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Psyonix_Corey
17th Dec 2013, 17:26
This will NOT be in the next update you get - that is primarily a bug fixing patch rolling out tomorrow hopefully. This will be in the subsequent update and there's not a date set on it yet. This is where you can complain about the changes in advance! :D


Hunter
Siege Bow

Damage reduced to 95, was 100

Grenade

Cooldown increased to 15 seconds, was 10

Sticky Grenade

Cooldown increased to 15 seconds, was 10

Scout
Compound Bow

Unaimed damage increased to 190, was 185
Fire rate increased to 1.5, was 1.4

Swiftbow

Unaimed damage increased to 185, was 170
Fire rate increased to 1.5, was 1.4

Storm Bow

Unaimed explosion damage increased to 180, was 150
Explosion radius increased to 350
Clip size increased to 5, was 4
Fire rate increased to 1.3, was 1.2

War Bow

Unaimed damage increased to 205, was 185
Fire rate increased to 1.3, was 1.2

Reaver
Choking Haze

Damage reduced to 83/sec-166/sec, was 100/sec-200/sec

Oroibahazopi
17th Dec 2013, 22:53
I worry that Hunter and Scout are coming closer together and losing diversification with these changes. You're boosting the scouts close range ability while leaving the sniping aspect unchanged.

Personally I'm strongly considering switching to Hunter from Scout simply because the added dps potential is 50% or more on Hunter. Good Hunters will easily hit distant targets, albeit maybe with less spike damage, and have insane dps in close range.

I would really you rather consider some change to the draw times on the Scout bows rather than the un-aimed dps increase, probably with a Charged damage decrease to balance things out. Like I have mentioned numerous times, a lot of the damage done by scouts is regened off, it's not really a good indicator. Plus the guys I play with are getting 25k+ dmg with Hunter these days too (guess they finally learned to aim ^^).

cmstache
17th Dec 2013, 23:09
I personally would like something to make the hunter less accurate at a mid-cross map range, like a wider spread or more recoil.

Psyonix_Corey
18th Dec 2013, 01:41
Hunter DPS is roughly 350 and Scout (post-buff) is about 265. We can look at Hunter distance accuracy.

The rationale for leaving Scout draw time alone is that we don't want to introduce more and more long range burst damage to humans. As a vampire it's already quite frustrating to get picked off from halfway across the map - buffing Scout drawn shots will only make it worse. The current refire and draw times give most players a chance to react and break line of sight. If it's much faster by the time (after latency, in particular) you realize where you've been shot from he will likely be fully drawn again.

In general we're happy with where Scouts are in the "sniper" role and have no current plans to enhance that aspect. The buffs to unaimed fire are in response to complaints and difficulty with general survivability as Scout. You always have the option of using the War Bow if you want to trade off sustained close range DPS for massive long range power and utility.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 01:56
TO back this up, I'm not a bad sentinel player by any means, and I just got the ever-loving crap kicked out of me by Jest. The dude DOESN'T miss with a war-bow. Even in turning snapshots. Literally, didn't see him miss a single shot on me. If you don't have enough killing power with the scout, then you need better accuracy and more practice; it's not the scout's ability that's lacking. He's living proof. The scouts generally have the highest damage output of all the human players.

Razaiim
18th Dec 2013, 05:12
I agree with Stache/sausage. A well played scout is extremely difficult to play against. The only way I find I can handle scouts like jest or talespin is to climb up under them and hope they don't see you. I've had moments of being chain stunned by a single player as the war bow knocked me down but kept me in sight of the player, think chain pounces but from a single player and from far away.

It should be noted though that on average, fighting a scout is like any other but the highest level players make it insanely hard (and mildly rewarding when you do get them)

Oroibahazopi
18th Dec 2013, 10:13
Hunter DPS is roughly 350 and Scout (post-buff) is about 265. We can look at Hunter distance accuracy.
I make the dps on the Multibow to be 360.


The rationale for leaving Scout draw time alone is that we don't want to introduce more and more long range burst damage to humans. As a vampire it's already quite frustrating to get picked off from halfway across the map - buffing Scout drawn shots will only make it worse. The current refire and draw times give most players a chance to react and break line of sight. If it's much faster by the time (after latency, in particular) you realize where you've been shot from he will likely be fully drawn again.
It's really not hard to see where a long yellow line is coming from... if you're regularly getting hit from across the map then you're bad. There is so much cover it's trivially easy to get right on top of humans without getting in LoS. All the best Sentinels fly at ground level, and at most below rooftop level. Even Scouts on rooftops don't have 100% vision.


In general we're happy with where Scouts are in the "sniper" role and have no current plans to enhance that aspect. The buffs to unaimed fire are in response to complaints and difficulty with general survivability as Scout. You always have the option of using the War Bow if you want to trade off sustained close range DPS for massive long range power and utility.
I asked for a tradeoff not an enhancement, lower draw time in exchange for damage.

Scout survivability is fine, I honestly have no clue who you're asking about that. Volley, trap and the extra accuracy at range more than make up for subpar unaimed fire. Warbow sucks unless you have 1-2 other scouts with swiftbow to insta-gib someone, it's an annoyance at best. Given the time it takes to charge, that if the scout can see you you can see him and the horrible fov and sensitivity gimp it's easy to just break LoS.

jestdoit
18th Dec 2013, 11:22
TO back this up, I'm not a bad sentinel player by any means, and I just got the ever-loving crap kicked out of me by Jest. The dude DOESN'T miss with a war-bow. Even in turning snapshots. Literally, didn't see him miss a single shot on me. If you don't have enough killing power with the scout, then you need better accuracy and more practice; it's not the scout's ability that's lacking. He's living proof. The scouts generally have the highest damage output of all the human players.

Oh hey. *waves* Been playing with scout simply because I don't have any other unlocks. I've actually found the default bow to be the most effective, it's just that dropping evil vultures out of the sky never loses its joy.

Just made my first hunter unlock today so I'll be transitioning into that. The GP grind is just so painful that it forces you into sticking with one thing. Been on the receiving end of some crazy hunter DPS from players like ZP - the raw numbers just look so much higher than what the scout has to offer. Plus 600 dmg nades?

I think the skillcap for humans is much higher than it is for vampires. As your aim improves, your effectiveness as a human shoots up with it. As a vampire, there doesn't seem to be much you can do to improve as a player. You can have a solid mentality and tactics, but nothing that lets you set yourself apart technically as a player, like improving your aim as a human. I think we'll be seeing a lot of human blowouts as player aim improves. I really think vampires need more tools to raise their skill cap, things that let them use player skill to be more effective - wall jumping instead of just going up/down, cancelling rolls into attacks, etc.

Scion_of_Balance
18th Dec 2013, 11:33
I think the damage increase is a good idea. I play a lot of the scout and I can't tell you how many times they get away with -100 health.

Also the Warbow is devastating with good timing. The knockback allows you to interrupt most incoming vampire combos. Kidnap, Pounce, Leap... all of those can be countered and a wasted cooldown if you wait for the opportunity. However I completely agree that from a dps standpoint, its lacking. (but that's not really the point of using it)

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 12:48
I make the dps on the Multibow to be 360.


It's really not hard to see where a long yellow line is coming from... if you're regularly getting hit from across the map then you're bad. There is so much cover it's trivially easy to get right on top of humans without getting in LoS. All the best Sentinels fly at ground level, and at most below rooftop level. Even Scouts on rooftops don't have 100% vision.

This coming from the guy who doesn't use sentinels very often. While you're right, flying low is nice to stay under cover (In fact, I can often be seen jumping from building to building with a glide in between), but eventually you HAVE to go high. The only way to prevent yourself from not landing mid kidnap is to go from a nose-dive to gather speed. I've tested it, it's incredibly rare to hit the ground when doing it and much faster. You can get in and get out. Trying to attack a person from near the ground as a sentinel is suicide, ESPECIALLY if you're having to be the lead attacker.


I asked for a tradeoff not an enhancement, lower draw time in exchange for damage.

Scout survivability is fine, I honestly have no clue who you're asking about that. Volley, trap and the extra accuracy at range more than make up for subpar unaimed fire. Warbow sucks unless you have 1-2 other scouts with swiftbow to insta-gib someone, it's an annoyance at best. Given the time it takes to charge, that if the scout can see you you can see him and the horrible fov and sensitivity gimp it's easy to just break LoS.


war bow is all you need. I don't know how many times last night alone jest shot me and I was dead before I could even stand up because I was getting ganked by 2 other players. And some of those were via rooftop.

Oroibahazopi
18th Dec 2013, 14:45
I don't need to play Sent often to be able to see Sents who go 20/1 k/d, and see how they play.

As for the warbow comment, I really can't argue with a person who thinks that 3v1 is a winnable situation when the dps on Hunters is 300+ i.e. 3-4 seconds and you're dead. ANY stun in that situation will kill you, the Scout could throw knives and the same thing would happen.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 16:23
I stand by the belief that a properly played sent shouldn't go 20/1. The reavers and tyrants should be doing the most damage.

I do, however, want to see more movement ability via the vamps.

Psyonix_Corey
18th Dec 2013, 17:08
One issue with Sentinel that we allowed to go live due to deadlines and just to see what happened was the current state of Kidnap.

Our original design was to have it require more anticipation on the Sentinel's part - e.g. you have to trigger it in advance, and can't simply fly next to a human and tap RMB at the last second. In general right now it's almost impossible to anticipate and dodge a good Kidnapping Sentinel, which (while I'm sure Sentinel players like) isn't ideal.

What IS in is the ability to disrupt a Kidnap with damage, but there's no feedback to the affected Sentinel (which sucks), and you can bypass this by simply waiting until the last possible second to trigger Kidnap. So it's flawed.

What we don't want to do is force Sentinels to freeze in air for a long warmup animation (similar to Divebomb) before every Kidnap because it feels like they'll be too exposed against good teams, especially good Scouts. So it's a process to figure out the right solution.

It would be useful if you guys know what the 20/1 sentinels are typically doing. Are they kidnap-comboing (kidnap->dive bomb->wing flap), or is it all just Kidnap drops and evasive action?

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 17:17
Sorry for the slight tangent, but I was wondering how you (the devs) feel with chaining Kidnap? or Pounce for the matter?

I admit I have been the victim of a Kidnap chain, as well as part of one whilst playing Sentinel. Sure it can get disrupted, but it's frustrating for the kidnapped player to be so helpless for so long.

Psyonix_Corey
18th Dec 2013, 17:20
Sorry for the slight tangent, but I was wondering how you (the devs) feel with chaining Kidnap? or Pounce for the matter?

I admit I have been the victim of a Kidnap chain, as well as part of one whilst playing Sentinel. Sure it can get disrupted, but it's frustrating for the kidnapped player to be so helpless for so long.

Open to the idea but I'm trying to avoid cases where the second Reaver or Sentinel has their ability mysteriously fail because someone else did it recently. It would suck to line up a great long range Pounce but bounce off your target because he's temporarily immune, etc.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 17:23
Typically, I can 1v1 pretty much anybody and kill them if I can grab them. Although, I did have to practice a lot before being able to grab effectively while under fire.


I run abduct, but kidnap works basically the same way.


Step 1 - Abduct
Step 2- Just as it's ending do a turning nosedive to the ground. If done right it'll set you up for either wing gust or puncture. Wing gust is easier because to do it properly you have to spin nearly 180 degrees. Puncture gives a higher dmg rating though.
Step 3- Melee 1-3x
Step 4- Takeoff (at least for me) for the kill, or a last melee, depending on my dmg taken.


This strategy, if done right, usually yields me between 15-20k damage. I did it the other day to Mark, maybe he can tell you what it's like on the receiving side. It's not as easy as it looks though.

The major issue with this is if you miss with wind gust/puncture it sets you up to be drilled hard with skills. And while you pull them together and isolate them (great for killing, but not so great while being attacked), sentinels aren't exactly built for melee 1v1 fighting. If you miss against a good player you're done because you don't have backup either. If you don't run takeoff (I do, but many ppl prefer divebomb) a good bola will get you instakilled.


I also like jumping off of a building and landing a stray puncture in someone's back. Also, sentinels are great at picking healing players off, all they have to do is dodge and start over before you turn around, but they almost always try to race the sentinel dive with the healing timer, and since I prefer to dive and get in and out I normally win against the clock.


Hope that helps some Corey? Also, falling from a rooftop into a downward insta-dive is good, but it's slower closing the gap though since you aren't airborne prior to the roof jump of doom.


EDIT: Various small typos.

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 17:27
Open to the idea but I'm trying to avoid cases where the second Reaver or Sentinel has their ability mysteriously fail because someone else did it recently. It would suck to line up a great long range Pounce but bounce off your target because he's temporarily immune, etc.

Very true, but it also sucks for the human who is just helpless without a fighting chance unless his/her teammates can free them (which is harder to do if kidnapped on certain maps with enough corners).

I would like to re-suggest my "roll to the side" idea, where after being kidnapped or pounced CC'd, the human player can press right
or left (A or D) and the character rolls to the side fast enough to avoid an immediate follow-up kidnap and/or pounce, but not far enough that you're out of an immediate nosedive area or such.

Vampires can get used to this tactic and if patient enough to wait for it, they'll see this animation and know that "ok this guy will roll, do I go for them or another" and it might give the humans enough time to cover their teammate.

This reduces instant chaining of kidnap and pounce, but still makes it possible, but it requires more timing and for vamps to pay attention, while at the same time, giving the human target player a chance to avoid, as well as his/her teammates to protect said target (if they even can).


EDIT: frankly this roll tactic can also be used for vampires, if you believe being chain knocked down by scouts to be an issue.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 17:30
But, there's nothing funnier than seeing someone falling from my Abduct and caught mid-air by another Sent's kidnap. That kind of stuff shouldn't be punished....

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 17:31
But, there's nothing funnier than seeing someone falling from my Abduct and caught mid-air by another Sent's kidnap. That kind of stuff shouldn't be punished....

Funny for the sentinels, but frustrating the human player.
Sure if you're caught mid-air you won't take fall damage, but you're sat at your pc just like "ughhhh"

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 17:41
But, think about how hard that is to do. O.o, and it doesn't happen often. You can grab people falling off buildings too.

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 17:47
Not saying it isn't difficult, I am sure it's tricky to pull off.

But it just isn't fun for the human player.

If a tyrant lands a great jump followed by a shockwave, that has me knocked down for a while, I can appreciate it, he had to aim twice, and it was my inability to dodge both abilities that got me in this situation. However when you are kidnapped/abducted/pounced, and then as it ends you are immediately kidnapped/pounced etc it is annoying.
Sure I failed dodging the first ability, but I have no chance for the 2nd or 3rd abilities.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 17:58
You're thinking about it wrong. It's a team game, not individual. The players had to coordinate those attacks, and pounces can be interrupted. If you get caught by a pounce, then the 2nd one gets interrupted halfway through by your teammates you essentially turn the match into a 4v2 situation. The reaver's abilities are used up. That's the problem with singling out a player instead of fighting the team itself.


Both strategies have flaws, but your team just isn't capitalizing on it. Voice chat should help remedy this once it's fixed.

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 18:08
You're thinking about it wrong. It's a team game, not individual. The players had to coordinate those attacks, and pounces can be interrupted. If you get caught by a pounce, then the 2nd one gets interrupted halfway through by your teammates you essentially turn the match into a 4v2 situation. The reaver's abilities are used up. That's the problem with singling out a player instead of fighting the team itself.


Both strategies have flaws, but your team just isn't capitalizing on it. Voice chat should help remedy this once it's fixed.

Trust me, I understand this is a team game, and I am thinking about it as such. But I am also thinking about it from a perspective of fun/frustrating.

Yes I know it can take coordination and teamplay to pull them off. But not always, even without teamplay or VoIP, I spot someone being kidnapped or pounced, and I think "hmm easy kill, target has low health after the other vamp is done" and ready my own pounce or such. Does that require immense skill or teamplay on my part? Not really. Is it frustrating for the human players who are chained? Yes.

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 18:16
But it still leaves it as a virtual 3v3 or 4v3 situation. It's not as beneficial as it seems. It might not take teamwork for pounce, But neither does 3 scouts sniping the same sentinel.

Tube_Reaver
18th Dec 2013, 18:23
But it still leaves it as a virtual 3v3 or 4v3 situation. It's not as beneficial as it seems. It might not take teamwork for pounce, But neither does 3 scouts sniping the same sentinel.

It may not be the best teamplay tactic to pull off no, but it is still frustrating.

As to the sentinel being sniped: 2 completely different situations, that can't be compared. If you're sniped, then you were out in the open or caught off guard, and that doesn't chain CC you. Also the scouts have to aim with a lot more precision than a simple pounce with semi auto-aim, or an kidnap pick up on a stationary target.

Oroibahazopi
18th Dec 2013, 20:34
It would be useful if you guys know what the 20/1 sentinels are typically doing. Are they kidnap-comboing (kidnap->dive bomb->wing flap)
Yes. But the caveat here is it wasn't a solo effort, you have a dedicated tank support to draw fire. Also they'd often drop abductees onto other team mates for a quick kill then they (the sent) are given the corpse to heal.

hirukaru
18th Dec 2013, 21:05
Will the wingflap delay after using divebomb be reduced to 1 seconds instead of two.
Impossible to survive now against 4 humans after a divebomb. :P

Oroibahazopi
18th Dec 2013, 21:08
I think the solution is not to try to solo 4 players with a divebomb.

hirukaru
18th Dec 2013, 21:13
I think the solution is not to try to solo 4 players with a divebomb.

I have to if a random team does nothing right :P.

Oroibahazopi
18th Dec 2013, 21:18
Sure, but do you really want sentinels to be op in a properly coordinated group?

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 21:20
They aren't OP in a group. A sentinel still falls far short of anything a hunter or scout and go in a group.

ZangarftheWrassler
18th Dec 2013, 21:29
I know I am a little late to this convo but my issue raising the unaimed damage is that it rewards a player for a relatively accurate shot to begin with. I can land an unaimed shot fairly easily. If you reduced the long range accuracy or even distance, it would feel more appropriate for doing more damage. Just a suggestion. I haven't been on in a few days so I don't know if I can give decent feedback.

Bummed to see choking haze dropped in damage but it's not TOO significant so I can still seeing it being a good way to push groups out of a corner.

hirukaru
18th Dec 2013, 21:40
Sure, but do you really want sentinels to be op in a properly coordinated group?

They where pretty OP but so is every class if played correctly.
There is now a 2 second delay on skill usage.
This means a sentinel is unable to escape in a fight.

Els I will start using different tactics called take off + wing flap combo :P

hirukaru
18th Dec 2013, 21:42
I know I am a little late to this convo but my issue raising the unaimed damage is that it rewards a player for a relatively accurate shot to begin with. I can land an unaimed shot fairly easily. If you reduced the long range accuracy or even distance, it would feel more appropriate for doing more damage. Just a suggestion. I haven't been on in a few days so I don't know if I can give decent feedback.

Bummed to see choking haze dropped in damage but it's not TOO significant so I can still seeing it being a good way to push groups out of a corner.

The choking haze should push people out of a corner. Els humans can camp.
If you got 2 alcs with healing mist you can drop that after each other and stick inside the haze.

(Sorry for double post didnt want to edit and well I am above the law right hhahah) :naughty:

cmstache
18th Dec 2013, 21:46
Actually, that's a 2-1 skill trade-off, thus not very effective. What do you do when that 2nd reaver pops one? The area of poison cloud is significantly wider than healing mist.

hirukaru
18th Dec 2013, 23:26
One issue with Sentinel that we allowed to go live due to deadlines and just to see what happened was the current state of Kidnap.

Our original design was to have it require more anticipation on the Sentinel's part - e.g. you have to trigger it in advance, and can't simply fly next to a human and tap RMB at the last second. In general right now it's almost impossible to anticipate and dodge a good Kidnapping Sentinel, which (while I'm sure Sentinel players like) isn't ideal.

What IS in is the ability to disrupt a Kidnap with damage, but there's no feedback to the affected Sentinel (which sucks), and you can bypass this by simply waiting until the last possible second to trigger Kidnap. So it's flawed.

What we don't want to do is force Sentinels to freeze in air for a long warmup animation (similar to Divebomb) before every Kidnap because it feels like they'll be too exposed against good teams, especially good Scouts. So it's a process to figure out the right solution.

It would be useful if you guys know what the 20/1 sentinels are typically doing. Are they kidnap-comboing (kidnap->dive bomb->wing flap), or is it all just Kidnap drops and evasive action?

No wing flap anymore because of the 2 second delay Corey.

But can I press RMB on the last second really :| never knew that.
Always pressed it a bit before. Good to know you just made me OP


Actually, that's a 2-1 skill trade-off, thus not very effective. What do you do when that 2nd reaver pops one? The area of poison cloud is significantly wider than healing mist.

Not my problem if iam the Reaver right ;)

Oroibahazopi
19th Dec 2013, 00:37
I'm fairly certain that scouts are going to be OP as **** with the unaimed fire buff.

Hugbringer
19th Dec 2013, 01:42
I'll ad my two cents, seeing as how I've pretty much been playing the Sentinel exclusively since I started. I like to focus on a class instead of bouncing around....that aside though.

I agree it is very hard for someone to dodge out of a kidnap, as rolling doesn't guarantee a miss though it does happen. I'd be completely fine if there was some sort of 'build-up' element too it, much like the Reaver thingy, though it is the sound element that comes with it that would kill it's usefulness I think. 'Hearing' where things are coming from make a big difference and I've rolled out of the way of sentinels, reavers and grenades and what-not just from sound alone. I feel forcing a 'longer' snatch with such a loud sound would just result in an even faster death against people that know what they are doing.

So a build-up would be great but the very obvious sound-effect would make it so much easier to avoid, almost turn around and attack me. Sure the wing flap (sound effect) is there, but thats a different story than that crazy screech. Perhaps some sort of 'Charge and Release' with limited movement, much like the Tyrant charge. Would force you commit to a lane of 'attack' with limited movement afterwards to correct your aim, but make it easier to dodge away from? So timing and fore-thought would come into play, working around the 'aim' and 'when to release' so as not to give yourself away too much

Freezing in the air is definitely not be a great idea, as I'm already a sitting duck most of the time.

My matches when I've gone 20/1....or better....just to brag a bit :) ...Though it has been through really reading the situation. Most of the time my tactics are

1. Locate humans and potentially draw fire, leading their line of sight away from the approaching vamps. They get greedy trying to shoot me most of the time
2. Waiting till the other vamps engage and fly in to snatch, than drop on retreating vamps or reinforcements.
3a. Fly away and come at from a different angle and than Dive-Bomb/Wing-Flap to help finish off Charge/Pounce victims.
3b. Snatch a lone victim that goes for a heal or is going 'Rambo', than do the Kidnap>divebomb>wingflap combo for easy 4v3 action now.
3c. Drop down after the engagement if powers are on cool down to melee enemies in the back or help finish pounce victims.

For the most part it works just fine. My deaths are usually my own mistake, though the scouts have definitely made my life difficult now that there are so many running around. I'd say that a good 7 out of 10 of my deaths are from scouts or result of War bows. So I suppose they are the 'Scissors' to my 'Paper', if that is intentional.

I like the 'Abduct+DiveBome+Wingflap' combo simply because it has versatility. I can get pretty verbose though and am happy to share more, I'll leave it at this.

Oroibahazopi
19th Dec 2013, 01:55
Hugbringer "Sentinel build discussion" post, doo eiiiiiit.

PsyonixErich
19th Dec 2013, 18:30
There is only one true sentinel build. Echo location + puncture + Kidnap. Dem Stats don't lie. :3

RainaAudron
20th Dec 2013, 00:26
Hey Erich, today we played and a player who was using echolocation complained it didn´t really do anything... I haven´t tried it myself I must say, is it any useful?

cmstache
20th Dec 2013, 01:21
I've done it, does almost nothing. The explanation is pretty misleading too. The only time it's really useful is as a full voice party, then you can keep isolating the spawning guy.

PsyonixErich
20th Dec 2013, 02:49
Echolation is the best. It lets me auto spot where the enemy is!! You just gotta know when to use it and what to look for. When I use Echolocation I look for scouts, then see which direction they are facing. I will then proceed to sneak up behind them and kidnap them away. Echolation is great to know which direction to avoid when you are flying in low and trying to get the sneak up on humans. And like I said, Echolation is even good for when you are on the ground and there are humans hunting you, cause then you know which doors to go or not go into. Like I said, my k/d stats don't lie. :D Just give it a chance and remember it's used to be tactical and thoughtful.

Oroibahazopi
20th Dec 2013, 03:58
IGN?

LOFO1993
21st Dec 2013, 12:20
I can see a lot of complaint for the Scout damage increase.

I play only as a Scout with humans, and the Swiftbow in particular seems already to be too powerful as it is now, if any tweaking has to be done. If you're good at aiming you can literally kill anything in a matter of seconds: you load the first shot, shoot from a distance, keep on shooting, throw knives while the vampire approaches, roll back and keep shooting. The Swiftbow is also terrifyingly good for finishing off wounded vampires trying to get away, because most of the times if you move cleverly you manage to load the shot before they disappear from sight and finish them with a single, unforeseeable and almost unavoidable shot.

I know you must get good at it, and I don't suggest decreasing the damage. To me, it seems just OK as it is now: you must be good to use it effectively, otherwise you don't accomplish much. Now even without loading the first shot or using any ability you can suck away almost 800 life points with a clip by just spraying, opposed to 678 now. If you are 1vs1 it won't probably make all that difference, but for killing running away vampires it means taking away 350-380 HPs will now need just 2 rapid shots.


On the contrary, I completely agree with nerfing somehow the Hunter's bombs. They were way overpowered.

I don't know about the Choking Haze, in some situations it seems like the only thing to possibly break up a camping group, but I guess it's up to the vampires to use effectively all the different classes.

Oroibahazopi
1st Jan 2014, 21:51
Are these notes going ahead as planned? And if so when will they be live?

cmstache
1st Jan 2014, 22:28
It's my understanding that they were already completed and being used in dev closed testing, just not updated for us... sooo.... tomorrow? BTW, can we make it so that when you pounce people on freeport you don't randomly jump off them and land in the water? It's pretty BS when there's little to nothing other than pounce near a wall to control the direction you get off them.

jestdoit
2nd Jan 2014, 12:55
I hope the choking haze nerf is being reconsidered. It looks like it's being nerfed because of pounce+haze, which is a low-mid level tactic. Good against solo players, but useless against good human teams. Choking haze is a vampire team's only decent skirmishing/anti-camp tool. Cutting its DPS is unnecessary since it's not burst damage or a disable. It's the only safe way to punish and discourage heal station camping, and people are already tanking through its low damage.

Losing a fifth of its DPS might not sound too bad, but I fully expect complete human domination among skilled players next patch. Vampires need all the help they can get right now.

blincoln
2nd Jan 2014, 20:26
I agree about Choking Haze, and the Scout damage increases. I have to imagine these decisions were made because relatively new players will often say "vampires are overpowered!", and because it's easy to get killed as a Scout if you aren't very good with them (I am one of those people who is not very good with them :)) but really, the skilled players already wipe vampires out with ease - there's just a learning/skill curve.

Psyonix_Corey
7th Jan 2014, 22:40
For what it's worth, we're going to modify and undo some of these changes.

- The Scout fire rate buffs, aside from the Stormbow, have been undone. The damage increases are staying but result in relatively minor damage buffs.
- Choking Haze has been restored to its former potency, but it now uses the same logic as Volley for damage scaling. This means damage ramps up the longer the player stays in the AOE, rather than the longer the AOE is active. This means it is more deadly for players who stay in it longer (and should make it harder to "tank" it using Healing Mist) but less punishing for players reacting to it or just touching the edge by accident.

I'm also going to try to get some changes in to reduce extreme long range accuracy for Hunter crossbows.

Oroibahazopi
7th Jan 2014, 22:57
I would prefer you increase damage drop off rather than increasing randomness. Night now you can easily do 50% ish damage at cross map ranges with the crossbows.

Could you be more specific, there is more than just RoF and base damage changes in the notes

Scout
Compound Bow

Unaimed damage increased to 190, was 185


Swiftbow

Unaimed damage increased to 185, was 170


Storm Bow

Unaimed explosion damage increased to 180, was 150
Explosion radius increased to 350
Clip size increased to 5, was 4
Fire rate increased to 1.3, was 1.2


War Bow

Unaimed damage increased to 205, was 185

If these are the actual upcoming changes, then stormbow goes from the worst to the very best according to my maths.

Psyonix_Corey
7th Jan 2014, 23:15
Those are the changes in the dev branch currently. If Stormbow becomes OP we can tune it back down. It does slightly less DPS than the Compound Bow - 210 x 1.3 shots per sec = 262.5 dps vs. 190 x 1.4 shots per sec = 266 dps, gains AOE damage, and loses one shot per clip, has a lower fire rate, and doesn't do the bulk of its damage instantly. Also keep in mind the aimed damage on the Stormbow is unchanged so it is less effective for sniping than the Compound Bow.

Given its design as an "AOE" bow the Stormbow *should* win over the Compound Bow in clustered teamfights, but the limited AOE radius (roughly 70% of an alchemist bomb) keeps it in check to an extent.

As far as Hunter randomness vs. damage dropoff, I'm OK with lowering the "bottom" damage at long range but the point is to make it less reliable at extreme range vs. just a pea shooter. It's still frustrating as a vampire to get peppered by crossbow bolts doing 40% damage from across the map. What I'm mainly looking at doing is reducing the aim assistance provided when the target is far away - currently it negates too much of the spread's impact at long range.

Kwazii
8th Jan 2014, 15:45
Is there an actual RNG damage range mechanic in the game? I hope not because that really doesn't make sense at all.

cmstache
8th Jan 2014, 15:56
The charge shot vs the sent needs to be fixed. Hitting a flying sentinel with a charged shot only results in about 200-250 damage total, instead of 400-475 that should happen. I assume it has to do with sent travel speeds and the splash effect?

Also, I really think the warbow needs to decrease in stun time. Ending abilities and such is nice, but you should get up almost instantly. The "sitting there on the ground after wasting an ability" is pretty OP. I like the stun effect, I just think it's a little too long.


Also, yes, it makes a lot of sense. A crossbow shouldn't be able to do more damage on full auto at a long range than the scout bow, which happens.

Psyonix_Corey
8th Jan 2014, 16:40
Is there an actual RNG damage range mechanic in the game? I hope not because that really doesn't make sense at all.

There is not. We do weapon damage falloff on a curve based on distance similar to CoD, Battlefield, etc. At long range the Hunter does about 50% damage for instance. The Scout bow has a much longer curve by contrast.

Oroibahazopi
8th Jan 2014, 18:37
But you do have random spread?

I'd rather do say 10% damage but have consistent aim at range than a 20% chance to do 50% damage.

If you've ever played tribes ascend you'll know there are a great many people who can hunt pixels so the aim assist off or on wont do a lot to the higher skilled players.

Psyonix_Corey
8th Jan 2014, 22:47
The charge shot vs the sent needs to be fixed. Hitting a flying sentinel with a charged shot only results in about 200-250 damage total, instead of 400-475 that should happen. I assume it has to do with sent travel speeds and the splash effect?.

Good catch, we never see this internally but I was able to reproduce it when forcing lag between my test clients. Will get this fixed for a future patch.

jestdoit
9th Jan 2014, 02:20
For what it's worth, we're going to modify and undo some of these changes.

- Choking Haze has been restored to its former potency, but it now uses the same logic as Volley for damage scaling. This means damage ramps up the longer the player stays in the AOE, rather than the longer the AOE is active. This means it is more deadly for players who stay in it longer (and should make it harder to "tank" it using Healing Mist) but less punishing for players reacting to it or just touching the edge by accident.


If there's some special way to abuse choking haze, I haven't come across it yet. Atm It does 60 hp per tick, and people are running/rolling out of the AOE before the grenade's even been detonated. Against experienced players I can get maybe one to three ticks when used to skirmish/initiate, if I'm lucky.

Newer player just stand in it since they're not aware of its danger, which seems like it'd skew metrics. Compared to the shadow bomb, it's a straight upgrade, but that's because shadow bomb isn't very good (may need more duration and AOE size).

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 02:24
It's OP vs 4 alchemists who camp in a 1m^3 building. So it's OP vs 80% of the community.

Oroibahazopi
9th Jan 2014, 18:40
But you do have random spread?

I'd rather do say 10% damage but have consistent aim at range than a 20% chance to do 50% damage.

If you've ever played tribes ascend you'll know there are a great many people who can hunt pixels so the aim assist off or on wont do a lot to the higher skilled players.
Did someone increase the spread? *shakes fist

Kuro1n
9th Jan 2014, 19:01
Random spread is crap, either there should be a pattern to it or better make more falloff. Best is no aim assist so there is true skill involved and make falloff higher and spread with pattern (IMO). On the other hand I might be biased as I am one of the pixel hunters of tribes.