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Blade_hunter
19th May 2008, 13:04
For the game i think talking about technology is important because on some suggestion's posts we have something confusing about this fact. Some guy's wants only an actual technology, some others wants a full sci-fi or a sort a illogical technology and we have some guys in between that want a sort of middle compromise.

For the weapons we have

-Ballistic weapons; that includes: bullet based weapons, shells, grenades, rockets, missiles, etc
-Throwing weapons; that includes: hand grenades, mines, bottles, etc
-Melee weapons; that includes: Swords, knives, hammers, tools, kitchen tools, and other stuff
-Energy weapons, that includes: lasers (low or high powered lasers), electrical devices, radiation devices(gamma, alpha, beta, UV, X rays, microwaves, etc...), ion based weapons, etc
-Chemical weapons, like acid/ bases based weapons, bacterial weapons, napalm based weapons, liquid nitrogen based weapons, etc
-Hybrid weapons, that includes: Railguns, Gauss rifles, Plasma devices, etc
-Special weapons, we have, Gravity, Antimatter, atomic, proton devices, etc

For the character

We have the Biotechnology, that allows to our character to become a sort of human with bionic devices like JC, Paul, and Alex or uses some genetics parts to become a sort of mutant.
We have the electromechanical devices to be a robot with sometimes an human appearance or maybe a thong more like Gunther/Anna/Jordan Shea/Simons a "mech mod" Human based body with implemented electronic devices.

These technologies allows the next things

-Nano-augmented agent biomods are well integrated on our body (like JC)
-Human mutant an human with animal specs
-Mech mod they are the way between the robots and the nano-augmented agents they have robot parts and organic parts (like Gunther)
-Robots most robots are only mechanical but sometimes they have an external skin like "Terminator" or some internal organic parts like the MJ12 commandos or can be a full machine with an IA after all

For the environment

-We can find some traditional places, we can be on close future like the 6th day movie or a full future with flying cars, translocation or what ever with maybe some original places ...
-The technology advancement can allow or not some things for the levels, etc.
-The generalization of some advanced technology can make different things.
-The state of the society allows the fact if we have much destroyed places or not, etc ...

I make this post to know how much sci-fi most people wants the game will be, and see some ideas about the realism, actual technologies, etc...
Most of us have ideas but sometimes the technologies related with the idea makes some disagreements because it's too sci fi or for other reasons.
Sometimes it was for the game orientation because some guys thinks DX is a closed genre or some others thinks DX is an opened genre.
I don't speak about every points because I forget to speak about some things but I think it's good to see different opinions about the technology for minor or major things of course, it can be used for useful or useless things of course.

jordan_a
19th May 2008, 14:31
Hi, I remember there was a thread about science and technonolgy, I'm not sure where it is now but I think it was opened by an admin (XCom?).

Blade_hunter
19th May 2008, 17:05
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75271

This is this post but it won't really shows what each player wants it's more to speak about our future technology but if the subject is the same my post can be a reply ....

depends ....

Chemix
19th May 2008, 18:39
I think it's good to make things appear minorly post modern, while being more advanced beneath the outward appearance. Deus Ex shows this theme throughout, with hidden devices and trap doors. Nothing is what it seems, unless of course; it is what it seems.

Blade_hunter
19th May 2008, 23:31
Interesting... If I understood your phrase, it will be say you want some sci-fi but with a realistic actual look to appears close our universe, but stay futuristic and more advanced as our actual technology and make most actual prototypes things as more standard and usable things...
Hum, I've right, wrong or not exactly ?

HouseOfPain
20th May 2008, 00:14
I think the idea is defiantly more realistic, Like in the Temple/Castle level of DX1

Its still a temple but with many technological modifications. I liked it very much :)

Chemix
20th May 2008, 00:21
Sort of: advanced technology is hidden behind relatively primitive environments. Having a weapon with lots of glowing things all the time isn't very stealthy, it draws attention, so it's best to conceal them until one is firing or in a heavy combat situation. So 2 modes, single shot where you see it's more advanced mechanisms only when it fires, for sniping and stealth combat, and then assault mode where the mechanisms are fully visible as you use the weapon. A careful note is to make the weapons appear solid, and not flimsy.

Blade_hunter
20th May 2008, 00:48
I loved the game because the environments are close to our environments, and yes the fact we can find some advanced technology on normal environments it's a thing I loved to find on the original game DX 1
Ok I see :)

DXeXodus
20th May 2008, 04:05
As others have mentioned in this thread I would like to see a world that is similar to ours now, just with more technological advancement within it. It was great to observe strong contrasts between levels, and to see new technology in old levels. The gritty levels in DX1 were true cyberpunk and that is why I loved them so much. DX2 felt way too much like star wars and the levels felt almost 'plasticky'. (for lack of a better word)

As for the weaponry. The weapons in DX2 felt very light and 'cheap' and this could be easily seen in the pistol. It was tiny. It did not feel authentic. The sound it made was pathetic. A gun should be reasonably big, should seem heavy and should sound like a gun, not like someone hitting a ruler on a desk.
And lets not talk about whether or not to have multiple or universal ammo, that horse has already been flogged to death.

As for character technology, I believe that the formula used in DX1 was an appropriate one. We need more augmentation slots than in Invisible War - 6 was way too little. With more slots available augs must become permanent again. I think being able to develope your character as a hybrid agent using both mechanical and biomechanical elements in your body would be an interesting dynamic. This would change the way characters interact with you, but having different elements could result in you being able to join different societies. For instance, if you are a pure mechanical agent then you could infiltrate a faction of similar disposition. Of course all the advantages and disadvantages of this could be overted in some or other way as information could be retieved and goals can be completed in multiple ways.

Thats me for now :)

Larington
20th May 2008, 08:38
As much as anything else, I think the augs in DX2 were sort of too powerful and mostly err, too standardised I suppose. There was quite a lot of variety in the bio-mods in DX1 and I definately appreciated that. I did like the glass distabilizer in DX2 though, that was clever.

DXeXodus
20th May 2008, 10:18
I think that the glass destabilizer mod was one of the best things that DX2 brought to the DX table. It was a great tool for any stealth player.

jordan_a
20th May 2008, 11:26
I believe the glass destabilizer is a looooooong way. Moreover it makes the game too easy.

deus ex fan
20th May 2008, 12:24
when i was in Trier levels i used my gun with glass destabilizer to break guns shop's glasses(without triggering the alarm and consequently the turrets)in the narrow path of buildings.It was very useful(and very futuristic)"tool".......

Deus Ex's technologies in both DX1 and DX2 are(at least some of them)today experimental technologies.....

i believe that DXeXodus is wrong in his comparison of DX1 levels with DX2 levels.My personal opinion is that DX1 levels were just gritty,atmospheric and DX2 levels were truly futuristic and truly cyberpunk(and of course more atmospheric than DX1-especially with "gloom" effect activated........)

i remember those blade runner style anti-gravity bots of DX2.Especially in Seattle levels......

Blade_hunter
20th May 2008, 16:21
As I proposed in a post the glass destabilizer can be an ammo type for a weapon or some weapons in the game, like the EMP converter an EMP ammo
These weapon mods are used to work with the universal ammo system
But if we change them as an ammo type it can keep the logic and gives more uses for the multiple ammo system and the fact to use a specific weapon because it can use glass destabilizer ammo these weapons are in a certain number and this ammo can have some other uses like break a window silently or use metal surfaces to make a noise to do a diversion and avoid the guards.

minus0ne
20th May 2008, 17:01
I believe the glass destabilizer is a looooooong way. Moreover it makes the game too easy.
So true. I still like the concept though, but glass destabilizing ammo just makes too little sense to me. Perhaps they could make a separate gadget (or incorporate its functionality in a special baton or something, provided there are extremely long recharge times for its use of course).

Larington
20th May 2008, 17:01
"As I proposed in a post the glass destabilizer can be an ammo type..."

Pretty much agree with that, this way you can make it really rare whilst still maintaining its inherent value.

jcp28
20th May 2008, 23:37
i believe that DXeXodus is wrong in his comparison of DX1 levels with DX2 levels.My personal opinion is that DX1 levels were just gritty,atmospheric and DX2 levels were truly futuristic and truly cyberpunk(and of course more atmospheric than DX1-especially with "gloom" effect activated........)


A certain cyberpunk atmosphere is what DX is all about, but we don't want any whacky far-future technology. The feeling I get from these forums(which is something I agree with) is that DX was such a great game in part because the world was not unlike our own, yet had cool bits of future technology like the augs, security bots, and other stuff.

Keep in mind that technology will be slightly behind what it was in DX 1 if this game is a prequel. So certain things like plasma rifles may not exist, while other things, like military bots, may have considerably smaller numbers. Just a few things to mull over.

DXeXodus
21st May 2008, 04:27
i believe that DXeXodus is wrong in his comparison of DX1 levels with DX2 levels.My personal opinion is that DX1 levels were just gritty,atmospheric and DX2 levels were truly futuristic and truly cyberpunk(and of course more atmospheric than DX1-especially with "gloom" effect activated........)

May I politely disagree with that statement. There is a very big difference between cyberpunk and futeristic levels. Cyberpunk levels are dark, gritty levels affected by humanity and their activities. Cyberpunk games feel much more down to earth than pure futuristic games. Star trek is not an example of cyberpunk and that is why levels akin to star trek (DX2) cannot be considered cyberpunk. DX 2 fell so short of that feeling of grittiness that DX1 established so well. The only time DX2 felt like a proper cyberpunk game was in lower seattle. It had a few other shining moments but they were few and far between. Its just my opinion of course, but the story in DX1 associated itself much more to this genre than the story of the sequel.

Larington
21st May 2008, 07:49
Theres always going to be a pre-disposition for new technology in old buildings - Look around your house right now, its probably been built in the 19th Century using old fasioned bricks and mortar (Or breeze blocks, or whatever) and yet within them, we have desktop computers, Widescreen TVs, super fancy schmancy console systems, double glazing, possibly even simple things like lights we can dim rather than just switch on and off. This is part of the reason why DX1 had such strength and character to its environments whereas in DX2 often times you were in buildings that had been rebuilt for one reason or other or completely new buildings (The Arcologies for example) which were responsible for the disconnect between cyberpunk and futuretech environments.

On top of that, if the economy of a country is suffering as well, that creates a situation where fewer people and government projects are available who have the cash to build brand new buildings. Which further increases the level of new tech in old buildings (Which co-incidentally, was part of the setting of DX1, the rich-poor gap had expanded even further resulting in fewer new construction projects). For example, those super advanced healing bots in DX1, to me they basically seemed to be a combination of a variety of different existing medical tools into a single more compact unit making big use of miniaturisation to limit the size of the medibot, a defibrilator and small biochemical analysis lab built into one unit, kinda nifty in a way.

DXeXodus
21st May 2008, 09:43
Exactly. Walking through an environment consisting of new technology contrasted with old technology is an immersive experience. It allows us to relate to the old and then experience the excitement of the new. Pure 'star-trek' levels just detract from immersion and disconnect the player from the game by placing him in something that he/she cannot relate to. That is why I love cyberpunk. It has such a gritty, human feel to it while still representing new ideas for us to experience. That is one of the biggest reasons that DX1 was so superior to it's younger brother

Fen
21st May 2008, 11:01
I totally agree with the above two posters.

DX gave you the feeling that you were in a time that really could be only 20 years away or so. It made the game very immersive. DX2 didnt have that same feeling.

An example of this can be seen in the keypads. In DX1, they were basic keypads, something you would expect to see. I very much doubt keypads are going to undergo some major revolution to make them look like the holographic things we had in DX2.

Voltaire
21st May 2008, 12:46
I totally agree with the above two posters.

DX gave you the feeling that you were in a time that really could be only 20 years away or so. It made the game very immersive. DX2 didnt have that same feeling.

An example of this can be seen in the keypads. In DX1, they were basic keypads, something you would expect to see. I very much doubt keypads are going to undergo some major revolution to make them look like the holographic things we had in DX2.

I agree wholeheartedly here. This felt like some of the technological advances just weren't necessary. If you set your game in the future, you might put in lifts (elevators :) ) that use electromagnets and claim it's to minimise friction and wasted power. Fair enough.

But when the main flashforward is anti-gravity seat cushions or turbo rocket boots for chihuahuas, the pointlessness of the futuristic innovation shines through, making the genre look cheap.
__________________
pdenton@unatco.org ;)

serene_chaos
21st May 2008, 14:29
i recently saw Children of Men, and i gotta say, that was one of the most realistically styled 'future-films' i remember ever seeing. I mean, aside from the whole, infertility malarkey, the technology was really not that far from what it is now. computers would be smaller and faster times a million, but 'gadgets' and new forms of technology like antigravity would be pretty much nonexistent, only 20 years from now.
and sure, nanotechnology is emerging, but i doubt theyll have spy drones that are built inside your head and then fly around the place transmitting images to your brain.
theyll have, like, windows that clean themselves. now THAT would make for a great game!

Blade_hunter
21st May 2008, 17:13
An anime series has some interesting features for DX it's Ghost in the shell...

minus0ne
21st May 2008, 18:15
An anime series has some interesting features for DX it's Ghost in the shell...
DX already borrowed several things from the GitS manga/film/anime universe. Not just the setting, but things like Thermoptic Camo are directly taken from GitS. I doubt there's even a DX3 developer left who hasn't read the mangas or seen the films and series :p

DXeXodus
22nd May 2008, 04:07
theyll have, like, windows that clean themselves. now THAT would make for a great game!

They already have windows that can clean themselves :)
The Future is here

Blade_hunter
24th May 2008, 13:03
Anyway I think we must add some futuristic features on the universe, but some things have a more ancient look than others, the castles, the museums, etc are always restored, cleaned, most buildings 50 and maybe 100 years later are always here, some streets were changed of course and their look changed but not to look more futuristic, even if some buildings become more windowed...
It's difficult to imagine the world 100 years later some things remains unchanged but some others change every decades approximatively...

Chemix
24th May 2008, 14:02
I think the point of cyberpunk is that we accomplish what we do today, but with advanced electronic technology underneath a modern exterior, or non modern, whichever. In a way, it's like steam punk, the same end result, but from a non-conventional means.

Blade_hunter
29th May 2008, 00:43
About technology and to diversify the weaponry I think to the weapon action like auto, burst, pump action, lever action etc ...

For the manual weapons we have the next things
Bolt action
Lever action
Break action (weapons without loaders of course)
Pump action

For semi automatic weapons we have
Gas operated
Recoil operated
Double action (For revolvers) I think it's a semi auto mode

For automatic guns
Recoil operated
Gas operated
Electric
Pneumatic, Hydraulic (Normally they were used for multibarrelled guns like a minigun)

And some kind of loadings I think goes to disappear but perhaps some civilians got some guns using more older technologies or perhaps they are more reliable like the revolver.

In T2 we can see a short lever action shotgun but on more actual times.
In red faction 1 we can see a break action railgun (called rail driver I think)

DXeXodus
29th May 2008, 04:33
In red faction 1 we can see a break action railgun (called rail driver I think)

That railgun in Red Faction was one of the best guns ever in any game. Seeing and shooting through walls, one shot on kill!

Mactypetim
29th May 2008, 05:43
Yeah, and thats why I thought the gauss gun (or rail gun) in IW sucked so bad... I was unconsciously comparing it to Red Faction :P

Mactypetim
29th May 2008, 05:45
Thing felt like a bloody pea-shooter that wasted ammo rather then kill something...

Blade_hunter
29th May 2008, 21:53
Yeah this gun rocks but do you think it's goo to see most of these gun mechanisms on DX 3 or we must be more futuristic or just see a limited number of mechanisms.
It's rare to see break action and lever action guns most of times they are hunting guns

On more future arsenal we can see some bolt action guns (sniper rifles)
most of times we can see semi autos, with recoil operation or gas operation
some guns can be used underwater, we can see caseless ammunition for some guns the first gun I know that use this technology is the HK G11, the 4.7 mm ammo of this gun presents some advantages, actually we have some inconvenients because this ammo is less reliable as a conventional cartridge, but I think in a near future these weapons are perfect and can transport more ammo and stay light with a low recoil and a higher rate of fire.

I wanted to see all of these technologies on weapons, because it can make a better variety between weapons, all of them can present some realism.
I wanted to see if some one think if it's interesting or not to see a wide variety of weapons or not.

Mactypetim
30th May 2008, 03:57
Sure. The G11's burst fire would even be a useful addition for a first-strike attack in DX 3.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as42-e.htm

And, having two sniper rifles in game to choose from would be useful too. You could have a silent one to complement the game's version of the stealth pistol (Pistol would be useful at <10 meters. Sub-sonic/silenced rifle would be useful at say <80 to <100 meters)

Then you can have a bigger .50 cal rifle. Doesn't matter if its bolt action or what, just that it can kill ANYTHING human or animal you happen to have a direct line of sight with. It would be bigger then the other rifle and take more space in your pack; which reminds me of one other thing. The DX 1 inventory was better then IW, and Eidos can use that function again to force players to prioritize themselves like they had to do in the first game ("I really want that flame thrower, but I want my assault rifle more..." etc).

Also, mixing mech and nano would be a cool option to have in regards to the player's character.

Oh, and BTW... I hesitate to bring up more advanced tech 'cause of my understanding that the game will be a prequel.

Blade_hunter
30th May 2008, 13:43
The prequel is just a rumor ;)
When I look to DX 2 in comparison of DX 1 we lose some technology's, the grenades loose they're mine function, we loose the plasma rifle and the sort of ammo that can take a form that seems too unrealistic for me (I don't think the ammo becomes nanites in the future it seems too versatile and unrealistic the guns, tools and the rest must have this technology too and why the ammo is the only thing that can be transformed it doesn't make any sens).
In DX 2 if the ammo is nanites the weapons are closer to the fifth element weapon we can see in the movie, multifunctional and we can change the propriety of each, the nanites from DX 2 makes the materials a sort of perfect thing that can be modeled at the desired form.
This look like the mean of building inspired by total annihilation (or supreme commander)
the uni ammo is the same system used by tron 2.0 but Tron have the disk that can avoid us to use ammo in DX 2 we have no ranged weapon thad can be used to save the ammo, no ammo = no ranged fire.
In DX 1 if one weapon is empty we can use an other


Also, mixing mech and nano would be a cool option to have in regards to the player's character.

Gunther, Anna Navarre, Jordan shea and others are a mix between mechs and nano tech, JC and Paul was the firsts agents technologically modified and with an human look with hidden mechanical devices.

Mactypetim
31st May 2008, 05:32
Thats the trick though... the nano agents weren't mechanical in any way that you would think using present-day thinking. Of course, logically speaking, nanites are mechanical but only smaller. But I'm talking in circles now :P

How about this as a comparison:

Nano agents are not necessarily stronger until they activate their mod that makes them strong, for example. Mech agents are naturally strong, and also naturally resilient against damage. Remember fighting Gunther? Hehe. I had no choice but to use lots of explosives! Or flame.

Remember how the black bio-mods in IW were supposed to be a class thing, sort of like a no-no that a GOOD agent would never think of doing? Reality was no one cared in game, so I used them whenever I wanted to. Just had to get them from a different place; big deal...

Using mech parts to augment yourself in game would give you a permanent bonus to whatever function that part served, kinda like a million-dollar man except much less subtle in appearance. In effect, using mech parts would be the easy way out... no turning on mods while still being seriously strong... but you would loose your ability to deal smoothly with the public. You would walk into the Underworld tavern and immediately be labeled many undesirable things and most would clam up.

In short: Want to be Rambo? Be a mech.

Want to have the option of using people skills? Use nano mods instead, at least for your limbs and skin. You could probably still get away with using a mech heart or somesuch.

About nanite uses: If this is a sequel, you could make it so a fully equipped nano agent could maybe morph like a T1000 from terminator 2 :P

The possibilities are endless, really.

Blade_hunter
31st May 2008, 17:19
I've talking about kind of players, and I think your upgrade type give you the choice to stay more organic or more mechanized, terminator have a cyberpunk style, ghost in the shell too. even if the two movies are different.

Strengths weaknesses of each race

__________________ Human ___ Robot ___ Mech mod ____ Nano ____ Mutant __ Alien
_________________________________________________ augmented
Sensibility
- Poison ____________4/5_______0/5_________1/5__________2/5_______3/5______5/5
- Radiations _________5/5_______3/5_________2/5__________3/5_______1/5______0/5
- EMP ______________0/5_______5/5_________4/5__________3/5_______0/5______1/5
- Fire _______________4/5_______2/5_________3/5__________4/5_______5/5______5/5
- Radio frequencies ___3/5_______5/5_________4/5__________3/5_______2/5______1/5
- Bashing ___________5/5_______1/5_________2/5__________4/5_______3/5______5/5
- Lethal _____________5/5_______3/5_________4/5__________5/5_______5/5______5/5
- Cold ______________4/5_______3/5_________3/5__________4/5_______5/5______2/5
- Acid ______________5/5_______4/5_________2/5__________4/5_______5/5______3/5
- Bases _____________5/5_______0/5________1/5__________4/5________3/5______2/5

Race Specs
- Strength ___________1/5_______5/5_________4/5_________2/5________3/5______2/5
- Agility _____________4/5_______1/5_________3/5_________4/5________5/5______2/5
- Endurance _________2/5_______5/5_________4/5_________3/5________3/5______4/5
- Health _____________5/5_______0/5_________4/5_________5/5________4/5______5/5
- Armor _____________0/5_______5/5_________1/5_________0/5________1/5______0/5

For killing Gunther. I kill him without guns and without the kill phrase :D

Mactypetim
2nd Jun 2008, 23:57
Yeah, I got to where I would either use the kill-phrase so I can watch him stubbornly say "...I am NOT a machine!" just before he blew up; or plant mines on the pillar next to him and run past it after the talk-fest. Boom, again!

Too much fun!

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2008, 20:27
The choices and the possibilities is the true strength of DX :).
I attract gunther on the room with the ambrosia and the turrets kills him :D
The fun with this game is the fact we can create with the existing possibilities.

To come back to the main subject.
What someone think about the gun technos, and the technos used to transform our body or animals.

I DX 1 we have the mech mods; the MJ12 commandos (entire cyborgs when we shoot them they leave some blood trails); the nano augmented agents like Walton Simons; the agents like JC and paul; the MIB that explode when then die and have a sort of robotic voices; the normal humans like most people in the game; we have mechs like the different robots from the game (with legs and with wheels or other means of movement); we have some mutants like the karkians, greasels, the grays ....

I want to see the cleaner bots make a complete cycle, activating and put the trash on the trash cans and return back when they finish their work.

And some other futuristic stuff as some previous suggestions

deus ex fan
11th Jun 2008, 09:27
May I politely disagree with that statement. There is a very big difference between cyberpunk and futeristic levels. Cyberpunk levels are dark, gritty levels affected by humanity and their activities. Cyberpunk games feel much more down to earth than pure futuristic games. Star trek is not an example of cyberpunk and that is why levels akin to star trek (DX2) cannot be considered cyberpunk. DX 2 fell so short of that feeling of grittiness that DX1 established so well. The only time DX2 felt like a proper cyberpunk game was in lower seattle. It had a few other shining moments but they were few and far between. Its just my opinion of course, but the story in DX1 associated itself much more to this genre than the story of the sequel.


i will make more clear my opinion.I've never said that DX1 is NOT cyberpunk.I think that DX1 is LESS cyberpunk than DX2.That's what i said.Both games are cyberpunk.When you have hovering security bots in DX2,the "inclinator" that connects Upper and lower Seattle (and consequently wealth and poor),and Arcology in Cairo(New Cairo)these things reminds me blade runner movie(which is a cyberpunk movie).Tell me some elements of DX1 which could remind me blade runner's elements......(i have both DX1 and DX2 so i can make comparisons.....)

Every opinion is acceptable.Definetely there is not case of misunderstanding between you and me(as both we are DX fans).:)

for the other things you said regarding levels in DX2 which are cyberpunk i totally agree that Seattle levels are truly cyberpunk(e.g WTO Air Terminal)

Many people confuse Sci-Fi with cyberpunk genre.Cyberpunk is NOT Sci-fi.Star trek is sci-fi(in space).DX is cyberpunk(in earth).Cyberpunk deal with a futuristic society that it is so modernized which is almost totally computerized (in a way that people cant do without technology in their lives and many other ideas such as totalitarian governments and social reactions e.g demonstrations and anarchism elements).So Sci-fi has nothing to do with cyberpunk,with these things.And this is another point which i agree with you.Tell to people which confuse these genres to read cyberpunk novels to realize the chaotic difference between Sci-fi and cyberpunk.......

serene_chaos
11th Jun 2008, 10:40
.... Many people confuse Sci-Fi with cyberpunk genre.Cyberpunk is NOT Sci-fi..... (etc.)

That said, cyberpunk often inherently IS science fiction, also. being set in the future, it is almost impossible not to incorporate elements of fictitious anticipated scientific developments into a cyberpunk setting. blade runner was cyberpunk, but it was also sci-fi. sci-fi is a broad term, which cyberpunk inevitably falls under, just like "drama" (lol, drama, stupidest genre name ever).

I recently saw Children of Men, (i recommend it, by the way:thumbsup: ) its set in the future, but not very far, so it borders on sci-fi and... not-sci-fi, but i guess you might call it cyberpunk, too. anyway, it's coincidentally set in 2027, i believe, so if that's the year of dx3, it'd be a great model.

Blade_hunter
11th Jun 2008, 14:54
Of course the cyberpunk universe is a sort of Sci-fi and go on space or got a part of the adventure in a space station that isn't sci-fi.
Why because space stations already exists, and we can do something on this.

Sci-fi is something doesn't exists and we have an explation due to this kind of technology or events.
the nano augmented agents and human clones are Sci fi on today's, when we clone an human this become science.
Sci fi and true science in some domains are very close because we try to find the way to acquire some unexisting technologies, like the flat screens ,the holograms, the mech augmentations etc.
some technologies as I mentioned already exists, but in a certain period of time they was Sci fi and some technologies stays already Sci-fi.
Some technologies already exists, but they are used only by the army or by scientists.
Some technologies envolved for these industries become public because we can find an use like some wears, electronic devices, etc.
Sci fi must be logical even if the invented theory is false or doesn't exists like for example the time machine or make hyperspeed travels.
the "fantastic" genre doesn't needs to be logical a creature or a mutant with an unknown origin or some surnaturals events don't need a true explanation or the fact we must be logical.

Make a true sci fi needs to be logical and imagine the future with what way the technos will take
what is the gun of the future, what is the home of the future, the shops, the means of transportation, the ressources used as fuel, what is the role of some countries, Cyberpunk universe is a sci fi universe.
Cyberpunk is a futuristic style, with the fact the human will take some mech ablities and apearances. like Terminator when we sew Arnold Schwarzenegger, with an half machine face and an half human face.
Is for that reason Cyberpunk is a Sci fi universe, I think a good universe to see is the Ghost in the shell universe.
That is very close to DX universe in some facts.

deus ex fan
13th Jun 2008, 10:54
Of course the cyberpunk universe is a sort of Sci-fi and go on space or got a part of the adventure in a space station that isn't sci-fi.
Why because space stations already exists, and we can do something on this.

Sci-fi is something doesn't exists and we have an explation due to this kind of technology or events.
the nano augmented agents and human clones are Sci fi on today's, when we clone an human this become science.
Sci fi and true science in some domains are very close because we try to find the way to acquire some unexisting technologies, like the flat screens ,the holograms, the mech augmentations etc.
some technologies as I mentioned already exists, but in a certain period of time they was Sci fi and some technologies stays already Sci-fi.
Some technologies already exists, but they are used only by the army or by scientists.
Some technologies envolved for these industries become public because we can find an use like some wears, electronic devices, etc.
Sci fi must be logical even if the invented theory is false or doesn't exists like for example the time machine or make hyperspeed travels.
the "fantastic" genre doesn't needs to be logical a creature or a mutant with an unknown origin or some surnaturals events don't need a true explanation or the fact we must be logical.

Make a true sci fi needs to be logical and imagine the future with what way the technos will take
what is the gun of the future, what is the home of the future, the shops, the means of transportation, the ressources used as fuel, what is the role of some countries, Cyberpunk universe is a sci fi universe.
Cyberpunk is a futuristic style, with the fact the human will take some mech ablities and apearances. like Terminator when we sew Arnold Schwarzenegger, with an half machine face and an half human face.
Is for that reason Cyberpunk is a Sci fi universe, I think a good universe to see is the Ghost in the shell universe.
That is very close to DX universe in some facts.

according to wikipedia cyberpunk is a Sci-fi genre.Take a look at it.

"cyberpunk" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk)


i still believe that cyberpunk has to do with just a fictious futuristic(futuristic is not appropriate sci-fi)version of our world and has nothing to do with sci-fi.Sci-fi is very deep future.The term sci-fi involves spaceships,alien tribes,with a technology that is out of our world,and whatever occurs in space.I dont understand why cyberpunk is a subgenre of sci-fi,or at least why is related to this term.The year 2027 is not sci-fi,the year 125120653 is sci-fi.With this logic "star wars" and "star trek" would be cyberpunk films.But they aren't.Why movies like "blade runner" or "gattaca" or "children of men" or "1984" or "clockwork orange" refer also as sci-fi films?(except that they are cyberpunk films of course)

serene_chaos
13th Jun 2008, 11:06
i still believe that cyberpunk has to do with just a fictious futuristic(futuristic is not appropriate sci-fi)version of our world and has nothing to do with sci-fi.Sci-fi is very deep future.The term sci-fi involves spaceships,alien tribes,with a technology that is out of our world,and whatever occurs in space.I dont understand why cyberpunk is a subgenre of sci-fi,or at least why is related to this term.The year 2027 is not sci-fi,the year 125120653 is sci-fi.With this logic "star wars" and "star trek" would be cyberpunk films.But they aren't.Why movies like "blade runner" or "gattaca" or "children of men" or "1984" or "clockwork orange" refer also as sci-fi films?(except that they are cyberpunk films of course)

you have to look at the root meaning of "sci-fi". "science fiction" simply refers to any story where fictitious scientific or technological advancements make up part of the story. I once saw a film called "The Time Machine" (i think), about a guy in the 19th century who built a time machine. That, even though it was set a hundred years ago (for the first part of the film, at least), is a science fiction movie. Cyberpunk automatically falls into the category of sci-fi because of the "cyber". compare to steampunk.
Also, if you're wondering why star wars and star trek are not considered cyberpunk, it's because of the "punk" part. cyberpunk (and steampunk) refers explicitly to dystopic settings. (or is it dystopian?)

P.S. sorry if i'm preaching to the converted.

Blade_hunter
13th Jun 2008, 20:13
Star wars have a sort of cyberpunk, when we take a look to darth vader he was completely transformed in a machine, but star wars is more "fantastic" than Sci fi even if we have a technology insinde these technologies we most of times illogical and the spirit thing called the Force makes the Star wars series more a sort of fantastic genre than a Sci-fi genre.
Superman have some technolgy the IA called "Braingnac" and the city metropolis that got some futuristic things like the "Luthor corp" labs but Superman is more a "Fantastic" genre than an other even if we have an Half man/machine
Star trek is more Sci fi without be cyberpunk, but I don't know everything related to Star trek.

But perhaps some of us doesn't know the true definition of the Cyberpunk genre.

But I've right on some therms compared to the Wikipedia definition even if my own definition

The year 2027 is Sci fi, because we can envolve unexisting technos for this year that doesn't exists on today's

An orbital elevator is Sci fi.
Go to the Mars planet too, because we sent only machines.
Go on a space station is realistic because it exists.

We can imagine a Sci fi universe close to our days as far.

deus ex fan
14th Jun 2008, 22:02
you have to look at the root meaning of "sci-fi". "science fiction" simply refers to any story where fictitious scientific or technological advancements make up part of the story. I once saw a film called "The Time Machine" (i think), about a guy in the 19th century who built a time machine. That, even though it was set a hundred years ago (for the first part of the film, at least), is a science fiction movie. Cyberpunk automatically falls into the category of sci-fi because of the "cyber". compare to steampunk.
Also, if you're wondering why star wars and star trek are not considered cyberpunk, it's because of the "punk" part. cyberpunk (and steampunk) refers explicitly to dystopic settings. (or is it dystopian?)

P.S. sorry if i'm preaching to the converted.

you dont preach to the converted,maybe I have a mistake.Generally speaking,these genres are somewhat relevant so its difficult for somebody to make a clear "statement" about which elements define cyberpunk and sci-fi.......

i've just think that cyberpunk accidentally(?) refers as a sci-fi genre..........(i mean that maybe it isn't)

(i think that)it is a whole independent genre.

deus ex fan
21st Jun 2008, 23:17
you have to look at the root meaning of "sci-fi". "science fiction" simply refers to any story where fictitious scientific or technological advancements make up part of the story. I once saw a film called "The Time Machine" (i think), about a guy in the 19th century who built a time machine. That, even though it was set a hundred years ago (for the first part of the film, at least), is a science fiction movie. Cyberpunk automatically falls into the category of sci-fi because of the "cyber". compare to steampunk.
Also, if you're wondering why star wars and star trek are not considered cyberpunk, it's because of the "punk" part. cyberpunk (and steampunk) refers explicitly to dystopic settings. (or is it dystopian?)

P.S. sorry if i'm preaching to the converted.

and for steampunk,steampunk is more optimistic/less dystopian than-totally-dystopian cyberpunk.........

serene_chaos
22nd Jun 2008, 06:49
and for steampunk,steampunk is more optimistic/less dystopian than-totally-dystopian cyberpunk.........

how do you figure that? the only difference, semantically, is the 'cyber' and 'steam' parts of the terms, which refer to the level of technology.

iWait
22nd Jun 2008, 07:33
Words used to convey thoughts, ideas. If I said gloooblybloobla to convey a sense of need for something, and got everyone to use it, in 50 years the official meaning for Gloooblybloobla would be "To need." We use etymology (Is that right?) to help understand the meaning of words by finding the past meanings of their parts. Some words like "chicken" and the infamous "N word" cannot be defined by their parts, rather their meaning was taken from past languages.

Another thing, Thermoptic Camo was taken from real life. You can use a thermal blanket right now to remain undetected by the lower-end thermal cameras. By the way, In The Terminator Arnold isn't a cyborg, he's a machine with organic skin grafted over his metal, a cyborg incorporates organic and machine parts into itself to serve a vital purpose, since Arnold's skin serves no real purpose he is not a cyborg.

And I have to add, Star Trek was cyberpunk at times, anybody remember the ruined planet with the messed up children survivors? And the tribbles....... I love the tribbles. Even if they weren't cyberpunk or sci fi they still kicked ass.

deus ex fan
22nd Jun 2008, 10:22
how do you figure that? the only difference, semantically, is the 'cyber' and 'steam' parts of the terms, which refer to the level of technology.

read wikipedia's article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk)

serene_chaos
22nd Jun 2008, 11:36
read wikipedia's article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk)
I humbly stand corrected.


By the way, In The Terminator Arnold isn't a cyborg, he's a machine with organic skin grafted over his metal, a cyborg incorporates organic and machine parts into itself to serve a vital purpose, since Arnold's skin serves no real purpose he is not a cyborg.
The Series 800 Model 101 Terminator has organic skin to allow it to pass through the time portal,:p since as John Connor eloquently points out "Nothing dead will go." This is the reason no terminator models prior to the "Arnie" went through time, but opens up the plot hole as to how the T1000 Model went through in Terminator 2: Judgement Day. If anyone can explain this to me i'd be eternally grateful.

Chemix
22nd Jun 2008, 13:10
The idea was that the T1000 could turn it's exterior into "skin", but skin is comprised of billions of cells which each in their own right is far more complex than any bomb or mechanical device on Earth. The only real way to explain it is that the T1000 was made of nanites which technically were so advanced, that they could be considered alive, but then to be considered alive it would have to be capable of death, and die it did, diehard albeit.

I think what the other poster, iWait, is getting at is that the terminator isn't combining flesh with mechanical devices, it's wearing it as a suit and can function without it, hence why Arnie isn't a cyborg. A cyborg is a combination of man and metal, where mechanical parts are integrated into flesh.

serene_chaos
22nd Jun 2008, 15:40
that's interesting. i'd never actually thought about the proper definition before. so if i were to be stabbed in the heart, and replace it with a mechanical heart, i'd be a cyborg, but if i say, had all my hair cut off, and replaced it with "mechanical hair" i would just be a freak.
then youve got to ask what the definition of "function" is. what about my hand? people who are missing a hand can still "function", so by that definition if they had a mechanical prosthetic hand, they wouldnt be considered a cyborg, even though if it were a heart they would be cyborgic. there's got to be a line somewhere.

Wait, does that mean that people with mechanical prosthetics currently are "cyborgs"?


P.S. I guess if the devs want to know what we want, this sort of discussion should give them some idea.

Chemix
22nd Jun 2008, 16:57
cy denotes cybernetic; high complexity electronics that have some kind of programmable component.

As for function, it would be to say to function as it did before loosing said item. The terminator can do everything it physically could do with skin on, with skin off, aside from use the time machine (not to mention being a lot more obvious). A person who looses a limb or hand or what have you does not function in the same way they did before loosing said body part. So a mechanical hand, if it's cybernetic in any way, yes, qualifies you for cyborg, just barely.

iWait
23rd Jun 2008, 19:55
Have you heard about that guy who got a microchip placed in his head? Technically he is a cyborg, but since the "real world" has only recently begun melding technology and man the official definition is abit floozy.

deus ex fan
27th Jul 2008, 23:36
genres which cause some kind of dispute-with good meaning-between fans......very interesting conversation here though.

indeed,cyberpunk is a kind of sci-fi,but-i think-its not.

from the other hand,cyberpunk is a world who use advanced technological achievements in a not so deep/distant future.I think that,at this point,its not sci-fi-but already a reality....

futuristic is not appropriate sci-fi........

too much futuristic tend to become sci-fi.......