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View Full Version : ABILITIES Roll-cancellable Pounce and Channeled Eating



jestdoit
21st Dec 2013, 08:45
Vampires are suffering from too many locked animations, making them really easy to predict and kill. Besides linear climbing and melee attacks, another two huge offenders are successful pounces and eating.


Pounces (savage and default) are essentially suicide against good human teams. I see them as free kill/damage opportunities. A reaver will land maybe one to three slashes before the entire team unloads on them. Players can mash evade, but still might get killed from aoe's/fire. At the very least the reaver will be missing half of its life - they end up taking much more damage than they gave out, punishing players for doing something right. Pounce is only useful against isolated players, which means you'll never get to use it when you're up against good players, except to finish battles you've already won. Choking mist + pounce sounds good on paper, but again, that's only effective when you're up against inexperienced players and humans who aren't working together.

Suggested fix:
Make pounces cancellable with rolls. Works exactly the same as rolling from a run, or roll-cancelling an attack - cancel a successful pounce by picking a direction+pressing roll. Even if pounces are worthless against good teams, at least with roll-cancel you won't be giving free kills away.


Eating. Sure, vampires can pick up bodies, but once they start eating, they're sitting ducks. I've lost count of the vampires I've ganked because they were stuck in a long, uninterruptible eating animation. Humans can break off healing at will.

Suggested fix:
Make eating a channeled animation like heal stations. Hold X to eat, let go to drop the body. Or make the eating animation roll-cancellable.

RainaAudron
21st Dec 2013, 09:07
Very good suggestions, I like the idea to use the roll to cancel out the animations.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 09:36
Vampires are suffering from too many locked animations, making them really easy to predict and kill. Besides linear climbing and melee attacks, another two huge offenders are successful pounces and eating.


Pounces (savage and default) are essentially suicide against good human teams. I see them as free kill/damage opportunities. A reaver will land maybe one to three slashes before the entire team unloads on them. Players can mash evade, but still might get killed from aoe's/fire. At the very least the reaver will be missing half of its life - they end up taking much more damage than they gave out, punishing players for doing something right. Pounce is only useful against isolated players, which means you'll never get to use it when you're up against good players, except to finish battles you've already won. Choking mist + pounce sounds good on paper, but again, that's only effective when you're up against inexperienced players and humans who aren't working together.

Suggested fix:
Make pounces cancellable with rolls. Works exactly the same as rolling from a run, or roll-cancelling an attack - cancel a successful pounce by picking a direction+pressing roll. Even if pounces are worthless against good teams, at least with roll-cancel you won't be giving free kills away.


Eating. Sure, vampires can pick up bodies, but once they start eating, they're sitting ducks. I've lost count of the vampires I've ganked because they were stuck in a long, uninterruptible eating animation. Humans can break off healing at will.

Suggested fix:
Make eating a channeled animation like heal stations. Hold X to eat, let go to drop the body. Or make the eating animation roll-cancellable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't you press E to cancel the feeding animation? I am sure I got the pop-up saying "press E to cancel"
As a side note, I am sure I got the same pop-up with Alchemist's flamethrower.

As for pounce, why not try leap? (the one without the stunlock?)

jestdoit
21st Dec 2013, 10:46
Oh man - does that actually work for you? Aren't you thinking about cancelling body dragging and not the actual feeding animation? Been playing all this time and I've never seen anyone cancel feeding, except from taking damage.

But yea, I use leap attack exclusively. Pounce and savage pounce are just unusable, some of the high level players who were participating in our end of year games can probably attest to that. Though even the rebound flip off a successful leap attack can leave you wide open for punishment if humans are on the ball.

lucinvampire
21st Dec 2013, 11:50
I'm sure I notice the press E to cancel on feed last night too :D

RainaAudron
21st Dec 2013, 11:59
Ah yes, you can cancel feeding and flamethrower for example, I canceled feeding few times when humans were around, it can save your life :D I use leap attack for the same reasons as you guys. Don´t like to be a locked down target in middle of humans, that´s suicide. Also leap recharges faster and lets you crawl fast on four so you are always ready to pounce.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 12:38
Oh man - does that actually work for you? Aren't you thinking about cancelling body dragging and not the actual feeding animation? Been playing all this time and I've never seen anyone cancel feeding, except from taking damage.

But yea, I use leap attack exclusively. Pounce and savage pounce are just unusable, some of the high level players who were participating in our end of year games can probably attest to that. Though even the rebound flip off a successful leap attack can leave you wide open for punishment if humans are on the ball.

Yeah the rebound flip is quite annoying, however I think it's a necessary evil to give the human (whose face you just tore to shreds) a chance to get away or use an ability.

However this doesn't mean pounce is a bad ability, it's just used differently to Leap. In low level play you notice vamps going in one after the other, and dying or barely escaping and not doing too well over all. (I admit to getting a bit trigger happy and pouncing someone I think is somewhat isolated and ...well my face gets torched or something)
However some better vamp teamplay is when the vamps going in all at once, I notice much better results with this. I notice a tyrant charging in, so I follow up and kidnap someone with my sentinel, and the two reavers immediately pounce a target each. Can tear a good team to shreds, as you basically divide and conquer.

Also as others have confirmed you can use E to cancel the feeding animation.

jestdoit
21st Dec 2013, 15:19
In my experience, those tactics work pretty well against intermediate teams. Intermediate = If a tyrant is able to charge without dying, and if sentinels are able to land kidnaps. Against a good human team, going in all at once means humans win, because they're just not going to let you initiate or pull off any team combos whatsoever. IE, they'll gib the tyrant while he's jumping in from midair, use sound to track and shoot down sentinels with prejudice, and you can completely forget about pounce. Every vampire initiation is easily countered with proper spacing and combined fire. When that happens, vampires have to play harass, hit and running with uncommitted choking gas/shockwave/leap attacks/etc and using their inherent hp regen to skirmish and slowly whittle human health down. Vampires never get the chance to commit to anything at high levels, or they get vaporized from accurate combined fire. As a vampire, the meta is more about not making any mistakes or putting yourself at risk. The divide and conquer part usually comes when you've already won the team fight.

Pounce is the very definition of a committed, risky attack, where you lock yourself in a long, suicidal animation. It doesn't help you tip the scale towards winning a team fight against good players, and you can't harass with it. More often than not, it hurts your team since the risk vs reward is skewed completely towards humans. It can be good against isolated players, but then again everything is.

Oroibahazopi
21st Dec 2013, 15:40
There's an inherent imbalance between the Human dodge and Vampire dodge.

Even though vampire melee dps is lacklustre Humans can negate all the damage and put distance between the themselves that the vamp has to close (losing dps).

Vampires get gibbed dodging like it does nothing. Only benefit is that it's slightly faster than walking, and it slightly lowers your hitbox.

Also humans get damage reduction when knocked down while vamps don't.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 17:26
In my experience, those tactics work pretty well against intermediate teams. Intermediate = If a tyrant is able to charge without dying, and if sentinels are able to land kidnaps. Against a good human team, going in all at once means humans win, because they're just not going to let you initiate or pull off any team combos whatsoever. IE, they'll gib the tyrant while he's jumping in from midair, use sound to track and shoot down sentinels with prejudice, and you can completely forget about pounce. Every vampire initiation is easily countered with proper spacing and combined fire. When that happens, vampires have to play harass, hit and running with uncommitted choking gas/shockwave/leap attacks/etc and using their inherent hp regen to skirmish and slowly whittle human health down. Vampires never get the chance to commit to anything at high levels, or they get vaporized from accurate combined fire. As a vampire, the meta is more about not making any mistakes or putting yourself at risk. The divide and conquer part usually comes when you've already won the team fight.

Pounce is the very definition of a committed, risky attack, where you lock yourself in a long, suicidal animation. It doesn't help you tip the scale towards winning a team fight against good players, and you can't harass with it. More often than not, it hurts your team since the risk vs reward is skewed completely towards humans. It can be good against isolated players, but then again everything is.

First let me, I am say not sure what level of play I would sit at to be honest, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Also they way you describe it, is that the human players are just outclassing the vamps. If the humans focus fire and insta-gib one vamp after the other it does work if they go in one by one, but if the vamps are going in all at once, with each vamp picking off a target each, then they can't focus fire 4 targets at the same time.

Example: if the humans are looking towards a jumping/charging tyrant, then that's when the sentinels/reavers go in from the flank or from behind, using mists and pounce/leap, and etc. At least that's how I tend to play it, and it works.

The harass tactic really doesn't work in the end, yeah you'll kill them eventually, but they'll have more points overall, and they'll have gotten a kill or two as well, if not kill you all, if they are as good as you make them out to be. This is especially true if the humans go from healing station to healing station.

I admit it seems sometimes that winning is easier as a human, as most tie games end with each team winning their respective human game, and losing the vamp game.

Pounce does work in the sense it's a CC/lockdown, you take the scout or hunter out of the fight. As for pounce being a committed risky attack, the same can be said for jump/charge and nose dive. That's why when you commit it has to be the whole team as one, any other tactic makes you easy pickings for a good human team, especially if they have great scouts.

Jewer
21st Dec 2013, 20:58
There's a huge difference between tyrant jump attack/charge and reaver's pounce.

First of all, tyrant has aoe disruption. If you land a good leap/charge you are stunning/knocking down multiple people. Second, when I get shot out of the air with a war bow while jump attacking in, I still am able to get up, ignore pain, and survive. I'll be extremely low at this point, but alive is alive. A knock-downed reaver is a dead reaver. Not to mention pounce gets disrupted from pure damage; tyrant goes through practically everything.

That's if things go 'wrong' (aka most of the time). If everything goes right, pounce is even worse when compared to the tyrant skills. You call it a cc/lockdown, but it denies your team from putting any extra damage on them. In fact, it can SAVE human lives. I'd LOVE to be on the ground stuck in a pounce animation as a human as oppose to getting scooped by a sentinel or stunned merciless by tyrants.

Any single situation that pounce works, leap attack does it better.

jestdoit
21st Dec 2013, 22:34
Also they way you describe it, is that the human players are just outclassing the vamps. If the humans focus fire and insta-gib one vamp after the other it does work if they go in one by one, but if the vamps are going in all at once, with each vamp picking off a target each, then they can't focus fire 4 targets at the same time.

Vampires aren't being outclassed, it's just that the skill cap for vampires is much lower than it is for humans. If your aim is good as a human, you'll be incredible. Vampires don't really have the tricks or ability to set themselves apart - it's more about having solid tactics and the right mindset instead of technical ability. The reward for being a good vampire player just isn't there, compared to the reward for being skilled with human.

"Vamps going in all at once" always means someone is going in first. Vamps are melee. Humans are ranged hitscan/aoe. They'll be spread apart making your own charges/AOEs ineffective, while still maintaining LOS on each other. They also won't be sitting in one spot letting the vamp team set up. Most likely they'll have aggressive scouts baiting and chasing down vampires with grappling hook (while still being supported). On the off chance someone does get pounced, all it takes is one of the other three players to look and instantly knock the reaver off, doing heavy damage during the pounce-cancel animation. Good teams will see it as a free kill opportunity since all 3 will be shooting. IE knife and kill during stun animation, or shoot off and finish with explosive if it's mashing evade.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 22:54
There's a huge difference between tyrant jump attack/charge and reaver's pounce.

First of all, tyrant has aoe disruption. If you land a good leap/charge you are stunning/knocking down multiple people. Second, when I get shot out of the air with a war bow while jump attacking in, I still am able to get up, ignore pain, and survive. I'll be extremely low at this point, but alive is alive. A knock-downed reaver is a dead reaver. Not to mention pounce gets disrupted from pure damage; tyrant goes through practically everything.

That's if things go 'wrong' (aka most of the time). If everything goes right, pounce is even worse when compared to the tyrant skills. You call it a cc/lockdown, but it denies your team from putting any extra damage on them. In fact, it can SAVE human lives. I'd LOVE to be on the ground stuck in a pounce animation as a human as oppose to getting scooped by a sentinel or stunned merciless by tyrants.

Any single situation that pounce works, leap attack does it better.

I am not comparing tyrant's charge/jump to the reaver's pounce, I merely commented that they are both "all-in" abilities.

As for pounce being a CC/lockdown that denies your teammates from killing someone. Again, it's meant to lockdown an opponent long enough to deal with the rest, not to pin them down and have 4 vamps beat on the single human, although in most cases when pounce is over, that happens anyway if you got 3 vamps waiting.

Imo Pounce does it's job in a well coordinated vampire team, it locks down opponents, just the same as a kidnap pulls away opponents (and in a sense locking them down by pulling them away from the fight).

At the end of the day, if you don't like pounce, don't use it, there's leap for you. To each their own. :)



Vampires aren't being outclassed, it's just that the skill cap for vampires is much lower than it is for humans. If your aim is good as a human, you'll be incredible. Vampires don't really have the tricks or ability to set themselves apart - it's more about having solid tactics and the right mindset instead of technical ability. The reward for being a good vampire player just isn't there, compared to the reward for being skilled with human.

"Vamps going in all at once" always means someone is going in first. Vamps are melee. Humans are ranged hitscan/aoe. They'll be spread apart making your own charges/AOEs ineffective, while still maintaining LOS on each other. They also won't be sitting in one spot letting the vamp team set up. Most likely they'll have aggressive scouts baiting and chasing down vampires with grappling hook (while still being supported). On the off chance someone does get pounced, all it takes is one of the other three players to look and instantly knock the reaver off, doing heavy damage during the pounce-cancel animation. Good teams will see it as a free kill opportunity since all 3 will be shooting. IE knife and kill during stun animation, or shoot off and finish with explosive if it's mashing evade.

Yes humans do have a higher-skill cap due to having to aim and such (which will be somehow sorted with some vamp enhancements hopefully :D ).

However the way you make it seem is that there is no point playing vampire, you may as well hide and camp until the timer runs out to not give them any kills, and wait till it's your turn to play humans.
You are asking for as much coordination and perfect plays from the human team as I am of the vampire team.

The humans do have the advantage in certain cases yes, but they aren't unbeatable, even with a semi-spread formation.

Psyonix_Corey
21st Dec 2013, 23:05
Yeah the rebound flip is quite annoying, however I think it's a necessary evil to give the human (whose face you just tore to shreds) a chance to get away or use an ability.

This is why it's there. I'd be happy for us to look into controllable dodge-cancelling on the Pounce attack sequence, but it creates scenarios where you can intentionally roll into geometry to negate the spacing we give humans who have been Pounced.

Will give it some thought.

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 23:10
This is why it's there. I'd be happy for us to look into controllable dodge-cancelling on the Pounce attack sequence, but it creates scenarios where you can intentionally roll into geometry to negate the spacing we give humans who have been Pounced.

Will give it some thought.

Hi :D
I think it's fine as is, pounce would become too much if I could jump someone, tear their face off, and then follow up immediately with "in your face" melee attacks until my target is dead.


As for the cancelling bit, why not make it so that I press E to cancel and do the rebound flip early?

Why not give us a 30-45 degree angle, so I can rebound flip slightly to the left, or right, or just straight back, because it would be nice to leap off a ledge to the left or behind some cover on the right etc. However keep the rebound flip range the same.

So this way I can hold A and press E, and rebound to the left, S and E to rebound straight back, or D and E and rebound to the right :D

jestdoit
21st Dec 2013, 23:48
However the way you make it seem is that there is no point playing vampire, you may as well hide and camp until the timer runs out to not give them any kills, and wait till it's your turn to play humans.
You are asking for as much coordination and perfect plays from the human team as I am of the vampire team.

We've already had games like that, where humans would win the first round, then run away/avoid risk as vampires in high-skill games. You can ask Oro about the Provance match where the entire vamp team hid during the 2nd round when we were on opposing sides :)

Against a good team, if you lost the first round and you're vamp the second round - everyone going all in just makes things worse. Camping isn't an option since you'll lose the game. The only choice is to skirmish and harass, making use of vampire's 25% hp regen. Pounce is completely worthless in that metagame.

Humans don't require perfect plays or coordination to make things happen like vampires do. The have ranged hitscan. They can freely move and attack at the same. Humans just need good aim, and an extremely simple yet effective strategy: always keep LOS on teammates, don't stand near each other.

Just wondering, what's your IGN? Have you played any of the games where good shooters like Oro, Jewer, Plux, Raina, Talespin, ZP, Bobo etc. were on the same team?

Tube_Reaver
21st Dec 2013, 23:58
We've already had games like that, where humans would win the first round, then run away/avoid risk as vampires in high-skill games. You can ask Oro about the Provance match where the entire vamp team hid during the 2nd round when we were on opposing sides :)

Against a good team, if you lost the first round and you're vamp the second round - everyone going all in just makes things worse. Camping isn't an option since you'll lose the game. The only choice is to harass, making use of vampire's 25% hp regen. Pounce is completely worthless in that metagame.

Humans don't require perfect plays or coordination to make things happen like vampires do. The have ranged hitscan. They can freely move and attack at the same. Humans just need good aim, and an extremely simple yet effective strategy: always keep LOS on teammates, don't stand near each other.

Agreed ranged hitscan can be an issue especially on maps with open areas, or a good open view for scouts and hunters.
For instance I find the new Sommerdamm map to be pretty good for vamps, as there are a lot of corners and such, so unless you are running straight for the humans, ranged shots from scouts and hunters won't be as big a problem.

As for the easy tactic, I definitely see what you mean, but if each of the humans have their hands full with claws to face from vamps, then you can't expect them to back each other up so well.

Edit:

Just wondering, what's your IGN? Have you played any of the games where good shooters like Oro, Jewer, Plux, Raina, Talespin, ZP, Bobo etc. were on the same team?

Same as the forum name Tube Reaver :D
Although I honestly can't recall perfectly but I have played against/with Raina, Oro and some of the others mentioned I believe.

Oroibahazopi
22nd Dec 2013, 23:43
You can ask Oro about the Provance match where the entire vamp team hid during the 2nd round when we were on opposing sides
We wasted what, 1/4-1/3 of the match just waiting in one area? And you only really came to find us because we were laughing about it in chat, though I'm sure you've made a move eventually. It could have been way worse though if we all decided before the round started to go reaver and hide in pounce position in unreachable places.


Just wondering, what's your IGN? Have you played any of the games where good shooters like Oro, Jewer, Plux, Raina, Talespin, ZP, Bobo etc. were on the same team?
Something could be easily arranged.

jestdoit
23rd Dec 2013, 09:14
Same as the forum name Tube Reaver :D
Although I honestly can't recall perfectly but I have played against/with Raina, Oro and some of the others mentioned I believe.


Would be fun to schedule some organized games of good vampires vs humans. It'd be a great way to determine what abilities people use/discard, and how the "all-in at the same time" tactic works for four good vampires. Anyone interested could form a team to participate as well.

CRUXE!! and Hugbringer have especially mean sentinels, they could represent a good vamp setup. Most good shooters, like some of the players I mentioned above, also have good vampires. I'm calling first dibs on a couple of them for good human backup though ;]

RainaAudron
23rd Dec 2013, 12:12
Just wondering, what's your IGN? Have you played any of the games where good shooters like Oro, Jewer, Plux, Raina, Talespin, ZP, Bobo etc. were on the same team?

I don´t consider myself a good shooter but I´m flattered you remember me though:D


Would be fun to schedule some organized games of good vampires vs humans. It'd be a great way to determine what abilities people use/discard, and how the "all-in at the same time" tactic works for four good vampires. Anyone interested could form a team to participate as well.]

That´s indeed a good idea I don´t like to play against low level players cause it is always unballanced. How about you guys join my group War for Nosgoth and we can schedule something up? Those who are interested can enter the chat and we can agree on a date and who will be playing in which team. I can send you invites if you want :)

Tube_reaver - I´ve sent you request on steam (hopefully it´s you )

Tube_Reaver
23rd Dec 2013, 12:22
Tube_reaver - I´ve sent you request on steam (hopefully it´s you :D )

If the avatar pic is of the toon version of Kain with a shocked expression after opening a door, then yes that's me :D


Fair warning to everyone I have only had 6 days worth of play time, as I got invited on the 13th, so not got many unlocks unfortunately.
I play alchemist a ton, so I got a couple of unlocks for her (I tell you, 2 alchemists watching each others back is a deadly combo, tried it with a friend)
I also play mostly sentinel on vamp side, though no unlocks yet, find the base kit pretty good.

Oroibahazopi
23rd Dec 2013, 13:20
Some show matches with the internal testers would be jolly.

cmstache
23rd Dec 2013, 14:33
Might I recommend the ventrilo for this? And Plux, langs, strike, and myself are always wanting good games. And Hiru if he doesn't "quit"

jestdoit
25th Dec 2013, 05:42
That´s indeed a good idea I don´t like to play against low level players cause it is always unballanced. How about you guys join my group War for Nosgoth and we can schedule something up? Those who are interested can enter the chat and we can agree on a date and who will be playing in which team. I can send you invites if you want :)


http://steamcommunity.com/groups/nosgothpug

So far that's the most active Nosgoth alpha group. The main Nosgoth group is filled with hundreds of people who aren't testers, so that won't work. If you can get everyone to join your group, great. Either way, someone really should make an official Nosgoth alpha group and sticky/put it in the news so testers are aware of it, instead of random people friending each other/spamming invites. Organizing matches is a pain atm.