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View Full Version : MISC. Nosgoth's Metagame: Human vs Vampire Skill Cap



jestdoit
18th Dec 2013, 10:48
The skill cap for vampires seems much lower than the skill cap for humans. At low levels, vampires tear through humans when they can't aim or work together. At higher levels, humans are almost untouchable when you have players who can aim, work together, and pull their own weight. I've played a couple matches where it was me, ZP, and Talespin vs other high-level players - as human, we'd lock down the game 40-3. After swapping over to vampires, the same was done to us.



Here's a few observations I've had with current "high level" play:

-Humans have ranged hitscan/AOE weapons. This means every player can instantly focus a target as long as they have LOS. Good human teams will be spread out where you won't be able to AOE them, yet still have the angles to combine fire on anything that comes in. When you have good players that have teamwork, aim and positioning, any vampire trying to attack is quickly gibbed from focus fire.

-Vampires can't focus fire or support each other well. They have to physically go up to someone to attack. This causes them to cluster and opens them up to AOE. They also can't instantly support fights like humans can. Even with choking gas and shockwave, there's a lengthy startup/projectile travel/detonation time.

-Your aim as a human can continually improve. Your effectiveness as a player shoots up dramatically as your aim gets better.

-Humans can move while shooting, from range.

-Vampires attack through melee and evasion. There's not much you can do to improve your melee/basic attack skills, or overall efficacy as a player. You can cancel attacks with roll to fake people out, but it's the only trick you have - it's not nearly enough against people who have good aim and teamwork. Vampire melee attacks are linear, locked in an animation, and predictable. Vampires can't dodge and attack at the same time. They only go straight forward, which makes them very easy to hit. There isn't much skill involved, and there's no way to set yourself apart as a good melee player, unlike humans.

-Almost everything a vampire does is locked into rigid, predictable animations with linear trajectories, and set distances. Whether it's climbing, rolling, or attacking, there's not much you can do to break a player's aim while pressuring them - they're just too easy to predict. Vampires don't have the tools to throw off aim and evade - they rely too much on breaking LOS and retreating out of sight.



Vampires rely on melee and evasion - I think the skill cap for vampires could be raised with a few tweaks:

-Let vampires cancel a roll into an attack. This means vampires can cut their roll distance short and mix up humans in close combat, giving them more tools to throw off a human's aim while pressuring. Cancelling a roll with attack would put roll on a 0.7 s cooldown so players can't chain spam attack-roll-attack.

-OR let vampires buffer charged attacks during rolls and jumps. This means vampires can use evasive rolls to dodge to get out of range and throw off human aim in a less predictable manner, then come out of the roll with a charged attack to leap back into range.

-Allow more rotational freedom during vampire melee attacks. This lets vampires aim their melee attacks slightly off center, then drag their mouse/curve to hit the side of a human, or charge a leap attack and turn to slash a human while soaring past it.
Vampires always forced to attack straight on from the same angle is too predictable and feels very limiting.

-Let vampires leap off walls, instead of just going straight up/dropping straight down. Pressing back while climbing = reverse wall jump. Strafe while climbing = shift sideways. More evasive tools and less locked trajectories/distances for vampires are going to be a necessity as human aim improves.

Oroibahazopi
18th Dec 2013, 11:06
I'd like to be able to hang off a wall without moving also.

Pretty much agree with the meta synopsis though.

Scion_of_Balance
18th Dec 2013, 11:20
I agree as well. Especially on the wall climbing. If it isn't implemented for every vampire, I hope at least a new class will be introduced that can do that.

There might be a simpler solution to all this though. A few well thought out new vampire abilities could change the dynamic instantly.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 12:55
I disagree that vampires can't support. But, you're right, it's not instant. Typically, all vampire teams have an "attack only" mentality vs a "role" mentality. As such, they blow their wad of skills and can't do much more after that.

Also, vampires are really getting screwed atm with the auto aim set-up. I don't know how many times I've attacked someone 5 times only to have 3 miss at the last attack and take 600 damage from someone trying to finish them off and land a hit. The attacks are going cleanly through the player, but nothing registers. This hurts vampire scores too. Especially if the humans are supporting properly. I really think it needs to be fixed ASAP.

jestdoit
18th Dec 2013, 14:18
I disagree that vampires can't support. But, you're right, it's not instant. Typically, all vampire teams have an "attack only" mentality vs a "role" mentality. As such, they blow their wad of skills and can't do much more after that.


In disorganized games, yea, vampires can support each other - I find that it's very relative to the humans' skill levels. When you get 3 people who have good aim and timing, they lock down the map with combined fire and make it impossible for vampires to do anything. It's not like you can attack them as a group, either, since they'll be spread out, on separate roofs, etc, while still being able to focus fire. It gets to a point where you just die from sticking your head out, you die while you're stuck in the landing animation of a tyrant jump, you die mid-cast before your skills can come out, you die off successful reaver pounces before you can activate evade. The instant combined DPS is just insane.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 16:19
That's true, but it goes back to what you were saying about speed more than lack of ability.

I still think that giving up a primary ability for the ability to carry a teammate with the sentinel is nice (maybe using jump while mid air falling afterwards as the ability to get the AOE on the fall, but still having to cooldown)

Psyonix_Corey
18th Dec 2013, 17:13
This is definitely a huge concern for me. The hope is that we can infuse enough skill into abilities like Pounce, Charge/Jump, and Kidnap to give vampires a viable skill curve but as you say it isn't symmetrical with human aiming prowess.

We have specifically tried to avoid and remove parts of maps that reward humans standing in opposite corners and creating a deadly crossfire in large open spaces, but it's an ongoing process.

I'll discuss the proposed ideas with the team today and see if anything resonates. I like the idea of giving skilled vampires more fine tuned control of melee and movement. Wall jump is definitely doable.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 17:59
This is definitely a huge concern for me. The hope is that we can infuse enough skill into abilities like Pounce, Charge/Jump, and Kidnap to give vampires a viable skill curve but as you say it isn't symmetrical with human aiming prowess.

We have specifically tried to avoid and remove parts of maps that reward humans standing in opposite corners and creating a deadly crossfire in large open spaces, but it's an ongoing process.

I'll discuss the proposed ideas with the team today and see if anything resonates. I like the idea of giving skilled vampires more fine tuned control of melee and movement. Wall jump is definitely doable.

Try raising the circle in Valeholm. Just high enough so that a scout can't snipe wall to market and vice-versa.

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 18:02
Try raising the circle in Valeholm. Just high enough so that a scout can't snipe wall to market and vice-versa.

Also on that note, shorten the dock camping spot in Freeport a bit. It's too far back and you can get sniped before even being able to charge in, even from inside the building on the left hand side. Charging from inside and going out and turning enough to get to the end of the dock.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 18:14
Use the crane.

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 18:18
Use the crane.

Thought you meant crane-kick from karate kid for a moment :rasp:

Works, but not always, and regardless I still think it should be shortened, unless the only way to counter dock camping is to use the crane.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 18:24
Smoke bomb + sentinel in the back works well too.

On a side note: I do think that It'd be cool if the crane extended out far enough to reach the middle platform. And then you could warbow players off into the water too, unless it's a sentinel who's aware enough to fly off before landing in it. :)

Razaiim
18th Dec 2013, 18:46
Freeport crane is an excellent vampire spot, and it is possible to jump from crane to the middle dock, I find have more issues with humans in the house, then on the dock.
I agree with everything that has been said otherwise, player skill rewards humans better than vampires. Personally I feel that the current abilities for vampires are excellent for new to mid-level (skill not ranks) players, but need tweaks that only affect high level play. This is essentially the opposite of the recent changes to vampires, where it became harder to use skills to their fullest (aim assist), but that full potential was never increased.

Dysfuncti0n
19th Dec 2013, 00:50
You said wall jump is doable, what about a whole entire different mechanic for climbing? Think of Assassin's Creed climbing, assassinations, and mix that with some creativity and dev magic. Possibly allow humans to slowly climb as well?

Also, I enjoy the combat on both sides but I feel the vampires right now (Granted, It is alpha) is not fluid. I don't feel like there is a connect in the combos. If you guys plan on revamping it, changing it, or future plans for it then disregard.

Oroibahazopi
19th Dec 2013, 00:54
Humans take reduced damage when knocked down, vampires don't.

While I think humans do have an advantage right now I see a lot of stupid vampire play which just feeds the human team.

Strike5150
19th Dec 2013, 12:45
Yay someone else got on the bandwagon. Vampire melee attacks are terrible. When you play against good human players you basically can't even get close. One hunter can rip through you life before you have used all your abilities. Try charging and shockwaving right after, you can't even finish the combo before ONE hunter can kill you. Granted this means he is firing at you as soon as you start ending your charge and while you are casting shockwave, but ideally that shouldn't be possible.

It is so aggravating to have to move in a straight line, and as cmstache said a lot of melee attacks are missing now. So now I'm like a lvl 1 noob spamming attack even though I know its bad, I can't change it. I just have to hope hes too busy doing something else, or is terrible at the game.

I would like to say though that vampires can work together a little better than what the OP suggested. We usually run at least one reaver with smoke to help set up the battlefield, you can't just charge into 4 humans waiting for something to attack and expect to live. Smoke makes them run and not look around for a second, which is really important vs ranged aoe :). We need more skills like that, currently there aren't many that make the humans run, or cause some kind of chaos, without costing you life points at the same time.

jestdoit
19th Dec 2013, 22:27
I think fog could be a lot better. Against good teams, they'll be spread all over the place, but still have LOS on each other, so fog barely has any effect. Or they'll just shoot through the fog regardless. You can still make out vampires through fog, track vampires through damage numbers, and see team outlines if someone gets pounced/picked up.

Strike5150
20th Dec 2013, 15:27
Yea getting pounced sux, maybe we could improve the darkness of the fog, you shouldn't be able to see vamps through it. I know I can't this could be due to gamma being very high?

Oroibahazopi
20th Dec 2013, 15:41
I know ignorant people are going to call me a cheater or something but I can't resist.

What fog?

Psyonix_Corey
20th Dec 2013, 17:12
I know ignorant people are going to call me a cheater or something but I can't resist.

What fog?

Which INI setting is allowing you to hide the fog, particle LOD settings?

Oroibahazopi
20th Dec 2013, 17:19
FogVolumes=False Probably

You have seen screens of my ini, there is fog but it's more like a haze.

Jewer
20th Dec 2013, 22:15
The other problem I'm currently seeing, is how hard it is to coordinate as a team on vampire side. Humans synergize exceptionally well just by being individually alert and putting shots on target. Vampires on the other hand, rely heavily on making the most of their abilities in the correct order and rotation. If even just one person is on cooldown, it can put the team as a whole at a huge disadvantage.

This discrepancy is also apparent in determining where the enemy is. As human side, all you have to do is look where the projectile tracers are headed in the distance, and/or look for the hp bars of a sniped vampire. Every single shot is basically a target identifier. As a vampire I either have to wait for a teammate to take damage, or put myself in an open vantage point to find where the humans are set up. And even if I do know their location, I then have to wait for the rest of the team to find it as well. Stopping to constantly type in team chat is NOT a viable solution here (not to mention the current bug of being able to read the enemy team's teamchat).

Are there any plans to implement VGS, or something of the like? Having a quick way to say when you want to go on the offensive, fall back, have a corpse for someone to eat, etc etc would go a long way in helping teams work together.

To be clear, I am agreeing with the original points jest made, and would definitely like to see more 'freedom' on vampire movesets. But, the humans will always have some inherent advantages regardless of vampire buffs/changes if there is no means for reliable in-game communication.

Oroibahazopi
20th Dec 2013, 22:22
Are there any plans to implement VGS, or something of the like? Having a quick way to say when you want to go on the offensive, fall back, have a corpse for someone to eat, etc etc would go a long way in helping teams work together.
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8179

Psyonix_Corey
20th Dec 2013, 22:55
FogVolumes=False Probably

You have seen screens of my ini, there is fog but it's more like a haze.

It's actually the TEXTUREGROUP settings being allowed to be set too low.

We'll be clamping them in the next update so you can't go below "Low" texture settings.

RainaAudron
21st Dec 2013, 09:01
I must say I agree with Jest´s post. Once you reach higher levels and play against equally skilled players, humans will most certainly win, been seeing this quite a lot lately.