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DXeXodus
19th May 2008, 08:18
Fun Fact


For a game built around grand unifying conspiracy theories, including Majestic-12 flunkies to drill and the Illuminati to join (maybe), DX had a good run at starting one of its own. The New York skyline, frequently seen from your Liberty Island hideout, is noticeably missing the twin towers of the World Trade Center... one year before 9/11. The story even put the absence down to terrorist attacks (in reality, it was due to memory limitations).

But that's nothing; the original plan was to make protagonist J.C. the descendant of Jesus Christ... three years before The Da Vinci Code. Spooky!

Quoted from: http://top100.ign.com/2007/ign_top_game_34.html

I had heard something like this before but had forgotten it until now. It's quite strange how they took the twin towers out if they are such a strong landmark. The article says that it was memory limitations but surely they could of cut something else out.

Anyway, I just found this to be quite interesting.

LeatherJacket
19th May 2008, 09:20
IIRC the NY skyline was just a "skybox". Its just a texture, so removing something from there would not make it consume any less memory :D.

DXeXodus
19th May 2008, 09:50
That is what I thought. So then why would they remove the buildings?

Nathan2000
19th May 2008, 12:02
Well, it's a bit more complicated. Originally, they had a dozen of textures for various parts of New York and New Jersey's panorama. But the island was so memory demanding, that they decided to make cuts. They took three 256x256 textures and combined them to make two cities.The deal is that the textures had to be generic and couldn't include any landmarks. More details can be found here (http://pc.ign.com/articles/386/386515p3.html).

As for Da Vinci Code, it's not an original source of the theory. It "borrowed" from the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail", which was published in 1982.

DXeXodus
19th May 2008, 12:57
Oh ok. Well that makes more sense. Thanks for the info :thumbsup:

Redrake
20th May 2008, 21:21
If JC is Jesus Christ, then Tracer Tong is Mr. T.:D

jcp28
20th May 2008, 23:48
Oh, so the initials "JC" weren't a concidence after all?:D And that's weird, since "JC" was actually a codename.

DXeXodus
21st May 2008, 04:03
Nope, no coincidence there apparently, although I'm not entirely convinced. Quite clever as I never made the connection.

Voltaire
21st May 2008, 13:15
Oh please. Failure to read into JC's messianic metaphor is really quite difficult.

1) As a test-tube baby, JC was born without sexual fertilisation.
2) His initials.
3) The option to be a benevolent ruler alongside (a) god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), after apparently sacrificing himself to said deity for the benefit of all men.
4) In the words of Morpheus, he had "No residence, no ancestry, no relatives, no employer". Arguably, all these describe the biblical Son of God

It's staring us in the face...

Nathan2000
21st May 2008, 17:22
Oh please. Failure to read into JC's messianic metaphor is really quite difficult.

1) As a test-tube baby, JC was born without sexual fertilisation.
2) His initials.
3) The option to be a benevolent ruler alongside (a) god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), after apparently sacrificing himself to said deity for the benefit of all men.
4) In the words of Morpheus, he had "No residence, no ancestry, no relatives, no employer". Arguably, all these describe the biblical Son of God

It's staring us in the face...

Jesus Christ, Denton!

minus0ne
21st May 2008, 18:32
Oh please. Failure to read into JC's messianic metaphor is really quite difficult.

1) As a test-tube baby, JC was born without sexual fertilisation.
2) His initials.
3) The option to be a benevolent ruler alongside (a) god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), after apparently sacrificing himself to said deity for the benefit of all men.
4) In the words of Morpheus, he had "No residence, no ancestry, no relatives, no employer". Arguably, all these describe the biblical Son of God

It's staring us in the face...
It's staring you in the face if you WANT it to be. DX is open to interpretation in this regard, there's no mandatory interpretation as you seem to think.

1) So? So was Dolly.
2) I see, now that you mention it, Jackie Chan does seem like a messiah.
3) The OPTION. Also, Helios is not a deity. An intelligent superorganism? Perhaps.
4) Arguably indeed. By that definition an artificially engineered (out of the DNA of his ancestors, namely the scientists who created him) homeless person without a job is a son of god?

Again, this is my interpretation, but it isn't any less or more valid than yours.

LeatherJacket
21st May 2008, 18:41
Oh please. Failure to read into JC's messianic metaphor is really quite difficult.

1) As a test-tube baby, JC was born without sexual fertilisation.
2) His initials.
3) The option to be a benevolent ruler alongside (a) god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), after apparently sacrificing himself to said deity for the benefit of all men.
4) In the words of Morpheus, he had "No residence, no ancestry, no relatives, no employer". Arguably, all these describe the biblical Son of God

It's staring us in the face...

Not everyone would look at it from a particular religion's angle.

I was sure NG Resonance was just a front for Helios/JCD because NG is JC advanced by 4 letters :D

DXeXodus
22nd May 2008, 04:05
I was sure NG Resonance was just a front for Helios/JCD because NG is JC advanced by 4 letters :D

Lol! A conspiracy by the sound of things!

Nathan2000
22nd May 2008, 11:35
1) As a test-tube baby, JC was born without sexual fertilisation.
2) His initials.
3) The option to be a benevolent ruler alongside (a) god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), after apparently sacrificing himself to said deity for the benefit of all men.
4) In the words of Morpheus, he had "No residence, no ancestry, no relatives, no employer". Arguably, all these describe the biblical Son of God

I addition, he became an indivisible part of three persons - Icarus, Daedalus and himself (just like the Father, the Holy Ghost and the Son). He died (this "state near catatonia" in Invisible War) and came back to life. He had Paul Denton (vide Paul of Tarsus/Paul the Apostle) on his side. It has to be more than just a coincidence.

mad_red
22nd May 2008, 15:33
MinusOne, your argument doesn't make sense to me.

By your reasoning, we can interpret the following profile to be a metaphor for Jesus Christ:

Any cloned sheep with the initials JC, who is sacrificed to no other god but the biblical One, and endured a life of homeless jobless person.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just the pieces. Also whether the writer meant it or not isn't even the only thing that is relevant. This is because people often don't realize what myths or archetypes are influencing them.

Artists are so rude lately. In the old times, they would at least ask for influence, instead of mindlessly taking it!
MUSE, speak to me!!! :D

minus0ne
22nd May 2008, 18:33
MinusOne, your argument doesn't make sense to me.

By your reasoning, we can interpret the following profile to be a metaphor for Jesus Christ:

Any cloned sheep with the initials JC, who is sacrificed to no other god but the biblical One, and endured a life of homeless jobless person.
I'm saying that the biblical interpretation is only "staring you in the face" if you want it to. I don't, as I don't need (or want) biblical references to enjoy the game's subtext. If Voltaire's (the poster, not the writer ;) ) definition of the son of god is such, then a homeless/travelling artificially engineered jobless person who for example sacrifices himself to save another person would fit the bill nicely. However;

- JCD has ancestors, the scientists who were chosen by MJ12 and 'fell in love'. Paul was born, and after extended cloning trials JC was born (JC is technically a twin brother of Paul).

- JCD has relatives, namely the scientists and Paul.

- JCD only "sacrifices" himself in one of the endings, again, arguably. I doubt Bob Page would've seen merging with the AI as a sacrifice.


You have to look at the whole picture, not just the pieces. Also whether the writer meant it or not isn't even the only thing that is relevant. This is because people often don't realize what myths or archetypes are influencing them.
True, although I doubt the DX devs adopted so much ancient mythological references without at least knowing some of what they were about. And I don't think they wanted to enforce one single interpretation, namely JC being the son of god, but instead chose to go for many possible interpretations. That was my point.

Tsumaru
23rd May 2008, 06:01
1) So? So was Dolly.
2) I see, now that you mention it, Jackie Chan does seem like a messiah.
3) The OPTION. Also, Helios is not a deity. An intelligent superorganism? Perhaps.
4) Arguably indeed. By that definition an artificially engineered (out of the DNA of his ancestors, namely the scientists who created him) homeless person without a job is a son of god?

While you have a response to each of his initial points, your responses cannot form into a coherent whole. The fact is that JC Denton has *all four* qualities. That is what sets him apart from Dolly and Jackie Chan etc who only have one quality.

As for the Helios is not a deity argument - semantically, you are correct. However he has infinite reasoning capacity and was basically omniscient as well. He is a good step close. Remember just because something isn't identical doesn't mean it's not metaphorical or allegorical - in fact there have to be differences or we'd just be "playing the Bible".

However, that having been said...

I doubt the DX devs adopted so much ancient mythological references without at least knowing some of what they were about. And I don't think they wanted to enforce one single interpretation, namely JC being the son of god, but instead chose to go for many possible interpretations.
http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/386/386515p1.html

IGNPC: How conscious are you guys of the correlation between the content of your game and the current global situation?

Harvey Smith: We have a running joke that's actually kind of creepy at times. Even on the first game, when we'd put something in the game, someone would point out that it had happened in the real world. Wow, that's creepy. It's not like we're forecasting or geniuses or anything. It's just when you take these elements -- conspiracy, control of power, left versus right, scientific advancement and the impact on culture -- and stir them together with an agenda, you're going to hit patterns that repeat.

We were even going to mix in religion with the first game. A lot of people don't know this but J.C. Denton was supposed to be a descendant of Jesus Christ. We were going to pick up the old theory that Jesus had kids and that J.C. Denton had DNA from Jesus. When you mix those elements around you come up with these recurring patterns.

I don't know if everyone knows this but if you fire up the original Deus Ex and you run around in Liberty Island when we made the skyline in the background we had pieces with the Twin Towers and pieces for the other parts of the city and for New Jersey. The texture memory was so high that I couldn't use it all. I took one of the pieces and put it on one side, flipped it and put it on the other. So I made New York out of one half of the city so the Twin Towers were out.

When people complained, we just explained that it had been destroyed by terrorist attacks. We start the game with the Liberty Island statue having been destroyed by terrorists a few years before. We just said that the towers had been destroyed too. And this was way before 9-11. Years. That's kind of freaky. There are correlations. We're using the WTO in this game and there are WTO riots in Seattle every few years.

You are essentially both right.

mad_red
23rd May 2008, 14:05
Well, yeah. Nobody has to interpret anything.

And also, yeah, maybe the protagonist is not just a reference to Jesus Christ. He's alot different.

But I do personally think that the writers drew specific parallels with Jesus, and that "JC" was chosen because it COULD be interpreted as Jesus Christ.

Also, isn't the end quote of the Helios ending: "If there was no God, man would find it necessary to invent Him?"

Sounds like a god to me!

Voltaire
23rd May 2008, 15:40
Well then. *Cracks knuckles*


Well, yeah. Nobody has to interpret anything.

And also, yeah, maybe the protagonist is not just a reference to Jesus Christ. He's alot different.

But I do personally think that the writers drew specific parallels with Jesus, and that "JC" was chosen because it COULD be interpreted as Jesus Christ.

Also, isn't the end quote of the Helios ending: "If there was no God, man would find it necessary to invent Him?"

Sounds like a god to me!

This is what I was saying all along. I probably should have added a disclaimer, saying that any interpretation was strictly optional...


I'm saying that the biblical interpretation is only "staring you in the face" if you want it to. I don't, as I don't need (or want) biblical references to enjoy the game's subtext. If Voltaire's (the poster, not the writer ;) ) definition of the son of god is such, then a homeless/travelling artificially engineered jobless person who for example sacrifices himself to save another person would fit the bill nicely. However;

- JCD has ancestors, the scientists who were chosen by MJ12 and 'fell in love'. Paul was born, and after extended cloning trials JC was born (JC is technically a twin brother of Paul).

- JCD has relatives, namely the scientists and Paul.

- JCD only "sacrifices" himself in one of the endings, again, arguably. I doubt Bob Page would've seen merging with the AI as a sacrifice...

I agree that a biblical interpretation on the story must be hunted before found. I just think that a religious theme is one that is ingrained into the DX storyline; whether the gamer feels they want to read that far into it is up to them.

Bob page merging with Helios is nothing to do with sacrifice, JC's merging (which are canon i.e. the "real" ending) is sacrificial because he gives up a human consciousness in order to be bonded with the AI, for the good of all humanity.


...Helios is not a deity. An intelligent superorganism? Perhaps...

If Helios does not at least metaphorically fill the role of a god, then what does? Having gained access to all human communications, he is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.


Jesus Christ, Denton!

Very shrewd ;)