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Vasarto
7th Apr 2008, 03:09
As far as Violence or the gameplay and Story goes. How mature do you believe Deus Ex 3 should be? Do you feel it should be more Violent or
More mature in the sense of its gameplay and Story? A little of both
or less mature like an T rated game?

jordan_a
7th Apr 2008, 07:21
Well... I guess the answer is obvious, isn't it? :confused:

Nathan2000
7th Apr 2008, 07:35
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3140/155oa5.gif http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3857/117ge9.gif http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/3490/111re5.gif http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3319/112zu6.gif

...if you ask me.:rolleyes:

Unstoppable
7th Apr 2008, 14:00
Well I don't mind if it's a Teen rated game but if it's 17+ that's fine.

GruntOwner
7th Apr 2008, 14:24
As long as I don't feel like I'm being spoon fed politics. DX actually treated the player like an adult and had logical conversations about things like dictatorship and past events, IW tried to make it seem unusual that a company would be operating under two fronts and had almost no where near as awesome a diabolical plot. I don't want combat to be dulled down to a childish level, b ut really the combat is just another feature with DX so the main reasons for it's rating should come from the target audience being mature about things like drug abuse and politics, seeing them for what they are instead of a fashion statement and something irrelevant.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Apr 2008, 16:14
Well said. I think a major strength of the first Deus Ex was the level of trust granted to the player. The designers didn't waste hours of time holding the player's hand and walking them through terminology like "memetic theory," "plasmid vectors," "colloid modules," etc. Instead, they used these terms in context (just like a real, breathing scientist/sociologist would in communication with another) and trusted the player to do research on their own.

And for the most part, from what I can tell, the science end of Deus holds up pretty well. I hope Deus Ex 3 is equally well-researched, and I hope the designers trust us (the gaming public) enough to "get" it.

-Wildcat

Blade_hunter
7th Apr 2008, 16:16
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/3490/111re5.gif (http://imageshack.us)http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3319/112zu6.gif (http://imageshack.us)http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8072/115ot0.gif (http://imageshack.us)http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3857/117ge9.gif (http://imageshack.us)http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3140/155oa5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Perhaps this http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6201/156kc4.gif (http://imageshack.us) , but it should be not so mature I think.

Nathan2000 forget the third panel ...

AaronJ
7th Apr 2008, 17:53
ESRB is off their rocker lately, as are all rating boards for everything now. It will be rated M for having guns.

GruntOwner
7th Apr 2008, 18:26
Fortunately getting a game rating comes down to the publisher, Eidos, so ESRB might not end up being responsible for it. PEGI is in operation over here in England and despite being occaisionally overzealous their rules state that it is entirely at the discretion of the guardian if the player is underaged, so unless the BBFC or ESRB actually seem like a good idea at the time they probably won't rate it, it'll just be PEGI and their reccomended age limits.;)

rhalibus
7th Apr 2008, 18:46
DX1 and DX2 were both M for Mature in the US due to "Animated Blood and Violence"; DX3 should follow the same path.

In DX1 you could actually gib NPCs, and MIBs would explode after death--I'd like that to come back as well. :D

DX1 was always a mature game; not just because of the violence and blood but because of the deep political issues.

Inane Mythos
7th Apr 2008, 19:37
I think #3 should be mature but not for maturity's sake.

Drugs would/should be in as it's what keeps a lot of the population going (ala DX1) so there was a reason for it.
There's obviously going to be Violence and some foul language.
Discrimination is taboo but in a world as torn up as Deus Ex's, I can't imagine there wouldn't be any.

It's all about keeping it realistic and setting it to suit the mood/atmosphere/relative to the game.

Blade_hunter
7th Apr 2008, 21:22
For me the DX's series contains great elements on the story that gives to the players something phylosophical about politics, money, society, discrimination between each kind of people, the think about technologies and more....
the what each thing can influance the people's mind.
In DX JC has one kind of thinking, he's stay opened to hear each opinion and gives his own opinion.
Sometimes we can choose what he wants to say ...

If in DX 3 we can choose during the game what our character thinks more times than the previous series it can make more sence for each ending and can influence certain NPC's to be more favourable to you or not, they are not true ally's but they can be a sort of friends we can encounter at each come back like in DX 1 when we come back to hell's kitchen, the unatco base, Battery park for exemple.

I think most of us thinks the game is somehing adult and must keep this spirit

Vasarto
8th Apr 2008, 01:19
Well I believe it should be more mature in the sense of the story itself and the Small things that are added to the game rather than bloody over the top graphic violance that Gears of war and Bioshock had. For a second here Ill stray off topic to make a small point before I progress with this. Gears of war, I never played it but looking at it. I just cannot see how people could ever possibly think that a game like that is anything remotly near a great video game. The blood on the screen pisses me off really badly. However it was due to its Maturity in the Graphic violance that made it a mature rated game. Bioshock as well with its enviorments and its combat.

I do not want Deus Ex to become anything like that. The maturity that I
would like to see would be more in the smaller things. Such as Doing drugs like Zyme! Small bad words here and there but nothing like how sailors talk.
Some blood is needed for realizm but I think we it should be kept to a minimal so that its not too graphical and makes the developers focus too much on the graphic violent part rather than the gameplay,story and most importantly the level designs.

So rather than its dialog and Combat being what defines its maturaty I want all of the smaller elements in the game to be what makes it a mature game.

Gary_Savage
8th Apr 2008, 16:12
DX3 should definitely be mature, in terms of the politics, the conspiracies, the society at large, the way business is conducted by honest businesses, as well as extorting gangs, etc. As for blood and gore, the sounds of people having conjugal relations in a nearby room (as in the 'Ton Hotel, in DX1), any lurid pictures on the walls (okay, I only saw this in Max Payne, but it is not unlikely that an agent tracks someone down to a red light district), and things like that, I would want a parental control, as some of the players may have kids in the house. When I first played DX1, I had a 7 year old brother in the room, and I am glad I did not explore the 'Ton too well, at the time. So, for those of us who might have to play in the presence of a kid in the house, I think parental control is essential. Sure, the real meat of a DX game, i.e., the politics, the conspiracies, etc., is mature, but they are not things that a kid would understand, and so do not warrant any censorship. I believe that as long as these things are there, we can have an immersive experience, even without a lot of blood and gore.

Vasarto
9th Apr 2008, 03:44
DX3 should definitely be mature, in terms of the politics, the conspiracies, the society at large, the way business is conducted by honest businesses, as well as extorting gangs, etc. As for blood and gore, the sounds of people having conjugal relations in a nearby room (as in the 'Ton Hotel, in DX1), any lurid pictures on the walls (okay, I only saw this in Max Payne, but it is not unlikely that an agent tracks someone down to a red light district), and things like that, I would want a parental control, as some of the players may have kids in the house. When I first played DX1, I had a 7 year old brother in the room, and I am glad I did not explore the 'Ton too well, at the time. So, for those of us who might have to play in the presence of a kid in the house, I think parental control is essential. Sure, the real meat of a DX game, i.e., the politics, the conspiracies, etc., is mature, but they are not things that a kid would understand, and so do not warrant any censorship. I believe that as long as these things are there, we can have an immersive experience, even without a lot of blood and gore.

So it should be the Political parts of it along with the Extreamly Complex conspiracies that should Ultimatly define how mature or sophisticated Deus Ex 3 should be? With of course the violence and other small parts of it thrown in as well like what you said about the ton hotel?

Interesting. I guess that would make for an even smarter and more in depth game than before. Sorta would almost make Deus Ex 3 more of a Drama/FPS than a FPS/RPG than wouldn't it!? If that would be the case than I would be all for it.
I mean think of how many games there are that are exactly like Gears of War,Bioshock,Call of Duty,there are or how many
games that are simulare to them in their ranks and compair it to DX 1&2. Chances are you will find they are no-where anything alike in gameplay or story. In fact this is just my opinion but as great as I though Bioshock and COD4 was they don't compair to the experiance I got from DX1

Blade_hunter
9th Apr 2008, 17:38
As most people here says the game must keep is adult side and the phylosophy, but I want as rhalibus says the come back of the gore as DX 1 has, the violence is a part of the game, and the adult thinks too. DX 3 must keep this because there was for me good parts of the game and if someone doesn't like violence as most games in the world we can turn Off the violence or reduce it.
As some other guys arround here DX 3 must be more adult than the previous games or keep the same spirit; In the teaser we can see some things would says the game will be an adult game in therms of thinking.
In this point the game should be good I hope :)

Gary_Savage
10th Apr 2008, 02:25
Hey, don't you want the sounds of personal relations ('Ton Hotel, DX1, when Jo-Jo is in running the show) to be censorable, as well? Personally, I would play with full-blown blood and gore (though it made me feel kind of sick, while playing Soldier of Fortune), but when there's a kid the room, the parental controls should go up.

auric
10th Apr 2008, 03:12
Well whatever it is, I hope we don't get bouncing penguins again.

A body should splatter when a bomb explode beside it.
Not sure about permanent body marks of where you shoot or slice, that I leave it up to them.
:)

Story is important, violence is just extras for realism. Doesn't have to be about it.

Vasarto
10th Apr 2008, 19:10
Well whatever it is, I hope we don't get bouncing penguins again.

A body should splatter when a bomb explode beside it.
Not sure about permanent body marks of where you shoot or slice, that I leave it up to them.
:)

Story is important, violence is just extras for realism. Doesn't have to be about it.

Bouncing Penguins? Like what prinnys do on disgaea before they explode when throw?:lol:

IceBallz
10th Apr 2008, 20:24
Ubermature ja ja, das gut...

auric
10th Apr 2008, 20:39
Bouncing Penguins? Like what prinnys do on disgaea before they explode when throw?:lol:

No, these don't explode.

when u shoot/drop a bomb at a dead body, it bounces. Penguins included, in the arctic level.
:D

dani
10th Apr 2008, 21:03
It has to be violent. Keep it realistic: drugs, sex, and a lot of blood (executions). Killing children was a very nice thing in the original Deus Ex. Killing black people and handicapped would be nice in the new game. BUT IT HAS TO BE THE PLAEYRS CHOISE. THE PLAYERS FREEDOM TO DO OR NOT TO DO THINGS. REMEMBER, SOME PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE A BAD CHARACTER.

Tracer Tong
20th Apr 2008, 20:53
Yeah, morality is the main maturity issue here. The last thing that DX3 needs is over-violence as in Gears of War. The thing about ripping bodies to two just for fun is the main attraction for teen, and although the M rating they keep buying those games, because they (the teen youngsters) are the real audience of these games.

Using children as a moral issue was one of the best decisions in the making of DX1. It was very groundbreaking, because until then there was no use of children with the exception of being invincible hostages. What DX3 should add in the dystopia that is their world is the lack of naiveness in the children (such as pickpocketing children who steal a tiny amount of credits), but also keep them...children (as in "please save my mommy" Little Chad in Paris)

IMHO DX3 should be AO just because of its complex content and the lack of obedience of the buying crowd... But that would just lower the profits. Keep it M because of the guns, silly ESRB/PEGI

Voltaire
20th Apr 2008, 21:10
It has to be violent. Keep it realistic: drugs, sex, and a lot of blood (executions). Killing children was a very nice thing in the original Deus Ex. Killing black people and handicapped would be nice in the new game. BUT IT HAS TO BE THE PLAEYRS CHOISE. THE PLAYERS FREEDOM TO DO OR NOT TO DO THINGS. REMEMBER, SOME PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE A BAD CHARACTER.

Wait. What? Are you like, some kind of FPS nazi?

Are you Angry German Kid?

Let's keep the personal physical discrimination to a minimum within these panels. Next you'll be suggesting that JC visits a synagogue...

EDIT: As for the maturity issue (kinda got sidetracked) I think that there should be a maturity toggle switch. It wouldn't be hard now, would it?

Blade_hunter
20th Apr 2008, 21:49
Wow I never read the dani post :eek:
Ok in the DX games you can do this, but ......
:scratch: :nut:
Ok for more kind of people, for the variety and the immersion; but ......

I preferred to see more sexy girls of all kinds than make people for be killed even if you can make this kind of action.

auric
20th Apr 2008, 21:52
Wow I never read the dani post :eek:
Ok in the DX games you can do this, but ......
:scratch: :nut:
Ok for more kind of people, for the variety and the immersion; but ......

I preferred to see more sexy girls of all kinds than make people for be killed even if you can make this kind of action.

"To hit a woman or not."
;)

Blade_hunter
20th Apr 2008, 21:56
I prefer looking and spill my drink :D

auric
20th Apr 2008, 22:26
I prefer looking and spill my drink :D

What did u do to Maggie Chow?
:)

Had a sword duel.

pauldenton
21st Apr 2008, 01:29
Wait. What? Are you like, some kind of FPS nazi?

Are you Angry German Kid?

Let's keep the personal physical discrimination to a minimum within these panels. Next you'll be suggesting that JC visits a synagogue...

EDIT: As for the maturity issue (kinda got sidetracked) I think that there should be a maturity toggle switch. It wouldn't be hard now, would it?

it sounds to me as if danni is suggesting a removal of ALL taboos to allow the player more freedom of expression and consequences.

the only Nazi here is YOU acting like the liberal fascist thought police, screaming your bile and hate, trying to shut down ideas and debate using abuse and racism - oh the Irony!

serene_chaos
21st Apr 2008, 03:00
I agree with Dani.
things that get more mature ratings need to be there, in the name of realism. if i shoot someone in the head i need their body to fall properly, and their scream to be realistic. i need the blood to splatter on the wall behind them.
i will notice if people dont swear, ever. of if they dont ever bring up controversial topics, and it will bug me.
I want to be able to (role)play as a psychotic bastard-man nazi. (it'd be even more awesome if the game recognised my discrimination! but maybe thats getting hopes up, or getting detracted)

themes and subject matter shouldnt affect the rating, but should be precisely akin to what happens in the real world. there will be no excuse for eidos subduing the themes of corruption, extortion, conspiracies etc.

Overall, realism is what it should strive for, and if that gets a nasty rating, then so be it. that's what it takes.

Voltaire
21st Apr 2008, 06:46
it sounds to me as if danni is suggesting a removal of ALL taboos to allow the player more freedom of expression and consequences.

the only Nazi here is YOU acting like the liberal fascist thought police, screaming your bile and hate, trying to shut down ideas and debate using abuse and racism - oh the Irony!

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that it was "nazi" to discourage ritual dismemberment of the physically disabled and black people of the world, just because they are how they are! Excuse me for suggesting that genocide is a Nazi trait.

As for the AGK reference, maybe that was uncalled for, but 'twas tongue-in-cheek at worst. And liberal fascist is an oxymoron. :rasp:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Blade_hunter
21st Apr 2008, 10:42
With Maggy Show depends sometimes I killed her with my dragon tooth, an head shot, a crossbow dart, the prod or throw a scramble grenade, the flamethrower and put the spider bots against Her...

Jima B
21st Apr 2008, 10:48
I shot her.


Should be very mature; for realisms sake. :)

GruntOwner
21st Apr 2008, 15:12
If going on a mass murder didn't involve serious consequences, I'd look for the rockstar logo on the back of my case. The violence is just an extension of the graphics, and the graphics have their place, but DX is about involving story, the illusion of choice and politics that most gamers would struggle to comprehend. As such I refuse to compare Deus Ex to any pure shooter, be it Tom Clancy or Halo. The brutal blood spatter has it's place. Gears is a good game in its own way, just like Deus Ex is a good game in its own way, but the 2 should never meet. Mindless violence=stress relief though not the sort of thing you want to bring up as a water cooler moment. Deep politics=The sort of thing that I would happily quote in a formal meeting.

Blade_hunter
21st Apr 2008, 18:08
I agree with you, deus ex isn't a pure shooter and it's that thing it makes the game great. and the violence is only a realm part but like you I want more maturity on the philosophic part of the game.
Some other things enhance the game experience ... full violence is a realistic thing and the first game make this correctly

Vasarto
21st Apr 2008, 18:31
I agree with you, deus ex isn't a pure shooter and it's that thing it makes the game great. and the violence is only a realm part but like you I want more maturity on the philosophic part of the game.
Some other things enhance the game experience ... full violence is a realistic thing and the first game make this correctly

Yes right it revolves more around the philosophical aspects and the people around you than it does the shooting.


I noticed some of you were talking about how you killed maggie chow.
I snuck into her appartment and shot her in the head with a silenced
sniper rifle. Than I hacked into some computers and snuck in and took
the sword.

pauldenton
21st Apr 2008, 19:01
I'm sorry,
liberal fascist is an oxymoron. :rasp:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

indeed it is, and how ironic that those who liked to be `classed` as liberals cannot see the irony of their fascistic methods! hence the mocking oxymoron - liberal fascists.

Unfortunately it was already clear that this would go way over your head.

Tracer Tong
21st Apr 2008, 21:27
The dani post is very violence-oriented, but it could be interpreted in many other ways..

Also, it seems that I misread that post. I do not support violence against children or something of the sort, just the freedom to do so in DX3. :eek:

Voltaire
22nd Apr 2008, 13:41
indeed it is, and how ironic that those who liked to be `classed` as liberals cannot see the irony of their fascistic methods! hence the mocking oxymoron - liberal fascists.

Unfortunately it was already clear that this would go way over your head.

I bow to your politically-charged forum prowess. I'm clearly the one who is being over-reactive and downright ignorant here. :whistle:

At the end of the day, maybe the "fascistic" (ahem) posters on this forum are the ones that kick off immediately when a fellow member takes offence at a post that they see as... well, offensive.

Well, let's hope my computer crashes or the server accidentally wipes my account. Something needs to stop me "screaming bile and hate".

GruntOwner
22nd Apr 2008, 14:02
Voltaire, pauldenton,
http://wiki.rpg.net/images/2/22/MPost26122-TakeittoTangency2.jpg
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Voltaire
22nd Apr 2008, 14:51
Point taken.

I step down from this particular topic of conversation, extending an olive branch.

minus0ne
22nd Apr 2008, 17:38
Dani may sound violent, but he does have a point. Most games nowadays avoid situations so that kind of violence is simply impossible (ie, entire games without a single kid or woman, and if you think that sounds weird, go back and play some of your favourite games).

If the player wants to go berserk, that's his choice. It's outrageous to design a game in such a way, that this would be impossible. RPG doesn't just mean stats, skills and exploration, it also means playing a character, preferably with as much choice in the matter as possible. So whereas I like playing Deus Ex as a stealthy infiltrator who saves the world, others may prefer playing it as a psycho-mech killing everything in sight who destroys the world.

In Deus Ex, they very much designed JC Denton in such a way, both of these characters could fit the protagonist. He could be a 'saint' who goes for zero bodycount, or someone evil who deals some drugs on the side (or kills the dealers or both) and kills everything and everyone, and pretty much everything in between these two extremes.

You can't discourage a player who goes for the evil playthrough, to walk the game's evil path, not even by removing kids, women and black people (wtf?) from the game, that's the most absurd notion I have ever heard concerning game content.

There could be a maturity slider in this game, as long as it doesn't interfere with the full-on setting. DX3 won't be a kids game (ala Halo), but if they choose to play it I guess they need a setting like that to justify playing it to their parents :lol:

B0b_P@ge
22nd Apr 2008, 23:52
The ability to be play as a mean, sadistic, cold-blooded SOB who doesn't blink/care when civilians get caught in the crossfire exchange between himself and corrupt authority...should definitely be a playable style. The inability to play such a style robs the 3 from Deus Ex 3 title. ;) If I remember correctly, Warren talked about how 'Snake Blisskin' from Escape From NY was one of the playing styles he wanted to give the players as ONE OF THE MANY playing styles available.

... And I guess if I interpret Dani's comments correctly, having more ethnic diversity in DX3 would be a good think? I have no problem with that.

dani
26th Apr 2008, 20:23
Please, don’t call me an angry German kid. I don’t have anything against black people or kids. But I would like to play someone like Anna Navarre or Gunter. I really like this woman. Yes, I do. She is a bad character, but there is something romantic about bad characters.

I like Fallout and Fallout 2 games very much, because of their freedom. If you will kill a kid in Fallout, the game will respond to you. You will get a bad reputation: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Reputation_(Fallout_2). I would like to see something like this in Deus Ex 3.

dani
26th Apr 2008, 20:34
The Childkiller reputation is bestowed upon your character for killing a child, even if it's an accident. However if one of your party members does the deed instead, you won't be penalized for it.

If you have killed 3 or more children in Fallout or 2 or more children in Fallout 2 yourself, bounty hunters will eventually find you in random encounters. Their equipment depends on your level, ranging from Leather Jackets and Hunting Rifles to Power Armor and Avenger Miniguns.

You have killed children, the youth of the wasteland. This is considered to be a really bad thing. You evil, evil person.

Sometimes, you might not even know that you're killing a kid, because they're under the guise of a normal-looking person, for example a teen still counts as a kid, an example of this is Myron, although in a general sense he's not a child, the game regards him as one.

auric
27th Apr 2008, 01:19
I didn't realise this little feature of Fallout, I know there's a lot of them I haven't explored yet.
:)

-Nomad-
27th Apr 2008, 01:35
I also agree with Dani. (Im sure none of us are actually child killers, etc.) The reason I played DX1 so many times was because I could take full advantage of so many different playing styles. Being good is fun, being bad is fun, and being both is human. In the end it will only increase the replay value (which is exactly why DX1 was out of this world incredible! IMHO). As for maturity, I think they could easily pull this off with M, but AO wouldn't dissapoint me. Oh and I really would prefer cursing...not over the top, but almost. I just know if I was living as a super nano-augmented agent in a DX-esque like world and was put in insane death defying situations I would be cursing an excessive amount ( Although I usually never curse, unless of course I am about to die and what not :D ).


However in the end the story should of course come first.

auric
27th Apr 2008, 01:44
I just know if I was living as a super nano-augmented agent in a DX-esque like world and was put in insane death defying situations I would be cursing an excessive amount ( Although I usually never curse, unless of course I am about to die and what not :D ).

I would find that out of character. Not everyone needs to curse to calm down or something.
Well that's for the protagonist, the antagonists are free to curse if they want.
Which was something I put in my "realism" list.
Have more combat talk based on each individual's background. A punk, family man/woman, Banker :D, etc.

Where we can hear them mumbling something about fear of death or eager to fight, depending on their health level too.
:)

-Nomad-
27th Apr 2008, 02:20
I would find that out of character. Not everyone needs to curse to calm down or something.
Well that's for the protagonist, the antagonists are free to curse if they want.
Which was something I put in my "realism" list.
Have more combat talk based on each individual's background. A punk, family man/woman, Banker :D, etc.

Where we can hear them mumbling something about fear of death or eager to fight, depending on their health level too.
:)

That is true not everyone would curse. Actually come to think of it voices from my own character during actual gameplay usually really annoy me (Crysis for example) because often times the voice just doesn't sit right with me. (JC's voice was actually ok. Hitman's Agent 47 has my favorite in game voice though, or game voice period.) This is starting to sound like a new thread subject.

Fen
27th Apr 2008, 06:49
I have no problem with the grunts swearing, or characters who you would expect to swear swearing (eg Jock), however the protagonist and antagonist shouldnt swear. These two are both elite soliders, they are not your average street punk.

auric
27th Apr 2008, 07:34
I have no problem with the grunts swearing, or characters who you would expect to swear swearing (eg Jock), however the protagonist and antagonist shouldnt swear. These two are both elite soliders, they are not your average street punk.

Not to mentioned, the main character is hardly human.
:)

Voltaire
27th Apr 2008, 07:34
Oh, I don't know about that no cussin rule for the protagonist. For one thing, I thought it was cool when JC was faced with Walt Simons' cryptic "mirror" talk, and he just came back with the one liner, calling WS "one ugly sonnova **** "

It kinda took me aback, what with JC being so humourless throughout the rest of the game... in moderation, cussin should be fine.

Fen
27th Apr 2008, 18:12
Oh, I don't know about that no cussin rule for the protagonist. For one thing, I thought it was cool when JC was faced with Walt Simons' cryptic "mirror" talk, and he just came back with the one liner, calling WS "one ugly sonnova **** "

It kinda took me aback, what with JC being so humourless throughout the rest of the game... in moderation, cussin should be fine.

lol, ok yeah that was pretty cool.
Just as long as my protagonist doesnt swear for the sake of swearing.

Tracer Tong
27th Apr 2008, 19:33
lol, ok yeah that was pretty cool.
Just as long as my protagonist doesnt swear for the sake of swearing.

Like GoW and that style of teen games. Too much gore and swearing IMHO.

auric
27th Apr 2008, 22:38
Gore & swearing is definitely something should be able to toggle on & off at the options menu.
:)

Asystole
28th Apr 2008, 10:16
DX3 should be violent, gory, profane... but in moderation. It should never feel gratuitous or overused. That way when it is used it's so much more effective. DX has always been gritty and mature. A game can be gory and violent and still feel childish if it's used without taste and moderation.

FelixP
1st May 2008, 02:11
Generally speaking, Deus Ex takes place in a 'dark' world- a world significantly more so than our own. In order to make the game world as immersive as possible, then, DX3 will have to acknowledge the social implications of such a world. Sex, drugs, extreme violence, and so on, should all be in the game, but not in a central role. These are supporting elements which help to fill in the social and cultural context of the game's environment, and reveling in them does nothing but detract from the actual gameplay.

Illustration: if I go into a seedy low-rent hourly motel, I would expect that some (or all!) of the clients would be prostitutes. If all of the hotel guests were lovely 2.5 child middle class families, that would certainly put big dent in the feel of the game. However, there is no need to encourage the player to sleep with and then violently murder said prostitutes a la GTA3.

djinni33
1st May 2008, 09:04
It has to be violent. Keep it realistic: drugs, sex, and a lot of blood (executions). Killing children was a very nice thing in the original Deus Ex. Killing black people and handicapped would be nice in the new game. BUT IT HAS TO BE THE PLAEYRS CHOISE. THE PLAYERS FREEDOM TO DO OR NOT TO DO THINGS. REMEMBER, SOME PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE A BAD CHARACTER.

Come to think of it, they should also implement an option to randomly rape people. Or corpses. Or random items. And maybe cannibalism. Definitely drugs.

Nah don't worry, I see what you mean. Offering the player such choices (and eventually consequences) broadens the moral dimension and clearly improves game experience.

Deadelus
1st May 2008, 20:28
I started playing Deus Ex when I was just 14.. I understood most of it, and it didn't affect me too much, as far as I'm concerned. But I also agree, there should be some things a 'parent' can limit. Language, noises at the 'Tons residents doors.. Maybe even the AI barks. But then again, I wouldn't want my kids playing this... even though I did. :nut:

B0b_P@ge
4th May 2008, 18:55
Generally speaking, Deus Ex takes place in a 'dark' world- a world significantly more so than our own. In order to make the game world as immersive as possible, then, DX3 will have to acknowledge the social implications of such a world. Sex, drugs, extreme violence, and so on, should all be in the game, but not in a central role. These are supporting elements which help to fill in the social and cultural context of the game's environment, and reveling in them does nothing but detract from the actual gameplay.


Bullseye!
You absolutely hit the final nail on coffin here. This basically encompasses everything there is to say about the issue - in my honest opinion.

Luagar2
4th May 2008, 20:28
Generally speaking, Deus Ex takes place in a 'dark' world- a world significantly more so than our own. In order to make the game world as immersive as possible, then, DX3 will have to acknowledge the social implications of such a world. Sex, drugs, extreme violence, and so on, should all be in the game, but not in a central role. These are supporting elements which help to fill in the social and cultural context of the game's environment, and reveling in them does nothing but detract from the actual gameplay.

I'd echo these thoughts. Deus Ex was mature and it felt like a living, breathing world due to the more graphic nature of it; however since that graphic nature wasn't the central theme, it was fine. That was all lost on me in IW...

Old_Snake
30th Jul 2008, 11:00
I always liked the fact that Deus Ex didn't treat you like a dumb 'frat boy'. The themes were intelligent and deep whilst being accessible enough for someone to work out without having to reading a book. Also things like globalisation and consolidation of power were very interesting. The use of of Rebecca (i think she is called becca, the Ton owners daughter) as someone who as been embroiled in prostitution and other activities.

I hope there could be more risks taken this time. I loved the adult content and hope it continues. I'm sick of "omg the world will end because of new alien race, so go save the universe" or "they killed (add family member) now kill them all" type of storylines as they go for epic without anything risky.

Well maybe it is kinda wishful thinking as this is a fledgling project for this development team, so i guess they are on a short leash with that type of stuff.

Anyway hope other people can contribute ideas on what could make the game great for an adult gamer.

GruntOwner
30th Jul 2008, 11:47
The fact that people brought up the moral issues of killing. All those pesky games running around with Timmy TestosteroneTits butchering everyone and making a laugh of it gets really dull after a while, whereas in DX even the heroic, supportive general objects to wantom slaughter, whereas anything else would have him waving a banner screaming bloody murder. It was mature for it's thoughts, not because people dropped an Fbomb when they weren't mutilating cats. I loved the datapad in the statue of liberty with a message written to a friend. I think it spoke about a wedding or honeymoon, and you kinda went "... S***" It was really sobering. It was also great that JC knew how to argue, better than most real poeple nowadays. The Hong Kong conversation with the ausie bartender about dictatorship was awesome.

Blade_hunter
30th Jul 2008, 11:55
This is a post about this if the moderators can move this thread to the other

->maturity (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=76412&highlight=mature)

DXeXodus
30th Jul 2008, 12:04
This is a post about this if the moderators can move this thread to the other

Done :thumbsup:

Red
30th Jul 2008, 12:45
The use of of Rebecca (i think she is called becca, the Ton owners daughter)

Sandra.

Kevyne-Shandris
30th Jul 2008, 12:56
Let's keep the personal physical discrimination to a minimum within these panels. Next you'll be suggesting that JC visits a synagogue...

Open ended game play will even allow that.

There will be good players and bad players, like in any game. In SH4 they even allow you to shoot those who abandoned ships on life rafts (clearly against the Geneva convention), but there's nothing stopping it. My mom's father's job during WWII was to unload the civilian dead off of passenger ferries Americans strifed with .50 cal machineguns. I go to their forum and see them use "Jap" all the time, and despite being Japanese-American, it's very uncomfortable to read such racist remarks. But that's life.

I also love cats, but in DX folks can shoot them. But that's like real life, jerks can be complete and utter **** that I hope-rot-in-hell for killing them.

gh0s7
30th Jul 2008, 14:28
Speaking of Fallout, the upcoming Fallout 3 can't be sold in Australia. IIRC, anybody can order it abroad for personal uses, but there will be no store authorized to sell the game, because, basically, the player can use drugs called "chems" during the game. Their top rating allowed is "M+15".

GameSpot (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6193496.html)

AaronJ
30th Jul 2008, 16:01
Mature to DX1's level. With badass lines here and there, and then Endgame 4.

iWait
30th Jul 2008, 18:25
What I would like to see in DX3 is more prostitutes and zyme addicts, and the ability to try and rehabilitate them. For instance you see a prostitute, go to a bar or some other place, and ask the owner if he would hire the prostitute.

HouseOfPain
30th Jul 2008, 20:56
Open ended game play will even allow that.

There will be good players and bad players, like in any game. In SH4 they even allow you to shoot those who abandoned ships on life rafts (clearly against the Geneva convention), but there's nothing stopping it. My mom's father's job during WWII was to unload the civilian dead off of passenger ferries Americans strifed with .50 cal machineguns. I go to their forum and see them use "Jap" all the time, and despite being Japanese-American, it's very uncomfortable to read such racist remarks. But that's life.

I also love cats, but in DX folks can shoot them. But that's like real life, jerks can be complete and utter **** that I hope-rot-in-hell for killing them.

I stepped on the cats, I never shot them D:

Kevyne-Shandris
30th Jul 2008, 22:08
I stepped on the cats, I never shot them D:

Hope the next cat treats those very shoes as a litterbox. :D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Jul 2008, 07:15
DX3 should be similar to to DX1 for maturity. Subtle lines and quips are much more meaningful, especially when they are set at poignant points within the game. I definitely don't want to see it everywhere or too often.

As for suggestions of more prostitutes, drugs, sex etc. I wouldn't want too much of that either and I would only want it if it is relevant to the part of the story you find yourself in. As for having the choice of playing the good or bad guy/willingness to kill/show prejudice etc. yes, that is hopefully to be expected in DX3.

I certainly don't wish to see any side plots/mini destractions that really don't relate to the actual storyline or mission in hand. I want the devs to give us complete immersion into a profound plot, therefore I wouldn't want ANY space wasted on unnecessary trivialities. :)

urban_queen41
4th Aug 2008, 07:15
It needs to be mature, or it would lose most of what made the original DX great. Can you imagine if the game had been dumbed down enough for a 10-year-old to play and understand it? (Actually....wait, come to think of it, I was probabaly only about 10-11 when I first played that game. >_>)

iWait
4th Aug 2008, 10:18
I was thinking along the lines of Sandra Renton regarding the prostitutes. You get to uncover their little prostitute ring, and even save Sandra from JoJo (?).

Castrol GTX
4th Aug 2008, 16:17
This game should be pulled straight out of a James Ellroy novel, thrown xx years into the future, and handed a healthy dose of Zyme and Gray Death.

jcp28
4th Aug 2008, 17:22
Mature enough so I don't feel as if though the grim reality of the world is being masked. This isn't a kids' game, and there is no need to skimp on the prostitution if the main character happens to come across.

But like I believe I've said before, gratuitous content such as lots of blood and gore and tons of half-naked strippers would be distracting and not all that relevant to what the main storyline is.

Spiffmeister
5th Aug 2008, 04:51
The game should feel mature IMO. Sort of like the original ;)

The violence levels in the original only featured gibs when something was hit by an explosive (or if you laid into it enough) and blood was only moderatly displayed. Language in the original was non-existant (if i remember correctly).

Other then that, the story shoved politics down your throat, in a good way, which gave the game a mature (intellectually) feel to it.

Having said all that, I want interactivity, if I don't like someone, I wan't to be able to tell them to stick it.

Fen
5th Aug 2008, 06:45
I want the world to be gritty and mature and to contain things like prostitution. However please dont have any nudity in it. All that does it makes people think your weird if they see you playing it and theres a topless animated character on your screen.

Castrol GTX
7th Aug 2008, 17:24
Funny, you're about the sixth person to mention prostitution. Why is everyone so interesting in having that? :scratch: Maybe there are a few GTA veterans in here. :whistle:

Clucky
7th Aug 2008, 17:28
Funny, you're about the sixth person to mention prostitution. Why is everyone so interesting in having that? :scratch: Maybe there are a few GTA veterans in here. :whistle:

I don't think they mean having... "interactive" prostitution. ;)

They simply want hookers to wander the streets, the dodgy areas of a city, and insert that gritty atmosphere that was present in the original. I think people just want the franchise to return to its roots. :)

jordan_a
7th Aug 2008, 17:33
Strip clubs are a must, it has to reflect reality, especially in a cyberpunk. just like in...
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5835/omikron1lyj4.jpg

minus0ne
7th Aug 2008, 22:46
Funny, you're about the sixth person to mention prostitution. Why is everyone so interesting in having that? :scratch: Maybe there are a few GTA veterans in here. :whistle:
GTA doesn't enter into it. DX has to remain realistic and gritty, and nothing says dystopian cityscape like a prostitute telling you about her pimp being executed by riot police for wearing subversive clothing and listening to illegal radio pod/broadcasts :D

DX was a mature game with mature themes, IW was "My First Console Game" (the coffee wars quest probably being the most infantile substory ever to grace a videogame). I'll take the former, thank you very much.

I'm secretly hoping for different versions. For example one version for the US market (which aims to avoid getting an AO or even M rating, the deathblow to most games) and one for the rest of the world where such ratings don't matter. I can understand EM wanting to make money (and therefore avoid the AO/M rating in the US version), but I don't want them to compromise their game in any way.

So I say just go all-out, no holds barred, and then near completion of the game do a separate "censored" version which narrowly escapes the ratings and release that for the US market, and the original for the rest of the world.

serene_chaos
8th Aug 2008, 10:50
the US aren't the only ones with ludicrous censorship, here in Australia Fallout 3's not being released, due to the drug use. apparently it "bring real world drugs in line with science fiction", or something, which is apparently bad.

but yeah, DX3 has to be real and gritty, content-wise. i would like to see some harsher language than there was in the first game, but not gratuitous. perhaps only spoken by the whores and street thugs (who WILL try to mug you if you get too close and ARE genuinely intimidating when you start out)

René
8th Aug 2008, 12:29
nothing says dystopian cityscape like a prostitute telling you about her pimp being executed by riot police for wearing subversive clothing

Best. Quote. Ever. That's back of the box material!

nkepke
8th Aug 2008, 19:19
First of all, hi everyone... first post, but not last!

ontopic: I would definetly love to have more of a grim plot like in the first game. The rawer the better, the more you get emotionally involved and the level of realism rises to.

About the rating, of course no game-company want end up with +18 or the like. Good thing about Deus Ex though is that the "mature"-content which it was so much loved for weren't nessesarly mature content that gives adults-only ratings.

Some level of realism regarding gore/blood is always welcome since it helps make the world more believable and therefore enhancing the experience. But if we were to think both as gamers, and designers/publishers I'd say keep highly complex and mature plot/story and you can dub down the gore parts substantially. Regarding prostitution sexual material I'm not familiar to at which extent this affects the rating? I must agree though that it's a great way of painting a gray and dystopian image... like we all want it to be.




A Bien tôt!

/NKE

jcp28
8th Aug 2008, 20:43
the US aren't the only ones with ludicrous censorship, here in Australia Fallout 3's not being released, due to the drug use. apparently it "bring real world drugs in line with science fiction", or something, which is apparently bad.


Also, most European countries tend to limit the depiction of violent acts in their games. I know Germany doesn't look too fondly on violence, and I don't really think the UK does either.

So if DX was too bloody, it could be censored.

Romeo
8th Aug 2008, 21:37
If memory serves, Fallout edited the Australian version and re-submitted it to the censors, and it passed after. I don't think the game should even bother with tuning the game down for younger players. Frankly, they're not the demographic that would be overly-interested in the game.

minus0ne
8th Aug 2008, 22:27
the US aren't the only ones with ludicrous censorship, here in Australia Fallout 3's not being released, due to the drug use. apparently it "bring real world drugs in line with science fiction", or something, which is apparently bad.
Yeah I know, it's unfortunate. However giving these territories a censored version would at least make them money there, and worst comes to worst someone (possibly at EM) could make a patch that "uncensors" all the things back to 'normal'. This way parents and anti-game lobbies can't complain about the product out-of-the-box, and people in the US and Australia and Germany can still enjoy a hopefully great game.

but yeah, DX3 has to be real and gritty, content-wise. i would like to see some harsher language than there was in the first game, but not gratuitous. perhaps only spoken by the whores and street thugs (who WILL try to mug you if you get too close and ARE genuinely intimidating when you start out)
Agreed. I like how this was done in The Longest Journey (and Dreamfall iirc) - there was "harsh" language, but it never once felt out-of-place or gratuitous.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/august07/tlj2.jpg

In fact, I've begun to notice how very unnatural it feels when it's left out of dialogue in games :p


Best. Quote. Ever. That's back of the box material!
:o :cool:

Castrol GTX
9th Aug 2008, 02:23
MinusOne that quote in the picture definitely looks like gratuitous swearing. It looks like something out of that show Deadwood (which I don't watch).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mgSVaQ8Ud4

It seems like every clip I see about that show is some stupid mess of ****, cocksucker, ****head, *******, etc.


I wonder if any of you have played that old game Vampire: Masquerade bloodlines. That's got a decently dark setting to it, even if its a bit rough around the edges.

minus0ne
9th Aug 2008, 02:47
MinusOne that quote in the picture definitely looks like gratuitous swearing. It looks like something out of that show Deadwood (which I don't watch).
Well I grabbed the first TLJ screenshot with swearing I could find on Google images ;) But I can guarantee you it's not gratuitous, even though it might seem that way put out of context like that. The character in question is the only one who swears like that though (which is part of his personality), and when the protagonist swears it's with good fu****ing reason :p

I don't know about Deadwood, I haven't gotten past the first few episodes, which was a neverending stream of machismo bull****. Then again it's only logical that all the good things about Westerns are lost when they try to turn it into a TV series.

I wonder if any of you have played that old game Vampire: Masquerade bloodlines. That's got a decently dark setting to it, even if its a bit rough around the edges.
VtmB handled it pretty nicely as well. I must say that game has aged quite gracefully, and even though you're right when you say it's old it's still one of the best looking games with totally replay-proof gameplay.

Off-topic, those rough edges are fixed nicely with the unofficial patches (both Wesp's and Tessera's).

Lo Bruto
11th Aug 2008, 00:17
Mature.

But please, no sex minigames.
We don't want teens playing just to simulate how it would be to have sex with mech augmented girls.

Jerion
11th Aug 2008, 00:28
Mature.

But please, no sex minigames.
We don't want teens playing just to simulate how it would be to have sex with mech augmented girls.
That's right. We don't want this game made for 13yr-olds.

Jimmy Rabbitte
11th Aug 2008, 00:48
Mature.

But please, no sex minigames.
We don't want teens playing just to simulate how it would be to have sex with mech augmented girls.

That actually sounds really awesome. Not practical, but awesome. Maybe in the future when we start taking away government's control over our lives and smut will reign supreme. Unfortunately by then, sex with mech augmented chicks will seem prude compared to the **** we can come up with by then. Come to think of it, there's probably a whole bookshelf full of cyberpunk pornos in some Japanese video store today.

Tstorm
5th Sep 2008, 00:21
These days 6 year olds play 18+ games. It doesnt matter i think it should be 18 + because of all the ass kickery it should be packing.

Romeo
5th Sep 2008, 03:19
Yes, I know my eight-year-old brother and I frequently play Gears of War, Halo and The Darkness, and he seems fine. For now...

Zegano
9th Sep 2008, 02:04
It doesn't exactly seem mature to include drugs and prostitution in a game just for the hell of it. I mean, Deus Ex is a dark game but it didn't go overboard. When you meet Sandra you find her being abused by her pimp, and you save her by scaring him off (or beating the crap out of him, or wussing out and just paying him). She was actually a human with problems who had a small side story. The drugs and hookers come into it because of the horrible economic conditions of Deus Ex, and maybe to make a statement if the developers are that way inclined. That makes it mature, in my own opinion.

payne
11th Feb 2009, 22:58
definitely X rated:)

WhatsHisFace
11th Feb 2009, 23:13
That's right. We don't want this game made for 13yr-olds.

Then why is there recharging health?

spm1138
12th Feb 2009, 01:16
Well... there's mature in the Beavis & Butthead / Duke Nukem 3D sense - stuff that I'd have thought was awesome when I was 14 and then there's mature in the sense of something being intended for an adult audience.

I consider gratuitous T&A, gore, drug references etc. etc. to be more in the former camp tbh.

I don't think "prostitution, drugs, gibs" are especially strong design or story ideas on their own. I don't suddenly feel like a gritty cyberpunk badass because the game has boobs in. In fact depending on how gauchely it's presented that stuff is more likely to set me wondering exactly how theoretical those concepts were for the guys making the game.

I'd like the game to be mature in the sense that the people making it realise that the Nintendo generation kind of stuck with gaming so they're now making games for grown ups but that doesn't automatically require nudity / swears / innards.

Nothing against that stuff necessarily but it's not a selling point on it's own.

Mature to me has more to do with the story, the characters, the ideas, the quality of writing.

It's interesting you bring up Deadwood because I actually thought that was some pretty good TV with some pretty well written characters. The sex and violence and baroquely foul language kind of fit in with everything else and made it convincing and I only partly liked Ian Macshane's character because he made me chuckle whenever he came out with some new obscenity.

Most games OTOH have writing that barely reaches the level of a Steven Seagal movie so anything looks gratuitous in that context.

I'd like to see "mature" games (2nd definition) just because I think it's something the games industry hasn't really attempted in a big way.

FrankCSIS
12th Feb 2009, 01:25
There is a rather simple balance to this, which for some reason unknown to me, is most often than not ignored or simply absent in almost all works of fiction, and it goes as follows:

The movie/book/game should always be consequential to the universe it takes place in and play within the limits of what it tries to be and who it caters to.

WhatsHisFace
12th Feb 2009, 02:45
I agree with Carlos. When someone is shot, they should bleed. Not a puff of red mist, and not fifteen gallons of chunky paint, but a noticeable yet respectful amount of blood.

Realism can be presented in a non offensive way. Gore doesn't need to be gloried or emphasized, but it shouldn't be unrealistically removed either.

I'd say just handle it the way Rid**** did. That game remains the best representation of physical damage.

hem dazon 90
16th Feb 2009, 06:39
GTA doesn't enter into it. DX has to remain realistic and gritty, and nothing says dystopian cityscape like a prostitute telling you about her pimp being executed by riot police for wearing subversive clothing and listening to illegal radio pod/broadcasts :D

DX was a mature game with mature themes, IW was "My First Console Game" (the coffee wars quest probably being the most infantile substory ever to grace a videogame). I'll take the former, thank you very much.

I'm secretly hoping for different versions. For example one version for the US market (which aims to avoid getting an AO or even M rating, the deathblow to most games) and one for the rest of the world where such ratings don't matter. I can understand EM wanting to make money (and therefore avoid the AO/M rating in the US version), but I don't want them to compromise their game in any way.

So I say just go all-out, no holds barred, and then near completion of the game do a separate "censored" version which narrowly escapes the ratings and release that for the US market, and the original for the rest of the world.

that reminds me what were the coffee wars I keep hearing of them

spm1138
17th Feb 2009, 02:26
It's a sub plot involving two coffee shops apparently at war but not really. You find out they're both the same organisation which mirrors the main plot of the game and the organisations in it.

Basically at the time IW came out globalisation was a big hot button issue.

One of the companies being singled out as a symbol of the negative consequences globalisation was Starbucks.

Naomi Klein singles them out for criticism in No Logo for example. Notice that the WTO also feature big in the plot of the game.

It wasn't that ridiculous a plot idea right after the WTO protests in Seattle in 99. I think they were one of the companies getting their windows kicked in.

FrankCSIS
17th Feb 2009, 03:22
I haven't read or heard of her book in years, and it's the second time today I hear of No Logo!

At the time everyone was also breaking my balls about the so-called global village. Moral of the story is, when trying to predict the future, do like the Brits. Be wary of trends and bet on continuity.

itsalladream
17th Feb 2009, 03:41
I agree with Carlos. When someone is shot, they should bleed. Not a puff of red mist, and not fifteen gallons of chunky paint, but a noticeable yet respectful amount of blood.

Realism can be presented in a non offensive way. Gore doesn't need to be gloried or emphasized, but it shouldn't be unrealistically removed either.

I'd say just handle it the way Rid**** did. That game remains the best representation of physical damage.

Hey, watch your langauge, you pervert.:lol: :lmao: