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gettrix
10th Apr 2008, 02:03
When you have a game that has it's main focus on handling weapons there are a few things that are extremely important...

-perfectly animated realistic movement while holding a gun-->bobbing instead of gliding while walking or running which is in sync with your movement
-weapon is not fixed to the screen, it is "loose" along with the hand, while you move it around it really feels like you are moving it around-perfect example of such excellence is Half Life 2 series, you even see more or less of your hands when looking up or down.
-perfect reload animations
-3D ironsights with loose end of the barrel-best done in Call of Duty 4
-recoil and firing visuals/effects

So the best shooting immersion is as follows-

1. Battlefield 2142, most realistic bobbing of the weapon while you walk, perfect reload animations- far better than anything I have seen, weapons are not fixed to screen, great recoil and fire visuals. Battlefield 2142 is definitely best rounded in weapons handling fidelity.

2. Half Life 2 series, everything is great except you feel like you are gliding, there is not one bit of motion relayed to your weapon, it really screws things up.

3.Call of Duty 4, same as HL2, still that dumb gliding which ruins the immersion, but reload animations and firing visuals got to a whole new level.

4.Rainbow Six Vegas, I was thinking of putting it in 2nd or 3rd place instead of COD4, you decide.


To give you an idea of the worst weapons handling fidelity in first person perspective I just have to mention one title- Hellgate: London.

Does anybody have any idea where does Deus Ex 3 fit in this?

Also will you have body view like in Dark Messiah or Condemned 2, where you can see everything you do, for example, when climbing ladders unlike that nothingness in Half Life 2, or when swimming you see your hand doing the swimming like in FarCry, again compare it to nothingness in HL2..
And of course, if you put anything on yourself you could see it just like in Dark Messiah or Condemned 2.

Furthermore if you use any equipment, that would also be appropriately animated, like for example, you turn on nightvision in Call of Duty 4 it is followed with animation of you sliding goggles.

All kinds of details like that would really make Deus Ex 3 remarkable.

P.S.
How does Deus Ex 3 stack up with world seamlessness and open-endedness of Far Cry 2, not to mention its real weather system, AI simulation etc.?

gettrix
10th Apr 2008, 20:24
So, nobody knows anything yet?

jordan_a
10th Apr 2008, 20:51
Does anybody have any idea where does Deus Ex 3 fit in this?How could we know?
For my part I don't really care about any of that since I don't want to use any weapon.

I liked the handling on Metal Gear Solid 2 though, you really felt the weight of the weapon.

gettrix
11th Apr 2008, 16:26
Well, this is official forum, maybe developers are reading it so they might answer something...

gamer0004
11th Apr 2008, 17:11
They were reading. however I don't know whether they still do. Anyway, they've never posted anything here, so don't expect to hear from them.

gettrix
11th Apr 2008, 20:05
They were reading. however I don't know whether they still do.

What do you mean by this?

c37579
11th Apr 2008, 21:18
I think he means that the devs were looking at the forums a while back, but lately most of them have stopped, and only a few look at them

plus i dont think the devs will post on the forums or answer any questions.. keeps the suspence :P the only person even close to a dev of the game to post on here was alex brandon, and he did the music in DX, i havn't seen anyone else posting on here...

Kneo24
11th Apr 2008, 23:05
The OP gets a cookie for creating an utterly useless topic and getting people to respond to it.

Blade_hunter
12th Apr 2008, 11:47
It depends if the skills are reintroduced and what we want to do with DX 3

For reaload animations I agree with a realistic reloading system, because you can know why your weapon is harder to reload for exemple,
In DX 1 when you reload the Assault Rifle you never saw the drum of this gun, and the change ammo feature of this gun is something confusing because the grenade launcher mode has the same clip size as the drum
In DX 3 we can enhance it
in TO a mod for UT 99 when you have a the M4 M203 and when you want to use this the grenade launcher mode you press the change fire mode button and your hand use the trigger of the M203 intahead of the trigger of the main cannon.
In the infitration mod for UT we have the first realistic military simulation with real reloads real weapons and some stuff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfiltrationMod

But we can use some realism as DX 1 has used but not full realism like COD4 for exemple
for the animations we can use better animations because most games have better animations, but I don't want a full realism in this game; some parts of the games must be realistic but not transform DX 1 on a COD, BF, Flashpoint or some games like these.
I thin we must keep an easy use of weapons, not too but they mustn't needs to use the ironsight functions like the most recent games.

But I don't know someone wants DX, uses military simulation options or not ...
For me it's your suggestion is fifty fifty because some ideas sounds god and some others makes changes the nature of the game ...

gettrix
12th Apr 2008, 22:31
Primarily what this is about is standard of quality that needs to be present in any game form first person perspective which has its focus on handling weapons among other things, I'm not sure why you mention realism in this context..

I hope they played the games I listed including Crysis and will extract all the best elements. Because I really hate when basic stuff is not right, it ruins everything else...

Larington
12th Apr 2008, 22:48
I'd say I generally agree that all those little touches really add to the game and its immersion.

I also suspect that these forums are locked into the SOE model of suggestion reporting - IE we have a community moderator or representative who is not only dealing with forum issues but also takes on the role of an informer to the development team. Any interesting ideas or discussions that are brought up get forward to the team, perhaps by e-mail. The team still gets the thoughts whilst being able to avoid feeling discouraged by unconstructive ranting that could potentially be very demoralising (A potential project killer). Also, the team is probably now in trenches mode - Keeping their head down, getting the game made and trying not to get too distracted by unneccesary feature creep.

I wouldn't be surprised if some devs are still viewing the forum, but are doing so either in anonymous mode or guest mode, possibly to prevent an aware forumite from saying "hi dev, we wants teh infoes"... Honestly, I wouldn't blame them for making that choice, since I've lost WHOLE days just to various message boards, game development websites and so on - Not a good thing when the project lead needs to see a preliminary render test on that character model (or whatever) that is your personal responsibility to get done!

Kneo24
12th Apr 2008, 23:41
Primarily what this is about is standard of quality that needs to be present in any game form first person perspective which has its focus on handling weapons among other things, I'm not sure why you mention realism in this context..

I hope they played the games I listed including Crysis and will extract all the best elements. Because I really hate when basic stuff is not right, it ruins everything else...

So the lack of head bob and weapon sway bothers you? Those are such minor elements that you should really only care about in "realistic" shooters, which most of the time are **** games anyway.

I don't expect a lot of detail to realism like that in a sci-fi/fantasy game. It's just not necessary.

Besides, you should be paying attention to the overall game, not how your player moves certain parts of his body when they're moving.

gettrix
13th Apr 2008, 08:45
That doesn't make any sense nor is it relevant to anything...

Kneo24
13th Apr 2008, 10:06
That doesn't make any sense nor is it relevant to anything...

Sure it does. From what you wrote, it seems you consider it to be basic polish in a game these days. ...Unless I misunderstood you.

Blade_hunter
13th Apr 2008, 12:24
Deus Ex isn't a fully realistic game and must keep this thing.
In the first DX the handling was good, not perfect but good
The rocket launchers handling was good in DX1 in first person view and in third person view
The rifles too and the others weapons.
The only weapon that have a strange size and handle in DX 1 was the plasma rifle.
Because the weapon looks like to take 6 rooms when I sew it on the ground on the inventory and it have the same size as the GEP gun on the inventory

In DX 2 some weapons should be correct but the SMG and the rocket launcher was bad, The SMG looks like a two handed SMG and is in the game an one handed
The rocket launcher when I saw the designs and in the ground this weapon looks like good but in hand it's an other buisness.

For the reloading animations it depends but a realistic animation is good at this point.
But a fully realistic reloading.
when your clip isn't empty you keep the bullet and when you have reloaded an XM8 for example you have 30 bullets plus one bullet.
when your clip isn't empty because you keep the bullet you didn't pull pack the trigger to engage a bullet in the chamber or put a shell in the chamber like some pump action shotguns.
In the reality you must put your weapon under your eye to seek your target using the iron sight.
When you use a silenced automatic weapon the silencer can break easily because it's overheated after some shots, and it's reduce your effective range and the damage of your bullet.
When you withdraw a semi empty clip of your gun you must put the unused bullets in an other clip or throw and lose the clip with the rest of the bullets.
Your weapons have a projectile delay slow for most of pistols/SMG's caliber and fast for assault/sniper rifle bullets.
When you run you can't aim perfectly as when you stand up and down.
An automatic weapon can overheat after some shots and it must be repaired then we need to change the barrel.
And after some uses the weapon must be maintained
A normal rocket launcher needs to have a free space on the rear to be used.
(the AT4 CS can be used in more closed rooms)
Some rocket launchers are unguided, only the missile launchers are guided, and they are only anti tank (like the Javelin missile system) or only anti aircraft (like the stinger)
Some rocket launchers aren't reloadable after use.
Some weapons like this must be used by 2 operators.
The flamethrowers aren't used because it makes collateral damages ...
I maybe forget some things but if I mention all it can make a bigger list

I don't think a full realism is good to DX, some yes but not full because we must keep the choice between stealth action and brute force action.
The full realm can drop the fun of the game.
Most of your mentioned games that you play or played are more focused on military simulation, but they aren't fully realistic they add at they're manner realm things.
DX 1 adds on its manner the realm, to make the brute force method more difficult to apply, but you can play as a Rambo if you can do this well.
In your games you die when you try this even if you are a good player.
Some players play counter strike because it's not so realistic or they don't know the real function of the weapons.

DX is a mix between some different gameplay's and must keep this spirit, we can envolve each gameplay part and add some new gameplay's things, but some things can break the fun.

But perhaps you want a more enhanced FPS part of this game.
I don't try to say your idea is bad, no but It's not new for a game look at Red Orchestra it's not a bad game, but for me It's not fun, because for realm the weapons are more difficult to use, I prefer the FEAR gameplay (without the slow motion) than the Red Orcherstra gameplay for exemple. In fear the weapons are more easy to use.
I loved DX because sometimes. We have some action moments, in HL2 the only great things for me was the physics and the gravity gun, the rest of the game isn't so funny (most of other weapons sucks).

Chemix
13th Apr 2008, 13:20
little details come together to form a better whole, and while I don't think weapon fidelity should be the center of the game, it should be put into account to make the experience more immersive.

EDIT: Major note on silencers, I would hope to see some game get this right,
Silencers (suppressors) DO NOT SILENCE the gun, as nothing can quiet the sound of the hammer hitting the cap and detonating the gun powder. They suppress most of the gases that would be released from the muzzle of the gun, limiting muzzle flash and causing bullet speed degradation. So while it is significantly quieter, it isn't the "phwett" noise that is often heard in movies (which is the sound of the air-soft guns being used), so you'll be able to hear it within 15-10 feet or less, but it's not so discernible after that range, so it'd be nice if AI would get suspicious, but not immediately sound an alarm, unless an alarm was sounded a bit earlier.

gettrix
16th Apr 2008, 18:34
What do you think about idea to have Rainbow Six Vegas cover/third person perspective like in Gears of War, I think Rainbow Six Vegas really brought revolutionary standard here by seamlessly fusing FPP and TPP, this is especially important to FPS games that want to have RPG elements like STALKER for example. So then you really see all the modifications made to your equipment and clothing like in a classic RPG.

If you played Rainbow Six Vegas and than go to any classic FPS you really get to realize how this concept is superior in every way.

Gary_Savage
16th Apr 2008, 18:53
@gettrix

I guess you missed the thread: Camera work in DX3. music, story line (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75068&highlight=camera)

gettrix
16th Apr 2008, 22:01
That doesn't have anything to do with it, Rainbow Six Vegas isn't even mentioned..

Gary_Savage
16th Apr 2008, 22:07
That doesn't have anything to do with it, Rainbow Six Vegas isn't even mentioned..

What part about first person versus third person (which you brought up, with your Rainbow Six example) was not mentioned there?

gettrix
17th Apr 2008, 09:45
There is no "versus" here, Rainbow Six Vegas fuses both seamlessly.

Voltaire
17th Apr 2008, 10:08
Two points about weapon fidelity:

1) The development of such sequences comes very late on in the production process... before that comes writing, voice talent, character and map design... and pretty much everything else apart from the words on the back of the CD case.

2) Reload sequences, view bobbing and technically perfect weaponry should be realistic to the point where I believe that my protagonist has a gun in his hand, but not a perfectly accurate simulation. So long as the immersive atmosphere is maintained, I personally couldn't care less what my character is doing with bullets leftover in the gun during reload...

Gary_Savage
17th Apr 2008, 14:27
There is no "versus" here, Rainbow Six Vegas fuses both seamlessly.

:lmao: I see you missed the "fuses both seamlessly" part of that thread, too.

Gary_Savage
17th Apr 2008, 14:33
2) ...I personally couldn't care less what my character is doing with bullets leftover in the gun during reload...

Actually, I was thinking about that. It's been ages since the original Operation Flashpoint was released. So, shouldn't it be, technologically, a cinch to NOT have left over rounds automatically transfer over to a new clip? Now, I, personally, would want the weapons reload to work just like it did in DX1, but I would like to know whether the others here want the reloading to work DX1 style, or Operation Flashpoint style.

auric
18th Apr 2008, 02:32
Actually, I was thinking about that. It's been ages since the original Operation Flashpoint was released. So, shouldn't it be, technologically, a cinch to NOT have left over rounds automatically transfer over to a new clip? Now, I, personally, would want the weapons reload to work just like it did in DX1, but I would like to know whether the others here want the reloading to work DX1 style, or Operation Flashpoint style.

I don't know how OF's style is but I do like the DX1's pistol style, where we actually see the clip removed & replaced. :)

I'm all for the realistic reload style, if possible.

As for the ammo leftover thing, some experts may take the time to restock old clips with left overs, I'm sure an Aug fella wouldn't bother.
Maybe if we stay still long enough, we see the hands resetting a random clip for show.
:D

Gary_Savage
18th Apr 2008, 03:29
As for the ammo leftover thing, some experts may take the time to restock old clips with left overs...

That is the part I was trying to draw attention to, when I mentioned Operation Flashpoint. The weapons reload animation in DX1, as far as I am concerned, was just fine.

auric
18th Apr 2008, 04:46
That is the part I was trying to draw attention to, when I mentioned Operation Flashpoint. The weapons reload animation in DX1, as far as I am concerned, was just fine.

DX3 should do better.
DX1 = move hand down, move up & ur done
DX2 = No reload at all, I think, been 2 years since i touch it, lol
maybe reload the same or shorter.
DX3 should try to show a difference. Don't have to be state of the art graphics stuff, Counter Strike lvl is sufficient.
:)

Nathan2000
18th Apr 2008, 08:28
DX3 should do better.
DX1 = move hand down, move up & ur done
DX2 = No reload at all, I think, been 2 years since i touch it, lol
maybe reload the same or shorter.
DX3 should try to show a difference. Don't have to be state of the art graphics stuff, Counter Strike lvl is sufficient.
:)

Time of reload varies depending of the skills, there was a cause behind the system used in DX. If you were making a different one, you'd need to change the speed of the animation (what may not look good) or make a few of them.

auric
18th Apr 2008, 08:34
Time of reload varies depending of the skills, there was a cause behind the system used in DX. If you were making a different one, you'd need to change the speed of the animation (what may not look good) or make a few of them.

Pistol
1st level - Click the clip remove switch, pull it out with 2nd hand & snap a new one in.

2nd level - Click the clip, jerk it out to waiting hand & snap a new one in.

3rd level - Hold it diagonally, Click the clip, let it slide out & at the right time snapping a new one in right away.

:D


Which brings me to something I wanted to add too, Skills should be lesser than 4 levels.
4 is just a bit too high. 3 would be sufficient.
:)

Gary_Savage
18th Apr 2008, 08:45
Skills should be lesser than 4 levels.
4 is just a bit too high. 3 would be sufficient.
:)


I quite like the 4 skill levels. I think the DX1 skill system was very well done, in that you could master some (and get a tremendous sense of satisfaction out of them), but only at the expense of some other skills, which you might have barely developed, if at all. The satisfaction I derived from the DX1 skill system stemmed from the not so insignificant incremental improvements that came with each skill upgrade. I think that 3 levels will make the waiting between upgrades too long, or water down the whole thing, or allow too many skills to be maxed out, by the end of the game. Just my thoughts.

auric
18th Apr 2008, 10:44
I quite like the 4 skill levels. I think the DX1 skill system was very well done, in that you could master some (and get a tremendous sense of satisfaction out of them), but only at the expense of some other skills, which you might have barely developed, if at all. The satisfaction I derived from the DX1 skill system stemmed from the not so insignificant incremental improvements that came with each skill upgrade. I think that 3 levels will make the waiting between upgrades too long, or water down the whole thing, or allow too many skills to be maxed out, by the end of the game. Just my thoughts.

Ahh, but considering it being a prequel, shouldn't the agent be less mastery than JC's standard?
;)

serene_chaos
23rd Apr 2008, 04:05
What does everyone think of the hold-right-click-to-use-the-iron-sight thing? I'm personally very fond of it, and coupling that with no crosshair makes me feel cool.:cool:
but i'm not sure how well it would work in a DX game.

i think reloading needn't be as complicated as operation flashpoint, 'traditional' reloading would be fine. however, if the game turns out to have the realistic style reloading, half empty clips in your belt etc, that would also be fine.

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 06:30
I like Auric's idea of having different reload animations representing different skill levels and reload times. This might be a real pain fro developers though... Say for instance there are 15 reloadable weapons and 4 skill levels. That would mean that there would have to be 60 reload animations. Would be very cool and add to the overall experience quite nicely as you would look forward to achieving a higher level and seeing the new animations.

This would be great if they had time, but if not, then they can just keep it like DX1 and I would be happy :)

@ Serene_chaos: I really like the 'hold-right-click-to-use-the-iron-sight thing' and would not mind seeing it in the game as it adds to the level of immersion. And it makes a big difference when the depth of field kicks in as COD4 did when you looked down the iron-sight.

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 06:44
I really like the 'hold-right-click-to-use-the-iron-sight thing'

What exactly is this "Iron sight"?

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 06:50
It is the point at the end of a gun which is used to aim when the gun is lifted up. The gun usually has a 'V' like point at the back which the shooter lines up with the one at the front. In games when the character lifts the gun up close and aims down it - thats what you call aimig down the iron sight. (Call of Duty games are quite well known for this, amongst many others) ;)

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 06:53
c,

but I don't see how useful that'll be, since we already got a crosshair.
Sounds more like for games who don't use crosshairs.
:)

I forgot the good thing about it, I recall playing a game that does that too.

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 07:07
What it does is it makes you more accurate with a slight (very slight) zoom in. You have more control in the shots that you take. The side effect is that it makes you slower and your peripheral vision decreases. It is a very useful thing and definitely has a place in games with and 'without' crosshairs. You never see real-life police / millitary running around shooting from the hip the whole time... they hold the gun up to aim. (real life doesnt have cross-hairs - the closest thing is lazer sights)

auric
23rd Apr 2008, 07:10
(real life doesnt have cross-hairs - the closest thing is lazer sights)

Anyway i'll add that to the list.
:)

DXeXodus
23rd Apr 2008, 07:13
I am aware of that. Many games have used iron-sight aiming. I was just trying to point out the relevance of such an approach as well as its pro's and con's in a game.

Blade_hunter
26th Apr 2008, 11:31
In real life we haven't crosshairs, yes but crosshairs is the only mean to show us where we fire with the gun with simple programing, Battle field use crosshairs and ironsights. But for most players and more interesting replayability we can make some realm as options that be selected by players this can make the game enjoyable for every one and doesn't need huge program lines ....

serene_chaos
26th Apr 2008, 16:48
when we're firing a gun in real life without aiming with the sight, the best we can do is point the gun and approximate where the bullet will go. using crosshairs in a game is not an approximation, it tells you, pointing to the spot where your gun if pointing. I think that a better representation of real life would be without crosshairs, where we must approximate where the center of the screen is. dont you think?

auric
26th Apr 2008, 16:54
when we're firing a gun in real life without aiming with the sight, the best we can do is point the gun and approximate where the bullet will go. using crosshairs in a game is not an approximation, it tells you, pointing to the spot where your gun if pointing. I think that a better representation of real life would be without crosshairs, where we must approximate where the center of the screen is. dont you think?

In Star Trek: Elite Force 2
I use to play without crosshair, mainly because the 1st weapon don't require ammo. :D
free to fire many times.

Blade_hunter
26th Apr 2008, 17:34
Some crosshairs are approximative ;) and in DX 1 even we have a true crosshair our weapons haven't a 100% accuracy.
the accuracy in DX 1 was approximative.
And as I say the best thing is to propose options for both players, I think this can enlarge the public and the replayability...

Tracer Tong
26th Apr 2008, 17:49
You people are forgetting that DX3 is not an FPS! Well, at least not JUST an FPS...

Anyway the crosshair may be interpreted as some part of the vision augmentation issued to JC. It does not reflect the actual place which the bullet will hit (DX1 has perhaps the most advanced laser sight I ever saw in a game), it just marks the middle of the screen.

If you want FPSie realism, just ask Eidos to add an option to hide the crosshair, as I am going to be very frustrated without it...

auric
26th Apr 2008, 18:08
You people are forgetting that DX3 is not an FPS! Well, at least not JUST an FPS...

Where u got that info?

Tracer Tong
26th Apr 2008, 18:52
Where u got that info?

I mean that it's not a hardcore FPS like CoD or Crysis

Blade_hunter
26th Apr 2008, 23:00
Hum DX is a multiple genre game FPS, RPG, Infiltration, Adventure game.
And if they made optional the fact you can remove the crosshair, if they made optional the real use of weapon, if they made optional full fictional use.
I don't understand why we wants to say the game must be played as Crysis , battlefild, or more unrealistic games like quake or unreal. If we can make some optional uses most of us are content and all have what they want :)
The FPS part is more easy to change than others, in SOF 2 we can change some realm things like the accuracy loss with recoil and the inventory size ....

Chemix
27th Apr 2008, 11:35
I feel odd anymore not using iron sights to aim better when I'm in many FPS games, particularly HL2, though that's probably because the weapons are so blatantly inaccurate except for the 357. and crossbow

Gary_Savage
28th Apr 2008, 00:19
I feel odd anymore not using iron sights to aim better when I'm in many FPS games, particularly HL2, though that's probably because the weapons are so blatantly inaccurate except for the 357. and crossbow

I like iron sights. I used them in Operation Flashpoint, and I really enjoyed it. I would certainly like to see iron sights in DX3. Although I am not good with aiming when firing air rifles (in real life) I found that it is much faster to aim with the iron sights, at short range (that is, when you are untrained), than with a scope. I would like to see that reflected in DX3, or at least have the option of having guns with iron sights, to which we can add scopes (hopefully, removable scopes, so that we can convert a CQB rifle into a designated marksman rifle, and back; if that has any bearing on reality).

Come to think of it, a lot of pistols (in real life) have iron sights. Also, when the military patrols (I don't know if they still do it) train stations in and around New York City (over the last few years) they use rifles with iron sights, rather than scopes. I would like to see that touch of reality reflected in DX3.

gettrix
28th Apr 2008, 04:51
It's completely irrelevant to compare Deus Ex 3 with Deus Ex 1,2 or even other old games..as you clearly notice it was a time of different standards...the new relevant standards in this area are in Call of Duty 4, Crysis and in many ways unmatched Battlefield 2142.



If you want FPSie realism, just ask Eidos to add an option to hide the crosshair, as I am going to be very frustrated without it...

Actually I always play Call of Duty 4 without the crosshairs, it's amazing how your mind adapts at calculation. This can easily be implemented as a part of the game, making laser sights relevant unlike in Deus Ex 1,2...

Blade_hunter
28th Apr 2008, 12:28
Some players here wants use the weapons like BF or COD others wants only DX 1 aiming others perhaps wants an simple aim like DX 2.
Why we must use only one type of aiming then we can use most of them and chose the preferred option before commencing the game; I think all of us have what they want and it's not hard to program and some players that wanted to test an other manner to play can change the options and it's upgrade the replayability of the game only with little changes. this is like the mutators on Unreal Tournament series. with little options we can change the global gameplay and make the game enjoyable for all or for most of us.

What do you think about it?

auric
28th Apr 2008, 12:32
That'll be very nice, it even shows the different choice of how u want to shoot ur gun. ;)

Chemix
28th Apr 2008, 18:43
I like for most options to actually be a part of the game, and iron-sights isn't mutually exclusive to crosshairs, you can have both, one simply taking more time, but the other reducing speed and limiting peripheral vision. It doesn't need to be a checkbox, just a key on the keyboard to bright the gun up or leave it by your hip would be fine.

jcp28
28th Apr 2008, 19:52
My opinion on auto-aim for Deus Ex 3 is that you should have the option of whether you want it on or off. Many people don't always know where exactly bullets will strike a person or object without some kind of indicator that shows where the gun is pointing towards. I have played games without crosshairs before. They usually went okay, despite that my accuracy decreased. However, when shooting someone from a distance, it gets very hard to accurately fire without the crosshair to help center the aim. And if distance shooting is a possible way to get through certain areas of DX 3, then I know I want a crosshair.

Voltaire
28th Apr 2008, 20:01
I like for most options to actually be a part of the game, and iron-sights isn't mutually exclusive to crosshairs, you can have both, one simply taking more time, but the other reducing speed and limiting peripheral vision. It doesn't need to be a checkbox, just a key on the keyboard to bright the gun up or leave it by your hip would be fine.

This is a central feature of the Medal of Honour series of games, crosshairs always present, ironsight available at the touch of L1 (on ps2)

So it works

gettrix
2nd Jul 2008, 02:02
Have you seen Battlefield: Bad Company?
I hope Deus Ex 3 will have that kind of quality animation(reload, firing, dynamic interaction with body, etc.) of weapons and design.
And the destructibility and audioHDR are unbelievable!

btw-
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/badcompanypc/index.html

Kevyne-Shandris
2nd Jul 2008, 02:57
Have you seen Battlefield: Bad Company?

No. It's like watching the DX:IW for the Battlefield series. With the literal 'toons, even has Spector's thumbprint on it.

Chemix
2nd Jul 2008, 03:52
It's a comedy that takes the piss out of lots of "serious" first person shooters, and lets you blow stuff up.

HouseOfPain
2nd Jul 2008, 03:59
Dont know if this has been said, but I dont feel like reading three pages of comments.


i like games where you can look down and see your feet/legs. I like games where WHEN you look down, the bottom of the knife you are holding comes into view, because if you didnt, it would be like you were standing up, but with your torso and everything above COMPLETELY horizontal. Or you hold your weapon in front of your eyes. I dont know how to get it to work but I dont like how when your character is firing from the hip the view of the gun is RIGHT in your screen, I like the screen and everything you see on it to be like a camera pointing out of your eyes. A lot of games make it feel like the camera is pointing out of their chests.

You guys see my point?:scratch:

HouseOfPain
2nd Jul 2008, 04:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oETS0rL9spo

The best weapon Fidelity IMO is in The Darkness, if you look down, you can see more of his arms.. and if he walks up aginst a wall, his guns go up in the air, (Alot of problems with not doing this is like in Team Fortress, when I want to ambush an enemy with the pyro I have the long flame throwers, and when I get behind a corner it doesnt look like it is sticking out. However from a third person view its OBVIOUSLY sticking out of the corner, gah!


P.S. whenever you slightly pulled in the trigger of your controller, Jamie's finger (in the darkness) would slightly tighten on his pistol trigger, and when you pushed down all the way, he would pull all the way, it was SO cool :D

Blade_hunter
2nd Jul 2008, 06:17
I didn't know if I make the suggestion but I wanted to add a foot shot like for example DN 3d (with more realism of course) the vid of house of pain remember that to me
The fact we can see our body parts in a first person view was introduced by the game GORE ultimate soldier, and adds great immersion to the game, some upcoming games or games like FEAR have this feature

In the game RTCW we can use foot shots, not very useful but fun to use, some games allow us to use the stock of the weapon to knock enemies used sometimes as a secondary fire mode aviable in certain weapons generally shotguns or in a complementary mode used with all ranged weapons. Both FPS and third person games have this kind of features...

For the handle fidelity I know it was an immersion issue but I don't think they put the Q3 handle, or UT2k3 handle.

But I think a question must be ask like what are games with the worst handle and what are the game with the best handle ?
I see some battlefield and MOH games, but I wanted to see much variety and some game mods can be mentioned and the mod Infiltration for unreal have great weapon handle for example

Lo Bruto
2nd Jul 2008, 06:55
Remember this is not a military simulator nor a run'n'gun (not if you don't want to) so things like handling fidelity, crosshairs , etc concerns me more on games like Battlefield, Rainbow 6 or MOH.

Even if you stay the whole game fighting with a crowbar, if the game's story come at least close to the original, then I'll be satisfied. :rolleyes:

gettrix
2nd Jul 2008, 07:56
Currently the best weapons handling fidelity/animation/visuals is in Crysis and Battlefield: Bad Company.

After those two it's Half Life 2 and Call of Duty 4(stiffness problem).

Also you have to watch this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N1TJP1cxmo

it's about FPP(First Person Perspective) immersion.

gettrix
3rd Jul 2008, 05:45
For more FPP(not weapons) immersion example that would be great for Deus Ex 3 check out The Chronicles of R i d d i c k : Escape from Butcher Bay. It's a pure masterpiece and even today has better graphics and motion capture than even recent games.

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 06:42
God. Not only a Sierra title (a game company that really knows how to BUTCHER videogames), but a console dreamland.

Haven't owned a console since that '78 Magnavox, and that was the last one I'd ever buy. Besides, the future of consoles is doomed anyway -- it can't keep up with how fast technology changes. Having a mini-computer for games, also defeats the utility of even having a console.

Consoles are doomed.

Romeo
3rd Jul 2008, 08:19
BattleField: Bad Company felt fairly nice in terms of weapons. But so far, I have yet to see ANY game actually perform automatic-weapons recoil in the proper manner (with the gun pulling up and to the right slightly). Another nice touch would be occasional jams during reloads, a la Gears of War.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2008, 12:13
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=76681

I've made a thread about the jam and other weapon features

gettrix
3rd Jul 2008, 14:19
Consoles are doomed.

I also hate consoles, it is very clear that they halt the progress of gaming industry and ruin games. Even if a certain game is being simultaneously developed on 3 platforms the PC version is less than what it could be just because other versions are for inferior consoles.
Still, I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the quality of Bad Company and why would you even mention this.

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 15:03
Still, I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the quality of Bad Company and why would you even mention this.

When did Sierra make the Battlefield series? Now that would be a horror!

Laputin Man
3rd Jul 2008, 16:55
No. It's like watching the DX:IW for the Battlefield series. With the literal 'toons, even has Spector's thumbprint on it.



What? You mean Smith right? Harvey Smith.

Romeo
3rd Jul 2008, 16:59
There's a reason consoles are so prominent these days, too many PC players are downloading pirated games, leaving the devellopers without a large enough fanbase actually buying the game. Secondly, too many people can't afford to continually keep updating a couple thousand dollar device every year just to keep up, thus, consoles keep things cheap, and regulated for those people. But I like the way so many people here try to look at console as a scapegoat. Wow people, ONE game you played suffered quality problems when it went the way of the console. But you know what? That's not the console's fault, that's the develloper's. Moreover, more games these days are able to focus on quality instead of fretting whether people's computers will be able to run it. There will always be a place for computers, as games like RTS's will never be as good on a console as they are on PC, but the PC, not the console, is going the way of the dinosaurs. So quit trying to put your blame on consoles and start looking at who's really to blame, namely: Pirates and devellopers.

Now, as to the topic at hand, like the gentleman above me said, Crysis and BattleField: Bad Company are both fairly good examples of how weapons are technically handled. And I also really liked whoever suggested letting the player decide how simulative or arcade they want the guns to handle. Although, is that technically possible? As they handle, look, react, move, shoot and just generally ARE different from one another. That would take alot of programming. So the question is: Would you prefer and arcade style of shooting, or a more realistic style?

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 17:01
What? You mean Smith right? Harvey Smith.

Which DX dev had a fascination with 'toons? Which DX dev who's studio now has been bought out by Disney?

Harvey Smith? After watching that interview, I'd be scared of him being around 'toons!

Kevyne-Shandris
3rd Jul 2008, 17:05
too many PC players are downloading pirated games, leaving the devellopers without a large enough fanbase actually buying the game.

Point is: people have been stealing games all the way back to the 80s (and probably even before). The only difference now is corporate wants to squeeze the last penny out of the enterprise.

Like the RIAA didn't evolve with the times, publishers didn't, and dropped the ball. Always seems to take third parties to do their job for them (Napster and now D2D). The process to get there a full three ring circus.

Romeo
3rd Jul 2008, 17:17
Back in the '80s, piracy wasn't quite as big an epidemic. Besides, in the '80s, videogames had relatively low budgets, so even if one did fair quite poorly, it was of little consequence. Today, most games have budgets larger than blockbuster films do; Doing poorly today could mean bankrupcy for a company.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2008, 17:46
The piracy is not the true reason, some console players use pirated games, even is the piracy is harder compared to PC.
but most gamers are console gamers, to play the console is cheaper compared to a PC, most guy's play to consoles not to a PC, and the game press is more turned to consoles instead of PC's, even if the most evolved games are in PC's, because the PC is a platform that allow us to make any program, the PC is powerful compared to a console.
That's the reason the PC's have better games when the game don't come from a console of course.
But the consoles have more exclusive games than PC's and that's a reason most players have consoles and play with consoles.
The piracy is everywhere and we can play to pirated console games in a PC with emulators...

The true reason is not the piracy it's the game market.

For the rest I prefer we return back to the main subject

gettrix
4th Jul 2008, 03:05
i like games where you can look down and see your feet/legs. I like games where WHEN you look down, the bottom of the knife you are holding comes into view, because if you didnt, it would be like you were standing up, but with your torso and everything above COMPLETELY horizontal.

1.The Chronicles of R i d d i c k :Escape From Butcher Bay -one of the best games ever made

2.Dark Messiah of Might and Magic

3. Condemned 2

I would also like to see many of these elements in those games in Deus Ex 3. Maybe even FPP to TPP switch like in Rid d i c k would be nice.
I just hope Deus Ex 3 will be proper RPG where you can upgrade your weapons skills like in original Deus Ex or like in Resident Evil 4.

Romeo
4th Jul 2008, 04:23
Again, as others have said, you need to go one way or the other, but don't switch between FPS and TPS, it just ruins the atmosphere completely.

gettrix
4th Jul 2008, 08:11
Again, as others have said, you need to go one way or the other, but don't switch between FPS and TPS, it just ruins the atmosphere completely.

I'm not so sure, I liked it very much when in Halo:Combat Evolved you can see yourself jumping in/out of vehicles/turrets and operating them.
Same goes for R i d d i c k, I don't see how anything can be ruined if it is done properly.

Also in Gears of War, you just right click and it's like FPS with your face.

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 17:53
I agree with him when I play red faction even the old game shadow warrior when we use the vehicles we stay always in first person view the switch by a kind of action made kills the immersion, FPS players like FPS because we see the world with the eyes of our character, if we make a switch by making any action, like take cover, use a vehicle, climb a ladder or what ever this removes the immersion.
Most games uses this form of switches, if you want a 3rd person camera in a FPS this must be a switch button between FPS view and TPS view, not like many games that uses that kind of switch.
And with Gears of war they put the camera in our shoulder when you aim, because it's to avoid the FPS switch, and make the aim easy, like splinter cell when we are on shoot mode.

For the weapon handling for me as I said it's not the most important thing even if for me it's better if this kind of stuff is well made, for me it's a good addition but if they fail a bit on this I won't cry or don't buy the game for it.
But I never want a sort of automatic switch when we do an action, if you want to play with a 3rd person view I don't suggest, they don't add this kind of feature, but if it's added, no for this crap of automatic switch, I want to play an FPS, and the nature of the game is an FPS, not a game with an automatic view change.

DX was immersive because no switch, but in cut scenes we have a switch, yes, but this act like a cutscene and in a cutscene rare are the games that keeps the first person view, but during the action I don't want to be switched automatically when I lean, when I use my biomods, my suits, my vehicles or what ever that can change the view in other games.

gettrix
7th Jul 2008, 10:43
I don't want TPP per se, Dark Messiah proved perfectly how FPP can be superbly done and still be aware of your body, to the point of seeing different clothes and gloves, not to mention everything else when interacting with the world or fighting.
As for weapons handling fidelity, if it won't be done as well as in Battlefield: Bad company or as in Crysis it will greatly diminish the enjoyment(or COD4 but without the stiffness issue) of the game.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2008, 12:43
What are for you the games with a bad handling fidelity because some FPS have a bad handling fidelity ?

And give us the reason because all games mentioned uses ironsights. why you don't mention the games without the ironsight or whatever...

Chemix
7th Jul 2008, 15:38
Because if you're not looking down the sights, you're holding it at the hip or with the hand stretched out, and no one who knows how to use a weapon will fire from the hip to aim propperly. Think back to how ridiculous characters looked in DX holding up the Assault Rifle (AKA: The useless gun for the player, the bad gun for the player to run into at close range) with one hand while running...

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2008, 21:27
I'm forced to agree with that, yes, rare are the guns in DX with a correct handling fidelity, this sometimes disturbed me a little because it removes the realism ...

Romeo
8th Jul 2008, 07:16
I'm not so sure, I liked it very much when in Halo:Combat Evolved you can see yourself jumping in/out of vehicles/turrets and operating them.
Same goes for R i d d i c k, I don't see how anything can be ruined if it is done properly.

Also in Gears of War, you just right click and it's like FPS with your face.

But in Gears it is still always third-person (Sniper scoped exempt, for an obvious reason). And Halo would benefit from staying in FPP.

dbgtwill1
20th Jul 2008, 23:12
i tend to agree with blade runner on the page before this.
but i beleive(that spelling escapes me right now LOL) that console's and pc's dying isn't going to happen i think we will end up with hybrid's(console/pc)i mean look at the ps3
the graphics arn't up 2 par with pc but they are deacent and with the right coding the CELL proc could match any other proc out.Look up Mini-itx with pci-E now add a Cell proc option and you've got a super compact console size pc
add a small linux OS with an instant on OS(like xbox/Ps3)
with drivers for a gamepad controller and you've got a super system.most consoles these days are low budget computers anyways.I mean they even got a Yellowdog linux option for the Ps3.
These thing arn't scifi there real and possible.
there will always be a piracy group out so far they've cracked every anti-piracy devise(for lack of better word)
and probly keep on till things are cheaper.


dang that was a rant srry folks lol
dbgtwill1:lmao: :lol: