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Syst3mzero
22nd Dec 2013, 03:43
There seems to be some confusion where by people think the damage score actually counts for something unfortunately these people (the majority) seem a little confused as to what the damage score actually means.

The damage score is the amount of damage you have placed on the enemy team during the round, however not all that damage has helped your team as the other team can heal from this damage thus negating its positive impact for your team but not the impact on your damage score.

This incorrectly informs the players that they are doing well, All too often these players can not understand that their damage means nothing if themselves or the team do not finish the job of making the kill.

The actual scoring of the game is based soley from kills and deaths and yet I have had players argue the point that the rest of the team are "noobs" because they are getting high numbers in the damage column and others on the team may not be as high.

I never pull as high damage scores as these people however I also don't hand over as many points to the other team as these players as I make sure when I attack either myself or another player on my team stands to benefit rather than laying out damage with no plan.

When you calculate my score however you will normally see I have done more damage than needed to gain my score (often about 1.3-1.5x damage to 1 kill) which means obviously I'm doing plenty more than just getting kills I'm also assisting and with 1.3-1.5x damage I'm not just getting last hits (do the math if you don't get it)

Say I get a conservative 9 kills, I have done 12,285 (at a conservative 1.3x damage), 9 kills = 9450 damage (so I have covered the cost of 9 lives and have 2,835 worth of damage that has gone towards the teams kills or been healed by the other team)
however as we can all recognise a takedown is rarely a 1 man job but with that amount of damage I feel confident I have earned the 9 kills and whatever number assists.

My resolution to correct people in the error of their understanding of exactly how they have performed is to have damage decreases in the score. I would remove damage done from their score when that damage has been healed and therefore not had a positive effect on the number of kills or alternately the damage done not to be added untill it has resulted in a kill, if the player heals before they die it negates that damage.

alternatively simplify it all together and get rid of the damage score altogether because these confused people are struggling to see in the end its how many kills each team got that provides the actual end result.
the placement in the table really should be done using the math;

kill = 1pt
assist = 0.75pt
death = 1pt

kill+assist-death= placement

with assist being almost as highly rewarded as a kill then it would hopefully foster better teamwork.

Lets face it 75% of a team winning is teamwork after all, 25% of the win only comes down to personal skill as is often proved by highly skilled players not working as a team and scattering too much.

Oroibahazopi
22nd Dec 2013, 12:25
None of the stats really matter other than the overall number of kills and deaths for the team. It's easy so get a lot of kills by shaving off that last 100hp, and likewise getting high damage as a scout sniping vamps who regen it off.

Syst3mzero
22nd Dec 2013, 16:05
exactly my point, this means the damage score is invalid as its a pointless stat however its only function at the moment is to make deluded people think they can play and that it matters.

cmstache
23rd Dec 2013, 14:56
It serves as a good function for newer players. As a new player (no starting when more of the high level players did) I was using damage as a personal marker. K/D means little to nothing. I think Score has the most influence. But, I felt better doing 10k dmg a round instead of 3k. /It's more comforting to show improvement.

Psyonix_Corey
23rd Dec 2013, 17:47
It was originally added in an attempt to show an extra measure of player contribution because K/D can be very streaky. Assists expose this to some extent, but it's nice to be able to point to a massive damage score if you go 6-8 to prove you're contributing, just not getting the killshots. It also allows us to balance out XP gain and scores somewhat because it's not all Kill-based, but when we added damage we didn't have the partial Assist crediting we do now (where you get X points corresponding to the percentage of damage you did to the target).

Syst3mzero
24th Dec 2013, 19:46
It serves as a good function for newer players. As a new player (no starting when more of the high level players did) I was using damage as a personal marker. K/D means little to nothing. I think Score has the most influence. But, I felt better doing 10k dmg a round instead of 3k. /It's more comforting to show improvement.

This is my point exactly!
thinking damage = improvement.

So lets imagine I play Tyrant and cause the entire human team to lose half their health but then I die, I have just scored about 2k in damage, look at me I'm so badass!!!!! oh but wait I didn't go in with my team so the humans all healed all the damage I did and they scored a kill.... oh no!
Result = 0 kills, 0 assists, 1 death, 2000 damage

Damage in this case is a justification for a poor player.

My suggestion changes the scenario;

lets imagine I play Tyrant and cause the entire human team to lose half their health but then I die, I caused about 2k in damage, I didn't go in with my team so the humans all healed all the damage I did meaning that damage now doesn't get credited to me as I really didn't earn it anyway maybe I should think twice about doing that in future because in the end all that happened was I gave them a kill. oh no!

Result = 0 kills, 0 assists, 1 death, 0 damage



I would suggest that if you can't understand why my way is better and more accurate you re-read my original post and this one over and over till you can understand it.


It was originally added in an attempt to show an extra measure of player contribution because K/D can be very streaky. Assists expose this to some extent, but it's nice to be able to point to a massive damage score if you go 6-8 to prove you're contributing, just not getting the killshots. It also allows us to balance out XP gain and scores somewhat because it's not all Kill-based, but when we added damage we didn't have the partial Assist crediting we do now (where you get X points corresponding to the percentage of damage you did to the target).

Again my point made exactly, there are 3 types of score that contribute to your team

1) positive, more kills than deaths.
2) neutral, same kills as deaths
3) negative, less kills than deaths.

anyone can get a negative score, I get them sometimes, but a negative score shows you have allowed the enemy to score more points from you than you have scored from them meaning you are performing poorly for your team, dont justify this with the fact they have a high damage score because this damage score doesn't take into context if it was useful damage or useless damage which was healed.

useless damage is scored by players who go solo, often not scoring kills, getting plenty of deaths and dealing damage which is often healed.

the current damage score rewards poor players along with good players, my revisions reward good players and not the bad ones who use their damage score as justification for a poor teamwork.

Oroibahazopi
24th Dec 2013, 20:02
Problem with using assist is you can get the assist credit for just grazing your opponent with 100 damage say. So almost everyone has 20+ assists by the end of the match.

Syst3mzero
24th Dec 2013, 20:52
Problem with using assist is you can get the assist credit for just grazing your opponent with 100 damage say. So almost everyone has 20+ assists by the end of the match.

agreed, I would set a 25% threshold for assigning assist.

Tube_Reaver
24th Dec 2013, 20:57
I disagree on that, the threshold would just limit assists greatly, and have certain players stand out for too few assists in certain situations. A tyrant gets a few knockdowns with charge, and his team follows up nicely with kills, but he hasn't done 25% to any of the targets and thus gets 0 assists?

Psyonix_Corey
24th Dec 2013, 21:55
anyone can get a negative score, I get them sometimes, but a negative score shows you have allowed the enemy to score more points from you than you have scored from them meaning you are performing poorly for your team, dont justify this with the fact they have a high damage score because this damage score doesn't take into context if it was useful damage or useless damage which was healed.

I don't agree. What about a scout that goes 4-8 but did 50% of his team's damage, and a Hunter on his team happened to get the majority of the kill shots in team fights due to his higher rate of fire? The same scout that weakened the enemies so much from range to enable his teammates to excel? He's performing poorly? What about an alchemist that uses Healing Mist and negates a bunch of teammate deaths but has a "negative" K/D?

Damage being healed off doesn't negate it, either. What about a teammate that wounds a Reaver attacking you enough to make him evade and run away, but that damage is healed off. That was useless damage that saved your life and he shouldn't be credited for it?

I understand your frustration with players who lone wolf and justify their behavior with damage numbers but I feel you're advocating a very shortsighted view of what success and team contribution looks like.

Oroibahazopi
24th Dec 2013, 21:55
Tyrant charge does at least 325 dmg which at least 1/4 a human's health.

Jewer
24th Dec 2013, 21:56
Showing an 'extra' amount of information is never a bad thing. People who justify bad play with damage numbers, would justify it with something else if you removed the stat.

I agree the numbers are never directly indicative of the quality of play. Humans output a ton of 'phantom' damage; vampires will regenerate the vast majority of long-range harassment. Vampires' damage is more meaningful, but without coordination of teammates, it is either suicidal or simply an extremely sub-optimal, inefficient amount.

This doesn't mean there's NO value to the stat though. I'm hard pressed to think of a single game where the best player for their respective teams didn't have the highest damage, or quite close to it. It's still a quick and dirty way of seeing who is able to aim on human side, and land their abilities on vampire side.

There needs to remain a way to gain score other than the basic k/d/a. There are games where one player has literally more damage than his three teammates combined (the larger the discrepancies between each player, the more meaningful this stat becomes).

It is also in my opinion a lot less toxic for a player to try to pad their damage stats, than purely trying to preserve a k/d/a ratio. This is a team based game. The only metric that reliably shows the skill of a player is wins and losses.

Tube_Reaver
24th Dec 2013, 22:11
Tyrant charge does at least 325 dmg which at least 1/4 a human's health.

Ok my example was bad, but my point still stands, putting a threshold on assists isn't a good thing.


I don't agree. What about a scout that goes 4-8 but did 50% of his team's damage, and a Hunter on his team happened to get the majority of the kill shots in team fights due to his higher rate of fire? The same scout that weakened the enemies so much from range to enable his teammates to excel? He's performing poorly? What about an alchemist that uses Healing Mist and negates a bunch of teammate deaths but has a "negative" K/D?

Damage being healed off doesn't negate it, either. What about a teammate that wounds a Reaver attacking you enough to make him evade and run away, but that damage is healed off. That was useless damage that saved your life and he shouldn't be credited for it?

I understand your frustration with players who lone wolf and justify their behavior with damage numbers but I feel you're advocating a very shortsighted view of what success and team contribution looks like.

I completely agree, and especially with those great examples.

I would like to add that in other pvp games, I sometimes feel like playing a support/tank role, so my score would end up "negative" in k/d, however my assists make up for it, and also the damage taken, damage dealt etc.

So let's say I play a supportive alchemist, or a tank tyrant, where I focus more on disruption than in getting the kills myself.

Take this fictional example: say I go in as a tyrant, and use ignore pain and feebly attempt to LoS block humans from attacking my allies, so I am taking all the damage, I do some CC, and my team takes care of them, however my score is very negative. However if not for my "supporting" then we wouldn't have won the game.

Yes certain players will always justify their lone-wolf play style, however if not for the damage stat, they'll just find another stat to claim they're doing superb, it's just the damage one is the easeist to supposedly justify.

Syst3mzero
25th Dec 2013, 01:29
Take this fictional example: say I go in as a tyrant, and use ignore pain and feebly attempt to LoS block humans from attacking my allies, so I am taking all the damage, I do some CC, and my team takes care of them, however my score is very negative. However if not for my "supporting" then we wouldn't have won the game.

Yes certain players will always justify their lone-wolf play style, however if not for the damage stat, they'll just find another stat to claim they're doing superb, it's just the damage one is the easiest to supposedly justify.

Well you just perfectly made my point for me, if you are tanking and die while causing damage in a team effort and your enemies die by the hands of your team under my way you would be rewarded damage points.

Now if your team fails to kill any that you damage or you go in alone and there is no backup you wouldn't get the damage points if the humans heal that damage. however a failed attack should not be rewarded!

this gives you added incentive to make sure teamwork is used.

Now unfortunately the whole scoring system is not perfect I would do it completely differently but it would be more complex to implement as I would have a damage threshold that meant the last player to hit an enemy wouldn't always get the kill for example a 25% threshold meaning if the last person to hit the enemy didn't make at least 1/4 of the damage that was active on the enemy at time of death the kill would revert to the last player who did cause a minimum of 25% which would cut down on the number of what people call kill steals, however I'm not arguing that point as I don't see that it makes much of a difference in Nosgoth as you aren't really rewarded with gold for upgrades when you kill like you are in DOTA or LOL for example.

many complain that teamwork is the failing of many teams and while i suggest solutions which are do-able many of you seem to pick them apart out of fear of something new and different whilst not really truly taking the time to actually read AND comprehend my proposal.


Ok my example was bad, but my point still stands, putting a threshold on assists isn't a good thing.


Well actually oro disproved your example so no really with all due respect no your point doesn't still stand, in fact it now means your point is more incorrect than the world being flat.


I don't agree. What about a scout that goes 4-8 but did 50% of his team's damage, and a Hunter on his team happened to get the majority of the kill shots in team fights due to his higher rate of fire? The same scout that weakened the enemies so much from range to enable his teammates to excel? He's performing poorly? What about an alchemist that uses Healing Mist and negates a bunch of teammate deaths but has a "negative" K/D?

Damage being healed off doesn't negate it, either. What about a teammate that wounds a Reaver attacking you enough to make him evade and run away, but that damage is healed off. That was useless damage that saved your life and he shouldn't be credited for it?

I understand your frustration with players who lone wolf and justify their behavior with damage numbers but I feel you're advocating a very shortsighted view of what success and team contribution looks like.

Please don't take this personally but I your 1st point is so wrong that it couldn't possibly be a worse argument against my system, in fact due to you not taking the time to understand the proposal you made my point for me.
that scout WOULD be awarded the damage points IN MY SYSTEM as IN MY SYSTEM any damage that leads to a kill IS COUNTED any that doesn't lead to a kill is NOT COUNTED thus his DAMAGE SCORE would actually show he was a VALUABLE asset to his team unlike at the moment where HE MAY OR MAY NOT BE as he gets a damage score no matter if his damage leads to a kill or doesn't

your second point is semi valid as this would be a smaller downside than the current one of awarding points for aimless damage spamming, plus if the alch saved the person it limits the vamp heal to regen which only regens a small amount unlike the feed that would restore most/all the health. if the damage is not healed then the alch may carry over some damage till the vamp does heal or dies in which case it gets negated or awarded.

I won't hold it against you that you called me short-sighted I would just ask that in future if you are going to respond that you actually understand what has been said in the 1st place.

you responded as if i was attacking the game and you tried to defend it with your justifications, yes I'm arrogant and i don't fluff my opinions, I'm straight to the point and straight talking, but it was a suggestion on how to improve it. improving games is what Alpha and Beta is about, its really the sole purpose no matter if its bugs or gameplay that we give feedback but if you don't take the time to truly understand the feedback and take a little constructive criticism you may as well have skipped alpha and just beta tested the completed product for bugs.


Showing an 'extra' amount of information is never a bad thing. People who justify bad play with damage numbers, would justify it with something else if you removed the stat.

I agree the numbers are never directly indicative of the quality of play. Humans output a ton of 'phantom' damage; vampires will regenerate the vast majority of long-range harassment. Vampires' damage is more meaningful, but without coordination of teammates, it is either suicidal or simply an extremely sub-optimal, inefficient amount.

This doesn't mean there's NO value to the stat though. I'm hard pressed to think of a single game where the best player for their respective teams didn't have the highest damage, or quite close to it. It's still a quick and dirty way of seeing who is able to aim on human side, and land their abilities on vampire side.

There needs to remain a way to gain score other than the basic k/d/a. There are games where one player has literally more damage than his three teammates combined (the larger the discrepancies between each player, the more meaningful this stat becomes).

It is also in my opinion a lot less toxic for a player to try to pad their damage stats, than purely trying to preserve a k/d/a ratio. This is a team based game. The only metric that reliably shows the skill of a player is wins and losses.

you have come closest to making an argument against what I have said and while I think you have well thought out your answer I believe you could actually be almost agreeing with me.

my original request was to reform the damage stat as I stated

"My resolution to correct people in the error of their understanding of exactly how they have performed is to have damage decreases in the score. I would remove damage done from their score when that damage has been healed and therefore not had a positive effect on the number of kills or alternately the damage done not to be added untill it has resulted in a kill, if the player heals before they die it negates that damage."

this would be keeping the damage stat but increasing the accuracy of the contribution of actual damage towards the teams win.

whilst I agree that my system is not perfect it increases the quality of the stat, it promotes co-ordination of people who use this stat to quantify their contribution and devalues lone wolf players who don't complete kills.

yes some players will always justify bad play however I'm more concerned with the bad players who aren't justifying their bad play with this stat and more the players who think this stat justifies their bad play for them and don't truly comprehend that not all damage is equal.

if your team is losing and you see that you have done massive damage you feel your team is not pulling their weight.
this may or may not be true... how much of that damage has actually helped?
under my system you actually only see damage that HAS helped so you are better able to evaluate if you need to change what you are doing or if what you are doing HAS helped.

I would like to thank you however since you have obviously read my original post and mostly understood what I was getting at.
I think our main disagreement was that you thought I was posting a perfect system rather than just a better system.


None of the stats really matter other than the overall number of kills and deaths for the team. It's easy so get a lot of kills by shaving off that last 100hp, and likewise getting high damage as a scout sniping vamps who regen it off.

see oro gets it! hes quite right none of the stats matter (at the moment)


Problem with using assist is you can get the assist credit for just grazing your opponent with 100 damage say. So almost everyone has 20+ assists by the end of the match.

Agreed, another good point which is why i would like to see a damage threshold for it to be considered an assist


Tyrant charge does at least 325 dmg which at least 1/4 a human's health.

correct far above my suggestion for 25% thanks for backing me up :) , however Tube_Reaver 25% is a suggestion it could be 20% it would be something to test, say in an alpha... hey aren't we having one of those at the moment?


Thanks Oro, glad you were here to read it with a clear view of what I was talking about.

jestdoit
25th Dec 2013, 05:23
Damage done is still a very good indicator of a player's usefulness, since you are blowing cooldowns and forcing retreats, separating players from team fights. High skill games are about attrition - forcing a human team to blow healing station uses, and wearing down a vampire's max health, even if it's healed. Stuns and disables are a big deal here, shooting down a sentinel or leaping tyrant with a war bow and preventing the vamp team from coming in at the same time is immensely helpful. So what if they retreat? I'm lowering their max hp, taking a player out of the equation, and setting up a long-term kill. Vampires might feed to negate all that work, but the player is still providing their team with more kill opportunities - damage reflects that.

K/D and damage stats combined paints a good picture of a player's overall skill level and teamwork ability - there aren't many occasions where I feel players are out of place on the scoreboard, except when players have a deep k/d deficit + high damage. Those players hurt the team more than they help. If we're going for scoreboard contribution accuracy, kills should be worth more, but at the same time an equally hefty penalty for dying. Ie, score is deducted when you go negative k/d. If killing a player is worth 1 point, every death accrues -1 point, once you go into negative k/d.

Team healing done and disable/stun time applied are important as well, it'd be nice to see them visualized on the scoreboard.

Syst3mzero
27th Dec 2013, 00:17
K/D and damage stats combined paints a good picture of a player's overall skill level and teamwork ability - there aren't many occasions where I feel players are out of place on the scoreboard, except when players have a deep k/d deficit + high damage. Those players hurt the team more than they help. If we're going for scoreboard contribution accuracy, kills should be worth more, but at the same time an equally hefty penalty for dying. Ie, score is deducted when you go negative k/d. If killing a player is worth 1 point, every death accrues -1 point, once you go into negative k/d.


Again someone agreeing with me, not sure if they have realised it.

This is from the opening post in this thread."My resolution to correct people in the error of their understanding of exactly how they have performed is to have damage decreases in the score. I would remove damage done from their score when that damage has been healed and therefore not had a positive effect on the number of kills or alternately the damage done not to be added untill it has resulted in a kill, if the player heals before they die it negates that damage."

jestdoit
27th Dec 2013, 02:41
Yea, I already addressed that. Taking someone out of the fight and blowing their cooldowns is still beneficial to the team, even when the damage is healed. Eg. shooting down sentinels so only 2 players are coming in at a time, instead of 4.

If you are fighting smart vampires, you won't be damaging over 25% of their hp before they retreat. With your scoring method, people will only get credit when vampires make a fatal mistake and lose all their health at once. Someone carrying the team will lose 90% of their score when facing a good team.

Syst3mzero
28th Dec 2013, 11:27
Yea, I already addressed that. Taking someone out of the fight and blowing their cooldowns is still beneficial to the team, even when the damage is healed. Eg. shooting down sentinels so only 2 players are coming in at a time, instead of 4.

If you are fighting smart vampires, you won't be damaging over 25% of their hp before they retreat. With your scoring method, people will only get credit when vampires make a fatal mistake and lose all their health at once. Someone carrying the team will lose 90% of their score when facing a good team.

So did I Jest, Corey raised the same point here is my reply to him from post #16



your second point is semi valid as this would be a smaller downside than the current one of awarding points for aimless damage spamming, plus if the alch saved the person it limits the vamp heal to regen which only regens a small amount unlike the feed that would restore most/all the health. if the damage is not healed then the alch may carry over some damage till the vamp does heal or dies in which case it gets negated or awarded.


As for not doing 25% and vampires getting away my suggestion would be play better. 100% is made from 4 x 25%.
Vampires get away when humans don't work together. I also said they only get credit for damage not healed. if the vampire retreats then more than likely they will only regen and that does not restore full health thus reduced damage would still apply. personally if I were facing the problems most of you all seem to be then I would aim at trying to finish the job by working as a team.

The reason I suggested the alteration is to make people realise teamwork wins games, going for personal glory generally results in team failure. You are all so bothered with personal score and getting credit whereas I use the damage score more as a diagnostic tool of self reflection.

You are all aware that it doesn't matter what your team thinks about your score? no matter what they think it doesn't change how you play. you should be using your score to assess your play style.

We all know that asking players to do anything in game results in nothing. ask a player to stop charging in alone.... they keep doing it.
ask a player to stay with the group.... they wander off.

Its only when these players realise for themselves that they are playing wrong that they can finally learn. at the moment damage CAN be high whilst playing BADLY thus there people CAN use it to JUSTIFY and actually BELIEVE that JUSTIFICATION.

cmstache
31st Dec 2013, 01:33
Easy fixes:

Add Damage healed on final scoreboard. This would apply to:

Health regen
Feeding
Using a heal station
Healing mist (would give the points to the alch, obv.) *This is the only one that would work differently*

This will at least add some perspective to the numbers. Also, I wouldn't be opposed to a +200 for a kill, +1 per damage % on assists (way it is now), and a -200 for a death. The caveat being, points can't fall into negative (but still count against kills gained in the future until it's evened out) and points gained through assists can't be taken away.


Sorry for the slow reply... Vacay :)

The_Hylden
7th Jan 2014, 21:04
Syst3mzero, please stop posting consecutively after yourself. Use the multi-quote button if you wish to quote more than one person and use the edit button to edit your posts if you missed something you wanted to add. Rule #9, do not double post (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?a=1#rule9).

Moreover, your posts are coming across as arrogant, rude, and condescending. Rule #6, treat others' opinions with respect (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?a=1#rule6). Sorry to inform you, but not everyone is going to think every idea that you have is "right," or the best, and not everyone is going to agree with you. Their disagreements aren't, by way of disagreeing, always somehow making your point for you, either. You'll really never convince the developers that your way is better, for instance, by telling them "your 1st point is so wrong that it couldn't possibly be a worse argument against my system..." and stating that they can't even comprehend your point of view.

In short, please modify the way you treat others here in your posts in the future.


Thanks.