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Edx
16th Mar 2008, 19:28
DX3 MUST be a success because...

...it will influence the nature of gaming for many years to come. DX1 influenced many games since, but we have not have a game as deep as DX. To put it another way, they have improved on a lot of things, but still not bettered or even matched the amazing things that we loved about DX1.

So, if we assume this game tries to at least match the greatness of DX1 if it isnt successfull then that will tell other developers that spending money on this kind of game isnt worth it, and should stick to simple shooters like HL or Bioshock. The solution isnt to dumb things down like Bioshock, but at least that would safeguard the DX series as Bioshock was very popular. Its to go all out to try and make sure you push the envelope with this game, because if they make another dumbed down job like DX2 it will not only fail but it will mean other games like DX1 are less likely to happen in the future.

EDIT: Commercially, it might make sence to act on the safe side and just try and make it as popular as Bioshock or HL and therefore as dumb as Bioshock or HL. But unless they really try hard to get it "right" here and not give in to that it will probably be a poor thing for the future of gaming.

Discuss. :)

jordan_a
16th Mar 2008, 19:50
DX1 influenced many games since, but we have not had a game as deep as DX. :scratch:

Edx
16th Mar 2008, 20:27
:scratch:

Why are you confused?


...To put it another way, they have improved on a lot of things, but still not bettered or even matched the amazing things that we loved about DX1.

matches81
16th Mar 2008, 21:00
DX3 MUST be a success because...

...it will influence the nature of gaming for many years to come. DX1 influenced many games since, but we have not have a game as deep as DX. To put it another way, they have improved on a lot of things, but still not bettered or even matched the amazing things that we loved about DX1.

That's not making much sense to me. DX1 sadly was not as influential as it should have been. At least I can't think of a game that showed clear influence of DX1, except for DX2 of course. Also, how do you know that DX3 "will influence the nature of gaming for many years to come"? Those are some pretty big words and, to be honest, I think you're a bit exaggerating on the whole "DX3 will be our messiah" thing. We know nothing about DX3 so far, not even if it will be a great game or not.


So, if we assume this game tries to at least match the greatness of DX1 if it isnt successfull then that will tell other developers that spending money on this kind of game isnt worth it, and should stick to simple shooters like HL or Bioshock. The solution isnt to dumb things down like Bioshock, but at least that would safeguard the DX series as Bioshock was very popular. Its to go all out to try and make sure you push the envelope with this game, because if they make another dumbed down job like DX2 it will not only fail but it will mean other games like DX1 are less likely to happen in the future.
It's a simple fact that more complex games are commercial nonsense. The most successful games have always been and will always be simple ones, perhaps with the added "easy to learn, hard to master" aspect for added addictiveness. Complex games cost more money to develop and if you're lucky you reach about half the people you could reach with a simple game. In my opinion developers only make complex games if they really, really want to and, more importantly, can afford it. Sadly, gaming has more and more become like the movies:
Big games are like big movies, made by big companies, whose interests lie less in "artistic expression" or something like that than in simple commercial success, and the big movies that are willing to take a risk and dare to be different aren't many. I guess this will stay that way, because, again, just like with movies, most people are content with cheap run-of-the-mill crap. Even if DX3 would really come out to be the holy grail of FPS-RPGs, with decent complexity and a fantastic storyline, and would be unbelievably successful, I doubt that this would lead to lots of more complex games.

pauldenton
16th Mar 2008, 23:17
DX3 MUST be a success because...

...it will influence the nature of gaming for many years to come. DX1 influenced many games since, but we have not have a game as deep as DX. To put it another way, they have improved on a lot of things, but still not bettered or even matched the amazing things that we loved about DX1.

So, if we assume this game tries to at least match the greatness of DX1 if it isnt successfull then that will tell other developers that spending money on this kind of game isnt worth it, and should stick to simple shooters like HL or Bioshock. The solution isnt to dumb things down like Bioshock, but at least that would safeguard the DX series as Bioshock was very popular. Its to go all out to try and make sure you push the envelope with this game, because if they make another dumbed down job like DX2 it will not only fail but it will mean other games like DX1 are less likely to happen in the future.

EDIT: Commercially, it might make sence to act on the safe side and just try and make it as popular as Bioshock or HL and therefore as dumb as Bioshock or HL. But unless they really try hard to get it "right" here and not give in to that it will probably be a poor thing for the future of gaming.

Discuss. :)

you make some good points, comerciality/less complex is not always the safe side, it is a crowded market. many simple/comercial games bomb without trace and would cry out to have the sales, high regard and following of DX.

FistOFun
17th Mar 2008, 00:42
The gaming industry NEEDS an non pretencious indepth and deep game such as Deus Ex. I feel it has recently become to comfortable with rehashing what has sold before in favour of the safer bet.

Yes it might not always be safer to in terms of the gamers wishes to dumb down a game but often enough its not really the gamers that have the last decision. Bioshock was a fun game however it would have been alot better if they have actually made it a more of an RPG system like I thought they had originally proposed. Crysis is a prime example of this. If you watch some of the old trailers they give examples of being able to customise the suit and different forms of ammunition. Instead in the end they went for the concept of "People want to be amasing at everything" rather than "let people tailor the character to their form of play" and got rid of these features.

gamer0004
17th Mar 2008, 07:25
I think that there are a lot of gamers who want a complex game (complex not in how you control your character but in how complex the situations and the stroyline are). DX3 could sell lots of copies, but only if they advertise right.
No trailers with mere action, but really advertise with the complex world and the storyline. People who don't know DX yet but do want a complex game would buy it, if the marketing is right.

rhalibus
17th Mar 2008, 09:15
It's interesting how all the companies developing major AAA games have to spend so much time on graphic prowess just so the screenshots can look cool. This marketing decision is indeed analogous to the rise of the visual-effects heavy cornball summer blockbuster a few decades ago. Deus Ex was more like a "Michael Clayton" or "Chinatown"--with a more complex story and approach that wouldn't draw in every demographic.

I would love more independent developers to disregard having to have stellar graphics and just get a low-cost game engine and focus on the gameplay and immerson. Deus Ex has already shown that you don't need mind-blowing visuals to immerse the player completely.

Wouldn't that be great? Instead of another Unreal or Crysis engine some developer could come out with an low-cost engine that encorporated level design, conversation, physics, AI and path manipulation, lipsync, weapon/item creation and complex game-state flags that were all easily programable...The Deus Ex SDK was cool (it used UnrealEd, UnrealScript and ConEdit for the conversation trees) but it was still too difficult to create DX quality levels without a lot of work--I know, because I worked on a DX mod with a full story and multiple-solution path for almost a year and it was very difficult.

With a immersive engine SDK, A lot of DX-style games might come about from independent game developers, in the same way that smaller more complex films have come from independent filmmakers. If the game developers didn't have to reinvent the game medium every time they wanted to make a game (new engine, better graphics, etc.) They could focus on the game itself.

BTW--At the moment, the best fully-completed DX mod by far is Steve Tack's ZODIAC mod--a very well written and produced mod that actually brings back many of the same immersive feelings I got from Deus Ex itself. Anyone looking for the closest thing to an actual DX sequel should check it out...

Kalai
17th Mar 2008, 10:08
Marketing departments list to do for DE3:

#1 Get rid of the ridiculous voice in the trailer.

#2 Try not to set DE3 trailers up like some generic Sci-Fi action movie.

Seriously, I think it sounds like Pablo Francisco in his mocking of "the next blockbuster"

minus0ne
18th Mar 2008, 06:36
Deus Ex was more like a "Michael Clayton" or "Chinatown"--with a more complex story and approach that wouldn't draw in every demographic.
I agree with most of what you say, except that Michael Clayton has a complex story (actually it's very simplified so stupid US audiences can understand it). It's also mostly a rehash of Erin Brokovich with added explosions and tough-walkie-talkie-government-agency-talk for those who tend to fall asleep during movies that lack either.

Sorry about OT rant, just can't stand it when people misidentify good movies because Hollywood's been sitting on their ass for the last decade.

Edx
19th Mar 2008, 13:51
Marketing departments list to do for DE3:

#1 Get rid of the ridiculous voice in the trailer.

I kinda like the ridiculous voice. :) I think its the same voice over guy who did the X-Files movie trailer. They could tone it down a bit though


#2 Try not to set DE3 trailers up like some generic Sci-Fi action movie.

I think there is a way to authentically market Deus Ex 3 for what it is (hopefully going to be) and still make a really cool trailer using the aspects of hollywood style trailer influences. Whether they succeed in doing that is another matter.

dimaf1985
20th Mar 2008, 07:27
Ya i wouldnt necessarily cite Michael Clayton, but if you want to compare industries, there are definitely a lot of parallels in terms of success.

The big box office draws, like Pirates, for example, that rake in multi-millions of dollars don't ever get nominated in any of the major categories at the Oscars. Conversely, movies like Atonement and Good Night and Good Luck, get all kinds of critical acclaim but are viewed by approximately 3 people.

Warner Bros. which is one of the studios that is resposible for these snobby snore-fests, is also one of the most successful studios of all time, because they go out and contract the big commercial successes too, like Harry Potter and the Matrix.

The point is that it is up to the competent minds in the top offices of the studio to be able to please EVERYONE. Just because DX fans want a game that is complex and as far removed from the console design as possible, doesn't mean that they have to start thinking of ways to make compromises in order to boost sales. What they should be doing is dedicating resources to OTHER projects that can be slated to be commercial successes and leaving DX3 to become a critical success, especially among the fans.

IceBallz
20th Mar 2008, 11:47
Deus Ex 3 can be a blockbuster, just to keep the maps and story real open for player to explore. The graphics should be set in "maximum" to be somewhere at down in a over medium quality, to these days top games. Just to keep more power into hold maps in bigger size, to bring more npc's into maps and loading instances to minimal. :scratch:

You got me ?!? *LOL*

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Mar 2008, 11:19
One thing is for sure, if Eidos bombs this one, might as well throw in the towel -- DX will be a fan based mod game.

So much is riding on this game, because of DX2 and the zest to make it a movie quality game. DX1 isn't a movie, it has a story and one seriously lacking in games today. DX1 had levels that were huge, with plenty to explore. My system even then didn't lag playing it. Now I wonder if even a newer Wolfdale/4GB/512MB 8800GTS would be enough.

Don't want DX to be a Crysis, or before that a F.E.A.R. knockoff. It just needs a good story, full of conspiracies with a sound score that we all remember. Heck, I may just replace the sound score of the new game with the old one, as outdated as it can be.

Why can't we just have DX1:Redux?

...sigh...

Blade_hunter
23rd Mar 2008, 21:24
For me the first game was a success because the gameplay is opened, you can adress each situation in different maners, that is the force of the game, some parts of the story can be changed if you intervene in a event and do a specific action or not and let the event happened...
DX 3 must adds some elements which does the success of the first DX and the good elements of DX 2 but with new features and better features than some actual games
like better physics, better interractivity, the major part of the objects of the game are usable (the frying pan in DX 1 has only the function to made noise when you throw it, but if this item is used as a weapon or other uses like frying oil and wait the oil take fire and throw this oil to your ennemies ....)
A better interraction with the NPC's DX 1 has a good interraction, but in DX 3 we can introduce the pick-pocketing for exemple. You can capture an ennemy (if the ennemy is knocked) and wait the momrnent when he's wake up and ask to him some quastions if he know's something or pick only it's items.
the game has a good, varied and tactical weapons, most items have some functions, got an interractive and a good story making the main story changed by your choices, the manner to accomplich each mission, get a good music, sounds, voices, get a character which can made some actions with its body, a great and fun AI ....
and more things.