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Zangetsu101
16th Mar 2008, 07:22
I thought of something a few days ago which doesn't seem to fit in the LOK plotline. At the end of Soul Reaver 2 Kain is said to have two sets of 'memories' an original one and one that we have come to know as what happens in Blood Omen 2.

My question is that since the Younger Kain would have Blood Omen 2 amongst his 'original' memories how is it possible for him to go through what Elder Kain does and still be able to keep true to the timeline? It's not like he can immediately tell Raziel not to resurrect Janos as that is amongst his original memories and if everything stays constant Blood Omen 2 would be his original and he'd have a totally different changed timeline as his 'new' memories right?

...My brain feels like this now :eek:

dragonfly2
16th Mar 2008, 15:01
YEWOW!! That does makes ones brain hurts:eek: :scratch: and welcome back Zang how was the ski trip.

Zangetsu101
17th Mar 2008, 04:13
Ski trip? Oh yeah, haven't gone skiiing in NZ yet, been too busy moving and looking for a job here :D Thanks for the welcome back dragon.

I hope someone can answer my question otherwise it may mean the whole LOK plot dare I say it has a hole in it....unless of course it was gonna be explained in future games.

Rivenmjk
17th Mar 2008, 04:23
:D WB ZANG!!...ok sry totally OT...

well if i remember correctly raziel says he can see kain's memories blooming and dying...so i think some parts would get tossed out of his noggin if ya know what i mean!

Zangetsu101
17th Mar 2008, 05:44
Why is it whenever I join a thread it goes OT :D ? Thanks for the wb Maj.

If I remember correctly he could remember two different timelines, ah well I'll check and come back with links unless somebody else can beat me to it.

The Ancients
17th Mar 2008, 20:15
i can't even understand the question lol:scratch:

The_Hylden
18th Mar 2008, 03:02
Well, to answer as I see it:

The current Kain we have has new memories that were just blooming in his head, in the instant of the paradox. However, his younger self, as the timeline plays out again, will already know this information -- The Hylden, etc.. So, after the paradox, when time loops in on itself again, things will play out slightly different only in that both Raziel and Kain are the Raziel and Kain's that are post those paradoxical changes already, meaning that Kain always now pulls out the blade after always being saved by Raziel earlier. Thus, Kain will already know that he needs to explain to Raziel not to resurrect Janos, and will still do so, but, due to the nature of the drain on Raziel, it will still come too late for Raziel to really process it.

Zangetsu101
18th Mar 2008, 05:50
Nice answer Hylden, I came up with that answer myself I just thought to stay true to the timeline it'd have to play out exactly the same. As has been said before I think in an interview "The timeline hasn't really changed it's playing out exactly as it should when you look at the bigger picture "..well something like that.

The_Hylden
18th Mar 2008, 08:46
Well, you see the "outcome" of the timelines and the events still stay the same under this viewpoint. Nothing is changed, just the subtle instances of the characters in the timeline change, very slighly. Kain and Raziel still do what they did, etc. So, yeah, time really hasn't changed and is still the 12 Monkeys-like diagram they gave us.

Zangetsu101
19th Mar 2008, 06:53
Thanks Hylden really cleared that up for me. :D

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
20th Mar 2008, 15:27
Something I have just thought of in that scene (from SR2).

Raziel is being absorbed into the Soul Reaver as his destiny dictates, and Kain comes over and removes it from him.

I thought it was Raziel that had free will? If so, how could Kain remove it? Wasn't Raziel meant to furfil his destiny right then and there, which is why the timeline got shifted when this destiny was postponed?

Also, the way I see it, the memories were hidden in the Elder Kain, and only brought back when the timeline is broken. Kind of like eating a delicous meal, and finding out the recipe for how it is cooked, you suddenly go "My God, the Parsley! that was the secret ingredient!".

NB: my explaination may be effected by my not having had lunch yet :D

dragonfly2
21st Mar 2008, 04:09
I believe that some how Moebutt and EG had some how arranged it so that it would continue in a vicious loop for Kain and Raziel so at first Raz didn't have free will until he refused to kill Kain at the Sarafan stong hold. So not Killing Kain alowed for Kain to be there to pull out the sword and prolong Raziels journey to find his true purpose and for Kain to fullfill his . Hope that made some sence.;)

dumah's wraith
22nd Mar 2008, 21:15
If he didn't have free will, how could he refuse to kill kain?

Zangetsu101
28th Mar 2008, 08:35
Cuz he had free will.

Pauldron
13th Apr 2008, 20:56
I think it mostly has to do with Kain realizing the causal relations.

In Timeline A, BO2 didn't happen, so Kain never even met Janos. In timeline B, BO2 happened, kain did meet Janos, but didn't know Raziel was the one who rezed him. Only when Kain had both sets of memories did he even suspect Raziel was the cause of Janos' Resurrection.

Kazame
4th May 2008, 15:13
I can explain Kain's ability to change fate, and how he is able to do it like Raziel does. But it takes a bit of explaining, so to fully understand it you're going to have to read my very very long post. lol Okay here goes:




If you think about it, Kain himself CANNOT change history -- not without raziel's help. Why? Well you've said it above: Only Raziel has free will - Kain does not. Whatever it is kain might plan to do, moebius will know before KAIN does HIMSELF. It is RAZIEL'S actions that are shrouded from moebius' omniscience. It is RAZIEL who changed the timeline in william's chapel in sr2, when he spared kain from death. Kain changing history at the stronghold (by pulling the reaver out of raziel and sparing him) was probably forseen by moebius the second fate decided it to be so. It would really just take one shot from moebius' staff to stop kain in his tracks, but I suspect moebius allowed kain to do what he wanted to do, because moebius wanted kain dead, and needed raziel alive to do it. If raziel got sucked into the reaver, Kain would remain alive and would probably wreak havoc on EG. That is why moebius originally planned to have kain killed BEFORE raziel gets sucked into the reaver, but because raziel failed to kill him, his death TOO had to be posponed so that he'd have another chance at killing Kain, which happens in defiance (the fight between the two). So in that case, Kain did not have the upper hand at changing fate when he sparred raziel's life at sr2's end: moebius knew of kain's plans and simply sat idle and let it happen. Had kain planned to let raziel get sucked into the reaver, I imagine moebius would try to manipulate raziel to stay away from janos' retreat or something to that effect, so that he would not charge towards the stronghold for revenge over Janos' death. (Actually, that's probably why moebius sent raziel to the future right after he sparred Kain.. moebius probably needed to go check what Kain's plans were, and once he found out that Kain wanted to spare raziel's life as well, he allowed Raziel passage back in-time and into Janos' retreat.)

Now I know this didn't exactly yet clarify your question as to how Kain changes history, so let me clarify: TECHNICALLE, Kain CAN change history bu in a different way than raziel.

All kain, or anyone, needs to do to change history is bring two incarnations of the soul reaver (or raziel's soul) together. because raziel has free will, bringing two essences of him causes the distortion needed to change history. Two of the same items in the same place, if they are NOT raziel's soul, cannot create a distortion (that is why no distortion took place when younger kain met janos in BO2 and two incarnations of the heart of darkness met - -the heart of darkness, or the entity which it originated from -janos- does not possess free will). So it can't be just any two of the same items brought together.. those items need to possess free will.

Now, let me clarify a little bit. There are not ONE thing but a total of TWO things that have free will. Raziel in his tattered bodily form, the blue-green goblin we so love to love, and another: Raziel's trapped soul - the reaver blade. It has been stated by Amy Hennig that although the Wraith blade IS in fact another raziel, it is NOT the same thing as the bodily raziel. Once his spirit was sucked into the blood reaver, the transformation his soul went under changed him into a different entity entirely (but his free will remained). This is why raziel does not create a temporal distortion wherever he goes: yes the wraithblade is raziel as well but they are DIFFERENT. To create a temporal distortion, you must bring either two BODILY raziels together, or two SPIRIT raziels together.. any combination of the two does not justify a distortion. And thus far, we have only seen the spirit raziels come together to change fate, we've never seen two bodily raziels.

Anyway, therefore all one needs to do is bring together 2 souls of raziel together in time and space. So theoretically, kain CAN change history. he has done so in BO1 by killing william. The thing to note here is that, if Kain is going to change history, moebius and EG are going to know about it - even before Kain himself does. And therefore, if it is not suited to moebius' benefit, he will not allow it to happen. Moebius WANTED william's death in the new history, so he allowed kain to do it -- no, he MANIPULATED kain to do it.. Just as, -gasp- he MIGHT have manipulated kain to save raziel in sr2 by making him believe yadda yadda yadda through some ancient ruins and pictures on the walls etc etc.

ANYWAY, the difference between Raziel changing history, is that he can do it without moebius forseeing it. This is what gives him the edge. If you notice, in the WHOLE legacy of kain story, only RAZIEL commits acts that surprise and appaul moe and EG. A little exception is Kain slaughtering one of EG's eyes at the end of Defiance, but that is because their omniscience ended beyond the demon dimension, where we first see that kain has not died once being thrown into it in defiance. Raziel has the power of changing history beyond the understanding of moebius and EG, and all Kain can do, is give raziel lectures and try to get him to understand his situation and, effectively, counter-manipulate him against moebius and EG.

An interesting question that derives from all of this, however, is this: with Raziel dead, Kain is left to himself to change history. And not gifted with the power of free-will, Elder God can see exactly what he plans to do.. No, EG can see what Kain WILL inevitably do. Elder God now KNOWS whether he will perish or whether Kain will.

Sarxis
3rd Feb 2009, 03:32
The thing I wonder is why there was no paradox event when Kain meets up with Janos.. there are two Hearts of Darkness present at that moment in BO2.

Kazame
19th Mar 2009, 19:44
sigh, read the post above yours --_--

RainaAudron
20th Mar 2009, 09:02
two Heart of Darkness can never create a paradox. Only two soul devouring souls aka wraithblade and wb inside the Soul Reaver, paradox occurs because when they try to devour each other or Raziel himself.

DarkDragonsLair
6th Jul 2009, 19:50
A related Question/statement:

If, after Defiance, Moebius is deceased physically and spiritually, does this mean that Elder God can no longer use Moe's Streaming abilties to foresee Kain's actions? Or were Moby's talents linked to ol' tentacle-puss in some way? (forgive me if this one's obvious, I haven't replayed LoK in a wee while!)

RainaAudron
7th Jul 2009, 08:03
If, after Defiance, Moebius is deceased physically and spiritually, does this mean that Elder God can no longer use Moe's Streaming abilties to foresee Kain's actions? Or were Moby's talents linked to ol' tentacle-puss in some way?

Moebius had lost his powers as a Time Guardian when he was first killed by young Kain.

dumah's wraith
8th Jul 2009, 20:15
Anyone can foresee the future if they look into Chronoplast portals. But since EG is 'the hub of the wheel', he wrote Kain's destiny, he knows what can happen. If Kain gained free will at the end of Defiance, then Eg knows what Kain MIGHT do, but not what he will decide to do.