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Nikkolas
16th May 2008, 05:57
Kain somehow defeats The Elder God and thus can free Nosgoth from its' real cancer....

What happens next? I'd expect time itself would completely unravel. The EG has been a part of history in Nosgoth as long as we know. Would the whole world just reboot?

And say time goesn't go all haywire, what will Kain do? Make a new empire?

mort
16th May 2008, 15:25
ah, the point at the end is that kain hasnt yet saved the world or killed EG.

and i think the same would happen as it did with william, time would change to make up for the change.

Nikkolas
16th May 2008, 16:54
I know he hasn't killed it yet. I was just asking if he did.

And the EG seem sa bit more important in time than William.

mort
16th May 2008, 17:16
sorry i miss read what oyu ment :)

true he is more important but then again kains whole aim it in effect to restore the land, this would be just as big an imapct as the death of the EG.

Kazame
17th May 2008, 00:46
I think to answer this question is impossible, because we do not know exactly what EG is. Is he the hub of the wheel by which the world turns, or a parasite to it? If the latter, then I think, yes, EG is no more important than William. I think the world can live without him, without reshuffling history, and lets not forget that EG is not nessesarily "beyond time" as he makes raziel believe. Just because he is omniscient beyond time does not render him any different than moebius, and they both have reputations for deceit.

Sayid
17th May 2008, 04:06
What happens next?
Grow a sexy dark mane and join de iraki army.

mort
17th May 2008, 07:28
I think to answer this question is impossible, because we do not know exactly what EG is. Is he the hub of the wheel by which the world turns, or a parasite to it? If the latter, then I think, yes, EG is no more important than William. I think the world can live without him, without reshuffling history, and lets not forget that EG is not nessesarily "beyond time" as he makes raziel believe. Just because he is omniscient beyond time does not render him any different than moebius, and they both have reputations for deceit.

lets look at it this way, whats to say that the scewin(spl) ie, his main comertition are any different than him? after all he was the one that said that when they eat souls, thats it, the soul cant be used again. just because he tells you thats what happens isnt to say that its true, seen as he's lied about most other things.

Nikkolas
17th May 2008, 08:08
But it's still true that without the EG, the war between the Ancients and The Hylden never would have happened. There'd be no Sarafan to rip the Heart of Darkness from janos and make Kain.
Basically everything we know about Nosgoth involves the EG in some way.

Balance_Reaver
17th May 2008, 15:12
But it's still true that without the EG, the war between the Ancients and The Hylden never would have happened. There'd be no Sarafan to rip the Heart of Darkness from janos and make Kain.
Basically everything we know about Nosgoth involves the EG in some way.
Yes, it's true, but it doesn't mean that the Elder God is exist outside time. From what I saw in Defiance and what was planned, EG exist in time. Why? Because a) he didn't foresee Kain's return and b) Kain was originally meant to kill EG in future after events of LoK: SR.

fneh
17th May 2008, 18:39
easy: The hylden return and say a big fat "i told you so" to everyone that worshipped squiddy and the ancients don't take kindly to this and go to war in the name of their fallen (false) god's vengence.

the hylden want to kill kain because he's a vampire. and well; he's kain

the ancients want to kill kain because he killed their god. and well; he's kain

mort
22nd May 2008, 11:08
But it's still true that without the EG, the war between the Ancients and The Hylden never would have happened. There'd be no Sarafan to rip the Heart of Darkness from janos and make Kain.
Basically everything we know about Nosgoth involves the EG in some way.

as my example with william, the events simply wouldnt take place and other things would have happened.

but whats to say it will be done before the war? after all if he killed him it wouldnt remove him from history, just the future after that point.

dumah's wraith
23rd May 2008, 21:39
But it's still true that without the EG, the war between the Ancients and The Hylden never would have happened. There'd be no Sarafan to rip the Heart of Darkness from janos and make Kain.
Basically everything we know about Nosgoth involves the EG in some way.

So just kill him after SR1

Kazame
23rd May 2008, 23:04
that's only if you can restore the pillars centuries after they have shattered. If not, then EG would have to be killed prior to the BO era, which would change tons and tons of things about the flow of history. I don't think Amy Hennig is up to it, quite honestly =-/

dumah's wraith
30th May 2008, 19:00
She isn't with Eidos any more.

Anyway, if they want to write that the pillars can be restored centuries after they are corrupted, they will. (Assuming another game is made, of course). They can write whatever they like as long as it doesn't directly contradict what we already know-and with timelines, even that isn't impossible.

fneh
30th Jun 2008, 03:29
She isn't with Eidos any more.

Anyway, if they want to write that the pillars can be restored centuries after they are corrupted, they will. (Assuming another game is made, of course). They can write whatever they like as long as it doesn't directly contradict what we already know-and with timelines, even that isn't impossible.



Pretty much every game released contradicts the last so if they made another I wouldn't expect anything to change there.

The_Hylden
30th Jun 2008, 19:13
Contradicts, how, when? Specifics, please, or else it's just a general slander of the games.

Or, excuse me: in print, it's libel:p

fneh
5th Jul 2008, 12:53
Contradicts, how, when? Specifics, please, or else it's just a general slander of the games.

Or, excuse me: in print, it's libel:p


slander? :lol: Dude, it's a videogame...


well we can start with the fact that kain's choice in BO1 damning the pillars not ACTUALLY being the big squid like thing that really pulled them down?

or that vampires were some elegant race and not a cancer on the flow of life..

or the sci fi elements in BO2

or just the events of BO2 AT ALL

or maybe Vorador being alive in BO2

moeby growing back his head after kain cut it off

the introduction of the hylden - odd that in the SR future nosgoth is totally dead yet the hylden aren't there isn't it? in definace they learned how to enter nosgoth through the bodies of the dead, and the pillars were standing then.. the pillars were fallen for centuries yet no hylden... just devolved vampires and dead land

ariel leaving the pillars in defiance that she's apparently bound to

Kain making a paradox to twin raziel's soul "both inside and outside the reaver blade" to forge the reaver at the end of SR2 and yet in defiance that didn't really happen at all - kain just saved him.

turel's appearance in defiance

Raziel loosing all his abilities for no reason each game (HOW MANY TIMES must he imbue the reaver??)

Raziel going from being a hero to a martyr when we all know how selfish he was

The introduction of the scion of balance - yeah, so kain damned the world but wait.... that was supposed to happen cos he's some foretold scion... strange that ariel wanted him dead so much then isn't it if she knew that all along.


I realise you're gonna have some righteous fanboy answer for all these points of course and try to make out they didn't change the story structure between -every- game (because obviously, ms henning decided half way through the first SR game that she wanted to scrap the whole killing kain idea and intruduce time travel over 2 more games, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that the game was forced to be released incomplete because it had already been delayed 18 months). I'm hoping you don't say something along the lines of "well that's not been revealed yet" when we all know lok reached its end.

dragonfly2
5th Jul 2008, 19:29
ariel leaving the pillars in defiance that she's apparently bound to



Actually I believe that she came from the future of Nosgoth not the present time of BO because that would cause a paradox if she came from the present. Don't forget she and other balance gardians were all summoned to this moment. We only see Ariel because she's more familiar to Raziel. Anyways thats my theory :D.

The_Hylden
5th Jul 2008, 22:09
slander? Dude, it's a videogame...

If you say false things about a product, you're slandering the product. But, it doesn't matter because it's a video game? Come on.

Now, let me correct these examples you've given...


well we can start with the fact that kain's choice in BO1 damning the pillars not ACTUALLY being the big squid like thing that really pulled them down?

It was always Kain's choice that damned The Pillars. Raziel in SR2 simply sees, from his vantage point, one of the EG's tentacles on one of the ruined Pillars and makes a comment about it. That comment is, "One would think you tore down The Pillars singlehandedly." At that point in the game, it's quite obvious that Raziel doesn't trust the EG, nor anyone, for that matter, and so voicing his suspicions about things "Rarely being what they seem" is NOT him stating that the EG pulled down the Pillars. Nor, if you've played the series up until that point, and Defiance after, should you conclude that Raziel's suspicion would be correct. Furthermore, when this scene happens in SR2, it's 100 years after The Pillars have already been destroyed. It has always been stated Kain's choice destroyed The Pillars.


or the sci fi elements in BO2

The "Sci-Fi" elements we know in hind sight were due to the game originally having different concepts and not starting out to be an LoK game. However, the Hylden that are attributed to these elements were always stated to be technologically more influenced than either Humans, or the Ancients. Plus, they still power their machines using Glyph magic. Visually, it's a contrast, and you can say a contradiction to the world of Nosgoth before it, sure. However, SR1's post-industrial Road Warrior-esque post-apocalyptic Nosgoth is also far in contrast to the original medieval fantasy, magical world of Nosgoth. SR1 still gave us some of the elements of the original magic in Glyphs and nods to locations, just as BO2 gives us some of those elements in the Hylden's Glyph magic and a map showing The Pillars and north of them, though the game takes place south of anywhere we've ever been before in the games. But, you should be able to see that both games, technically, are contradicting the original concept. They get away with it by advancing the world so far in time. Thousands of years later for SR1, and almost half a millennium for BO2. BO2, then, can fit in between the world of SR1 and its medieval predecessor. It then all comes down to aesthetics of the person whether, or not, you will go with it for each...


or just the events of BO2 AT ALL

While, granted, the story isn't as good as in the rest of the games, it's really no different than the changes in BO1 that happen once the timeline alters and Kain returns to that game's present. Another, more drastic paradox occurs at the end of SR2, which forces events to alter and gives us BO2's events. This actually doesn't contradict the original Blood Omen story, as first of all, it falls right in line with the same rules BO1 established of the possibility to alter time slightly when two Reavers converge, and it also shows us part of the timeline we've never seen in any of the other games before, so it can't possibly contradict the other games in that sense.


or maybe Vorador being alive in BO2

This is the first thing anyone can latch onto as being an easy thing to point out as a contradiction. It's easy simply because the explanation for it was left out of Defiance and slated for the final game, which is yet to be. However, with vampires' ability to be resurrected already shown, this isn't such a hard thing to eventually have an explanation for and while it would possibly have been best were he to not have been in BO2, he is, and coming up with a reason why is simple, but just needs to be shown, or else people get upset. It's a contradiction as it stands. However, one day, it might not be anymore.


moeby growing back his head after kain cut it off

How is this a contradiction, when you are told in that very game of Defiance that his master, the EG, can grant him life again? Does it contradict in a story when someone is stated to be able to come back from the dead, and they in fact do? When you are told the reason why they can? No.


the introduction of the hylden - odd that in the SR future nosgoth is totally dead yet the hylden aren't there isn't it? in definace they learned how to enter nosgoth through the bodies of the dead, and the pillars were standing then.. the pillars were fallen for centuries yet no hylden... just devolved vampires and dead land

Their great and only hope for massing their forces to invade Nosgoth again was their Hylden gate, which needed to be powered by the "blood of their enemy" in an Ancient -- Janos. You're told that right there in Defiance and it plays out in BO2, with Kain destroying that gate and sending them all back to the Demon Dimension, sans their bodies. While some could pass through the world as souls and possess both the dead and the living in Defiance, that wasn't the bulk of their forces. To assemble their armies to take over Nosgoth, they still needed the gate. A few possessions here and there afterwards wouldn't do much for them, so it looks like they stopped. Their great plan for reentry of Nosgoth was thwarted by Kain and their great leader, the Hylden Lord, was destroyed by Kain. So, thus, no more Hylden in SR1's era ... until they decide to possess Turel before he's brought back through time.


ariel leaving the pillars in defiance that she's apparently bound to

I'll add in dragonfly2's reply:


Actually I believe that she came from the future of Nosgoth not the present time of BO because that would cause a paradox if she came from the present. Don't forget she and other balance gardians were all summoned to this moment. We only see Ariel because she's more familiar to Raziel. Anyways thats my theory

It's not only a theory, but confirmed that's where she came from by the creators. She was summoned, by the Spirit Forge which was built also by the same beings that built the Pillars, back to it once it was activated. No contradiction there, as her younger self in all of the time periods we see is still bound to the Pillars then. While it's not specifically stated by Ariel that this is the when she came from, it looks like those following the story and using their noodles deduce the when on their own. As dragonfly2, and many others, are examples.


Kain making a paradox to twin raziel's soul "both inside and outside the reaver blade" to forge the reaver at the end of SR2 and yet in defiance that didn't really happen at all - kain just saved him.

First, Kain didn't just save him in Defiance. Raziel goes into the blade... Second, as I have stated before, the paradox comes from two Raziels, with the ability to reave souls, and therefore, possibly their own, and post his remaking of course to have free will, coming together and potentially reaving themselves. It's their unpredictability that time can't account for, causing the paradoxical moment, and allowing choices to be made that alter time. Raziel, however, willingly already chooses to go into the blade at the end of Defiance, before the blade even enters him. So, he's not fighting his future self and his future self -- the Wraith Blade -- is only trying to get itself made. Neither is fighting the other, thus, no paradox. Also, no contradiction.


turel's appearance in defiance

How is that possibly a contradiction? Turel is brought form the future to Nosgoth's past, always had been, to be the being Mortanius and the worshipers would refer to as Hash'ak'gik. What is that contradicting? The only thing that stems off of this that you can say is a change is that Hash was originally the demon that grew out of Mortanius, but then Amy Hennig changed it to the Hylden Lord.


Raziel loosing all his abilities for no reason each game (HOW MANY TIMES must he imbue the reaver??)

This contradicts what? He only imbues it with fire in SR1, which is a temporary forging that he needs to find an open flame again to re-imbue it. In SR2, he comes across forges to imbue it with more, and a better fire forge -- one that works on the elemental dais by the Sarafan Keep -- but still, those are all temporary forges. The EG destroys all of the forge basins by the time Defiance begins, so Raziel has to find other forges to use the elemental-locked doors in the area and progress. He finds the Ancients did build permanent forges, made from spirits of their own people, no less. Now, the blade is permanently forged with each element -- all elements -- preparing it for the final "baptism of the blade" in the Spirit Forge.


Raziel going from being a hero to a martyr when we all know how selfish he was

lol, it's called character arc, character growth. Raziel took 3 games, searching for a way out of his fate, before finally accepting that he could do more to help stop the nightmare of the EG and his minions by accepting his role than by fighting it. Him being selfish and defying that fate forever wouldn't help anyone, certainly not him in the end, and he realized this. His choice was to go on in Spectral forever as that horrible, destroyed version of himself, feeding on souls, defying time and destiny, or to choose to accept it, but also try and make sure that Kain had the power in his arsenal to stop the being Raziel grew to hate worse than Kain -- the EG. Now, Raziel can be selfish all day long, but he also isn't selfish without reason. Because he chooses to become a martyr, as you say, over existing in his own Hell for the rest of eternity, doesn't sound to me like a bad thing to put in the game for him. It's not contradicting anything to show other sides to him that he grows over time, one being tired of being manipulated, tired of going on and on in this pointless existence, and feeling helpless to do anything about it. He realized the only thing he could do, and he did it.


The introduction of the scion of balance - yeah, so kain damned the world but wait.... that was supposed to happen cos he's some foretold scion... strange that ariel wanted him dead so much then isn't it if she knew that all along.

Ariel didn't know that at all. She only finds this out when her future self is drawn back to the Spirit Forge and "united with the souls of [her] predecessors." Kain doesn't know it when he damns The Pillars, and only finds out through bits of the prophecy centuries later. He wasn't supposed to damn the world in order to fulfill the prophecy. That fate was orchestrated differently than anyone could foresee, with the introduction of the paradox that forced Kain's hand at the end of BO1. However, Kain was always the Scion, and he's alive, so perhaps, now that other shifts in time have happened, his destiny will be to right the world and stop the forces manipulating its destruction. Maybe it isn't. Contradiction? It's only an addition to the story we didn't know until Defiance, but it doesn't contradict anything.


I realise you're gonna have some righteous fanboy answer for all these points of course and try to make out they didn't change the story structure between -every- game

Well, my "fanboy" answers are only the truth you've conveniently not paid attention to in the storylines. My points are true, not excuses made up by a fanboy. You can choose to think of them that way, if you must, but it doesn't make them so.


(because obviously, ms henning decided half way through the first SR game that she wanted to scrap the whole killing kain idea and intruduce time travel over 2 more games, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that the game was forced to be released incomplete because it had already been delayed 18 months).

You know, over the years, how may times have you brought up that the poor original storyline of SR1 never happened? Boo hoo. Look, every game, every movie, every book, or I should say mostly every one of them, will undergo changes before the final version reaches us. Some are far more drastic than the changes in SR1. The story wasn't simply made more convoluted because they couldn't tell what they wanted to tell. In fact, Hennig has stated she never viewed Kain as an evil villain, so once they knew they couldn't tell the original story, she came up with a better version to paint him as what she wanted anyway, and made a far more engaging storyline that spans time, and yes, two more games. If we go back and pout over every change that ever happened in any media before we saw/read/played it, we'd barely have anything at all to watch, read, or enjoy playing. Rewrites, deletions, changes, happen all. Of. The. Time. I know you think SR1 was bastardized because of the changes, but there are tons of others who find that the changes were for the better and made a far better product in the end. I also think it's clear that your wish for that game to have remained as it was found out to be originally, has made you quite close-minded about the rest of the series. Your criticisms of it are proof to me, anyway, as most aren't valid, are factually wrong, etc.


I'm hoping you don't say something along the lines of "well that's not been revealed yet" when we all know lok reached its end.

Given how long it's taken for many other series to get sequels, be they movies, video games, or even books, I will not agree that LoK has definitively reached its end. If, by the time I am old and gray, we still have no more LoK, it still won't have, as anyone can then look back, find this great series, and publish a new addition. That's if we live that long as a world:p But, that's being drastic, of course. I am certain that, and it might take years, we'll get an ending eventually, by a writer who understands the world of Nosgoth and Kain, especially. Whether, or not, that's to everyone's approval, well, that will remain to be seen.

Wow, I haven't written a long post like this in a while...

Binky24
6th Jul 2008, 08:56
Forsooth. That's because fneh hasn't annoyed you in a while, I daresay.

Frankly, fneh, there are some contradictions in the games. Moebius' being alive in Defiance would have been perfectly fine, for the reasons the Hylden has posted; it's his 'I have an execution to oversee' line that's the trouble, because it heavily implies that Vorador is still alive and his execution hasn't happened while it clearly has - and the development team acknowledged this as a plot hole. Kain's utter horror at the end of SR2 strikes me as odd; we know, after all, that he actually defeated the Hylden in BO2! And I don't quite like the existence of the Archons in Defiance, myself, since they make Raziel much less special, and haven't really been explained beyond, 'oh, and here's a new type of enemy' (which is totally not like SR1's Vampire Wraith that went missing in SR2, no sirrah).

But much of what you've written are the peeves of a disappointed fanboy. Soul Reaver has been that way for nine years now. Isn't it beyond time to stop complaining about a story that, as you've written yourself, is beyond dead, and move on?

Now, I like the story. I'm perfectly allowed to wallow in the warm mud of denial and hope that it'll be resurrected. :P

/Although... egads. Bethesda is resurrecting Fallout as an Oblivion with guns. A shooter. They are turning one of the finest choices-and-consequences RPG's out there into a next-gen shooter. If that's what the world is coming to, then I'm perfectly fine with fanfic - mine, dumah's wraith's, whoever's - as the last LoK./

RainaAudron
6th Jul 2008, 09:47
And I don't quite like the existence of the Archons in Defiance, myself, since they make Raziel much less special, and haven't really been explained beyond, 'oh, and here's a new type of enemy' (which is totally not like SR1's Vampire Wraith that went missing in SR2, no sirrah).

archons were quite annoying, I admit, and their existence wasn´t quite explained...

However, there weren´t any vampire wraiths in SR2 because there weren´t any vampires raised by necromancy. Those dead seen in SR2 were all turned by Vorador. Only a necromantic vampire can be ressurected again.

dragonfly2
6th Jul 2008, 12:42
Umm isn't the archons like walking zombies anyways ? Only Raziel pointed out the fact they come into the matterial realm the same way as him. In Blood Omen there's been plenty zombies walking about making Kains life miserable and some of them were pretty hard to kill till Kain finds the flaming sword and toasts them. Oh and don't forget that Kain found a book in the library of Wilindor that talks about people being possessed by some entities.

Binky24
6th Jul 2008, 17:11
dragonfly2, you are thinking of Hylden-possessed corpses. Archons are those weird things in Spectral which either wear robes and fly or walk but look like giant -- crabs, I guess? Evil Crabs. Those that suck life out of Raziel, like VW's and you have to hit them to stop, like VW's. And they are supposed to be Eggy's servants, except that we haven't seen a whiff of them before.

Also - Raina, see? Here's precisely why I don't like it:

We now know that it's untrue that only a necromantic vampire can be resurrected again - Janos has, Vorador probably has/will have, and the dead tomb guardians in Defiance also look like Vampire Wraiths. And there's the whole 'being unchained from the WoF' stuff, which, if the Hylden were as sadistically inclined as they should, would mean being chained to your body forever, also in the afterlife. (A nasty surprise for the Ancients who killed themselves, there!)

So, I could easily swallow an, 'actually, these are degenerate vampire souls, and that's untrue that only necromantic vampires' souls are tied to their bodies, but in SR2 Raziel was working for Eggy, so he wasn't allowed to see an Archon and know that' (however EG would have accomplished that), if only because that would pave the way for future vampire resurrection en masse - but Raziel just claims out of Spectral blue that they are 'EG's agents.' And something he would become. So, I'm - wtf? How does he know? How are they working for EG?

The_Hylden
6th Jul 2008, 20:50
Forsooth. That's because fneh hasn't annoyed you in a while, I daresay.

Balderdash!:p

And yes, that moment when Raziel comes back and there's Moebius is a scene admitted to us by the creators as a mistake. It's cool they did so, as they didn't have to. They could have chalked it up to another illusion by the Timestreamer, if they wanted.


Kain's utter horror at the end of SR2 strikes me as odd; we know, after all, that he actually defeated the Hylden in BO2!

Yes, I tend to think that it must have more to do with Janos' plight of being tossed into the Demon Dimension by the Hylden Lord than the Hylden coming back. In fact, they carry that thru-line into Defiance that Kain must stop Raziel from retrieving the Heart of Darkness because Kain "...cannot allow Janos to be raised." I imagine that Kain, unbeknown to us, has found something that Janos would be key in helping him with in regards to saving Nosgoth, or that placing him into the hands of the Hylden prevents him restoring this world, in some way (then we could get to Kain traveling to the Demon Dimension to save him in the next installment, like others have written about). It would be implied his younger self finds out whatever the problem with Janos' exiling is in the time after BO2 and before SR1.

As far as the Archons, while they are similar in that they feed the EG souls and they are bluish in nature, like Raziel, his is still the unique creation -- and by far the strongest one, of course, both physically and mentally -- as Raziel retains his mind, retains his own mental image of himself, and of course, possesses free will. While the back story for the Archons wasn't explained, we have been told by the EG that he has many servants before Defiance, other than just Moebius, or Raziel, so these Archons fit in with a glimpse of them in some way. It would be interesting if these Archons were willing sacrifices to the EG long ago that his devoted followers would be charged to give up to him, like the Mayan Sacrifices of first born, and such. And these devoted souls eventually became his soul-hunters in Spectral. Something like that. We may not ever know, though it would be interesting if Kain, let's say, comes across descendants of these followers, or travels to a time when they are alive and kicking, and sees the groundwork for the EG's Archons mentioned, perhaps in a mural, depicting a being of bluish hue that is more Angelic-looking than the Archons, or more divine-looking. The Archons, themselves, remind me of fish -- the floating ones -- with their fins and bodies. Not fish, per-say, but some type of aquatic thing, like a cross between a shark and a sting ray. Then, yes, the other crustacean ones later on are the non-flying type.

Binky24
7th Jul 2008, 07:36
Ooh. This Archon idea is actually quite nice, The Hylden! Although I still prefer my, 'these are actually dead vampires, and that about the servants was one last lie by EG'. Mostly because I could see this as a plot point - all it would take would be Kain's resurrecting the Ancient vamps - while a whole subplot about willing sacrifices... not. ;)


I imagine that Kain, unbeknown to us, has found something that Janos would be key in helping him with in regards to saving Nosgoth, or that placing him into the hands of the Hylden prevents him restoring this world, in some way (then we could get to Kain traveling to the Demon Dimension to save him in the next installment, like others have written about). It would be implied his younger self finds out whatever the problem with Janos' exiling is in the time after BO2 and before SR1.
Ehh... You see... This one, I don't like mostly because Old Kain, even in Defiance, with his changed memories, doesn't know where the Heart of Darkness is. Doesn't even care about it. It feels like Kain, in spite of seeing the guy alive and tossed into a demon dimension, in spite of having had millennia to do so, didn't do his homework on Janos Audron properly!

So, I prefer the more general explanation of, 'Kain does not like that the Hylden now have a vampire to test new weapons on'. Or maybe to try and bring down the immune barrier of the Pillars from the outside. Or some such. Iow, I don't like to consider the issue in greater detail than - he prefers Janos dead rather than in the hands of his enemy...

The_Hylden
7th Jul 2008, 16:24
Ehh... You see... This one, I don't like mostly because Old Kain, even in Defiance, with his changed memories, doesn't know where the Heart of Darkness is. Doesn't even care about it. It feels like Kain, in spite of seeing the guy alive and tossed into a demon dimension, in spite of having had millennia to do so, didn't do his homework on Janos Audron properly!

Well, he knew what everyone knew, that the heart was kept in Avernus (since everyone was told the same lie). That's why he takes up the EG on his offer to bring him to a time where he can stop Raziel. And yes, that was what I was referring to: Kain wanting Janos to stay dead, rather than be raised and fall into the Hylden's hands, for whatever untold reasons. He never looked for the heart before because he had no reason to raise Janos, I suppose, and afterwards no-one would know who raised him in the first place as no-one was there at the raising, save Janos and Raziel. Not to mention Avernus falls in flames as Nosgoth is damned, so his younger self would have nothing to find out in the ruins there about who might have come for the heart. lol, no-one's left alive by either Kain, or Raziel, in their multiple trips there either.

And, Kain also needs Raziel to change anything, so he can't simply go find out what happened and make it right again, even if there would be information to find.

RainaAudron
8th Jul 2008, 10:55
I agree with the Hylden, I don´t think Kain´s reaction was to to the Hylden being brought back to Nosgoth, although for a short period of time, because he defeated them in the end...There must be something more to this...I think that Kain looking for Janos in the Demon Dimension would be a good idea. If there are any guardians born again, Kain needs Janos to turn them to vampires because if he tried to kill them and raise through necromancy, there will be new human guardians chosen again after the deaths of those previous, and thus it will be impossible to make any new vampire guardians.

The_Hylden
8th Jul 2008, 17:11
Well, as far as that goes, the Pillars would have to be returned to a working order to call Guardians also; and, as we know, they've been pretty much laid to waste, as it stands now.

Binky24
9th Jul 2008, 17:29
Kain's shopping list:

get Janos Audron out of Demon Dimension
restore Pillars to Nosgoth
destroy the Elder God
figure out who killed Vorador, and if it was me
figure out who killed the Seer, and if it was me


What else?

dumah's wraith
21st Jul 2008, 19:17
Kain's shopping list:

get Janos Audron out of Demon Dimension
restore Pillars to Nosgoth
destroy the Elder God
figure out who killed Vorador, and if it was me
figure out who killed the Seer, and if it was me


What else?

-Stay alive.
The Seer was probably sucked back into the demon dimension with the rest of the Hylden. Vorador was probably killed by Kain.

fneh
23rd Jul 2008, 13:15
a few new circle members would be pretty helpful..

I call nature!!! :P

Linikratyo
18th Aug 2008, 14:59
well, about the EG..... it would probably impossible to kill him if he lived outside the timestream....... If he then would be killed then the complete history ends up being rewritten........ which you will be able to call a paradox................... and we all know History Abhorbs a Paradox....
:D

I like those ideas of Janos. :D

I think the seer would rather be a half-Hylden/Vampire (look at her teeth!! (and she has the dark gift of TK!!):scratch:) She also owns Vorador a favor...................... What is it??? :scratch:

Lore Keeper
18th Aug 2008, 20:26
She also owns Vorador a favor...................... What is it??? :scratch: Oh.... you know...

Linikratyo
19th Aug 2008, 12:56
Oh.... you know...

no, I don't really know....... :D

dumah's wraith
22nd Aug 2008, 22:22
So, I could easily swallow an, 'actually, these are degenerate vampire souls, and that's untrue that only necromantic vampires' souls are tied to their bodies, but in SR2 Raziel was working for Eggy, so he wasn't allowed to see an Archon and know that' (however EG would have accomplished that), if only because that would pave the way for future vampire resurrection en masse - but Raziel just claims out of Spectral blue that they are 'EG's agents.' And something he would become. So, I'm - wtf? How does he know? How are they working for EG?

Remember, he's just spent 500 years at least locked in that room chatting with EG. Maybe to get him to serve him again during that time EG showed him one and threatened him with it.

The_Hylden
24th Aug 2008, 21:46
No, I don't think so. He was totally surprised that 500 years had passed, number one. Time in Spectral passes differently. And, the way he mentioned the Archons, it did seem that this was the first time he had come across one. Even though I do believe he is stating things from the time right before he goes into the sword in the V.O., you can still get from how he tells things the emotion/feelings he had when they were going on.