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View Full Version : ABILITIES Let's discuss Ignore Pain



Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 10:27
Hello all,

I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around the tyrant's ability "Ignore Pain".

Let's compare it to evasion, since it is very similar.

Ignore Pain - 80% damage reduction and breaks bola. You are unable to attack or use abilities for the duration.
CD: 25s, duration 6s

Evasion - 100% reduction vs all projectiles, breaks bola and reduces damage from area attacks (not sure of the % reduction on this). You cannot attack or use abilities for the duration.
CD: 25s, duration 5s.

So just from a quick glance, I can easily say that Evasion is much better ability overall (including the ever so slightly reduced duration).

Now evasion is a very nifty tool if you need a quick getaway, and you are more or less guaranteed to survive if you act quickly enough.

Now what about Ignore Pain?
-Is it an escape tool similar to evasion? Tyrant charges/jumps in and goes "My job is done here, I must go." pops ignore pain and runs off? Is the tyrant guaranteed to live? Nope. Even taking 20% damage he is liable to die if he didn't pop it soon enough or took a few good scout shots during the charge or jump.

-Should the tyrant use it after his charge/jump, when the humans focus their fire on him, so that he takes reduced damage and acts like a decoy so the rest of his team can engage? Yes and no. With ignore pain on for 6secs, you're pretty much out of the fight and not seen as an immediate threat. So if you're still healthy, the humans tend to ignore you (why waste ammo?) and take down your allies until the ability wears off.
(I've tried to act like a wall and block the humans' line of fire during an engage, but that doesn't work too well. :( )

Now if ignore pain has any other uses, please tell me, because currently I find the ability to be a lackluster escape, and a lackluster decoy tool.

Now if I could make my own suggestions:
It shouldn't be an escape tool.
It is much more suited to the idea that you charge into the fray, take reduced damage whilst still being some sort of threat to warrant the attention of the enemy.
How so?
change it to the following:

Reduces all damage by X%, breaks bola, and you cannot use abilities but you CAN attack however with a Y% reduced attack speed AND/OR reduced Y% melee damage.

With these changes it becomes dissimilar to evasion, and is no longer a primary escape tool but a "decoy" ability, you are still some what of threat to warrant some attention. You take reduced damage so you are still the beefy character (however you take enough to warrant being focused still), at the same time you can still attack rather than just stand there scratching your head or run off.

If anyone else has ideas feel free to suggest them. Or if you feel the ability is fine as is then please state as to why it is fine as is and how do you use it?

Oroibahazopi
21st Dec 2013, 13:05
Ignore pain is best skill, evasion wont really save you from explosives, poison or fire.

You can't chain jump/charge into shockwave/ground slam against a good team, just don't bother. So many Tyrants try to do this and die it's not even funny. You jump/charge then use ignore pain right away while you still have 80% or more health. Then you move away out of LoS and come back for a groundslam/shockwave while your team takes advantage of the humans that were focusing you.

Even if after your jump you find you haven't even been shot at it doesn't matter, humans can burst you down in a second which is how long it takes to cast gs/sw.

lucinvampire
21st Dec 2013, 13:37
You can't chain jump/charge into shockwave/ground slam against a good team, just don't bother. So many Tyrants try to do this and die it's not even funny. You jump/charge then use ignore pain right away while you still have 80% or more health. Then you move away out of LoS and come back for a groundslam/shockwave while your team takes advantage of the humans that were focusing you.

But it is very funny...but only if I'm the tyrant - many stupid deaths makes the game more fun :D

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 13:45
Ignore pain is best skill, evasion wont really save you from explosives, poison or fire.

You can't chain jump/charge into shockwave/ground slam against a good team, just don't bother. So many Tyrants try to do this and die it's not even funny. You jump/charge then use ignore pain right away while you still have 80% or more health. Then you move away out of LoS and come back for a groundslam/shockwave while your team takes advantage of the humans that were focusing you.

Even if after your jump you find you haven't even been shot at it doesn't matter, humans can burst you down in a second which is how long it takes to cast gs/sw.

On the contrary evasion will save you. More often than not the main damage source is a hunters crossbow or a scouts bow, and a tyrant is still taking 20%, whereas a reaver is taking nothing, the damage from fires or poison or other area attacks is reduced and not that much of a threat to be honest. All of this is my opinion of course

And the way you explain the use of Ignore Pain is pretty much as an escape ability, you run away, then get back into the fight when the duration is off. Similar to what reavers do with evasion.

Oroibahazopi
21st Dec 2013, 13:55
I kill evasion Reavers with traps all the time, and the Hunters I play with almost always finish Reavers with grenades etc.

Endure pain is guaranteed to keep you alive if you use it properly.

Even if there were a new skill that was like the one you suggested I'd probably still use endure pain as I'm often the first Vamp on the scene and take the full dps from the Humans.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 17:36
I kill evasion Reavers with traps all the time, and the Hunters I play with almost always finish Reavers with grenades etc.

Endure pain is guaranteed to keep you alive if you use it properly.

Even if there were a new skill that was like the one you suggested I'd probably still use endure pain as I'm often the first Vamp on the scene and take the full dps from the Humans.

I find it the other way around. Unless you took too long to pop your evasion, then even with traps or firewall you should make it out. Compared to ignore pain, you are taking 20% of any and all damage, and thus less likely to survive if you don't make a run for it asap.

Also if you are the first vamp on the scene, you charge/jump in right, taking quite a bit of damage before you pop ignore pain, then take reduced damage as you make a run for it, wait 6 seconds then jump back in the fight. You're still out of the fight for a whole 6 seconds. Not to mention the reavers will be doing the same as they pop evasion and are out of the fight themselves.

Jewer
21st Dec 2013, 20:39
Ignore pain is more than adequate in it's current state, and is definitely the better of the two skills. Oroibahazopi hit the nail pretty much on the head with everything he had to say.

If you're consistently dying with ignore pain activated you are doing something very, very wrong. Tyrant, with highest base health in the game, should never be killed by even all 4 humans when they're doing TWENTY PERCENT of their damage. That's 1/5th of their total dps output. For reference, think of how long it takes a single human to kill a healthy tyrant without the skill activated.

You WANT to be targeted when you pop the skill. You are burning human ability cooldowns and ammo at 1/5th the effectiveness for them. Your mindset should always be jump attack in, pop ignore pain, soak damage, run to cover. jump attack back in to clean up. If the humans completely ignore you, walk around the back of them and wait for the duration to end to get in free, unseen damage (charge attack, groundslam, shockwave, basic attacks).

It is also extremely useful when eating a corpse in a hairy situation. With ignore pain activated, there have been countless times I drag a corpse from the middle of a fight (while being hit) around a corner, feed while taking damage (splash or a lone human following), and NOT have it interrupted due to the damage mitigation.

If you wait until you're below 50% hp, then yes you will die. If you neglect to dodge roll and climb to break line of sight, then yes you will die.

There are many hard counters to evasion (most notably EVERYTHING an alchemist does); ignore pain has none.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 22:48
Yes, I want to be targeted when I pop Ignore Pain, however do you really think the human team will bother?
As I said, you are literally nothing but a walking wall while it is active. You do nothing but block line of sight, you are not an immediate threat, and if the human team sees fit to focus you then either

1) you went in solo and your team didn't follow up
2) they need to rethink their priorities

As for your statement

Tyrant, with highest base health in the game, should never be killed by even all 4 humans when they're doing TWENTY PERCENT of their damage
I completely disagree, you are greatly underestimating the dps potential that 4 humans can do.

I am not saying Ignore Pain isn't a good defensive cooldown, but it's used to simply run off.
I highly doubt any decent human team will focus a tyrant with ignore pain on, so I won't be drawing any fire or causing human CDs to pop and waste them on me.
Yes I can run off, and then when ignore pain is over I get back into the fight and use my other ability and such, agreed on that, but for 6sec I am still out of the fight, and that's my issue with it. We've already got Reavers doing the exact same with evasion.

Jewer
22nd Dec 2013, 05:43
You seem to be extremely bothered that tyrants go in and out of a fight like a reaver....or also like a sentinel perhaps? Vampires have health that regenerates. Humans do not. In order to make up for all their disadvantages, the best tactic by far on vampire side is to do constant hit and runs. After a few skirmishes you get to heal up fully and do it all over again when the humans respawn.

Although, as I'm sure you realize, even with seemingly 'similar' disengage defensive skills, both classes use them for very different reasons. Being the first to engage the enemy as a reaver (with anything other than thrown gas) does less than nothing for your team.

The skill as it stands is one of the best in the game for vampires. Try playing a high level game without at least one tank tyrant and let me know how that goes for you. Any adding of offensive capabilities would either be extremely over powered, or completely have to hamper any defensive benefit to balance it making the skill useless.

Consider a moment from the human side's standpoint on fighting a character that takes reduced damage while being capable of utterly destroying you up close. Right now you decide between going offensive and risking dying, or retreating to live another day without being able to continue outputting damage. What exactly is the risk/reward of the changes you'd like to see? When would you ever NOT use it?

Tube_Reaver
22nd Dec 2013, 09:22
First let me say, I appreciate the discussion/feedback/ideas and such from everyone who replied. :)

Now, let me continue.

You seem to be misunderstanding, I am not bothered by going in and out of fights. I know hit and run is a good tactic for vamps, and probably an encouraged one, with the way the game is designed. I actually like it.

I'll say it again, I want to be a target as a tyrant, especially when I pop ignore pain. I actually like the idea of being a tanky-ish class. However no decent human team will target a tyrant with ignore pain up, especially if the tyrant is followed up by reavers and sentinels, who are such a higher threat that the tyrant is completely ignored.
But wait, it's good, they ignored me, so I have relatively good health left. So now I can shockwave and melee all I want. However in those 6 secs I was out of the fight, my team could have been decimated and thus escaped or died, so now what? Do I go in and try to dish out my awesome damage? No that would be suicide. So I wait till my teammates regen or revive, and we go back in (very much hit and run in a way)
If my team actually managed to own the human team, I can come in to help and clean-up more or less.

Again, I don't mind hit and run however it should not be the only way to play as vamps. Also we are still in Alpha there's a lot of room for improvement and changes to be made. Hence this thread.



Consider a moment from the human side's standpoint on fighting a character that takes reduced damage while being capable of utterly destroying you up close.
This is my issue, because it's incorrect. You do not take reduced damage whilst at the same time dish out amazing damage. You either dish out amazing damage with no damage reduction, or you deal no damage with 80% damage reduction for 6sec.

Would it be overpowered in it's current state if they let you melee? Yes, hence why, reducing the damage reduction slightly, whilst giving you very slow attack speed melee (perhaps with some reduced damage as well if balance dictates) in return would actually go with what you said above, you'll be dishing out some damage, whilst remaining an annoyance that has you become a target even though your Ignore Pain is active, giving the rest of your team more of a chance.

So imagine the following (the numbers are not set, just random), a tyrant gets in (charge/jump), and pops ignore pain, he takes 50% reduced damage, but deals 30% melee damage.
Or
pops ignore pain, and takes 50% damage reduction, but can still melee, with an 80% reduced attack speed.
Yes, you take more damage, but you can actually deal some damage, and you are now classified as a hindrance, and somewhat of a threat, thus warrant being targeted, which thus gives the vamps who followed up, more of an advantage, because not only do you block LoS but you are smacking some humans about.

It can still be used as a hit and run ability, pop it and run for it, but it'll have other uses too, like actually be a viable target for the human team to consider taking you out.

I am merely giving my opinion on an ability, that whilst has its use, I find can be tweaked to gain more uses, and actually fit the role of the tyrant class.

Oroibahazopi
22nd Dec 2013, 12:28
50% reduced damage would mean you die in 2 seconds rather than 1. At least with the 80% you get 5 seconds to escape.

Tube_Reaver
22nd Dec 2013, 13:01
50% reduced damage would mean you die in 2 seconds rather than 1. At least with the 80% you get 5 seconds to escape.

So 80% = 5sec
and 50% = 2sec?
Not so sure about that, and also if you need 5 seconds to escape, you are pretty much dead anyway or close enough to it, as you have 1 second left on Ignore pain.
Again the numbers are not set in stone as I stated, but at least the ability would accomplish more, then just a flat defensive cooldown that locks you out.

Also to add to the whole hit and run thing. Ok so I lock myself out of the fight for 6 secs, including running away and all, but then I have to wait for my regen to start and finish before I get back into the fight.
That is really quite a lot of time out of the fight.
Again, it's a good tactic sure, but my suggestion is that what if you stayed with the other 3 vamps and did something? My suggestion of ignore pain will allow you to soak up some damage, while returning some damage.

Oroibahazopi
22nd Dec 2013, 13:08
You take 1/2 the damage or you take 1/5 the damage what's to understand?

Tube_Reaver
22nd Dec 2013, 13:12
You take 1/2 the damage or you take 1/5 the damage what's to understand?

Actually it would be something more along the lines of 3sec and not 2sec.

How about this then,. we keep ignore pain as it is and release a version of it with the idea that I stated, this way we are all happy. :D
Endure Pain or something along those lines. As there are variations of abilities in the game anyway, a variation on ignore pain would with less damage reduction and the ability to attack (reduced) would be nice.

I'll edit the OP with this.

Jewer
22nd Dec 2013, 22:37
Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly, but I believe tyrant has 1340 base health (again, I may be off +/- 15 here but the following point still stands).

At 80% damage reduction it takes 1340/0.2 = 6700 total damage to kill you.

At 50% damage reduction it takes 1340/0.5 = 2600 total damage to kill you.

If this discussion has morphed into a general brainstorming for new secondary abilities, then something along the lines of your proposal could work.

Just to be clear though, this new skill would be a much closer replacement option for Enrage, not Ignore Pain. You would come into the fight AFTER the initial engage, use your CC abilities, and then pop this buff to continue fighting.

Any skill that has the sheer damage reduction of Ignore Pain should NOT have any offensive capabilities. Anything with less reduction would be blown up far too quickly to be the primary target.

Tube_Reaver
22nd Dec 2013, 22:57
Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly, but I believe tyrant has 1340 base health (again, I may be off +/- 15 here but the following point still stands).

At 80% damage reduction it takes 1340/0.2 = 6700 total damage to kill you.

At 50% damage reduction it takes 1340/0.5 = 2600 total damage to kill you.

If this discussion has morphed into a general brainstorming for new secondary abilities, then something along the lines of your proposal could work.

Just to be clear though, this new skill would be a much closer replacement option for Enrage, not Ignore Pain. You would come into the fight AFTER the initial engage, use your CC abilities, and then pop this buff to continue fighting.

Any skill that has the sheer damage reduction of Ignore Pain should NOT have any offensive capabilities. Anything with less reduction would be blown up far too quickly to be the primary target.

Well I thought why not a variation of it, I am not one to want to take away from the game, and since we already have certain variations (pounce and savage pounce) I see no harm in having Ignore Pain and Endure Pain (take up the same slot of course). This solution would be the best of both worlds, so to speak.
I don't think its closer to enrage, as I said it still would contain some damage reduction, but would reduce your damage in turn as well. So it is more of a variation on ignore pain than enrage.

Again, I know ignore pain's damage reduction is a lot and useful.
However with your numbers it just proves my point, no one in their right mind would focus a tyrant that has popped ignore pain.

Which is my issue from the beginning, I want to be the target even after I charge in and I pop ignore pain.

Jewer
22nd Dec 2013, 23:17
The only way a tyrant remains the target is if their damage output potential to time it takes to kill ratio favors it. Adding a very small amount of damage output to an extremely strong defense skill doesn't entice anyone to target you. You'd be the beefiest target with the least damage. Also, in order for this to be viable, it would almost always be a direct upgrade to the current Ignore Pain.

Those numbers I posted were to point out that a skill with only 50%, or even 60%, damage reduction would die quite fast if they were the first vampire to start the fight.

I compared it to Enrage from a team role standpoint. You follow up the initiation; not start it.

Tube_Reaver
22nd Dec 2013, 23:25
The only way a tyrant remains the target is if their damage output potential to time it takes to kill ratio favors it. Adding a very small amount of damage output to an extremely strong defense skill doesn't entice anyone to target you. You'd be the beefiest target with the least damage. Also, in order for this to be viable, it would almost always be a direct upgrade to the current Ignore Pain.

Those numbers I posted were to point out that a skill with only 50%, or even 60%, damage reduction would die quite fast if they were the first vampire to start the fight.

I compared it to Enrage from a team role standpoint. You follow up the initiation; not start it.

That is why I said the damage reduction on this variation should be lower, not just for the sake of balance, but to entice the human team to warrant taking shots at you rather than your team.

I don't want an ability that is a direct upgrade, and I doubt there will be one, if as you and others have argued that ignore pain is essential.

Again, I want the opposite of ignore pain and its current use. I want to briefly become somewhat beefy, but still be a viable target.