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LaredoHK
29th Mar 2008, 02:45
nt

nt

Romeo
29th Mar 2008, 03:01
What the hell did you just attempt to say?

SemiAnonymous
29th Mar 2008, 05:31
Someone failed the Poll, I think. But I'm all in favor of no more Universal Ammo.

IceBallz
29th Mar 2008, 06:16
No universal ammo. Ammo types are welcome.

Romeo
29th Mar 2008, 07:11
I'm gonna get yelled at... But I kinda liked the universal ammo. Yeah, thrashing around with the rocket launcher could cause immense damage, but could leave you high and dry for ammo. It added a subtle layer of tact into weapon choice.

jordan_a
29th Mar 2008, 08:00
Weapons, ammo (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75221) :scratch:

Epok__
29th Mar 2008, 09:21
I don't want universal ammo at all.
Can you update your poll, I really would like to see what proportion of people don't like it too.

IceBallz
29th Mar 2008, 09:22
I really hope there will be FMJ, AP and SP ammo to all type of weapons.

minus0ne
29th Mar 2008, 09:37
Who cares about universal ammo? It wasn't a great find by the IW devs, but it's hardly the greatest gamebreaker in IW (in fact it's really easy not to be bothered by it).

I feel people on all DX forums but perhaps especially this one spend a disproportionate amount of time debating the fallacies and merits of universal ammo. I don't know if people view it as the prime example of IW's 'console identitiy' or whatever. Personally I don't.

I think IW had many flaws compared to DX, but universal ammo is probably the least noteworthy one. The tiny levels/hubs (exacerbated by the very confined and claustrophobic level design) really hurt both gameplay and atmosphere. The lack of a riveting story (perhaps most hurt by bad pacing and bad execution) wasn't too compelling either. In DX only the ending felt rushed, but in IW the entire game was screaming "early alpha". IW also lacked any stealth gameplay (utterly poor AI, no reward/pay-off for not killing etc.) save for some airco ducts you could crawl through. No character development (in both the PC and NPCs) etc. I could probably go on for a good while till I reach insignificant flaws like universal ammro, but won't.

IceBallz
29th Mar 2008, 10:19
I want to have full metal jackets (FMJ), armor peircing (AP) and soft points (SP) to rifles/pistols/revolvers. Shotguns should only have ammo like shots and slugs. Sniper rifles should have normal ammo as FMJ, AP, SP and a special ammo type for long distant shots. Rocket launchers and -rifles should have anti personal (AP), anti vehicle (AV), [ir-guided] anti air (AA) and electro magnetic pulse (EMP). Ammo to handgrenades and to grenadelaunchers should only be anti personal (AP) and electro magnetic pulse (EMP). So explosions from a grenadelauncher with AP-ammo should wipe out a whole group of enemies. If it hits close enuff of the group. But if you hit with a rocket and with AV-ammo loaded, instead of AP-ammo loaded. The anti vehicle (AV) ammo wont make the same harm to the group, if you would been shooting a anti personal (AP) against them. Becurse the anti vehicle (AV) ammo is more peircing then filled with cluster, like the anti personal (AP) ammo are. That's the difference with different ammo. No universal ammo, keep it realistic and not arcadish.

Kneo24
29th Mar 2008, 14:49
Despite what you clowns think, if implemented properly, universal ammo isn't a bad idea. If there's going to be five variants of the pistol, I'd like to see universal ammo for the pistol. Same goes for SMGS, AR's, sniper weapons, etc.

IceBallz
29th Mar 2008, 15:05
It sure is a bad idea. Not even the bricks in Arkanoid was all of same resistance. Some of the bricks tok like three hits before those been eliminated. Like here, we should have every kind of ammo that reality gives us. This is not Halo-series, there the gun dicides what's in the barrel. So stop to trying to get DX3 to a rubbish console game !!!

Xcom
29th Mar 2008, 15:57
I added a poll. Vote away. :p

Kneo24
29th Mar 2008, 19:55
It sure is a bad idea. Not even the bricks in Arkanoid was all of same resistance. Some of the bricks tok like three hits before those been eliminated. Like here, we should have every kind of ammo that reality gives us. This is not Halo-series, there the gun dicides what's in the barrel. So stop to trying to get DX3 to a rubbish console game !!!

Look, you can't even validate why you think it's terrible, even if given a decent idea where it's not 100% universal. "OMG IT"S MORE LIKE A STUPID coNSOLE!!!111oneoneonedurhfaceplant!" isn't a valid reason. Simplicity isn't bad if done properly.

It sucked in IW because it didn't force you to go adventuring for more ammo, which is what you did in the first Deus Ex. Though part of the problem with IW wasn't so much the universal ammo at all, but the amount of it sitting around. Hell, those black market biomod canisters were very plentiful.

Another reason it sucked in IW was because it didn't appeal to our senses of disbelief suspension. There was ammo that worked for everything, even something as primitive as a pistol that shot normal bullets. But it also used the same ammo for something explosive like a rocket? Granted it used more ammo, it didn't scale nicely. It was also used with energy weapons! We had ammo that could shoot normal bullets, or energy, but people were still carrying around something as archaic as a pistol. Go figure.

That's what sucked about it.

In the first Deus Ex, you sometimes felt limited in what you could do because of the variety of ammo and weapons depending on your situation. Granted, if you went around stun prodding everyone, this was a non-issue, but how many of the average players actually wanted to stun prod everyone?

I honestly don't think that no universal ammo, or a lot of different types of ammo are good solutions by themselves. Combining the two, however, doesn't at any point make you feel limited because you have a lack of ammo. It still adds a great amount of variety. It also enhances the flow of gameplay. And, if done correctly, can still force you to explore.

If you somehow feel that it just simply "dumbs it down to being a console gaiz", well, I'll just let your foolish statements speak for themselves.

Gary_Savage
29th Mar 2008, 22:14
Although I have never played DX:IW, I still voted totally against universal ammo, because I think that universal ammo will totally kill the suspension of disbelief, for me. Since I work with nanotechnology, I do not see the sense in manufacturing thousands of nanobots (MEMs and NEMs, as we call them) to create a specific round within the confines of a gun, since it would be more economical to manufacture different ammo for different guns. Even if the manufacturing bots were housed in the gun, rather than in the ammo, it would take too long to make a round within the gun, and it would still make more business sense to have a dedicated round (ammo) manufacturing plant, so it can take advantage of the economies of scale, and thus leave the guns to be smaller, and simpler.

Further, AFAIK, most nano related research being done these days has more to do with composites, films and other stationary structures, like detectors, emitters, conductors, strength enhancers, etc., with nanobots forming only a small segment of the research activity. Since I want DX3 to act as a machine that recruits future scientists and engineers (as DX1 recruited me) I want the story to have elements that are more plausible, like a coat button that alerts the agent of a whole host of poisonous gases (like chlorine gas) some distance away, or the presence of hidden electronics (say, hidden sensors, like bugs in an office building), or a nearby electric arc. Sure, nanobots would be cool, as a recruiting tool, but only in a plausible situation. I don't mind something a little wild and crazy, like the multitool from DX1, as long as that tool/concept/gadget is not too out of touch with reality (and I still think that the original multitool had sound physical underpinnings).

I really do not want my DX3 experience ruined by my work in a field that DX1 got me into. That is the minimum that I want from DX3, if not an experience as great as the one that I had with DX1.

Blade_hunter
30th Mar 2008, 00:22
I prefer the multiple ammo like DX 1
If the universal ammo is added i think it can be optionnal
Anyway I choose the multiple ammo first, if the devs think univeral ammo is good , they add this as an option, else they don't add this ....

Draco1979
30th Mar 2008, 00:34
I would have to say universal ammo is not a bad thing but it has to make sense. Like stated before all pistols have the same ammo riffles have the same ammo energy weapon has the same ammo.......etc etc. I know some people are die hard no universal ammo and some are for it. Does not matter where you place yourself because that is your opinion and you have the right to have one.

m72
30th Mar 2008, 06:03
Who wants one universal ammo, i'd like 3 different ammo for a gun

dimaf1985
30th Mar 2008, 06:14
i dont know why theres even any discussion about this:mad2:

v.dog
30th Mar 2008, 07:30
It's because different people have different opinions as to what they think is best.

I liked the SS2 approach to ammo with three types for each weapon; normal, anti-personal, and armour-piercing. If you wanted to simplify it, you could have it so pistols, assault rifles, SMGs and sniper rifles all fire the same three types, albeit at different rates, ranges, levels of accuracy, and damage. Shotguns, LAWs, and the like would obviously need their own classes of ammo.

Speaking of shotguns, wouldn't you love to have the AA12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c) (Youtube) in the game?

jordan_a
30th Mar 2008, 10:28
i dont know why theres even any discussion about this:mad2:And why nobody cares about the main Weapons, ammo (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75221) thread.

IceBallz
30th Mar 2008, 10:29
It's because different people have different opinions as to what they think is best.

I liked the SS2 approach to ammo with three types for each weapon; normal, anti-personal, and armour-piercing. If you wanted to simplify it, you could have it so pistols, assault rifles, SMGs and sniper rifles all fire the same three types, albeit at different rates, ranges, levels of accuracy, and damage. Shotguns, LAWs, and the like would obviously need their own classes of ammo.

Speaking of shotguns, wouldn't you love to have the AA12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c) (Youtube) in the game?

Sure thing to get into game. Would be heavy equipment, but way more deadlier then the odinary old shotguns. :) I could even throw all my pistols/revolvers away, all ammo to them and go only for simply this shotgun magazines and this little friend in my inventory. Not everytime, but i would test it out.

- SAY HI TO MY LITTLE FRIEND !!! [Gets a whole new meaning]

Blade_hunter
30th Mar 2008, 10:49
I don't want the same shotgun but a shotgun acts as the AA 12, the jackhammer, the CAWS, the SPAS 15 or the USAS 12 are welcome like the assault shotgun in DX 1
I say that because it' to keep the DX universe ...

But the pistols and assault rifles never use the same ammo;
pistols an SMG's have the same ammo in most cases, sniper rifles and assault rifles too, but we can encouter some ammo can be used only with one gun type

The most interesting thing in the video is the grenade shell :) because it's make all sense for multiple ammo

Kneo24
30th Mar 2008, 10:58
And why nobody cares about the main Weapons, ammo (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75221) thread.

Because there's a poll. When voting is made very easy, people generally tend to do it.

Larington
30th Mar 2008, 11:12
Personally I prefer to avoid the concept of universal ammo because it provides a bit more control over ammo consumption, for instance, if I need to use the rocket launcher to take out a tank/mech, that shouldn't leave me short on handgun or rifle ammo.

Meanwhile, theres always the interest value of special kinds of ammunition (Expensive Heat seeking bullets anyone?). And I tend to regard ammunition management as one of the positive aspects of DX1, that if I used up too much of one ammo, I could always switch to a different weapon for a time.

Caradoc
31st Mar 2008, 22:14
No

There are bad ideas and there are ideas like universal ammo. Its really stunning how that idea made to final build and through playtesting. The fact that I can't use my pistol because rocket launcher ate the last bit of my ammo is not only silly and frustrating, but its not even plausible.

Romeo
2nd Apr 2008, 06:53
Then you had melee. Or enough common sense not to go psycho with the Rocket Launcher. =)

Apollonius
15th May 2008, 05:57
I'd like to start by saying i dislike universal ammo very, very much.

Just an idea though, if DX3 is set in a time period after IW, one way of re-introducing conventional ammo back into the game could be that it's available on the black market or preferred over universal ammo because it could avoid weapons being 'locked up' or disarmed like in parts of IW such as some of the pubs, etc.

If it came down to it however, I’d much prefer to be faced with a massive plot hole in regards to the ammo situation and have conventional and multiple types of ammo as opposed to just being stuck with universal ammo.

CoryInJapan
22nd May 2008, 14:13
I hated it in IW

Kneo24
24th May 2008, 16:58
Personally I prefer to avoid the concept of universal ammo because it provides a bit more control over ammo consumption, for instance, if I need to use the rocket launcher to take out a tank/mech, that shouldn't leave me short on handgun or rifle ammo.

Meanwhile, theres always the interest value of special kinds of ammunition (Expensive Heat seeking bullets anyone?). And I tend to regard ammunition management as one of the positive aspects of DX1, that if I used up too much of one ammo, I could always switch to a different weapon for a time.

But that's not exactly forcing you to better manage your munitions. As long as you can manage your inventory space, you had plenty of weapons that used different types of munitions.

Universal ammo can at the very least force you to conserve what you have and play differently than what you would have initially tried to do.

Granted in IW ammo was everywhere. If you actually ran out at any point, you probably had very poor aim.

Anxoius FAN
31st May 2008, 18:01
Universal Ammo was #1 in what killed DX2 for me, i began to think, with universal ammo could i then fire any type of bullets out of the biggest gun. a really REALLY dumb Idea, but so is universal ammo. (ps i once shot a rocket out of my pistol)

Blade_hunter
31st May 2008, 21:28
I agree even if I think that isn't the only thing. I loved the first game by the way was taken on this FPS. the second game has reduced most of gameplay parts of DX. The uni ammo was one of them.
Some weapons can use the same ammo like the standard pistol and the stealth pistol from the first game; or the Sawed off shotgun and the assault shotgun. These two groups of weapons use the same ammo, but not all weapons have the same ammo. It's illogical and reduces the possibilities.
In DX 1
the pistols use 10 mm ammo
the shotguns use a 12 gauge buckshot shells and a 12 gauge sabot shells

this is logical and these ammos gives strategies, the uni ammo also drops the weapons upgrades from DX 1 (Add a laser sight and a scope into a pistol isn't possible in DX 2)

badkarma29
2nd Jun 2008, 22:59
Despite what you clowns think, if implemented properly, universal ammo isn't a bad idea. If there's going to be five variants of the pistol, I'd like to see universal ammo for the pistol. Same goes for SMGS, AR's, sniper weapons, etc.

You're absolutely right. Modern pistols and SMGs are 9mm or 45ACP usually, whatever make or model they are. Using the same type of ammo for the same class of weapon would allow a wide range of weapon styles without having to haul around 50 different ammo types.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2008, 17:00
Uni ammo and the fact to have some cartridges in common is completely different.
This is not an implementation of the uni ammo because on the first game, the pistols models and the shotguns models uses the same ammo.
10 mm for pistols and 12 gauge for shotguns.
I think most guy's don't differentiate UNI AMMO, and the fact some guns can uses the same cartridges.
the old quake have a system close to this; doom too; unreal; turok; Blood 2, serious sam and many games.
Duke nukem 3d is one of rare game with one ammo for one weapon only.
Uni ammo is used in games like TRON 2.0, DX 2, Wolfenstein 3D.
The first game as I know can use dozens of ammo for one weapon can be thief or system shock.

Voltaire
3rd Jun 2008, 17:42
But that's not exactly forcing you to better manage your munitions. As long as you can manage your inventory space, you had plenty of weapons that used different types of munitions.

Universal ammo can at the very least force you to conserve what you have and play differently than what you would have initially tried to do.

Granted in IW ammo was everywhere. If you actually ran out at any point, you probably had very poor aim.

Ammo management should not just mean: "Shoot less"

It definitely shouldn't mean: "Use less rockets, or else you will be pretty much totally unarmed, loser"

You're coming from all over the place here. As you say, universal ammo forces a player to adopt a certain playing style... something totally against the entire mindset of the best- oh, um, first game.

What's more, you can't say "let's have universal ammo for pistols". That doesn't make sense. At all. Universal means pertaining to all, the whole, the lot, the entirety, tout les choses.

FrankCSIS
3rd Jun 2008, 18:44
Ammo management definitely goes hand in hand with different types of ammos. It forces you to use the best weapon/ammo in the current situation and project what you might need in the future vs the possible availability.

I know this isn't directly ammo related but in a part of Area 51 I completely ran out of grenades and still had one mech to destroy, and couldn't find the way to deactivate it. It was poor management on my part because I expected to find more explosives. It forced me however to get creative, which is something I really liked about DX 1. I ended up loading exploding barrels on a shopping cart/dolly, rolling it under the mech and blowing it up.

With universal ammo I would've just used the rocket launcher and move on.