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pHdeus
11th Apr 2008, 23:55
I am truly impressed by the excellent suggestions that so many people have made on this site for making Dues EX 3 an excellent game. If our friends in Montreal read this site, I am sure that they will find that there is gold to be mined here.

That said I believe that there is one point that is still very important to be made for them and for us here.

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

What is fundamental and necessary is a great story. When I had finally completed Deus Ex 1, when the long list of voice credits began rolling by, I sat and was overcome with one thought: "That was a movie! That was a movie!" One of the most brilliant games ever made was build, engineered, crafted, painted, on the foundation of a great story. I truly believe that if we could shout so loud that they could here us in Montreal, that we should shout only one word: STORY! It is fundamental. It is necessary. It makes possible greatness.

Choice
In my opinion, the conversation about choice as what needs to be somehow optimized is not grounded. Actually Deus Ex 2 did an excellent job, in my assessment, of optimizing choice, while telling a coherent story. I believe that we have already seen what happens when choice becomes a fundamental design parameter. Maximum choice is not grounded in life, nor can the main character be worth being (as in RPG) if they don't have a "path" consistent with who they are. For some reason in Deus Ex 1, I tried to kill smuggler, thinking that I could get items that I did not have money to buy. The game would not let me do that, which was appropriate with who JC Denton was in the game.

And there should be choice as there is in life, but with limits. And actions have consequences. For instance, the choice to kill Gunther now or kill Gunther later was an appropriate one, but not fighting has him (as a choice) was really not consistent with who he was and with JC's betrayal of UNATCO.

...And in the end, it is story that counts most.

I know that you are listening and I hope Montreal is also.
- Peace:o

Vasarto
12th Apr 2008, 03:15
I am truly impressed by the excellent suggestions that so many people have made on this site for making Dues EX 3 an excellent game. If our friends in Montreal read this site, I am sure that they will find that there is gold to be mined here.

That said I believe that there is one point that is still very important to be made for them and for us here.

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

What is fundamental and necessary is a great story. When I had finally completed Deus Ex 1, when the long list of voice credits began rolling by, I sat and was overcome with one thought: "That was a movie! That was a movie!" One of the most brilliant games ever made was build, engineered, crafted, painted, on the foundation of a great story. I truly believe that if we could shout so loud that they could here us in Montreal, that we should shout only one word: STORY! It is fundamental. It is necessary. It makes possible greatness.

Choice
In my opinion, the conversation about choice as what needs to be somehow optimized is not grounded. Actually Deus Ex 2 did an excellent job, in my assessment, of optimizing choice, while telling a coherent story. I believe that we have already seen what happens when choice becomes a fundamental design parameter. Maximum choice is not grounded in life, nor can the main character be worth being (as in RPG) if they don't have a "path" consistent with who they are. For some reason in Deus Ex 1, I tried to kill smuggler, thinking that I could get items that I did not have money to buy. The game would not let me do that, which was appropriate with who JC Denton was in the game.

And there should be choice as there is in life, but with limits. And actions have consequences. For instance, the choice to kill Gunther now or kill Gunther later was an appropriate one, but not fighting has him (as a choice) was really not consistent with who he was and with JC's betrayal of UNATCO.

...And in the end, it is story that counts most.

I know that you are listening and I hope Montreal is also.
- Peace:o

Agreed, The story is what really drived the game but while the story is important. The gameplay needs to be equally great as well.

Blade_hunter
12th Apr 2008, 07:15
The story yes it's an important part, the voices of the characters too (if they are bad it's kill the immersion)
I think what I see in some suggestions about the story, we want a less linear game.
I don't want to say DX is linear, but the main way on the story was linear and the only final levels can change the end of the game.
In DX 2 we have the same thing but they do a better work at this point.

In DX series there is only the inside parts of the story elements, that can be changed.
For exemple in DX 1 in first you are with unatco and after your come back to hell's kitchen the unatco troops becomes officially your ennemies because you have discovered the official proof of their conspiracy. not when you choose to keep lebedev alive. and when paul tell you to join him you can't say you thrust him.
As you say when you wanted to kill an NPC this NPC was invulnerable; and it's keep the linearity of game.
When DX 1 was maded these linear points aren't problematic because today's I continue to play and replay DX 1 when I wanted to return back to this fantastic universe ...
When I do some replays I always discovered some ways some hidden items;
I sometimes changes some parts of the secondary story like with the renton's family.

In DX 3 I think as the suggestions says but perhaps I think wrong, We can be good or bad for exemple.
But this is much complex to be in the game ...
but if we can change the destinations (main level(s)) because we accomplish a mission for one camps the can add more freedom inside the story.
I don't say total changes, but in some important parts of the story can change where you go.
I can't explain it but I see the suggestion is more control on the story, and this control should be extended on the main story ....

But for me the story is important but not so important as the gameplay is, because in DX you pass more time to play (90 - 80%) and (10 - 20%) to speak to anyone or make an action can be change the story.
I say this because more of my actions in DX are gameplay part not only story parts; And to allow a non linear story we must gives some gameplay elements that allow these things.

Dead-Eye
12th Apr 2008, 22:08
Theres one thing I would like to point out here, no matter what you did in the game you always, always stopped MJ12. That was the main driving force for the player to keep moving on. It's the part of the game that never changed. Only the outcome changed.

Larington
12th Apr 2008, 22:41
Dead-Eye is right on that, any good game has some driving element that pulls the player on to the next sequence or experience in the game. DX-IW for all its apparent minor flaws (That add up, sadly) did at least provide the chase for Dr Nassif as a driving force, unfortunately there is the question of just how good a driving force that was. MJ12 was a far more effective protagonist in that regard as its actually possible to hate MJ12 whilst nassif, well, she seems a bit weak and mewling, leaving you feeling sorry for her, not angry with her or even in a particular rush to catch up with her. Doesn't help that in the great scheme of things she isn't that important, the sub plot of the links between order and the WTO are far more important.

pHdeus
13th Apr 2008, 02:24
All good points. This helps me understand different perspectives on this matter. (Also I agree about the Dr. Nassif assessment. It was less dramatic than say rescuing Paul Denton.)

The game designer then has a lot of freedom, and more ways to enrich the story by adding elements that a linear story written on paper cannot provide. Another way to say it is the computer allows one to actually implement more of the elements, that are imagined by the team of designers. And the designers should use this power while remembering what worked in the previous versions of Deus Ex.

That said, I hope that I am completely surprised by Deus Ex 3, that the game is something that I have not requested or imagined, and better than what I could have requested.