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auric
21st Apr 2008, 09:01
Some things I like to see improved or add to Part 3.

EDITED
News/Readings

Television / Radio
These can be activated to watch/hear some news, for people who are not into reading. ;)
Get some nice visuals too.

Telephones
There are times where the phone rings, it'll be fun to answer them. :D
Like one time in DX1 with Icarus.

Reading out loud
Or better still, have the character read out for us to listen.
Evert paper or book we right click, we can hear him read it out, this option can be switch on / off in 'options'.

So we could listen to it while doing something else.


1. Also, the player actions should affect the player's responses. For example, in DX1 I read through every newspaper, book, and kiosk that I found. Yet, JC mentioned, in some conversation, that he was not much into books. I want my choice of reading, or not reading, books and other resources to change my character's responses.
1. Ya, or how when talking about current issues, the more stuff u read the more details the character can respond with.


Conversation
Contradictory responses

There are some moments, where the dialog contradicts what we were doing.
Take for example, in DX1: Liberty Island
The NSF leader call us a "Killing Machine"
we should have a chance to respond to that, like if we haven't killed a soul yet, we can counter that for fun & hear his response. Who knows maybe show some understanding.
:)

Style
Cold
Normal
Sarcastic
Serious

We may also do it with a certain style each having different kind of response, even a simple 'hmmph'.
:D

Method of accomplishment
There are instances where people suggests how to kill someone, so I was hoping to hear different responses to how we actually kill the person in question.
Like they are talking about the end result of the crime scene, how they see a dart poke through bla bla bla
or the throat is slit, or whatever.
:)

Cumulative responses
Our reputation precedes us.
Our past actions effects some people's responses, those who've heard of it. Not everyone knows about it.

Or maybe people we spared can be seen again later.

Maybe also, they have trust issues the way we contradict our responses & choices. That was done quite interestingly in DX2

Combat chater
Rather than have everyone say the same thing while looking for us or attacking or when running away, each should have their own individual background character chatter.
That includes type of cries (running/dying).

Weapons Handling
Dual Functions
Some if not all weapons should have 2 functions.
Like switching from single shot to burst shot.
Or plugging a silencer on a pistol, don't need to switch weapons from noisy to silent, can just have the same gun for both.

Reload/Ammo Replenish
Detailed reloading action
Old ammo clip replenishment

Iron Sight
Minor zoom, more personalized targeting.

Combat
Grabbing
Not sure if this can work in a First Person Shooter.

There are instances where there are 2 people near by each other and I clearly can't kill one without the scream alerting to the other person or the fall of the K.O. body will be noticed if the person turns before we could hide it.
By grabbing like Splinter Cell, we could pull the person away quickly & either K.O. or kill the person silently.

Or atleast give a quick silent killing method, is snapping the neck quick quiet?
Or rather than a simple back stab we can have, when near the person from behind & stand up, we can see the left hand ready to grab with a knife/etc. on the right hand.
left click & we see the left hand grab the mouth & the right kill him by whatever method, either a stab on the chest or slit the neck.
Not necessary see the hand move forward, just see the target move backwards like being pulled.
If no weapon on the hand, it can have (Left Click) neck snapping move (Right Click) choke or something till K.O.

Drop kill
I just tested this in DX1 & realized we can indeed kill by doing this, but its a bit unrealistic but a good attempt.

To kill, one must step on them & stay there long enough till they die, lol
every second it hurts them, so long as ur on them.
If you drop high enough, it'll kill them instantly.
I'm sure its the same if we carry a heavy object & drop on them. :D

In part 3, it'll be nice if the target falls down when we drop on them. :)
If they still lives, they can get back up.

Awareness
Blood
Blood stains remain until someone sees it, than it disappears afterwards (game performance issue) I don't mind if it remains, but that may lag, which is why they made it disappear in the first place.

Bullet marks & cracks
Marks / cracks / door / light / etc.
anything out of the ordinary happened, rises their suspicions.

Hunt for the player
3 lvls
When they notices the player or a dead body or blood or anything out of the ordinary, they'll search for us, eventually they'll stop & head back.

Rather than them notice us again & search like this is the first time, they should say things like
"he's back", "there it is again", "I'll get you this time"
the 2nd time, they'll take longer time for them to calm down.
the 3rd time, they'll hunt so long that it feels like it won't end.

That's all I can think of at the moment, wanted to post this first.
:)


2. Also, I want that feeling of Thief1 back. The AI in Thief1 was quite realistic (though, probably not in every aspect) in that if one of the guards saw you, but he got hurt before he could kill you, he would run to get his buddies, and he knew where to go and get them, and then they would be looking for you, and the whole place would forever be on the lookout for you. I would like to see something like that in DX3.
2. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory have that kind of effect ur describing too. It was great.
In that game, any changes in the environment will get the AI's attention & follow a trail which may lead to the player (if he/she hadn't left already)

Reflection
Water reflection is not necessary, but mirrors on the other hand.
Gun hold - would be nice to see a proper reflection, is there any game that shows the exact reflection of what the person do & how they hold the weapon?

Rear view - People standing in front of the mirror may see us coming if we're standing, if we're crouching they can't see us, but may realise the door opened if the door is in the view of the mirror.

Code Mystery
If someone wants to sell or got info on the code of a door or something, if we open it with using the actual code itself without asking from anyone by (saving & loading or memory after restarting the game)
the person who wants to sell it, would ask how u know the code or something.

A fun joke arc in the game, the mystery grows & the character himself keeps wondering how he/she knows about it.

Messages
There are instances where I read datacubes where there's a message to pass to someone like Beth Duclare to Nicolette Duclare.
I always wanted to see the daughter's response if we pass on the message.

Rapid dialog
For when we repeat the game, I hope its possible to fast forward the chatter, so we can go through them fast.
:)

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 01:06
NPC Conversation
In addition, they actually doing something sometimes. Like 2 people talking about doing something other than attacking one another, then they go do it. If that gets them killed, we got a choice to interfear or not.

Enemy chatter, depending on situation, location, NPC's background each have random stuff to say during a fight. Like a coward or blood thirsty person, or if the person is a family person can hear him worrying if he/she's going to die.

Water Fountain
When drinking, we can click & hold the button down for a long continuous fast drink healing. Rather than clicking 1 by 1.

Gore Level
Like some people have mentioned, a nice realistic effects of what happens when a person gets shot, stab, etc.

Gary_Savage
22nd Apr 2008, 01:16
Some things I like to see improved or add to Part 3.


Conversation
Contradictory responses

There are some moments, where the dialog contradicts what we were doing.
Take for example, in DX1: Liberty Island
The NSF leader call us a "Killing Machine"
we should have a chance to respond to that, like if we haven't killed a soul yet, we can counter that for fun & hear his response. Who knows maybe show some understanding.
:)


Also, the player actions should affect the player's responses. For example, in DX1 I read through every newspaper, book, and kiosk that I found. Yet, JC mentioned, in some conversation, that he was not much into books. I want my choice of reading, or not reading, books and other resources to change my character's responses.

___________________________________________________________

Also, I want that feeling of Thief1 back. The AI in Thief1 was quite realistic (though, probably not in every aspect) in that if one of the guards saw you, but he got hurt before he could kill you, he would run to get his buddies, and he knew where to go and get them, and then they would be looking for you, and the whole place would forever be on the lookout for you. I would like to see something like that in DX3.

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 01:37
1. Also, the player actions should affect the player's responses. For example, in DX1 I read through every newspaper, book, and kiosk that I found. Yet, JC mentioned, in some conversation, that he was not much into books. I want my choice of reading, or not reading, books and other resources to change my character's responses.

___________________________________________________________

2. Also, I want that feeling of Thief1 back. The AI in Thief1 was quite realistic (though, probably not in every aspect) in that if one of the guards saw you, but he got hurt before he could kill you, he would run to get his buddies, and he knew where to go and get them, and then they would be looking for you, and the whole place would forever be on the lookout for you. I would like to see something like that in DX3.

1. Ya, or how when talking about current issues, the more stuff u read the more details the character can respond with.

2. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory have that kind of effect ur describing too. It was great.
In that game, any changes in the environment will get the AI's attention & follow a trail which may lead to the player (if he/she hadn't left already)
:)

Gary_Savage
22nd Apr 2008, 01:39
1. Ya, or how when talking about current issues, the more stuff u read the more details the character can respond with.


That is a BEAUTIFUL suggestion!

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 02:20
Television / Radio
These can be activated to watch/hear some news, for people who are not into reading. ;)
Get some nice visuals too.

Telephones
There are times where the phone rings, it'll be fun to answer them. :D
Like one time in DX1 with Icarus.

minus0ne
22nd Apr 2008, 02:23
Television / Radio
These can be activated to watch/hear some news, for people who are not into reading. ;)
Get some nice visuals too.

Telephones
There are times where the phone rings, it'll be fun to answer them. :D
Like one time in DX1 with Icarus.
TV and radio was very well done in Vampire The Masquarade: Bloodlines, I'd love to see them take a similar approach.

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 02:32
I haven't played that game in a long time, forgotten how they did it there.

Reading out loud
Or better still, have the character read out for us to listen.
Every paper, book & datacubes we right click, we can hear him read it out, this option can be switch on / off in 'options'.
Computer emails, that we have to read ourselves.

So we could listen to it while doing something else.

pHdeus
22nd Apr 2008, 02:48
You are getting into what Deus EX 1 and to some degree Deus Ex IW achieved. It is in some ways it is what to keep and toss, but not only that. It is creating representations of real places, but more than that also. It is the physical world of objects and weapons that can be manipulated in a believable way. It is people being human enough in conversations and actions, and coherence and consistency in a discourse. Deus EX after all is a social and cultural space.

Because Deus Ex 1 was limited, it could only provide a minimal world, without any embellishments. I am glad of this at this moment. Otherwise, it's quality might have been blamed on something technological.

One very good place to look for that essence or "world" is in Hell's Kitchen; one very clear example of a world within the bigger Deus EX World. In Hell's Kitchen, you encounter the Underworld Tavern, and meet bar tenders, customers, and Jock who talks and reveals his very pragmatic outlook on life from his tendency to only talk if you buy him beers to is ability to keep secrets that further his job and career. Also, there's Joe Green and his rather abrasive personality. Outside, you and UNATCO troopers engage in a fire fight with the NSF. There are several streets and plaza etc. Not big, but just big enough and varied enough. You learn how to find Smuggler from one or more people. You see Paul's apartment and encounter hostage takers at some point n the process. You see the free (?) clinic and its discourses, and its not so free Medkits. And of course you get the means to continue on to the location of the generator. And the Ton with its variety of physical spaces and intersect the world of the owner an his daughter there or on the street. It is a surprisingly rich and coherent world that is convincing enough to be real, even while everything is flawed.

The fascinating thing is that everything about DEUS EX is flawed an yet it creates series of social and physical worlds that are believable enough to be believed. The social and combat dances are flawed, yet somehow, good enough to make JC Denton a believable and coherent being in those worlds within the bigger DEUS EX World.

serene_chaos
22nd Apr 2008, 04:19
Not sure if this can work in a First Person Shooter.

There are instances where there are 2 people near by each other and I clearly can't kill one without the scream alerting to the other person or the fall of the K.O. body will be noticed if the person turns before we could hide it.
By grabbing like Splinter Cell, we could pull the person away quickly & either K.O. or kill the person silently.

Or atleast give a quick silent killing method, is snapping the neck quick quiet?
Or rather than a simple back stab we can have, when near the person from behind & stand up, we can see the left hand ready to grab with a knife/etc. on the right hand.
left click & we see the left hand grab the mouth & the right kill him by whatever method, either a stab on the chest or slit the neck.
Not necessary see the hand move forward, just see the target move backwards like being pulled.
If no weapon on the hand, it can have (Left Click) neck snapping move (Right Click) choke or something till K.O.

Drop kill
I just tested this in DX1 & realized we can indeed kill by doing this, but its a bit unrealistic but a good attempt.


all this stuff was done awesomely in The Chronicles of Rid****: Escape from Butcher Bay, in 1st person.

[edit: what the hell!? can't even say rid****?]

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 04:23
Cool, if can grab someone in FPS, that's nice.
:)

Blade_hunter
22nd Apr 2008, 08:21
Most of your ideas are interesting but in a topic about interactivity we have suggested something like your own ideas; hear some new put on / off the TV using mobile phones etc ....
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75441

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 08:46
Haven't manage to read them all, but I'm sure many have the same/similar ideas, just want to list them all down in 1 post, easier to see, than expecting someone to have been through all the other posts to ensure they don't miss something.
:)

Fen
22nd Apr 2008, 10:06
Water Fountain
When drinking, we can click & hold the button down for a long continuous fast drink healing. Rather than clicking 1 by 1.


Lol. This wont and shouldnt be changed. The water fountain is not a medbot. Its there to be a tedious way to increase your health. Something that exists that a desperate person can use, but most of the time is not bothered with.

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 10:12
Lol. This wont and shouldnt be changed. The water fountain is not a medbot. Its there to be a tedious way to increase your health. Something that exists that a desperate person can use, but most of the time is not bothered with.

Not asking for a jump in healing.
Just a more rapid rate compare to the DX1, but still takes time waiting while holding the button down.
:)

Fen
22nd Apr 2008, 10:17
Not asking for a jump in healing.
Just a more rapid rate compare to the DX1, but still takes time waiting while holding the button down.
:)

But it wouldnt be a pain in the ass. Which is what they were aiming for.

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 10:52
But it wouldnt be a pain in the ass. Which is what they were aiming for.

Ya, but I don't see what's the point, since Sodas, Candy, alcohols, etc. can have the same results but all much quicker than the fountain.
anyway that day is over. :)

Hoping for them to make it more realistic now which is/should be the aim of every games.
It's still troublesome, as its limited.

Drinks/Foods (very limited) - Fountains (Limited) - Bots (Infinite but time consuming)

But considering this is a prequel, & they said those bots are new in DX1, so the Fountains should be the best healing method as the bots don't exist, lol

serene_chaos
22nd Apr 2008, 11:03
whatever happened to good ol' bandages?
or field-medical supplies in your knife handle, Rambo style!

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 11:04
whatever happened to good ol' bandages?
or field-medical supplies in your knife handle, Rambo style!

All that's in Med kits.
;)

serene_chaos
22nd Apr 2008, 11:14
hmm, i wonder whether the health system will be 'traditional', or the new sort of 'pain' system, that the kids seem to be so fond of lately.
things like max payne (i think), halo, etc, where you take 'pain damage', which slowly goes away. in effect, your health recharges.
or theres the 'bleeding system', where youre health drops for a period of time after injury, 'bleeding'. and stops dropping after enough time has passed or you bandage the wound.
personally i like the Riddik health system. theres 6 or so smaller health bars, and once the first disappears the second begins decreasing. if the person stops shooting at you with a bar halfway down, that bar will recharge, but any bars that have completely diminished can only be recharged via a healing station.
its kinda hard to explain.

auric
22nd Apr 2008, 11:50
hmm, i wonder whether the health system will be 'traditional', or the new sort of 'pain' system, that the kids seem to be so fond of lately.
things like max payne (i think), halo, etc, where you take 'pain damage', which slowly goes away. in effect, your health recharges.
or theres the 'bleeding system', where youre health drops for a period of time after injury, 'bleeding'. and stops dropping after enough time has passed or you bandage the wound.
personally i like the Riddik health system. theres 6 or so smaller health bars, and once the first disappears the second begins decreasing. if the person stops shooting at you with a bar halfway down, that bar will recharge, but any bars that have completely diminished can only be recharged via a healing station.
its kinda hard to explain.

Well whatever bleeding method they choose, they should bring back DX1's separate limbs hitpoints.

Are legs (Crawl when both 0) & hands (lower accuracy) the only limbs that have side-effects when injured?
Are there any side-effects when the head or torso gets injured?
:)

Blade_hunter
22nd Apr 2008, 15:03
I don't know why the fountain shouldn't change the manner of use since the first game, in duke nukem we have the same thing, but you must break the fountain to get more water and use the continuous heal.
Most of times I used the fails and defaults of the game for my advantage in the NSF generator for example to return back to the free clinic. I madded with crates a passage to go back to heal me the level is madded in the manner you can't go back after a specific location in the level, and an other proof when you finish the mission you have jock inside the bar and in the chopper
I think not blocking some passages after your passage are a good thing to for realism and allows more missions if we want.

serene_chaos
22nd Apr 2008, 15:58
Well whatever bleeding method they choose, they should bring back DX1's separate limbs hitpoints.

Are legs (Crawl when both 0) & hands (lower accuracy) the only limbs that have side-effects when injured?
Are there any side-effects when the head or torso gets injured?
:)

i didnt know about the no-hands side effect. it'd be better if you lost the ability to hold weapons and, like, crates and stuff.
and once you lose your torso or head, the side effect is death.

perhaps we could have, individual sections of the body slowly recharge indepentantly, but once theyre gone theyre gone. maybe you could be able to mod particular parts of your body to recharge faster or be resistant to damage?

Voltaire
22nd Apr 2008, 16:05
i didnt know about the no-hands side effect. it'd be better if you lost the ability to hold weapons and, like, crates and stuff.
and once you lose your torso or head, the side effect is death.

perhaps we could have, individual sections of the body slowly recharge indepentantly, but once theyre gone theyre gone. maybe you could be able to mod particular parts of your body to recharge faster or be resistant to damage?

Has anybody forwarded the idea of dual-wielding/akimbo stuff? Not just 2x SMGs or something, but multitool in left hand and pistol in right. Obviously not sniper rifle left and LAW right.

I'm not saying it's what I want to happen, just wondering what the general feeling is to that kind of gameplay. It's more realistic...

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 00:20
i didnt know about the no-hands side effect. it'd be better if you lost the ability to hold weapons and, like, crates and stuff.
and once you lose your torso or head, the side effect is death.

perhaps we could have, individual sections of the body slowly recharge indepentantly, but once theyre gone theyre gone. maybe you could be able to mod particular parts of your body to recharge faster or be resistant to damage?

The hands part, I was referring to it when badly damaged, not "no hands"
I don't know what will happen when both hands got shot out though but when they are injured, accuracy decreases.

Ofcourse if the head & torso is gone, they're dead. But what happens when they are only badly injured?
Is accuracy more lower for head or something?
:)

serene_chaos
23rd Apr 2008, 03:50
Has anybody forwarded the idea of dual-wielding/akimbo stuff? Not just 2x SMGs or something, but multitool in left hand and pistol in left. Obviously not sniper rifle left and LAW right.


I'm not a fan. I mean, yes, in real life you can hold two things, but i think in games theres a limit. some compromise between absolute realism and playability. when you say a pistol and a multitool, im thinking of making multitools and lockpicks a sort of peripheral device, something that you dont equip, but is always equiped. or a setup like the metal gear games.
I prefer how it is in the DX games currently.

And sorry Auric, i dont know.

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 04:16
Has anybody forwarded the idea of dual-wielding/akimbo stuff? Not just 2x SMGs or something, but multitool in left hand and pistol in left. Obviously not sniper rifle left and LAW right.

I'm not saying it's what I want to happen, just wondering what the general feeling is to that kind of gameplay. It's more realistic...

Dual wielding is nice looking, but unnecessary.
If we do have it, it'll have to be the same category (weapons) for example.
Because if we put a pistol on 1 hand & a multitool on the 2nd, we will not get the benefit of the 2 buttons on the mouse.

As in, the pistol can't have 2 functions.

EDITED
Weapons Handling
Dual Functions
Some if not all weapons should have 2 functions.
Like switching from single shot to burst shot.
Or plugging a silencer on a pistol, don't need to switch weapons from noisy to silent, can just have the same gun for both.

Reload/Ammo Replenish
Detailed reloading action
Old ammo clip replenishment

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 06:03
Dual wielding weapons and Items is an interesting Idea that can be enjoyable if executed correctly. However, it needs to be done correctly and with clear goals in mind. i.e. the gameplay and scenarios should lend themselves to this sort of gameplay in someway. It should not be a novelty that they add for the hell of it.

The downside (IMO) to dual-wielding is that it only encourages 'rambo-style' gameplay (with regards to weapons) and this leads to gamers taking the easy solution instead of exploring and moving around stealthily. But, If thats your thing then dual-wielding would rock.

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 06:27
It's a nice thing to have the option open though.
It will at least invite rambo style people to join in the fun.

After all, Deus Ex is a freedom of choice game
Splinter Cell & Hitman should be silent too if they want to look like a professional in their job but we can go killing if we want to.

I'm currently trying out the killing path in DX1.
Not including the civilians.
Been playing silent so often, never know how it feels to actually use the standard pistol (non-silent), lol
Which I realised, that I was able to hit headshots afar with a pistol (without scope) better than a sniper.

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 06:52
I agree. If one has the option to either dual wield or not it would allow more people to be happy with the game. But please Eidos, dont screw it up if you do dual-wielding.

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 06:55
I agree. If one has the option to either dual wield or not it would allow more people to be happy with the game. But please Eidos, dont screw it up if you do dual-wielding.

Ya & also, please don't let all this feature stuff ruin the concentration in writing the story.
:)

Blade_hunter
23rd Apr 2008, 08:57
Remember DX was the first game that alloys you to be silent, brutal, and mixed type.

for the FPS mode we can use several options to allows more play style ....

Like auric I propose some identical ideas but I try to propose ideas that can agrees more players I think.
But there is a lot of them and perhaps some players will say oh it's too much things :eek: !


1/Weapon functions and spec's

- Automatic weapons have full auto / burst - tracer / single shot

- Weapons like shotguns or with multiple cannon can shot one / two / three and four cartridges on a single shot this feature depends of the weapons specs

- Energy weapons can shot normal charged energy burst or an over loaded energy burst or a low charged energy burst.

- For gas and liquid propelled chemical weapons we can choose the pressure between the max and the min pressure to expand the range or reduce (this upgrade or reduce the ammo consumption depending on the pressure selected)

-For the grenades, we can keep the LAM functions and add the secondary fire and it's functions are switched between
° Timed grenade-proximity mine / Impact grenade
° Timed mine / IR laser trip mine
° Remote mine / trigger
These functions depends on the grenade not all the grenades have all functions

-For grenade Launchers
We can choose the number of bounces when the weapon is in bounce mode it depends of the grenade launchers if we can't choose the number of bounces we can choose the time when the grenade will explode

*- The sixth features seen need only one button to work because that concerns different kind of weapons


Custom secondary fire for each weapon

Some fire arms have one or more functions like the:

-Under barrel cannon
-Flashlight / laser sight
-Melee attack (like using a pistol to knock your enemy)
-Sniper scope / iron sight
-Change ammo 1 - 2
-Add / Remove silencer
-Special function (like the DX 2 RL primary normal rocket - secondary radio controlled rocket)

All these functions are selectable if your weapon have more than two functions anyway we have direct access buttons for these functions DX 1 have the change ammo; sniper scope and laser sight button

For the grenades and tools we can add a sort of backup to main weapon on secondary fire or in a button if we won't use the special functions of the grenades and allows a quick switch to a fire arm

Projectile functions

For projectile launchers (mine layer, grenade launchers, rocket launchers) we can choose between these functions
- Impact
- Bounce/Timed
- Bounce/Proximity
- Proximity mine
- IR Laser trip mine
- Remote controlled mine / grenade
- Calculated explosion projectile
- Radio controlled projectile
- Heat seeking
- Laser guidance

The laser guidance needs only a laser sight to be used when we activate it on the equipped launcher the rocket becomes a laser guided rocket launcher, the rocket must have a laser guidance feature of course some rockets are unguided even if they are used by the GEP gun, the WP rockets for example

Some rocket launchers can use their rockets as grenades but they have limited functions if we want specialized grenades we must use a grenade launcher.

The weapons haven't all the functions at once of course but these functions can be encountered to this category of weapons.

For normal fire arms we can get a glass destabilizer ammo, EMP cartridges, etc

Melee weapons
These weapons have only one or two functions per weapon
the functions are the next
-Strike
-Block
-Throw

For the trowing knives we have Throw and Strike functions
For a sword we have Strike and Block functions

2/ Weapon management

The fire arms have recoil and when you fire a projectile the weapon is more difficult to aim correctly

The reload each weapon need to be reloaded we can saw a true and realistic reloading sequence if it be possible
Some weapons have 2 reloading sequences for the same ammo (energy and chemical weapons only)

Overheating some weapons can overheat and stop fire or stay in malfunction during some seconds the silenced weapons have tis inconvenient wen they are automatic weapons.

The aim we can use an iron sight to get more accuracy the scope function can ensure this function when the weapon has no scope.

The ammo can be one for all weapons or multiple on universal ammo mode on changing ammo function we change the projectile function

3/ Weapon management options

Static aim (like DX 2 or old FPS) / Improved DX 1 aiming system / DX 1 aiming system / Realistic aim system

No reloads / DX 1 reloads / True reloading system

Overheating gesture / no Overheating

Multiple ammo / Universal ammo

These options allows each players to play with they're style and options they wants.

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 09:16
Nice :)

now we got
Gameplay list & Weapons list

Tracer Tong
23rd Apr 2008, 10:41
Most of these ideas are very far-fetched and too realistic for a game IMHO.

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 10:59
Most of these ideas are very far-fetched and too realistic for a game IMHO.

Ya, not that they have to have it all at once, like the game, the producers got choices to make on what to add as features. ;)

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 11:19
Some great ideas. As Tracer Tong said however, way too complex. But it is great to have so many ideas out there to get the imagination flowing back in Montreal.

Nathan2000
23rd Apr 2008, 11:46
Like auric I propose some identical ideas but I try to propose ideas that can agrees more players I think.
But there is a lot of them and perhaps some players will say oh it's too much things :eek: !
You're right. There's freaking too much of them. It's so much, that there's no way, the controls can handle it, even if we make them context-sensitive.

I don't think, we need such details, like how many slugs the gun shoots. The rule is that automatic rifle shoots bursts and semi-auto weapons shoot single shots, that's enough. Real soldiers may want to have a choice, but we carry more and more varied weapons than them, so we can choose anyway.

I find the sword's blocking feature interesting. What if I block a Dragon's Tooth with an ordinary sword. Should it break?:eek:

Blade_hunter
23rd Apr 2008, 13:03
It depends if you add a weapon resistance feature or not.
Perhaps after three shots but the problem with this feature is the weapon maintenance. and if we add this feature it should be realistic to add weapon maintenance. And I don't think some players wants weapon maintenance If it's madded I don't want a weapon that breaks so often as SS2
The most interesting thing is when you use a crowbar against an hammer :D
Perhaps is it better making a poll with multiple votes ? we can show more easily the opinions of each person

serene_chaos
23rd Apr 2008, 13:15
am i the only one who didnt like all the new grenades intorduced in IW? i prefer the good old days, LAMs, EMPs and Gas grenades, and each can function as a mine. having grenades and mines seperate is too much of a hassle, don't you think?
And spiderbombs; nice idea but wtf?

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 13:35
am i the only one who didnt like all the new grenades intorduced in IW? i prefer the good old days, LAMs, EMPs and Gas grenades, and each can function as a mine. having grenades and mines seperate is too much of a hassle, don't you think?
And spiderbombs; nice idea but wtf?

ya, i like the basics, especially scramble G., that was unique

gamer0004
23rd Apr 2008, 14:44
As long as they keep the right-mouse button for using items in the world it's fine.
'Iron sight' should be the middle mouse button.
Oh and you should be able to unequip items with one button. Not necessarily the right-mouse button, as when you miss an item and click you instany unequip the item (as sometimes happend in DX).

Voltaire
23rd Apr 2008, 14:50
...Oh and you should be able to unequip items with one button. Not necessarily the right-mouse button, as when you miss an item and click you instany unequip the item (as sometimes happend in DX).

I agree entirely here. Occasionally if I were fleeing an enemy (normally a bot), I'd miss the door handle and holster my gun, causing a plentitude of problems. Did DX1 have customisable controls? I forget. :scratch:

serene_chaos
23rd Apr 2008, 15:25
Did DX1 have customisable controls? I forget. :scratch:

yes it did, but only to a degree. i would have loved to have been able to assign my side mouse buttons to things.

Voltaire
23rd Apr 2008, 20:48
Two realism points:

1) Something that kinda bugged me about DX1 was the matter of sleep. JC Denton did all his missions in the space of like 2 days, something stupid like that. A UNATCO troop even remarks on it (the guy on the door who you went to the academy with). JC is always globe-trotting with no let up between missions. Would this really happen?

2) In a lot of games now, there is an occasional remark from the player. Like if they step into a trashed hotel room they might quip "someone had a rough night". And I'm not talking about a Filme Noire style narration here either, I doubt that would work.
I'm not sure of what I make of the concept, and whether it would suit the new DX (anti-)hero, but it might be cool. What do you guys think?

serene_chaos
24th Apr 2008, 02:40
1) Something that kinda bugged me about DX1 was the matter of sleep. JC Denton did all his missions in the space of like 2 days, something stupid like that. A UNATCO troop even remarks on it (the guy on the door who you went to the academy with). JC is always globe-trotting with no let up between missions. Would this really happen?

If they changed it, it wouldnt feel like a DX game anymore. if our character sleeps or takes toilet breaks then the game would be broken into chapters or 'levels', not streamlined as it is. Now, perhaps if day and night cycled in real time (or, double-speed-real-time, or something) like the 3D GTA games...


2) In a lot of games now, there is an occasional remark from the player. Like if they step into a trashed hotel room they might quip "someone had a rough night". And I'm not talking about a Filme Noire style narration here either, I doubt that would work.
I'm not sure of what I make of the concept, and whether it would suit the new DX (anti-)hero, but it might be cool. What do you guys think?
It would help the build the character, but i doubt would help the game. How can that sort of thing *not* be cheesy film noir style, anyway?

auric
29th Apr 2008, 10:54
Reflection
Water reflection is not necessary, but mirrors on the other hand.
Gun hold - would be nice to see a proper reflection, is there any game that shows the exact reflection of what the person do & how they hold the weapon?

Rear view - People standing in front of the mirror may see us coming if we're standing, if we're crouching they can't see us, but may realise the door opened if the door is in the view of the mirror.
:)

serene_chaos
29th Apr 2008, 11:15
with regards to reflections of actions in mirrors, that would require the character model to be the same as, or at least synchronised with, the 1st person models, which is weird, because then people will be walking around with their gun-hand extended. that also means that the model would have to turn on taps and press buttons, so that you could see them do these things in a mirror.

auric
29th Apr 2008, 11:59
with regards to reflections of actions in mirrors, that would require the character model to be the same as, or at least synchronised with, the 1st person models, which is weird, because then people will be walking around with their gun-hand extended. that also means that the model would have to turn on taps and press buttons, so that you could see them do these things in a mirror.

Concerning taps & buttons, we already can see them doing it, he's hand will wave up towards the tap / buttons.

Concerning the holding gun image, don't need to be constant, just a couple of seconds when we draw a weapon than put the hands down.

Deadelus
30th Apr 2008, 11:52
The health in DX1 was so much more in depth than DX2. You got shot in the leg in 2, you were fine, walk it off. But in 1, you were slower, and not exactly straight. Head wounds made your vision blurry. And arms brought down accuracy. That's pretty real to me. As opposed to the good-ol-meter method. Also! in #1 I thought it was cool how the reticules grouped. But in 2, there was no accuracy issues. I'm pretty sure if I was running, I couldn't shoot for sh**.

auric
30th Apr 2008, 22:24
But in 1, you were slower, and not exactly straight.
Head wounds made your vision blurry.

Blurr vision? really?
strange, I never notice that happening when the head was injured.

also the walking is not straight?
I got 1 leg totally shot out & the other is injured, I still can go straight & standing.

I really should go experiment with this in more detail.
:)

jcp28
30th Apr 2008, 22:59
Two realism points:

1) Something that kinda bugged me about DX1 was the matter of sleep. JC Denton did all his missions in the space of like 2 days, something stupid like that. A UNATCO troop even remarks on it (the guy on the door who you went to the academy with). JC is always globe-trotting with no let up between missions. Would this really happen?

It would be kind of weird. Probably the reason they went with this in the first place is that it kind of interrupts the action to tell the main character "go home and get some sleep", after which he suddenly ends up back at UNATCO when the loading of the level is complete. People would be wondering "whut" if that was ever implemented within the particular narrative context.

And another thing, it was always night in Deus Ex. While I understand it was supposed to fit the dystopic mood, I still often wonder if there's any possibility of it taking place at daytime. It doesn't have to be sunny. It could be cloudy with frequent rain. It doesn't matter.

And on double-wielding, it must be implemented correctly. I think that you ought to be able to have a hard time trying to hold a shotgun at the same time you're holding an assault rifle for instance. But if you had a pistol or other small weapon instead, it might not make as much difference.

iWait
1st May 2008, 00:55
I really think some people take realism too far....
Realism to a point is good, but all those small details you (people) are talking about, like reflection, weapon movements, ect... are really tedious for the devs, also, theres a point were realism gets annoying. Do you really want JC to take bathroom breaks and go to sleep? On another thread someone was talking about weapon maintenance.

If you really want realism why not make the main character in DE3 have allergies, that's very realistic. You could be walking down Ellis Island when all of a sudden a bee stings you and your character slowly dies.

jcp28
1st May 2008, 02:46
I really think some people take realism too far....
Realism to a point is good, but all those small details you (people) are talking about, like reflection, weapon movements, ect... are really tedious for the devs, also, theres a point were realism gets annoying. Do you really want JC to take bathroom breaks and go to sleep? On another thread someone was talking about weapon maintenance.

If you really want realism why not make the main character in DE3 have allergies, that's very realistic. You could be walking down Ellis Island when all of a sudden a bee stings you and your character slowly dies.


Of course nobody wants that. The game should remain fun above all else. And if you put in anything like hacking puzzles or weapon maintainance that detract from the fun, then you're making a serious mistake. But it does seems liek there are some environmental details the developers could work on that would make the world look more realistic.

auric
1st May 2008, 09:48
I really think some people take realism too far....
Realism to a point is good, but all those small details you (people) are talking about, like reflection, weapon movements, ect... are really tedious for the devs, also, theres a point were realism gets annoying. Do you really want JC to take bathroom breaks and go to sleep? On another thread someone was talking about weapon maintenance.

If you really want realism why not make the main character in DE3 have allergies, that's very realistic. You could be walking down Ellis Island when all of a sudden a bee stings you and your character slowly dies.

I wouldn't be surprise if eventually we'll have bladder issues. Already we got food eating from STALKER, bladder control from other game genres, not sure if there's already sleep mode for shooters (to heal up or something)
:)

As for allergies, we can still have bee problems without allergies, 'poison'
besides, allergies are for non-Augmented people. Well we can consider them to be allergic to EMP. :D

auric
7th May 2008, 23:04
Code Mystery
If someone wants to sell or got info on the code of a door or something, if we open it with using the actual code itself without asking from anyone by (saving & loading or memory after restarting the game)
the person who wants to sell it, would ask how u know the code or something.

A fun joke arc in the game, the mystery grows & the character himself keeps wondering how he/she knows about it.

Messages
There are instances where I read datacubes where there's a message to pass to someone like Beth Duclare to Nicolette Duclare.
I always wanted to see the daughter's response if we pass on the message.

Rapid dialog
For when we repeat the game, I hope its possible to fast forward the chatter, so we can go through them fast.
:)

serene_chaos
8th May 2008, 02:04
not sure if there's already sleep mode for shooters (to heal up or something)


the elder scrolls games and all those old school d&d clones usually have a sleep thing, to recharge your mana or whatever.
It would have been more realistic if in morrowind and oblivion your fatigue bar starts dropping after a while, until you rest.
But i think sleep is only necessary if you're going to be roaming around a large environment, like the above mentioned elder scrolls games, stalker, etc.

Another point regarding the health system. People say that in DX your vision starts to blur if your head's damaged, but I never noticed. Things like this would be a cool effect if it was made more noticeable.

auric
8th May 2008, 07:33
the elder scrolls games and all those old school d&d clones usually have a sleep thing, to recharge your mana or whatever.
It would have been more realistic if in morrowind and oblivion your fatigue bar starts dropping after a while, until you rest.
But i think sleep is only necessary if you're going to be roaming around a large environment, like the above mentioned elder scrolls games, stalker, etc.

Another point regarding the health system. People say that in DX your vision starts to blur if your head's damaged, but I never noticed. Things like this would be a cool effect if it was made more noticeable.

True, but are those considered as shooters?
it has a party than just an individual.
:)

DXeXodus
8th May 2008, 09:21
True, but are those considered as shooters?
it has a party than just an individual.
:)

No, these aren't shooters. They are pure RPG's, whereas DX is and FPS/RPG hybrid. The only thing you shoot in Oblivion and Morrowind are arrows and fireballs :)

And where in Oblivion and Morrowind do you have a party? you are alone for 99% of the game. Sorry if I misunderstood you :scratch:

auric
8th May 2008, 09:59
:)
I have not played those 2 games, just

D&D Eye of the Beholder I, II & III
Might & Magic
Those also require sleep & have a party.
:)

serene_chaos
8th May 2008, 11:56
I guess i misread the 'shooter' part. I don't know, perhaps i put morrowind and DX in almost the same category, despite their obvious differences.

auric
8th May 2008, 12:02
I guess i misread the 'shooter' part. I don't know, perhaps i put morrowind and DX in almost the same category, despite their obvious differences.

Nah, I think u got it right.

I ask, whether there are any 'shooter' (Deus Ex, Heretic, Hexen, Wolfenstein, Counter Strike, etc. FPS genre) games that included sleeping.

When u mentioned those 2 games, I thought they were like Eye of Beholder party games, since I've never tried those 2 games, but I did saw one of them, but forgotten its a single individual character.
:)

Blade_hunter
25th May 2008, 13:54
About realism I want to speak about sounds this time, because when you hear a minigun from a movie, a game the gun makes a beautiful sound when it shots, on the reality it makes a noise like a driller that punches on a wall.
if someone wants to compare, try to find the predator scene, the terminator scene, a game like UT, and FEAR or even GTA, and compare with this

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=z_k59nAHXv8

some other guns have the same difference but for rifles it's more closer to reality than the minigun sounds

Fen
25th May 2008, 16:00
About realism I want to speak about sounds this time, because when you hear a minigun from a movie, a game the gun makes a beautiful sound when it shots, on the reality it makes a noise like a driller that punches on a wall.
if someone wants to compare, try to find the predator scene, the terminator scene, a game like UT, and FEAR or even GTA, and compare with this

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=z_k59nAHXv8

some other guns have the same difference but for rifles it's more closer to reality than the minigun sounds

This is a situation where youve got to choose between whats realistic and whats better for the game. In this case, its far better to have nicer sounding yet unrealistic sounds for guns.

I wanna play this game with the volume up loud, I dont wanna have to turn down the volume because the gun noises are irritating.

serene_chaos
25th May 2008, 17:11
YES. the IW gun sounds were irritating, just another thing that made the game feel like cheap plastic. I had to make damn sure i picked up the hidden Assassin Pistol, so my gun could sound like an actual gun, rather than a piece of wood splitting.
I also love the option to turn the sounds of guns way up over everything else, since, you know, guns are usually loud. sadly, not may games have this option, though.

Blade_hunter
25th May 2008, 21:57
Most of sounds from DX 2 guns are "cheap" sounds, I agree, the pistol sounds like your description, the pistol from DX 1 has a better sound, the shotgun from DX 2 have a little sound too. the sawed off from DX 1 has a better sound, more powerful
In DX 1 the sound I don't like was for the silenced weapons, because they make the same sound as the mini crossbow. From DX 2 I just liked some sounds like the flamethrower.

serene_chaos
28th May 2008, 14:28
Changing the topic, if y'all don't mind. I could start a new thread, but i can't be bothered.
This is something that a buddy of mine and I have been discussing for some time now.
Imagine, a game which autosaves SUPER-frequently. every 60 seconds, say. So if you get yourself into a difficult situation, you then have to get yourself out of that situation, or you die. I think this would be more true to life, a better simulation of realism, than the "limited number of quicksaves per level" method. I think it would make for more streamlined gameplay.
Perhaps, though, not quite perfect for Deus Ex. But certainly something i'd like to see in some game in the future.

gamer0004
28th May 2008, 16:37
Changing the topic, if y'all don't mind. I could start a new thread, but i can't be bothered.
This is something that a buddy of mine and I have been discussing for some time now.
Imagine, a game which autosaves SUPER-frequently. every 60 seconds, say. So if you get yourself into a difficult situation, you then have to get yourself out of that situation, or you die. I think this would be more true to life, a better simulation of realism, than the "limited number of quicksaves per level" method. I think it would make for more streamlined gameplay.
Perhaps, though, not quite perfect for Deus Ex. But certainly something i'd like to see in some game in the future.

Why? I want to be able to save whenever and wherever! If you want a challenge, you could simply not save often. Like only once every level.

serene_chaos
28th May 2008, 16:59
what i mean is, if you screw something up in real life, you cant go back to an earlier point. you have to go from the screwed up point youre in.
Say youre driving your car, and start to swerve. you'd have to either regain control of the car in the little time you have, or you'll crash. if you die, you cant go back to before entering the car. if you die that's it. and the closest thing a game can give, in my opinion, is to start you off from very close to when you died. Its not about a challenge, its about simulating realism.

Having the option to go back and redo an entire mission because you screwed something up is entirely opposite.

auric
28th May 2008, 21:01
what i mean is, if you screw something up in real life, you cant go back to an earlier point. you have to go from the screwed up point youre in.
Say youre driving your car, and start to swerve. you'd have to either regain control of the car in the little time you have, or you'll crash. if you die, you cant go back to before entering the car. if you die that's it. and the closest thing a game can give, in my opinion, is to start you off from very close to when you died. Its not about a challenge, its about simulating realism.

Having the option to go back and redo an entire mission because you screwed something up is entirely opposite.

That's nice, but can be done without disturbing other players who don't want that option.

Some people just don't save at all to try that out. Get to test ur will power too. ;)

Constant autosave may not give realism feeling, because of the constant interruption, depending how autosave works in that game, some are totally irritating.

rhalibus
28th May 2008, 21:39
I think a simple system that (1) allows you to save at any point, (2) includes quicksave/quickload and (3) autosaves at the beginning of each level is sufficient. Deus Ex didn't even autosave but I had no complaints--although sometimes I was so into the game I forgot to save and cursed the heavens when I died and had to start from two levels back...:)

Jerion
28th May 2008, 23:36
I think a simple system that (1) allows you to save at any point, (2) includes quicksave/quickload and (3) autosaves at the beginning of each level is sufficient. Deus Ex didn't even autosave but I had no complaints--although sometimes I was so into the game I forgot to save and cursed the heavens when I died and had to start from two levels back...:)

oh, the AGONY!

auric
29th May 2008, 03:23
I think a simple system that (1) allows you to save at any point, (2) includes quicksave/quickload and (3) autosaves at the beginning of each level is sufficient. Deus Ex didn't even autosave but I had no complaints--although sometimes I was so into the game I forgot to save and cursed the heavens when I died and had to start from two levels back...:)

And that's all the realism we need in saving & loading.
If we forgot to save, there's no 2nd chance with the latest results. :D

DXeXodus
29th May 2008, 04:10
I agree with Auric and Rhalibus here that a standard game-saving and loading setup is more than adequate. It allows people to play how they want to by either using, or not using savegames. The idea posted by serene_chaos has some merit, but if something like that is going to be in the game it should be an optional thing that one can toggle on or off IMO, otherwise it is too restricting.

auric
29th May 2008, 04:31
If you seriously want an option for a realistic gameplay of no saving, than it should be different, must have some reason for us to try other than the fact we can't save.
maybe different AI, or something.

Blade_hunter
29th May 2008, 22:16
Use some "checkpoints" to make autosaves I think it's fine like when you change level, or on some special places. it can be fine and it's useful if you forget to save your progress.
Like SOF 1 we can choose between unlimited saves or limited by number, you can save when you want but with a limit of saves per level.
I think it can be a better system than using checkpoints to allows saves like some console games
In SOF 1 you can choose the game difficulty or make a custom game, you can choose some options like the number of enemies spawned, size of your inventory, their combat capabilities (strong or weak), the number of save per level, etc...
When you reach a level you have an autosave, when you want to save your progress you can make it in all level parts, but it depends of the difficulty of the game or the number of saves allowed in your custom game choice.

If we use a system with 2 autosaves slots, with 3 quicksave slots and an unlimited number saves or limited by 20 slots but only limited by gameplay options it can be good for all and makes a challenge for everyone or an easier game.

I've proposed a system in an other thread for the saves, I think a "game customization" can be the best thing for all

Vasarto
2nd May 2010, 07:23
Resurrection!

TheUnbeholden
8th May 2010, 07:40
Cumulative responses
Our reputation precedes us.
Our past actions effects some people's responses, those who've heard of it. Not everyone knows about it.

Or maybe people we spared can be seen again later.

Maybe also, they have trust issues the way we contradict our responses & choices. That was done quite interestingly in DX2



And perhaps some people we should have killed when we had the chance. Perhaps they could end up being trouble later on, and sometimes it would have been better to spare a person because they could end up helping you later. Choice and consequence. But what effects are choices is what we know at the time, the more you explore, the more books you read and datacubes you find the more you know. The more you know also expands on the amount you can tell someone. All of this comes down to knowledge, which In my opinion is probably one of the key features of Deus Ex. But sometimes the knowledge we have at the time can be incomplete or false. So we can end up doing someone we find out later to be the wrong thing. There should always be doubt to any action you take. Sometimes even morality comes into the decision making, whether its the good or evil thing to do.