and hierarchy within the group itself, showing how developed they are as an organization.



Low body fat; not decrepit, but not fully healthy; a certain leanness. They can't be emaciated if they are going to have tattoos. They'd look... untidy. I've wondered about class speeds. Since humans need to stick together, don't they need to travel at roughly the same speed?

Yes, their speeds are roughly the same, but there is a speed perk option that is designed to give players that use it the capability to outrun and in some cases chase down a fleeing vampire. Making them a little slower than the others would help counter what this perk would provide along with what our guy can do.


You are on to something there, but yellow tattoos won't work. What about if the tattoos are black, but leak magic through the forearms? When charged: fire tattoos would have small flames; stone would trail dust; sunlight would glow; and water would shimmer.

During 'reload', the flames/dust/glow/shimmer would be absent – just black tattoos. During discharge, the magic would flow from the forearms into the hands.

How about we keep the hand tattoos resonating the colors to simulate the brass knuckle effect with sunlight being white instead of yellow; but, for the forearms, what if it could be deep narrow tissue cuts with blackened skin outlining them and with the corresponding element emerging from within the cuts for a 3D effect? The scripture tattoos could be reserved for the torso as a selling point for the shirtless skin variation.
http://www.tattoosonbody.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Tribal-Forearm-Tattoos-for-Men.jpg
Careful when mentioning anything describing a shimmer, real anti-Twilight crowd in here. The elements may need to be motionless, otherwise the overall design might be a bit too busy. So how about this
Stone: Jagged Rocks
Water: Ice Shards
Light: Clear Crystals
Fire: Obsidian Volcanic Glass


Could do. I was thinking that the tattoos should extend all the way to the shoulders and back (though to back would not be visible.
We could do something like this for one of the skin variations so long as he goes into the fight without a shirt.


Both genders would be preferable, but either would look cool. In terms of balance, the developers might prefer to include more women, as it's currently a little unbalanced.

Middle aged. Old enough to understand the magic well, but young enough not to be further physically impaired.




Hmmm... Zealots works okay... can't think of anything better with that meaning. Exorcists doesn't work, because they think they're removing human souls from a demon. So, yes, Occultists is probably the best term. Fits them magically and spiritually.

"Occultists" from the Disciples of the Unnamed


I think an old man would look cool, but age is a definite problem when you're up against vampires that are this fast and strong. Remember with the name that they believe the hylden to be the spirits of their dead trapped with the bodies of the vampires. As such, they don't worship or follow, but merely take guidance. They are not really disciples in this regard. We need something that describes their way of life. They never integrated back into other societies, but they always stay nearby. You can see this with the locations of the shrines: force – near charnel house; sound – beneath cathedral; fire – near the abbey; water – hidden within the citadel; earth – near Nupraptor's former keep; sunlight – hidden near the cathedral by tunnel access. These are all on the periphery of human locations and they would need to travel between them. They are not truly nomads, they are itinerants.

At the moment the humans are balanced with 2 male and 2 female classes, so it would be good either way when it comes to balance.

The precedent for elders in battles has recently been established with the introduction of the Prophet, who the devs refer to as an old twisted hag. I was thinking (since we are establishing there was a hierarchy within the group) that the ones going into the fight are the ones near the end of their days (going down fighting in the place of their understudies); but we could do middle aged as well, kind of a required tour of duty before ascending further in the hierarchy. Both scenarios would be fine by me.



Absolutely, but more practical again than those of Moebius or Vorador. Let's take out the tails. I was thinking something like a judo kimono, but with no sleeves and trousers more suited to running.

The 'kimono' could be held together firmly with rope or a belt. I think it should be sleeveless to the point that we can see the tattoos running up the arms and on to the backs of the shoulders. Some leather armour probably ought to be included, but beneath the 'kimono'. Thigh and shin guards and I think boots. Secondary spell types could have their symbol or glyph tattooed on to the backs of the shoulders. The clothing could be made decorative, but nothing that dangles too much. Pretty fatal, things that dangle in combat. I'm thinking long, unruly hair, tied back, but this is just a style preference... they could have bald option or whatever takes a player's fancy.

I'd draw some sketches, but I've no scanner anyway... never mind.

It works for me and the various skins could more than satisfy player preference, I forgot to point out that all of the human classes, along with their different skins, obscure the face in some manner. I am working on getting a scanner, but that will take sometime.



Right. Time for a rewrite of the story and a recap of what we've decided on the spells. I've changed the location to the ruins of the Sarafan stronghold as requested.

Story

The destruction of Avernus; the fall of the circle; the collapse of the pillars; plague; conflict… these dark times created refugees in their tens of thousands. Generations past and many of their descendants had become nomads. Some founded settlements hidden within Nosgoth’s great central forests and the nomadic way of life dwindled. Time went past and the upheaval began once more; Kain, his lieutenants and their brood came from the west tearing their way through the settlements and the refugees scattered and fled.

Some fled south to the Great Southern Lake and the ruins of the Sarafan fortress where he descendants of Moebius's army granted them shelter. Assailed generation after generation by ever more lethal foes, this army had diminished and abandoned the suicide of brute force. Magical knowledge had preserved them and so they preserved it above all else.

Within the fortress the descendants of the mercenaries had discovered secret chambers revealed as it decayed. Little remained, but, hidden away by Mortanius and Moebius, from early days of the first human Circle of Nine, texts belonging to an ancient civilisation spoke of otherworldly power and when they were revealed to the migrants, the flames of revenge ignited within their hearts.

It was during this second diaspora that the spirits first came to the migrants’ aid. They spoke through the bodies of the possessed; the green blaze of their souls lit the eyes of their host. They spoke of imprisonment by the vampires and freedom upon their deaths; they spoke familial tales that eased the hearts of those bereaved of loved ones; and as time went by the migrants began to comprehend the teachings of the spirits – the blood of a vampire's victims was merely a prerequisite for trapping the souls of their victims within the vampire's flesh – futile substitutes for the absence of a soul to call their own.

The lessons imparted by the imprisoned souls were confined and brief, but fuelled by spiritual zeal the migrants managed to use this knowledge to harvest from the teachings of the texts. They constructed shrines to draw eldritch magic into the world and the elemental glyphs were born. These glyphs imbued their users with powers that, but for their teachings, would have been beyond their comprehension. Intoxicated by power and righteousness, they ignored the side effects each glyph wrought upon their bodies.

With each new glyph their bodies became blighted and grew numb, but the fires within their hearts ripened and the order of the occultists began to enact justice upon the vampires; surreptitious and measured, but steady. The occultists now lost much of their ability to empathize with the living; they lived for the dead.

Knowing they were outnumbered, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth and through its mountains and hills, they got to work crafting tunnels, facilitating travel to the glyph shrines. They clung to the edges of Nosgoth’s remaining human civilisations and, when needed, enticed strays and outcasts with the promises of safety and retribution to refill their ranks.

With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, the occultists joined humanity in the war against the vampires. Endowed with a sense of righteous piety, generations of hatred and rage broke forth and the acolytes unleashed the full force of their fury on the battlefield.

Spells

Weapon (Shot Analogy)____________Q____________F
Sunlight (Blunderbuss)____________Force_________Barrier
Water (Birdshot)________________Sound_________Sense
Stone (Buckshot)________________Shield_________Escape
Fire (Slug)

Primary Attacks

Sunlight: (medium damage, medium/high area of effect, short range, one shot?)
A broad pulse of light that burns and hinders vision while in the beam.

Water: (medium damage, high area of effect, short range, one shot?)
A blast of water so violent that the droplets dissipate into vapour before they can be seen to fall. Burns flesh so intensely that the heat turns it into steam. Leaves vampire with temporary susceptibility to taking other damage.

Fire: (low damage, low area of effect, medium to long range, three shots?)
Fireballs thrown from the hands that explode on contact. Accurate, but slower than arrows and they dissipate.

Stone: (medium damage, low area of effect, long range, two shots?)
Launches chunks of stone that, upon penetration, petrify flesh around wounds. Is the stone gathered from the ground by hand? This would give a nice two shots, double barrel effect.

Secondary Spells

Sound - Vampires in close proximity temporarily have basic physical abilities such as running and jumping reduced and become disorientated/dizzy. Does no damage to health.
Force – Vampires in close proximity are knocked down, but not away. Does virtually no damage.
Shield – Primary element returns some damage to attacker. (NEW IDEA)

Lay Barrier – a vertical, temporary and stationary barrier can be cast in front user – can separate vampires, slow them down or prevent them from taking certain routes. This could be used for divide and conquer or escape or trapping. Humans pass through unhindered.
Escape – teleports user limited distance away from assailants, but makes user unable to use other skills/attacks for period after.
Sense – a ring around the user warns of the direction of approaching vampires.


I love what you did with the story.

Only thing I would change on the Primary is
Sunlight-(high damage, high area of effect beyond center, short range)4 rounds per charge/low fire rate
Water-(medium damage, medium area of effect beyond center, medium range)6 rounds per charge/fast fire rate
Stone-(medium damage, low area of effect beyond center, long range/damage)6 rounds per charge/medium fire rate
*With a damage drop past medium range
Fire-(high damage, no area of effect beyond center, long range)5 rounds per charge/medium fire rate
*With a damage drop past medium range

Can't really do double barrel blast for one type without doing it for all of them and double barrel stone might render the spread advantage you get with water redundant.

For Sound, what about no damage and no reduction to their abilities; but creating a triple vision effect with all moving characters going in 3 separate directions from where they were.
http://i39.tinypic.com/1zfiy38.jpg

Force should do a little damage, collision and fall damage at least.

Escape is perfect and ideal for helping compensate for slow movements, if you are willing to go without what the other spells provide. I love it.

I don't know about shield, maybe with a short cooldown (around 5-8 seconds) with a shorter run time (3-5 seconds at most) but even then that might be a bit op. It would be Ideal for defending teammates at the healing station. What kind of defense would it provide? Instead of it dealing damage back could it knock attack vampires back with a stumble, unless its a turelim charge?

The more I think on Lay Barrier the more it feels like something that promotes camping in the game and that makes me a little nervous. It will need a short duration with a long cooldown and it can't stop a vampire but maybe slow them down as they pass through while dealing a slight degree of damage, if any at at all. It can't be able to stop things like sentinel explosive bombs or dumahim smoke bombs from passing through, but maybe reduce the damage from blast if the blast radius needs to pass through the barrier to reach the player. Even with all this I feel we need to choose between Lay Barrier and Shield, they both seem really similar but different types of defense wall spells and we only need 1 of them. I don't see both of them making it together.

EDIT
The max damage output for each type should be around 1100-1200. Most human classes are between 1200-1400 max; but it should be less since it is spread shot and the likely hood of missing is less than the other human classes at various ranges. So how about this for a start?
Sunlight-275 (single blast)/4 rounds/ max damage: 1100/ past medium range:0 damage
Water-160 (20 shot at 8 damage each)/7 rounds/ max damage: 1120/ past medium range:0-50 damage
Stone-200 (8 shot at 25 damage each)/6 rounds/ max damage: 1200/ past medium range:0-100 damage
Fire-240 (single shot)/5 rounds/ max damage: 1200/ past medium range: 150 damage

EDIT
How about this for lay barrier? Instead of raising a single solid barrier that physically hinders vampires movements, it raises a pair of barrier that are bent towards each other at the ends like a circle but don't connect. These barriers function like as an illusion, each barrier reflects what is on the other barrier's side like a warped mirror, making the space between the barriers an area of invisibility from certain angles and the barriers being two way from the inside.

http://twistedsifter.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/woman-holding-mirror-on-grass-reflection.jpg

I know it might not be easy to understand but perhaps Q can explain it better.
(2:48-3:34)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uZRYO8BcL4

Unlike the current camouflage this one is fixed and does not offer the player mobility, but it can be raised anywhere beyond where the player is standing, (even around other players). It would offer no physical protection and once anyone shoots through it or any vampire passes through it the barrier dissolves. It could serve as an escape/evasion ability for yourself and your team or, if you are clever, an excellent trap.
-For example, a scout lays his Bouncing Betty Mine and you raise the barrier around it. You or someone stands at one end of the barrier as a vampire walks in from the other side, the vampire sees you plain as day and is unaware of the barrier gap between you, and runs towards you. The vampire then unknowingly passes through the barrier, dissolving it, and lands point blank on top of the mine with no time for escape.

Ruevergne
8th Jun 2014, 00:05
I see what you mean, and I like this better. Suggests there is a group structure and hierarchy within the group itself, showing how developed they are as an organization.

Exactly, they function in units if you like, maintaining their power by safeguarding it.


Yes, their speeds are roughly the same, but there is a speed perk option that is designed to give players that use it the capability to outrun and in some cases chase down a fleeing vampire. Making them a little slower than the others would help counter what this perk would provide along with what our guy can do.

I see what you mean. I guess the balance would have to be tested in gameplay.


How about we keep the hand tattoos resonating the colors to simulate the brass knuckle effect with sunlight being white instead of yellow; but, for the forearms, what if it could be deep narrow tissue cuts with blackened skin outlining them and with the corresponding element emerging from within the cuts for a 3D effect? The scripture tattoos could be reserved for the torso as a selling point for the shirtless skin variation.
http://www.tattoosonbody.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Tribal-Forearm-Tattoos-for-Men.jpg
Careful when mentioning anything describing a shimmer, real anti-Twilight crowd in here. The elements may need to be motionless, otherwise the overall design might be a bit too busy. So how about this
Stone: Jagged Rocks
Water: Ice Shards
Light: Clear Crystals
Fire: Obsidian Volcanic Glass

We could do something like this for one of the skin variations so long as he goes into the fight without a shirt.

I think I might have misunderstood. I thought you meant that tattoos and magical symbols would be the humans' tools for managing this magic within their bodies. Is this right?

With the shimmer, I meant that effect that you get light reflects of ripples. Water doesn't have much of a colour, but it does bend light. The effects that I mentioned need not be that busy. The magic would only leak a little. Fire might be a lightly glowing ripple, like on a burnt out log; sunlight a gentle glow; stone could be a granite pattern. Take a look at the banner the top of the home page: www.nosgoth.com - some of these effects can be made very subtle. I'd still like some delicate flames, but it would depend on how it looks I suppose.

The wounds would look interesting, but too many would suggest damage and frailty that don't fit the class's melee backup. Remember that Nosgoth's water element is the one connected to the principle of states, which is the origin of the ice magic. This element shouldn't have the same association. The shirtless one might also look cool, but do you have a backup for the lack of armour?


"Occultists" from the Disciples of the Unnamed

What I meant before is that a disciple is a follower. They don't follow the spirits, but just take guidance from them. In the story they believe that these spirits are actually their own people trapped in a kind of purgatory, so they're not unnamed. They don't worship or follow, because they believe themselves to be working with their own; they are the authority as far as they are concerned. I still like the word itinerants, but I'm not sure how to use it here. There are so many words to describe them, but I can't think of any other good ones. Occultists is a keeper. Elementalists, troglodytes (hur), dispossesed, displaced...


The precedent for elders in battles has recently been established with the introduction of the Prophet, who the devs refer to as an old twisted hag. I was thinking (since we are establishing there was a hierarchy within the group) that the ones going into the fight are the ones near the end of their days (going down fighting in the place of their understudies); but we could do middle aged as well, kind of a required tour of duty before ascending further in the hierarchy. Both scenarios would be fine by me.

Maybe, but the hags have guns and blades. Still, I've known some older people who could pack a punch I suppose.


It works for me and the various skins could more than satisfy player preference, I forgot to point out that all of the human classes, along with their different skins, obscure the face in some manner. I am working on getting a scanner, but that will take sometime.

Is there a reason for that? Reduction in animation requirements? Would we need to continue it?


I love what you did with the story.

I was hoping you might. I went back through the thread and carefully reread your comments.


Only thing I would change on the Primary is
Sunlight-(high damage, high area of effect beyond center, short range)4 rounds per charge/low fire rate
Water-(medium damage, medium area of effect beyond center, medium range)6 rounds per charge/fast fire rate
Stone-(medium damage, low area of effect beyond center, long range/damage)6 rounds per charge/medium fire rate
*With a damage drop past medium range
Fire-(high damage, no area of effect beyond center, long range)5 rounds per charge/medium fire rate
*With a damage drop past medium range

I'd switch water and sunlight. I know in SR1 sunlight is the more powerful glyph, but our class doesn't have the same capability as Raziel at using them. The only reason I say this is that a wide blast of water droplets burning over a wide area might look cooler. Works either way though.

Is that not too many shots for a 'shotgun' (analogue) type of class? I don't know much about how the other classes work and how it compares...


Can't really do double barrel blast for one type without doing it for all of them and double barrel stone might render the spread advantage you get with water redundant.

Oh, no, not what I meant. I meant that you could launch the material from either hand one at a time... one 'barrel' at a time.


For Sound, what about no damage and no reduction to their abilities; but creating a triple vision effect with all moving characters going in 3 separate directions from where they were.
http://i39.tinypic.com/1zfiy38.jpg


Force should do a little damage, collision and fall damage at least.

Sure. Just didn't want to risk making it too powerful. It does render them vulnerable to other attacks as well. A little damage is probably fine.


Escape is perfect and ideal for helping compensate for slow movements, if you are willing to go without what the other spells provide. I love it.

Very useful, but very risky. Perfect combination for making strategy challenging. Strategy is one of the things that is going to set this idea apart as the class is not much of a direct shooter.


I don't know about shield, maybe with a short cooldown (around 5-8 seconds) with a shorter run time (3-5 seconds at most) but even then that might be a bit op. It would be Ideal for defending teammates at the healing station. What kind of defense would it provide? Instead of it dealing damage back could it knock attack vampires back with a stumble, unless its a turelim charge?

I don't know... to be honest, I think this is my dullest idea. It doesn't provide much in terms of interest. Unless you can think of a way of making it interesting, I suggest we abandon it.


The more I think on Lay Barrier the more it feels like something that promotes camping in the game and that makes me a little nervous. It will need a short duration with a long cooldown and it can't stop a vampire but maybe slow them down as they pass through while dealing a slight degree of damage, if any at at all. It can't be able to stop things like sentinel explosive bombs or dumahim smoke bombs from passing through, but maybe reduce the damage from blast if the blast radius needs to pass through the barrier to reach the player. Even with all this I feel we need to choose between Lay Barrier and Shield, they both seem really similar but different types of defense wall spells and we only need 1 of them. I don't see both of them making it together.

Oh, absolutely; a big cool-down, short duration and limitations. Maybe it could be made vulnerable to charge, dive bomb, shadow step etc. It would not stop anything other than vampires.


EDIT
The max damage output for each type should be around 1100-1200. Most human classes are between 1200-1400 max; but it should be less since it is spread shot and the likely hood of missing is less than the other human classes at various ranges. So how about this for a start?
Sunlight-275 (single blast)/4 rounds/ max damage: 1100/ past medium range:0 damage
Water-160 (20 shot at 8 damage each)/7 rounds/ max damage: 1120/ past medium range:0-50 damage
Stone-200 (8 shot at 25 damage each)/6 rounds/ max damage: 1200/ past medium range:0-100 damage
Fire-240 (single shot)/5 rounds/ max damage: 1200/ past medium range: 150 damage

You've lost me here. I haven't actually played the game and this is detail that might need testing in play.


EDIT
How about this for lay barrier? Instead of raising a single solid barrier that physically hinders vampires movements, it raises a pair of barrier that are bent towards each other at the ends like a circle but don't connect. These barriers function like as an illusion, each barrier reflects what is on the other barrier's side like a warped mirror, making the space between the barriers an area of invisibility from certain angles and the barriers being two way from the inside.

I know it might not be easy to understand but perhaps Q can explain it better.
(2:48-3:34)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uZRYO8BcL4

Heh. Don't worry, I got the idea. I've a degree in Physics and I used to read about new and theoretical technology.


Unlike the current camouflage this one is fixed and does not offer the player mobility, but it can be raised anywhere beyond where the player is standing, (even around other players). It would offer no physical protection and once anyone shoots through it or any vampire passes through it the barrier dissolves. It could serve as an escape/evasion ability for yourself and your team or, if you are clever, an excellent trap.
-For example, a scout lays his Bouncing Betty Mine and you raise the barrier around it. You or someone stands at one end of the barrier as a vampire walks in from the other side, the vampire sees you plain as day and is unaware of the barrier gap between you, and runs towards you. The vampire then unknowingly passes through the barrier, dissolving it, and lands point blank on top of the mine with no time for escape.

It's interesting, but I think its use is probably limited to the mine idea, otherwise it would slow the gameplay down. It would promote the camping thingy you were talking about. With the barrier, I hoped to introduce something that created spontaneous alterations in gameplay by forcing vampires to redirect. They can jump or fly over, climb around or even walk around if the caster casts foolishly. Its basic use buys time, but its advanced use earns kills. It was meant as a quite strategy spell.

GenFeelGood
8th Jun 2014, 03:19
I think I might have misunderstood. I thought you meant that tattoos and magical symbols would be the humans' tools for managing this magic within their bodies. Is this right?

Yes, but it can do that plus offer melee. I was just referring to the effect staying the same for the hands to keep them simple and let the forearms be where the cooler stuff is since it is the larger surface, allowing it to be better seen.



With the shimmer, I meant that effect that you get light reflects of ripples. Water doesn't have much of a colour, but it does bend light. The effects that I mentioned need not be that busy. The magic would only leak a little. Fire might be a lightly glowing ripple, like on a burnt out log; sunlight a gentle glow; stone could be a granite pattern. Take a look at the banner the top of the home page: www.nosgoth.com - some of these effects can be made very subtle. I'd still like some delicate flames, but it would depend on how it looks I suppose.

The wounds would look interesting, but too many would suggest damage and frailty that don't fit the class's melee backup. Remember that Nosgoth's water element is the one connected to the principle of states, which is the origin of the ice magic. This element shouldn't have the same association. The shirtless one might also look cool, but do you have a backup for the lack of armour?

If the effects can be done then they would be fine by me.

I have a rough sketch of the shirtless skin option, which I am thinking should be called something along the lines of " True Believer Garments" as something worn by those who believe that the words of their scripture (which have either been tattooed or carved into their skin) will be enough to protect them from harm. I do have a rough sketch for an alternative skin I am still working on the name for, its something using their mining gear after it has been repurposed into makeshift leather armor. I will post the sketches once I finally get a scanner.


What I meant before is that a disciple is a follower. They don't follow the spirits, but just take guidance from them. In the story they believe that these spirits are actually their own people trapped in a kind of purgatory, so they're not unnamed. They don't worship or follow, because they believe themselves to be working with their own; they are the authority as far as they are concerned. I still like the word itinerants, but I'm not sure how to use it here. There are so many words to describe them, but I can't think of any other good ones. Occultists is a keeper. Elementalists, troglodytes (hur), dispossesed, displaced...

Do you want Occultists to be their nickname (like Scouts, Hunters, and Alchemists) or their group affiliation (like Watchers, Ironguard, and Red Sisters of Anacrothe)? How about Exiles, Druids, or Shades?



Maybe, but the hags have guns and blades. Still, I've known some older people who could pack a punch I suppose.

Is there a reason for that? Reduction in animation requirements? Would we need to continue it?

I'd switch water and sunlight. I know in SR1 sunlight is the more powerful glyph, but our class doesn't have the same capability as Raziel at using them. The only reason I say this is that a wide blast of water droplets burning over a wide area might look cooler. Works either way though.

Is that not too many shots for a 'shotgun' (analogue) type of class? I don't know much about how the other classes work and how it compares...

Oh, no, not what I meant. I meant that you could launch the material from either hand one at a time... one 'barrel' at a time.

I don't know... to be honest, I think this is my dullest idea. It doesn't provide much in terms of interest. Unless you can think of a way of making it interesting, I suggest we abandon it.


Age isn't a priority for me so its all good, which ever way we end up going .

I don't know the reason behind covering the faces of the humans; but I already factored them into the sketches so I didn't see a reason to stop.

Sunlight could fit as the birdshot variant, actually a little better then water since this variant would be the one to have a faster fire rate than the others. Its no more rounds per clip than the alchemist and she is packing a grenade launcher, plus this way we don't put too much power in each shot.


You've lost me here. I haven't actually played the game and this is detail that might need testing in play.
Sorry about that, the maximum amount of damage the human classes can deliver with their weapon before needing to reload is somewhere between 1200 dps and 1400 dps. An example would be the alchemist's standard full bore cannon shoots 5 rounds at 240 dps. I was just attempting to put a number value; but you are right that this is something for devs to figure out in QA.


It's interesting, but I think its use is probably limited to the mine idea, otherwise it would slow the gameplay down. It would promote the camping thingy you were talking about. With the barrier, I hoped to introduce something that created spontaneous alterations in gameplay by forcing vampires to redirect. They can jump or fly over, climb around or even walk around if the caster casts foolishly. Its basic use buys time, but its advanced use earns kills. It was meant as a quite strategy spell.

This would be intend to be more for escape and evasion than for offense; and I agree that lay barrier as it is would be more desired on the field. Since neither of us are fond of shield lets remove and replace it with this, give this a different name like Cloak. These spells unrelated to the glyphs, are we saying that these were what they used before the glyphs to escape and evade the evils of Nosgoth? If so then this would fit well into that category.

Darkborne
9th Jun 2014, 12:22
I love the fact that you're sticking to the story of LoK and SR and stuff... But aren't you just limiting your potential that way? You have got an AMAZING game here where you can go any way you want! Create your own story?

Would it be blasphemy to add some "lost vampire tribe" or "forgotten human society" or stuff like that in the game? You kno, to not limit yourself to the storyline (not saying it's bad, I love it for as far as I know it ^^)

I'm lvl 17 so far, bought the Immortal pack cuz I NEEDED my friends to see how awesome this game is and to further support this game... And so far I've just been loving it, even with the kinks (beta is beta...) And I can't wait to see a whole lot of new diversity in this game

Sanguise23
9th Jun 2014, 12:27
i think it must follow lore as closely as possible

Lord_Aevum
9th Jun 2014, 13:02
Would it be blasphemy to add some "lost vampire tribe" or "forgotten human society" or stuff like that in the game?

In general, yes.

Xindark
9th Jun 2014, 18:39
they are always restraints =\

GenFeelGood
10th Jun 2014, 07:22
I love the fact that you're sticking to the story of LoK and SR and stuff... But aren't you just limiting your potential that way? You have got an AMAZING game here where you can go any way you want! Create your own story?

Would it be blasphemy to add some "lost vampire tribe" or "forgotten human society" or stuff like that in the game? You kno, to not limit yourself to the storyline (not saying it's bad, I love it for as far as I know it ^^)

There are things that just simply can't be done within an established universe, especially one with such a detailed history and timeline, without cheapening it. Its one of the main reasons that attempting to continue this series has been such a challenge. Yes, the goal is to make something to its full potential; but not at the expense of the integrity of the series this game is derived from by ignoring the established lore.

Edit
For Ruevergne, I believe I have found something that demonstrates the physical build I am picturing.
http://www.therobotspajamas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sherlock-holmes-movie-robertdowney-boxing-thumb-400x266-31757.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPcgNVLH576wTZ_wHx88K3U23KaGxB94g1JRWkq7KK1oKALqeeqghttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShXj7uyPgldmAm30z4oZKd2TSWR9MXvAex9P5VDxOfiRhs7ueFUQ

GenFeelGood
15th Jun 2014, 21:38
I finally got my hands on a scanner. Remember that these are rough sketches and just roughly show what I am picturing.

This is a frontal overview of the shirtless skin called "Veil of the Faithful" worn by those who believe that the words of their gospel (which has been inked and carved into their skin) is enough to protect them from harm.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-69nd7vw1UyM/U54RXZ-eBdI/AAAAAAAAAIc/mkhxpDH-mQo/w426-h647/IMG_0002.jpg

This is a frontal overview of something more practical called "Mining Harness" made up of protective gear developed for their mining projects that has been repurposed as makeshift light armor.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vLkmapVdTmc/U54RnWjHDyI/AAAAAAAAAJM/6zfnXpfJxhI/w426-h567/IMG_0001.jpg

This is a close up of the first skin (Veil of the Faithful) showing off more of the arm.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2Ja3R4tmj7Y/U54RsKvuYYI/AAAAAAAAAJw/BjFX8qAy2zU/w426-h556/IMG_0003.jpg

croackerz
18th Jun 2014, 19:40
need human tank. armored knight maybe

Vampmaster
18th Jun 2014, 19:46
need human tank. armored knight maybe

Giant with big ol' sling weapon.

Ruevergne
18th Jun 2014, 23:34
Yes, but it can do that plus offer melee. I was just referring to the effect staying the same for the hands to keep them simple and let the forearms be where the cooler stuff is since it is the larger surface, allowing it to be better seen.

If the effects can be done then they would be fine by me.

Yes. Definitely forearms. I was thinking that the effects would be reduced when the magic has been fully discharged and a reload is necessary.


Do you want Occultists to be their nickname (like Scouts, Hunters, and Alchemists) or their group affiliation (like Watchers, Ironguard, and Red Sisters of Anacrothe)? How about Exiles, Druids, or Shades?

Tough one. If it's the latter then they could be the Tellurian Occult, to refer to their plane of existence. They're not technically exiles, so that word doesn't work. Druid has a few definitions and could work. No to shades; they think of themselves as serving a kind of spiritual divinity. Shades would be more along the lines of how they refer to their opponents.


I don't know the reason behind covering the faces of the humans; but I already factored them into the sketches so I didn't see a reason to stop.

I think it's for animation reduction. No lips.


Sunlight could fit as the birdshot variant, actually a little better then water since this variant would be the one to have a faster fire rate than the others. Its no more rounds per clip than the alchemist and she is packing a grenade launcher, plus this way we don't put too much power in each shot.

Yep.


Sorry about that, the maximum amount of damage the human classes can deliver with their weapon before needing to reload is somewhere between 1200 dps and 1400 dps. An example would be the alchemist's standard full bore cannon shoots 5 rounds at 240 dps. I was just attempting to put a number value; but you are right that this is something for devs to figure out in QA.

Ah okay. So there's a kind of equality based on this principle.


This would be intend to be more for escape and evasion than for offense; and I agree that lay barrier as it is would be more desired on the field. Since neither of us are fond of shield lets remove and replace it with this, give this a different name like Cloak. These spells unrelated to the glyphs, are we saying that these were what they used before the glyphs to escape and evade the evils of Nosgoth? If so then this would fit well into that category.

Spot on. That way we keep both Barrier and Cloak (what about Bend Light).


I love the fact that you're sticking to the story of LoK and SR and stuff... But aren't you just limiting your potential that way? You have got an AMAZING game here where you can go any way you want! Create your own story?

Would it be blasphemy to add some "lost vampire tribe" or "forgotten human society" or stuff like that in the game? You kno, to not limit yourself to the storyline (not saying it's bad, I love it for as far as I know it ^^)

I'm lvl 17 so far, bought the Immortal pack cuz I NEEDED my friends to see how awesome this game is and to further support this game... And so far I've just been loving it, even with the kinks (beta is beta...) And I can't wait to see a whole lot of new diversity in this game

Pretty difficult, as everything new has to fit what currently exists in the game's canon. A lost vampire tribe would not make sense, as the Pillars of Nosgoth would not have fallen so easily had one existed. This is a vital point. Likewise, a human civilisation that Kain never became even remotely aware of in his millennia of rule would suggest that his subjugation of the human race was completely misrepresented in the storyline... not to mention that he would have needed to be pretty lazy. Our storyline does introduce a new group, but retaining canonical continuity. The refugees would be an obvious side-effect of Blood Omen's events, but they were never mentioned.

Keep up the game support. It'll only get better.


For Ruevergne, I believe I have found something that demonstrates the physical build I am picturing.
http://www.therobotspajamas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sherlock-holmes-movie-robertdowney-boxing-thumb-400x266-31757.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPcgNVLH576wTZ_wHx88K3U23KaGxB94g1JRWkq7KK1oKALqeeqghttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShXj7uyPgldmAm30z4oZKd2TSWR9MXvAex9P5VDxOfiRhs7ueFUQ

Very slightly less fat, but retaining the sinews and muscles. Looks good.


I finally got my hands on a scanner. Remember that these are rough sketches and just roughly show what I am picturing.

This is a frontal overview of the shirtless skin called "Veil of the Faithful" worn by those who believe that the words of their gospel (which has been inked and carved into their skin) is enough to protect them from harm.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-69nd7vw1UyM/U54RXZ-eBdI/AAAAAAAAAIc/mkhxpDH-mQo/w426-h647/IMG_0002.jpg

This is a frontal overview of something more practical called "Mining Harness" made up of protective gear developed for their mining projects that has been repurposed as makeshift light armor.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vLkmapVdTmc/U54RnWjHDyI/AAAAAAAAAJM/6zfnXpfJxhI/w426-h567/IMG_0001.jpg

This is a close up of the first skin (Veil of the Faithful) showing off more of the arm.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2Ja3R4tmj7Y/U54RsKvuYYI/AAAAAAAAAJw/BjFX8qAy2zU/w426-h556/IMG_0003.jpg

We're thinking along the same lines for the body tattoos... kind of. I was thinking something more organically shaped. Like a band that followed the pectoral region and shoulder blades, but excluded the abdomen and lower back. I see what you mean about the armour replacement concept, but I wonder whether this would be too magically taxing. No other sorcerers in the games managed a permanent magical barrier.

The veil on the head needs to be reversed. The eyes are the window to the soul and the source of expression, so let's see some pious rage in them.

Not sure about the mining kit. I think of them as fairly well equipped and the warriors would have dedicated ceremonial armour of their own. Have you got a picture based on the first description we had for them?

Is that a sunlight glyph I see? Shiny shiny smack! The tattoos should probably stop at the knuckles. Gives them a nice fingerless glove effect.

GenFeelGood
19th Jun 2014, 00:09
Druid has a few definitions and could work. No to shades; they think of themselves as serving a kind of spiritual divinity. Shades would be more along the lines of how they refer to their opponents.

I am leaning more towards Druids; but, if this is going to be the nickname that the rest of the human factions refer to them as, shades could also work since this is how they might appear to outsiders.



(what about Bend Light).
Could work, how do you feel about calling it Prism?


We're thinking along the same lines for the body tattoos... kind of. I was thinking something more organically shaped. Like a band that followed the pectoral region and shoulder blades, but excluded the abdomen and lower back. I see what you mean about the armour replacement concept, but I wonder whether this would be too magically taxing. No other sorcerers in the games managed a permanent magical barrier.

I think I understand, you are wanting something closer to a tradition Thai chest tattoo.
http://www.shuizmz.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/DSC_0742.jpg


The veil on the head needs to be reversed. The eyes are the window to the soul and the source of expression, so let's see some pious rage in them.

Wouldn't really be much of a veil anymore, but its doable.


Not sure about the mining kit. I think of them as fairly well equipped and the warriors would have dedicated ceremonial armour of their own. Have you got a picture based on the first description we had for them?

That could be another skin. each class has 5 in total, including the base skin. No sketch, but I'll get on it.


Is that a sunlight glyph I see? Shiny shiny smack! The tattoos should probably stop at the knuckles. Gives them a nice fingerless glove effect.

Thought it would be a nice touch to throw the glyph mark into the designs. For the effects of the sunlight glyph on the forearm I was thinking that the effect could be something similar to Northern Lights hovering across the tattoo pattern, just off the skin.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/gallery/2010/11/11/1289495137452/Northern-lights-in-Canada-006.jpg

Edit
Could you quote that first description of them for the sketch? I can't figure out which description you are referring to.

Here is a rough sketch involving a concept skin center around the judo kimono you mentioned. Again, this is a rough sketch.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dy-L-u600gw/U6JbxCEzRHI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/1E4uAK1zVHg/w426-h930/IMG_0001.jpg


Elementalists, troglodytes (hur), dispossesed, displaced...
What about Elementals? The only inconsistency would be that (where elementals are either fire, water, earth, or air) ours is fire, water, stone (earth), or sunlight.

Elementals of the Tellurian Occult

One last couple of skin concept sketches

This one is a little more malevolent in look. Its a decorative chest plate that is rigged over a thick leather trench coat with patterns that match. Kind of went a little wild with the mask and helmet so that may need some work; but I call it "Prodigal Armor" and it is awarded to those proven to be the elite among each class of cadets during the trials of training for this war.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qRmPjuGOcps/U6TwgKGIf8I/AAAAAAAAANQ/a43xtAaUXlI/w426-h930/IMG.jpg

This is an updated version of the Veil of the Faithful
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xAWkn-pP-58/U6boewi9mjI/AAAAAAAAAN8/7jXj0b4G-Mk/w426-h930/IMG.jpg

Ruevergne
12th Jul 2014, 19:06
I am leaning more towards Druids; but, if this is going to be the nickname that the rest of the human factions refer to them as, shades could also work since this is how they might appear to outsiders.

Druid could definitely work. Our idea doesn't bear much relation to the classical idea of a druid, but the word describes a number of ideas and a belief system based on elements and spirituality could involves druids. Shades would have to be an external nickname, but there is already a creature in the LoK series called a shade. I prefer something like Drifters or Outsiders to refer to the way they hang on outside of other civilisations. Similar to the way some gypsies once did.


Could work, how do you feel about calling it Prism?

Prisms separate light into its component frequencies. As a physics graduate, I'd consider it a little bit of a misnomer.


I think I understand, you are wanting something closer to a tradition Thai chest tattoo.
http://www.shuizmz.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/DSC_0742.jpg

Wow. That guy on the right really cracked me up. What an amazing style.

Yes. More like that, but bigger and following more of the body's natural contours.


That could be another skin. each class has 5 in total, including the base skin. No sketch, but I'll get on it.

I had an idea for this based on the locations of the shrines: force – near the SR1 charnel house; sound – beneath the Silenced Cathedral; fire – near the Drowned Abbey; water – hidden within the Human Citadel; earth – near Nupraptor's former keep; sunlight – hidden near the Silenced Cathedral by tunnel access. These are all on the periphery of human settlements. The idea is that we can use regional variations for the clothing based on environments. For example, those in the Human Citadel might wear clothing that helps them blend in a bit more with the locals without abandoning their cultural distinctions.


Thought it would be a nice touch to throw the glyph mark into the designs. For the effects of the sunlight glyph on the forearm I was thinking that the effect could be something similar to Northern Lights hovering across the tattoo pattern, just off the skin.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/gallery/2010/11/11/1289495137452/Northern-lights-in-Canada-006.jpg

Definitely. Those glyph marks need to turn up somewhere. One of the most important bits of tying it in visually.

That would look very pretty, if possibly a bit busy. A possible, better alternative might be a solar corona effect. Like so:

http://www.sunearthplan.net/media/tn_2518_thesunswrongwayroundheat.jpg


Edit
Could you quote that first description of them for the sketch? I can't figure out which description you are referring to.

Sure. Here you go:


Absolutely, but more practical again than those of Moebius or Vorador. Let's take out the tails. I was thinking something like a judo kimono, but with no sleeves and trousers more suited to running. Maybe bound at the bottom like this:

http://www.templeofshaolin.com/files/2012/02/shaolin-monks-training.jpg

The 'kimono' could be held together firmly with rope or a belt. I think it should be sleeveless to the point that we can see the tattoos running up the arms and on to the backs of the shoulders. Some leather armour probably ought to be included, but beneath the 'kimono'. Thigh and shin guards and I think boots. Secondary spell types could have their symbol or glyph tattooed on to the backs of the shoulders. The clothing could be made decorative, but nothing that dangles too much. Pretty fatal, things that dangle in combat. I'm thinking long, unruly hair, tied back, but this is just a style preference... they could have bald option or whatever takes a player's fancy.


Here is a rough sketch involving a concept skin center around the judo kimono you mentioned. Again, this is a rough sketch.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dy-L-u600gw/U6JbxCEzRHI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/1E4uAK1zVHg/w426-h930/IMG_0001.jpg

Looks cool, but I can see we're thinking on moderately different lines here and there. The way I envision them in general is minimalist: symbolism; expressions of belief; combat practicalities... but not a lot more. Their image should avoid anything too dark, as they see themselves as something to fight the darkness. I'd like to see faces and hair... a dark, greying, unkempt ponytail perhaps. That said, that new veil looks like it could definitely be a variation.

Your first sketch here isn't far off what I was thinking; just minus the mask and with an asymmetry where the kimono fabric overlaps.


What about Elementals? The only inconsistency would be that (where elementals are either fire, water, earth, or air) ours is fire, water, stone (earth), or sunlight.

Elementals of the Tellurian Occult

Could do. I think Elemental would typically refer to something naturally imbued with an element or a manifestation of an element – which is why I used Elementalist instead – but it could refer to our guy as well.


This one is a little more malevolent in look. Its a decorative chest plate that is rigged over a thick leather trench coat with patterns that match. Kind of went a little wild with the mask and helmet so that may need some work; but I call it "Prodigal Armor" and it is awarded to those proven to be the elite among each class of cadets during the trials of training for this war.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qRmPjuGOcps/U6TwgKGIf8I/AAAAAAAAANQ/a43xtAaUXlI/w426-h930/IMG.jpg

Yikes. Very dark. Remember that these guys are obsessed with being the light in the darkness. Vampires are not intimidated, so I'm not sure this works. I also think our guys shouldn't get bogged down with elitism. This is the path more arrogant, self-obsessed ideas. Keep that idea for something else though. He could be a nice steam-punk dude.


This is an updated version of the Veil of the Faithful
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xAWkn-pP-58/U6boewi9mjI/AAAAAAAAAN8/7jXj0b4G-Mk/w426-h930/IMG.jpg

I like this as an idea for the group who could have originated near the Stone Glyph Shrine, in the mountains. Their religious attire could include a veil as required by the nature of the cooler, mountain climate. Maybe they should have more to their attire though.

GenFeelGood
13th Jul 2014, 03:00
Druid could definitely work. Our idea doesn't bear much relation to the classical idea of a druid, but the word describes a number of ideas and a belief system based on elements and spirituality could involves druids. Shades would have to be an external nickname, but there is already a creature in the LoK series called a shade. I prefer something like Drifters or Outsiders to refer to the way they hang on outside of other civilisations. Similar to the way some gypsies once did.

How about Pilgrims then?



Prisms separate light into its component frequencies. As a physics graduate, I'd consider it a little bit of a misnomer.

We can come back to that.



I had an idea for this based on the locations of the shrines: force – near the SR1 charnel house; sound – beneath the Silenced Cathedral; fire – near the Drowned Abbey; water – hidden within the Human Citadel; earth – near Nupraptor's former keep; sunlight – hidden near the Silenced Cathedral by tunnel access. These are all on the periphery of human settlements. The idea is that we can use regional variations for the clothing based on environments. For example, those in the Human Citadel might wear clothing that helps them blend in a bit more with the locals without abandoning their cultural distinctions.

A different skin for the locations of the shrines, I can get behind that; but, with 6 glyphs and 5 skins possible, what glyph gets left out? I imagine we definitely want skins for the 4 glyphs that are used in the base attacks, that leaves the choice between force and sound. For the skins we could reference the statues at three of the shrines (fire, water, stone)

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/hY-CFPBx2k0/hqdefault.jpghttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130625140108/legacyofkain/images/thumb/d/da/SR1-Screenshot-Location-StoneGlyphAltar.png/250px-SR1-Screenshot-Location-StoneGlyphAltar.pnghttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130729215459/legacyofkain/images/thumb/3/3f/SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png/140px-SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png



That would look very pretty, if possibly a bit busy. A possible, better alternative might be a solar corona effect. Like so:

http://www.sunearthplan.net/media/tn_2518_thesunswrongwayroundheat.jpg

That does look better



Looks cool, but I can see we're thinking on moderately different lines here and there. The way I envision them in general is minimalist: symbolism; expressions of belief; combat practicalities... but not a lot more. Their image should avoid anything too dark, as they see themselves as something to fight the darkness. I'd like to see faces and hair... a dark, greying, unkempt ponytail perhaps. That said, that new veil looks like it could definitely be a variation.

Your first sketch here isn't far off what I was thinking; just minus the mask and with an asymmetry where the kimono fabric overlaps.

Noted, I'll try to have a new version soon



Yikes. Very dark. Remember that these guys are obsessed with being the light in the darkness. Vampires are not intimidated, so I'm not sure this works. I also think our guys shouldn't get bogged down with elitism. This is the path more arrogant, self-obsessed ideas. Keep that idea for something else though. He could be a nice steam-punk dude.


We would need a steam punk for sunlight if we are going that direction with the skins. I can make adjustments, but the only people that would have been around the lighthouse would be maintenance teams, lighthouse keepers. Keepers of the Light, I like the sound of that for the skin.



I like this as an idea for the group who could have originated near the Stone Glyph Shrine, in the mountains. Their religious attire could include a veil as required by the nature of the cooler, mountain climate. Maybe they should have more to their attire though.

I can add more clothing but the tattoos might no longer be the focus of the skin then. What did you have in mind?

rommor
14th Jul 2014, 04:03
I would love to see our standard ideal of Crusader maybe one in the guise of the Sarafam, a true "Holy Warrior", sword and shield ready to combat the dark forces, or carry a large two handed weapon such a flail or claymore at the sacrifice of defense.

Holy armour which is anathema to the touch of the vampire, lack of speed and ranged attack forcing him head first into each encounter, each skilled warriors veteran of battles and taught the ideals of the crusades against their once prey now predators seeking to return to the balance of the world by purging the real of Nosgoth of the darkness that is the Vampire.

"It was during these dark times infested with the plague of the undead, that the Circle brought the Sarafan to existence. Trained to be devoutly loyal to the Circle, and the perfect exterminators of the undead scourge, they were led to many victories by the righteous paladin, Malek. They cleansed the vampires with fire, and released their souls to more blessed realms. There is no wrath as terrible as that of the righteous"

Hashakgik888
18th Jul 2014, 11:27
I would love to see our standard ideal of Crusader maybe one in the guise of the Sarafam, a true "Holy Warrior", sword and shield ready to combat the dark forces, or carry a large two handed weapon such a flail or claymore at the sacrifice of defense.

Holy armour which is anathema to the touch of the vampire, lack of speed and ranged attack forcing him head first into each encounter, each skilled warriors veteran of battles and taught the ideals of the crusades against their once prey now predators seeking to return to the balance of the world by purging the real of Nosgoth of the darkness that is the Vampire.

"It was during these dark times infested with the plague of the undead, that the Circle brought the Sarafan to existence. Trained to be devoutly loyal to the Circle, and the perfect exterminators of the undead scourge, they were led to many victories by the righteous paladin, Malek. They cleansed the vampires with fire, and released their souls to more blessed realms. There is no wrath as terrible as that of the righteous"

No.


Melee.


Humans.


EDIT: Also, all the Sarafan are deaaaaad!

Ruevergne
19th Jul 2014, 00:39
How about Pilgrims then?

Pilgrims would explain how they acquire multiple elemental powers by travelling from shrine to shrine.

Pilgrims, Elementalists, Elementals and Druids all work as a title for them to refer to themselves. Drifters or Outsiders work as derogatory terms for others to refer to them. We could have one from each. You can choose.


A different skin for the locations of the shrines, I can get behind that; but, with 6 glyphs and 5 skins possible, what glyph gets left out? I imagine we definitely want skins for the 4 glyphs that are used in the base attacks, that leaves the choice between force and sound. For the skins we could reference the statues at three of the shrines (fire, water, stone)

Force gets left out. It's located near a charnel house and probably the least interesting for ideas.

My vague ideas:

Sunlight is based around an industrial building. I'm imagining them to still have the symbols on their attire, but they'd have durable leather as their outer attire. Fabrics would be destroyed in their work.
Fire is based near the abbey. This looks like the best candidate for your full tattoo showcase. Though I'm still a little dubious about them catching colds, this location is the most southerly and their shrine is full of fires.
Water is based within the humans' citadel. They are most likely to generate distrust here, so they would wear clothing based the designs around them, with leather armour beneath. See: http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Villagers_(SR1)
Sound is based beneath the cathedral. This group has one of the strongest ties, as sound is an integral part of the design of the cathedral. They probably were the most integrated group of all, plotting the mass death of the vampires with the rest of the cathedral's inhabitants. This could be that first design we talked about – short, sleeveless kimono etc.
Stone is based by Nupraptor's Retreat. The northerly position at the edge of the mountains means a harsher environment. This would be the best location for the veiled, heavily clothed pilgrim.


http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/hY-CFPBx2k0/hqdefault.jpghttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130625140108/legacyofkain/images/thumb/d/da/SR1-Screenshot-Location-StoneGlyphAltar.png/250px-SR1-Screenshot-Location-StoneGlyphAltar.pnghttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130729215459/legacyofkain/images/thumb/3/3f/SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png/140px-SR1-Texture-Mural-FireGlyphAltar-VampFigure.png

The first one would be impractical to reference. The stone glyph statue looks moderately practical, but I'd prefer a development of your veil idea. That last carving is vampiric in origin... definitely can't reference that.


That does look better

I love flares.



Noted, I'll try to have a new version soon

I look forward to it.


We would need a steam punk for sunlight if we are going that direction with the skins. I can make adjustments, but the only people that would have been around the lighthouse would be maintenance teams, lighthouse keepers. Keepers of the Light, I like the sound of that for the skin.

Careful not to go too overboard. Soul Reaver didn't really have any full blown steam punk elements.


I can add more clothing but the tattoos might no longer be the focus of the skin then. What did you have in mind?

We'll keep a variation for showcasing the chest and back tattoos. The rest should have more clothing.


I would love to see our standard ideal of Crusader maybe one in the guise of the Sarafam, a true "Holy Warrior", sword and shield ready to combat the dark forces, or carry a large two handed weapon such a flail or claymore at the sacrifice of defense.

Holy armour which is anathema to the touch of the vampire, lack of speed and ranged attack forcing him head first into each encounter, each skilled warriors veteran of battles and taught the ideals of the crusades against their once prey now predators seeking to return to the balance of the world by purging the real of Nosgoth of the darkness that is the Vampire.

"It was during these dark times infested with the plague of the undead, that the Circle brought the Sarafan to existence. Trained to be devoutly loyal to the Circle, and the perfect exterminators of the undead scourge, they were led to many victories by the righteous paladin, Malek. They cleansed the vampires with fire, and released their souls to more blessed realms. There is no wrath as terrible as that of the righteous"

Hash'ak'gik is correct. Also, the developers have stated that they wish to keep the design as humans with ranged weapons vs melee vampires. It's part of the what makes the game fairly unique.

GenFeelGood
20th Jul 2014, 02:59
Sunlight is based around an industrial building. I'm imagining them to still have the symbols on their attire, but they'd have durable leather as their outer attire. Fabrics would be destroyed in their work.
Early steam punk, nothing outrageous, but with elements vaguely suggesting it.

Fire is based near the abbey. This looks like the best candidate for your full tattoo showcase. Though I'm still a little dubious about them catching colds, this location is the most southerly and their shrine is full of fires.
Why worried about them catching cold, perhaps at this time the tunnels connecting to it haven't flooded yet?

Water is based within the humans' citadel. They are most likely to generate distrust here, so they would wear clothing based the designs around them, with leather armour beneath.
I'll work something up around that image


Sound is based beneath the cathedral. This group has one of the strongest ties, as sound is an integral part of the design of the cathedral. They probably were the most integrated group of all, plotting the mass death of the vampires with the rest of the cathedral's inhabitants. This could be that first design we talked about – short, sleeveless kimono etc.
We could make something based around the attire adepts and novitiates that resided within the Cathedral in the time of Soul Reaver, since they likely descend from those former human occupiers.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100904091810/legacyofkain/images/thumb/c/c9/SR1-Screenshot-Enemy-WorshiperNovitiate.jpg/250px-SR1-Screenshot-Enemy-WorshiperNovitiate.jpghttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100904091925/legacyofkain/images/thumb/c/cc/SR1-Screenshot-Enemy-WorshiperAdept.jpg/250px-SR1-Screenshot-Enemy-WorshiperAdept.jpg


Stone is based by Nupraptor's Retreat. The northerly position at the edge of the mountains means a harsher environment. This would be the best location for the veiled, heavily clothed pilgrim.
I'll see what I can do, I wanna avoid something old world like viking attire; and I will take battling the cold into account.

Edit
Another rough sketch

This is intended as a concept for the low key skin for the water shrine near the human citadel. Its a short sleeve gambeson, a type of padded armor that has been made to look like a thick coat. It uses arm braces and gloves while not in a match, long sleeves would be damaged by the elemental energy circulating around the forearm so something removable would be more practical.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LSIYB0N_Ojc/U8tOE6-fcKI/AAAAAAAAAXM/SEwiCcPo744/w426-h930/IMG.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OIQykdfT3Oo/U9Fn7eWHC4I/AAAAAAAAAb8/MOlxur3ijOY/w426-h642/IMG+%282%29.jpg

This is intended as a concept for the skin of the stone shrine. Instead of a fur armor to cope with the cold, I used a long wool winter coat over his leather armor, with a mouth and nose covering. I didn't think to add a hood but I could if you would like. He has sleeves that are rolled up during the match to protect them from the elemental energy circulating the forearm.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PqVytBOvSw8/U8tYZgL7T2I/AAAAAAAAAZw/qaAM7d6NAAY/w426-h918/IMG_0002.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PDiOSiV4MsU/U9Fn0j49IAI/AAAAAAAAAbg/sFhQ-itRN5w/w426-h468/IMG_0001.jpg

rommor
1st Aug 2014, 17:25
No.


Melee.


Humans.


EDIT: Also, all the Sarafan are deaaaaad!

Someone's never hit middle mouse then :D

But seriously I suggest 2hnd or 1hnd weapons, either could be changed to suit that limitation that isn't really in the game (Vampires use range as well), but as for the Sarafan is deaaaaad! didn't say reserecut the Sarafan even though they have reappeared in different forms or spirit in the Legacy but I did mention in the "GUISE", surely humans would be passing on tales of previous conquest to inspire their rebellion against their now tyrant overlords.

As for ranged weapons crusaders in both real and Legacy were proficient with all types of weapons if you can't think of an alternative to the melee options I suggest reading about about medieval combat, nor are crusaders affixed to any style of armor.

The lore tidbit I added was just abit of flavor to add to the post I enjoy the lore and wanted to add a little depth to my reasoning.

Sanguise23
1st Aug 2014, 20:45
(Vampires use range as well)
When we say vamps are melee humans are ranged we mean there primary attack not poison bomb or airstrike etc

rommor
2nd Aug 2014, 15:53
When we say vamps are melee humans are ranged we mean there primary attack not poison bomb or airstrike etc

People are missing the point I made, like I said in my last post the melee option doesn't have to be his primary form of attack Crusaders and the Sarafan/Mercenary/Vampire Hunter [Brawlers] soldiers used different array of weapons throughout LoK and Soul Reaver that would fall into the same category as I'm talking about, magic being one of the main stopping powers against the vampire forces that they employed enchanted weapons, armor and straight forward spells, Fire enhancement particular have a fire splash effect doing a short range cone dmg rather than using the weapon as a direct way to wound the vampires.

Shield idea for the "Crusader" as far as gameplay idea was to use it as a blocking force disabling his movement as he braces to take brunt of damage, breaking his defence incapping him for a short period if he is worn down.

For me personally when I think of humans in Nosgoth it's always found it hard to believe there is no puritan force represented by the spiritual side yet the opposite moral archetype the prophet is in the game, corrupting herself to repel vampires and harm them.

lucinvampire
6th Aug 2014, 14:22
I was thinking last night whilst playing how nice it would be for the Humans to have another AOE dealer like the Alchemist - all the other classes are more precision shots...and for people who aren't too good at aiming etc you're kind of left with only the choice of Alchemist to play – which can make the game a bit repetitive and stale...it would be nice to have another AOE dealer to give a bit more variety.

I'm not saying another class in the same design/abilities as her but something that takes a little less accuracy...though I haven’t really thought about a concept – just thought it'd be cool :D

...waterbender :lol:

BloodFiend666
6th Aug 2014, 16:59
I want a trap based class lots of landmines (Water sunburst ect...) as a primary wepon javelins these would have the most dp compared to other human wepons but be limited to like 20 before a shrine is needed a net would be cool as well it would work like the boa but instead of pining there arms there droped to the floor (Would be awesome to catch a sentinal mid dive) (>O vv O)>