PDA

View Full Version : Now where did I leave my PIN?



Voltaire
11th May 2008, 12:06
Did anybody else feel that the amount of codes and passwords left lying around in data-cubes was wildly unrealistic?

Since when did anyone believe that you could bring a militaristic-top-secret-research base to its knees by simply reading these insecure little notes left around so casually? I mean, its believable up to the point where a grunt might leave a code to a door in his locker, but the fact that an agent can simply bypass a building packed with state of the art defense technology by casually reading post-its just doesn't scan with me.

Just a thought.

GruntOwner
11th May 2008, 12:42
They assume that they won't be dealing with anyone for the immediate future. If you were an MJ12 trooper, and your backup consisted of commandos, several security bots and automated turret grids, it isn't going to matter what stories you've heard about the guy, this "JC" fellow with the coat who went missing from his cell/cleared out one of your bases according to rumours, isn't going to stand a chance. As far as you can tell. Having a military bot stomping around campus will fill you wtih a surprising mount of confidence.

gamer0004
11th May 2008, 13:09
Yes, but it was too much. I'd like to have more different options. Like reading what a guy types or hearing him say it while he types it. Many people do that.

Chemix
11th May 2008, 14:34
thing is, what soldier is about to walk up to an atm to get some cash when they are on guard? also, it's going to be rather hard for the player to remember unless it's autocopied to conversations or notes.

jordan_a
11th May 2008, 14:54
Voltaire I do agree that video games are not difficult enough.

Fen
11th May 2008, 15:37
Well it was a balance issue. They needed a way for the guy whos gone and wasted all his multitools, doesnt have the hacking skill and has pissed off a vital character to still be able to advance in the game.

I am also hoping they can be a little more creative this time round

gamer0004
11th May 2008, 15:48
All those passwords are necessary in order to make a no-item no-skill no-augs run possible :)

serene_chaos
11th May 2008, 16:11
Well it was a balance issue. They needed a way for the guy whos gone and wasted all his multitools, doesnt have the hacking skill and has pissed off a vital character to still be able to advance in the game.

I am also hoping they can be a little more creative this time round

Those very same hi-tech multitools that he found in a dumpster, among some empty cardboard boxes and packets of soy food.

Voltaire
11th May 2008, 16:18
All those passwords are necessary in order to make a no-item no-skill no-augs run possible :)

By no means should no-item runs not be do-able. And the game should be completable without hacking etc.


Well it was a balance issue. They needed a way for the guy whos gone and wasted all his multitools, doesnt have the hacking skill and has pissed off a vital character to still be able to advance in the game.

I am also hoping they can be a little more creative this time round

This is it. They need more ways to convey passwords/codes.

Necros
11th May 2008, 16:20
I am also hoping they can be a little more creative this time round
I don't think there was a problem with their creativity and it wasn't solely a balancing issue either. They had a limited amount of time and there were already tons of other things in the game already, so they had to keep some things simple.

mad_red
12th May 2008, 13:12
Well, I do think finding a nanotech multi-tool or a lockpick in the rubbish bin comes off as a bit careless...

But as for codes and stuff: unfortunately, that's all too realistic.

There are regular news reports about laptops, memory sticks, documents, etc. etc., all with sensitive or secret information, being lost missing from government agencies, police stations, etc. I've seen more than a few news articles on this subject, from different countries too: US, UK, Netherlands. I'm sure there's more that I haven't read about.

Okay. It's an over-used gimmick. But it if you start thinking about it, you'll find you don't really need to stretch your imagination that much.

Larington
12th May 2008, 19:40
Theres been a lot of buzz in the UK press during the last few months about missing data, in one case a disc with around 20 million peoples details for paying child benefits (So it had bank account details) got lost in the post... The real comedy, yes it was passworded, but bizarely it wasn't encrypted.

Then theres laptops used by military staff that have been stolen from cars. In short, people can be stupid.

That said, I do understand the frustration, since a lot of this information was gained from the same method (Data cubes left lying about) rather than a range of different sources (Such as a laptop of the back of a truck)...

In fact, we could have a brain storming session right here - Creative ways for stumbling upon data that shouldn't be publicly available (Including but not just password/login details).

jcp28
12th May 2008, 21:11
Well, thinking of DX1, you could have codes and passwords scribbles in books. Or maybe you could steal some guy's laptop while infiltrating a base. Or else just steal some other belongings where a code might be scribbled. Also, you could bribe a guard for the info. It would have to be a small one, since it'd be better if the player didn't have to go through credits so fast. Or if you could grab a patrolling guard, and force him to reveal information, that would also add some variety. But we need to keep gameplay variety, so the amount of multitools and lockpicks you can pick up at one time should be increased for pretty much everywhere you can find them. Although that might make things too easy for some, but hopefully, you would have to go out of the way to find these multitools and lockpicks.

DXeXodus
13th May 2008, 04:43
Hey, I'm just glad that DX1 had datacubes with information on them. DX2 didn't even have that, let alone slightly unrealistic text within them.

It could be done a bit more creatively I suppose. Perhaps (assuming datacubes are like min computers or PDA's in a sense) an agent can read a datacube, but depending on his computer skill will only receive a certain amount of information. The person making the data entry would put the confidential information in an encrypted format or it could be password protected. Thus creating layers of information in the game. Just an idea :)

This makes it a bit more realistic, in the sense that people would place highly important info under more stringent protection. Therefore you have to be better with the computer skill or you will have to get the code from them somehow :scratch:

mad_red
13th May 2008, 10:38
Initializing Brain-Weather modification implant...


Datacubes now and then are ok. Just - not always the same way. Maybe some of them are "misplaced", or behind locks.

I loved it how you could guess the password sometimes, in the original Deux Ex. The police station in HK, and that password derived from the book. More of that would be cool. Just not as the ONLY method.

How about the infrared implant reading residual body heat, allowing you to see the last used keycode. At higher levels - longer times after last use. Keyboards wouldn't work this way though, but doors and ATM keypads could.

And in case it's a sequel... MIND READING! Higher levels: MIND CONTROL! Can you say A-W-E-S-O-M-E?!

Whole new way for a stealth playing style. Simple mind-scrambling can even be included if it's a sequel. The latter won't give you any passwords though.

I think the hacking skill should also find passcodes to doors. Higher skill = more digits hackable.

Using a computer to intercept ATM transactions elsewhere in the level. Low level hacking -> high level hacking: discover the password -> discover the ATM location -> redirect money from other transactions to a new account and withdraw at your leisure.

Hack an ATM to set a money trap / password trap. Come back later and to collect the goods.


Write a letter posing as a Nigerian banker and, err...
I've run out of ideas. Stabilizing Brain-Weather. Shut down complete.

Voltaire
13th May 2008, 15:11
Yeah, I seem to remember a game where you coat the keys on a keypad with oil or invisink, and derive the code from the buttons disturbed. And if there was a residual heat detection AUG as well, it would diversify the methods of obtaining the code. Cool.

LOL at mad_red's fonejacker reference :lol:

Fen
14th May 2008, 13:29
How about the infrared implant reading residual body heat, allowing you to see the last used keycode. At higher levels - longer times after last use. Keyboards wouldn't work this way though, but doors and ATM keypads could.


Love the infrared idea.

Larington
19th May 2008, 18:54
If NPCs were coded to use keypads (And even keyboards) properly, you could also do over the shoulder keycode stealing.

HouseOfPain
19th May 2008, 23:10
If NPCs were coded to use keypads (And even keyboards) properly, you could also do over the shoulder keycode stealing.

Good Idea.:D

Blade_hunter
20th May 2008, 00:27
I think the datacubes are useful but other means to obtain a password can be most of times a better option.
In the DX's games we have the paper/books, the famous datacubes, the computers, some NPC's that wants to help you our when you give them a service they gives you the code.

I think to take data disks, and other electronic devices like an USB key can be a good alternate choice, some coded texts can be an other way, Use an enemy to take a code or use him for a retinal scan or use him to put his finger in a fingerprint scan device, a biomod can be used for this task, and more :D (this biomod will copy fingerprints and retinal form and color it can copy the voice too)
Some mails and boxes can contain precious informations and we can imagine a good way to decrypt the code
Find a decryption software can be a good manner to find some codes from encrypted mails and messages.

To add more kind of visions we can choose
Infrared (as mentioned)
Nightvision
X-rays
A vision amplification (the vision amplification isn't the same as DX 1 it's a real function that allows to see far away or very small details like using a magnifying glass with more power)

Sometimes Hacking is a good alternate way, but if we have several manners to hack it can be a serious advantage ore make a sabotage can be useful and allows more strategy's that can uses our reflexes etc.

I don't think the difficulty must be upgraded but the number of means to obtain what we want must be upgraded and with some new strategy's

For example sometimes find some encrypted notes can be easy, but find the mean to decrypt the message can be harder and if sometimes we must compare the note and the encryption method it can be a realistic manner to use it or if someone thinks it's too hard or useless we can do the next thing, if we find an encrypted note and the mean to decrypt the note it makes the note decrypted ....

An other idea if a paper is reduced on pieces and we must find some pieces to reconstitute the note it can be fun but perhaps some guys here are against puzzles ...

We can combine some means to make it harder; use some triggers to make a specific action can be an other mean to open a door or accomplish a part of a mission.

I think each way must be explored

Sean D
10th May 2009, 22:44
On the main subject...
I used to be sysadmin for a severely secret company. Security (excluding a few things, lol) almost as cool as military. You wouldn't BELIEVE how many passwords are just lying around! People are being NOTIFIED in various ways not to store them under their keyboard or stickered underside the table. Yet still everytime you come to fix someone's problems, you find a password written on a piece of paper and stored in an obvious location. I think it's quite natural that the passwords are lying around in DX. You could say though, that using, for passwords, some dictionary words and proper nouns among the military is sloppy, but then again, it's a game, not the real life.

LatwPIAT
11th May 2009, 18:20
Crouching next to the desk and read a rough engraving with the password off the edge of the desk.

Break into the network manager's room and steal a sheet with backup passwords.

Stealing someone's old password and then clicking "I forgot my password" and abusing the insanely stupid (but still used in real life) security measure of requiring the old password in order to get a new one.

Learning that the old password was compromised, and that the old password was something like one of hte NPC's favourite books, and the finding a list of the NPC's favourite books.

Scraping plaster off the walls, blowing it gently over a fingerpring scanner, and then applying preasure with a rag.

"Yes, hello. This is <fake name> from you current ISP, <ISP>. We've had a recent database wipeout and need to make sure everything has been restored. May I have you name and password to confirm that your account is working propperly?"

Push Key: Enter

An email or newspost telling you that the three most common passwords are "password" "secret" and "god"

splyez
11th May 2009, 18:49
these ideas, all sound extremely nice. would be nice to get som diverisity to the whole "i gotz ur passward!" thing :D

Ghostface
12th May 2009, 05:20
we also need terminator style voice replication

KSingh77
14th May 2009, 20:10
How about finding a password under a desk because an employee was too lazy to remember.

PugPug
15th May 2009, 00:37
Those very same hi-tech multitools that he found in a dumpster, among some empty cardboard boxes and packets of soy food.

Heh just what I was thinking.

Not only do these paramilitary-types leave around passcodes, but they leave unsecured weapons, ammunition, crates full of TNT... :nut:

Abram730
15th May 2009, 02:01
Many security systems now use RFID with passcodes. Not only would you need the passcode but also the RFID to spoof. Simply getting close to them would give you the RFID and with their passcode you could open any door they can. Seeing as products more and more contain RFID, such a reader and spoofer could be very useful included into the datapad and it would add a whole new dimension to hacking. Perhaps you have an RFID and code and can later get access to new zones in a corporation coded by color. It could also add to the dystopian feel of the game.

RFID
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1426976r7ZnAz5w
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/music/watch/v1426983nxWDMd68
IBM RFID commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xNhL39uD7I
RFID phone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1AgudZwPkM

To take it a step a head of that. The datapad could construct maps based on spimes. A 3D world could be constructed via embedded chips in every product and building material sold. You could spoof new ID's for all your items or stop transmitting. You could get info on in game items.

spimes(internet of things)
A spime is an object which exists in at least one virtual world and may exist in the real world, contains embedded computational capability, has a unique identity, can determine its location, has a 3-D virtual design available in a virtual world, preferably is a fabject, and may be tracked in a virtual world as it migrates within virtual worlds and the real world.
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/entertainment/watch/v16299504P7CjZMsY
spime builder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9DsqA1xuVM

-metalhead-
16th May 2009, 23:23
Yes, but it was too much. I'd like to have more different options. Like reading what a guy types or hearing him say it while he types it. Many people do that.

HELL yeah. That would be ridiculously sick!!

-metalhead-
16th May 2009, 23:24
I totally agree with the RFID thing. This would also work really well with the emerging NWO that they will hopefully portray, especially considering the setting of the first DX.

lumpi
18th May 2009, 01:21
Did anybody else feel that the amount of codes and passwords left lying around in data-cubes was wildly unrealistic?

Since when did anyone believe that you could bring a militaristic-top-secret-research base to its knees by simply reading these insecure little notes left around so casually? I mean, its believable up to the point where a grunt might leave a code to a door in his locker, but the fact that an agent can simply bypass a building packed with state of the art defense technology by casually reading post-its just doesn't scan with me.

Just a thought.

Yea, let's remove that from the game... :hmm:

Seriously, though I don't believe this has much to do with real-world logic, and everything to do with gameplay tuning. You have to manage in-game information somehow, so letting bits of rewarding info lie around at strategic places is a good way of doing that. I don't have any troubles coming up with an explanation for it either. If everything fails, imagine those datacubes being protected by a rudimentary security system which JC circumvents at the touch of a button.

SemiAnonymous
18th May 2009, 05:15
Just a thought I had, I tend to jot things down on a magazine or whatnot and then I forget about it, perhaps this could be implemented?

For example, today I found a magazine with my bank access number written down on the cover. I don't remember writing it down, and it was something of a shock, so perhaps the same logic could be extended here. A lowly grunt just received the code to that big blast door on his patrol route, and he quickly wrote it down on a magazine about this newfangled Aquinas thingy that he barely understood, as to make sure he didn't forget. He then added it to his PDA or whatever and tossed the magazine aside, forgetting about it completely.

A few hours later, an intruder is poking around for clues and notices the magazine with some writing on it. He makes a mental note of the code, and when he later encounters those blast doors, he thinks to enter the code he found on that magazine. The blast doors enter, and the intruder continues on his mission, while no one can figure out how he got that code.

It doesn't have to be magazines only, of course. Bits of trash, whatever, just random things that only the most careful player would think to look at, and thus they are rewarded.

Also, I'm digging that Infrared idea, I can see some uses for that, both for and against you.

OuttaZyme
18th May 2009, 08:06
How about an aug or skill called "Password Extraction" (or some other relevant nomenclature) that can extract passwords from recently dead or unconscious enemies through a thin, non-lethal disposable probe inserted into the base of the brain. (Disposable = resource management, an essential part of a nutritious RPG.)

You have a set amount of time to extract a password from a dead enemy (from time of death until, say, three minutes later, when certain information in the brain is lost), and an unlimited amount of time from an unconscious enemy. Perhaps on enemies dead longer than three minutes, partial passwords may be extracted.

However, if you fail at the extraction on an unconscious subject, the probe shorts out and overstimulates the vagus nerve, which stops the poor sap's heart, resulting in A) a wasted probe, and B) a dead subject, and the three-minute clock starts ticking. (This simultaneously raises the stakes for -- and rewards -- a non-lethal playthrough.) If you fail at the process on a dead subject, the probe simply becomes unusable and you must insert another. Also, not every NPC in every area is going to know every code, so choose your candidates wisely.

Of course, since DX3 is a prequel, and this tech didn't exist in the first two games, it would be somewhat anachronistic unless you could somehow retcon (precon? protocon?) it in there.

gamer0004
18th May 2009, 16:07
Are you being serious?

(FYI: it's impossible to do any such thing within a century at least, if not for ever, and it very clearly is).

OuttaZyme
18th May 2009, 16:52
Hell, I suppose you could just sneak up behind them, knock them in the head, and rifle through their pockets for passwords and codes. Whatever works.

I suppose the real-world plausibility of the technology in Deus Ex had much to do with its appeal, so yeah, maybe that wouldn't work for DX3.

I like it for something else, though. Brain probes. I'd play that game. :D

lumpi
18th May 2009, 21:52
(FYI: it's impossible to do any such thing within a century at least, if not for ever, and it very clearly is).

Are you sure?

http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/12/scientists-extract-images-directly-from-brain/

SemiAnonymous
18th May 2009, 22:36
I suppose it could work if it was, say, a robot or Mechaug that you take down. Take a wander through its recent storage, see whats there. I'd rather it not show up at all, though.

Spyhopping
18th May 2009, 23:13
That visual representation thing has been done before with animals (although usually invasively. Think cat with electrodes in the back of it's head :S) but it's neat to see it being done with an fMRI on humans.

We're so very far from even beginning to understand how memories are coded though, I'm with Gamer here. Visual information is to begin with spatially represented in the brain in the same way as it is placed on the retina... a bit like a projector on a projector screen (ugh sorry, really clumsily worded) and so that kind of activation is relatively easy to interpret. You get nothing represented as simply as that anywhere else in the brain.

I'd think that the doctor claiming that 'reading thoughts will be possible' is referring to what happens when you visualise an image in your mind, and maybe a little misleading. Mental visual imagery creates activation in the visual cortex as if you were actually seeing something. Though I'd assume that the person would have to consciously and voluntarily decide to visualise their passcode, so it might not be too useful for your information extraction =P

AaronJ
19th May 2009, 01:14
Did anybody else feel that the amount of codes and passwords left lying around in data-cubes was wildly unrealistic?

Since when did anyone believe that you could bring a militaristic-top-secret-research base to its knees by simply reading these insecure little notes left around so casually? I mean, its believable up to the point where a grunt might leave a code to a door in his locker, but the fact that an agent can simply bypass a building packed with state of the art defense technology by casually reading post-its just doesn't scan with me.

Just a thought.

Keep in mind, you were in a few seriously top secret locations.