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rhalibus
20th May 2008, 06:30
I'm replaying DX1 again (w/ HDTP) and I realize that the one thing I use more often than in any other FPS is the lean option.

DX1 allows a very generous lean move: you can lean completely out from behind a wall and then release to be completely hidden again. I'm surprised how many FPS'es with lean options don't go far enough to make the option a viable choice.

Since DX1 relies so much upon covert movement, its lean options really add to the game. I spend a lot of time sneaking up to a wall in a crouched position and then leaning around the corner to get a full view of the next room, knowing that I can quickly snap back.

I hope Eidos Montreal realizes this important feature and doesn't remove it like Ion Storm did for DX:IW.

On a similar note: I have wondered about the ramifications of DX3 having a cover option similar to the Rainbow Six Vegas PC series, in which you would play as first-person but temporarily went to a cinematic third-person as you took cover. Would this be a possible good idea or would it spoil the immersion? What do you all think?

user-9
20th May 2008, 07:46
Yes, let's hope they make the player as mobile as possible...

One of the few good things DX:IW was the ability to mantle.

I hope they keep leaning and mantling.

DXeXodus
20th May 2008, 07:53
The lean option in DX1 was brilliant. It allowed one to alter the view quite dramatically and see around corners nicely, especially when compared to other FPS games. This, as mentioned, adds to the stealth dynamic and allows one to quickly assess the situation without exposing your body too much. DX3 should definitely incorporate this option again.

As for the cover system. It can work, but it will have to be implemented properly. The cover system includes many things as seen in Rainbow six:Vegas and, if used correctly can add to the game alot, especially in terms of stealth. It can also add to the game in terms of aggressive gameplay as one can just duck behind cover and shoot blind. I think it is just personal preference and is dependent on the way you like to play. In addition, this feauture will allow us to see our character in action more often.

jordan_a
20th May 2008, 11:22
play as first-person but temporarily went to a cinematic third-person as you took cover.I hate it. A game like Deus Ex needs to be played only in 1st person even if it's harder. The Vegas system is for dynamic games.

serene_chaos
20th May 2008, 12:53
As much as i like the idea of blindfire, i have to agree with jordan. it should always stay in 1st person. cause 1st person is what it's aaalllllll about. even if there are vehicles, or something, the game needs to stay in 1st person.

Blade_hunter
20th May 2008, 16:45
For the character moves I agree with the fact to get some third person shooter moves, the lean feature, and maybe some infiltration game moves, but we must stay on first person view, I dislike the fact in some recent FPS games like Rainbow Six to change the view in 3rd person view. I prefer to see our own body make some moves but in 1st person view.
When some games uses vehicles they use a switch to 3rd person view when you go into a vehicle; the first game with this feature was C&C Renegade, they use the same switching when you climb ladders, it was ugly for the immersion.
I think the game can use a third person feature if some players wants it but not as a switch or an auto switch in the game, it can be only a game parameter or never add the 3rd person view, it depends on the fact if we have too much players against the 3rd view or not.

Fen
20th May 2008, 17:04
I agree we should always stay in first person mode. However cover based play is great, and I would like to see some of it in dx3.

The only way I think it could be implemented well, would be that the higher the percentage of your body that is in range of your enemy, the exponentially higher hit rate he has. So standing out in the open and shooting is just downright stupid on higher difficulty modes. Players will have to do their shooting by leaning out around corners etc.

jordan_a
20th May 2008, 19:51
Rhalibus, Camera (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75068)

jcp28
20th May 2008, 23:47
Screw 3rd person. 1st person provides the ultimate immersion experience, in my opinion.

DXeXodus
21st May 2008, 04:10
It is indeed true that making a transition between 1st and 3rd person breaks the immersion of the game. I still say it would be cool to see more of our character. But I suppose everyone is correct here, it should be 1st person all the way.

rhalibus
21st May 2008, 06:53
I think I'm coming down as well on the side of 1st person only, using the lean functions as cover. I know some new console games are experimenting with a 1st person cover system, but the more I think of it the more I believe Eidos Montreal shouldn't fix what isn't necessarily broken...:)

Now let's go in the opposite direction: The DX series is played in 1st player, except during longer 3rd-person conversations that require a player response. How do people feel about keeping the conversations 1st person as well?

Here's how it could work--the player selects an important NPC. The NPC starts talking to the player, but the view remains 1st person and the player can still move around and even leave the area around the NPC to break off the conversation. The player will also automatically voice non-variable responses, the way JC did in DX1.

When a response is required and the player is still within the NPC area, the player can choose a response by holding down the tab key (or some other key), quickly mouse wheeling to one of the appropriate responses that suddenly appear on the lower part of the screen, and releasing the key--much like picking a weapon or tool in the Ghost Recon Advance Warfighter series.

More resources would have to be put into what the NPC does if you leave a conversation, but the whole concept could increase the immersion in a new way; you would never leave first person, and you would only see your own avatar if you were looking in a mirror (ala Duke Nuke'm).

Would this be too complicated? Let me know what you think!

RedFeather1975
21st May 2008, 07:32
It would be neat if they could figure out how to do it in 1st person.
Maybe have the guy hold a mirror to help aim first. :lmao:

DXeXodus
21st May 2008, 09:54
That dialogue idea might be a bit too complicated. I felt that the dialogue in DX1 didn't break the immersion. I really like being able to see my character from time to time, and not just in mirrors. Assassins creed had interactive cutscenes where the player could move around and look around and change viewpoints. I quite enjoyed that, so maybe your idea does have merit.

serene_chaos
21st May 2008, 11:56
The chronicles of rid**** did the 1st-person-to-3rd-person-transitions-while-keeping-the-immersion thing well.
But DX is a different game. I still maintain that while a thing CAN work, it doesnt HAVE to be implemented. the game can be fine totally in 1st person.

I'm not sure if i like the being-able-to-run-around-while-in-a-conversation-idea though. i liked the way s.t.a.l.k.e.r. did conversations, with stuff happening around you in real time, and if an enemy came near the npc would stop the conversation and go fight.
In conclusion: that real-time aspect of s.t.a.l.k.e.r., with the 1st person style of oblivion, and the dialogue and choices of DX.

Voltaire
21st May 2008, 12:39
Something I found interesting about the DX1 lean function was that it allowed the player to shoot round corners, as well as just peek. Some FPS games (I'm thinking RTCWolfenstein) allow a lean, but purely to be able to see around corners, rather than do anything.

I am strictly opposed to a third person viewpoint even in the most marginal of circumstances, as it detracts totally from the premise of the game: what a man can do. If he has mechanical augmentations, he might be able to jump off buildings or punch through concrete, but no man can inexplicably see the world from three feet above his own head.

DXeXodus
21st May 2008, 12:53
If he has mechanical augmentations, he might be able to jump off buildings or punch through concrete, but no man can inexplicably see the world from three feet above his own head.

QFT

jordan_a
21st May 2008, 12:59
Rhalibus, Camera (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75068) and Sneaking (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75113)

Tsumaru
23rd May 2008, 06:29
Lean = fantastic. I use it in every game which has the option, and often miss it if it's not there.
Mantling = I think I may have used it once? More often it caused me problems. When I wanted to just jump straight up quickly, he tried to mantle because I was too close to the wall and didn't realise.
R6Vegas third-person switch = the mobility of that game was absolutely brilliant, but it's worth pointing out that it was designed to be so dynamic. You're the absolute elite in close-quarters combat. We're talking an international special ops team. I always felt that the earlier Rainbow Six games were lacking something. They felt the same as those SWAT games. Rainbow Six Vegas was carried by that mobility... but it wouldn't work in every game. Remember that this is *all* you have in R6. If you don't get in cover, you most likely *will* die. It just doesn't seem necessary in Deus Ex. Of course, necessary and good are two separate things. But I just can't see myself making full use of it. You're a super tough nano-tech augmented agent. You don't need to crouch and hide behind walls, shooting blindly over the top. You could jump ten feet into the air and pop a 9mm round straight through five guys' heads before landing again.

In all seriousness, all Deus Ex really needs is crouch and lean. Everything else is just over-the-top. The R6 Vegas movement didn't even add a whole lot more on top of that - it was just done differently. If you think about it, having your back to a wall and then spinning around the corner is basically identical to lean - except you have the unrealistic view of seeing what is past the wall first. Crouching down behind the small wall and then quickly popping up the top is the same thing - it's basically just a cooler and dodgier way of turning off crouch. I loved it in Rainbow Six Vegas, but I don't think it will add too much to Deus Ex.

Note: I don't have as much of a problem with maintaining "immersive first person". I never felt I lost that immersion in Rainbow Six. I think maybe because the fight scenes were often just too damn intense it drew me in. But it was a bit dodgy how you could see everything going on when your character was technically facing the complete opposite direction (back towards the "camera").


If he has mechanical augmentations, he might be able to jump off buildings or punch through concrete, but no man can inexplicably see the world from three feet above his own head.
Whats about them there bots in IW? =P

sea
23rd May 2008, 13:09
Regarding player movement, I don't think a cover system is at all necessary, especially in a first-person game. Killzone 2 does this, and the idea of having to "snap" to a wall to peek out from it is just silly and awkward. Gears of War and other shooters work well with cover systems because it is essentially the basis of the game; flanking and staying behind cover while popping out to attack is what those games are all about.

Deus Ex, however, is a hybrid RPG/shooter, and so I have trouble seeing the importance of a cover system and/or a third-person camera of any sort in the game, seeing as how it would likely just damage immersion. Stealth has a very nice "feel" in Deus Ex despite the fact that it's a first-person game; you really feel like you're constantly in motion, fluid as you peek around corners and switch between a run and a crouch. Unless you're being stealthy, however, I don't think cover is all that necessary in Deus Ex. If you're going to go guns-out, rambo-style, then you have other augmentations that turn you into a damage-absorbing tank anyway, making cover use virtually inconsequential. In short, keep cover there for stealthy players, but not for action-oriented players; don't just shoehorn in a cover system because it's what everyone else is doing.

I'd say just keep the leaning left and right, and possibly an upwards lean if it's really warranted (for shooting above cover). As for mantling... eh, it doesn't matter that much to me. If you include it, then it just means you'll need to make objects that can't be climbed without augmentations that much taller; if you don't include it, then you arguably lose out on a bit of realism. Deus Ex has a nice "true 3D" feel to it, with lots of vertical movement (the warehouse district of Manhattan being one of the best examples), so it might be beneficial to make things taller and open up a greater range of vertical movement. Jumping up the ledges of skyscrapers or on apartment building fire escapes as an alternative to taking the stairs or the elevator could be a really cool reward for players who choose to invest in the more acrobatic augmentations (of course, I'm not talking Crackdown here), just as characters who play it stealthy can be equally rewarded with hidden caches of items and whatnot.

The beauty of accommodating the different play styles that make Deus Ex stand out is that it's actually not that hard to incorporate them into already-existing environments. Vents are probably the easiest example; they're about as cheap and easy as it gets when it comes to giving stealthy players an alternate route, take very little time or effort to produce, and go a long way towards increasing immersion and believability for the player. Meanwhile, if you're looking for the above-mentioned vertical exploration, again, it's not too tough. A few logically-placed ledges, catwalks, etc. on the exterior of a building are all it takes to provide more acrobatic players hours of free platforming.

Tsumaru
23rd May 2008, 13:36
I totally agree with sea. That's what I was trying to say, but I didn't manage the clarity that he did. =P

One thing I did just think of... I wonder if there would be much benefit of a prone? It really depends on the environment I guess. I use prone a lot in first person shooters which are in open natural environments - lying down within/behind bushes etc. Not as valuable in the urban setting of Deus Ex I guess. But just as a general open discussion - what do people think? It's pretty damn easy to implement, but would it be worth anything?

sea
23rd May 2008, 14:13
I don't really get the point of a prone position, myself. It's like a subset of crouch, where you move even more slowly and lower to the ground. It's never really been necessary in any games, except perhaps action-heavy ones like Call of Duty, where sometimes the only cover you have is a ditch. In Deus Ex, stealth and cover usage tends to be a bit more traditional, i.e. hiding behind boxes and walls, so I don't know if prone would really add anything to that.

Blade_hunter
23rd May 2008, 14:28
Yes a large kind of moves are a good thing for DX it makes each players satisfied by the gameplay, DX mixed them very well, I played to DX using brute force and stealth tactics.
For DX 3 I think the come back of leaning is a good thing, and add some new moves it makes the game better.
But form the third person view I agree they used it on the conversations, but it makes the conversations like a cut scene and keep the fact the universe around us continues and this form of cut scenes doesn't break the game like other forms when you change levels by a vehicle when we use the chopper, the sub, we can see a sort of cut scene in third person view. this kind of cut scene is a feature of the unreal engine like the "flyby" of the first Unreal.
It simplify some things like they didn't make any vid for the game, because they use the engine to make cut scenes and interactive cut scenes. For me it's better than make a vid for the game because all things looks like the same, Final fantasy when I played the 8 it has fantastic cut scenes and a mediocre graphic look inside the game; ok it's a different genre but. I prefer to get the same graphics everywhere on a game than get different graphics for the game engine and the cut scenes. An other thing it can makes a cut scene a bit different a each replays because we can be on a different position and location.
It's just my opinion but cut scenes is different than action inside the game, it's for that reason I don't want a transition between 1st and 3rd person view because we change our position or we use a vehicle or what ever append during the action; if we switched for a conversation the thing was different in my opinion because it acts like a cut scene.

rhalibus
23rd May 2008, 19:16
Regarding player movement, I don't think a cover system is at all necessary, especially in a first-person game. (...)

Deus Ex, however, is a hybrid RPG/shooter, and so I have trouble seeing the importance of a cover system and/or a third-person camera of any sort in the game, seeing as how it would likely just damage immersion. Stealth has a very nice "feel" in Deus Ex despite the fact that it's a first-person game; you really feel like you're constantly in motion, fluid as you peek around corners and switch between a run and a crouch.

I'd say just keep the leaning left and right, and possibly an upwards lean if it's really warranted (for shooting above cover). As for mantling... eh, it doesn't matter that much to me. If you include it, then it just means you'll need to make objects that can't be climbed without augmentations that much taller; if you don't include it, then you arguably lose out on a bit of realism. Deus Ex has a nice "true 3D" feel to it, with lots of vertical movement (the warehouse district of Manhattan being one of the best examples), so it might be beneficial to make things taller and open up a greater range of vertical movement. Jumping up the ledges of skyscrapers or on apartment building fire escapes as an alternative to taking the stairs or the elevator could be a really cool reward for players who choose to invest in the more acrobatic augmentations (of course, I'm not talking Crackdown here), just as characters who play it stealthy can be equally rewarded with hidden caches of items and whatnot.

The beauty of accommodating the different play styles that make Deus Ex stand out is that it's actually not that hard to incorporate them into already-existing environments. Vents are probably the easiest example; they're about as cheap and easy as it gets when it comes to giving stealthy players an alternate route, take very little time or effort to produce, and go a long way towards increasing immersion and believability for the player. Meanwhile, if you're looking for the above-mentioned vertical exploration, again, it's not too tough. A few logically-placed ledges, catwalks, etc. on the exterior of a building are all it takes to provide more acrobatic players hours of free platforming.

Well said, sea! I also think mantling would be a great addition to DX3; you could still make the jumping and box-lifting augs useful by having ledges and windows even higher.

Although I do agree with your later post about a "prone" position being unnecessary for DX, it certainly helped in Crysis...:)

Station409
3rd Jul 2008, 06:44
The "Vegas" cover system works for Gears of War, but I felt it dumbed down the excellent system that was in place in Rainbow Six - Raven Shield and Athena Sword.

I'd much rather have the lean option around corners, rather than Vegas style cover. But perhaps a combination of both? You can lean if you want, or be more stealthy and press up against a wall to peek around the corner if you just want to look into the room but not attack?

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 06:53
It would be needed for stealth play -- especially if DX3 has the option like in DX to go through the entire game and not kill anything (the hardest of all challenges that game offers).

AI is still pretty dumb (can still fool them via not tripping triggers). In MP though, a good lean and cover is needed (and good level design to not have bullets killing players through solid walls, especially near corners).

Romeo
3rd Jul 2008, 07:45
Personally I think there's nothing worse than a first-person that tries to implement cover. If you're going to have third-person moments, make it a third-person game, or don't have cover. Now, I can't imagine Deus Ex in third-person, so logic would dictate not having cover at all - leaning exempt.

Old_Snake
9th Jul 2008, 22:40
I think the system used in Chronicles of Rid****: EFBB was great. Have the body of the player visible from 1st person to increase immersion whilst having certain actions in the 3rd person to help gameplay aspects and help prevent frustration.

Blade_hunter
10th Jul 2008, 00:06
:lol: :D In an other posts there is the same idea and :D

:mad2: :lmao: :lmao: :mad2: :lmao: :lmao: :mad2: :lmao: :lmao: :mad2:

:whistle:

yamasaer
11th Jul 2008, 01:24
1 Vote for Movement in Rainbow Six Vegas 2

Someone please make this thread a poll

Blade_hunter
11th Jul 2008, 17:33
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75068&page=2

Look here first ;) this thread is about moves capabilities, this link is for camera

El_Bel
11th Jul 2008, 23:21
Excuse me but i have a stupid question... What is cover? What is its deference from leaning? Its basically the same thing!! You use it to look or shoot around a corner with only exposing a small part your body!!

Fen
12th Jul 2008, 16:33
Excuse me but i have a stupid question... What is cover? What is its deference from leaning? Its basically the same thing!! You use it to look or shoot around a corner with only exposing a small part your body!!

Its a little bit of a new fad in shooting games these days to allow the player to lock into a piece of the environment. Basically, instead of having to manually position your player so they are covered, the game will do it for you and allow you to poke your head out to shoot etc. while keeping your body covered.

It adds a sense of realism to the game and makes gunfights a little bit more tactical, but it also has its downsides. They often are plagued with control issues with your charcter not locking into the correct piece of the environment or you not being able to cleanly get unstuck from the environment. Also seeing as DX is a first person game, it would be really hard to implement without looking stupid.

Blade_hunter
12th Jul 2008, 22:58
In DX we have covering options yes, and I think for many stealth players, they wants covering, but the thing I don't want is the 1st person / 3rd person autoswitch to make different actions (like R6 vegas, C&C Renegade, R i d d i c k, even the UT series since when they introduce the vehicles.)
Because this kind of autoswitch kills the immersion, In stalker when we use a vehicle we stay on the first person view, and this makes the game immersive.

El_Bel
13th Jul 2008, 01:23
exactly, they dont need to fix something that isnt broken!! Keep the original leaning/cover system!!! (As always...sometimes i am afraid we dont give those guys at eidos freedom to make their own staff..)

imported_D_X
13th Jul 2008, 12:27
I know this a long shot but I would like to see Deus Ex 3 use the movements of that new game "Mirror's Edge". It's in first person but you have the freedom of movement like in a third person game...like climbing walls, hanging from edges, sliding underneath something etc. while having the ability to see most of your body. :D

Blade_hunter
13th Jul 2008, 12:48
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=76994

In this post you can see a great part of us is for this kind of view and allow the moves of third person games