PDA

View Full Version : SDK For DX3 & Crystal Dynamics modding



DX_ADDICT
13th Apr 2008, 22:14
Mornin all,

I really hope that the team at Eidos Montreal put together a good SDK + ConEdit for DX3. Really felt let down when I found out that they were'nt going to release one for IW. Come on Eidos!!! It's what the DX modding community needs to stay alive!!!


Anyone else interested in this ?

Glen

Voltaire
18th Apr 2008, 21:59
Personally, no.
I think that an SDK package would use up valuable programming hours, and the developpers should prioritise DX3 as more important than an edit pack, their marriages and maintenance of personal hygeine.

Plus, if SDK is do-able, doesn't that mean simpler maps in the real game? :scratch: That would be unforgivable if t'were the case.

Blade_hunter
18th Apr 2008, 23:20
The modding can adds some good stuff in a game perhaps it's not important to get it when the game is new but if the deal sells are good they can made one to expand the game's life.
this can allows the modders to make they own stories with the DX universe, and if the game has a full mod support like the unreal engine 1 (UT99 + oldskool amp'd) the modder can make more easily a story and gives you some fun for free.
They can port eventually the previous DX games to the DX 3 engine if they want.

WildcatPhoenix
18th Apr 2008, 23:24
As a modder, I absolutely want an SDK. Eat up development hours? Bah. Shenanigans.

It prolongs the shelf life of a game (by adding years and years of moddable content), it allows your fans to use their own creativity, and it engenders a lot of goodwill among people who have dedicated tons of time and effort into learning to use the tools.

-Wildcat

Inane Mythos
19th Apr 2008, 00:04
Absolutely. An SDK would be brilliant and essential. Agreed with WildCat.

While I don't use the SDK, I really appreciate all the people who do spend their own time making stuff for games.

SemiAnonymous
19th Apr 2008, 01:26
Its a must have, even if they release the game first, then the SDK.

Larington
19th Apr 2008, 08:02
A well documented SDK does wonders for a computer game, the battle call for good SDK functionality is obviously the original Half-Life, well documented and the level design tools were so straightforward to use - It wasn't difficult to learn how to do new things in the level editor for HL1, sadly that hasn't been quite so well replicated in the HL2+ version of the level editor, but ahh well.
If you look at Maya, its not a bad program per se, but learning how to do new things, well, theres so many menus and you basically have to know what you're looking for and the tutorials often aren't very good at giving you that information especially if you're using Maya 2008 and the tutorial was written for an earlier version and certain menu sets have moved somewhere else etc. I'm not a big fan of Maya at the moment as its not particularly straightforward tool in my mind, I suppose thats dictated by the fact that making character models and putting textures on them (etc) ain't exactly easy to implement as toolsets go.

Voltaire
19th Apr 2008, 09:08
OK so maybe I was a little rash to bring all my cards to the table and say there should be no SDK. I realise that there is something of a modding community, which would indeed grow and thrive if a new SDK were released alongside DX3.

I still don't see it happening personally. Maybe an edit pack released a little later, as part of a Gold Edition or something.

minus0ne
19th Apr 2008, 10:42
An SDK is vital to a game like DX3. In the interest of replay value, they should definately release one. It'd be great to couple it with the game, but there's no problem with releasing the SDK a little later either (even the hardcore modders will want to play the game before messing with the SDK anyway).

Nathan2000
19th Apr 2008, 11:36
Personally, no.
I think that an SDK package would use up valuable programming hours, and the developpers should prioritise DX3 as more important than an edit pack, their marriages and maintenance of personal hygeine.

People seem do worry about production resources more than developers do.:nut:

All for SDK! After the game is done, possibility to edit it is a top priority.

Voltaire
19th Apr 2008, 13:48
People seem do worry about production resources more than developers do.:nut:

This is exactly my worry.
But, after consideration, I agree that an edit pack for DX3 would increase longevity (just look at the tiny size of the MP community of DX1 now) and keep it alive. So long as the game does not suffer.

Tracer Tong
19th Apr 2008, 15:37
UnrealED has the best SDK interface I've ever known (compared to Valve's Hammer, which I still, after 2 years, can't control). How can they top that?

Freddo
19th Apr 2008, 17:56
Unfortunately, I think it's very unrealistic to expect a SDK for Deus Ex 3. I would be extremly surprised if it happened.

Blade_hunter
19th Apr 2008, 18:43
I agree with Tracer tong and the unreal ED in the first DX adds a multiplayer, it's not the best, but this multiplayer keep some DX features and is something different than others multiplayer, I've played in it still enjoyable, as the other mods. and with the new engine they can made mods sooner for the tomb raider and add some DX features for example or import lara croft and use JC denton or other things use the tomb raider view.
The dev's have the engine ready, they can add an editor with or wait later for a special edition or later to release a free development pack if the deal sales are good ....

Tracer Tong
20th Apr 2008, 20:27
Wait a second.... I know it's not the same engine, but Tomb Raider: Chronicles had an SDK (unpopular but available)

Dead-Eye
21st Apr 2008, 03:39
It really comes down to the pipeline of Deus Ex 3. Building a game is kinda like reinventing a camera every time you won't to shot a movie. Even with the crystal dynamics engine there would need to be allot of tweaking to make it work with Deus Ex 3 and all the things the team hopes to accomplish. Pretty much the pipeline for the game won't be finished until the game is done, then if the game is popular maybe the might consider refining the pipeline and handing it out as an SDK. But theres almost no way there will be an SDK when the game comes out.

But for all we know Map development could take place inside something like 3ds max, in witch case anyone who was considering doing some SDK work would be out of luck unless they are already a fairly good 3d artiest. On the other hand if crystal dynamics has a map editor it would be a good place for Edios to show it off and get some people to learn it.

GamerX51
16th Aug 2008, 00:59
Does anybody know if there will be an SDK release for DX3? One of the main things that pissed me off about IWar was the fact that there was an SDK released for Thief 3, (which uses almost the exact same engine as IWar, renderer and all...) yet there was no such release for IWar! :mad2:

If there had been an SDK released for IWar, then I feel that the game wouldn't have been such a colossal disappointment, because there are many DX fans out there who are skilled enough at modding that they would have immediately corrected most, if not all of the game's flaws, gameplay and storyline-wise.

K^2
16th Aug 2008, 01:19
Perhaps. Fans did improve graphics quite a bit with custom texture packs.

I don't think anybody knows if there will be an SDK, but the fact that TR with the similar engine gets released prior to DX3 means that there will be a lot more people working on various editors and converters by hacking the game's resource files. So hopefully, there will be some community content either way.

Romeo
16th Aug 2008, 02:05
Why is you font so big? Seriously, you need to just chill right out with that setting, hombre.

Maximus
16th Aug 2008, 07:45
Yeah, don't rock the font boat ;) We're all 11-point arials right here so if you wanna stay, you'll fit in with us. Maybe in a year, you can graduate to Times New Roman. MAYBE.

Larington
16th Aug 2008, 08:03
To answer the question, we just don't know. Plus, I suspect the developers have other things to worry about right now, like desperately trying to meet the extremely high demands of an anxious fan base many of which may have conflicting requirements for what they want from the game (Obv most of the outspoken folks on the Inet want something more like DX1, but there are a small number of people who'd prefer something streamlined like DX2 (Disclaimer: I'm with the DX1 crowd) so yeah, altogether difficult for them right now). Really, its more of a question to ask when the developers have released the game and they have the time to look into whether it will be worth the effort (based on sales and stuff like that).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
16th Aug 2008, 09:34
We have a thread regarding SDK and fan missions:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=74427

:)

K^2
16th Aug 2008, 09:47
MissDenton, were you a member of Ion Storm's board under same or similar name around the time of IW release? The talk of SDK seemed to trigger some sort of a memory.

GamerX51
16th Aug 2008, 09:57
Sorry about the big font. :( I didn't know what the standard size was here, so I just went for maximum readability. :o I'll try to stick to the defaults from now on.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question. Personally, I don't really see why we cant have it both ways. (DX1's atmosphere, mood, and character development, with DX2's streamlining) I mean, are they really mutually exclusive? I think a lot of the fan base really doesn't know what they want themselves, and are giving the devs a lot of mixed messages as a result.

I think it would be a better idea for us to keep our expectations in check until the devs start giving us some solid info about the game, and then giving them *reasonable* feedback. One of the big reasons why it's taken this long for Eidos to do a sequel for DX is because of the enormous backlash that resulted from the IWar fiasco.

The DX fan base means well, but if they aren't careful about how they give their criticism, they'll end up scaring Eidos away from DX forever. :( I mean, why do another DX game if all the fans are gonna do is whine and moan?

Sorry if that came across the wrong way, but I just want the devs to succeed this time. I didn't mean to offend anybody.

Jerion
16th Aug 2008, 13:47
I'm fairly certain that gamers always know what they don't want, but never have a clue what they do want. I'm confident that Eidos has learned that by now, and has gotten very good at scanning through the 99% garbage ideas suggested by fans, and at picking up on and thinking about the 1% of ideas that often turn out to be helpful to the game.

So don't worry about the fans scaring them off. I'm pretty sure that they just ignore all the bull about "DON'T MAKE IT IW!". You can ***** all you want about how IW sucked and how you don't want DX3 to look anything like it, but it won't change a damn thing because the Devs already got that message a long time ago.

So save your breath. We know that people don't want another IW. Fair enough. Moving on...

As to an SDK- I'd love for there to be an SDK for DX3. I would start playing around with it the second I finished the game itself. :)

jordan_a
16th Aug 2008, 18:04
SDK thread already (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=76536)

GamerX51
16th Aug 2008, 23:31
So save your breath. We know that people don't want another IW. Fair enough. Moving on...

I wasn't criticizing IWar in my previous posts. I actually think it was a pretty damn good game, all things considered. :) I also think that there is much in IWar that the devs could learn from and adapt for use in DX3. :thumbsup:

DXeXodus
18th Aug 2008, 04:09
Merged threads. Please check for existing topics before posting a new thread.

AaronJ
18th Aug 2008, 05:09
You hear that whistle?................



....................that's the sound of the impending massive marauding ****storm if this doesn't have an SDK.

Absentia
18th Aug 2008, 08:35
You hear that whistle?................



....................that's the sound of the impending massive marauding ****storm if this doesn't have an SDK.

Lol.

From my point of view, I wouldn't mind too much if there was no SDK, as I would not use it. But there is quite a large modding community for DX, and there are also some great mods and fan-missions etc ("Burden of 80 Proof" is brilliant) so I definitely understand the need. I'm not going to even begin to speculate on how easy or how hard it would be to create an SDK using the engine, because I think so many people seem to have their own ideas about the engine when they essentially know very little about it.

AaronJ
18th Aug 2008, 15:52
lol, all that's out there for TR engines now is TexMod.



No, you aren't going to see it here, the JC bikini jokes have already been made.

foxberg
20th Aug 2008, 19:16
As I posted in a different thread, if there is going to be an SDK it should not be released for at least a full year from the launch day. No SDK and no cheat codes equals to more mystery and attraction towards the game. Wouldn't it be nice to find some secret area or even a level in the middle of some rubbish in some remote, unimportant to the main plot area of the map? And not to find it through SDK or "noclip" cheat, but through exploring every corner of the map.

Revixy
27th Aug 2008, 01:18
Personally, no.
I think that an SDK package would use up valuable programming hours, and the developpers should prioritise DX3 as more important than an edit pack, their marriages and maintenance of personal hygeine.



I Agree, I want a better Single-player & Co-op experience ( if possible ), than an editing tool.

Editing tools can always be released later.

K^2
10th Nov 2008, 06:54
I've been pulling apart the resource files of Tomb Raider Underworld since the PC demo got released. I don't have quite as much time as I'd like, so it is going a bit slow. I got the bigfile.000 figured out, except for some details on hash collisions, but that didn't stop me from pulling all of the files out. So far I was able to identify some of the images in the archive (almost 300 total) and the level data. I was also able to pull texture data out of the levels. Textures are compressed with DXT1, which is easy enough to extract and generate.

The bad news is that the principal archive does not have a name list. The files are located by a 32 bit hash. I'm guessing the hashes are based on file names, because moving things about generates error messages stating that a file with certain name and path cannot be found. I haven't tried to figure out which hash is used yet. I'll go through a few standard 32 bit hashes later to see if I'll get lucky.

However, once you know where the file is, it is easy to replace it. The file table is a straight forward offset/size, so replacing files with these of different length will not be an issue. If DX3 ends up using the same storage system, I could put together a simple texture import/export tool within hours of release.

I have so far been unable to find the character 3D data. There are over 3,000 files, and with no such hints as name, path, or extension, it is taking a while to go through them. I was able to use the headers to detect some file types, but most do not have an easy-to-detect header.

Interestingly, among images, I found a whole bunch of character art, story boards, and such. I'll try to pick a few spoiler-free ones and post them in the TR section.

Jerion
10th Nov 2008, 07:05
Sweetness! Instant modding tools for everyone! :D

GmanPro
10th Nov 2008, 07:12
Yay modding tools... :D

The only modding I've ever tried to do was with Half Life 1, Half Life 2 (source engine in general) and NWN1 and 2.

But I don't think I'll have time to do anything with DX3 unfortunately :(

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Nov 2008, 08:15
MissDenton, were you a member of Ion Storm's board under same or similar name around the time of IW release? The talk of SDK seemed to trigger some sort of a memory.

No, I wasn't... and sorry I took so long to answer this question. :o

dark_angel_7
10th Nov 2008, 12:09
I think Ubisoft games have map editors and stuff, couldn't the same be implemented for DX3. A map editor would add loads more replay value and of course allow for others fans to try out other peoples maps and give them feedback on how good/bad it was which in turn also keeps the online community alive.

I am all for a map editor. As for an SDK I think it ha similar stuff like allowing for mods and new things to be implemented to the game made by fans which again keeps the community alive and keeps the game fun and interesting. So I'd be for that aswell.

LeatherJacket
10th Nov 2008, 16:23
I've been pulling apart the resource files of Tomb Raider Underworld since the PC demo got released. I don't have quite as much time as I'd like, so it is going a bit slow. I got the bigfile.000 figured out, except for some details on hash collisions, but that didn't stop me from pulling all of the files out.

Do you release sources to your tools? Do you like to work alone on this or do you want some help? I could help though strictly speaking I haven't done much reverse engineering.

K^2
11th Nov 2008, 07:16
Do you release sources to your tools? Do you like to work alone on this or do you want some help? I could help though strictly speaking I haven't done much reverse engineering.
If there is interest, I can release sources. It's just that usually, when I'm working on something like this, I don't take too much care to make code easily readable. But if I expect this in advance, I might be able to make it a little neater.

Really, what I have most trouble with is finding time to do nice user interfaces. I'll probably be able to handle most of actual reverse engineering myself, as well as developing a library with an API for reading/writing data and converting it between formats. What would be really great is if somebody could write a nice, user-friendly front end to work with that.

I can also put together tables describing file formats I've cracked as I go along, so that anyone who wants to work on it further wouldn't have to start from scratch.

AaronJ
11th Nov 2008, 15:09
Personally, no.
I think that an SDK package would use up valuable programming hours, and the developpers should prioritise DX3 as more important than an edit pack, their marriages and maintenance of personal hygeine.

I hate these stupid responses. If they feel they need more development hours, they'll put them in. That's one thing we should all trust them on. An extra addition to the game is not going to severely wound all development. How dumb would they have to be to derail the entire game for an SDK? It would never happen. Telling them to not do an SDK to focus on the game should be seen as an insult, it's assuming they don't have the coordination to do it.

An SDK is essential.

foxberg
11th Nov 2008, 16:56
An SDK is essential.

But again, not before at least a year from the release of the game. They can release it together with cheat codes then. Just imagine, to play the game not knowing or even being able to cheat to find out if there are any other hidden areas left that remain to be visited, any special mod that could be found 3 levels sooner, and so on. Just imagine this forum during that time when everyone would be going like: "Where did you get that?" or "What is this area you are talking about?", etc.

JMO

imported_van_HellSing
11th Nov 2008, 17:20
Interestingly, among images, I found a whole bunch of character art, story boards, and such. I'll try to pick a few spoiler-free ones and post them in the TR section.

That's probably unlockable bonus content.

K^2
11th Nov 2008, 22:39
That's what I figured. What surprised me is that they put it in the demo's archive. Though, I've found an entire set containing every single level from the full game in a demo archive once. I also got banned from the devs forum after I converted one of these to run with a previous version of the game and posted it.

Laokin
12th Nov 2008, 01:23
That's what I figured. What surprised me is that they put it in the demo's archive. Though, I've found an entire set containing every single level from the full game in a demo archive once. I also got banned from the devs forum after I converted one of these to run with a previous version of the game and posted it.

I'm pretty sure they should have warned you to not do it again, and APOLOGIZE for their mistake. But nope, they banned you... and I bet you just let them. Facilitating them to do it again.

K^2
17th Nov 2008, 11:26
What bugged me for a while is that I couldn't find a trace of character textures, despite having extracted them using TexMod. Now, one could replace these with TexMod, but it would be a lot more user friendly if they could be modded within the archive. Not to mention that it would let me locate the actual 3D models used, eventually allowing modding of these as well.

I was trying to find the textures using byte-by-byte comparison assuming various forms of compression, but with no luck. The only conclusion I could make is that there is either another compression involved or worse, encryption. I had a suspect in mind. Files with CDRM header. Fortunately, it did turn out to be compression rather than intentional encryption of the files.

Just figured out how the compression is handled within these files. I am still not sure if compressed sections are meant to be collections of files or a single file broken up into sections. I was able to decompress a single section just fine, so I'll be able to make it work either way. Anyways, watch this space. With luck, I'll have some 3D models extracted within days.

Jerion
17th Nov 2008, 15:55
You know, for DX 3, You might want to play the game before you go about tearing it apart. :p

It's great that you're finding out how to grab resources from the engine. Then you can spend the rest of the time leading up to DX 3's release to put together programs to mod it. :)

Man, I've modded the hell out of Halo PC...those were the days. Then I got adventurous and tried modding Battlefield 2142. That didn't work out so well. Maybe I'll try my hand at it again with DX 3.

K^2
17th Nov 2008, 22:59
That's why I want to do the core work now. That way, I won't get distracted by urge to take things apart once the game is out, and I can focus on actually playing it.

Edit: Each CDRM is a single compressed file broken up into 256kB blocks. Off to write a complete extractor for bigfile.000.

K^2
18th Nov 2008, 02:28
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you Lady Croft.

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/6095/lara1dw4.jpg
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5207/lara2cf6.jpg

Edit: Note this is just a search result. I have not yet established the proper format.

GmanPro
18th Nov 2008, 03:47
nice :thumbsup:

Jerion
18th Nov 2008, 07:06
Nice! I'm wondering if this thread should be retitled.

spm1138
18th Nov 2008, 08:04
I definitely want an SDK.

I know they're a bit out of fashion with some publishers but I really think an SDK (especially one with tools to facilitate fairly straightforward level building / conversation editing) is something that'd definitely add value to DX3.

K^2
18th Nov 2008, 08:25
Nice! I'm wondering if this thread should be retitled.
I originally started a separate thread, but it got merged into this one.

By the way, the file containing map data is identical to the character files in overall structure. At this point, I managed to identify the chunks responsible for meshes and textures, which is the main part needed to mod the characters. I'm not sure how much I'd be able to decipher in terms of animations, so I'm not sure there is a reason to bother with skeletal structures.

Once I have a good handle on meshes, I'll try to see if I can find the portion of the map file that positions them relative to each other. Maybe I'll be able to knock together a simple map editor that way.

P.S. Lara's model has nearly 30,000 vertexes.

Jerion
18th Nov 2008, 08:38
I've altered the title- does that fit this discussion better?

Also...

30,000 vertexes? Oh my...I've never modeled anything above 7000. :eek:

GmanPro
18th Nov 2008, 09:03
Its over 9000!:eek:

That's a lot of vertexes.... 30,000 - What is that, like 10,000 polygons?

Blade_hunter
18th Nov 2008, 10:06
I think if it's possible, The modding tools can be easy to handle, this can make DX 3 more popular I think, If I remember unreal 1 was the first game with an included editor.
Many games can have a better success if they are easy to mod and the mods are easy to use...

DXeXodus
18th Nov 2008, 10:30
30,000 vertexes? Oh my...I've never modeled anything above 8000. :eek:

I made a fun-style gyrocopter at the beginning of the year which has 73 800 vertexes in it.

http://th03.deviantart.com/fs31/300W/i/2008/234/2/3/Gyrocopter___Textureless_by_DXeXodus.jpg
http://fc36.deviantart.com/fs31/f/2008/234/3/4/Gyrocopter___Textureless_by_DXeXodus.jpg

But it ran fairly slowly in 3Dmax though.

Jerion
18th Nov 2008, 10:44
Nice model. :thumbsup:

I've never gotten into 3D modeling beyond the extent necessary for my game- so my models are pure crap compared to that. When I'm done with my current project, do you think I could enlist your modeling skills in my next one? :D

DXeXodus
18th Nov 2008, 10:50
Most definitely. I am not very good at organic objects. I mostly do techy/machine/vehicles etc.

I use 3Ds max2009.

Jerion
18th Nov 2008, 10:54
Most definitely. I am not very good at organic objects. I mostly do techy/machine/vehicles etc.

I use 3Ds max2009.

Good. How good are you at texturing them?

Scratch that- I've seen your deviantart page. :D

DXeXodus
18th Nov 2008, 10:59
I'm basically just into modeling unfortunately. UVwrapping etc. is not my forte. You can see my stuff on DA.

But we can always make a plan and sort something out. We will have to endure much, you and I.... But soon, there will be order. ;)

[EDIT]

Scratch that- I've seen your deviantart page :D

See, not that great. :D

Jerion
18th Nov 2008, 11:03
Well, that's alright. :)

I think I'll have my current project wrapped up by the end of the year and I'm gonna wait a month before starting another one, so you've got some time off. :p

K^2
18th Nov 2008, 18:33
Its over 9000!:eek:

That's a lot of vertexes.... 30,000 - What is that, like 10,000 polygons?
I'm still trying to get an exact count on vertexes. It isn't stored in any obvious to me way. However, I do have exact polygon count now. There are 37,831 polygons in Lara Croft model with Jungle A outfit.

I have means to determine exact location of polygon data within the file and get a precise count of it. I can also locate the vertex data using heuristics, but I have not yet been able to put it all together. It seems that a single vertex list is re-used between several polygon lists with varying offsets to "zero-vertex". I also don't have a clue where to look for UV and normal data. For right now, I'm using polygon normals for the lighting. That, of course, gives the model a flat-shaded look. If I can't find normals, I can compute estimates, but it isn't going to look quite as nice.

Kieranator, I think the title works. Thanks.

Edit: Almost working. I think I finally got the correlations together. Except, for some reason, only legs and a pair of eye balls are rendering at the moment... I'll be working on fixing that. But if I'm right, the exact vertex count in 34442.

K^2
18th Nov 2008, 19:51
34442 Vertexes.
37831 Polygons.
Flat shading (because I'm lazy).

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3507/larafr1.jpg

I'm still relying on a few magic numbers, though, which will have to be fixed before I can do universal import/export. I also don't have the faintest on how to texture this.

GmanPro
18th Nov 2008, 21:55
I'm confused. How can it have more polygons than vertexes?:scratch:

I always thought polygons were triangles with three vertexes.

K^2
18th Nov 2008, 22:10
You mean more polygons than vertexes, I gather.

Vertexes can be re-used in different triangles. Consider an icosahedron. It is a regular 20-sided polyhedron. d20, if you play any games with dice. It can be constructed from 20 polygons and only 12 vertexes.

If all objects were completely closed, number of polygons would always be greater than number of vertexes. You can't get around that. Situations where this doesn't happen arise because of the need for sharp corners. They are usually formed by duplicating vertexes. If an object has a lot of sharp corners, number of vertexes can easily greatly exceed number of polygons.

GmanPro
18th Nov 2008, 22:16
Ahhh I see.

Busted out my dice set and looked at the d20. The polygons join at common vertexes, any one vertex has 5 polygons attached to it. Interesting, never thought of that.

Yargo
19th Nov 2008, 05:40
http://logo.cafepress.com/6/1221917.1006476.jpg
My calculus professor wore this shirt :D

GmanPro
19th Nov 2008, 05:54
Lol! :lol:

I want one. :thumbsup:

K^2
19th Nov 2008, 06:25
http://logo.cafepress.com/6/1221917.1006476.jpg
My calculus professor wore this shirt :D
I don't get it. Why d12?

As a point of interest, d12 and d20 are only different in having vertexes and sides switched. The symmetry group is the same.

GmanPro
19th Nov 2008, 06:31
^^

Poor, lonely d12, used only for greataxes and barbarian Hit Dice. The other dice won't let it play in any of their polyhedral games.

It used to be used for two-handed swords also, but alas, no more.

These are my dice btw. I think they r awesome. :D

http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Translucent/23001.htm

Jerion
19th Nov 2008, 06:40
^^

Funky. I don't think I"d have much use for dice though. :)

dixieflatline
25th Nov 2008, 22:55
I would love to see a SDK released for the game.

For those of you who said you are concerned that it would take up valuable resources to make the SDK, keep in mind that often SDK's are made internally anyways to make it easier to insert content into the game. I'm not sure if this is the case for DX3 of course...but maybe they already have SDK tools that they are using to create the game, and the tools would not need much work to be released publicly.

GmanPro
26th Nov 2008, 01:44
I've heard that Crystal Dynamics isn't a very easy engine to work with. If they want to at least put an SDK up on their website for download, then that would be cool. I'd definitely try to work with it, maybe make a mod or two. :thumbsup:

K^2
26th Nov 2008, 01:52
I would love to see a SDK released for the game.

For those of you who said you are concerned that it would take up valuable resources to make the SDK, keep in mind that often SDK's are made internally anyways to make it easier to insert content into the game. I'm not sure if this is the case for DX3 of course...but maybe they already have SDK tools that they are using to create the game, and the tools would not need much work to be released publicly.
Maybe? How can you possibly question that they have tools for that? Do you think they put levels together with a hex editor? Not to mention the fact that the engine is put together by a different team. I expect, Crystal Dynamics has put together an SDK and shipped it to Eidos Montreal.

The additional work is not in creating SDK. It is in making sure that it does not open any sort of vulnerabilities. In addition, if SDK is released, it puts responsibility for stability issues on EM. You might not think it is a big deal if SDK would crash every once in a while, but as part of an official release, it would have a negative impact on the game.

I've heard that Crystal Dynamics isn't a very easy engine to work with.
It's not that bad. I'm still working on *.drm files, but I do expect them fully or nearly so cracked soon. Right now, I'm using TRU as a guinea pig, and I expect to write the following tools:
1) Archive extractor/updater/re-packer.
2) Texture import/export.
3) Models import/export.
4) Level geometry compiler. I won't write editor from scratch. Simply set up one of the existing ones with texture lists, etc.
5) Quick spawn-point/item editor.

Things I might run into trouble with are animations and scripts. Once these tools are ready, I expect that it will be a matter of days to re-adjust them for DX3 once the game is out. If there will be a demo, tools might even be ready on the day of release.

dixieflatline
26th Nov 2008, 02:07
Of course they have tools -- but I was thinking of a dichotomy between publicly releasable, user friendly tools vs. ugly, difficult to use, internal use only quality tools. That's what I meant by "maybe they already have SDK tools that ... would not need much work to be released publicly"; not that don't have tools at all.

After reading this thread, I'm pretty excited about the prospects for an SDK. They seem much stronger than I would have guessed earlier. Maybe if a giant modding project spawns sometime in the future, I'll see if I can be any help.

K^2
26th Nov 2008, 14:31
I see. Well, the thing is, most of the mods that are worth noting are done by the people who have similar experience level to people who do it professionally. They are people who have been doing that kind of work as a hobby for a long enough time, or they are studying to become professional game developers. So the tools that would be sufficient to the modding community are really the same tools that the game's developers would be using. Again, level of user-friendliness isn't the issue. The issue is stability of the engine and tools themselves. If the game isn't properly protected, a carefully crafted custom-level can contain a trojan or something a little more destructive. If there is also a multiplayer component to all of this, expect trouble. That's the real reason tools like that aren't usually released. Making sure that there are no holes takes up time and resources that devs don't usually have.

P-nut
29th Jan 2009, 04:08
First, let me introduce myself. Like many of you, the first Deus Ex was a life-changing experience for me. Not ever before or after has a game, movie or even a book of fiction sucked me into it's mysterious little atmosphere like this one. Not unlike many of you I sincerely hope Eidos Montreal manages to do what Ion Storm, at least in my opinion, was not able to do: take that atmosphere and make a decent successor to this brilliant game.

Over the years after Deus Ex came out I have been disappointed by many games which had the potential, but never quite made up to their hype; my wish of having another experience similar to Deus Ex was unanswered. Now even though I think Eidos Montreal has my faith that they can make a great game, I think that if their mission was to satisfy all the hardcore DX1 fans only an updated copy of the original would suffice. This is, of course, impossible.

Now I've been reading from alot of people (sometime between the lines) that they have some kind of need for this, and actually, so do I.
I don't ask for a complete remake of the original: this would consume too much time (and yes, money) for the developers that really needs to go to the effort of creating an excellent stand-alone game. But I do think that, with a little effort from the developers, the average play-time and even sales would dramatically rise if they released a software development kit and as some sort of head-start, models in the new engine from DX1 characters.
Because face it: even though DX has a strong fanbase, we never quite managed to take DX1 to a "new level".
If Eidos Montreal provided us with this, hell, perhaps even organise a little competition of who can re-create the original in the best way, us hardcore fans who are so hard to convince but so easy to disappoint can truely be satisfied, even if the final game will suck in our biased little opinions.

I really hope Eidos Montreal considers this, at least it will make this old fanboy happier.

(P.S. after about 2 years of not playing I just completed my latest run of the old game... can't believe I still run in to stuff I didn't see before :rolleyes: )

K^2
29th Jan 2009, 04:13
There are what, 2? 3? Other topics on SDK. I have a feeling a merge is coming.

Jerion
29th Jan 2009, 05:00
^^ Right you are.

Blade_hunter
29th Jan 2009, 10:50
He if you read this thread you can see some guys know how is important to gat an SDK, I just hope EIDOS montreal will consider our request about that ^^

Modding increase the popularity of a game, because it's a sort of comunity add on.

P-nut
29th Jan 2009, 15:44
hmm I didn't know this board had such overzealous moderators who need to have everything thats even remotely related in one thread for what? For the good of making the forum less chaotic? Or what? Long-ass threads like this one make a forum less accessable to the average guy like me who doesnt want to read all 100,000+ replies before making his own statement.

In my own defence, I do think my post was worth to be a stand alone thread. I understand you guys move, merge or delete threads that say "OMG DX3 GON BE SO WICKED COOOL!!!!111ones" or something alike but I do think I had something to say.
Anyways moderators fear not, if this is the kind of forum-climate you want to propagate, I will take my ramblings to some other place.

hem dazon 90
1st Feb 2009, 12:07
im sorry iplay consoles what the chuffing hell is an sdk

.thanks

Jerion
1st Feb 2009, 21:19
hmm I didn't know this board had such overzealous moderators who need to have everything thats even remotely related in one thread for what? For the good of making the forum less chaotic? Or what? Long-ass threads like this one make a forum less accessable to the average guy like me who doesnt want to read all 100,000+ replies before making his own statement.

In my own defence, I do think my post was worth to be a stand alone thread. I understand you guys move, merge or delete threads that say "OMG DX3 GON BE SO WICKED COOOL!!!!111ones" or something alike but I do think I had something to say.
Anyways moderators fear not, if this is the kind of forum-climate you want to propagate, I will take my ramblings to some other place.

Wow. You certainly take offense to me doing my job. You made a topic basically asking for an SDK- and there is already a thread dedicated to exactly that. Therefore, a merge is acceptable. There is a re-direct still up, so anybody that wants to read what you said can do so very, very easily.

I understand you being upset at having your first thread merged- nobody likes to be shunted off to the side. But it is part of how we keep this forum clean and organized- we can't have dozens of identical threads and expect to have anything resembling an intelligent forum. So please, just take it in stride, and expect that if you have something new and interesting to discuss, then it will thrive in it's own thread. If whatever you post is essentially a rehash of what has been said countless times before- and this isn't anything personal- then either post it in an existing thread or it will eventually get merged into an existing thread.

We welcome ramblings- but we like to keep them in the threads that they correspond to. :)

Blade_hunter
1st Feb 2009, 22:22
In a forum as far as I know it's good to doesn't have 50 threads about the same subject, sometimes we haven't the courage to read everything in the thread, but it's better when we want to find a subject or even one of our posts

This is my opinion after all, because all well organized forums we got the same except some cases but it's exactly the same.

For console gamers I know the modding isn't important for them, but when we play PC we have an other view because since the first doom (perhaps before ?) we got the mods for PC games and consoles tends to follow the PC like we can see with UT3 we got mods for the PS3 and the PC, this kind of things is a sort of frontier removal, but the bad thing is UT3 is often considered as a console game by the UT2k4 fans

I hope consoles will follow the PCs even if some console hardware structure is close to a PC since the Xbox

K^2
2nd Feb 2009, 01:33
im sorry iplay consoles what the chuffing hell is an sdk

.thanks
SKD = Software Development Kit. Generally refers to either an actual kit for developing software for a platform or, as in this case, a set of tools for developing modifications for existing software. In this instance, specifically, tools for making mods for the game.

There are cases of SDK being released as downloadable content for consoles as well, but it is not so common. SDK for PC titles isn't as common as some people would like it to be either, but fortunately, for PC, it often becomes possible to mod games using tools written by hackers who take the game apart looking for ways to make it work differently.

Jerion
2nd Feb 2009, 01:37
^^ Like yourself. Nice work with the TRU stuff BTW. And don't tell any of the TRU mods I said that. :D

K^2
2nd Feb 2009, 02:04
Are they annoyed by hacking, or something?

Jerion
2nd Feb 2009, 06:13
Some of them frown on it. ;)

K^2
2nd Feb 2009, 06:48
I have a pretty good record so far. I've been booted from only one developer/publisher official forum for hacking their games.

Laokin
2nd Feb 2009, 08:03
Personally, no.
I think that an SDK package would use up valuable programming hours, and the developpers should prioritise DX3 as more important than an edit pack, their marriages and maintenance of personal hygeine.

Plus, if SDK is do-able, doesn't that mean simpler maps in the real game? :scratch: That would be unforgivable if t'were the case.

Um.... how does an SDK = simpler maps? How do you think maps are made in games? With their map making tools that they don't release because without an SDK the editor is useless.

There is no point in making maps if you can't edit the game.

SDK would take some programming, but usually this is done POST release. Left 4 Dead is a good example. Valve already confirmed they are putting one out, yet the game has been release since Mid November.

SDK or bust IMO. That's a huge reason DX 1 lived as long as it did.

P.S.
SDK is just a stripped down over protected source code. It's really not that terribly hard to create and I agree it should wait till the game is complete.

Jerion
2nd Feb 2009, 08:53
I have a pretty good record so far. I've been booted from only one developer/publisher official forum for hacking their games.

Hehe...If I were you I'd run your stuff by John Carter or Chip before talking about a mod/hack tool of your own on those forums. ;)

K^2
2nd Feb 2009, 08:56
Hehe...If I were you I'd run your stuff by John Carter or Chip before talking about a mod/hack tool of your own on those forums. ;)
Once I'm done working on them, I'll drop the tools elsewhere, in places where mods/admins actually encourage hacks (I've been slacking a lot for the past month or so), and let others take the risk of posting them here. :p

SDK is just a stripped down over protected source code.
This is wrong on many, many levels.

First of all, most game devs will never ever let you anywhere near the full source code. Notable exceptions include open source games, Id releasing sources to old games, and Valve using gaben as password on a server. What you see in SDK that includes any kind of source code is a tiny portion of the full source that bridges UI, physics, and AI cores.

These games constitute a portion of all games that let you modify how the game runs. Many, if not majority, use scripting language for that function, and you only get to play with these scripts. Not any portion of the source. Notable example being Unreal Tournament.

The games that let you modify these things are only a portion of various games releasing an SDK. Most SDK consist of editors for maps, various objects, etc. They might let you build entirely new stories with new characters in new locations, but you cannot touch the core gameplay.

As a result, games where you get to mess with source are by far the minority. And that's not even the full extent of misinformation that quote carries. It gives an impression that if devs wish to let you play with the source code to let you modify how the game runs, all they have to do is release these portions of the source. Nothing can be further from the truth.

In order to allow modding of the engine, devs have to construct the engine around that concept from scratch. UI, Physics, AI, graphics, and networking cores have to communicate with each other via a self-contained API. That API has to be constructed as a DLL that is loaded at run time. The source code for the DLL is subsequently released as part of the SDK. If that is not provided for from the very start of engine development, the only way to modify the engine is to compile it from the full source. And as mentioned above, not a lot of devs will let you anywhere near that.

That said, Crystal Dynamics does not seem to have had any intention of allowing users to mess with their engine. Therefore, odds of EM releasing a set of source codes that will let you compile your own client code are pretty much nill, even if they want to. Best you can hope for, in terms of an official SDK, is a set of level and model editing tools. So no full conversions for DX3, but maybe, with some luck, good mission mods made by the fans.

Jerion
2nd Feb 2009, 09:33
^^ Hmm. Given those meager tools you could still make some nice single-player missions or do MP maps. And if DX 3 has Multiplayer, then I expect that is where a good deal of the community mods and maps will be focused.

Don't worry about posting those tools here- I'll do a quick check with Carter once you post them somewhere and if he doesn't threaten to ban me I'll post 'em. :D

Blade_hunter
3rd Feb 2009, 18:03
When I see the first unreal it cames with an included editor and I think it was the first game with a level editor inside, it was the same tool used by the developers of the game even if they have other softwares like 3d softwares, photo softwares for the textures, etc ... but the editor itself is sufficient to make maps
I talk often about unreal and its editing tools because DX was an unreal engine based game even if I like that engine.

And the SDK can be allow a chance for some DX fans to see a port of the first game in a new engine since DX3 got some common possibilities

P-nut
5th Feb 2009, 06:10
Wow. You certainly take offense to me doing my job. You made a topic basically asking for an SDK- and there is already a thread dedicated to exactly that. Therefore, a merge is acceptable. There is a re-direct still up, so anybody that wants to read what you said can do so very, very easily.

I understand you being upset at having your first thread merged- nobody likes to be shunted off to the side. But it is part of how we keep this forum clean and organized- we can't have dozens of identical threads and expect to have anything resembling an intelligent forum. So please, just take it in stride, and expect that if you have something new and interesting to discuss, then it will thrive in it's own thread. If whatever you post is essentially a rehash of what has been said countless times before- and this isn't anything personal- then either post it in an existing thread or it will eventually get merged into an existing thread.

We welcome ramblings- but we like to keep them in the threads that they correspond to. :)

Excuse my aggressive response to the merge; I was in a pissed off mood and I felt my ego was damaged :whistle:
anyways, I've re-read my post and the rest of this thread, and yes, it was an acceptable merge. I tend to overreact on some unrelated things whenever I'm frustrated about something else. Again, excuse my rant..

On topic, K^2, you seem to know alot about this subject. So what you are saying, is that it is impossible to create total conversions of a game if the developer did not integrate the possibility of making one in the early development phase, not even by hacking? Say, if DX3 were to feature a different skill system then DX1 (which is very propable), and someone wanted to mod this to how it was in the old game, this would require a very advanced SDK?
You said you think, considering this game will be built using the crystal dynamics engine, we won't get advanced sdk, but (if we're lucky and get one after all) a basic one. Could you name the possibities this has as in how far the game can be edited/modded?

GmanPro
5th Feb 2009, 06:31
Editing the skill system would be entirely doable I'm sure. I saw a HL2 mod that featured space dog-fights.

K^2
5th Feb 2009, 06:51
I should really avoid the word impossible. It is very, very difficult. But it has been done. For example, consider multiplayer mods for GTA. The way they have done these is by locating structures that are responsible for various characters and updating them by an external program that functions a lot like a trainer would. That external program communicates via network to sync up all of the players.

You could pull something like that for skills. Your "trainer" would adjust damage you deal, shake aim, or what have you, based on the skill values it would keep track of. You might have to switch to an external app to assign skill points, but that shouldn't be too bad. Alternatively, someone might actually hook into DirectX code and build a menu for skills. That would already work nearly as well as total conversion mod.

Problem is that each of these little mods would require great effort. I suspect that if auto-regen will get in the way of gameplay, people will mod that out. Skills I'm not so sure about. It might be too much effort for such a task.

Next. If EM does release an SDK of some sort, it is most likely going to be a stripped down level editor. Maximum you'd be able to do with that is build your own levels with your own story line.

So, for a total conversion, you will need 3 things.
1) SDK by EM to make levels and scripts for them.
2) Some hacked tools for model editing. That shouldn't be a problem.
3) A custom program that hooks into game engine and forces custom behavior.

Existence of each of these things is a completely independent event. Since I have worked with TRU models, I'm confident that we'll have tools for working with 3D models in DX3. I can't really say anything with certainty about the two other components.

Editing the skill system would be entirely doable I'm sure. I saw a HL2 mod that featured space dog-fights.
HL2 features a very complete SDK released by Valve, who wrote their engine from scratch, and decided that it would be a good idea to let moders play with it. Crystal Dynamics is not intending to release such SDK.

GmanPro
5th Feb 2009, 07:37
^^ Lol, I actually followed everything you said up there. If EM decided to give me the source code, I'm thinking it wouldn't take much effort to pull off a hak job of a makeshift skill system. I guess it all depends on how neatly EM writes up their code...

K^2
5th Feb 2009, 08:31
Read my lips. EM can't release the source code even if they wanted to. They can't.

No dev will ever release full source codes. The way Id and Valve do it is by having a bunch of stuff shoved into a DLL, source for which is released. You never modify the core engine. Just the client and server libraries.

Crystal Dynamics engine does not have such libraries. Everything is packaged into a single executable. In order for you to mod it, you have to compile the whole executable. That means, you have to have the full source. That ain't going to happen.

GmanPro
5th Feb 2009, 08:41
^^
Kinda hard to read your lips when I cant see them... :rasp:

Maybe its time for me to go ninja and 'retrieve' the source code from EM studios. http://fc79.deviantart.com/fs24/i/2008/018/3/f/Ninja_by_BoffinbraiN.gif I've played a bunch of stealth sim games, how hard could it be? :D

K^2
5th Feb 2009, 21:35
That's what happened to Half-Life2. Game got delayed by a year. Of course, it wasn't exactly ready anyhow, which you can see by actually compiling sources, but still.

Blade_hunter
5th Feb 2009, 21:59
Mod an non existing thing in a game is more difficult I agree they did a vehicle mod under the unreal engine 1, but it's more difficult, because it doesn't have vehicle support...

Xesum
24th May 2009, 19:12
This has most likely been asked 50 million times, but Search didn't bring anything up.

Will you include an SDK for Deus Ex 3?

Most of us will want to make maps for the game, so you should let us.

The main reason IW failed is because it didn't have an SDK.

Deus Ex 1 had an SDK, that game was Epic and is still played today. (Take The Nameless Mod as an example).

I might not buy the game if there isn't one.

AaronJ
24th May 2009, 19:16
As much as I hope they will, they probably won't.

J.CDenton
24th May 2009, 23:27
I really expect to have a SDK. I'm myself trying to use the DX1 SDK. I'd live to experiment my own ideas with a much better engine.

Tracer Tong
26th May 2009, 22:56
Three words: The Nameless Mod.

These kind of things are the reason the DX1 community is still alive and kicking!

manOFsnow
18th Jan 2010, 06:31
Hey everyone, I'm fairly new here but here goes:

For Deus Ex (1) I enjoyed mapping, I was however a few years late and had no real audience for my creations. Does anyone know when I can get my hands of the SDK for this game? Thanks in advanced!

K^2
18th Jan 2010, 06:45
There is unlikely to be an official SDK, but some mod tools will become available as fans put them together.

WildcatPhoenix
18th Jan 2010, 17:47
The Deus Ex 1 mapping community is STILL alive to this day (I'm in the middle of creating a mod, myself...10 years after the original game was released!)

That's ridiculous longevity in today's ADD-addled gaming market. I agree completely with pha on this one- an SDK is a great way to extend the life of your game. I really hope Eidos Montreal doesn't decide to go the (ugh) DLC route. We pay enough for games as it is.

Blade_hunter
18th Jan 2010, 17:54
There is always mods who are been created and in project, I think the Nameless mod gave a little boost onto it.
the mod is very popular
Also the textures projects and such are in progress

rhoark
28th Jun 2010, 18:30
In case Eidos was wondering where and when they should discuss their plans for an SDK, I made this handy thread, so they could do so right here.

PenguinsFriend
28th Jun 2010, 18:35
In case Eidos was wondering where and when they should discuss their plans for an SDK, I made this handy thread, so they could do so right here.

Not to pour water on your puppy like zeal, but good luck with getting a dev to respond to your post :D

And, welcome!

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 18:39
I wouldn't hold your breath. Then again, who knew that Epic would release the U3 SDK?

rhoark
28th Jun 2010, 19:44
Epic, like iD, is as much in the engine business as the game business. It's a no-brainer they'd release an SDK and try to get it in front of as many people as possible.

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 19:49
Epic, like iD, is as much in the engine business as the game business. It's a no-brainer they'd release an SDK and try to get it in front of as many people as possible.

And Crytek, too. But they're odd, since they're even more in the engine business than the game business.

Dead-Eye
28th Jun 2010, 21:29
I wouldn't hold your breath. Then again, who knew that Epic would release the U3 SDK?

...like everyone. Or are you talking about the UDK?

It's interesting now that the UDK has been released for free. I think it's going to change the way game engine programmers sell their products. How do you compete with a program that Epic is giving away for free? Especially when we consider how superior this engine is to just about every other engine out there.

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 21:34
...like everyone. Or are you talking about the UDK?

It's interesting now that the UDK has been released for free. I think it's going to change the way game engine programmers sell their products. How do you compete with a program that Epic is giving away for free? Especially when we consider how superior this engine is to just about every other engine out there.

Actually, yes, I did mean the UDK. Silly me. :D

WildcatPhoenix
28th Jun 2010, 21:54
At this point an SDK might be the only thing capable of getting me to buy this game.

Seriously.

Give us the chance to make something truly incredible and the Deus Ex mod community will show you how it's done, Eidos Montreal!

Damn I'm in a pissy mood today. :hmm:

atLaNt1s
3rd Jul 2010, 02:29
project offset is going to be epic

Romeo
3rd Jul 2010, 04:01
I am really, REALLY hoping for an SDK. My mods are never anything amazing, but I find it fun to make something and then play it, and realize that YOU did that. I remember K^2 said he'd make a third-party SDK if Eidos didn't.

And to the gent that said Unreal is the best engine, I have to say, I don't know about the technical stuff, but CryEngine games always seem to look better, and Frostbite games are simply nuts in their destruction, I think U3 pretty much only has their widespread nature going for them. Devs experience with it, you know?

K^2
3rd Jul 2010, 05:42
I didn't say I'd make one. I said I'd try to make one. I'm sure I can come up with a texture replacer, but anything beyond that, we'll have to wait and see.

If archive structure doesn't change from TRU, I'll have a great head-start on it. But models and levels I'll have to work out almost from scratch either way.

I'll see if I can get someone from EM let me have a few maps/models they used for testing. These tend to be easier to work with. If I can get a few raw versions of things like scripts, and so on, it'd go a very, very long way. I'm just not sure what guys at EM will think about that.

Delever
3rd Jul 2010, 09:39
At this point an SDK might be the only thing capable of getting me to buy this game.

Seriously.

Give us the chance to make something truly incredible and the Deus Ex mod community will show you how it's done, Eidos Montreal!

Damn I'm in a pissy mood today. :hmm:

You are so full of yourself. You will take their engine, their textures, their models, their animations, their items and will show them how it is done.

Really.

Kodaemon
3rd Jul 2010, 09:55
You are so full of yourself. You will take their engine, their textures, their models, their animations, their items and will show them how it is done.

Really.

Yes, really.

Assets are one thing, gameplay is another. It's not that we think they're not capable of producing a great game, it's that they've chosen to go the wrong way about it.

Remington
3rd Jul 2010, 10:28
I didn't say I'd make one. I said I'd try to make one. I'm sure I can come up with a texture replacer, but anything beyond that, we'll have to wait and see.

If archive structure doesn't change from TRU, I'll have a great head-start on it. But models and levels I'll have to work out almost from scratch either way.

I'll see if I can get someone from EM let me have a few maps/models they used for testing. These tend to be easier to work with. If I can get a few raw versions of things like scripts, and so on, it'd go a very, very long way. I'm just not sure what guys at EM will think about that.

That's a lot of work.

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Jul 2010, 14:28
You are so full of yourself. You will take their engine, their textures, their models, their animations, their items and will show them how it is done.

Really.

Yeah, really. Modders are the guys/girls who truly love their work. They aren't governed by any studio deadline, they aren't afraid to find creative gameplay design solutions, and most importantly, they aren't driven by profit motive.

In its heyday the Deus Ex mod scene came up with some truly amazing work. Look no further than Mod Database's Mod of the Year (TNM) and you'll see what I mean. Not to mention the brilliant stuff from other games series (ever heard of a game called Counter-Strike? How about Portal?)

Pretentious Old Man.
3rd Jul 2010, 15:23
I am really, REALLY hoping for an SDK. My mods are never anything amazing, but I find it fun to make something and then play it, and realize that YOU did that. I remember K^2 said he'd make a third-party SDK if Eidos didn't.

And to the gent that said Unreal is the best engine, I have to say, I don't know about the technical stuff, but CryEngine games always seem to look better, and Frostbite games are simply nuts in their destruction, I think U3 pretty much only has their widespread nature going for them. Devs experience with it, you know?

It's all a matter of preference. I agree, actually, in that the U3 engine is a little wanting in the poly count and destructability side, tending to make up for this with clever pixel-shading and texturing.

Call me old-fashioned, but I have a great love for the good-old gamebryo engine, as used in Bethesda games from Morrowind to the present day. Getting content into the game is both so easy and so rewarding, anyone using the TESCs will know what I mean. Modding Morrowind, God, that took up hours of my life.

K^2
3rd Jul 2010, 19:31
That's a lot of work.
Indeed. But hopefully, I'll be able to delegate some of it. I'm absolutely pants with UI, for example. So if I figure out how to compile maps, having me write a map editor would be a terrible idea. It will either have to be compiled from some other map format, or we'll have to find someone to write the actual editor.

Fletchreborn
5th Dec 2010, 16:44
Hey there, I did have a good read through all the open topics and couldn't find any previous discussion regarding this topic. I'm unfamiliar with the Engine DX3 is going to be using, does it seem likely that any modding tools will be released to allow fan mods?
I'll make no secret of the fact that I'd love to remake DX1 in the new Engine.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Dec 2010, 17:05
Welcome to the forum.
You can find a list of main discussion threads here: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=86931
Hope this helps. I've merged your new post.

K^2
5th Dec 2010, 19:00
I'll make no secret of the fact that I'd love to remake DX1 in the new Engine.
You'd have much better success in remaking original under Unreal3.

Fletchreborn
5th Dec 2010, 20:40
You'd have much better success in remaking original under Unreal3.

Maybe so, but I'd still prefer to do it using the new Engine if SDK does appear.:)

K^2
5th Dec 2010, 22:11
There will never be an SDK that will let you edit weapons and mods. I can guarantee that right now. At best, we're talking about recreating the levels and some character models. If that's all you want to do, it might be possible at one point, though, more likely via various hacks than official SDK. But if you want to actually recreate DX, you'll need a lot more access to the engine than you'll ever get with HR. You basically need to write a full conversion mod, and Unreal 3 is your best bet for that if you want to get good support from existing DX modding community.

Rindill the Red
5th Dec 2010, 22:20
EM knows there is a decent modding community formed around Deus Ex, that's still working on and releasing things today, but releasing an SDK would really just be fan-service... unless they made us pay for it.

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 01:32
Call me old-fashioned, but I have a great love for the good-old gamebryo engine, as used in Bethesda games from Morrowind to the present day. Getting content into the game is both so easy and so rewarding, anyone using the TESCs will know what I mean. Modding Morrowind, God, that took up hours of my life.
I HATE tile based systems. HATE! This is a mod I made for oblivion when I was 13 though.. http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=OblivionMods.Detail&id=2092


You'd have much better success in remaking original under Unreal3.
Today 03:05 AM
These holidays I plan to remake the Dowd Crypt in UDK. I've got a week of timesheets scheduled out so far, and plan to start once I've gotten the essentials of Zbrush down. Hopefully this week. I don't know if I'll do the underground parts, I just want to try for maximum atmosphere / detail

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 01:50
So you think that if one was to, say, sit down and write a complete Deus Ex engine under UDK, there would be enough interested people to remake all the levels, models, and textures?

[FGS]Shadowrunner
6th Dec 2010, 02:24
I'm sold on UDK, just don't know where you get the idea that the DX community is familiar with it, every DX project that I am aware of, is using DX1's SDK. The thing I like about it though, it is familiar to a lot more people.

I'm no expert, but from reading this thread, it seems to make no sense for Eidos to release the SDK, when almost certainly there will be another title in the same engine. Also, even though I am a mapper/modder, I am not sure either if I like the idea of fans messing about and filling in the chronological storyline between DX3 and DX1. I think the only thing we will see in the near future is a mission builder / console style map creation tool, as with some Xbox games. I think we would see a second title or more comics or movie before a SDK, although I would love to get my hands on it.

Taking up Wildcat's point, it is easy for modders to pat themselves on the back. They don't have deadlines, aren't required to be consistently creative, or required to be creative at 8.30 am on a monday morning. It's a completely different ballgame than creating something for money, in fact we can not really compare the two, which is why so many mods are never completed. Being a creative professional is 10% talent and 90% pushing yourself.

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 02:33
So you think that if one was to, say, sit down and write a complete Deus Ex engine under UDK, there would be enough interested people to remake all the levels, models, and textures?
Hm. Perhaps, however even if there was enough interest / talent, I don't think it would work out anyway, and that's because deus ex fans like deus ex. Any remake will have changes that fans will not like (Combat doesnt feel right, looks wrong, characters are too tall...). It won't be the same, it won't be worth it, and it'd be a lot of wasted work. In the end why not just play deus ex, theres nothing wrong with it so why remake it?

I'm just remaking that level to see how well I can do something, learn some skills along the way and see if people like it. I was also kinda inspired when playing a new Killing Floor map and going through a graveyard section, and I had the sudden urge to want to make something similar

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 02:46
Hm. Fair enough.

Rindill the Red
6th Dec 2010, 04:11
Personally, I wouldn't mind if someone, or even EM went back and re-envisioned the original Deus Ex using their new engine. What puts most people off of Deus Ex is the game-play and first level... which EM could fix and polish.

Deus Ex would still exist, but think of everything EM could do with it.

1. Update the game-world to create greater continuity with DX:HR and any sequels.
- Mechanically augmented agents (Navarre, Hermann) could be represented with actual mechanical augmentations that do things like Jensen's, Barret's, and Fedorova's.
- Tie-in earlier events, organizations, technology, and people, into the world of Deus Ex.
- New missions and events before the open.

2. Expand the game.
- Perhaps J.C. can now side with UNATCO and MJ12 by killing Paul... opening up a whole new branch of missions.
- Perhaps they can include the moon/space station mission as well as ADA, or the White House level.
- Larger areas of New York, Hong Kong, etc... re-imagined with today's technological capabilities.
- New more unique nano-technological abilities that clearly put it above mechanical augmentation.

3. Improve game-play:
- Smarter AI
- Hacking, lock picking, multi-tool mini-games
- Shadow, LOS, and sound based stealth
- Re-imagined levels with greater depth and variety
- Tweaked skills and augmentations
- All original weapons + more
- new engaging and expanded melee fighting
- Better balance and difficulty curve throughout the game (new enemies and enemy abilities)

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 04:16
I'd rather they leave it alone and create something around the same time, just with another protagonist. Maybe a person as they struggle through life and end up joining the NSF, there are hundreds of things you could do in the DX universe.

Rindill the Red
6th Dec 2010, 04:24
I'd rather they leave it alone and create something around the same time, just with another protagonist. Maybe a person as they struggle through life and end up joining the NSF, there are hundreds of things you could do in the DX universe.

Maybe, but one of the original's strengths was it explored every conspiracy (and then some), had a great plot and set of characters, with plenty of twists and secrets, lots of philosophical over-tones and under-tones, and had a world changing climax.

I mean, it makes sense once... but even by the end of Invisible War I was like... this is getting old.

So if they make yet another Deus Ex game... and they want to make it "epic", I would rather they remade Deus Ex 1.

So, yes, they could tell A story in the universe, but I wouldn't want it to be so "epic" as usually defines a Deus Ex game.

I definitely wouldn't mind if they went a bit more personal and less epic... with a multiple ending that was not world-changing but rather emotionally resonant.

And I would love it if they began to explore a post-cyberpunk setting something like GiT:S.

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 04:26
I'd like the next game to be parallel to DX 1, such that it takes place at more or less the same time period, with the same background world and some subtle ties to the generic events of DX. Nothing too specific, as there's no mechanism for tracking player actions in the 2000 game. Maybe it would offer the possibility for a new take on that cut White House level?

Rindill the Red
6th Dec 2010, 04:30
I'd like the next game to be parallel to DX 1, such that it takes place at more or less the same time period, with the same background world and some subtle ties to the generic events of DX. Nothing too specific, as there's no mechanism for tracking player actions in the 2000 game. Maybe it would offer the possibility for a new taje on that cut White House level?

When you mentioned parallel, you know, I wouldn't mind if they just started making Deus Ex games in parallel universes... though I suppose it could get confusing.

Plenty of long franchises get re-imagined over and over, setting up new continuities, with each giving it's own take on the subject matter.

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 05:29
Well, let me tell you what I can do for all this, and I'd like to know if it'd be worth the time and if you think there would be enough people interested and dedicated enough to take it to some form of conclusion, whether it'd be a straight DX remake, a tie-in, or something that takes place in parallel.

I've been wanting to try something with UDK. I would not have time to finish the game, but I can put in a solid foundation that individuals can later finish. What I would create is the following.

1) Set up player class that gives you all the flexibility of the original, easily expandable to add new things if necessary. That means moving around, jumping, picking up and interacting with objects, leaning, etc.

2) Set up NPC AI. It'd end up behaving fairly different from original in many ways since this would be built from scratch. Odds are, they'd end up being smarter. Spot checks will include input from Unreal's dynamic lighting.

3) Set up basic weapon and augmentation classes that can be expanded to add all necessary augmentations and weapons.

4) Set up HUD, inventory, and health system that mimics the original.

The rest would basically be up to whoever picks it up. Maps and models would be built using UDK. Additional weapons, augmentations, and items could be added by re-compiling the client library. NPC behavior would be possible to script, adding factions, dialogs, etc.

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 05:39
If I grab UDK, then I think I could try contribute something. I dabbled in some level design last year, it would be pretty groovy to apply it to a project like this.

Hmm. What scale of a project though? Smething on par with Nameless Mod would be a very long-lasting project.

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 05:44
By the way, do you remember who it was that made an Unreal 3 model of JC? That'd be a pretty good place to start. Grab that model, get a replica level thrown together, and I'd put together the basic HUD and maybe a couple of augs and weapons.

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 06:02
Oh, I know the model you're talking about. I don't remember who made it, too long ago now. Maybe they still lurk here and could reveal themselves?

BTW, I dug up some screens from my old Dimension 3 v2.3/3.0b projects. That engine had some real rendering and mesh UV handling oddities back then. It's still got it's share. XD

Don't mind the stock textures, these were basically me messing around in the program's editor:

Old:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/orangeandblue.png

Very old:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/Picture1_1024x640shkl.png
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/Picture5bloom_1024x640shkl.png

Rindill the Red
6th Dec 2010, 06:12
Well, let me tell you what I can do for all this, and I'd like to know if it'd be worth the time and if you think there would be enough people interested and dedicated enough to take it to some form of conclusion, whether it'd be a straight DX remake, a tie-in, or something that takes place in parallel.

If you really could do all of that I would definitely be willing to jump on board, understanding all the caveats about situations changing and everything.

It's been a long time since I've done any game development stuff, but I've always wanted to dive back in.

Unfortunately, my only background is basic C/C++, Java, and FORTRAN. My knowledge of renderers is woefully dated (I read a book on how to write a software based one about 7 years ago).

I did 3d modeling/texturing/animations as a hobby for a while (using Blender), but never got very far with it.

So what I'm saying is... I'd be up for anything, but may have to learn/re-learn a lot of stuff before I could be helpful.

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 06:19
As far as rendering goes, pretty much the only thing that might need to be done is some custom shaders, but's just for cool FX. Once I have the base set up, you'd be able to do lots by just knowing the basics. A lot of the work would consist of opening a ready weapon/aug file and editing the formulas for damage or ammo/energy consumption. You don't need to know anything about the engine overall for that. That's kind of the whole point of me sitting down and setting up all of the basic stuff at once.

Edit: I'd probably build the whole system to be unified, so that any augmentation/skill/weapon can be given to any NPC/PC, and AI will know how to handle these. (There will be AI "hints" built into definition of each weapon/aug just for that.)

This will probably require me writing a custom character renderer, but I think it'd be worth it.

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 06:29
Interesting.....

I definitely wouldn't mind if they went a bit more personal and less epic... with a multiple ending that was not world-changing but rather emotionally resonant.
I agree, that would take an incredible amount of thought / work to get right but I'd love to see it.

I'm interested, I can do basic modelling / texturing / UDK work (inc terrain, level design, basic matinee, basic materials) but dunno about free time. I doubt you'd need any help with that until the programming work was done anyway. I'm guessing the AI would be the (most) impossible part.

Also heres that model: http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=715355

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 06:35
Alright. Well, I'll grab UDK and see what I can do with it.

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 07:26
Good information on ut3/udk here:
http://www.hourences.com/tutorials/
http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_home.php

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 07:55
Thanks. That first link looks very helpful. Will probably save me the first week worth of headaches.

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 08:30
If this becomes a real thing, it should have it's own forum.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
8th Dec 2010, 20:03
Alright. Well, I'll grab UDK and see what I can do with it.

Will be great if you develop this into a mod, would be willing to get involved.